Ep. 40 - 72 Hours in Darkness: The Impact of A Darkness Retreat - Mark Clauson

Entering the Dark

In this thought-provoking episode, Lisa reunites with friend Mark Clauson to explore his remarkable 72-hour darkness retreat experience.

They delve into ancient practices, discuss the benefits of such retreats, and share Mark's transformative journey marked by deep introspection, confrontation of inner issues, and profound insights into duality, shame, and sexuality. Throughout their conversation, Mark reflects on the significance of self-awareness, non-judgment, and the joy of living in the present.

Humour, wisdom, and lighthearted anecdotes paint a vivid picture of Mark's quest for personal growth and balance, making this episode an inspiring narrative on embracing one's full range of emotions and honouring the body.

If you’re interested in experiencing this medicine contact: sotrufarm@gmail.com This location is in Central Alberta, Canada. It’s a quiet and intimate location for your darkness retreat. These retreats offer a holistic experience, including comfortable accommodations, delicious meals, and continuous somatic and therapeutic support throughout your stay.

Connect With Mark on Instagram


Work 1:1 with Lisa

00:00 Introduction and Personal Reflections

00:32 Welcoming Mark Clauson

01:01 Exploring Darkness Retreats

03:00 Mark's Background and Journey

05:16 Mark's Darkness Retreat Experience

07:35 Life in Central America Post-Retreat

29:04 Heightened Senses in Darkness

45:17 Reflections on Healing and Wholeness

57:44 The Illusion of Control

58:24 Embracing the Unexpected

59:37 Reclaiming Sexuality and Body Positivity

01:02:12 Forgiveness and Self-Love

01:12:11 Judgment, Awareness, and Compassion

01:21:45 Integration and Daily Practices

01:40:16 Embracing Duality: Joy and Pain

01:41:32 Balancing Lightness and Depth

01:42:11 The Importance of Playfulness

01:44:09 Reflecting on Chronic Pain and Joy

01:47:54 Gratitude and Life's Challenges

02:00:20 Integration and Healing

02:14:41 The Power of Laughter and Imperfection

02:21:17 Final Thoughts and Farewell

Transcript

mark: 0:00

I think I've been super busy most of my life, just like many of us are, I'm guessing. You know, constantly looking outside of myself for, for guidance, for an experience, for wisdom, for, you know, what the fuck am I to do now? And so I really just wanted to give myself the opportunity to sit with myself and see what was available when there was nothing for me to turn to, nothing for me to do, no obligations. And yeah, it, it didn't disappoint.

Lisa: 0:44

Why, hello, my friends. It has been a minute since I've done an interview and it was just so wonderful to have my friend Mark Klassen joining me as I broke the seal. back into having guests on the show. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to spend some time in complete darkness? I hadn't even heard of this kind of sensory deprivation voyage until a few months ago and I was fascinated by it. So for those of you unfamiliar, a darkness retreat involves spending extended periods in complete darkness, stripping away the external stimuli to confront and explore one's inner world. And it's actually an ancient practice that has roots in Tibetan Buddhism, Ayurvedic retreats, and Yogini Ayurveda. initiations. Monks and yogis would retreat into the darkness of a cave for days, months, and sometimes years. More recently though, it's been gaining popularity as some well known humans such as Aubrey Marcus and Aaron Rogers have been giving the darkness a go, experiencing their own depth in the retreat. of the dark. So today we are diving into Mark's experience of 72 hours in complete darkness, and I had the honor of supporting Mark therapeutically and somatically before, during, and after, which is included in part of the darkness retreat package that I will talk more about. So if you've been interested in this kind of medicine, then pull up a chair and have a listen. You are in for a real treat. This episode is packed with humor, wisdom, and a detailed reflection of Mark's time in the dark. Mark takes us on a journey of his powerful experiences. We explore duality, shame, sexuality, judgment, joy, and coming alive in the dark. We talk about life as an intricate dance of light and shadow, where our deepest experiences shape our most profound growth. So who is this Mark character anyway? Well, to me, he is a dear friend. He's my personal embroidery coach. He is a creative, an artist, and also a kind, gentle, hilarious, and fun loving guy who has a great sense of style. Mark is also a son, a brother, uncle, friend. He's a former athlete, storyteller, and free spirit. He's a lover of all things free. food, eclectic music, crafting and movement based. He's a space sharer and a laughter purveyor, a people person through and through and someone who thrives on intimate conversation and shared meaningful experiences. He's held many different careers in his life, from bartending to real estate, pipeline construction, acting, personal training, and many others. He currently heads up sales for a Canadian SaaS company. He has an adorable dog. and is taking time traveling through Central America following his darkness retreat. So for those of you interested in experiencing a darkness retreat, I will leave the contact information in the show notes for the only one I know of in Alberta. So if you are a local, even if you're not and want to dive into this kind of journey, I'll have more on that partway through the show. So, without further ado, Please help me in welcoming the lovely multi talented Mark Clausen to the show. https://web.descript.com/a7742e4c-1e39-48f9-b32d-08fa8a2112ec/a8a96 Hi, Mark.

mark: 5:05

Lisa.

Lisa: 5:07

Yay. Finally, we get to have this conversation. I'm so happy that you're here and I've really been looking forward to having this chat with you. It's such a pleasure to have you on and yeah, to learn about your darkness retreat, to see how that has shifted your life and your perspective and your relationship to yourself. So thank you so much for coming on.

mark: 5:32

Yeah. The honor is mine, Lisa. Thank you to you and your listeners for affording me the space. I'm excited to be here and, and dig in.

Lisa: 5:40

Yeah. So Mark and I have known each other since what, like spring of 2023?

mark: 5:47

Yeah.

Lisa: 5:48

Yeah. We met at a community Kirtan. And for those of you who don't know what that is, it's like a call and response Chanting with instruments and just good people in good times. I remember before we met a couple of the people that I was just meeting for the first time. We're like, yeah, I wonder what Mark's going to be wearing. And I remember thinking to myself, oh, that's interesting. And you did not disappoint. I think you were wearing your like. Orange blue blocking glasses and this beautiful ornate like caftan.

mark: 6:26

Oh, yes. Yeah. That's always been, uh, a way that I express myself in the world is just through through what I wear and how I show up and I'm never afraid to have fun. Yeah, it was, that was, that was such a great evening and a lot of fun to share in that with you and all those folks here at the

Lisa: 6:45

community. So, yeah.

mark: 6:46

Yeah.

Lisa: 6:47

And so shortly after that, my husband and I moved to the island Vancouver Island in Canada for six months. And then we came back to Alberta and we ended up moving on to the same property as Mark. So. We've had lots of time to become really, really dear friends and have lots of epic conversations around all kinds of different topics, which I'm sure will pop up into our conversation today. But we also walk our dogs together and it's just been really beautiful getting to know you, Mark. So again, super pumped that we're able to have this conversation today.

mark: 7:26

Likewise. So grateful.

Lisa: 7:28

Hmm. So before we jump into today's topic, which will likely be many where are you? Where are you located right now?

mark: 7:37

Uh, I'm hanging out in Central America for the first time in my life. Uh, following my darkness retreat, I felt the need to, get out and do some exploring on my own. Uh, so I made a, booked a, booked a trip to Bukete, which is in the, uh, northern province, one of the northern provinces in Panama high elevation, surrounded by rainforest. It is gorgeous here. So many trees and, uh, butterflies and birds and wildlife, there's a, there's a gorgeous river that runs almost right through town pretty well and yeah, I've just Loving getting away and still with myself and yeah, just having a change of scene, eating different food, listening to, uh, a beautiful language, which is Spanish. And, uh, you know, there's not too many people that, Uh, laugh at me or give me a, what the fuck are you trying to say by the way? Great. You know, order my third coffee for the day or you know, do whatever I'm doing. So it's been quite a, quite an amazing experience truthfully.

Lisa: 8:45

Hmm. And what's your favorite thing been? Like what's your favorite, I don't know, excursion or adventure or something you've done that's, that's been stand out? You

mark: 8:56

know, one of the most, or one of the best things I think just happened this morning, which was going and putting my feet and my legs in the Chakiri river. Which is the river that runs through town, and it's really fast and pretty shallow but surrounded by rainforests. And, yeah, I was, I was spending some time intentionally grounding, and Being with the water and the sounds and the earth and you know, praying that this podcast goes half decent.

Lisa: 9:30

As we do.

mark: 9:32

We do. Yeah, and it was quite a beautiful moment, but outside of that, I mean, like the people here are just so nice and genuine and welcoming and Yeah, I've met some really amazing people here. So, outside of that, the coffee is some of the best in the world. And so, I mean, it's, it's not coffee like, uh, like Mama Lisa makes, uh, at the farm there, but it is, it is very incredible. So, yeah, a couple of

Lisa: 9:56

things there. So speaking of back on the farm and your darkness retreat. So let's go there. What the first thing I want to ask is what led you to the darkness retreat and you can choose any start point because this could be years in the making or months in the making or,

mark: 10:19

yeah, no big, big time. I think Well, I think I've always been really curious and I've, I've had my fair share of medicine ceremonies. I, I was lucky enough to have a near death experience and, and not die. You know, I've had, I've had a lot of big moments in my life and a lot of those have involved a substance or something outside of myself in order to, To create really a profound experience for me. And so the darkness of tree really appealed to me just because. It's yourself and the dark and you know, you have your food provided for you. You have running water in a bed, you're safe. 5 percent of our mind is conscious, is aware, is you know, worried about our food, our safety how we show up in public, our job, our relationships, et cetera. And 95 percent of our mental, uh, capacity is unconscious. And. I think I've been super busy most of my life, just like many of us are, I'm guessing. You know, constantly looking outside of myself for, for guidance, for an experience, for wisdom, for, you know, what the fuck am I to do now? And so I really just wanted to give myself the opportunity to sit with myself and see what was available when there was nothing for me to turn to, nothing for me to do, no obligations. And yeah, it, uh, it didn't disappoint. Uh, yeah, it was, it was incredibly profound and something that I think, uh, so many people would benefit from. Like I said, I've had. Many plant medicine ceremonies I've been fortunate enough to sit with wise medicine men and women and plant teachers and, uh, that's been an integral part of growth and healing in my life, but it's not for everyone. Just as seafood isn't for everyone, or, you know, downhill logboarding, like, I mean, look, like, you know, right dose, right setting. Um, that setting intention. But I think that, you know, in my experience, the dark was just so wise, so gentle so ever present. And I think for people who are interested in, you know, who are curious, just like me of, Hey, you know, like what. What is behind all the busyness, behind the need to to produce, to be productive, to be human doings and not human beings, right? What's, uh, what's behind all of that? And so Yeah, I think probably just curiosity and there's a quote from Jung, which goes something to the degree of, until you meet your unconscious on the inside, it will manifest outwardly in the circumstances of your life and you will call it fate. Hmm.

Lisa: 13:27

Love that quote. Yeah.

mark: 13:29

Oh man. Yeah. Like really, really powerful. And, and so there's been many times in my life when I've acted unconsciously You know, I haven't been in right accord or right action. And, you know, even going along with that, there's been many moments in my life where I've been addicted to things. And you know, in my mind, logically, I'm like, Hey, like, this probably isn't good for me. And is this actually like addressing. What I'm looking to address here, or is this just perpetuating more dis ease, separation, anxiety, fear. And so in order to look at some of those things, I think I had to kind of like clear the table and the darkness provided such a gracious and beautiful container for me to You know, dip a toe in. I definitely didn't dive in because I think anytime you're looking into your unconscious, you need to be mindful of it. Treat it with respect.

Lisa: 14:31

Yeah. Well, I mean, you brought up so many important points there. Uh, one of which being like how often do we reach outside of ourselves to look for salvation? How often are we grasping at others or other experiences or circumstances to bring us back to ourselves? And so in the dark, I mean, of course you can still find distraction there, but I would assume Not having done that for myself yet, that it's much harder. There's not many places that you can go other than like the recesses of your own mind and your own body and how profound.

mark: 15:17

Well, yeah, there's only so many times you could talk into the fan, right. And you know, it only takes you so long to eat your two meals a day. And, uh, Yeah, what is, what is possible when we, when we afford ourselves that space is you know, I only spent three days in there, 72 hours which to some people might sound like a lot, and, you know, even to myself, truthfully, before going in, I was like, holy shit.

Lisa: 15:46

That's like an eternity.

mark: 15:49

Like, that's gonna be a long ass time, man. Like, you know what you can do with 72 hours? Some of the, some of the folks on the farm we've After every meal, this has been as a result of some of our great friends introducing this to us. But after meals, we take three minutes together and we just sit and sit in quiet meditation. And so, so comparing that to thinking about that, I'm like, sometimes that three minutes is a long ass time. And so, you know, there's a lot of three minutes in 72 hours. And yet it was, it was just right. It's just right.

Lisa: 16:25

Now, you brought up your near death experience and I'm wondering within the darkness container if there was like a through line, like something that felt I don't know the word I want to use, like maybe familiar or maybe uh, comforting or like there was like a presence. I don't know if I'm formulating this question right, but yeah. Yeah. Just wondering about the through line there.

mark: 16:53

Yeah. No. Great question. I'm Canadian to me. Yeah. No. Yeah. Great question. And absolutely there was and I can remember having conversations with you prior to delving into the darkness and, you know, having a feeling of, I think this is going to have, you know, maybe some common threads, uh, or a through line, like you're saying. And. It absolutely did. I think one of the things I learned and continue to learn following my near death experience is that everything is welcome. That, you know, the darkness didn't, it held no judgment for me. There is nothing that the darkness hasn't seen. And that is just an incredibly comforting thing. Because I find that so often in my life, I'm, I'm quick to place judgment. And you know, I think to a degree, humans and, and our monkey brains, we're, we're meaning making machines, right? That's how we survive. That's how we label, categorize, know what we should be doing and shouldn't be doing, what is safe or unsafe. It's, it's a part of this experience. However, everything that came up for me in the darkness as well as in, in my near death experience was it's perfect, man. You know, it's, it's actually just perfect. And You know, we're never alone, like the darkness, you know, people think, and I thought, you know, going into the darkness, you know, what's going to wait for me there, but it was actually just one of the most palpable and potent mirrors and containers I've ever been fortunate enough to, to sit in and with. And yeah, like, I think the big thing is the consistency and the presence that's available in the darkness because you think that, uh, you know, there's, there's really nothing there, but there's actually everything there and there's actually a beautiful, uh, poem that I'd like to share here, which is from the Tao Te Ching, which I think really speaks to this, which is we join spokes together in a wheel, but it is the center hole that makes the wagon move. We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want. We hammer wood for a house. But it is the inner space that makes it livable. We work with being, but non being is what we use. And so that's speaking of wuji, which is Chinese philosophy and qigong. But it's translated as the great nothingness or the supreme emptiness. And it's often expressed in, uh, calligraphy or a circle. So a single brushstroke, not a complete circle. But in that container, everything is actually held and it seems like there may be nothing there, but in reality, it is ripe and fertile and full of everything that we, we, we can't place our finger on that we can't name. You know, that which is ineffable, that we have no words for. Yeah, did I answer your question even there?

Lisa: 20:48

I think so. There we go. Yeah, well, no, I think, yeah, you did. And thinking about that poem you just shared and the incomplete. circle kind of signifying that our work here is never done.

mark: 21:07

And

Lisa: 21:09

like how beautiful and by work, I mean, empowerment. I mean, growth, I mean, expansion of that awareness and of our own containers. And that poem also speaks to, you know, so much of the work that I do in semantics is all about creating space. Inside of your physical container, you know, and what, what a beautiful journey that is to experience more space. And the thing is with that is that it actually has to be experienced. We can talk about it all day long. We can intellectualize it all day long, but until we actually have the experience of what it's like. Opening our eyes and seeing something in a new way because of the space that we've created inside of ourselves and holy fuck like what? A difference, you know, so to Experience yourself in the dark In presence and this is actually funny because it's reminded me of a conversation we had before when you were like I'm already thinking about like what I'm going to post on Instagram after

mark: 22:14

all

Lisa: 22:18

the conversations I'm going to have with people after, you know, and we all do it. It's like we fight presence so much. We fight like being in presence with ourselves and with others because it requires us to like be here now. It requires us to be like vulnerable in the moment with ourselves and with another human being. And so I think it's just, you know, we're always running from this thing that's going to provide us with the most amount of peace, the most amount of serenity, the most amount of like tender loving care. And so yeah,

mark: 22:57

because it's scary and it's, you know, I, I, I think that you know, to speak to that a little bit, I think I often wish, and I don't think I'm alone that, you know, healing and this life is more complicated than it actually is. I'm sure we'll speak about duality today because that was a huge lesson that was. In the forefront, in the darkness for me you know, there's how often do we find ourselves with, another thing to chase an accolade to acquire an experience to have before we're ready, before we're whole healed and here, right. It's always one step away, one breath away one experience way and it's out there.

Lisa: 23:40

That's right.

mark: 23:41

Yeah. Yeah. When in reality, what we're seeking is, is truly in here. It's it's within each and every one of us. And, you know, that's where the magic is. And when we can focus our energy and expand that internal awareness, the same vibration and truth that lives in the world outside of us, emanates and resonates and, and all the truth in our material universe is reflected Coherent with the peace, the tranquility, the wholesomeness, the duality that exists women are very being and like, what a fucking trip that is you know, like, what can we afford space for? And as I spoke to earlier, our unconscious mind is 95 percent of. of what is up here. So it's like, what is available when we give ourself a breath, when we give ourself a moment, when we focus on the other person, when we're present for that hug. Yeah, or that kiss or that bite of food or the feeling of the rain on our skin, you know, like, like, it's all right here. And, and anytime we place our healing, our wholesomeness, Our presence in something, someone outside of ourselves, we're one step away. We're one step away.

Lisa: 25:26

Mark, that's it right there.

mark: 25:35

Lisa and I had some conversations prior to you on how many times we're going to say, It's all right here. It's all right here. All these like cliche things, but I truly feel like, you know, there's a reason, you know, those things are cliche, but they're, they're fucking true, man. Yeah. And yeah, it's simple things like simple truths. And, you know, when we can empower ourselves and come home to ourselves, who knows what comes up? Like, I mean, I'm constantly amazed at what bubbles up for me when when we get rid of the need to predict or label or categorize or or know, you know, what's in Bardo, what's in the space between what's in limbo, what's in that data brainwave, what is willing to be discovered when, when we just sit, when we just breathe. When we just see, when we just walk and we just feel,

Lisa: 26:48

you Hey guys, on today's show, we are talking about darkness retreats, and my friends over at So True Farms are offering these epic retreats in rural Alberta. The space is nestled in the heart of central Alberta, just a stone's throw away from the breathtaking Dry Island Buffalo Jump Provincial Park. It's a quaint rural farm that captures the essence of idyllic country living. As you approach, the landscape unfolds into a patchwork of golden fields framed by gently rolling hills that stretch towards the horizon. This land is alive with the gentle hum of nature and stunning landscape. It's quiet, it's intimate, and a perfect location for your darkness retreat. These retreats offer a holistic experience, including comfortable accommodations, delicious meals. And continuous somatic and therapeutic support throughout your stay from yours truly, me. For more information, I'll leave the contact in the show notes. Now back to the show.

mark: 28:05

know, we're in this human body for a reason and it's not an error. You know, these, these bodies are not faulty and the fact that we can feel pleasure and can feel pain as well. Yeah, there's a reason for that.

Lisa: 28:20

Well, yeah. And I think that like our mind and our intellect, that's like just one pathway. So it's like we can spend our entire life just being in that one pathway and then not discovering all of these other pathways that are available. And so Fuck, you know, like being able to feel the rain and be in the moment and Sense the way that things smell the way things taste the way things feel on our skin moment to moment It's mindfulness and bringing all of those things into our bodily awareness Really gives us information more information than just our intellect alone

mark: 29:04

And

Lisa: 29:04

so really bringing those senses alive, and I'm sure in the dark, as I know we, we talked about before, it's like you're losing one of your senses, but then the other senses are likely more heightened. And so I'm wondering if you experienced that as well, like this, like heightened state of your other senses, whether that be like taste, touch, smell, whatever it is.

mark: 29:28

Yeah, big time. I did. Yeah, I mean, we rely on these five senses and like you're saying, when one is gone, you're just like, holy shit, how am I going to like operate here? But it's beautiful because Yeah, like I, maybe this is a story I've told myself, I don't think that my sense of smell is that great, or maybe it's true, I don't know, but people are just like, smell this, I'm like, I don't know, I don't really smell much, or, you know, like, I would be the worst, like, wine snob in the world, I'd be like, mmm, smells, grapey, you know, lots of grapes in that one but, I can remember our dear friend and one of the facilitators from our Darkness Retreat she brought me food all the time, and she would always tell me what was what she was bringing me. And honestly, just like listening to her voice. I heard her saying words and, like, describing what it was, and I was also just, like, enjoying the sound of someone's voice, and it wasn't, like, two seconds before she had gone out the front door that I was like, what the fuck did she bring me? Like, I don't even, like, you know, like, I know she told me and I can remember, like, sitting in my little chair with my little table. In the darkness and feeling around in the basket and being like, what's in this container and opening up and like fucking crying about this like beautiful bagel that I could smell and just being like, Oh my God, you have bagel. I remember she was bringing me a bagel. Like, Oh wow. Like, Oh, I'm like smelling, like smelling like the butter. And yeah. You know, there was another time, like I love pickles and like big pickle guy, I love pickles, I don't care how you cut them, what they're in, give them to me. And I can remember I like dropped a piece of like my pickle and I thought like, I looked everywhere and looked at like the basket and like a bunch of the containers and stuff. And I was so distraught. And then I like found this little piece of pickle that I dropped in one of the other containers and I was just elated. I was just like, oh my god, this is like the best moment ever and just like crying about finding this stuff and like one inch by one inch little piece of pickle and you know smelling it and chomping into it and like the juices and you know the sour and like yeah so like taste and smell and sound like I said the sound of Your voice because you brought food for me once and then our other friends voice and and then my own voice on day three, I can remember sitting there and just doing, you know, having the urge to just let some sounds out, you know, let some like guttural groaning, moaning, humming, toning, whatever came on. I was just like letting it out. And there was a feeling of being able to see the vibration and the sound emanating through the space. And, Understanding that, man, this is happening outside of this container as well in our day to day. Uh, like what we, we are emanating vibration, energy, and spirit into our material universe. And. Once it's out, it's out, and that was powerful for me, and, you know, made me think of the seven months prior when I had no voice. I had an operation that went wrong, and I had no voice, or I could essentially whisper for about seven months, and so That was incredibly powerful. And I can remember when I had regained my voice a few weeks prior and even sitting in the darkness, they're doing some humming and toning and groaning. Just becoming aware and conscious of how I want to use my voice in the world, to myself, to others, to the trees, to the plants, to my dog, to everyone I meet and. You know, asking the darkness in myself and spirit, may I speak truth, and may I be a conduit for truth in my life, and may this voice resonate in a manner that brings about more harmony, more peace, more love, more integrity, more connection. More healing. Yeah. So once again, I think I answered your question. I have a bunch of other places following that, which is cool. That's how it goes.

Lisa: 34:34

Yeah. That's how it goes. Well, also I was just thinking about what you said about not remembering what our friend had said, but really like feeling her,

mark: 34:46

you

Lisa: 34:46

know, so it's like there's this energetic undertone. That happens when we're speaking to someone or the intention in which we're approaching someone with. And so, my guess would be that the undertone of what you were experiencing was care. And support and like the giddiness because I remember being with our mutual friend in the kitchen and being like, so stoked, like Mark is going to love this so much. We're so excited for him to be able to eat this. Like every time there was a meal, we're just like, Oh, this is going to be so good. And all of that's going into the food and all of that's going into you. You know, through via like us and of course the, the medium of food. So I just think it's really profound and beautiful how when you're in silence or when you're in this kind of meditative state, Your intuition and all of these other things that maybe you're not present to normally you can suddenly Feel you know Way more than ever before like feeling someone's care Over food feeling someone's support even through when they're not speaking about support, you know It's all right there But I also find it really interesting because you spoke of losing your voice. So you're like on this journey of dampening your senses. Whether that's by choice or not. Anyway, it's just a thought I had right now. So you lost your voice So that was a whole thing that you had to get used to Communicating in a different way with people

mark: 36:39

and then

Lisa: 36:39

by choice you chose not to see for three days And so I just I find that really interesting how Something intuitive within you is like, oh I want to experiment I want to see what this is like, anyways, just a thought, I don't know what it means, but

mark: 37:01

no, no, no. I, uh, well, maybe that's, you know, coming up as a result of the 95 percent of my mental capacity, which is unconscious. Right. And I feel like when we, uh, are open to it, our soul spirit God, what, whatever word you want to use, I don't really care. I feel like when we're open to it, we get nudged in these directions and I think there's been so many moments in my life, you know, when speaking of my, we're thinking of my healing journey in particular where, you know, uh, there's been whispers, you know, there's been little whispers and there's been little nudges and you know, the voice perpetually gets a little bit louder and it's like, Hey, like, you know. Maybe it's all of a sudden like, you know, little pokes in the chest until it's you know, riding a dirt bike into two trees and breaking 10 balls and collapsing my lung and rupturing my heart in two places, you know, life and my, my spirit being like, dude, slow the fuck down. Like slow down for a heartbeat here because there's shit that we're trying to show you and expose to you and bring to light, uh, for you and with you and through you that have the possibility of not only illuminating and creating more wholeness within yourself, but also in your community in the world in this experience as a whole. So. Listen, listen up here and. I do resonate with what you were saying and I hadn't actually thought about that truthfully. Which is crazy because I'm like so high. So I'm like, I'm usually aware of all the things and like nothing ever gets past me. Uh, yeah, that's a really interesting thing. And I wonder if there's a part of this I'm on in this period of time that I'm Lucky enough to be experiencing right now is pointing to what is behind it all.

Lisa: 39:24

Yeah.

mark: 39:25

And what is underneath it all and what is there void of these five senses, void of my job, void of my relationship status, void of. Who I claim to be this iteration, you know, Mark Alexander Clausen, this meat suit and this body that I've known for these 33 years and I've poured so much energy and tension and stories into what's behind all of that. And the interesting thing about this experience is it's always yes and it's always just a partial truth. So while I am Mark and I am this body and I have my experiences and my stories and my relationship I'm also so much more and Navigating and finding space in between both my humanness and the divinity Uh, is is where we operate And it's been really super interesting to, uh, and such a gift to be, you know, voided my voice. Like, I mean, when I was in it and I was in the thro of it, you know, you saw me for a lot of it. He was, supported me through a lot of it, and I was so lucky to have so many beautiful people and, and the land and to support me in in those times. And, shit. Sorry. I don't know where I was going with that. It

Lisa: 41:17

happens.

mark: 41:18

Oh,

Lisa: 41:19

yes. Oh,

mark: 41:21

yeah

Lisa: 41:23

You're talking about losing your voice and being supported and yeah.

mark: 41:27

Yes. Thank you. That's all I needed I found that in life we always get to a point and maybe we don't in this life But maybe it's beyond that we get to a point where we can look back on all of it and smile We can look back on all of it and be at peace with what transpired with my actions, with others actions, with how shit went down. Like I found that and you know, so many things that I've gone through in my life, uh, that in the moment I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Like anything but this, literally anything but this, please, please, this is not what I want. And. All those things that I went through, I get to a point where I see the merit. I see even just a fraction or a facet of why. Yeah. And, and it's so, so damn beautiful. And so even with my voice. You know, just being like, ah, yeah. Mm, wow. Maybe that happened so that I am more intentional with my voice for the rest of my days. Mm. So that I can, I can choose to speak truth and speak with love, and am I gonna fuck shit up? No doubt. Like, I mean, right after the Darkness retreat, one of the things I was like, man, may I. May I not cause pain, you know, may I not, may I not cause separation, strife, anguish, may I not perpetuate separation in myself and others in, in this iteration and just the other day I had a phone call with a dear friend of mine and my actions caused her pain. And I'm like, I'm like two weeks out of this darkness retreat where I'm like, Oh, bliss out. And I'm going to be such like a, such an amazing human and once again duality because yes, I am an amazing person and I know that and my heart is in the right place and I will cause pain. Yeah. And you know, That's part of it. And I think that was like, yeah, I was going to ramble into more lessons from the darkness, but I don't know if you want it to interject or if I should stop for a second.

Lisa: 44:02

Well, I just think, you know, that's very human of you, Mark.

mark: 44:08

Yes. Yes. Thank you. You

Lisa: 44:10

know, it's just like, I don't know. We have all these intentions about, you know, how we're going to be once we complete this thing, you know, and then life provides us options to be the opposite of that.

mark: 44:22

Or,

Lisa: 44:25

or to be in line with that. And I think that, you know, that's all perfect in and of itself. It's just more, more time that we get to practice. Being better to ourself and to others and we actually do that by fucking up like a bunch

mark: 44:43

over

Lisa: 44:43

and over and over and over again So, you know while it's valiant to go for that perfect state as we kind of spoke of before It's like this is about connection not perfection. It's in connection. We hurt people and for me It's how we repair that hurt, how we apologize and then take action towards being better. That's how we show people that we care. By not just like letting it, you know, linger in the ethers this hurt. And so, yeah, I think that's beautiful that you brought that up. And yes, I do want to know more about your experiences in the dark. Mainly, well, not mainly, but also you spoke of this, like what's behind the busyness. And I'm wondering if you have. Like a partial answer to that. Oh, dang

mark: 45:43

Mm mm mm mm. See, I feel this, uh, you know, words and expressions and this very limited vehicle that we have for explaining, uh, experience and. spiritual journeys and the essence of this thing we call life is, is so very limited. It is, it is but a fraction. Yes. I actually You could, you could explain

Lisa: 46:37

it in an interpretive dance.

mark: 46:40

Yeah.

Lisa: 46:42

So

mark: 46:43

I'm

Lisa: 46:45

kidding, but you can if you want to.

mark: 46:48

Okay. I don't know if we have enough room on the screen for me to do that. So, like, I would be, I would be fully into it. Okay. So there's this, there's this, uh, an ancient religion out of India, Jainism. Jainism which talks about both, well, it talks about the fact that truth and reality are complex, and, uh, it talks about humans looking to express, express and explain, and, and describes the fact that it's always just a partial expression of the truth. And, you know, the same can be said of, you know, experiences it's, it's valid in some respects, or perhaps just one perspective incomplete. And when speaking of, like, the darkness or to your question, what's behind the busyness? I mean, I can, I can rattle some things off here and try to explain it, but just as any, Magical container darkness retreat, plant medicine journey, sensory deprivation tank. What, you know, meditation, yoga, whatever your medium that you choose. They're complex and there's multiple aspects and we can only ever try to explain what is experienced, but we can never actually give people the experience on us. You know, through right action or choice, they find themselves in that moment and able to experience it.

Lisa: 48:31

Totally. Like I think busyness, like busyness masks different things for all of us. So, for me, when I was super busy, hard to believe now because I take things real easy, like I'm still busy, but I think I'm much more efficient because I take time to myself to not be busy. But I would say even, you know, like 10, 15 years ago, I actually didn't know how to be with myself.

mark: 49:01

I didn't

Lisa: 49:01

know how to be with the emotions and my physical body and all the pain that was just like bubbling underneath the surface. And so for me, the busyness, it helped me distract from that. It helped me to maintain this like mask of I got my shit together. I'm like making all that money. I'm doing all these things and you know, I'm living up to the expectations of society. And meanwhile, for me again, personal example, I was like void on the inside of like knowing myself. And so, yeah, that was a pretty big example, but.

mark: 49:44

No, but I appreciate you speaking

Lisa: 49:46

to that.

mark: 49:47

It masks something

Lisa: 49:48

different.

mark: 49:49

Yes, big time, and you know what, it allows me to like reflect upon your question and maybe not think about it so high up here. Bring it back down, Mark. Yeah, okay. Great. Well, I feel like I can answer that better now. Thank you to your vulnerable and authentic example there, because for myself as well, there was so much that did present itself behind the busyness which was as you spoke to, and I think that, you know, likely the two of us aren't the only two people in pain, aren't the only two people who have shit that, uh, That is kept off the table that there are parts of us that we are afraid to bring into the light because that would change our story or perspective of ourselves because in my mind, you know, I tell myself and think of myself as a great person and as a good person and in order for that to remain true. I think for a long time I kept parts of me hidden because that would change my story of myself. Because, you know, how can you be a good person if, if you showed up like this in that relationship, or you did this when you were younger, or you thought of this, or your parents or your coach or your mentor said this about you, or you know, so I think behind the business was there was some pain and there was some shit that I had like Not been willing, able, or aware existed, and that needed to be seen and felt. Mm. And uh, You know, I think we always want to have a quick resolve or a painless, uh, operation or so much of our lives these days are, are like readily available, easy and quick. In, at least in my experience, you know, living in Canada and coming from, you know, middle class type family, you know, like I had a lot of my needs and stuff provided for me. And so, yeah, you know, it's all welcome here. And and that was the thing that kind of showed up in the darkness for me and with my near death experience was, you know, if God or if Source or you know, the thing that makes this, this thing happen and go around, if it's in, if it's in the flowers and the bees and the trees and the sex and the love and the connection, and if it's in all these things that are what we deem. then it's also in all the stuff that we deem bad, right? How can it not be? And so when we don't leave room at the table for these parts of us, we'd left in darkness. We're only ever getting a couple pieces of the full puzzle, you know? We never have a chance to really complete it and have a full experience and a whole field expression. Because it includes the dark pieces of the puzzle. You need those dark pieces in order to form the whole picture.

Lisa: 53:27

Yeah.

mark: 53:28

And, and it I think we often want to, like I was saying before I lost my track there, you know, heal things quickly or move through things quickly, but the reality is, is things have to be felt and I think to one of your questions you had emailed me is, you know, what did your healing experience look like in the past? I think a lot of it was really numb. It was surface. It was Focused on things outside of myself on blaming on pointing a finger or telling myself. There's nothing for me to heal I'm good. I'm healed. I'm good, bro Like i'm fucking good, man Like, you know, and I think that has to do like a bit with my personality and upbringing and everything else but i'm sure that others can relate to that and You I had to sit in the darkness with those feelings that I deem ugly or hurtful or, like, I had to fucking sit with shit that I had done to people through my life. Yeah. And there was no, there was no fucking easy button. There was no easy button. There was no let's get past this, you know, the old adage once again, again, a cliche, but like, there's no way around but through. You literally have to go through the fucking swamp, you know, like Sam, Frodo, and Gollum couldn't have made it. Yes. Unless they walked through the dead marshes. Unless they walked through, you know, here we go. Had to go through the shit that like they didn't want to go through. That's right. And that was integral to them being able to complete their journey. That's right. And the thing that I'm learning is that I am human. And thank you for saying that earlier. I'm reminding myself all the fucking time I am human and I'm going to mess shit up and that's part of it. And whole and healed does not mean perfect whole healed involves. Every single aspect of myself in this experience, even the ones, especially the ones that I deem dirty, unclean, broken, uh, faulty. It, it, it's all right here and it has to be here in order for us to have a picture in order for us to truly experience and live authentically in this life.

Lisa: 56:07

Yeah. Yeah. I'm, uh, wondering about, what am I wondering about? I'm wondering about if you have Like specific, if you want to share specific, you also can choose not to specific things that came up for you in the dark that were unexpected or shocking. Hmm.

mark: 56:36

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. We're just going to edit out all this really personal stuff, right? Of course. No, no. I specifically told Lisa to fill everyone in. Yeah. This is going out unabridged and unaltered and this is me and I'm bearing it out there for you. The messy parts and all. Yeah. I think that any time we approach, uh, a journey. You know, whether it be a messenger, a trip, a relationship we always have intentions, right? And we always have an idea of how things are gonna go. I studied acting under an incredible teacher for a couple years and we would do these exercises where there would be one person inside the room and one person outside of the room. They both had their own needs and, and tasks and their own stories. They were, they were busy, right? And it was all improv. And, but as the person outside of the room, you came in with a story, which the person inside the room had to accept, right? They had to play along with it. And when I was doing homework or prep work for Being on the outside of the room, I would always get so far ahead of myself. And, well, they're going to say this and I'm going to say that, and this is how it's going to go. But the reality is, is that you have one moment to control, which is. That first moment, what you, what you approach the door with, how you knock on the door, how you say hello, or whether you say hello or not. And the rest never looks like how you planned. And that's beautiful. So you need to leave your, she called it, uh, Your preparation backpack, right? You'd have to leave it at the door And just trust that what is going to happen is is going to be perfect just as it is. And so I went into the darkness like I do with any other Journey, I'm embarking upon with intention, with ideas of what I'm going to heal with ideas of what I'm going to resolve, how I'm going to feel, you know, I got a checklist and I'm just all right, I'm going in there. I'm addressing this list. I'm coming out the other side of it. You know, he does have a checklist. I do have a checklist, right? Six pages in front of me, which I've only looked at like once or twice. Thank God. But maybe that's anyways, that's another thing. Like. Like I wanted to address shit and fucking none of the shit that I wanted to have resolved or dig into came up and the dark is a wise container and it gives you what you need not always what you want and I think that's so true for many things in life we want this To go this way. We want this relationship to look like this. We want our career to be like this. We want our body to be like this and seldom is not really the case. So yeah, there was a lot of stuff that came up for me. I was raised Christian in a, in a Christian household and went to a private school and, you know, based on some of the things I've learned and that were talked about as it related to my sexuality, to my body, to intimacy, to marriage, to union. Was really narrow, rigid stifling, and I think I held on to a lot of those things for most of my life. Yeah, I mean, like I would have been blind a long time ago if I, if what they said was true because, you know, it's the reference, something your husband said about, uh, you know, pleasuring yourself you know, be careful you're going to go blind. There's. Yeah, you know, this body is not faulty and the fact that we can feel pleasure and like we're meant to, and that's something to, to experience. And that's something that's so very beautiful. You know, it's not needs to be kept in the dark and it doesn't need to be, you know, shady or dark or like, I mean like, fuck man, woman, whoever you have a body, you are actually meant to experience it. And as long as there's, you know, as long as you're consenting or, And if you're alone or if you're with someone and they're consenting and it's all good, then like, give her, like, experience that shit, like, that is, that is beautiful. Celebrate it. Celebrate it, no doubt. And I think that, I've thought about this a lot in my life, that, like, the universe, Isn't going to give us more of what we want if we don't show that we are aware of it, grateful for it, and consciously and intentionally celebrating it, like you said, like me

Lisa: 1:01:31

and receiving it. Yeah. Being able to receiving. Yeah.

mark: 1:01:36

Big time like I mean I have a body like I have this body and like I've put my body through the ringer in my life and like the fact that I can feel and have all my limbs and like I can experience these things like that is so very beautiful and so powerful. And one of the other things that came up, so kind of my sexuality and, and reclaiming and re imagining and reinvigorating and, Really like loving those parts of me again and my body and just thanking it and touching it and Like there was great power in that. And another thing was Having to sit with like we talked about all the all the things that I felt I had done in not right action to women specifically. Like I had to, I had to like wrestle and sit with how I had shown up for women in my life. And, uh, I was really, really hard. And, and I had to forgive myself and, you know, I, I consciously sent love to myself, to those women who have been in my life before and with gratitude for, for how they showed up, how they didn't show up, you know. The rights, they did the wrongs, they did whatever, however, you know, and also for myself and just, you know, place some peace and some love upon those containers. And yeah, that was something that showed up that I didn't really expect to show up, but I'm optimistic that that experience is affording me a greater opportunity to be in closer union with the female expressions in this In this iteration and in this life to hold a cleaner container to, uh, do not inflict pain to hold their pain and their stories and, you know, be. A mountain for the feminine that is waving and moving and fluctuating and yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa: 1:03:52

Yeah. So you can only access that mountain for other people when you're that for yourself. Yeah. So I think, you know, we often as a society expect our masculine counterparts to be able to hold these like massive containers

mark: 1:04:12

without

Lisa: 1:04:13

having the eldership, elderhood, whatever you want to call it, to have examples. Of how that's done and how people can really tune into and heal these parts within themselves that need to be witnessed, that need to be loved. You know, this whole bit on sexuality and Christianity and, you know, sexy time being wrong and masturbation and all of that. It's like, we wouldn't, like you said, we wouldn't be built with these parts if, you We're weren't meant to experience some pleasure and some joy and some connection, you know, and some expression and creation, like for God's sake, you know, like all of that lives there. And when that's suppressed. Our voices are suppressed, right? Like the, there's a connecting factor. Like our voices are connected with, with everything, our sensuality and our sexuality and how we treat ourselves and how we treat every relationship. And so that's extremely important work. That's like, that's the work it's part of the work. And it goes hand in hand with like reclaiming, you know, not only the pleasure, but looking at the shame. And I think that, you know, that's, that's also really difficult. Cause shame is like, I am bad. Not like I did something. It's like, I am, like as a whole, I am bad. And I think a lot of us were made to feel that way. Especially around sexuality. So, I just wanted to, to add that in.

mark: 1:05:51

Yeah. Thank you.

Lisa: 1:05:57

Yeah. Big work, man. Oh, man.

mark: 1:06:00

Yeah. Mercy.

Lisa: 1:06:02

Stop mercy.

mark: 1:06:04

Mercy. So,

Lisa: 1:06:07

I'm also wondering, oh, do you have something to add for that? Just kind of ranting there.

mark: 1:06:12

No, I don't think so. I think, like, just you double tapping on the fact that, like, Hey dude, like that needs to be for yourself first and that's just been such a beautiful lesson and one I continue to learn and come back to is, you know, you can't be anything for anyone else unless you can be that for yourself and you know, you got to put on your, your oxygen mask first, right? Because, you know, we're all hurting and part of this experience is the fact that there's pain and there's trauma and there's, you know, Like, I don't think there's a human on this earth that hasn't experienced trauma in some capacity or another. I think it's just integral and weaved into it. And yeah, if I can be there for myself first, then, then what else is possible, right?

Lisa: 1:06:58

Yeah. The takeaway from that is masturbate and enjoy it. Oh, I kid, but really though when we can like take the shame out of it. and do this like healthy exploration of ourselves as humans and as bodies and honor that because there's a way that it can also get into addiction, you know, and that actually causes more disconnect. So we're not talking about that. We are talking about that, but we're not talking about going in that direction. We're talking about the honoring the forgiveness. That I have a body and it's meant for pleasure. Can I experience that pleasure while honoring myself and, and another person? Like that's what we're talking about.

mark: 1:07:51

Yeah.

Lisa: 1:07:54

Yeah. And you can't actually do that without self acceptance. I guess it's, it's huge. It's so huge.

mark: 1:08:03

Of course. Yeah. So a lot of those

Lisa: 1:08:05

actions that you speak of, like, you know, to the feminine, you know, how many of those were from that wounding from that place of like, I feel shame, I feel not enough. I feel criticized. I feel, you know, whatever it is, those actions. That behavior arises from those internal woundings, those internal places where we were made to feel wrong for having a body, for feeling what we feel, for not having someone to help us feel our feelings when we're small. Like all of those things, it's like all together, you know, so it's not small work. It's fucking huge work.

mark: 1:08:46

I completely agree. Yeah, I do. Because I don't think, uh, like most people I don't think really want to inflict pain or, you know, I don't, I think most, like, the heart of people are good. I really do. I think that, you know, we just get caught and stuck and perpetuating stories and learning, learning behavior and You know, keeping things off the table as we've talked about. And you know, I liken it to like those things in the dark and those you know, those things that I didn't want to look at and the things that I suppressed, like I'd liken it to a big beach ball that you hold underwater. In the swimming pool, right? And you've got it, and it's under your legs, and like, how hard is that for you to keep that fucking thing down there? You're just like, fighting it. That's fun for

Lisa: 1:09:34

a while. Until it's not.

mark: 1:09:37

In a shallow zone, totally. Like, you can, you can do it for a time, but just think about, How much ease you are not creating and the truth of the matter is like you will get tired and it can only be kept in the darkness or underwater for so long and eventually that thing fucking shoots out and it usually knocks you in the face or it hits grandma next to you or whatever it

Lisa: 1:10:05

is. Poor grandma. She took one.

mark: 1:10:08

Well, you shouldn't have been standing there, alright? You know, it's just like. Yeah, like these things will present themselves and it goes back to that quote I shared earlier of you, right? Like it will present itself. It will present itself. That which you keep or that which you put in the dark calls you to it. Like it

Lisa: 1:10:27

doesn't go away.

mark: 1:10:28

Yeah, exactly. It does not go away. Like we're here to, we're here to dive deep. We're here to address both the seen and unseen, the good and the bad, the right and the wrong. And just as we are meant to see that, witness it, experience it, we are also meant to honour, feel. Cherish that within ourselves, because just because there are, as you said, parts of me that I've done that have not been exceptional and in right accord and based in love likely based in fear, just because that has been things that have happened does not mean that that makes me a bad person. And, you know, we are human, we are infallible, right? Or we are not infallible, right? We, we will box it up. And, you know, the beautiful thing is we are constantly presented with choices. You know, like what choice can I make today? You know, what choice can I make in this moment? What would love do now? Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: 1:11:46

So I'm wondering, because it's been what, now like two and a half weeks? Has it been longer than that since you've been out of the dark?

mark: 1:11:54

No, something like that. Something

Lisa: 1:11:56

like that. I'm wondering if there's been any other kind of insights or things that have popped up or new awarenesses from that experience that you've noticed?

mark: 1:12:09

Oh, man. Yeah, big time. Yeah. One thing that has been constantly coming to my awareness is Just how, how my mind maybe functions or which, which, you know, seems kind of simple, but it, it's been a big thing for me. And if I could break it down kind of like this judgment, awareness, curiosity. Compassion. Yeah. So, starting with judgment like I said, we are meaning making missions and that's, that's our monkey brain. You know, we, we're not, not going to get rid of that. That's our ego, right? And we have it for a reason. It can serve a purpose. It can be a part of the solution and a servant, but not a master. So I've just been noticing how Much I judge things and what I've also been reflecting on is like if I am judging like that person, that situation, that action, man, like if that is not true that I am doing that shit to myself on the daily with every aspect of my life. So, so that's been huge. So if I can go from judgment to awareness of judgment. Like, oh, when I see that, you know, that person who's, you know, hacking a dart, a dart and, you know, throwing their butt on the ground and you know, if I can become aware of me judging them, that is the first step because nothing can be done or acknowledged without awareness. So I go from judging to awareness of my judging from my awareness. Can I cultivate a. A piece of curiosity, you know, you know, because we I think we just want to know and we tell Or I you know, I shouldn't speak for others, but like I tell myself all the time that I know shit. I'm like so Confident and I'm like, oh, that's the way it's, yeah. Oh, well I know that, which is like so silly because how much is happening outside of our, of our knowingness so much

Lisa: 1:14:36

everything, all the things.

mark: 1:14:39

Mm-Hmm. But if I can cultivate some curiosity about it, like, man, I wonder what that person's going through. Like I wonder what their upbringing was like. I wonder. What they are struggling with right now that they're reaching for that, or, you know, maybe they have like a dart a week and it's just like their, their thing. It was like, man, I just love having this one day a week. Like who fucking knows, but I know nothing. Assuming if I'm going to make any assumption in this life, assuming I do not know is a safe assumption because I'm able to be curious. And from that curiosity, I can have compassion. I can have compassion for that person. Ma'am, I do not know what it is you are going through. I don't know what your experience looks like. I don't know what you're thinking. I don't, I don't know. You're a human being. You are a human being, just like me. And you are going through the paces as you need to go through them, as you see, as you see fit. And it is not up to me to cast judgment, you know, I was raised a Christian, as I said, and one of the sayings is, you know, you're something to the extent it's been a while since I read the Bible, so please don't, you know, lash me or whatever. But, you know, You, you look for something to the extent of like, you look for like a pebble in your neighbor's eye while there's a stone in yours, something like that. Shit, yeah. And it's like, you know, like constantly are we like looking outside of ourselves and like judging others when in reality it's like, dude, like look at your own shit and you have an opportunity to, to address, to welcome, to, you know, be aware. Curious and then compassionate and so that's been like a really big thing for me that I've just seen showing up and it's really like afforded more joy, more ease, more light in my life because I'm like, oh man, like, how busy and how much energy am I pouring into judging? Totally. Yeah. And for what? Like, is that going to bring us any closer to connection, compassion, intimacy, love? Uh, is that gonna like foster any more of that in our day to day life? Like, I don't think so, man. So, like, yeah, that's been, honestly, that's been a big thing, Lisa, that that I've been, that I've been thinking about, for sure, among other things.

Lisa: 1:17:03

I mean, the gift is in the paws. To like see that coming up and to be aware, you know, that is, that is the pause. And to make a different choice and like how extraordinary that we can choose in those moments to make a different choice because when we're pointing the finger, right, three are pointing back at us. And so I always think about that when I'm about to start either judging myself or something I'm doing, whatever it is, because there's just so many things, you know, and I don't know. I feel like. The more times that we can do that for ourselves and for others, the less conflict that we'll have like on the planet. Right. And it starts with every single person because you're right. Like we don't fucking know. We don't know what's happening for that person. We don't know if there's having this one dart in a week or whatever. It doesn't fucking matter. You know, we have no idea what's going on for someone else, even though we think we might, you know, it's kind of like this, this weird thing we have with social media where we go on and we scroll and we see all these people live in this perfect life. And what we don't see is all the bullshit. And it's like that, you know, it's life, like nobody gets out without, you know, big traumas, little traumas, all traumas, you know, divorces, separations, breakups. All these things, deaths. So we really just don't know what someone else is dealing with. So to be able to have curiosity and then compassion, like even as you were sharing that story. I can feel myself being like, Oh, yeah, like when I can start asking questions about someone, you know, whether that's about gender or choices they've made or whatever it is, then I can just feel that peace arising up within me. And that's creating connection, you know, and you don't necessarily have to connect with that person through words, but it can be felt. Because we know when we're being judged, like when we're being perceived

mark: 1:19:08

and judged, like

Lisa: 1:19:09

we can feel that. We're like energetic beings, right? And so even without words, anyways, so like what a pursuit, what a pursuit.

mark: 1:19:20

Oh yeah. And just like, you know, realizing I'm never going to get it right. No, fuck no. That is okay, but there is like power in intention. There's power in intention and choice, because as you've made a certain choice in your past, every moment, you do have a choice, you do have a choice. And like, I think that that's, there's so much in this life that it was like hard to explain. And you know, why, why do these like atrocities, why is war happening? Why are, why are, you know, women and men raped? Why is there murder? Why, like, you know, these. These things that we have a really hard time grappling with and wrestling with and Yeah, sorry, I don't know where I

Lisa: 1:20:12

was going with that. All the shit. All the things, all the time, all at once. That. But I do, I feel it's necessary. It's like change starts here. Like it can't, it can't ever start anywhere else. And so if each person is dedicated to being more curious and less judgmental as much as possible, you know, that does nothing but saves us. And as a result saves everyone around us that like, you know, that energy, that output that you're speaking to before, but like, how can I use my words? Am I either uplifting someone else or am I tearing them down? Like, With each word, is this a necessary thing for me to share or do I need to share it because I want to be seen, you know, it's like it brings all of these other awarenesses about simply from that act, simply from that contemplation. It's like, how can I be more aware? How can I be less judgmental? How can I be more human knowing that like, you know, I got an airstreamer behind me full of my own fucking shadows, you know? Mm-Hmm. like, I wouldn't enjoy having judged either. Hmm.

mark: 1:21:29

Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Lisa: 1:21:37

Hmm. So, unless you have more to share, I wanna ask another question.

mark: 1:21:42

Yeah, please. Sorry. Yeah, please. Okay.

Lisa: 1:21:44

Okay. So my next question is, What practices helped you in the dark?

mark: 1:22:01

Well, I think it's very easy when you're avoid of any Outer influence or anything to do to get really heady and to be stuck up just like loop shit. So it was a great practice in getting out of there and getting into my body. So listening to my body, you know, Resting when I needed to rest. Hey, do I need to do some light movement right now? Should I sit? Is there any part of my body that like desires touch? Singing was a great practice for me. Listening to my own voice. Yeah, very, like very light stretching and some yoga poses. Uh, I had a recorder in there. So, I was recording my voice, which was like really powerful for me to, to do that. You only eat twice a day. And so, you know, I would drag that on as long as possible. Not like drag it, but like soak in it and bask in it and enjoy it. And yeah, yeah. Like there's, there's not much to do. Right. And so checking in with my body was like a big, a big thing. And like, just, uh, Yeah. Reminding myself of, of, of why I went in there, you know, to see what, to see what would come up and that's what I'm in the process of, you know, there's nowhere to be, and there's nothing to do. And I think that doing that Afforded me space, which I'm so grateful for because when do we ever get that space, right? And there's actually a saying I love from Viktor Frankl, which is Between stimulus and response, there's a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. And so, yeah, the liminal space, the bardo, the theta brainwaves that we can tap into, man, it is vast and rich and full and fertile, and everything is held there. And so, I was never, I didn't really feel bored. Mmm, fuck. I didn't really feel that bored yeah, there was, there was so much that was available there. It's all available there, which is an interesting, like, conundrum because it's like, you think that it's empty when in reality it's full of everything. And so, yeah, my mind and my spirit and the darkness and everything outside of me continually surprised me, continually surprised me.

Lisa: 1:24:44

I mean, also there's something to be said about taking a dopamine break

mark: 1:24:51

away from screens

Lisa: 1:24:52

away from, you know, text messages away from all these things that keep us like distracted and, and busy. And I'm wondering, you know, when you came out. of the dark, like, did you kind of rush back into going online right away? Or did you really kind of space it out and give yourself time to integrate in that way?

mark: 1:25:20

Yeah, I gave myself a little bit of time. I think you can probably like always give yourself more integration. But it makes me think of something, uh, a loved one of mine has said, which was, It was in a, uh, plant medicine ceremony and he said, you know, you don't do ceremony to get good at ceremony. You do it to apply it to your life because ceremony or darkness or your yoga practice or meditation or the gym or whatever it is that you are looking to get great at or sit with and are intentionally pouring your energy and intention into, that is just a fraction of it. Hello. The time that you have here. And, and so, you know, I gave myself a little bit of time and I also understood that integration happens in the world. Integration happens as we continue to walk, as we continue to see, as we continue to taste, as we continue to be in this world you know, to be in but not of it to Yeah, I found myself seeing things, feeling things, approaching things with a deepened sense of understanding of how it was affecting me. Right. So, so looking someone in the eyes. Being like, oh, oh, wow. Wow. Hmm. Hmm. Here we both are. Wow. There's like a moment here and an opportunity to connect and for presence in this moment. Oh, I'm going to open my phone and look into a social media application. Okay. Can I do that intentionally? What effect is this having on my body? How is this making me feel? You know, reaching for. a substance or, or even just feeding myself or, you know, taking a dump. Oh, how's this making me feel? Great. Yeah, totally. Like, I mean, it falls off. You feel lighter after it. I mean, we're talking about once again, like God or beauty being in all of it. A duality of it. It's like God's also been taking a dub. That's right. You know, beauty and also taking a dub because it makes you feel good. And it's, it's an inevitable part of this experience. So it wouldn't be here if it wasn't meant to color that experience in some way or another. And how it colors it is really up to us. It's our choices. It's our perspective. Can we, can I witness not only myself and my actions and what I decide to do, but can I pour that from myself into others? Can I witness you? Can I witness, uh, my mother? Can I witness my sister, my brother? Can I witness my dog? No. Which, which sounds very simple, but it's, it's actually a big thing because so often we find ourselves maybe not judging, but perceiving, right? You know, judgment kind of has a bit of a negative connotation to it. Maybe like acknowledging as opposed to judging, right? But witnessing and not perceiving. So all these things that I was able to do outside of the darkness container, can I witness? Uh, how I feel, how this makes me feel, how I'm using it. Am I using it? Or is it using me? Is this, it aims to deeper connection and intimacy and healing, or is this avoidant? Is this am I running away? Am I looking to numb, right? There's subtleties in, in, in those things, because so much of this life of this, uh, material world is. Neutral, right? And it's up to us. It's up to us how we use it. It's up to us how we use technology. It's up to us how we use relationship. It's up to us how we treat food and how we allow it to nourish, sustain, fuel, grow, heal us versus sustain. I'm in for cheeseburgers because like fucking there's a feeling that I don't really want to feel and so I'm going to satiate it with four cheeseburgers right now.

Lisa: 1:29:52

Too true too true Sometimes we just want four cheeseburgers Look,

mark: 1:29:58

look, I get it and there is duality there again because there are not and shit is too Difficult. Yeah is It is too much.

Lisa: 1:30:09

Totally.

mark: 1:30:10

Life is overbearing at times and sometimes we need to. Now, we escape. We need to run away. Now, the hope is that we can every time we do that, maybe the gap shortens, right? Where, you know, cause there's a healthy way of doing that and reaching for things and coming back to, Oh, I actually, you know, that's actually outside of myself and what I'm desiring. It's within myself here now and, and, and in right relationship with myself first and foremost.

Lisa: 1:30:46

Totally. You could even be having that exact conversation with yourself as you're doing it. Like two days ago, I ate an entire bag of real fruit gummies, which was like not the best idea ever. Cause I felt so terrible after. But I was just like eating them. I wasn't necessarily trying to distract from anything. I was like, Oh, I just love these. Like I love

mark: 1:31:07

these so much.

Lisa: 1:31:10

And then the whole bag was gone. And I was like, OK, like I made that choice to just eat the whole bag. And like, that's fine. You know, and I think that, you know, that's one of the main differences. For everything that we do, it's like, can I be aware of like what I'm doing right now? And if I'm going to choose to do this thing, can I hold back on judging myself? Right. It's like, okay, I ate that bag. Now I'm not going to go and like do a big workout because of it. I'm just going to like allow myself to enjoy it and just. You know, like that's it. And I feel like that was, has been a huge game changer for me in, in awareness, because I often find that we, when we do things that we perceive as bad or wrong, we have this way of like, we, like, we need to repent, you know, we need to like now do the opposite thing. So, cause it somehow cancels out the bad thing we just did. And it fucking doesn't, it's just like, how about acceptance? How about like I found that thing like really pleasurable and I'm just gonna let myself enjoy it.

mark: 1:32:21

How about curiosity?

Lisa: 1:32:22

Out of curiosity. Yeah.

mark: 1:32:25

Like what am I to feel here? What am I? Was I unable to tap into that knowing that well, deep well within myself that would afford me the feeling that I'm looking for? And that's okay, right? Because if it's from non judgment, if it's from if it's from love and curiosity, then it's like, oh, then when you have another choice down the road, you know, when you know better, you do better. And when you know better, sometimes you don't fucking do better. Sometimes you don't do better. Yeah. Because it's like, hey, I'm going, hopefully, you know, the choices I'm making aren't ones that are going to put me in, you know, a life and death situation. So hopefully I have another opportunity to make a different choice.

Lisa: 1:33:11

If

mark: 1:33:12

I so choose, if I am able to.

Lisa: 1:33:15

Listen, if I have another bag of real food coming out within the next month, I'll probably eat that one too. Maybe I'm going to space it out a bit. We're going to

mark: 1:33:27

start putting locks on the snack, snack cabinets for you, Lisa.

Lisa: 1:33:33

Yeah, Tim's gonna be like, no more of this. Actually, Tim's the one that brings them home. He's like, I know you like these. I'm just like, stop bringing them home. But this also speaks to like the resistance that we have to pleasure

mark: 1:33:49

and to

Lisa: 1:33:49

joy and to things that are actually going to help us like process things, not necessarily like a pack of, you know, gummy candies. But I'm speaking to like things that we know that are good for us, that our body is really wanting in the moment to help us process things. It's like how resistant we can be to that. Like we can know something for like a week. Like even this morning I woke up and I knew that I needed to move my body before this podcast. And I was like doing everything other. I'm going to move my body before this. I was like, I'm going to make some coffee. I'm going to like clean up. I'm going to vacuum and do like all of these things. And meanwhile, I could literally feel my body being like, bitch, like, come on, we need to move, you know? And finally I just gave way. I put on one single song and move my body and really allowed it to like shake off the energy from the night before, whatever, whatever I was feeling, it doesn't actually matter. It just matters that. I was given that prompt. You know, and I feel like the more that I can do that, the better I get when resistance pops up because I know it's good for me. It may force me to feel some uncomfortable things but like that's, again, that's the juice, is like how, how good can I get at feeling discomfort? How long can I sit with that discomfort? And sometimes it's not even the length. It's like a moment in time. It's like, Oh, I felt that anger for one second. Oh, I felt that sadness for one second. Oh, I felt grief for, you know, a few moments. And sometimes it's like those small chunks that make the biggest difference over time. It's like, we don't necessarily want to blow the lid off things because again, that's our tendency. We just want to like, get in there. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, let's go, I'm going to get rid of all my anger today. You know, I'm never going to feel it again. I'm going to get out all my grief and then life is going to be good. It's like, again, this perpetual when I do this, then I'll be able to do that. And it's bullshit. It's just like life doesn't work that way.

mark: 1:35:53

Oh, no doubt. And like, yeah, you honoring your body and listening to the prompt this morning for a little bit of movement, you know, one

Lisa: 1:36:00

song, it was like three minutes, three minutes,

mark: 1:36:03

and your body's like, hell yeah, girl. Like, let's shake this shit up because, you know, If you want to be in right relationship or accord with anyone, anyone, you have to first be with yourself and right relationship and accord. And I think for so long, I just did not feel things. I just was afraid of getting into my body. And I was like, fuck, like, if I can just like, Moll it over, or intellectualize it, or speak about it, or write about it, or whatever. That's good enough, but the truth is, is that our body is party to every decision we make.

Lisa: 1:36:39

That's right. It

mark: 1:36:40

is fucking along for the ride, and so we honor it and be like, Hey what do you need? And can I do something that will, uh, be good for you? Is like, that, it's so dang big, right?

Lisa: 1:36:55

Yeah, it's huge. Like, can I, can I switch from just dragging my body along? And forcing it to do all these things that my mind wants to do to, can I honor it? It's like, I know I still have to do these things that may potentially not be in my body's best interest. Like when I go beyond my physical capabilities or, you know, like when you're stretching, maybe beyond the point that you should be, it's like, We all have to do that, like whether we're parents or dog owners or whatever, there are things that we're just like, oh, I'm fucking exhausted, you know, and we don't want to do certain things, but we can also repair with our bodies. So after those moments, it's like, okay, body, like, I know that I had to do all those things and you're tired now. So what do you need? You need some water, you need a rest, you need to dance, you need to go put your feet on the ground, like, We can repair with ourselves the same way that we can repair with others, which is like

mark: 1:37:52

huge,

Lisa: 1:37:55

huge in between, in between the moments where we just don't have the time. It's like any time we can give to ourselves to honor ourselves and like where we're at that's repair. And that's showing our body safety, which in turn creates that pause, creates that space to be able to experience the and to experience more curiosity and creativity. Yeah.

mark: 1:38:18

Because your body and your mind is going to run the fuck away from stillness and pausing and anything outside of the busyness if you have not created a safe container for yourself. Right? Right. Yeah. If you haven't shown your body, like, Hey, it's okay to feel these things. It is okay to allow these to arise. And, you know, it might not have been, I might not have afforded us the space previously in our life, or maybe my past relationship, or maybe my upbringing with my parents, maybe my dad lashed out any time I Came to the table with any emotion other than all is good. Yep. Joy or something else, the acceptable shit, right? It's like, you know, it, it has to be all welcome here. And with you speaking to, you know, can I feel this, this grief or this pain or this disease or discomfort for just a moment? Can I feel it for just a moment? Often I find that what replaces that is. Almost the opposite. Ice cream. No, Lisa. It's like, Hey, can I sit with this for just one moment? I find that sometimes it is very deep and very hard and very painful and last. And other times it's. It's quick, and it's fleeting, and it's like, holy fuck, I just need to like, acknowledge and feel that, and all of a sudden, it can dissipate and move through me. And then what creates phase following that, like you were saying, is often something that was waiting to come through, which we might be more, we might be surprised with, we might be elated about, it might be something. More in line with what we want to create and want to feel and desire to perpetuate in our life, right? And if we can be brave, if we can create that space, if we can acknowledge that I'm a human being, and I am not just fucking hunky dory all the time, goddammit. Like, I have all the feelings. And I think of it as As a pendulum and a spectrum, because if a container or a relationship, if it has potential to hold massive levels of joy, elation, love, connection, intimacy, if it has the capacity to hold that, it too swings the other way, and it has the capacity to hold in the same intensity The grief, the pain, the sorrow, the heartache, the disconnection, the dis ease. Like, like fuck man, you're not gonna have one without the other. That's right. Ashley duality. Ashley duality. Totally.

Lisa: 1:41:18

Like in equal intensity. In equal,

mark: 1:41:21

exactly. That's right. Could you expand on that, if I can?

Lisa: 1:41:26

Sure. Yes, you can. You may.

mark: 1:41:30

Yeah, thank you. You know, if, like, we can't just have deep and meaningfuls all day long, and we can't dive deep into our trauma all day long. Oh, God, no. We can't, we can't go into the cellar of our house that is our body all day long and hang out there. We cannot. No, no, no. Okay. There needs to be a balance and, you know, there needs to be like you were saying about the ice cream, like, like there needs to be a willingness to dive and to feel some of these hard fucking things. Sit with them, be with them, embrace them, be aware of them. Shed light on them. Yeah. With that, there also needs to be a willingness to be super light, to talk about the weather with someone, to, you know, joke about bullshit, to be goofy, to be, you know, to be joyful, to dance, to be silly, to allow this body to move and express and and, Yeah, I mean, in the lightness of it too, right? Like the yeah, the, the non seriousness on it too, because, uh, makes me think of a saying, which is something of, you'll know a great spiritual master by his laughter or by her laughter. Ah,

Lisa: 1:42:48

I agree. Yeah. You know,

mark: 1:42:50

because it's like, if If, if, if they are not able to, if they don't laugh from their belly and like, if it's not a, it's not deep and if it's not true, it's just like, find another guru because they're missing the fucking point. Like, you know, you know, they're, yeah, that's it.

Lisa: 1:43:09

Well, I mean, and I will say that like, to be that light, it takes a certain amount of like looking at those dark places. Because safety requires, or playfulness rather, requires safety. Play requires safety. And so, when we find ourselves being overly serious, overly critical, overly, you know, hard on ourselves, that's a lack of safety.

mark: 1:43:41

Yeah, we tie so much to who we are. That's right. And how we express. We can't look bad.

Lisa: 1:43:47

We can't just, like, be silly and, like, it's all about keeping face or, like, holding up appearances. And, quite honestly, like, fuck all that. You know, like I want to be like, wrung out, wet, laughing, joyful, eating gummy bears, while I'm looking at the things that hurt me. Like it's, it's simultaneous. Like I remember when I was in, deep in my chronic pain journey, and this shit ain't always been this way for me, okay y'all, like two decades in chronic pain, I was a very serious person for a very long time. And I remember someone once said to me this thing that we talked about, you know, a few moments ago about The amount of pain and suffering that you can feel is the exact amount of joy and playfulness that you also have access to. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I know that's true. I know that this is so true. Like I've experienced these joyful times in my life. I know by nature, I'm a joyful person, but I've got so much pain that's like stopping me from being able to connect with this playful, curious person, and I became really rigid for a very long time. And that was keeping me in that, that was keeping me in my pain, keeping me from experiencing pleasure in the moment and with other people. And so I just, I can't stress enough how, like, if. You know, for those listeners, if you're feeling like you're someone that's really serious feeling like you can't find the joy in life, like stop what you're doing right now and go and run down a hill and scream, like just enjoy something

mark: 1:45:27

and

Lisa: 1:45:27

see how it feels in your body. Because like, that's it right there, coming back into that like, that playfulness, that childhood wonder before all the shit fucked you up. You know, like that's the thing that I had to get back to. And it's like a constant reminder. It's such a great reminder. What is dance? Dance is play, moving, moving our bodies, laughing with our friends, like belly laughing, like at least a few times a week, if you can, I used to have to force myself, I would watch comedy. For like, hours on end, just trying to evoke a response of like, joy and laughter. Like it, you have to work for it. When it hasn't been present within you for a long time. So anyway,

mark: 1:46:16

yes

Lisa: 1:46:17

All that

mark: 1:46:19

Yes, because and if I may it feels to me because I've had the pleasure of getting to know you you know over a year or so and Like you are so full of joy and light and smiles and hugs and you're, yeah, you fucking glow and I think, and please take that, like, accept that, boom, boom. Yeah. And you know, at least I think that. As difficult as it may have been when you were going through your shit, you had to go through that shit Totally. In order for you to have the, well, the capacity to feel the joy that you feel now. Mm-Hmm. When you're on the Jiggler walking Mer and having delicious talk. Jiggler, the Ji, like whatever, like dancing Yeah. Eating delicious food, which I know you love and Yeah. You know, like you had to fucking go through that. And I know that any time during those years, at any point, if someone was like, Lisa, Lisa, take this thing and all your pain will go away. You have been signing the fuck up. Where do I start? Yeah. Let me get me out of this. Yeah.

Lisa: 1:47:46

Absolutely.

mark: 1:47:47

You had to go through that. And you have come, I'm imagining to a point in your life where you were. able to reflect upon, upon the shit that you thought was going to kill you gratitude. And I think that that is just, that is just so much what this experience is about being able to know that, Hey, in this moment, I want anything else. And I'm pretty confident that I'm going to get to a point in my life where as hard as this is right now, I am going to be able to say thank you. And I'm going to be able to express gratitude for what this has given me. brought about in my life down the road on the road and yeah shortening that time between fuck this shit and uh why or interesting you know curiosity why maybe this is for me maybe you know and man like yeah it can be easy to talk about these things are easy to talk about and then there's another thing I do feel it is another thing to experience for yourself, just as the darkness, just as medicine journeys, just as trauma, just as chronic pain, just as addictions, just as Divorces and ending relationships and painting your career. All of these things are yeah.

Lisa: 1:49:19

Life stuff.

mark: 1:49:20

Yeah. Life stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all there and it's there to be experienced. Like I can't stress that enough. Right. It's, I think it's, yeah. And it's hard. Right. Because from our human mind and from our limited perspective, Buh bye. This is what I was alluding to earlier before I lost my train of thought, but we tried to answer Why there's so much shit going on in this world.

Lisa: 1:49:47

Mm hmm

mark: 1:49:48

from our perspective. We can't make sense of it

Lisa: 1:49:52

Yeah,

mark: 1:49:53

and I feel like where we're all going is where we all come from and we're part of You know, we're each an individual thread in the tapestry that is this experience and that is this life and that is the divine. And I think at one point in our lives or in another or beyond what we call life in this experience, we are able to see the unlawful, excuse me, the lawful unfolding of it all, right? The lawful unfolding of it all. It's happening as. As it should, and as it needs to, and I'm not saying that as a means of spiritual bypassing or an excuse or something to just, but I truly believe that, I truly believe that as hard as it is, and as, as crazy as shit is that happens in this life.

Lisa: 1:50:53

Shit's crazy y'all, that's another takeaway, it's a takeaway from this episode, shit's crazy out there.

mark: 1:51:02

Yeah, it's wild, and there's also joy. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: 1:51:05

Also, you know, I think that sometimes we get it confused that, you know, we do the work so everything can be perfect. And that's just like, again, so, so far from the truth, we do the work so that we're not taken down every time shit goes wrong. You know, it's like life is still going to be presenting us with opportunities for pain, for sadness, for joy, for expansion. How we respond to life from a place of wholeness, from a place of being healed enough is like, that's the juice. You know, that's why we do the work because like your car is going to break down, you're going to get locked out of your house, you're going to lose loved ones, all that shit, all of those life experiences are still going to happen. It is how solid we are internally, how much we can hold, how much we can hold for ourselves and for others that when it comes down to like, that's, that's the thing.

mark: 1:52:06

Yeah. And can we come to this? I agree. And like, can we, you know, this situation that feels there's a quote I love, which is, there's nothing new under the sun, and yet it's all fresh. Like something along those lines. Right. All the quotes I've given today, like, please. Yeah. Love

Lisa: 1:52:25

them. Nice one.

mark: 1:52:28

It's like. We think that because we've gone through something And like we've learned a lesson to a degree that like we're fucking done, right? It's like yeah Yeah, totally like oh my god, like i'm fucking enlightened now I

Lisa: 1:52:47

have so much

mark: 1:52:49

Whatever. Yeah, something happens in my life I'm

Lisa: 1:52:51

just

mark: 1:52:52

gonna be like, hey god bless you and instead you're in traffic and you're like fuck you, dude You got to see me like driving there right and you're just like And you're like, Oh, so I think that it's so cool because as long as we're here and getting to experience this, there is going to be like deepening lessons and, you know, and it's not like a circle. I think of it more as like a spiral or like a funnel, right? And sometimes it can feel like we're just being flushed down the cosmic toilet with all the shit, you know, We're just like I thought I experienced this. What the fuck? However, like yes, you may have experienced something similar and Here's another opportunity for you to deepen your understanding Passion for you to deepen your curiosity for you to deepen your intimacy And like, that's, we're just going to keep going around and like learning more and like as we go, I think that's like, how boring, boring would this life be? You know, it makes me think of that Alan Watts thing I shared with you all, right? If you could dream any dream, you could dream, you would dream yourself to this moment right now. Yes. You know, like. Bye. Because, yeah, we would, we would crave, we would crave the unknown, we would crave inconsistencies, we would crave yes and, we would crave, yeah, the joy and the pain, we would, you know, the light and the sun, or the, you know, the darkness and the light, we would, we would crave all of that to experience itself because, yeah, consciousness is a psychic substance created not blindly, but in living awareness of opposites. So, like, we wouldn't have anything to know, this experience would not even be, we would not be here if there was not separation, if there was not something to other, someone else to other, something to talk about, something to look at. This would, it would be nothing, it would be nothing, you know, it's inevitable, we cannot describe it, there would be nothing here if there weren't contrast, if there weren't juxtaposition, if there wasn't all of it, and so that's what I say when I mean like it's all welcome here. Like, it's holy shit, like, it's all welcome.

Lisa: 1:55:34

Lessons from the dark, y'all.

mark: 1:55:36

Yeah.

Lisa: 1:55:41

That's what's up.

mark: 1:55:42

That's what's up. That's what's up.

Lisa: 1:55:44

Just some lessons from the dark.

mark: 1:55:47

Oh man, like it's a beautiful container and like I said, both a mirror and just a space like it, it held the space and offered me a chance to like look at myself. And I think that it's, if anyone's interested in it, it's a beautiful dive and you know, the door's unlocked. So I mean, if you're worried that you're going to lose your mind or something else, bitch, the door's unlocked. Like you can just flip the light switch on, walk out the door. You know, so that's like, that's just so beautiful because I mean, there's so many other things that require, if you're going to, you know, take four grams of mushrooms, put a blindfold on and earplugs in and go lie in the backyard on your own. Have you done this Mark? Make sure, make sure that you are safe, that you're in a good place. And that you are willing to sit with what comes up for the next eight hours. Right. And like, at that point there's no turning back. And so this for people who are curious about, you know, curious about anything, curious about themselves, curious about why we're here, curious about you know, maybe addictions they've had in the past, patterns they seem to repeat, stories, etc. If you've gotten You know, an inkling for curiosity and for, for seeing what's, what's within all that 95 percent or that also, I find it interesting that scientists think that dark matter and dark energy equate for about 95 percent of this fucking known universe. So, like, it's interesting that I think that, like, our consciousness is 5%, and also known matter in this world, in this universe, is 5 percent as well. I find it interesting that it's like, hey, if you've got any, Curiosity about what's out there and also what's inside. This is a beautiful container, a safe space, you know, where I did it. Could not, cannot say enough about the facilitators, yourself being one of them, obviously you know, the food, the experience, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa: 1:58:05

Yeah. So if you want to experience some of that 95 other percent of the universe, do a darkness retreat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's also like, it's sober, right? It's just you yourself, the darkness and whatever you're coming in with, which I also love. And I'm glad that you brought up that point of like, Hey, if it gets too much, you can turn on the lights. You can open the door. You have facilitators there that are there and trained to support you. So that's a beautiful thing. Whereas with some journeys that that is not available.

mark: 1:58:47

No, like hopefully I would, you know, set setting intention support, like for anything you are about to do, like I can't, cannot stress that enough. And all the. Containers, you know, with the exception of a couple whenever I'm, I've ingested plant medicines, I am supported. I am in a safe place. I know I am held and buckle the fuck up. Cause you got about six, six to 10 hours of like, buckle up y'all. Yeah, as much as you were supported and loved and held and in a safe place, you have committed to going on a journey here. So you know, and once again, it usually doesn't hold what you desire.

Lisa: 1:59:28

Yeah. So set your intentions, but spirit's going to show you. Yeah,

mark: 1:59:33

yeah. Set your intentions, but leave that preparation backpack at the, at the door because Because there is so much more to experience than than we are aware of that we experience in our day to day life and you know, just as I, I said that one spiritual teacher who I love and, and know who said, you know, you don't do ceremony to get good at ceremony. Man, like that darkness retreat was fucking beautiful. I'm going to do it again in my life. I know I will. And I'm not about to do it like next month. Like, no just as any time I've done mushrooms or any other type of plant medicine or altered my consciousness in some capacity, I'm not gung ho to dive straight back into it, man. Like, no, I'm actually like, I take the time and the space and I look to integrate, which is so important because if you're just hopping from one experience to the next, you're missing the point. That's right. And there needs to be sacred space and integration and support, and I'm in this realm, this experience, this sober, yeah, container, right? Before you, before you, uh, approach anything like that again, because Totally. The mind is, the mind is not something to mess around with, right? That's right.

Lisa: 2:01:01

Well, yeah. And I mean, further to your point, integration often requires action and that action is individual. So it depends on the person, like you were expressing earlier, Mark, you said about the judgment to the awareness, to the curiosity, to, you know, the compassion. That's a practice. That's actionable. That's something that was shown to you that if you weren't to at least practice that, that's not integration. Like that's the way that I see it. And of course you're not going to get it right all the time, but all of us are afforded these things that come up in the darkness that come up in the plant medicine that come up in these different experiences, whether that's to reevaluate our relationships, reevaluate our finances, to think of things in a different way. It's like, If we're not doing those things that came up in the ceremonies that we participate in with the intention that we want to do these things to be, to see things in a new way, we're not getting the thing that we went in for because it often requires us to take actionable steps, whether that's internally or externally. And that's just the way it goes. So when we're going from, you know, journey to journey to journey, the body's like, fuck man, I'm still trying to catch up from the last journey we did. Like we didn't do nothing about that one. And then all of a sudden you got all this baggage piled on to things that you wanted to do, but then you didn't do. And that makes it worse. I feel like, you know, not only did you do this experience and like unleash a bunch of stuff that you now have to look at. Now, there's all of these actionable, like, checklist steps that also haven't been taken. And so, that, to me Yeah, it just adds up and it continues to add up. So integration is extremely important.

mark: 2:03:01

Yeah. Because I mean, yeah, what's the point, what's the point, what's, what's the point, why am I doing this? And, you know, I think that I had an idea in my mind for quite some time that it was like, Yeah, I'm going to heal shit and then that's fucking it. And then like, I can like, if I don't, if I don't like that part of me, or if I deem that, you know, less than ideal, I can fucking heal it, look at it, whatever. And then I can like shove it away and move forward. But that's not it. I mean, you integrate and or address and bring with you because what happened to you, what you did to others. Things that were forced upon you or that you willingly went into that fucked you up or whatever trauma and life shit It is it happened. It happened And so it is a part of who you are today the lens you perceive this world through how you approach your relationships it's a part of you. So if you truly want to Become the, the most healed expression of yourself that you can, if you want to be capable of having the most honest conversation you can have with yourself and with the world, if you want that truly want that you need to look at and bring it with you shed light on it. learn to accept it, love it touch it, feel it and bring it with you. Fucking bring it with you. And cause that brought you here. And often, like, I think we think of trauma and shit as like, Where things that happened that were less than ideal is like, yeah, we demonize it. We like, we judge it. It's a part of life.

Lisa: 2:04:54

Just like death and birth. Yeah.

mark: 2:04:56

No, no. When in reality, it's like, look, you actually probably, you brought that up. You likely have brought that up. We're, we're party to it in some capacity or another, and you actually, you know, you needed to go through that. Mm-Hmm. And it probably, actually, what, I'm trying to think. What came about as a result of what you went through or what you did or what someone did to you. It served you at some time. Mm-Hmm. it, it served you at some point. You know, and so there might even be like a moment of like, oh, Pono Pono, right, which is like, thank you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. I love you. Like, like that, applying that to, to every bit of ourselves and others. So that, yeah, that, like, man, that, that Hawaiian practice just, like, man, that, like, encapsulates it all. Like, what else do you say? Like, like, I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. And I love you. Like, holy shit. Like, if, if that can be, man, if that can be, Expressed and felt by ourselves and and if we can be aware of that in our interactions with others and with the world, whoa, man, what is possible?

Lisa: 2:06:41

Wow. Not truly though.

mark: 2:06:53

It's

Lisa: 2:06:53

so good. Oh man. Okay. Like, I feel like we could probably talk about all of these things. I mean, to extent for another, like six hours, but I do have a few more things that I want to ask you. One of which is this, what was it like coming out into the light for the first time? So you knew it was coming, you're like, holy shit, I know it's been 72 hours, I'm gonna have my peeps outside waiting for me. Yeah. Just

mark: 2:07:28

trying to tap back into that for a second. Take your time. How vivid it all is. How much information is, like, granted to us and available to us just by opening our eyes, like, just one of our five senses. How colorful it all is, how perfect it all is, and how, like, the spaces in between are necessary. You know, like, like separation once again is necessary in order to witness anything. And it was a lot. Yeah, it was a lot. It was, it was kind of almost like, not almost, I think it was vibrating and pulsating which, you know, is true of everything in this material universe. Everything is vibrating, you know, whether we see it or not. Most of the time we don't. Opening my eyes, I was able to like almost see the vibrations which adds a great deal of appreciation and depth to the seemingly mundane. And, uh, yeah, I was able to obviously look you and, and our other friends in the eyes and no words were spoken and I felt, and I'm wondering if you felt, but just The volume, the depth of presence that was evident in our eyes meeting one another, right? Oh yeah. Like, like, oh my god. Wow. Mmm. How many times? Before, and down the road, will I take this seemingly simple thing for granted? Oh. Yeah. And, you know, a couple days later, I'd already fuckin forgot.

Lisa: 2:10:29

You

mark: 2:10:31

have

Lisa: 2:10:32

the video though, you can look back on it.

mark: 2:10:36

Totally. Oh, right. Right. Oh my God. Presence. Holy shit. Yeah. And like, that's okay, right? It's once again, the forgetting and remembering. The forgetting and the remembering, and coming back to this moment, and coming back to, to, to just what is, to, to just what is, what is here, and when we consider what is here.

Lisa: 2:11:02

Okay, this is a, okay, this is my last question, I think. I think, we'll see. I can't just leave this one out, because it's one I really want to ask, but, so you recorded a lot. You recorded something like 92 voice recordings. Which is amazing. But I remember you saying something like when you were recording there was this like judgment also that came up about like, is this good? Like, is this good? Like you thought you, you know, you had this epiphany and then you recorded it and you were like, that was ridiculous or whatever it was. And I find, I find that so interesting because like, even when we're alone, it's like this performance, like this rating system of like, was this good enough? Am I good enough? Even in the darkness, even when the recordings are likely, like never going to find other ears to listen to them other than yours. It's just like, Oh, well, do I need to keep this one? Like, maybe I just erase it. It was shit, you know? So I just, I don't know. I wanted to bring that up and I wanted to know your thoughts about that.

mark: 2:12:13

Yeah.

Lisa: 2:12:14

Yeah.

mark: 2:12:15

Yeah. I've only listened to like a handful of those actually yeah, which is interesting because I do think I'm going to like go back and listen to all of them and then I might delete them all. We'll see. I'm not sure. It makes me think of the Ronda story where he talks about, you know, he's a traveling guru and savvy, but he's got two fucking U Hauls behind him full of all this shit that he's carrying with him. Right. And and like, what are we holding onto? If we're holding on to these things, I feel as if it's, you know, you're almost telling the universe that there's not enough life, there's not enough juice, you know, that there will be enough moments, uh, to fill your cup down the road. So you have to hold on to all these things with fear of, of there not being enough. Yes, enough life, enough juice,

Lisa: 2:13:05

enough wisdom. Yeah. In this case,

mark: 2:13:07

it's

Lisa: 2:13:11

like, Oh man, I got to knock them out with this wisdom that I just got. Oh my God.

mark: 2:13:17

Well, like, look, that's really funny. And I'm glad you brought it up because, because yeah, it was like, it was like a tangible switch where I was recording some stuff and I was recording from a place of that was beyond. Beyond the need to perform, beyond the need to be perfect, beyond the need to be accepted, beyond the need to be good. There was shit that I was laying down, which I've still yet to listen to but I know that it was like, it flowed out of me so, so true and organic and void of effort that I know that it was coming up from the very place that I was sitting with. That was the intention, to sit with those. With everything else, with everything else besides Mark, right? And yeah, it was so funny because yeah, I was like, I was like, Oh yeah, I was like, Oh man, that was a banger. And I was just like, I was like, I was like, Oh yeah, here's another one. And I just like opened my mouth and it just like, Sucked. I'm like, I'm like, once again, that's just me. That's me judging. And that's right. I mean, but it did suck and it was so great. healing because I was just able to laugh at myself and just like laugh at myself and like oh man like that is medicine when it is available and when when you can right because Yeah, it was, it was so fun. It was like, yeah, I wanted to, things were perfect. And I was in this space of just allowing greater wisdoms and truths to bubble up from within me, which is not just something for me. Of course, this is with each and every one of us. Like there is deep, innate, Wisdom present within each and every one of us. Should we afford ourselves the time, the compassion and the space to allow it to come out? And and yeah, it was just fucking hilarious. Just, just laughing at myself. And I think that that's something that is, is just like, that's a big part of it. Like that's like, yeah, that's a big part of it. Laughing at yourself and like the cosmic tingle, right? Like, like, like, at the end of all this, you know, what is it if not just like an opportunity to experience it all? Yeah. And if laughter is not there, man.

Lisa: 2:16:28

It ain't for me.

mark: 2:16:29

Yeah.

Lisa: 2:16:30

No

mark: 2:16:31

doubt. Laughter. Come on. And like, that's one thing I've learned in the darkness. Right. That's a beautiful thing. It's like, yeah. It's not taking myself so seriously and loving myself and like being like, Hey dude, it's okay, man. It's actually okay. And like, you're going to keep trying and you're going to keep messing stuff up and you know, you're going to keep on. You know, trying one thing and opting to another, you know, getting into a relationship and then into another, you know, doing a career and then doing another. And that's okay. Like that's the impermanence of it all is like, is that too? It's another part of it is like, that's it right there, you know, like the impermanence of it. And yeah. And the beauty of it all and the ebb and flow and. The S in the nose and the, the yin and the yang and the male and the female.

Lisa: 2:17:31

Another takeaway, suck at something, it's okay. And then laugh at yourself.

mark: 2:17:40

Man, isn't that great? It is so great. So there's such beautiful medicine in life, just trying something, man, just try something like, give it a go, give it a go, who cares, who cares, because if you can lose yourself, totally, if you can lose yourself in like, strumming a ukulele, oh god,

Lisa: 2:18:00

don't get me started. You

mark: 2:18:04

know, yeah, like, I mean, It's, it's in the act. It's in the doing. It's not in the destination. It's not in like when I'm healed. It's like you're healed right now. Your, your expression right now is, is what it's all about. And that's what you're here to do. Yeah. To express, to experience, to be imperfect, and, and we're all just doing the same shit, man. We're all just doing the same stuff.

Lisa: 2:18:32

Yeah. You said it. It's like, it's in the doing. It's in the experiencing. It's like we can think about doing things all day long, but we're not going to get better at doing them until we're actually doing them. Yeah, taking action and doing the things that we love and sucking at it like wildly sometimes. Oh, yeah. You got to start somewhere. Yeah. It's like beginner, like white belt, you know, go in as a white belt and you will over time learn some things and do some things differently and probably progress. You know, it's like we don't, I think that we often do things to become experts in them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

mark: 2:19:10

Sure.

Lisa: 2:19:11

It's like, can we just do things because we enjoy doing things? And I think that takes away a lot of the pressure. And when we don't have so much pressure, we can actually learn more. That part of our brain that fires when it's like safe and wants to learn can just take in more information. So there's something there. Because it's safe. Cause it's safe. It's not a, it's not like meant for just performance alone or to become something from it. You're just creating because you want to, to create, you want to experience what it's like to play a song on the ukulele or to embroider or whatever it is to sew or to make clothing or to sing or whatever. It doesn't matter what it is. There's a part of you that wants to experience it. So like, let it.

mark: 2:19:55

Yeah. And that's probably your body, your inner wisdom, your spirit, or guidance being like, Hey, I don't know what this holds for you. I want to do it. Or whether it totally be like, Hey man, we're here and like, yeah, let's give it a go and let's see what comes up as a result of that. And once again, similar to all the things we've discussed, it likely will not be what you think it will be or what you are hoping to get out of it. It will actually probably illuminate many, any, many other emotions, areas, uh, directions and. Okay. Callings, right? And just, just by taking a step out in faith, you know, and step out in faith and it's for you to decide as well, you know, it's like you and you alone are the one experiencing this body, this story, this trauma, this. Healing, this joy, this, ah, this, you're, you're the only one seeing the world through those eyes and speaking to the world and to yourself through that voice, you are the only one. So try to find the trust in yourself.

Lisa: 2:21:11

It's worth the squeeze. It's worth the squeeze, it truly is. Dude! Mark, my friend, you're epic. I just want to thank you for hanging out today and yeah, sharing your experience, your journey, deeper parts of yourself. It was just, it's such an honor and such a gift to hear more about you. So thank you.

mark: 2:21:42

my friend. Yeah, the joy. It was great joy in having that conversation with you and Being intimate with you, uh, for, for, for others to witness. Because I mean, you know, what's the point if we're not sharing it? You know, it's sharing. So it feels great to share with you. And I'm so grateful to you and to your platform and audience. And it's to sharing more and discovering more together and also a lot of our own.

Lisa: 2:22:10

Hell yes. So speaking of sharing, Can you tell us where people can find you if they want to know more about your experience or they want to, you know, hang out with you?

mark: 2:22:26

Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can follow me on Instagram if you'd like saucy. Closet is my handle. You can search Mark Clawson and you'll find me there. Yeah, I am. I'm continually trying to, to share more vulnerably and openly and just trying to have beautiful conversations, uh, with myself and with people who are along for the journey and with the world and yeah, follow along and drop me a line and Yeah.

Lisa: 2:22:55

Wonderful. I'll put that in the show notes as well. So I appreciate you so much. Thank you for being here. Enjoy the rest of your day in beautiful Panama. Drink more coffee, maybe. It's only 1 30. I'll probably still do that.

mark: 2:23:10

Yeah, I could probably go for another one.

Lisa: 2:23:13

I'm definitely going to go for another coffee after this.

mark: 2:23:16

Oh, so good. Yeah. so much, Lisa. So much love to you, my friend.

Lisa: 2:23:20

So much love to you. And until we talk again. Bye. Bye for now. Yeah. As always, thank you so much for listening. Life is busy. So it means even more that you're carving out time in your day to be here. Listen, we've got so many great episodes coming up, so please make sure you subscribe to follow along on Apple podcasts or Spotify. And for those of you who like to watch your podcasts, we are now uploading them to YouTube. And if you appreciate these episodes, please do us a favor and leave a rating or a review and share it with anyone you think could benefit. See you again next Wednesday.