Finding Balance in Leadership with Dr Liz Walker

Today I’m thrilled to be joined by Dr. Liz Walker, CEO of RSPCA Victoria, to talk about the importance of finding balance in leadership. With over eight years of experience leading Australia's oldest and most recognisable animal welfare charity, Liz has faced numerous challenges while striving to create a high-performance culture. She shares how she has navigated challenges in her personal life while leading her team to success, and the strategies she has employed to balance her role as a CEO with her own wellbeing.

Liz holds a Bachelor of Veterinary Science from the University of Melbourne and a Masters of Management and Marketing from Macquarie Business School, and has been a community leader with great respect for animals and the role they play in helping all of us to be better people.

We discuss the difficulties Liz has faced in her personal life, and she shares vulnerably on navigating a marriage breakdown whilst not only bearing the demands of her role as CEO, but at the same time raising four children. She emphasises the need to manage the chaos and let go of the pursuit of perfection, by setting realistic expectations and focusing on what truly matters. Liz highlights the importance of having a strong support network, both at work and in her personal life, to help navigate the complexities of leadership and parenting.

Self-awareness is a crucial aspect of leadership and personal growth, and Liz shares her own practice of self-reflection. Asking yourself important questions can be highly valuable to gain clarity and perspective, something Liz does regularly. It not only helps her to grow in her own life, but gives her the ability to cultivate a healthy and supportive work environment. 

As a leader, Liz has focused on creating a high-performance culture within the workplace, and attributes her success to empowering her team to take ownership of their work. By fostering a sense of accountability and focusing on the greater good, she has built a cohesive and resilient team who can problem solve without leaning heavily on her to provide solutions. 

We discuss the importance of practising gratitude to support our wellbeing, and Liz shares how she mindfully appreciates the small moments of joy. In a world where the demands of leadership can often overshadow personal wellbeing, Liz’s positive outlook and commitment to growth serve as a reminder that balance in leadership truly is achievable when you seek it out. 

LINKS:

Connect with Hayden:

Websites: -  https://haydenfricke.com/ 

-  https://www.steople.com.au/

-  APS College of Organisational Psychologists

 LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/hayden-fricke/

Transcript

Hayden: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to my podcast on leadership and wellbeing with Hayden Fricke. I'm very excited to be about to interview Dr. Liz Walker. Let me tell you a bit about Liz before we get started. Dr. Liz Walker is the CEO of RSPCA Victoria, a role that she's held for over eight years.

Founded more than 150 years ago, RSPCA Victoria is Australia's oldest and most recognisable animal welfare charity, ending cruelty to all animals. Prior to this, she was the CEO of the Lord Smith. Prior to those roles, she was, held management [00:01:00] roles and marketing roles at Healthscope, which is now Grubel's Veterinary Pathology, Bayer Animal Health and Uncle Ben's of Australia, now Mars Pet Care.

Liz held a Bachelor of Veterinary Science from the University of Melbourne and a Masters of Management and Marketing from Macquarie Business School. Liz has been a community leader that respects animals and the role they play in helping all of us to be better people as well as a more humane society.

Liz is also an amazing woman because she is the mother of four teenage and young adult children. Welcome to the podcast Liz Walker. Liz, welcome to my podcast.

Liz: Thank you Hayden, lovely to be here.

Hayden: Now, Liz, I'm going to get straight into it and put you under the under the pump [00:02:00] and under the microscope fairly quickly here.

We've known 12 years now, I know. And our relationship began when you were CEO of the Lord Smith. Animal Hospital back then and then continued over the last 8 years or so as you've been the CEO of the RSPCA Victoria. I've enjoyed uh, coaching you and, and watching you grow and develop as a, as a great leader and an incredibly passionate person, human, real, authentic and driven to succeed.

Whilst you've been driving performance at the Lord Smith and the RSPCA, I've also known that you've been working on your own wellbeing at the same time with various challenges such as you know, raising four children which is obviously a huge challenge and also depending on how much you're happy to share some with the world.

Sit challenges with your, your marriage, which sadly ended in a separation. So I know that we're focused our coaching on things like creating time to exercise, to spend time walking your dog, to stay connected with friends and stay fit and [00:03:00] healthy and connected generally to increase your happiness. And they're lofty and challenging goals to try to balance demands of a CEO with those things.

So I'd like to start with what are some of the specific wellbeing Challenges that you've had over the years, particularly more recently, and then some of the solutions or some of the strategies you've employed to cope and to balance your life as much as you can.

Liz: Gosh, that's a big question. But I think um, the wellbeing challenges for me personally really come down to the great juggle which is the balance of life. One of the things that I did do, I, I think the whole, The whole conversation about balance is really important, but there are times when I've just said, well, we might just have to manage the chaos, to be honest. and and that's okay, and I just went, okay, we're just going to do our best, and I can't be perfect at everything. Some of the challenges that I've had you know, when I started at RSPCA, we had some really big challenges here, and trying to work through what [00:04:00] that meant from a leadership position, how we're going to tackle real difficulties we had with our financial position and our culture and our strategic focus were really tricky. And then later on that, you're quite right, Hayden, throughout, over the last five years my marriage sadly broke down. So I had to work through all of that. And I moved out of home at that point all four of my children were still at school in year 11 year 9 year 7 and grade 3.

So, it was a really challenging time. So, I had to navigate the existential crisis that COVID was, as well as moving out into another home dealing with the separation and then um, online learning, which was not a pleasure, I have to say.

Hayden: What amazing challenges, Liz, and I certainly knew those things at the time, and the listeners are only hearing this for the first time, and it, it is absolutely remarkable. You're looking so well given all of that. I'm interested in something you said there that's fascinating [00:05:00] is you know, you said manage the chaos, but he also said not to try to be perfect.

And I know that particularly women in leadership roles sometimes try to have it all. Try to be the great leader, but also be a great mum, like their mum was. But their mum wasn't a CEO of a big organisation. And it reminds me of a book called Drop the Ball. By a a female from the U.

S. whose name escapes me right now. So, yeah, I'd love to maybe just get you to talk a bit more about that. Is, is the, just even the recognition that you can't be perfect and that you can't have it all and maybe you have to make some choices.

Liz: Yeah, that's right, I do think that, about that a lot, and I think it's really easy to get into a little bit of a cycle where you second guess yourself a lot. And so I, if I find myself doing that, I do have a very I have a narrative with myself that says, okay, what's worrying you?

Why is it worrying you? Does it really matter? You know, could you have been better? If [00:06:00] so good. Shall we learn that? Is there anything you need to do to make amends? Or are you just going to clock it and keep going? and so it's really important to, to actually go through that. I think that the other thing that has kept me going is that I do like a good list but I also, I focus, I really try and focus on what matters I do that myself.

I also have really good support around me through my EA and my team and my chairman and if I'm not sure, then I'm not afraid to ask and I've given them permission to tell me if they think that I am taking on too much and not focusing. where I probably should be focusing and that's really helpful.

I feel confident that someone will come in and stare me down saying, Do you really need to do that? Or this one's staring us down, perhaps we need to focus. So I invite that help. The other thing I think about is something's worrying me in terms of that perfectionistic thing. And sometimes it's worrying me for really [00:07:00] good reasons and sometimes it's just worrying me because I'm impatient. so I ask myself Okay, is that something I can control or influence? If it is where am I at with that and do I need to worry about it now? And if it's not, let it go. And if I've done everything I can and now I'm just waiting, I sometimes have to remind myself of that too, and I simply then put a forward note in my calendar that says, think about this particular matter at this time. And then I find that I can put that worry in the back of, in the back of my mind and it doesn't bother me anymore.

Hayden: I love that answer Liz, there's probably um, actually three things from what you've just said that I'd love to just dive into a little bit. The first one was around just your reflective practice, those questions you ask yourself. I mean, a big part of leadership and even behavior change and development and growth is about self awareness.

And a lot of time we're on automatic pilot and we're just going through life and we don't pause and reflect [00:08:00] enough. And great leaders learn to slow down, stop, pause and reflect. So, yeah, I love that, those questions you ask yourself and the fact that that is a really nice reflective practice that you've got there going.

I think. Another thing that you spoke about, that last one was the circle of control and circle of influence is a great tool to actually reflect as well, which is, is this something I can control? And I think a lot of leaders try to control everything, and in the end you realise you can't, you need to pause and reflect and say, can I control this?

Or is this something I'm concerned about? But actually can't control, and so do I put it off, do I defer, and say, look, I'm going to think about that at some other time, and you write yourself that list and say, I'm going to do that later. So just that practice of saying, is this something I'm concerned about, can't control?

If it is something I can control, do something about it. If I can't, then, you know, defer that or, or stop worrying about it for some reason. So that was something else that that I thought you said that's kind of really interesting. Maybe I'll, before I go to the third thing, just get your reflections on, on both of those.

Liz: Yes I [00:09:00] think that's right. One of the things that I learned from you a number of years ago we did our 360 degree workshop with my team was around that, was some of my, my opportunities to improve, which was about being present. And really listening and understanding. And it's something that I really have to work on because you know, I'm busy and I think my other recent reflection that someone pointed out to me in a way that was, was pretty funny actually, was uh, I think I get bored easily. so I really have to work hard at being present and listening because often I... I know that sometimes I think I have the answer, but really oftentimes I don't. So one of the things that, the outcomes from our 360 discussion was that I started writing down every day on a piece of paper when I started my day, five things and sort of like a little mantra and they are listen, pause, understand, that's a [00:10:00] big one, provide clarity. And be courageous.

So that essentially means be quiet, listen to what you're saying, then seek clarification so you really understand the problem. Tell people exactly what you think, you know, within that, making sure it's respectful and all those sorts of things. And then if a decision has to be made or you need to provide clear feedback, just do it. and that's been really helpful for me. More recently, in last year, off my own back may I say, I added two others. And they are, think ahead and show gratitude. And I think that's something that as we approach our 2030 strategy at RSPCA Victoria, that's really been on my mind for the last year or so. And I think the showing gratitude stuff We often talk about the fact that, you know, you need to tell people you're pleased and celebrate your successes. I don't think I've been that good at that in the past. And there's nothing like saying to someone, I really, that work is fantastic, I [00:11:00] really like this aspect of it.

It solved a really important problem and being quite specific. that makes people feel really good and it actually makes me feel good too. So, I've added that one in.

Hayden: Fantastic. I love those things. I mean, all those things are obviously unique to you, but they come from a place of having done a lot of deep reflection, whether it's with me or others, and then going right from that, what do I want to change? You know, you get 360 feedback or any form of some form of feedback.

Then you have to reflect on that and go. What do I want to do with that? And then actually being quite specific and clear about what you want to do with that. So that's, that's fantastic. The other thing I wanted to bring us back to that you said that I think is really important as a coping mechanism is the support group around you.

You know, you talked about the chairman, the EA and others around you. And I think that is something that's so important that, you know, sometimes the role of a CEO can feel lonely 

and it's so important that you surround yourself by that support group. And I think that seems to be a key to your success as well.

Liz: Yeah, I think that's important to me both [00:12:00] at work and in my personal life. I have some really wonderful friends and certainly for my wellbeing, having regular contact with my friends and meeting them, with them socially is an absolute key. And there's always something I think that's really important. Going for a walk. I've got a number of friends who I just, we just walk, talk and have a coffee. And uh, makes a huge difference. Makes a huge difference.

Hayden: Fantastic. I'm going to jump into a couple of areas that we've touched on but go a bit deeper into them. I'm going to ask you about your role as a mum. I mean, four children is just amazing. How have you sort of made time to be a mum and to run two successful companies?

Liz: Well, the proof will be in the pudding Hayden, but my children... My children thus far seem to be doing doing reasonably well. Look I think, you know, when, before I was separated, it's fair to say that Lewis, my ex [00:13:00] husband did quite a bit of the heavy lifting when it came to collecting kids from school and what have you. And all those sorts of things and immediate after school activity. As they've got older, in some ways it's become easier, the days just get longer. So a lot of the sporting commitments happen later in the day. I think in in one area It's good for them because it has encouraged independence, where they sometimes have to get themselves places.

I'll always pick them up. I do know where they are and I think for me, one of my keys to success here is that, and it's part of my support mechanism, is that in my calendar, I also have the children's calendar, it's just in a different colour, So, key to my success is being able to merge the two and having the understanding from my team that that's there and that from time to time I am going to have to leave early to go and pick them up or come in late because something's on. And I think that's, that's really, really important and I certainly I appreciate that from my team, but it's also [00:14:00] something that our whole team enjoys. If you need to go and do things for your family, you can. The idea of flexible work is alive and well here at RSPCA Victoria, as is the idea that you have to get your job done.

So, if you need to take some time off that's great. Make sure everyone understands that you will be away. But get your job done in a way that works. And look after your family at the same time. Yep.

Hayden: Yeah, I think that's the concept of flexible workers all around focusing on outcomes rather than inputs, right? And saying, look, we've all got outcomes we need to drive, but you have flexibility in when you work at times. So if you have to pick children up or attend concerts or whatever. You've got the flexibility to do that.

And so it's not about clocking in, clocking out. It's about, can you deliver the same outcomes in the flexible time that you've got? The other point I wanted to make in relation to what you said, I think is kind of inherent in what you've said there about your parenting style is an acknowledgement that you're not the same kind of parent as your mum probably was, or someone else, a mother in generations gone [00:15:00] by that didn't work, right?

And so that has some benefits. In terms of building their and maybe they might see that there's some challenges in that. So I think for you it's going back to not being perfect or not needing to be the mother that maybe your mother was. And just being able to let go of that and go, you know what, I can still do this, it's just different.

Liz: Yeah, that's right. And I think also, that's not to say that, you know, my kids don't pay out on me. Because they do. you know, they will remind me of some, terrible inequity that they're experiencing because I did something for one of them on a particular day and they didn't get the same thing in real time.

So I have to remind them. On a regular basis that, you know, equity isn't a real time proposition. It, we ebbs and flows they remind me that I'm an only child and I have no idea. And then we just reach a um, a point beyond, which I'm not gonna debate it anymore. I just say it is what it is.

I'm doing my best guys. So,

Hayden: I think that's a great [00:16:00] answer and I think that happens whether you're a working mum or not with children. It's never perfection absolutely. Anyone who's a parent knows that. putting the kids aside? What about then time for yourself? That must be incredibly hard to have juggled time for yourself and your own.

Well being at all. I know at times you probably didn't have much time for yourself, but I know at times we've had to deliberately focus on trying to make time for yourself take care of your well being. Tell me about that. How have you been deliberate about making sure you had some time for yourself?

Liz: Well if I'm honest, I'd probably say it ebbs and flows a bit. And I suppose it depends on how you define time for yourself. I think often the time that I have for myself I'm spending with some, with some friends. So I'm not, it's not necessarily me um, sitting back doing things by myself. So I have regular regular schedule of catching up with a particular friend, where I, where I go walking on the weekends. I have a personal trainer who we meet [00:17:00] reasonably regularly. But it can be really hard. the thing that keeps me um, really connected, happy and, and well is actually my friendship group. So I have been known to um, you know, probably sacrifice physical health for that social and intellectual health that I get from my friends. And it's certainly an area of focus for me at the moment about trying to find the balance of just remaining physically fit.

I'm hoping the warmer weather might pick me up, to be honest.

Hayden: Yeah, I think we're both in Melbourne I know listeners might be all around Australia, but yes, the, the weather, even today, is cold and sometimes a bit of sunshine helps you to lift your spirits.

Liz: Mm,

Hayden: Tell me, I know that over the time we were talking about, you know, strategies and things you do to cope and juggle, I know that sometimes we all haven't been successful at being perfect.

What do you think gets in the way of actually taking care of yourself and putting yourself first when there, when there have been periods that are, are down and [00:18:00] difficult? What, what is it? I mean, if, if we all focused on well being we'd probably... Get there, but then things get in the way. What are the things that you think might get in the way of actually taking care of ourselves?

Liz: That's a really good question because I find myself asking myself that. Not infrequently. I think there's uh, for me personally, I get really tired. You know, I spend a lot of a lot of energy at work. I love my job. I tell everyone I come to work for a rest. But I do get really weary. And I think finding that thing that, you know, motivates you to get moving and to look after yourself is really the key.

so I think, you know, sometimes it's as simple as time, and trying to figure out how to prioritise things. And I've found that really hard with the four children. I'm lucky now, two of the two big ones have got their driver's licence. we're fortunate enough that I bought them a little car.

And that has really given me a whole [00:19:00] bunch of time back. Because there are some nights where I would just... You know, get home from work, drive someone to soccer training, come back, make dinner, go back and get them from soccer training and then come back and deal with a pile of laundry in a kitchen that looked like a vomit, a vomit exploded in it.

So, and it was just me to look after all that stuff. And so, you know, limp off to bed about 11. 30 at night and then get up again at 5 o'clock in the morning and think, you know, I'm feeling a bit tired here. So I think some of that balancing act is really hard. I'm trying to decide you know what little thing, even if it's one thing you're going to do.

So going for a walk for half an hour trying to do some yoga, that's my latest thing. maybe take up tennis. 

Hayden: couple of things from what you've said, Liz, I think firstly, just an acknowledgement, I mean, I'm listening to you there about that daily rhythm and you go, no wonder you're tired. You probably did it day in, day out, day after day, you know, that sort of, that's, that's horrendous. And you go, you know, after intense periods of effort, we all need recovery time.

How do you get that recovery time? And [00:20:00] as you said, I come to work to recover, so yes so being tired. Obviously, absolutely gets in the way. Something else you, you mentioned briefly I wouldn't mind picking up on, which is really interesting, which is kind of about purpose and meaning. And, and which then goes to what you focus on, not trying to do everything.

A lot of people go, go through life on automatic pilot, and they don't stop and pause and reflect and think. what is my life purpose? What am I all about here? And I just wonder you know, we've talked about reflection before, how much of that you've done and how much thinking about your own purpose, whether it's really clear or not.

And how does that understanding your purpose help you when you get tired and when it's, when things are difficult?

Liz: that's a great question and I think that um, I have done a lot of thought about that, thinking about that. So my purpose on this earth is to. Make the world a better place for everyone, and that's people and animals. I've spent [00:21:00] a lot of time in the animal place, but anyone who's ever had an animal knows how wonderful they are for people, and that they do make our lives better. But my other really clear purpose is to raise my kids in the best way I can, and that's what keeps me going, so, you know, even if I have to go off and, you know, retrieve them from sport or, You know, some wayward activity with mates in the middle of the night, where, you know, they seem to have forgotten to come home. And they need to go and be retrieved. I've got, I always say to them, I'll come and get you wherever you are, whatever time it is, I don't care. And that won't be a problem. And I think just being there to look after them, and help guide them to be good people, to have good lives and make good decisions is something that I'm... I'm really focused on. and that gives me, even though I might be um, feeling really physically tired and even mentally weary, it does give me an enormous sense of satisfaction. And I think I'm really good at you know, doing those [00:22:00] mindful things. When I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed, I'm probably not as consistent as I might be. But thinking about. What I'm grateful for, and really recognising those moments of joy where you think, wow, you know, things are going really well either at work or at home. You know, when my teenage son actually mowed the lawns on the weekend, I tell you, I had a smile from ear to ear, and he did a great job, and he was very pleased with himself.

 you know, I think that um, making, really recognising things that matter, even if they're tiny helps me to feel really great and that kicks me along, keeps me going.

Hayden: Fantastic. I really like the fact that you've got two kind of purpose statements. One that's kind of more work related and one that's kind of more personal related. I think that's fantastic and I love the connection between that and gratefulness. You know, there's been a lot of talk about gratefulness in the last five or ten years and some people love it and some people sort of poo poo [00:23:00] it and say, you know, it's rubbish.

But I think to me it's about... You know, being grateful for the little things. Sometimes we, we kind of go through our day and we, we do things and we don't pause and, and reflect on even tiny little things. Like, geez, I had a lovely cup of coffee today, wasn't it? Isn't it nice that I can have such a beautiful soy latte or whatever, right through to, isn't it nice that my son mowed the lawns?

How awesome is that? Wow. I never thought that would happen. So just actually taking a moment to be grateful and I think. The connection between gratefulness and your own purpose is, is something that I think seems to, be a powerful tool that you use to cope, and probably even, I guess that maybe leads to my next question, because there's, there's a difference between coping and thriving and flourishing, and we all want to move forward.

We all want to cope and be resilient and sometimes we're, we're struggling and we're just trying to cope. And other times we're trying to go beyond coping to, to thriving and flourishing. So I assume that's one strategy you use to, to kind of move to not only cope but to thrive, to have more purpose in what you do.

Maybe I'll, I'll get you to extend on [00:24:00] that. Are there other things that you do to kind of get towards flourishing and thriving beyond just coping?

Liz: Oh, you know, my reflection on my life is that I think managing my own expectations, I've got really, I think I'm pretty clear on. What I would like from life, what I think, you know, looks like really good for me. that's been really interesting to understand, you know, what, what, what I can be happy with.

And I am really fortunate because I have been placed in a fortunate situation financially. And I've managed to buy a nice house for the children. And everything is good. It's lovely and I'm able to provide for them in a way that I think is really fair and reasonable. So I sort of, and I could be um, you know, if I had a mindset that I wanted to make the top 100 rich list, I would be very, very miserable right now.

But I don't. So I'm really happy my life. The other thing that I, that I, do do, other than the things I've mentioned, and I think. it's, not too complicated, but [00:25:00] when things get really tough, I get help. during those years that when my marriage was really um, rocky and then after it failed and I, and I separated, I've spent a lot of time, I found a really trusted counsellor and she was fantastic. She really helped me and um, when after I would speak to her, I'd feel really grounded and really. Calm about it was that was going on, what I was going to do about it and what actions I was going to take and what I was just going to go, oh well, I understand that and I'm just going to be calm about that, I can't do anything about it, it just is. And that was really helpful Recognising that there are times when you might need, you know, a third party objective person in the way of counsellor or something like that, or a psychologist, is enormously powerful. And I, that's something I've learnt, you know, over the last 30 years or so, that it's a really great resource to draw on.

Hayden: Yeah, well said, Liz. Obviously, as a coach and psychologist myself, I totally [00:26:00] believe in that. But you know what? I'm also aware that it's really hard for people to take that first step sometimes, to pick up the phone, to call and get to see somebody, let alone knowing where to, who to call and where to even start to find somebody.

And it takes courage to actually even admit that I need help. I don't know if you've got any advice for anyone who's Is struggling and challenges just in terms of making that first step to reach out to somebody because that that's because then you have to admit that something's wrong that you haven't got it all sorted and that you're struggling and that's hard itself any sort of advice or thoughts for those who are in that position

Liz: you know, the sorts of things that I did was I talked to my GP and I got a mental health plan. And it was just fortunate that my GP referred me to someone who, who I found really helpful. and then she had a few other suggestions for, for some other things to work through. And I think that the conversations I've had with other people that If you [00:27:00] find someone you know, you probably need two or three sessions at least to find out if you're going to click. So it's really worthwhile investing in building that relationship with whoever it is you're talking to. If after three sessions it's, it's not working for you, it's probably not working for you. you know, I've referred the people I've spoken to to other people. I think if you. If you're like me, and you have spoken to someone and it's worked, and you can see someone struggling you know, it's that. not so much mental health first aid, it's just being caring and compassionate, saying hey, I just, you know, you might want to try this, I found it really helpful.

 so I would talk to people. I'd talk to your GP and I'd talk to friends you trust. And say, I'm thinking about doing this, if you've got any ideas, and I'll be, I think you might be surprised about how many people do have other people, you know, psychologists to talk to. And how valuable it is to have that independent, objective person who's just interested in. In what you have to say and to help, to give you perspective and ideas about how to deal with life.

Hayden: Yeah, isn't it interesting how in society you [00:28:00] know, sometimes we're a bit afraid to tell others we're, we're seeing a psychologist or we're getting help, but I think fortunately it's changing and more and more people are more happy to open up and say, yep, I'm seeing a psychologist. I'm, I'm struggling and I've got, I'm getting help and it's no longer.

You know, a negative thing to say that in fact, I see as a positive thing. So hopefully we can do more of that and people can, can talk about these things openly rather than having to hide and, and try to present their perfect self and hide the, the challenging self. So I think that's, that's good.

Liz: I think 

 you know, separation in marriage is, sadly, reasonably, And I went to see the, the psychologist around my separation, not just for how I was coping, but for how I could help the children to cope and the types of you know, the types of things they were experiencing and how they were behaving. And what it really helped me to do is understand what was probably going on for them and to try some little things That might help them feel more comfortable, more settled and more secure. [00:29:00] And um, gave me the courage to try some of those things and that was I'm really grateful for that because that really helped the kids and me to get through and um, My relationship with my children is really good.

Hayden: Fantastic, it sounds like some of those things are really pragmatic and practical things that you could go and try, rather than just, yep, I debriefed and vented and then left, so you kind of no doubt got that as well, but also some pragmatic things 

you could try with your kids. You've got homework, I like that, I like that.

Hey, how about we just pivot and move a little bit before we move towards closing, and move away from wellbeing for a moment, back to leadership. obviously whilst all these things are going on for you, you're trying to drive a high performance culture at RSPCA and prior to that at Lord Smith.

Liz: Mmm.

Hayden: What are some of the things you've been doing to drive a high performance culture?

Liz: Well, I've been at RSPCA for almost nine years now and I'm really proud of what we've achieved because we've been able to turn around our financial position and we've made huge gains in our, culture [00:30:00] and I think we've had some wonderful wins for animal welfare with a whole lot of advocacy changes as well as helping animals that come into our care. So, how have I done that? I think I've been fortunate enough to recruit some really good people. We've done a lot of work on leadership with our people, but I think one of the key things, which is always a work in progress at RSPCA, because there's a lot of things that we can focus on, is to try and, is to set the strategic direction and to provide clarity on what we're trying to do. It's something that I think we've done fairly, fairly well for the current strategy, but for the next strategy I'm looking forward to being even better because we know more now and we've got a better understanding of what we want to shift, I think. So I think having good people, setting expectations assuming good intent is really important and empowering people to do [00:31:00] stuff, keeping my door open. I've certainly got better at courageous conversations. Getting the team to work as a team. One of the challenges at RSPCA and probably in other organisations is, we have to make choices about what we're going to do and what we're not going to do. We don't have endless resources. So it's really easy for people to, get into their silos and just protect their patch. And so working really hard with the team to focus on that. on the big picture and the problems we're trying to solve and, stating very clearly that my expectation is that they operate for the greater good and it means, if it means that their area of the business takes a bit of a hit, then kudos to them if it's the right decision to make, they need to do that. So I think that's really important. And we talk about leadership a lot too, and what that looks like, particularly in this age of uh, flexible work arrangements and how we manage that. As an organisation that has got some operational staff who have to be in the [00:32:00] building all the time, and some people who are in the more administrative side who have bit more flexibility. And how do we find you know, the sweet spot for doing a great job, being accountable, and also providing the leadership to the organisation now, and to our teams who are coming after us, so that they know how to be good leaders as well.

Hayden: There's a lot in that Liz, that's fantastic. It's interesting listening to you. A lot of those things are. What I would call kind of more positive aspects of driving towards something. The thing that stands out for me is the balance between that and having those courageous conversations. And to be honest, you know, having worked in this space for 30 years or so now, I reckon that's.

The one thing that's, that's probably the most common flaw that leaders have whether you're CEO or frontline leader or chairman of the board is actually, cause we're all human, none of us want to hurt someone else. None of us want to have a hard conversation because you don't want to. And so sometimes we avoid [00:33:00] them.

Now if you are only having hard conversations and courageous conversations, all the time that is a problem. You wanna, you wanna mostly be having positive conversations and driving forward with the strategic thing. But you've also got to have those courageous conversations, otherwise you're gonna find yourself in a bit of trouble.

And you emphasise that, tell me just a little bit more about that. Cause that's something really important I think. What,

Liz: I think that the having the courageous conversations is something that I've really had to learn. And I think you know that I know that, and that's why you're asking me. So, I

think 

Hayden: what was hard at the start then? So you've had to learn it, right? And I know we, we worked on it. Why was it hard for you initially and what have you learned about that?

Liz: So my excuse is that I think I'm a fairly empathic person. And I like to fix things. And so I would see my team doing things, and I could see both sides of the story. And I could see why someone was irritating someone else, or something else wasn't working. And I'd try to [00:34:00] explain to them both what I was seeing. and give them, tips on how to address that. So I became, sort of like, hilariously, sort of like the mother who was

trying to sort out the kids disputes.

And that, turns out to be very disempowering and all that happens is the kids still

dispute.

so I really had to say, guys, This is something that you guys as senior leaders need to work out. That's what I expect. You know, these are the outcomes we're trying to get as the A team, as the senior leadership team in RSPCA. I need you to go and work it through.

So, and I expect you to do that. And that's been a huge learning. experience for all of us. I think we're better at it now. it's something that I think I'm going to continue to work on pretty much forever because um, you know, I like to fix things but sometimes I have to just ask, say to other people, this is what I'm seeing, you guys need to work it out, go and fix it, please.

This is the outcomes.

Come and tell me together if you've got a [00:35:00] problem.

Hayden: Isn't it fascinating, sometimes the strengths that we have are often weaknesses as well. So your strength with empathy and authenticity and understanding and caring. Is sometimes a weakness in when you have to have the hard conversations. So I think that's, that's really insightful to think that's what gets in the way of having those hard conversations there.

The other reflection I've got when I listen to you is about the concept of adaptive leaders, leadership, which really is sometimes, unfortunately, leaders save their staff and they want to protect them. Where in fact, great adaptive leaders ensure that some of their team are uncomfortable. So they grow and develop.

So instead of solving problems and. Fixing things as you say, you create problem solvers. So they solve the problem and sometimes to do that, you have to make them uncomfortable and have hard conversations so that they become the problem solvers rather than you, the fixer spot

Liz: I think that is the number one thing that we need to do better at RSPCA. Because we're a um, a really compassionate organisation. We [00:36:00] also see you know, the best and the worst of humanity in what happens to animals. And watching animals suffer is pretty awful. And so we suffer, our team can suffer from compassion fatigue. So building up our resilience and actually, so I think that tends to mean that people, More, I'm more likely to go, Oh, that's going to be really hard for you. I'll save you from that. But the impact is that people don't learn and they don't feel empowered. And I think that you're absolutely right.

Adaptive leadership to ask people to solve the problems and putting on, a reasonable amount of pressure is really important. One of the mantras here is um, and it comes from fundraising, but I think it holds true for all of this Hayden is that Comfortable people don't do anything and you have to make people a little bit uncomfortable to get some momentum going.

Hayden: on spot on. Hey, I've got one more question before we begin to wrap up, Liz. And it's probably more about your time. Obviously you're driving performance for over eight years, so that needs to be [00:37:00] sustainable. And you have to also, as well as. Getting your own shit together and taking care of yourself.

You have to try to ensure that you, you know, you help your team look after their wellbeing so that you don't lead to burnout. What are some of the things you've done to just ensure that while you're driving performance, you're also helping them to take care of their wellbeing.

Liz: hmm. Good question. I think there's a number of things. pretty open and honest. We've got some really good leave policies here at RSPCA. So we have introduced flexible work. So we have people working from home a couple of days. We have RDOs in place. That's really great. Uh, We've also changed our, our leave provisions across the organisation so that we've made it really easy just to take a day off because you're a bit cooked and you can, you can take off a mental health break, mental health day and my team who report to me do. I do too if I just feel a bit overwhelmed with things at home,

So 

we 

Hayden: So you don't have to fake, you don't have to fake a sick, sickie.

Liz: more. You don't have to [00:38:00] sniffle. And so you've got a headache. You can just say, I need a day.

And I love it when my team say that to me. I don't love the fact that they're feeling overwhelmed. Sometimes they're overwhelmed from work, and we'll talk about that.

Sometimes they're just overwhelmed with other aspects of their life. And I'm really pleased that we do work flexibly. I have a team member who's engaged in the arts and production and what have you. She's going to need some flexible work. Arrangements over the next, over the next month or so, that's fine.

She'll get her job done and we'll work through that. people take leave. We really encourage people to take leave and we manage around that and we celebrate that leave and really love it when everyone has has great holidays and uh, we can all live vicariously through their stories as well.

Hayden: Liz, that's a perfect place to end, I think. Um, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation where we focused a fair bit on well being and then drew it back to performance and, and back to well being again. So thank you for sharing that story. I'm sure the listeners will [00:39:00] find it fascinating. And even knowing you for 12 years now, just even taking 45 minutes out to stop and pause and reflect on that journey has been fascinating.

So thank you very much for joining the podcast.

Liz: Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you for asking me.