Hayden: [00:00:00] I'm really excited to be doing my first interview on leadership and well being with Hayden Fricke. My first guest is Oliver Horne. So let me just take a moment to tell you a little bit about Oliver. Oliver Horne is the CEO and Managing Director of Nutra Organics. A [00:01:00] pure whole foods family nutrition business based up in the beautiful northern coast of northern New South Wales.
He's an incredibly energetic leader with more than 25 years of global experience in premium FMCG businesses. Originally from Germany, Oliver has lived and worked in many parts of the world including various parts of Europe, USA, New Zealand and Australia. Prior to his current role, Oliver was the CEO of Elixinol Wellness, an Australian based global business that focused on bringing hemp derived CBD wellness products to consumers.
He'd led this business during the global pandemic. And prior to that, Oliver was the CEO of Swiss Wellness, Australia's most recognised brand for wellness products. He previously held roles at Treasury Wine Estate in the UK, the Middle East and Africa. And prior to that, he held marketing roles at Foster's and L'Oreal.
As you can see, Oliver is truly a global citizen with broad, global thinking and [00:02:00] innovative ideas about work and wellbeing collected over many years. He is passionate about creating thriving businesses where people flourish and become the best version of themselves. He aims to balance this with creating purpose led businesses that stand out through their high performance cultures.
And as a friend as well, Oliver is truly an inspiration, and he certainly walks the talk in real life. Oliver is married to Sue, and they have two young and boisterous boys, aged seven and nine, Theo and Otto. So, with that, I'm really looking forward to the interview. Welcome, Oliver. Well, hello and welcome to the first podcast interview, on leadership and wellbeing with Hayden Fricke. And I'd love to welcome to the screen, Oliver Horne. Welcome Oliver.
Oliver: Hayden, um, so good to see you and thank you very much for making me your inaugural [00:03:00] guest. I'm really privileged to be here. Thank You.
Hayden: Now worries at all. Yes. And as a, uh, as a friend as well as a work colleague, I'm really excited for this conversation to be our first one as well. So I'm going to start by going right back to when I first met you, which, uh, to prepare for this podcast, I looked at my notes and it was back in 2018 when we had our first coaching session.
And I remember, it was in your magnificent office when you were the CEO of Swiss, and it was at the Swiss Australia headquarters. We had a lot in common. We both loved exercising and we lived a full life. And, uh, I remember at the end of the first coaching session, you said to me, you always have these coaching sessions on a couch?
And I said, yes, and we chatted about it and we ended up agreeing that our next coaching session would be whilst riding a bike and then having a breakfast together afterwards, a nice healthy breakfast, of course, afterwards. And that actually changed my thinking about coaching and whether or not you needed to do them in such a formal setting and [00:04:00] how that change in setting can actually even change the dynamic between two people. And so I love the fact that whilst I was your coach, I was learning so much from you in relation to health and wellbeing and coaching and the connection between leadership and wellbeing. So I guess my first question is a relatively simple one to you is, firstly, do you remember that, that first coaching session?
And can you tell me a bit more about your thinking and philosophy about the connection between the mind and the body?
Oliver: Yeah, I remember it very, very vividly. I remember being very reluctant initially to coaching. I thought, oh, it's just another busy thing in my day. And yeah, how does it add value? Because I had a rushed schedule anyway. And then you were coming in. I remember you were wearing a suit. I wasn't definitely wasn't wearing a suit at the time, and I remember that very vividly and, it just catapulted me back on almost being interviewed, being on the spot, like there's a coach coming in, you know, wanted to get under the skin deep and meaningful and almost felt like a bit exposed in that scenario, particularly as you [00:05:00] were sitting on this big sofas and was quite, you know, you were in a suit and I felt it was just a bit too formal and Swiss being such a health environment, you know, we had a lot of movement opportunities in mind and, you know, opportunities at the workplace and, thought I don't function really well. If I sit down, you know, and just have a, have a chat, as a matter of fact, I'm terrible at having phone conversations.
Like whenever you try to sit me down and have a phone conversation, I'm just absolutely useless. and I guess what I've learned over time is, um, that I've done a lot of my exercise in a social setting being part of a group. And, um, all of a sudden conversations start to happen because you share a bonding moment, right?
It's actually not... The interview or the coaching moment that is really the top priority here. It's sharing a bonding moment off of going for a run, going for a bike ride. And what happens in your head is your senses are heightened because you have to navigate an environment not crushing against the tree, looking out where your partner is running.
You have to take a turn. You have to signal to each other [00:06:00] and what that means. Your whole focus is not on the conversation. And that means you are probably more authentic and more free flowing in your conversation because you don't override it. You don't control it, right? Because your mind and senses are navigating in the environment that you're sharing a bonding moment.
So you have much deeper proximity with your partner as a consequence and I, I think your conversation becomes less managed or more spontaneous as a result. And, and I think that was really resonated with me. Um, when we started coaching, I just wanted to be. Less controlled because I tend to be quite controlling personality and sitting opposite each other just wasn't giving me the opportunity to be less controlled.
I fell back into my CEO mindset on controlling the narrative. So I think that's something that I've, you know, taken through my, my journey. It's like movement for me is a way to, you know, letting go of the narrative of sharing a bonding moment. But then there's also a lot of science and. Um, the ability to retain information is just, much stronger when you are, when [00:07:00] you're moving around, when you're moving about.
And last but not least, and super important, like who doesn't like to go for a walk or bike ride? It's like, it's just a good feeling. And I think, you know, it trains you to want to have more good feelings and then a coaching conversation becomes even more positive and you want to have more of a coaching conversation if you can combine it with exercise.
So it ticks all the boxes, really.
Hayden: It's fascinating, Oliver, listening to you, uh, reflecting back on it, you know, there's so many positives to coaching sessions whilst moving, but the one thing that did jump into my mind at the time was, gee, how am I going to take my coaching notes on my laptop while I'm riding a bike with you? But anyway, we worked that out as well.
Oliver: And it was. And I remember that, you know, out of that came something really beautiful over time that we had the active CEO group as well. we created this little group of like minded CEOs who are going through similar situations, but you're bonded over exercise. And remember, we're different kind of people going swimming, bike riding, running, having a great breakfast after and the [00:08:00] conversations were just flowing. So I love that you've run with it at the time.
Hayden: Yeah, fantastic. And I cringe when I think that I used to be in such a Uh, rather than a more relaxed environment. Uh, it's interesting COVID's changed us. I don't think I've worn a suit for a very long time. So, uh, yes, even the appropriateness of what you're wearing to set up a relaxed environment is fascinating. Actually one more reflection before we move on. The other one too is even thinking I've got three kids and I know you've got two young boys. You would never sit down and talk to your boys, or your girls for that matter, face to face, just like this in a stuffy way. The best way to have a conversation with your kids is to be doing something, you know, whilst going for a drive and looking ahead rather than looking across at each other.
And so, you know, if it's good enough to work with your kids, it's even similar to work with, uh, in a corporate setting.
Oliver: I think that's, that's so true and it really reflects, you said, mentioned, like, how do we create a comfortable environment to have open conversations and being vulnerable, right? And the test of being in a comfortable environment is, [00:09:00] can you endure a moment of silence? Like, if you're opposite each other on the table and face 30 second silence, boy, that would terribly awkward, right? but if you go for a run or for a bike ride. It's like a 30 second, two minutes, three minutes silence doesn't really matter. Yeah. And I think it talks to that you feel safe because you don't have to fill the void with a stupid sentence that is actually quite meaningless. And so what you actually say becomes less, but probably more meaningful in a way.
Hayden: Spot on, I hadn't thought about it that way. And I think one of the key roles of a coach or a counsellor is to make the person you're coaching feel safe to open up, to be vulnerable and to be honest and transparent and creating that environment is a key factor in then doing that. Let's move on from that first area.
So when I first met you, as I said earlier, you were the CEO of Swiss Wellness. It was your first role as the CEO at the time. It was a big role and I thought you were doing a great job and in [00:10:00] fact you've always been an inspiring human being to me right from that very first moment. However, despite this, you weren't perfect and you had a lot to learn.
And as you said, you were a bit uncomfortable about what this coaching was, was going to be having said that, I found immediately that you were extremely open to coaching. You were fully prepared to commit to difficult, uncomfortable conversations. I, and I loved this about you then and I still do now.
we immediately had a, a very deep rapport and, um, we had some deep conversations going right back to your childhood even. I shared some of my stories as well from childhood. We did a 360 degree feedback process and got lots of feedback. Some of that very uncomfortable as well, but very constructive.
And we began working on a number of crucial goals together. One of those goals was really relating to sort of, uh, your leadership and business performance. And the other one was about your wellbeing in terms of leadership side of things. You had a big challenge in understanding your own leadership purpose and part of that was letting go of being the expert, because prior to that, you'd been [00:11:00] an expert coming up through marketing. you were the subject matter expert, and you had to learn to lead through empowering others, and finding a way to get the best out of them, rather than you being the smartest one in the room. You also had some separate challenges of managing some difficult stakeholders in China. At the time, you were owned by H& H, uh, and, uh, you know, the leadership style of your boss in China was in incredibly unaligned to our views of what good leadership is within a Western context. So I'd like to take a little while to explore both of those.
So if we just go to the first one, in terms of what you learned about your leadership, you know, how challenging is it to let go of being the expert, and truly lead in a broader way, in a way that is empowering others?
Oliver: So that's been, huge journey for me because if you asked, people have been very close to me in the past, I would think. you know, I was quite controlling, very intense, and, um, I would actually classify myself as an, insecure overachiever, typical profile [00:12:00] of an insecure overachiever, who is there to please and to get ahead in his career and never be called out, really without having the answers.
And that's what you mentioned to me, like I was always prepared to coaching. And that's for me the need, I don't want to be out. You know, this insecurity not being meeting expectations. and that's been a trauma that I've taken from my childhood. Growing up in an environment where I didn't feel psychologically safe.
And, you know, I had to seek a recognition and award, and I guess for lack of a better word, love, by achieving, by successes, by creating successes, because I wasn't good enough, I felt probably. And that, that has resonated through my, my time that I felt I'm not good enough. So let my position, my role of authority, my successes.
So in sports, I was always very competitive. at work I was. trying to have the last word and be right. and, I've been, you know, through our coaching, doing a lot of reflection on where that comes from. And for me, it [00:13:00] was really getting back to understanding what's driving that need, which is really my insecurities that's been driving that.
and understanding that I needed to put myself in an environment where I feel secure and psychologically secure environment where I can feel. That I'm good enough. and so there's a few things which, you know, I've done and really embrace and a lot of things were about letting go of bad habits.
And one of the bad habits was the need to compare with others. you know, for example, I, I'm completely off social media. Um, in the days in Swiss, you know, I would be on social media all the time on LinkedIn, posting posts, looking at the likes and clicks and loves that I got in the virtual environment.
and then I would get little shots off endorphin and, you know, happiness out of that. And I'm completely off that because I don't need that anymore to feel complete in a way. And so this need for letting go, uh, this ability to now let go and not being right is basically coming out of me getting [00:14:00] my energy and my self worth out of being a great dad.
going to work and doing a compartmentalised job from nine to five, um, loving going to work, finding that right environment, which really stimulates me, but then coming home, playing the role as a father, a husband, and then also, you know, focusing much more of my time on creating a social network that supports me and feels me, makes me feel appreciated.
So all of a sudden, you know, my world has shifted over the last three, four or five years. From. Work absorbing me and really fueling this fire of insecurity, which was created by an environment that didn't make me feel safe. You know, to now having multiple environments that I navigate in that are feeding really my own sense of self and the feeling of self worth and now, you know, I think the biggest advice I can give anybody is once you let go of the need to be right, having the last word or the first word in conversation or the biggest share of voice. life becomes so much more [00:15:00] relaxed. and you remember you giving me a book about, um, it was called change your thinking and it was a wonderful book.
Um, and I remember we had a coaching conversation, um, and it was about, I think I replayed the situation where I was really controlling at home with Sue, my wife, and wanted to have certain things a certain way. Um, when I get home and you said, actually, you need to rethink your approach that it's not about what should be, but you have a preference for things to be, but it's only a preference.
It doesn't have to be, because you're not the guy who makes the rules. Guess what? And that was for me a key moment out of that book, Change Your Thinking, where I said, no, actually I just have preferences and they don't need to be met. There's nobody who tells you that that is a way to do it. It's just I have a personal preference and letting go of that preference.
Let's go of stress and the right of, you know, the, the need to being right. And so I've completely parked that and I'm now completely comfortable to not being right, not having the answer and admitting that I don't know the answer. Or [00:16:00] as a matter of fact, I stuffed up. That was my bad decision that led to this.
And can we all please have a laugh about that? And so it's an incredible amount of freedom that that your life gives you when you let go.
Hayden: Wow, Oliver, just listening to you know, it's so incredible that, you know, five or so years later, even no doubt the listeners will be able to hear how, how far you've come just in the way you've even explained all of that. There's a number of things from what you said, I'd like to just. First, I should say, for those interested, the book is called Change your Thinking, by Sarah Edelman.
And it's probably the best book on cognitive psychology that I know of and I have certainly given it to a number of people that I coach. It's the simplest way of understanding. how our thinking affects your feeling and if we want to change the way we feel about something we need to change thoughts and certainly shoulds and musts and that sort of template we have, that schemata we have in our head of the way the world should be is a key thing to realise that we've just made that up and we can change that, if we want to, and it requires a [00:17:00] fair bit of work which you obviously did and to even remember that now five years later is, is fantastic.
There's something in particular I thought was worth picking up on that I think is a key thing is a lot of people that I coach, particularly CEOs, whether they're male or female are obviously incredibly successful. One of the challenges is to learn to decouple your own, uh, success from your self worth.
You know, Brené Brown has done a lot of work, uh, around self worth and vulnerability. And so you spoke about this, uh, there. And I think that's the key to... overcome your insecurities you need to be able to somehow your successes That's not you and from from you as a person worth Can you just talk to me about a little bit about that and what you had to do to be able learn to do that?
Oliver: Yeah, and, and, and boy, I think every senior exec has a fork in the road where you go deeper into your job for more, more money, more salaries, a higher salary, more work, more [00:18:00] stress. And you know what? It feels the natural thing to do. And it absorbs you. And guess what? the things that really matter to you, which are the things that can't be taken away, which is family, friends.
Those things become less of a contributor to your overall daily life. Right? And it's really challenging for a CEO who are usually motivated by success and achievement to at that fork of the road, say, no, I'm choosing life with my family. I'm choosing spare time. And, because a lot of times the recognition, the status that they get is so much more.
Tempting in their careers, right? and here comes a big pitfall. Your career will end. At some stage, the board, your bosses will take the view that you're not the guy anymore. And at that moment in time, 80 percent of your personality or what you deem your personality can be just, yeah, taken away from you because you've been the workaholic, yeah, that hasn't created a second, third, and fourth stream of [00:19:00] energy that feeds you every day.
And I think for me, it was that realisation that work, if it takes too much of your time every day and is too consuming, it's like a vortex, a black hole that doesn't allow anything else to flourish. It's like that big tree that overshadows all the small trees that want to grow because it sucks up all the light, all the rain.
and for me, it was like I needed to find three or four trees that I can stand under and be protected from rather than the one that dominates it all. and so this decoupling process is basically, I'm now really grateful for being put in a very uncomfortable situation at Swiss. We had very jarring moments because my value system wasn't aligned, um, with some of my senior leaders.
And it really pushed me to reconsider what really matters to me and thankfully I had lots of help, you know, to make, make a good decision and see the positive into decoupling. But decoupling also meant for me stepping down and [00:20:00] taming my ambitions. Because guess what? If you are super ambitious in your career, that means you shortchange other parts and you become naive.
Um, all of a sudden to think that your success and you as a person, depends on your career. And so I think you need to tame your ambition and actually build your ambition around things that are much more meaningful. In life, which are human connection, time with yourself and being comfortable being alone or being with your family and not feeling that you have to be productive all the time.
And it's an ongoing process, I think, because I think we are all tempted by progress and careers and paychecks and all the beautiful things that sometimes the corporate world can offer you. But it's a, it's a very short lived moment. It's
Hayden: Wow, love what you're saying there. Oh, there's probably two main things that stand out that I just want to reflect on. And then one last question on this, this area. first thing that sort of jumped out at me that I think was really poignant is that, at some point, it [00:21:00] will come when, your career, your corporate career will end, whether it's when you're 40, 50, 60, 70 or 80 at some point, uh, whether you choose it or someone else pulls that rug from you.
And then at that moment, what is your, your worth, Does your worth go downhill from there? So I think you said something to that effect, and I think that's just incredibly powerful. and the other one that sort of sits out at me, maybe these aren't your words, but it's the idea of building like a portfolio life, right?
Building a life. of meaningful things, family, friends, health, uh, work, you know, those sorts of things. And, and if you build a number of pillars, I think you said you talked about trees or whatever the analogy is, then work is only one of the things that give you self worth and happiness. And I think that's another one that's really important for leaders to, uh, to reflect on as well is, is what is your life made up of?
And it's not just work. What are the other pillars? That give you meaning and purpose in life. Um, so that, that were two things that stood out to me.[00:22:00]
Oliver: Then that's it. Just give you an example of how this, you know, the three pillars of portfolio, work week has changed for me. It's like before I would leave the house at seven o'clock, go to Swiss, cycle to Swiss and would be there till six, seven o'clock in the evening. And at home I would come home.
I would be stressed. you know, I would be still checking my phone all the time. and then I would go to bed with the family after dinner. The kids were usually to bed already. And I would, you know, I have a glass of wine with my wife and go to bed now. Yeah, in the mornings I get up at five o'clock.
I join my group exercise session at 5. 30 for an hour. Then I go for a quick run afterwards. Have quality time with the kids. I drop them off at school. You know, we have a good hour, hour and a half, sometimes two hours with the kids. I drop them off at 8. 39. I go to work. I finish work between four and five o'clock.
No emails afterwards. No calls usually. And then in the afternoon at five o'clock, I have quality time. I bring the kids to soccer. And I joined the soccer team and coach and, you know, facilitate, you know, sessions there. and then I come home and we have a lovely family [00:23:00] dinner. And all of a sudden, my day has four dimensions to it.
And it's probably a really good manifestation of what you said, a portfolio career. It's actually, if people just think in portfolio days, like, how did your day look? And, you know, how many elements in that day fed you today? And that is actually as simple as you need to put sometimes the lens on, I reckon. Like how was your day? I
Hayden: I love that story the difference in between your day when you were CEO of Swiss and now you're CEO of Nutra Organics and, uh, what a difference there. And I think. Uh, you made me think about B. J. Fogg who's written a book called Tiny Habits and it comes down to the tiny habits that you do each day and I think a nice way of thinking about that is what's a typical day for you, and is it more like the second or the first example that you gave there?
That's a good way of thinking about it. Hey, one more question on this topic is linking it back to leadership, okay? So, You had to learn to let go of being the expert, and part of that was all around your [00:24:00] self worth, and we talked about that, and those other examples there, how do you think, if you reflect back, did that actually help you be a, a different and better sort of leader, and what was, what was the effect of that on the people you led as well?
Oliver: I think, well, it definitely made me a better leader. And the reason why that was my life became easier. I became less stressed because I didn't feel I need to own the answer. And it became much more about creating. a strong collective team where no ego is worth more than anybody else's and creating a collective with a diversity of thinking that doesn't fall into a trap of echo chambers and group think, and then just harness the best ideas that come out.
And so I really, since then, ever since created teams, which have, which are absent of ego, not absent of people who feel confident about who they are, but not needing to shine on at the cost of others. And once I realised how beautiful that is, when you can [00:25:00] sit in a room full of talented people and just listen and then facilitate the conversation and pick the best ideas.
And you become almost like a conductor in orchestra, rather than the soloist, that is making all the noise. and beautiful things happen. I think arguably probably, the reason why we are so successful the current company with Nutra organics is because I've harnessed that ability to not being Any better, different, have a bigger share of voice or the right to have the right answer than anybody else and the creativity that nurtures the psychological safety that we have, at the workplace here is just fostering healthy conversations and people who go home and feel rewarded and not stressed and, yeah, it's made me a very, very different leader, but it had to come from me feeling secure.
And the feeling of security and safety comes also from the environment that I've chosen to operate in. When I joined this team here, I spent a lot of [00:26:00] time and did my diligence on my stakeholders and would they make me feel safe and can I work with them? And I think that's underestimated a lot of times.
A lot of times when we choose a career path, it's about the opportunities that it offers. But I think interviewing your stakeholders for a sense of, do they make me feel valued and secure? And do you think, do you understand them really? And what makes them tick? That's become for me a key decisive factor in choosing, you know, making career choices.
Hayden: Wow, so much in what you've said there all. I think, um, couple of lessons for me in that are certainly when we started on a leadership journey, when we combined wellbeing and leadership and we've started changing your leadership from being the expert to a more empowering leader, we then flick to what was stopping you from doing that.
And some of the stresses that were caused by your style, you're much less stressed. Your wellbeing is enhanced and clearly you were and are a better leader as well. So kind of like everyone wins when you change that style. Tell me, I'd like to just change gears a little bit. The second question I posed to [00:27:00] you, uh, in terms of what we worked on was not leadership, but actually managing upwards in a global company and a globally diverse culture.
And we, we talked about that a lot the time in terms of the, you know, Western environment and what was expected versus a Chinese environment, which are very different. I'm interested, what did you learn about that? And how'd you learn to manage upwards in such a challenging and culturally diverse environment?
Oliver: Yeah. Um, in preparation, you know, for our conversation today, I reflected about That question in particular, and I had the huge privilege and the opportunity to live and work in eight countries. Um, and I've done it on my list. Like, okay, why, you know, what did I learn about leadership in different cultural environments?
And, um, I grew up in Germany, moved over to the Netherlands. I had my first job, you know, in the Netherlands. I worked in, in the Middle East, in, in Lebanon. I worked in, uh, Spain. I worked in London, Australia, New Zealand, [00:28:00] um, Germany, of course. And so I had this real great privilege of not only working different cultural environments, but learning the language, so I speak multiple languages as well.
And I've been confronted every time in my personal life or in my career about situations that I couldn't decipher, because I just didn't understand the cultural value system that I was operating in. But what it taught me is that, there is no right or wrong. And that judgement is the worst thing that you can do in that situation.
The best thing you can do in any cultural environment that is alien to you is suspending judgement and showing a great degree of curiosity and trying to understand why somebody behaves the way they behave. And so, for me, the biggest, unlocker, unblocker for operating in a, in this case, a Chinese environment is to stop judging and pause judgement because a behaviour that I would find maybe as irritating, confronting, or even as an offensive [00:29:00] behaviour in a different culture is exactly not that.
It might be a completely arbitrary behaviour that in different cultures has no meaning whatsoever. But I just overreacted and I became really emotional about it. And by suspending judgement, you suspend overreacting aroused uh, you know, and interpret the situation in a wrong, in a wrong way. So suspending my judgement really helped me then to deal with facts and deal in facts and really making sure I communicate clear, concise and confidently, you know, and not judge the individual's behaviours. The other thing that was really for me, really important, and I think it's becoming so much more important, um, these days in a digital world is Investing in strong professional relationships, and you actually, I remember in our coaching journey, you know, emphasise strong professional relationships a lot.
Understanding the individual helps you understanding the cultural dynamic that everybody works in, helps you understanding how they [00:30:00] lead you or how they defer to you. and spending time in market, in China, you know, flying over and immersing myself in the culture, it's been really an absolute, you know, a wonderful thing to do and it makes you feel so alien.
I remember, you know, going to company functions where we had to display certain behaviours and it was just alien to me and awkward to me, but you just do it because it's part of showing respect for people's culture, even though it's it's alien to you. So I think that's really important.
Don't think your culture is the right culture. Don't measure your culture and make it the be all and end all.
Hayden: Wow, what a fantastically, uh, broad and wonderful answer. I'll, um, a couple of things from that that just jump out at me. One is about, well, firstly, that you, uh, I was going to say this, but, uh, eight different, uh, countries that you've lived in, you are truly a global citizen. And yet you still had challenges with understanding the Chinese, [00:31:00] uh, culture and how different that was.
But key is, uh, one of the keys from what you said is about that word judgement, right? Which goes back to cognitive psychology and, you know, our views of the way the world should be, that it should be like this, and different cultures have different views of the way the world should be.
So learning to, to suspend your judgement. Now that links back into the concept of safety and psychological safety. A lot of the work that, um, has been done by Amy Edmondson and colleagues around creating a safe environment. And one of the factors is non judgmental. You know, an open mindedness, and so that, you know, some really strong connections between psychological safety and not being non judgmental.
And there's an overlap, too, between the concept of psychological safety and trust. And I know that, again, Breno Brown's got a model of trust called braving, and being non judgmental is one of those aspects. and, uh, another one that's interesting in terms of building relationships is, uh, Stephen Covey, son of the original Stephen Covey, I think it's Stephen [00:32:00] R. Covey, wrote a book called The Speed of Trust, and how, once you have trust, And you can get things done really fast and so kind of all of those things jumped into my mind about that. And so obviously business is about getting things done and achieving things. But you can't achieve it unless you've got trust.
And you can't get, build trust if you're judgmental. There's a really interesting connection between some of those concepts that you're speaking
about.
Oliver: And I love to pick up on two of those, you know, trust great speed at the workplace, um, where we are now here, we don't do emails. Like we make a decision and nobody needs to do a follow up email. It's like, no, we made the decision. We were all in a room. We all heard it. Let's move on with it. Yeah.
And this trust, you're right. It's like de complexifying, if that is a word. any work, environment, you know, absolutely true. The other one I just wanted to, um, pick on one of the books that shaped me greatly that I read during my studies, and that was in the Netherlands.
It was called Understanding Global Cultures [00:33:00] by Martin Gannon. And it had an overview of 34 cultures in roughly 14, 15, 16 pages, each of those cultures. And they were described in metaphors. And every time I now go into a cultural setting, I recall what metaphor was related to that specific culture.
And in the German, um, the metaphor for Germans was that of an orchestra, and the orchestra is basically full of specialists, in Germany we have a lot of specialisation in the technology sector and so forth. And so lots of specialists are super good at certain things and almost artistic in what they do.
But they're very niche and they're very specialised. But then they all like to follow one conductor who gives the common theme of the music and the tune. And that's the Germans work towards that. They love order, they love being directed and it's just a little example how I, yeah, now see a lot of those cultures in different metaphors that are easy to recall and help me then to navigate that environment because I understand the [00:34:00] cultural a dynamic
Hayden: Tell me, um, I need a couple of questions before we begin to wrap up. But, um, I'm interested, this is a really amazing success story and that's why I was very keen to have you on this podcast. Uh, a lot of people do ask me, what are the factors that make somebody coachable?
Someone successful as a coach? because there's been many people. Well, I shouldn't say many, but some that I've coached that haven't had such amazing journeys as you. One of the things I often talk about is the ability to be vulnerable with me. I try to create a safe place for people to be vulnerable.
Some people don't have the courage to actually put their mask down and open up and vulnerable. You were able to do that despite wanting to be right, despite not wanting to be the expert. It was one of the things you had to learn to let go of. So what advice do you have for anyone else, any leader out there that, about courage, when they're, when they're struggling, when they're scared to put their guard down. Have you got any advice for others about [00:35:00] what helped you to actually take your mask off and be human and real and vulnerable?
Oliver: I think this is a very hard one. Um, I think lot of it probably has to do with pain somewhere in your life, and wanting it enough to be better. I think everybody has trauma in their life and pain somewhere in their life. And if you choose to embrace it and choose to be vulnerable, you can deal with it.
And for me, the stress, the stress, the pain point of my life was certainly the relationship at home with my wife, where I wasn't the greatest person, at times, and I'm still working on that. And, um, also at work, you know, where I just was an overzealous, overbearing leader at times and a controlling leader.
And I think waking up to that pain and working with it, it's, it's a key identifying that. And I think, I'm not sure why, you know, I'm more vulnerable maybe than, than some of the other clients. I can't really comment on that. but,[00:36:00] I think it's just from a, from a real big drive from wanting to be a better person and if you don't want it, you're not going to be vulnerable.
And so it's really, you know, find your why. I know it sounds so corny and, you know, I wish I had a better answer that, but it's really that, I reckon.
Hayden: I think you're right, I think finding your why, understanding you want to change. and that can take many months or years. It's not just a one session and you're done. I think for you to reflecting back on what you've said and what I know about you because of your drive to succeed, your drive to succeed was not only as a business person, you know, you worked in health and wellbeing, you worked at Swiss, that was all about wellness.
So I think that you had a drive to be a better person as well as being a successful business person and through our coaching sessions I think that drive to improve yourself meant that you had to face up to some of those things that you knew were causing you some [00:37:00] pain as you say and that drive sort of forced you to be uncomfortable because you wanted to get better and that was your why to get better terms of well being and you're always were great on physical well being, but it was probably the mental well being and emotional well being and some of those other areas that you wanted to get better at, and to match your physical well being.
So, I think your drive to get better as a human being drove you to uh, be okay with the discomfort.
Oliver: I think that's right. And, I think the role that you played as a coach and remember, our people and culture manager director at the time, she worded me out before meeting you and said, look, this is as much as about you choosing your coach as, as about the engagement itself. And so I think we all need help.
Nobody should be foolish to think they don't. But then choose the person wisely that you seek help from and, you know, being, you know, you're not afraid to change your coach or your mentor, it's also the other thing, because I think we all have it in us being vulnerable, if you're given [00:38:00] the right person next to you. And so I think that's, that's as much as a credit to you as a coach to create an environment really and the asking the difficult questions.
Hayden: Thank you. I felt, uh, a good connection with you despite me being in a suit for that first time.
Oliver: Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Don't ever, don't ever do it again.
Hayden: Look, I think that's probably a really nice place to wrap up and finish the conversation. So I'll thank you very much for sharing so openly with the story and the journey. Uh, that you've been on. Hopefully the listeners found that fascinating and insightful in terms of both lessons around leadership and lessons around wellbeing.
So thank you very much.
Oliver: Thank you very much, Hayden. And, look, I'm, this is a very, a reflection of our long relationship and it's been great to walk down memory lane and relive the last five, six years. And, um, I'm looking forward to the next six as well. So thanks for being in my life and thanks continuing to coach me.
Hayden: Fantastic. Thanks Ol. [00:39:00]
