Hayden: [00:00:00]
Hello and welcome to my podcast, Leadership and Wellbeing by Hayden Fricke. Today, my guest is Nick Yap. Nick is the CEO of ComfortDelGro Australia. ComfortDelGro is one of the largest transport companies in the world with a global workforce and its head office in Singapore. Within Australia there are approximately 4, 000 employees and 4, 800 vehicles including buses, taxis and patient transport vehicles across six states and territories.
Nick has been in this role for over four years now and prior [00:01:00] to that he was the CEO of ComfortDelGro Victoria for six years. Prior to that COO for eight years. This company has been a major part of Nick's life for almost 30 years and he's risen to the very top role. Nick has a Bachelor of Science degree with majors in Economics, Accounting and Law from the University of Aberystwyth in Wales.
Nick is married to Karen and has a beautiful teenage daughter. Nick's an amazing and inspiring leader and I'm very much looking forward to our conversation today. Hello, Nick, and welcome to my podcast on leadership and well being with Hayden Frickie. It's great to be with you as a guest today.
Nick: Thank you, Hayden. Lovely to be here and thank you for the invitation.
Hayden: Noah is [00:02:00] very much looking forward to our chat today. Now you're the CEO of ComfortDelgro Australia. I obviously know you very well and ComfortDelgro, but for our listeners that don't know ComfortDelGro, maybe we can start with you just telling us a bit more about ComfortDelGro and it's a company you've worked with for almost 30 years.
So what does it do and where might we have even seen the vehicles within your business?
Nick: Uh, Agreed. I think we are unfortunately in Australia. I'll tell you a little story that uh, we have a new chairman and he's Australian. And uh, he recently went up to a politician and handed out his name card and the politician responded. who are you and what do you do? Well, he didn't say who are you.
He knew who uh, my chairman was, but he certainly didn't know the company ComfortDelgro. But there'll be many people who I'm sure have encountered our services in the past. If you are a traveler to Singapore, let me start there. If you are a traveler to Singapore, you have seen a lot of our taxis which is the Comfort brand and uh, they are now ComfortDelgro taxis.
So there are many of our taxis across running across Singapore. But we are also a [00:03:00] largely a public transport company. So we run buses, trains and moving people is the core of what we do. We came to Australia in 2005, starting out in Sydney. We bought a business that was originally known as West Bus.
And from 642 buses, we have now grown to around 2, 800. In fact, we have around 3, 000 vehicles running across Australia with 4, 800 staff. In terms of our footprint, it's easier to describe us as not being in South Australia or Tasmania. Our bus brands are running as CDC so we've got CDC, New South Wales, CDC, Victoria, CDC, Queensland, CDC, Northern Territory.
Those are our bus brands. We own Swan Taxis and the other brand that we run or the other. Business?
that we have is National Patient Transport. It's, uh, 200 non emergency patient transport vehicles. They literally look like an ambulance with a significant footprint in Melbourne or Victoria.
And we also have ambulance trucks in Western Australia as well as in [00:04:00] New South Wales.
Hayden: Oh, fantastic. Thank you, Nick. The listeners may be able to watch out for the CDC logos now on, on buses and various vehicles. You and I have known each other for a while now and have had a wonderful coaching relationship for about 18 months and as the CEO of a very large transport company that everyone's just heard about, with thousands of staff and many daily challenges, we've focused our sessions on your ability to drive high performance as a leader of your business and particularly building a high performance leadership team to create the kind of culture you have.
Yeah. that drives high performance across the organisation. We've also tried to balance that with taking care of your own wellbeing at the same time, because that can be very stressful driving you know, high performance. You need to do it in a sustainable way. So particularly we're focused on your energy and motivation, your drive to sustain that without burning out.
So I'd just love to hear some of the key things that you've done to try to get that balance right. And some of the key lessons over the last 18 [00:05:00] months.
Nick: Thank you, Aidan. I think uh, uh, when we first caught up I was certainly in a somewhat of a dark hole, I suppose. I would describe that hole as being one of my darkest in my career and darkest in my life, practically, potentially. It was a time in which the business uh, was going through a potential listing exercise and it was aborted.
Uh, It was a listing exercise that... Uh, Was challenging for us and the team and as we have tried to get through the process it did put a strain on the team and it was to begin with a fairly new team. Um, And I, I certainly understood the phrase then that leadership can be lonely.
But I think through that process of the 18 months working with you, Hayden, I think I've understood that leadership can be lonely, but I don't have to do it alone. And I think that's something which you have been able to support us as a business. So, so I I know that the journey started out with us doing a 360 degree review of myself and of my senior leadership team.
And as an outcome of that. Of our one [00:06:00] to ones I embarked on a broader leadership session with simple supporting us. And uh, it's been a wonderful 18 months with many of my team coming together. So in such a transformational manner that again, I think that phrase that I just used prior to uh, we don't have to do it alone is something which has brought a lot of meaning to us as a team.
So certainly I appreciate your supporting us in that journey of transforming us into a high performing team, really,
Hayden: Thank you, Nick. Appreciate that. And thank you for sharing so honestly and vulnerably the starting point of being in that dark hole that you're in. Tell me, you're obviously in a different place today. What were some of the, sort of, just from really practical perspective, what are some of the little things that you maybe you've, you've done or you've learnt along the way that have been helpful for you?
Nick: Don't go through a listening exercise. No, no, but look, I think one of the things that uh, certainly have learned again is that I suppose. Many people can, and many males would most probably identify with this statement that we tend to not want to [00:07:00] show weakness. And so that to ask for help is uh, often a challenge and to ask for help was what I needed to do and what really helped me in terms of moving forward.
Whether or not I draw the strength from family, religion, friends, our professional help was something which I think it was something which I needed to do. And I did. And seeking the professional help through yourself, Hayden, and through your team uh, certainly was one of those starting points. But after that, just starting to equip my mind with learning lessons from um, what you had provided me in terms of input, in terms of uh, reading material and taking ownership of the challenge and working it out.
And I started to realize, I suppose, I think I've, I've used this phrase before in one of our sessions that you are very much my personal trainer when it comes to my mind. And that you know, physically we all know what we need to do in terms of exercise. It can be our body healthy, but we still hire personal trainers to get us fit because it pushes us out of our comfort zone.
It [00:08:00] challenges us to do more. and you do that in a safe way with my mind and my mental wellbeing. So I, again, I think that that whole space of pushing the boundaries. starting to understand that even if my gut feels that this is not something I want to do, that I can develop techniques to actually overcome what my gut feels.
And that space of, again, you're prompting and challenging me regularly. is a space which has helped me over time. So just again, for me speaking in public or doing this podcast for that matter, it's going to be one which I would normally not do nor volunteer for. And uh, this is something that you kindly challenged me and uh, thought that you put out the words uh, about how it should be fun and how I should challenge myself to do this.
And here I am. So I think those are elements that you have, you have provided me with. And the knowledge that it is actually through by confronting my inner fears, confronting my psychological makeup from being a middle child and an emotional [00:09:00] basket case of the family to someone who can be a lot stronger through just techniques, pushing myself, getting out of the boundary and doing it regularly.
Hayden: Fantastic. Nick, you said two things that I just want to delve into a little bit more that I found fascinating. One is that, you know, the starting point to ask for help. it's really interesting, isn't it? Because a lot of people wait until they're really struggling before they ask for help, and a lot of people will never ask for help.
They think it's weakness to actually ask for help, but I actually think that's the most courageous thing to do, is to begin a journey. You know, you look back now, and it's easy to say, yep, that was worth it. But at the start, sometimes it takes courage to put your hand up and seek help. And the second part of that that relates to that I think is just changing your mindset of what that help might look like.
And we all go to the gym and get a personal trainer or seek help physically somewhere, get a coach, a physical coach, but we, we often don't think of getting a coach for our mind. So I think that. I wonder if that actually [00:10:00] helps us think about getting help is why wouldn't we do this? Uh, You know, because it's, it's, we do it in other areas of our lives physically.
So I don't know. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the courage to start, and that mindset.
Nick: It certainly was a challenge initially. Unless I was in that really dark hole, I suppose, I don't think I would have contemplated it on a normal basis. So just understanding that I was looking at life's choices around well, in the particular circumstance, I've been with an organization coming to 30 years by next year.
And looking outside of the organization was something which was already a mental challenge for me. As you would appreciate, my CV is uh, written in 1994 and I don't, I have not had to write another CV since then. Uh, So again, there was a whole lot of inertia around that space. So again, the challenge of asking for help was one which there was enough.
Support for me to do so. So I think I had that going for me in that space. I [00:11:00] also had, I suppose, all the wisdom from uh, people who have come before me and people who have been honest enough to admit the vulnerabilities, people who have championed mental health like yourself, Hayden and others in the industry and others sporting heroes who have done that for all of us.
I think that's certainly helped. So there's a large movement as you would appreciate moving into that direction. Thank you. And for me, that was something which I just needed to embrace myself and take hold for myself and understood that I am just, I'm a human being like everyone else.
The title doesn't make me impervious to uh, bullets. It doesn't make me impervious to uh, people's scorn and derision and critics who might Find a way to get under my skin but suddenly I think it's one which just crossing that threshold is one that the circumstances made it necessary and one which I saw as a need through the lens of my partner, my wife, my loving wife and my daughter, and just getting myself into a better mental health meant I would be able to come [00:12:00] home to the family and not take the baggage of work into that environment and impact my family as well as impacting my work performance.
So, I think it was all those elements that helped me cross that threshold into I need help.
Hayden: Yeah. Well done. Thank you. It's fascinating. Just that last thing you said, I think a lot of. You know, old leadership styles were all about. We separate the leader from work and home, but I've always believed and certainly in today's environment, you have to take the whole person and work out that because, you know, particularly at a CEO level, your job affects your wife, your children, your family, and your community around you.
And so, you know, taking that holistic approach is something that I've certainly believed in and we've, we're focused on that as well. Yeah.
It's interesting, you know, I having worked with you now for some time, I actually believe you're a very good and probably great leader, and I, I respect you as a leader very much and I've seen you do amazing things over the last 18 months and And yet what's also is interesting probably for the [00:13:00] listeners is, you know, you have still struggled with some anxiety that's crept into your mindset from time to time.
Sometimes your sleep's been impacted at times you told me you felt like you, in the early stages, at least, you were the great pretender, in your words. It's interesting to note, though, that many leaders actually suffer from impostor syndrome. And so you're not alone in that regard. But it's not spoken about very much, you know.
The leader's meant to be strong and tough and confident. So, you know, we did some work around positive psychology, Martin Seligman's work, and cognitive psychology, understanding your thinking, and thinking traps, and how to manage unhelpful negative self talk, and those sorts of things. So I wonder if you were able to share, you know, a few things about what you learned about that, and how has that helped you to manage the imposter syndrome, and even anxiety, and sleep.
Uh, What are some of the things that are still that you still remember and maybe a few things that you use to help to manage that, not maybe to get rid of it, to manage those issues.
Nick: Think I'll [00:14:00] start with that middle child syndrome that I talked about earlier. I have an older brother who's four years older and a younger brother who's four years younger. And I think we have certainly talked about the birth order, what that does psychology of a middle child like myself.
And someone, you know, my older brother was uh, talented and he played the violin and he was with the Singapore, that's where I was born uh, the Singapore Youth Orchestra. Uh, He went to a prestigious school. My younger brother was actually uh, chosen at a very young age as part of a gifted program.
And he went on to again do very, very well in his career and his life. But as a young kid, he was certainly someone who would ace his exams without any effort. Uh, Whereas in contrast, I was the one who always felt that life was unfair and I was a completely average student and uh, someone who always needed to be appreciated, I suppose.
That was something looking back in my life the need for appreciation did dominate my [00:15:00] or need to be noticed, I suppose, dominated my thinking. Uh, So this imposter syndrome continues to remain with me. Definitely. Uh, So it's still a work in progress and I thank you for your kind words about how you think of me as a good leader.
And I think again, Hayden, that's been part of your support of, supporting me through that journey. So I thank you again for that. And for your kind words, I still, like you say, I feel like that imposter. So, but in terms of what I do in terms of trying to move out of that trap again, as you being my personal coach and pushing me into challenging me into environments.
I think you recently told me that in front of my peers, where I might feel that being imposter in front of my boss, that if I don't speak my mind and I keep worrying about what my boss might think that eventually my boss won't even hear what I actually do think. And that's a more significant problem that if I'm not able to actually put forward my thoughts to my boss.
I'm actually impacting the 4, 800 staff that I'm here to defend and to protect. And I am their voice box. [00:16:00] Um, So I suppose looking at the proverbial cup, half full cup, half empty, flipping it, the blacks and whites flipping my thought process and actually understanding now what, what is my, why, why am I in this role and what am I doing about it in terms of pushing.
the progress of the organization and protecting the organization and it's something which I had to do and have to do and continue doing. It's something which only recently I've undertaken as a process of pushing myself out of my comfort zone. And using the techniques that you have uh, the toolkit that you provided me to be able to actually deal with those scenarios is something which I've, I've used and done uh, but one of those things as I I know that you shared with me, Hayden, and one of those things I'm not going to be doing is standing in front of a tram and announcing the next stop.
Hayden: For those listeners who don't understand that about 30 years ago when I started to become a psychologist I did cognitive psychology and as part of that we had to do a little [00:17:00] experiment and to teach ourselves that we need to learn not to worry about what other people are thinking about us. And so one of those was standing up in a packed train and announcing the next stop.
And I had to do that on five occasions and that was incredibly anxiety provoking to do that. But I got through it and did learn an important lesson that what other people think about us is really none of our business. It's easier to say though, than to do, and sometimes we have to constantly challenge ourselves with experiments to remind ourselves of that, yeah.
Nick uh, there's a few things that you said there I'd like to just probe into a little bit fascinating for myself and possibly the listeners. One is that despite all the work we've done there's still some feelings of imposter syndrome and anxiety. And I think that's a really important point, that it's not about getting rid of those things, those, those feelings are probably going to be there for a very long time if not ever, but it's about maybe reducing them and managing them.[00:18:00] And you talked about courage to have a go despite still feeling some of those feelings. I'd like you to tell me a bit about that because I think that's really important.
A lot of people feel like, oh yes, I'm cured. I'm fixed now. And that's, that's just ridiculous. You certainly are behaving and acting differently, despite having some of those feelings still there. Do you want to talk a bit about that?
Nick: Yeah, let me go back to the aborted listing and that exercise, which really was the externality that caused the black hole for me. And I'm not in that environment now, and the environment has changed and the environment has improved. It doesn't mean during that period I don't have challenges.
But I also know that in terms of the... Building resilience is not about just the externalities, but about me being prepared for the next storm and being ready and equipped to be able to deal with the next storm. Again, so I suppose I could have easily said, you know, Hayden, I think I'm much better.
I'm out of the dark hole and let's stop the training sessions. But I think uh,[00:19:00] personal training is about ensuring that I'm just equipped for the next storm, which is something which we've, we've kept on doing. And for me, it's pushing myself out of the boundary and hence the personal trainer. I suppose, you know, a lot of people want to get healthy and they want to get physically well and they go to the gym or get a personal trainer when they can't fit into that suit that they love so much and they embark on that process.
But once they get into the suit, they may stop and go back to what is their normal lifestyle. And so I think that is for me, the analogy I would use around I want to be in that suit and not just in that suit, but I want to remain in that suit and ready for the opportunity to do more and to support the business better through the next challenge and the next wave that might hit us um, hoping that it never comes.
But being prepared for it. So, certainly I think that's something which we have worked to do and hence, again, I think that whole personal trainer analogy is one that resonates with me in terms of how we have worked together and and asking for help and consistently [00:20:00] seeking that support and pushing myself out of that, comfort zone is something which would prepare me better.
And that's something I've decided I want to do. Something that I've decided I will do not just for myself. It is certainly for myself, it is certainly for my, but that why I suppose is more broader and I think once I've hooked on to that broader why it's helped me motivate myself to do it and that it's 4, 800 lives across the business who depend, not dependent, but certainly would appreciate it more if I was better prepared for the next bow wave that's going to hit and certainly more closer to home my own wife and daughter who certainly depend on me to be also present with them through the journey of life.
So that, those are the, my why's at least that has motivated me to keep being fit, keep being healthy, keep being in the suit.
Hayden: I think there's two other things I'd like to pick up on what you said, which I think are just fascinating. And certainly there's a lot of evidence and research behind these things. You've mentioned the why and the purpose, and I think [00:21:00] that's a fascinating way to go. And you and I have spoken a lot about this.
Sometimes when you do lack some courage and feel some anxiety, going outside yourself and thinking of these your why, and the 4, 000 people that depend upon you that gives you courage. And as you say, the thinking of your, your wife and daughter is powerful as well. And I want to, I connect that with courage.
I think, you know, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. You know, we all to grow and develop. We all need to go through discomfort. You know, going through, having the courage to be uncomfortable actually is needed for personal growth and development. So I wonder just linking those two together in terms of having the courage to, to do things that are uncomfortable.
And uh, my sense is that one of the things that help you with that the most is, is moving away from the moment and actually thinking about your why. So is that if you connected those two together, the why with the courage.
Nick: Yeah, no, [00:22:00] absolutely. And I think it's something which in my leadership journey and uh, in not just my personal life and my mental well being, I've connected how that courage to be different is important. I think a lot of businesses and a lot of business leaders like to look at life through or like to to base their decisions on what their competitors are doing or base their decision on what everyone else is doing, what are the, social norms or what is acceptable in terms of being able to defend their decision by saying, well.
That's what everyone else is doing. But I don't think that's leadership, I suppose. And I don't think that following or trying to be the competitor is being a leader and sometimes choosing the path, which is different, choosing the path that is one in which you believe and is founded on your why would give you the courage to be able to take that step out and the courage to do something different. So I'll give you one example, I suppose, in the public transport world, which some of your listeners may be familiar with, the, the zero emission at the tailpipe is something which[00:23:00] is commonly talked about, is common, is something which your listeners may even like to see, that buses become no longer diesel but electric.
And we, we have taken a very different position on this, and not, that we don't want to do zero emission. But we've taken the position on our why and our why is very much based on what actually your listeners would like if they have an opinion in this space and they're interested in public transport.
And that is that we want actually to decarbonize and a true decarbonization process. And that true decarbonization is including what Where we get our power from so if you talk about a fully electric bus It can be that that challenge is that the fully electric bus is powered by a grid that's coal fired and and that doesn't actually help the environment so the courage for us is to actually see at the risk of our our impacting our our relations with our government counterparties is to actually propose something different than we have.
So, we have proposed 50 hybrid buses. We work with the Victorian government to deliver this and we have delivered [00:24:00] 50 hybrid buses which is the largest fleet, not just across Australia, but in Asia Pacific as well. So, it takes courage.
I think absolutely I've connected those two and brought it into my personal life as well.
Hayden: Yeah, fantastic. Thank you for that. Now while we're talking about personal life I know that you've spoken already and in our coaching sessions about your lovely family, your wife, Karen, and your teenage daughter uh, starting year 12 right now. For you as a CEO running this big company focusing on your why they're part of your why.
But how have you made enough time for them? Obviously the role is a huge role. What are some of the strategies that you've used to ensure that you, you make enough time for your family?
Nick: One of the things I didn't do in the lead up to COVID, I suppose was just have time within with myself and my wife and something which I did enjoy doing during COVID as most people would know during COVID the only time you can get out of the house was exercise. And while my daughter didn't want to [00:25:00] join us, my wife and I went off on walks.
And I found that those times were actually very refreshing in terms of us connecting together as a couple. We have persisted and continue to do that outside of COVID. And uh, we spend a lot of weekends and on beautiful spring days, like, I hope what we might enjoy this evening. I would certainly be going out for a walk with her and that, that, that time together has been important whereby I can't I try to leave my phone behind, but obviously being an operational company I do need to bring it along, but I try to avoid anything that isn't an immediate thing that I need to respond to.
So that's something which I try to devote my time to her and have a conversation with her about, ourselves. And that has been important for us to remain close and tight and understanding also of my challenges as to what I'm going through and her challenges is what she's going through so that we can support each other better.
Uh, So yes, it's been a lot more time walking, a lot more time being present and in the moment Not doing what my wife would [00:26:00] regularly pull me up on, which is, So, what are you thinking about right now at work? So it's, it's trying to be present and being, and it's a work in progress. Definitely a work in progress, Hayden.
Hayden: Ah, yes. Perfection's not the goal though.
Nick: Agreed. Agreed.
Hayden: it's interesting, isn't it? You go back to the COVID lockdown periods and habits that we started then you know, some people really actually blossomed during COVID and others struggled, but I remember asking people, what are some of the habits that you've developed during COVID that you want to continue afterwards?
And I, I think it's fascinating that you've, and wonderful that you've continued that habit. And I assume you've done it deliberately too. So it's important to. Sometimes to be deliberate about what you want to do outside of work, we often have, you know, highly successful executives at business focus on goals and, but you get home and you've got no goals.
And so just having that deliberateness about what you want to do and, and you just simply get the rhythm and the [00:27:00] habit of going for a walk and talking and also even having conversations about us, about you too. Uh, Fascinating. So yeah, just tell me a little bit more about that. The. You know, was there a deliberate decision that you made, I want to continue this or did it just happen or it was, yeah.
Nick: It was deliberate and it was also something which finding, I suppose, the incentive to do it is also helpful. And one, some of the incentive is there's a brilliant mocha shop a brilliant shop that sells chocolate and mochas that we focus on getting to. So we reward and pamper ourselves.
Uh, But I think it's also the fact that my, my wife is my life partner, and in that, someone who shared my same dreams, shared my, my tears and my sorrows, and it's been just a brilliant help me and support to me in my life, and, you know, those days in which I feel like not going for that walk or for well, we, we challenge each other and we support each other, and I think that's where, again I know that just having someone in that space who can professionally help me in the [00:28:00] psychological mental well being space is one in which you have come alongside.
So you're my, I'll call you my mental wife. no, no. no. But I think it's been a look. Absolutely. It's been deliberate. And coming back to your question, it's been deliberate. And it's been one in which we look at what has happened to our lives and our communication over that period of time.
And we look at that and that's been our why and why we keep doing it as well.
Hayden: Oh, wonderful. Thank you. And it's very inspiring to hear you talk so beautifully about your wife in particularly in today's environment where divorce rates are around 50 percent or thereabouts. And uh, so wonderful to hear not only you're together, but you're still very much in love. So well done. I'm going to change directions uh, a little bit.
There was a time last year, I know, where there were some horrendous work issues that I'd like to ask you about. You know, sadly, there was a very tragic fatality on the Sunshine Coast where two young staff were hit and killed by a driver that was on ice, I think. They're on the side of the road of the bus fixing a [00:29:00] tyre, I think.
I may not have all the details right, but There was a lot of negative media, plus some legal issues and grieving families. And I remember it was a really challenging time for you emotionally which is actually, you know, to be expected. And as well as that, one of your executive team members was struggling with the emotional fallout too.
And I remember we, we spoke a lot at that time. I'm just interested in how did you cope? In terms of both responding appropriately to those challenges, but also emotionally yourself, what were some of the things that you recall? I mean, we had many chats, but what stands out to you now, looking back on that time 12 months ago and, and what's, what are some of the kind of reflections you've got about that time and how you had to cope?
Nick: One of the things which I like I, I feel and it's reflecting on my life, I suppose one of the things that I feel I bring to the organization is my focus on care for the workforce and care for my team. In fact that's. been built into practically the fabric of [00:30:00] our value system. So our values is based on we care and I believe that that's what stands this organization out. People organization and the leaders that I've surrounded myself with are people who I feel bring also that level of care for their fellow human being. Uh, So as an organization that the loss of two lives suddenly impacted us significantly without going into it very much more of the details of the incident I, I will actually name the names, Aaron and Layton and they were two individuals who were very dear to our business as are all other of our staff but they were young mechanics one was an apprentice and one was, had just won the young apprentice and both were taken from us way too early.
So it hit our business and it hit our teams very significantly, and it continues to have repercussions and impact on us as a team. In terms of just supporting uh, the CEO of our Queensland operation, who was a lot closer to the [00:31:00] incident. It's again, understanding that mentally, these things will impact us and impact our interactions with our families. It will impact our physical health as well, so not just the mental health and well being, but it definitely manifested in physical challenges in terms of how how our body reacted to those to the grief and the moments of grief I think one of those things that we did was to certainly support Tony in terms of the c e o of our Queensland operation. And we had. Steve will come alongside him and offer him that support, which was very important for his own well being. I think he definitely did go through a very dark time as well and uh, just having that professional help.
And insisting that he has that professional help. I didn't have to do much insisting. I think Tony recognized it himself. But being able to do that and having a team that we could rely on and know that we can offer the right level of care was important for us. And so having Steelpool there and having [00:32:00] that relationship already with someone who was trusted Well, something that I look at and look back on and think, well, that we all have insurance policies for a reason.
It's for the tough times and for the times when we don't think we need it. And just having someone alongside there as a professional who can support Tony was actually fortuitous. And something which I think we would... we certainly should keep because it's that insurance policy to ensure that we've talked about CEOs and how about leadership being lonely and the challenges of leadership, that having someone who can professionally support us through that, that we trust.
Already because of an ongoing relationship is so important and something that I take away as Important for us to keep doing and keep having
Hayden: Yeah, thank you for that. Just you know, as I'm listening to you and I'm, I'm I don't know what the right word is, pleased or proud or whatever the right word is, that you're able to be so humble and so vulnerable you know, which I, I'm, yeah, it's inspiring. It makes me think though of [00:33:00] the difference between say, positive psychology which is, you know, it's not just focusing on the positives and being happy all the time, but, you know, being able to be grateful and a number of other things that relate to positive psychology.
But also that sort of work that Breno Brown's been espousing for 10 years now around vulnerability and that when you have an incident like this that it's important to, and grieving you talked about that vulnerability is not weakness and showing your emotion, showing that you care. Is not weakness, but actually strength and being able to sit with the discomfort of that emotion that you clearly feel for those two young men.
You know, the balance between that, but also finding a way to move, move forward at the right pace. And I was just wondering if you want to talk about that a little bit, because it was a balance between being able to sit with that discomfort, that emotional discomfort you and others clearly felt. And in time, grieving appropriately and then moving on at the pace that was going to be helpful. I don't know if you [00:34:00] want to talk about that a little bit, but that interests me.
Nick: Yeah, no, thank you Yeah, I think it's recognizing it and going through the process of grief or something which you certainly helped Steople certainly helped myself and Tony to go through And we are forever grateful for your support in that area. And just the recognition and being vulnerable was one in which I think both Tony and myself have learned a lot more through that period of time.
I won't speak for Tony in this particular regard, but I certainly will speak on my behalf as myself and my personal experience. I, I, I have described myself as the middle stump and the emotional basket case. So maybe being vulnerable does come a little bit easier to myself, but certainly it doesn't come easy to me in an environment like a podcast that I don't know who the readers, the listeners might be.
Uh, So being vulnerable in that environment is one in which I had to also develop and understanding that being vulnerable is not necessarily a weakness, but it definitely does. give people a better [00:35:00] understanding of who I am and where I'm coming from and that that vulnerability as well has given us as an organization more broadly a more empathetic feel.
And when I say feel, generally like to think. Of the organization as being empathetic to our, our customers and our customers needs and our staff and that's something which others will be the judge of, but certainly as a CEO of the organization, that's something we, we certainly not just espouse, but have built into again, the way that we want to walk out daily lives as a team.
And again, that strength is something which comes from quiet confidence. It doesn't come from shouting from the mountaintop about how strong we are or being a show and display of strength. But just that quiet confidence is how we try to take the organization culturally and that's certainly been, I suppose, who I am.
And certainly the people around me have certainly been people that I have brought together in terms of a cultural fit. That's the type of people that I've tried [00:36:00] to surround my organization with in terms of leadership.
Hayden: I, for one, certainly see that you know, vulnerability as inspirational and not as weakness at all. So, hopefully my, my listeners and our listeners do as well. So thank you for that. And I like your phrase actually quietly confident to one of my other people that I really like to listen to is Adam Grant, and he's got this phrase, which is about confident humility.
And that's certainly what I see in you, which is you're very humble, but there's a level of confidence, despite the, at times anxiety you feel. There's a quiet confidence, and I like that term, or, or confident humility. So you certainly fit that, Nick. It's time to start to wrap up. I'm going to ask you one last question that I'd love to hear from.
So if you think about the journey of 18 months, you know, you were in a difficult space 18 months ago. You're not perfect now, but you're in a totally different space in terms of both the performance of the business being stronger. And you know, you're in a better. emotional [00:37:00] space. And in fact we've discussed periods of, of flow and joy and flourishing and thriving, which is wonderful as well, the positive side of those emotions.
So obviously there's many factors involved in, in that, change and no doubt over life, you're never going to stay in that zone either. You might go back again and then forward again, but. What are some of the keys that help to move through? Uh, No, we've discussed some of these, but only a few others that stand out to you as part of that 18 months journey.
Nick: It's certainly the externalities that have helped as well uh, business success, as you mentioned we've gone through a tender environment and we have retained our contracts and not just retained some of these large contracts, but grown our footprint has been part of it and uh, so the externalities, the broad externalities in terms of The impact on myself but that whole building of the resilience through going through a process of building up capability and skills and a toolbox that I can turn to the [00:38:00] understanding that if I need to uh, you know, remember early on, you had given me the book from Sarah Alderman.
I think I pronounced her name right and again, I know that you pointed me to various chapters in her book to read through our coaching sessions together. But again, that's something that's not just there, but one in which I can have a conversation with you Hayden on in terms of just ensuring that the next bow wave again, or the next wave that hits us, that there is something that I can read.
and something that I can come back to you and, and get a whole lot of skills in terms of improving and going through those times are something which uh, is now part of my life and part of what I can do to, to prepare myself for the next challenge. And that is something which you know, I think people talk about a whole lot of these challenges as no longer a matter of, if, but when.
And so those challenges are one in which I now know that I can go through and I know that I can go through with support that [00:39:00] is not just my own resource, not just my own strength, but one in which I can rely on and have people who are in my corner. So to speak in terms of being able to go through that as as a partners in that journey.
So I think that's certainly Something that's helped and something that i'll continue to look at but in moving to that flourishing space As I mentioned earlier about challenging myself In times of flourishing not to forget that That win is just around the corner and to ensure that as not just a business, but as my own personal life, being prepared for those challenges and being prepared mentally to be stronger for it by pushing myself out of my comfort zones in that, in the eye of the storm, ensuring that I'm not actually forgetting all the preparedness that I need to have both my personal life as well as in the work life and professional life.
Thank you.
Hayden: Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. And for those who would like to understand a bit more about Sarah Edelman uh, [00:40:00] the book is called Change Your Thinking and it's probably the best book on cognitive behavioral psychology in the simplest language. I would certainly recommend it to you. So Nick uh, with that in mind, thank you for sharing your stories.
I'm inspired by you and by what you've been able to do and look forward to continuing our friendship and our relationship going forward. So thank you.
Nick: Not at all. And in closing, Hayden, you.
have inspired me as well. And your sharing of your life and through your book and the sharing of your life through our coaching sessions has also inspired me. And you're someone that I also respect very highly. Thank you, Hayden.
Hayden: Thanks, Nick.
