Building a New Purpose with Cadel Evans

I had the pleasure of speaking with Cadel Evans, former professional cyclist and winner of the prestigious Tour de France. While Cadel's incredible athletic achievements are well-known, I was interested in exploring his journey after retiring from professional cycling. In particular, I wanted to understand how he has been able to build a new purpose for his life while adopting a more sustainable approach to health and wellbeing. 

Cadel Evans is most well known for his 2001 Tour de France win as only one of three non-Europeans to have officially won the race. He's a four time Olympian and prior to road bicycle racing, he was a champion mountain bike rider. Cadel won the 1998 and 1999 UCI Mountain Bike World Cup. In 2007, he won the overall Pro Tour classification and was named Australian Cyclist of the Year.

In our conversation, Cadel shares valuable insights into his post-retirement life, his strategies for maintaining balance and the importance of reflection in personal growth. He talks about the nature of a career as an elite athlete as all-consuming, with a relentless focus on training and performance. However, as he approached the end of his career, he made a conscious decision to transition into a more balanced lifestyle, where his focus was less on an elite standard of performance and more on being a healthy human being. 

While retirement came with its own challenges around identity and purpose, Cadel also found himself navigating significant changes in his personal life. However, he approached these challenges with resilience and a determination to keep moving forward. By staying busy and maintaining his fitness, Cadel found solace and a sense of control amidst the chaos. He talks about the importance of taking responsibility for what he could when it felt like so much was outside of his control. 

We talk about the pursuit of perfectionism as a driving force behind success as an elite athlete. However, in the context of everyday life, this mindset can prove to be unhelpful. Cadel shares how he learnt to adapt and find a balance between striving for excellence and being kind to himself. He emphasises how taking time to reflect on life and pause allows for growth in productivity and overall wellbeing. 

As we navigate our own paths, Cadel's insight and experiences are a reminder that finding balance and stopping to appreciate the small joys in life are crucial to leading healthy lives. By doing so, we can cultivate a more fulfilling future for ourselves and those around us.

LINKS:

Connect with Hayden:

Websites: -  https://haydenfricke.com/ 

-  https://www.steople.com.au/

-  APS College of Organisational Psychologists

LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/hayden-fricke/

Transcript

Hayden: [00:00:00] 

I'm very excited to be interviewing Cadel Evans for my podcast today, but just before I chat with Cadel, I'd like to give you a bit of a background into Cadel's story. So Cadel Evans is most well known for his 2001 win in the most famous race in the world, the Tour de France. In fact, he's only one of three non Europeans to have officially won the Tour.

He's also finished second in the Tour de France in 2007 and 2008. However, his outstanding career included many other successes as well. He's a four time [00:01:00] Olympian, and prior to road bicycle racing, he was a champion mountain bike rider. He won the 1998 and 1999 UCI Mountain Bike World Cup. In 2007, Cadel won the overall Pro Tour classification and was named Australian Cyclist of the Year.

And in 2010, there was a great deal of expectation that Cadel would win the Tour de France after he had become the world champion. However, after a serious crash whilst riding with a hairline fracture of his left elbow, he lost significant time on the leaders and ended up 26th place. He managed to bounce back and win the Tour de France the next year, 12 months later in 2011.

This win caused huge celebrations in Australia with calls for a national holiday to mark this incredible feat. The Prime Minister of the time, Julia Gillard, phoned Cadel to congratulate him. At the homecoming parade held on his [00:02:00] return to Australia, tens of thousands of people turned out. Many dressed in yellow and waving yellow flags, a state reception was held in his honor and two years later in 2013, he was made a member in the general division of the Australian, uh, order of Australia.

Sorry, in 2005, Cadel married Chiara Passerini. An Italian pianist and music teacher. In 2012, they adopted their son, Rabel, from Ethiopia at the age of six months. Cadel and Chiara separated in 2015, very shortly after Cadel retired from professional cycling. Post race. Cadel has remained involved with cycling through his ambassadorial role for the bike manufacturer BMC Switzerland and within competitive cycling through the race named in his honour, the Cadel Evans Great Ocean Road Race.

In his personal life, he has since started a family with his partner, [00:03:00] Stefania, a ski instructor and professional skier from Italy. Together, Stefania and Cadel have two children, Aidan and Blake. Born in 2019 and 2020. very delighted to have you as a guest on my podcast.

Cadel: Well, no, thanks for having me, Hayden, and looking forward to, no, the discussion, but also every time we have a talk, I've always come away, uh, feeling like I've learned something useful. So, happy, happy to be here.

Hayden: Thank you. Now clearly you've been known as an incredible athlete and you've reached the heights of fitness that not many people could ever reach. But I'm not really interested in talking to you about that right now because lots of, uh, books and other things have had a look at that. I'm really interested in understanding what's happened to you since you've retired and, uh, since, uh, you've retired from professional road [00:04:00] cycling.

And in particular, I'm keen to talk to you about... How you've been able to look at your health from a sustainability perspective and not just focusing on physical fitness. And of course, you and I had many chats like this, particularly for my, my book. Um, So keen to sort of probe into some of those areas that we chatted about there.

I Remember on one occasion during the book interview, you told me a story about the day. After you retired and you pledged to yourself that you would keep doing it. You talked about endorphins and just feeling good and wanting to do more of that. So my first question is just, tell me more about that and that decision you made the day you retired to, to kind of keep going and, and what you did that next day.

Cadel: Yeah, I suppose, just if I can do a little self analysis, a little broad sort of overview of it is I think as an elite athlete, I work very hard on, on the big things, the training and the racing, of course, but also work quite hard on the details behind the scenes. And I [00:05:00] think when I was coming to the end of my career, it wasn't like, oh, I'm not going to be racing anymore.

It was more for me, it was more like, oh, now I'm going to have time to do those other things better. And whether they're directly related to performance, which I won't be doing, or I think other things I had going on in my life, I have a race in my name, a bike race in my name. Other projects going on, so especially in Australia, but also around the world.

So, so I suppose my first thing was making that transition, which probably made it easier, was that, Oh, now I'm going to have time to do this other stuff better. And then just approaching my last race, I, I sort of, I wanted to make a, conscious effort to have like that, having been to an Olympics and being a favourite to Olympics and then having a disappointing result.

What, what comes afterwards is really you don't prepare for that because you're so focused on. This big goal that you worked on for years and years that you don't even want to think about failure because that will sort of undermine your motivation for the day or whatever, but then then you don't deliver.

You don't live up to your own expectations or those of others.[00:06:00] So having had that experience, I was like, well, the first day I stopped racing, I'm just going to go out riding and ride and be healthy, but it was straight away just to Get a good habit and a a good rhythm of life, but in a whole different mindset.

It wasn't about the elite athlete, volumes of training and body weight and all these things. It was just about yeah, really stepping away from high performance elite athlete to hopefully, man, now my expectations are much lower, good performance, healthy human being.

Hayden: mm mm So tell me the very next day after you finished that, race, was that your own race that you rode in? 

Cadel: Yeah, yeah, it was my last race, a professional race in my career, was my first edition of my own race, the Great Ocean Road Race. I sort of extended my career a little bit to have a closure on that and I was a bit disappointed about the result. And all the time I think, well, maybe if I'd done this and maybe if I'd done that differently, but also there aren't many people that go and ride a race in their own name.

And, and one thing, this was a funny thing, but this is a more sport related thing. [00:07:00] What I notice is that later in your career, things that are different upset you more because you're not used to the unfamiliarity, but as a, when you're young, everything's new and different, so you're used to it. So then when you come to doing your last race, it's like, hang on, I'm the most experienced person here in this whole, people on the start line, but I'm the only one, or for the first time, I'm going to do the last race of my career.

I've got no experience at doing the last race of my career. You don't. So it was sort of a one of those sort of funny sort of catch 22 kind of things.

Hayden: Yeah.

Cadel: And what made me realize is as you get older conditioned as an athlete, which I saw in the pandemic, the young athletes really prepared more because I think a lot of the older ones mentally physically, they weren't, they weren't used to such having so many changes.

Whereas young guys, everything's a discovery for them, they just rolled with it.

Hayden: Yeah. It sounds like the, uh, yes. The young, young ones are able to adapt a little more than the older ones. You start to get a little more set in your ways. Plus also, as you say, I can't imagine how it must be to [00:08:00] be the last. Race of your life, which you say is as a new experience plus a race that's in your name So in that sense that is challenging to deal with and as you say you spend all your energy focusing on Doing well for that and not thinking about what am I going to do the next day?

What am I going to do the day afterwards and so forth? So I mean you called it failure, but I you know To have all these successes, you also have to have some failures. But tell me the day after you shared a great story with me, the day after you got up and you went riding the next day, I think. Tell me about that next day and, and what was the decision that led to you just to get up and go again?

Cadel: oh. Yeah, totally, just, I'll get up, meet the group of guys that I ride with, training, that I used to train with in Australia in the, in the pre season, but it was more just keeping a good habit going, good, like a good rhythm going, but of course um, the one thing as a, as a bike rider, I get on the bike and I didn't have my power meter because the team keeps them because they're expensive.

So I get on my, my same [00:09:00] bike that I raced on the day before, but it didn't have, but I was like, well, of course I don't need that anymore. Cause this is for registering information for training and performance and things. I'm just, I'm just riding to turn my legs over. And, but yeah, that was a real conscious decision to keep a, a good habit going.

I had the momentum going and to keep that going. I can go back, probably one, one thing, and this is, I suppose, related to my career and, and what you were touching on, fear of failure and so on. I think I was lucky, uh, early in my career when I I first went to the RIS with a mountain bike national team and there was a, an, an elder, athlete, older than mine, much more experienced than myself in that national team.

His name was John Gregory. He went on to be a coach at the Tasmanian Institute of Sport, I think. But he taught me um, which I think was. I applied this to sport, but I apply it to life. It was about getting the best out of yourself and being your best. And that was um, in my career really good because sometimes I went to the Tour de France and I was twice second by less than a minute.

This is a race that's like more than 80 hours long. [00:10:00] You're second at 23 seconds. But then I think I couldn't have got much more out of myself. I might have got another five seconds here or there but I still would have come second. But that, was a way to deal with that, that process at the moment because that was, as the team saw it.

I didn't win. In cycling you start in 200 and if one wins, everyone else loses, but anyway. buT then in life it's, and that's still like going for that ride the first day. It wasn't about being able to put out X amount of watts and things. It was about, well, I'm outside. That's good. I rode, I sweated. I kept my metabolism going.

That's sort of Getting the best out of myself, but it was also a day after a 185km race, so I wasn't like trying to train or anything. But it's still just always related to that getting the best out of myself. So that was something that I sort of learnt in sport, applied in sport, but now I apply it to life.

And I think that's a sort of good measure when it's paired with sort of perfectionism, fear of failure, and that's um, probably one of the great things sport taught me I think.

Hayden: I [00:11:00] want to come back to those things, perfectionism, fear and failure, but maybe one other question or a couple before we get to that I know in my book you shared with me that after retiring pretty much straight away you had a whole lot of challenges, so talking about challenges, you know, your challenges relating to your son, your divorce and various other massive changes taking place in your life, and you're trying to deal with that, I want to understand how you coped, but first of all, just do you want to share it?

Some of those with us, and then, what were some of the strategies you used to cope with those yeah, if you could just first of all share those challenges, and then, and then your coping strategies.

Cadel: Yeah, I had a period of life where, you know, I was racing as a professional, career, family, all these things, and within a six, I think it was about a six month window, all that turned around. I, the team sort of came to me um, you're not getting this and that, and oh, I'm getting separated and divorced, and when you have a child, that's, that's really difficult.

And so all of a sudden I was sort of like, what am I going to do here next year? Because my career was coming to an end at, at the end of that contractual period [00:12:00] and this, uh, the contractual period I found out about in, I think, June. Um, So I was dealing with all this stuff all at once and it was kind of, yeah, it was a weird, a strange thing in life because sort of a year later I was sitting, uh, like I'm, I moved house and...

thing, I was sort of like, wow, the only thing in life is the same is like, I've got the same clothes in my cupboard. That was it. Cause I sort of had so many changes in a short period and my, my thing was I just kept really, I wanted to keep myself busy cause I also had this idea, idea looking at it.

I was sort of like, I'm actually potentially at risk of like going into depression and things. just looking at all the factors in once cause I had. Everything in my life changed.

Absolutely everything. I used to go out and ride my bike. I had the same dog. Dog stuck by my side. And um, you know, I had the same clothes in my cupboard.

But I didn't even have the same cupboard because I sort of wanted it. Get in a fresh environment and so on and that was sort of I suppose part of the coping mechanism but I just kept my thing there was I just wanted to keep busy and Keep [00:13:00] fit fitness was sort of I suppose my escape I thought but I thought me one Being a bit I suppose I'm also almost exercise dependent but I think that's a much greater realm of escaping something avenues that we have in life, and that people go down, and I suppose for my own thing, what I saw with exercise and fitness is, okay, maybe you need to confront problems in life and escaping them isn't always the best thing, but if you can't do anything about them to go on.

do something that's also good for your health and well being, that can't be a bad thing. And so I just kept really busy working and did, you know, whole new careers in different, different world, different environment. I've gone from being an athlete to working in business and race organization.

In the bike industry and things, it was a real learning process. So that was, at the same time, stimulating as well. And then um, yeah, just, exercising and, keeping fit. But that, that was really like my um, yeah, just trying to do the best with the time I had [00:14:00] available, not to be the best that I could be or the level I was

at before, cause just unrealistic.

Hayden: there's actually a, a model, Cordell, that you might be interested in. It's called the Circle of Control and Circle of Influence. And you've sort of just described it in a way. It's like, if you can control something, you should deal with it rather than escape it, like you're talking about. But if you can't control it, and you're concerned about it, you need to just manage your emotional response to it.

And riding a bike or exercising is kind of a way of managing your emotional response. You say, I can't fix the problem, but at least I can, if I keep fit and healthy, I'm going to be mentally strong as well. And I'm going to be able to deal with it better emotionally. Is that kind of unconsciously how you dealt with 

Cadel: I think totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And because you've got that in the book, right? the little graph thing I remember. And, Well, yeah, you can't do anything about it, but if you just sit and dwell on it, I noticed my, my performance, like when you have all these weights and things, you're like, am I going to see my kid again?

That like these weight on your shoulders, it [00:15:00] affects you in a way that's just ridiculous. but I'm going to see my son this afternoon actually, we're going fishing. But anyway that was sort of, uh, A way that not only, I thought it was a healthy, healthy way to do it, and sort of contributed to my, job at the time, because I'm working in the bike industry, testing equipment and so on, but also it's something to, to stay fit.

It's always good to be able to go and ride a hundred kilometres and sort of not get tired in life, I think, because maybe I'll get called up to do it.

Hayden: Tell me, you've touched on this already, but obviously when you go from being the supreme athlete that you were to not being able to ride for hours and hours and hours anymore, and you've got these other commitments now, how did you manage to sort of get a good rhythm of exercising in a way that's more sustainable without stopping altogether, but without having hours to ride?

Did you, did you build a strategy to kind of just fit something into your life where you didn't have many hours? Yes.

Cadel: It took a little bit of learning and I'm still, I'm still sort of, I [00:16:00] suppose, in that balancing process now. And now as an elite athlete, everything you do is geared around your performance and therefore your training, so where you live, where you are, what time you wake up in the morning, what you eat, when you go to bed, whether you go out and visit friends or family or not always about your training and ultimately your competition.

Now, now then, of course, for the rest of us in life, where I am now, it's sort of, well, now I get to exercise when I can. Um, So I made some, yeah, little adaptions, and obviously I was looking at it the other day, I think, but I still managed to do about a third of the volume that I did as a professional, which isn't bad.

 But I was lucky doing, uh, a job as a brand ambassador for a bike company. I was often doing a lot of Grand Fondos and things, and sometimes, oh, we're doing this ride, it's 250 kilometers, I wish you'd told me before, I would've ridden a bit more.

But so that, that helped with the, the volume and things, but not many jobs get to do that. But now I'm sort of like, yeah, fitting in what I can, when I can, but it's also doing... Also dealing with, now I have two children, so it's sort of, this morning, [00:17:00] I woke up early, I was a bit tired, but I'll go out, go for a run before, before the sun comes up, back in time, help one boy get dressed and off to school.

And, yeah, my life now is, yeah, come back, run, shower, change nappy, answer emails to Australia, make breakfast for 

Hayden: But you still make it a priority, right? You're looking after your kids, but you're also taking care of your own health, right?

Cadel: Totally. Oh, it's, and, and my partner and I, Stefania, she's our ex, she was a downhill skier with the Italian national team and so on, and it's really our well being. So we're sort of, I suppose it's our really cornerstone, our well being. bEcause I suppose because I worked so hard as an athlete, I can afford to take things a bit slower now and, and have a bit of time and be flexible with with my life. But it's also oh, we're coming out of COVID, young kids and all those things.

We're still trying to get back some of the rhythms and so on, but having been in like, not that we had anything that you guys had in Australia, but We don't have any family or anything to help look after our children, so we've got to be hands [00:18:00] on all the 

Hayden: Yeah. Now, talking about lifestyle, you and I spoke last time about the connection between the mind and the body and we, talked in, in professional cycling, you had to learn kind of what it's really like to go hungry, and to exercise without a lot of food. food and then to learn to, you learn to appreciate food more when you've, had to ride for periods and you have to feel hungry.

You went on to explain to me that you kind of had to learn to feel okay to be a little bit hungry and then enjoying a tiny amount of chocolate. And you talked about um, you know, examples of enjoying food rather than just kind of eating food for the sake of it. I was interested in that because, some of us just.

You know, feel like we're hungry and we just eat whatever without even tasting and appreciating the food. Just tell me a little bit about that.

Cadel: being, from when I had to make my, made my steps into being uh, at the elite level of cycling, I was still mountain biking at the time, and long story short I went from 20th in the world rankings to 1st in the world rankings but [00:19:00] what I had to do was about, spend about 2 years hungry cause I had to lose, shed a lot, I shed a lot of weight and I also shed a lot of muscle, but 

what you learn during this process, like everyone we search to lose weight and so on, but I was very motivated. I was hungry in the sense of not just, but some like I really wanted to improve as best I could. what I really learned from that is you really learn to appreciate, I think, to respect and appreciate food.

But then you also, traveling in Europe, seeing the culture, the different people, the way different people eat and enjoy food, you're sort of, I think comes down to in the end is There's also this whole realm of psychology behind diet which I think is underestimated by diets, even to a certain extent, dieticians and things but just in our everyday well being and what I noticed is there's a certain, there's certain things that you just can't sort of do without.

You can do without, some people, I know they snack on something, but when you come down to it, it's like, well, what can't I live without? And it's sort of like, well, I [00:20:00] give up dessert for a year, but, oh, two squares of dark chocolate. That's something that's healthy and, and so I came down to those, to those little things and now I don't race.

I can, I'm still kind of strict on myself, but after being hungry for three or four years, I, I suppose my level of being strict on myself is probably a little bit how can I say this? the whip I whip myself is probably a bit bigger than, than the whip most people use on themselves.

Hayden: go. I assume you've let yourself go a bit and you've treated yourself a bit more than you used to though.

Cadel: I certainly, oh, I certainly do um, you know, of course we go out for lunch and enjoy, enjoy food and I don't don't worry if we're presented with wine and cheese and so on at, at a celebration, but I'm still, I suppose I'm still firm on myself from, from those habits. And I think one thing that, just to speak on the psychology of things is, 

what I learned is sitting down and appreciating a small amount of quality food, you, the psychological, uh, the satisfaction becomes from maybe eating a larger volume of less quality food or not, not being able to [00:21:00] appreciate that. I think, I think that's a underestimated thing. I always think of this when I see someone driving their car drinking one of those big cappuccinos or something.

Sugar and milk and empty calories or, or snacking on a Mars bar or something while they're, while they're walking to it or running to an appointment or something. It's like, you're not appreciating all those calories you're putting in your body.

Hayden: that's right. And, uh, certainly we spoke in the book about the cultural norms and differences between how. Sometimes we might appreciate a glass of wine versus some people just drinking it really fast in, in cultures like Australia and binge drinking. And I'll come back to that later on, but I think you're right.

Part of the psychology of eating is actually slowing down and appreciating the food you're eating, however many calories that you're actually putting in your body. Yeah. Tell me, I wonder, uh, you've talked before about your two young children, you've got Aidan and Blake and you said Aidan's just started school there in Switzerland, fantastic with your partner Stefania.

it's interesting to think about, when you were riding, you had a clear purpose and a clear goal. And purpose and meaning is something really important in, [00:22:00] in wellbeing. And now that you've kind of lost that purpose for bike riding, we talked previously about your desire to be a role model for your children and for others.

And as you transition from having a purpose in that area, you talked about. Wanting to stay well looking after yourself and you want to be a role model for your children and even shared an example of You know when you're 80 years old, so I'm interested just in in your new purpose How did you how did you go either consciously or unconsciously from having a purpose that was very different to a new purpose in life?

Cadel: as an athlete, uh, basically as a, as a Tour de France rider, basically you're, you're judged on your result at the Tour de France and, well, if you're in the Olympics or World Championships outside of that, that's. supplement a less than perfect result at the tour, but nothing else does.

so your goal's pretty clear. But I think to get to those goals as an athlete, I was very goal driven, even to the point that, Each hour of training, each day, before [00:23:00] waking up, what are my goals for today, in every little sort of step of the way. So I was always driven in that regard, and I still to a much lower standard have that for myself each day, and okay, how much exercise can I fit in before we speak today, this morning in Europe here.

so how many meters can I run up the mountain and be back in time for my kid to go to school. But they're little goals, but they're good goals. Because they, they help you push a bit harder or, or whatever. But in life set goals. I suppose I'm still, rather than being a role model to all those watching TV and following bike races, as you are as an athlete, now I'm...

I'm a role model to the few mammals who see me riding and we're sort of three or four thousand people in my, my public ride in my ride. I suppose I'm trying to be a role model mammal now, so to speak, uh, and, but most of all, what sort of gets me up in the day and motivates me is yeah, to read a source of sport taught me.

This was like um, role models, how important that is, and it's a real privilege as a sports person, how many people sort of look up [00:24:00] to you and it's like, oh. Might be good at doing that sport, or I was good on that day, but I'm pretty hopeless at other things in life. But people look up to you and, you know, you notice this when you get asked an opinion on political issues.

I've got no idea about that. But that, taught me the importance of being a role model and now being a parent. That's sort of what, being a role model to my children is what gets me up in the morning. So I'm sort of,

whereas I'm proud to be eating vegetables in front of them, or.

Hayden: fantastic that you've been able to create that new sense of purpose for you and the role model idea is a good one because I think some professional athletes struggle for years when they retire because they lose their sense of purpose and you've found another one very quickly which is fantastic and also many of your habits that you had.

whilst you're writing, you've toned them down, but you've still kept many of them. The way you talk about small goals and small little, you know, so some of those have actually, you've maintained those to help you maintain your wellbeing, which is, which is fantastic. Something else that [00:25:00] you and I spoke about That relates to motivation.

So purpose drives you a certain direction. The other thing we spoke about was fear of failure, which is another aspect of motivation. It's kind of slightly negative side of motivation, but it is still serves some positive, purposes. you said to me once, I've gone this far, I don't want to lose it.

Like you've built you know, this physical capability, I don't want to lose it. It's interesting, the research into fear of failure suggests that it can actually be a double edged sword. On the one hand, it actually stops us from becoming too complacent and drives us to keep going, but the other side of it is that that can make you feel stuck and actually make you worried and anxious.

for longer than you need to be with chronic sort of worry or hopelessness. In your case, it's helped you to drive health and fitness and keep going. I'm wondering for you how does it work for you now? A couple of years later, we spoke a while ago. is that fear of failure still just as strong and does it drive?

Positive behaviours, or does it sometimes drives, you know, anxiety and worry, or does it do [00:26:00] both?

Cadel: I'll try and answer this from three different perspectives. I just remember when I was competing as an athlete, and I think this is especially when you're an athlete, you're a favourite for an event, and you're in the press a lot. I just came to the conclusion, just totally observations, I'm sort of like, 80 percent of great performances in elite sport are driven by fear of failure.

This was a conclusion I came to on my own. I came to this conclusion just from my own, from my own observations. And then I see, uh, working closely with in the, business side of life that I'm involved in now. Uh, I see someone like this.

who's doing a great job leading a company and but he's always anxious, oh this isn't going to work, this isn't going to work, calm down, calm down, you're going to give yourself a heart attack. But he's, he's really driven by, by this, but then there when you mention the double edged sword is creating this unnecessary anxiety.

Anxiousness, I really see it like this. But at the same time, it sort of drives this guy to do everything so [00:27:00] well and he's done this fantastic job in, in his realm and his area. so I see that side of it. in my own life now, the third perspective where I fear of failure I'd say I'm still driven by it, but, um, and sometimes I get frustrated with myself.

I did a running race on the weekend and and I could see what position I was capable of getting. This is the competitive in me. And, and someone passed me and I'm like, I started to get angry with myself. I'm good enough to be there. I'm good enough to get that. But it, like, it drove me to get that.

But at the same time, I would have come away thinking, No, I was good enough to get that, and I didn't get the best out of myself, going back to getting the best out of myself. I wasn't winning, but I I was actually in the race getting angry at myself and I was sort of like doing a little sports psychologist self analysis on myself and like, hmm, okay, just to do the race thing now and, and go into it.

But in my own life now, fear of failure, my goals are so low compared to what they are that I'm being pretty lazy if I'm going to fail. So I don't feel so anxious when I don't make it.

Hayden: Well, I was going to ask you, I mean, [00:28:00] it's obviously very, very hard to get rid of you know, if you're such an elite athlete for so long, it's hard to totally reduce that competitiveness, that drive there. But I am interested to know, obviously, to be as successful as you were, you had to be kind of relentless, and, you know, really 100 percent focused.

But that's quite unbalanced, not really healthy. it's fit, but it's not balanced and it's not something you can sustain for a life. So to make sure that you can sustain a life of health and fitness for a longer period, do you feel like you've, whilst you're still at a lot of those qualities clearly, do you feel like you're a bit more balanced than you were before?

Cadel: tHe elite athlete cycling thing, when I was doing it, oh yeah, like you said, was really unbalanced. Now, when I'm looking at the, to be at the level of the guys, what they're doing, the sacrifices they're making in the sport now, so unbalanced it scares me. now in, in my life, now I, when I have my chance to, the, the few times I put a number on or something to do a race, I [00:29:00] totally switch off the competitive thing in me because I know it's going to create that anxiety and things. But if it comes together, I always leave that open. was doing this little race the other day and like, okay, now I switch it on. it was right near the end. But yeah, I suppose it's kind of like, We used to have this metaphor in training um, feeding the beast or keeping the beast locked in the cage the beast is the one that comes out to try and win the big races in the world and sort of like, Oh, keep him, keep him on a short lead kind of thing.

And that's I suppose, just living life now. It always comes back to this, trying to get the best out of myself, I think, which is what I learned 

Hayden: Well, it sounds like there's a balance now, Kadel, between trying to get the best out and this, this beast is and do a

bit better, you've done that. But you've, managed your own expectations. Has that, has that been a [00:30:00] Conscious or unconscious strategy to be a bit more balanced.

Cadel: I think certainly, uh, conscious as I stopped from stopping racing in 2015 to now especially in my world of cycling, everyone now is analysing numbers and... Strava and everything, every, every ride people do, it's published on the internet and you can go and see what time they did and all this and all that.

I don't want to be involved in that because probably, well this was subconsciously but it's actually consciously. Because I want to race me. I want to be, I think it's sales pitch for be better than yesterday. That's sort of, that's my thing. I just want to race myself and be better than yesterday kind of thing, or try and be better next week 

in my own performance or a climb that I do.

Hayden: I think that is a really important, uh, point. There's a, a, a woman, uh, Brené Brown. I don't know if you've listened to her or heard of her. She's done a lot of work around vulnerability and, uh, self worth and those things. And in my space, she's pretty famous globally. And, uh, anyway, she talks about the, the [00:31:00] problems with comparing yourself to other people.

And it's really important to just compare yourself with yourself. And she actually tells this lovely little story about, uh, she's written a book about this. And then she was swimming. And she's swimming in her lane, just enjoying a swim, nice mindful swim. And she noticed that someone came past her in the next lane.

And then she noticed herself speeding up to try to make sure she beat this person. And then she said to herself, you idiot, what are you trying to do? That could be a, an elite athlete, a young 25 

And 

Cadel: Well they might have, they might have flippers 

Hayden: they might have flippers on or whatever. But it was a, as a kind of metaphor for life though to say. Just swim your own race and enjoy your own race and be a bit better than you were yesterday But don't worry about the person in the lane next to you Because it can be unhelpful for your well being if you there's always going to be someone better Unless you're number one in the world as you were at one stage, but there's usually you're going to be someone better and someone worse.

So comparing yourself to someone else isn't really good for your well being. It

Cadel: And I think in the world of today, it's just [00:32:00] worse because I speak about Strava and Times on Climbs or even I go running out of my house and it's all these like segments. But when we go into social media and things and you see pictures of people on Instagram and you meet them in person, you're like, 

Hayden: doesn't 

Cadel: What's this, the AI? Yeah, all the AI where it makes people look skinnier and more muscly and all this. It's like, it was already, I think, 20 years ago, when they started photo touching models in magazine advertisements and it's, unobtainable role models. you can't be that skinny and be healthy or you can't look like that because 

Hayden: Sadly, that's a real problem, particularly for teenagers and their anxieties, because they feel like that's what you've got to look like all the

time 

Cadel: yeah, you feel, you feel absolutely, you feel fat, you feel ugly and this, but then you, yeah, when the she said hello to me when I met her a few weeks ago, someone who doesn't live so far away. Who are you? Because... I didn't recognise that. Because it was sort of like... But I just thought I'd keep that as a reminder that how far, [00:33:00] what we see and things.

Yeah, as a reminder not to... Be inspired but not influenced.

Hayden: yeah. Now I want to change up a little bit. we've talked a little bit about, culture and we spoke about cultural norms and in my book I wrote a lot about social norms. And you're in a perfect position to look at, this because you, you know, live typically six months in Australia and six months in Switzerland or Italy.

And You talked about the, the culture of you know, having a glass of wine with dinner being pretty normal in, in Europe. And you talked a couple, a year ago or so, about having about three glasses of wine a day at the time. I don't know if you still are or not, but you said you saw this as a, treat and you actually agreed you probably thought it was a bit much.

But, it was something that you allowed yourself to do to kind of balance out your life a bit more now. You then contrast it though with the, uh, typical maybe Australian culture, where Australians don't typically drink through the week, but they might binge drink on the Friday and Saturday nights. And you said that's quite a big cultural difference you'd observe that, that at a younger age in Europe you know, [00:34:00] people would have it, you know, even teenagers, uh, late teenagers would have a glass of wine with dinner, but they wouldn't binge drink the same as we do in Australia.

Um, So that, difference, I'm interested in your thoughts on, can you tell me more about that? The cultural differences in, in attitude to alcohol maybe?

Cadel: Well, certainly to alcohol, I think, I think it might be changing now. a bit further away from teenagers than that now. I'll be there soon with my son, I suppose. but the one thing I observed in Italy, or especially Italy, because they live to eat. Whereas we eat to live, but Italy, they eat to live.

A couple of things I saw um, this thing with a, a glass of wine was when I joined the Map A team in 2002, which at the time was the biggest sort of, probably one of the best teams, cycling teams that ever was. And it was like, one glass of wine a day, one glass of wine is medicinal, more no. So while I was racing, one glass of wine, well that's better than none, I'll enjoy that.

And for me in the end it was like a, yeah, the treat and keeping in balance if you do everything right. But I was the guy who, I didn't have dessert, even [00:35:00] riding. To Italy or to France or something, but, you know like a glass of wine. But, being when you discipline with everything everything in life you at a certain point there's something you want to treat yourself to and, and so for me, it was a glass of wine or now I race two or three glasses of wine which probably is sometimes too much, but, it amazes me like in our dietitians, their recommendations, don't eat cheese, don't eat this, and then if you look at the French diet, they eat lots of cheese and cream and very rich food.

But going back to the psychology of things, where they stop and have lunch during the day and they have a hot meal and, which is kind of annoying when you're running around trying to organise yourself because everything closes for an hour or two in the middle of the day, which is, I can never, I still can't adapt to.

But All these countries that closed down for lunch, Switzerland, France and less so now, Austria if you look at their obesity rates, they're much less than in other countries. just that psychology, appreciating a meal I think a thing that we as Australians do, I'll eat something now because I don't know what I'm going to have for dinner, [00:36:00] whereas in Italy they're like, I won't bother having breakfast because I know at 12 o'clock I'm going to have a hot plate of pasta and...

 so they don't snack between meals because they know they're going to have this and so it just makes me wonder that in our culture, we, we take an Italian food, but we have the Aussie or the American snacks in between. And then we have like an Italian kind of meal afterwards, but that combined calories altogether actually more.

Hayden: Yeah. It's interesting. And there's a lot of research recently about the value of fasting too. So if you actually. Don't eat breakfast and then fast, uh, some research around that and then you say well I'm going to have a nice healthy lunch and a bigger lunch but I've actually fasted for a while and your metabolism changes that way so perhaps there's that.

So it's interesting culturally thinking about the way we all eat, uh, and if you're trying to eat the way we do in Australia we snack more often than, Italy is what you're saying.

Cadel: Yeah, it's, kind of unusual to see people snacking in Italy. I was reading a book about I was an [00:37:00] Italian sort of longevity kind of guru kind of thing, a doctor. But he works in America now, but he was saying like the percentage of Italians who eat Italian food now, it's really quite low.

Because of the influence and the costs of preparing fresh food, compared to processed foods, much cheaper. But also the influence of advertising and so on. But it's rare that you're walking down the street and you see someone like snacking, walking and maybe they'll, maybe a gelato, that'd be a snack that you have.

You take your kid for a gelato and mum will get one as well. I've always take my son for a gelato and they look at me, why aren't you having one? And I was like, I don't eat between meals what I think also is underestimated. I mean, we do studies and we look at this and calories and, but you've got to look at something like the Italian diet is something that's evolved over three, four, 500, a thousand years. That's a long time to do a study. And, and we know it works, because it's going generation after generation. I, I think that's something we, we shouldn't underestimate. And I sort of, I suppose living over here, and my habits, I've been here, I spent most of my adult life in Europe now, so the majority [00:38:00] of my adult life in Europe, so I'm sort of really well embedded into it.

But it just makes me think that we should sort of respect these really long historic habits, I, I so to 

Hayden: Well, I haven't got the stats of Italy with me actually now. I'd be interested to look at them. I know for Australia 64 percent of Australians are either overweight or obese. And I know it's a little higher in England. I'm not sure of the stat, but it's about 68 or something and I think 72 for the US.

So I would imagine that. Uh, Italians are quite a bit lower than that in terms of overweight and obesity, but perhaps, given they've got, uh, their diets changing, maybe there, there is a greater level of obesity. I'll, I'll look up the stats and have a look. That will be interesting to

Cadel: Yeah, it was like a really low percentage of people actually ate Italian food, sort of most meals, he was saying.

But proportionately, as people have gone away from eating traditionally, their obesity rates has 

Hayden: Yeah, that would be interesting to see the correlation between the changes to, uh, the food they eat versus the obesity rates. Tell me, uh, [00:39:00] if we just slightly go back on something we talked about before When you're at your best, one of the qualities we spoke about was perfectionism. And that was a quality that actually kind of you needed to achieve the best in the sport.

You, you talked to me about you had to be like an accountant or an engineer. Uh, very structured, uh, every second counts massively. Uh, and those perfectionistic tendencies were important for you. But unfortunately it's a little bit unhelpful in life after elite sport. I'm interested, how have you managed to sort of, that part of your personality and your behaviour more recently?

Have you been able to tone that down or is perfectionism something that's really high still for you?

Cadel: Yeah, I suppose, also I live in Europe where people, people are quite, in Switzerland everything's quite clean and tidy and everyone's punctual and they turn up in their iron shirt and all their hair is combed and,

um, a bit conditioned by that. you sort of stand out. Everything's so clean and orderly and you're the one guy with the dirty car and wearing thongs or [00:40:00] something. You really stand out. people seem a bit more, uh, unaccepting of, differences in, in Europe it seems. I learned that quickly on the cycling team.

Hayden: I'm interested, Kadell, you live right near the border though of Switzerland and Italy, don't you? So,

Cadel: that's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. I live 500 meters. There's 

Hayden: so, 

Cadel: between me and the border.

Hayden: so how does that work? You've got this kind of society in Switzerland that's everything's really precise and Italy's different. how does that work?

Cadel: Uh, well it's interesting and I used to live in the French part when I first came to live in Europe. Uh, this is sort of like, twenty, twenty five years ago now and that was coming from there where people are really more structured and I thought, I thought Ticino, the state in the south of Switzerland was really interesting because you have the good of both worlds.

You have like the Italian culture and food south of the Alps so you get a bit more sunshine and don't get snowed on so often. Very good when you're training here in February, March. but you have the order of Switzerland and I have to say it's a good place to live because I can ride my bike to Lago Como and that, but I, I don't have to have [00:41:00] fear of like my house being robbed at night as opposed to when you cross the border where it's a things are a little bit different, and my partner, Stefania, she's from near the Austrian border from Italy too.

And she said, well, anywhere that's near a border, there's animosity from both sides. So the people are actually quite. Quite clicky and me being a foreigner here, I have to, well, appreciate the fact that I can live here, but also sometimes I feel um, not so wanted, 

Hayden: Mm. Mm. Going back to that, uh, concept of perfectionism and precision we had a chat about that and we also spoke about the concept of self compassion and being kind to yourself and how important it is to learn to be kind of more realistic to make sure your, your long term wellbeing is enhanced.

How's that going for you? Cause that's just a, A part of long term wellbeing is able to go, I might strive to be the best, but if I, if I don't succeed, it's okay, I've given the best shot and then you're kind to yourself. Uh, is that something you've, you've thought about and is that something that you've been able to, to add to your [00:42:00] wellbeing a bit?

Cadel: try to make an analysis of it and yeah, i'm still like trying to do my best but within the given realm. When you're going for the Tour de France, you have all the team of people behind you and all the equipment's organized and someone's booking your flights and doing all this. Everything's optimized for, for your performance on the bike.

So. The excuses to not perform are few and far between. Like the reasons, the real reasons why you don't, you're not capable of performing minimized. Whereas now I'm just within my realms of life. Okay, school starts at this time, so that's that. The best within the opportunities that I have. So I try and keep it like that.

I make the best of that hour and I have to say having kids has made me have a whole new priorities in terms of Stopping for coffee for 20 minutes, that's a complete waste of time for me, in my life now. Because, because that's 20 minutes you can do something with the kids 

Hayden: And so your kids, Aidan and Blake, they're not there just to optimise your performance.

Cadel: They, they, [00:43:00] happily they go in the baby trailer. But I, I see it also as, and I, I, Like as a parent of course, I'm, Is this the right approach to take parenting? I'm thinking a lot back to when I was a kid. and now that I'm old enough to, well, that person influenced me negatively, that influenced me well, so I'll try and do the same that that person did.

So I looked at my mother, a lot of things, I can't believe how many good habits I picked up from her. but in terms of doing things well, yeah, within the realms, and I have to say, being a parent sometimes, I have that um, just keep your calm with the kids, cause, yeah, a four year old doesn't, they don't know that we're late for something, or.

Where we're actually going is going to close if we don't 

Hayden: I think, I think being a, being a parent teaches us so much if we're willing to learn, uh, about it. Cause you get feedback all the time from the kids, don't you? So yes, very, very good challenge. Kadell, I'm going to ask you one more final question before we start to wrap up. You've been very generous, uh, with your time and your responses.

One of the things we spoke about is a good, probably, [00:44:00] Place to finish is about reflection. You and I spoke about, you know, you said when I'm on the bike, I had plenty of time to reflect and those reflections helped me learn and grow. And I think reflection is a key part of personal development and it's been part of your life to do that.

And you know, life on the tour, you had to focus on things, but you had to, after life on the tour, you had to evolve and grow and adapt. And that requires. Reflection to leave a, lead a longer, more fulfilling, healthy, and balanced life. How are you going with, with that? Obviously there's never, perfection is never there, but how is that going in terms of that reflection a part of your life?

Cadel: I have to say, the time on the bike I appreciate more because I miss that time to reflect. As an elite cyclist, you spend a lot of hours out by yourself just riding and with your own thoughts and focused on your breathing and your technique and things. Which is kind of meditative and really, you know, I, I noticed that even in the off season, I used to miss that.

I didn't miss not being [00:45:00] tired and like the training, but I'm like that time just to yourself and that space. And so, um, walking with your son.

When he's asleep in the baby jogger or something. They, they became my reflection times from my, stepping away from my sporting career, I put a fair bit of effort into writing a biography. That was really good, actually, for gaining perspective for the sort of, for me, as the next chapters in life, next chapter in life.

That was really cathartic, I think was the word the editor used. which was, I think, really helped me, and it puts into perspective what I did, but how I fit it into the whole thing, and in the end that was sort of made the small bubble that is the world of professional cycling, because it really is this little kind of bubble that you're in.

But to better, observe that and step outside that, that probably helped me. going into this period of my life, but on that whole reflective thing, what I find also just in performance, it's sometimes, and this is something maybe I could have done better when I was an athlete, but sometimes just stepping back and taking a pause and doing nothing in life it's amazing good you become [00:46:00] at problem solving every day, simple things when you're bored.

'cause you've got no distractions and you just, which is what for me, running or or riding is today is, is today. And, uh, we always feel like we're wasting time taking an hour out to do something during the day or something. But then sometimes I find you take an hour out, but your next three or four hours is so much more productive that you're actually, rather than just going, trying to, trying to trudge through, exhausted and not being able to co like, not not perform.

Whatever it is you're doing. Not being as productive as we could be. You're sort of better to take a pause, take some reflection. I remember writing a book, I'd go out at one o'clock in the morning with the dog and walk for half an hour and come back and, oof, everything would go. Yeah, just taking away and, yeah, reflection.

But, uh, 

Hayden: I think that's a great place to kind of, uh, begin to, to wrap up, but I totally agree with you. That ability to slow down, particularly when we're under stress. Slow down, breathe, pause [00:47:00] and reflect even for a minute or two is such an important part of maintaining our well being because so many of us are busy, you know, I often say to people, how are you going, their first response is busy, flat out, busy and they're on automatic pilot just on the treadmill and just to slow down and pause for a short while is really important.

So, uh, it's a nice message to finish with, I think very much appreciate that. Cadel, thank you very much. Is there anything else you want to sort of finish with in terms of any key messages you want to send about what, the topic of health and wellbeing?

Cadel: things on that slowing down and stepping away. Of course we all say say it, but our whole environment around us is geared to keep going, doing like that, and that's where you have to maybe adjust the environment you're in that allows you to step away. to have the intelligence to know, and it relates to that start of the discussion, that circle of control and non control. Because being anxious and stressed about something that you can't actually change, having the intelligence, [00:48:00] because as an athlete you're forcing, forcing, forcing, better, better, improve.

But then sometimes, you know, you can't force a brick wall. So you're better off forcing somewhere else on something that you can actually influence. And, but have that intelligence to control the controls and, and just adapt to the, uh, uncontrollables. Great to

Hayden: Fantastic. Cadel, thank you. I've really appreciated, uh, your time. Uh, and we'll finish up there. Appreciate it.

Cadel: speak with you Hayden.