Hayden: [00:00:00]
Hello and welcome to my reflections on my interview with Carolyn Creswell. I really loved that interview and I'm looking forward to breaking it down with you, and talking about some of the evidence and the research behind some of the things that she was talking about and providing some practical tips, uh, that might help you to implement some of the ideas that came out in my chat with Carolyn.
First thing I want to talk to you about is really understanding behaviour change themes. And one of the frameworks we've used for a long time at Steople is a framework that looks at how you drive positive change and it begins with awareness [00:01:00] and awareness of yourself, your strengths, your weaknesses, and who you are, which begins with reflections and being a reflective kind of person.
Carolyn spoke a fair bit about her self awareness. and how she's, she's built that level of awareness through deep reflective practices about herself and her life over many years. And that was something that led her to understanding purposeful leadership. Caroline spoke a lot about her drive for leading in a very purposeful way.
But you can't lead in a purposeful way if you don't know yourself. Socrates said, know thyself, many years ago. And so since then, there's been a lot of work done around self awareness and purposeful leadership, but they go together. If you don't have self awareness, uh, you're unlikely to have purpose led leadership.
The other thing that's part of purposeful leadership is really about that capacity for reflection. It's really important that we all find time in our busy lives and create space [00:02:00] in our busy lives to reflect on ourselves and how we want to show up, rather than going. on Automatic Pilot and continuing to do what we've always done.
So Caroline spoke a lot about that and how she's developed that ability to reflect and she slowed down to create that space. Something else that's helped with that, she talked about the need to be really mindful of how we show up every day and be deliberate about that. I commented on the fact that a lot of leaders, uh, will think about their achievements and their tasks and their list of things that they have to get done and there's a lot to get done when you're a leader.
It's really important not to get so caught up in that and to spend a little bit of time thinking about how I want to be, not what I want to do. I do remember. A number of, uh, key psychologists in my life that have made the statement, uh, we are human beings, not human doings. And that's something I reflected on when I spoke to Carolyn, that it's really important that we reflect on how we [00:03:00] want to be, not just how we want to do the things that we have to do.
Part of that purposeful leadership comes from self awareness. and that deep reflective capacity and as part of that, it's really important to know what your values are, what you stand for, and again, if you haven't done that kind of work, you can't really be a purposeful leader, unless you've done some reflections on what's important to you as a value.
For example, Carolyn spoke about one of her values at home and at work, which we'll talk about the home side later on, is to be honest and truthful and not to lie. And you might remember she gave the example, if you've listened to this episode around, she made a commitment to her children that she would not lie.
And if she did lie, uh, she would have to pay them 20. she did say she's only had to pay that once. and she does say that. where she can't give an honest answer, she will, uh, say I can't answer that. and so that's one of her values at home. It's [00:04:00] also one of her values at work.
And so that's something that's very important to her. intrinsically and something that's a value that's really important, she uses that as part of purposeful leadership. Now you can't get to that point unless you've done that deep self reflection and understanding of what's important to you, and that requires you to kind of be aware of who you are and what you stand for, which helps you with the deliberate choices that you make.
One of the other things that I commented on, With, Carolyn was that she's incredibly courageous. She's made lots of tough choices along the way. It hasn't all been smooth sailing. And so I asked her where that courage comes from. She spoke about, judgment, not being worried about others judging you.
She spoke about self compassion and she also spoke about some of Renee Brown's work. So let's just have a think about that for a moment. First one is sort of self compassion. She didn't quote Kirsten Neff, but that's really important to [00:05:00] understand the book on, uh, kindness and self compassion.
Uh, and really, which is about the concept of making sure that you are not harsher on yourself than others. That you show some kindness and compassion to yourself. In fact, thinking about the way we talk to ourselves, it's so important to think about do we talk more harshly to ourselves in our head than we do to our friends, our best friends?
How honest are we with ourselves and how compassionate are we with ourselves? Do we show that level of self kindness and self compassion that's needed? Uh, so that's certainly one. Brené Brown talks about the concept of vulnerability being courage, but also she talks about self worth, and it's really important to have a high level of self worth and to love yourself and to have a high positive self regard, regardless of your achievements.
We need to, in my words, decouple your achievements from your own self worth. Part of [00:06:00] that is also learning to not be so concerned about what others might think of us. In fact, I shared a little statement that I'd learnt somewhere along the way, which is, What you think of me is none of my business.
It's a lovely little phrase that I've remembered because it does go to the very heart of what Carolyn was talking about. Really important to not be caught up in others' judgments of you because they're going to go up and down. It's your own level of self worth and self regard and love of yourself and compassion for yourself, regardless of what others will say about you.
And if you can learn. to have a high level of self worth through not judging yourself and being compassionate with yourself, then that gives you the courage to actually take on a number of things and, and risks and things and not be so worried about failure. Uh, in fact, an example she gave around failure was she won the Telstra business woman of the year award, and yet she had applied for it 16 years in a row and failed.[00:07:00]
Now, if she had been worried about failure and judgment of others, And that not had a high level of self worth, then she probably would not have, uh, applied 16 times in a row, which is a great example of, how you need to show courage, to achieve the things you want to achieve and lead a fulfilling life.
Something else that, uh, she spoke about that I think was at a core. of behavior change, uh, and it's one of the six factors that we work with at Steople around positive behavior change, and that's all around the concept of measurement and accountability. If what gets measured gets done, if we don't have a measure or a level of accountability, then it's very hard to demonstrate whether change has taken place.
Carolyn's a big data driven person, and she initially used the example of the aura ring that she has. and she wears this, and it helps her particularly with sleep. She gave the example of how she used to push her body and not sleep [00:08:00] enough. She now says that's the opposite of her attitude.
She values sleep, how important that is to restore the body and the mind. and so to help with that, she has been using an aura ring to be able to give her data and information every night about the quality of her sleep, the time of her sleep and all those kinds of things. And she uses that data. As a framework for understanding for feedback to understand what is going on with sleep and then with that information she can then modify her habits and her behaviors over time to see if over time that is tracking in the right direction so that she is improving the sleep quality, but she wouldn't be able to do that if she didn't have that data and that measurement knowledge.
that was necessary to make the small adjustments to the habits, uh, on a regular basis. So that does fit with our framework around measurement and accountability, that with any habits and any behaviours, we believe that it's really crucial to have some [00:09:00] sort of data, uh, and information to have as a baseline measure.
And then periodically continue to measure so that we can track the changes and we can, uh, know whether we're actually changing or not, but also we have feedback and we have information that we can use to help drive our changes. That source of feedback is crucial as well. If we're not getting, if we're not measuring, we're not getting feedback about whether we're on track or off track.
So the data driven measurement and the feedback systems are something that's crucial to positive behaviour change. Something else that, Carolyn spoke about, I really enjoyed the concept of the art of the graceful no, and I commented on some additional work, that Adam Grant has done around this, uh, he's, uh, got a, wonderful YouTube clip, and a book around this, which is all around disagreeable givers, and Adam Grant's work shows that if we're givers versus takers, we tend to Uh, [00:10:00] by itself, perform better if we're a taker.
rather than a giver. But if we are a giver who learns to say no and put some boundaries around our helpful style, over the longer term, we are going to perform better. The specific example around that is if we're someone who's very helpful and says yes to everything and is a giver. Then we say yes to so many things and then often we actually don't fulfill that promise and we become unreliable because we've said yes to too many things.
And so in our desire to help others and to give to others, we overload ourselves and we become unreliable to others, but also we may be prone to burnout. Whereas if we have learnt about the, in Carolyn's language, the art of the graceful or to set boundaries and be clear on what we will and won't. Then that's going to make sure that the things that we are doing are highly focused on the things that are important to [00:11:00] us, that are aligned to our values, that are purpose driven, and we have time for the important things as long as we can learn to put boundaries around the things that we perhaps need to say no to rather than it being somebody else's need.
It's our need that we need to pause and reflect on and be able to say no gracefully to others and in a way that's not going to cause significant frustration for the other person. So there is an art and a skill of putting boundaries around and saying no. Something else that, uh, Caroline spoke about that I thought worthy of, uh, sort of reflecting on is certainly in my book, I talk a lot about social norms and so we spoke about social norms.
We spoke about social norms in the context of her children. Uh, she has four children that are, uh, teenage or slightly later, uh, years. And she shared a story around how she had suggested to her son, uh, when he was younger that if he didn't [00:12:00] drink until he was 18, that he, uh, would be able to get a car.
And, uh, when he was about 16, He actually called Carolyn up and said, you know, I'm at a party, I want to have a drink. And her response was, well, it's, it's up to you. That's your choice and your decision. But the deal of the car is off the table. He then did have a few drinks and then contacted her.
I spoke to her later that night or the next day and said, Oh, I didn't really like that. Didn't want to do it. And I want to go back to the deal again. And I want to have. No more drinks at all for two years is the deal still on and Carolina shared that she said, well, I have to speak to my husband about that.
and, uh, to your father and they had a conversation and agreed that, uh, they would give him, you know, one more chance to do this. And he didn't drink from then until he was, until he was 18, I think. And, he also had, he had motivation, but he, it was his own choice. and it was something that he was able to hang on to in a social and peer situation where he was able to tell [00:13:00] his peers and his young mates.
I'm not going to have a drink while you're having a drink because I'm going to get a car and that's what I want and say all they all knew that he that's why he didn't drink he wanted the car and uh, and you know, it was easy then for him to be able to resist the social and peer pressure when he was able to say That was an interesting story on social and peer pressure for, teenage children. it kind of goes to, first of all, being aware of the social norms of the groups that you belong to, whether we're a parent or a child. What are the social norms of the community or society that we belong to? Pausing, reflecting and making a conscious choice.
Do we want to follow those social norms? Or do we want to actually make a choice to be a little different from the norms and if so, how are we going to deliberately choose some behaviors that are not in line with the current social norms? Now if we relate that to the world of work and leadership, there are many[00:14:00] social norms, in our Western culture, but also in, in the organizations that we work for.
Often we're unaware, and unconscious when it comes to understanding those social norms. So the starting point is to be aware of the social norms that exist within your organization and within your community. And then pause. reflect and make a conscious choice as to whether you follow those or whether you deviate or modify significantly from the norms of the the group that you belong to and also to do that to be aware of why You're choosing to be different from the social norm group.
What is your purpose? What are your values at work and at home? So Carolyn certainly was able to demonstrate some stories around how she was able to Be aware of social norms in the workplace as well as at home and apply those same Sort of rules of deliberately choosing whether to follow those or be a little different That links to something she also spoke about, [00:15:00] which is about bringing the whole person to work.
Uh, she's a strong believer in that, and certainly so am I, espousing the whole person, rather than saying, well, you can't really turn on and turn off the person you are. And those that try to do that are probably not aligned to authentic leadership. Uh, values from, uh, particularly today's followers who, who want and in fact demand authenticity in the way that we lead.
and Carolyn certainly had a number of examples of values. That are her personal values, which is also what she brings to work. But she did talk very clearly about, you know, we're one person, we're not two people, you're not one person that works and one person that is at home. Uh, it's really important that we kind of understand that and bring the whole authentic, true self to work.
So I really enjoyed, uh, what she said about that. And I guess, uh, last couple of things that I want to share in relation to my reflections on what she said were, going back to the data side of things. [00:16:00] When I asked her at the end, is there anything else that you would like to say, uh, that we haven't had a chance to say, she, she went back to emphasize data again, uh, and she gave a couple of examples about what I'd call data driven well being.
And so she shared, uh, beyond the Aura story that we mentioned earlier, she shared the, the idea DNA testing as well as the idea of blood testing and she said we've got so much advanced technology these days that we can go and have some blood tests and understand what's happening to our body we can go and have DNA tests and she actually shared an example of how she'd done that recently and in that you know I was able to recognize with the data that came back that in fact Drinking too much green tea for herself was actually not helpful for her DNA in her body and so forth and yet Drinking caffeine was something that was okay for her.
So regardless of that example We've got data. We've got [00:17:00] access to amazing data on our bodies, on our physical body, whether it's DNA testing, blood testing, using aura rings, using your Apple watch, there's all sorts of data that we can collect. So why not use the data that's available to us in today's society to help us understand and measure and get feedback on what's happening with regard to wellbeing.
Use that data to help. drive small, tiny, uh, focused behavior changes on a daily basis, and then continue to measure regularly to see how you're going on that journey. So I think for me, that really stood out really strongly in terms of how do we use data to make decisions about our own well being?
And are we doing that, often enough, regularly enough, and powerfully enough, and in a focused way? uh, one or two other things before I close this out, if I go back to habits and behaviour change, we've spoken about awareness being really important to behaviour change, motivation is something we haven't really emphasised enough here, and for [00:18:00] me, motivation comes from a number of places, we can have motivation towards something, or motivation away from something.
Carolyn is certainly somebody who demonstrates the power of motivation towards something. To become motivated, to be courageous in her decision making, the starting point is awareness of herself, but also the work that she's done around her own purpose, her own values and aspirations. She's very clear on the kind of life she wants to lead, on the need to lead a fulfilling life and what that means.
And she in fact even says, We only have one life. It's not a dress rehearsal. So she's very clear on that. She's done some deep thinking about that. And therefore she's, she's purposeful and purpose led. That goes to motivation. So she makes courageous decisions because she knows where she wants to go, and how she wants to lead her life.
And in leading her life in a certain way, that gives her courage in the moment to make some decisions that perhaps others don't make. So I think Motivation, awareness, and then motivation for change and motivation [00:19:00] towards something is, is really crucial. The measurement of the progress and the feedback you might get along the way are all crucial elements of positive behavior change.
And I know that I haven't actually worked as a coach with Carolyn, but a lot of those things she's talking about are intuitively aligned to the sorts of things that I believe in, in regard to the keys to driving sustainable, positive, long term. change yourself. In terms of just wrapping up now, I want to say that, um, those things that she spoke about, the awareness, the data, the purposeful leadership, the need to be courageous, the art of the graceful know, um, the social norms at home and at work, the need to be a whole person, bring yourself to work a whole person, all those are key lessons around How we need to learn to, both drive strong leadership for performance and wellbeing along the way.
So, in summary, I want to thank Carolyn Creswell for [00:20:00] her time because I know how precious time is for Carolyn and she gave us her significant time, which I very much appreciate for sharing the stories there. I want to encourage the listeners. to, uh, subscribe if you enjoyed this and, uh, also leave some reviews and share this podcast with others who you think might value the insights from myself and from Carolyn Creswell.
