Rachel: Get Better at Dating (How to Use Tradition, Tech, and Community to Find Love)

In this episode, Derek sits down and talks with Rachel, Founder and CEO of social media app Keepler. Rachel shares her own story of her journey into and out of academia by way of English Literature, Poetry, an MBA program and a Pandemic-inspired dating journey that found her pivoting, not just once but multiple times, considering not only her own intentionality and authenticity in her quest for love and a family. 

She blends old-school small-community type tradition with new technology, community "experts", her go-to's in her own life, and a solid support team in life and business.  She and her team invent something so others don't have to reinvent the wheel and she brings it to you, dear listeners.  

Transcript

0:02

Hi, good morning listeners and welcome back. This is Derek with the Sage in Time podcast. I am with Rachel Abramowitz. I just, I believe is how we pronounce that. Um, I should have asked, um, Rachel is the CEO / Founder of a company called Keepler, they've developed a wonderful app and I've been having the pleasure over the last month or so of chatting with Rachel on and off, finding some community within the app and We're here to talk about dating, a little bit of Rachel's story, and kind of see how she made the journey through her life to where she is today, and what's going on in her world. So Rachel, good morning. Glad to have you here, even though here is wherever we happen to be, right? Exactly. Thank you so much for having me. I am so, so thrilled to be here and to talk to you, one of our super users, I would say. So you are an MVP over at Keepler. Appreciate that. Thank you. So give us your journey if you don't mind. Let's start out strong. Sure. So I used to be an academic. I thought I was going to be an English literature professor. So I went through all the requirements. I actually did an MFA in poetry, and I'm still a poet, thank goodness, and then went into a PhD in English literature, and I thought that was going to be my path. It turns out that academia is not quite what I'm built for, I think. There are some issues in academia at the moment that I wanted to avoid. So I decided to do essentially a 180 and go to business school because I have always liked to invent things and see problems and then invent ways to fix them. And I thought that this would be an interesting way to understand the entrepreneurial world, sort of how the business world works. And I had a problem that I wanted to solve. And the problem was... I had been dating in New York for about six years, and it was an absolute misery. It was so, so difficult. And I'm sure that decent people sort of became really corrupted in a way by the way that dating apps had shaped the dating paradigm and the expectations. And they created really... a landscape in which it was very hard to connect with people and find someone, if you wanted a long-term relationship, that's very hard to find. So I went into business school to think about, to start to research and to really deeply think about this problem. Why is this happening? Is it a true big cultural shift? Is it because of these apps? If it is because of the apps, what is it about them that is encouraging this behavior? What's the business model? just like every problem, what are the incentives, the constraints, the motivations, and how does something like this create behavior? And so I really had these wonderful two years to research the problem and start to come up with solutions. So where I am now from business school, we've, of course, changed a lot and iterated a lot and added a lot of new features and thought about the problem differently. So I've really been doing Keepler ever since business school. How long ago was that? That I graduated during pandemic 2020. So we had a couple of years out there, which, you know, sort of pandemic years, which were a little bit, you know, sort of still figuring things out. And then in the last two years, we've really accelerated. And I have a really marvelous team now and we are on the up and up. you took on more financial obligation to solve the world's problem. Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. There's been a lot of bootstrapping, a lot of sort of difficult sacrifices, but then we have, so we have had some initial investment, which has been a godsend. So we're going to go out for more very soon because we have, we've got big plans. We have a few angels, do we? Okay. do, which is terrific. But I'm telling you, the VC world is, again, it's sort of its own planet out there. It's amazing to watch. You do your own marketing to the VCs then. Your own elevator speeches, things like that. So pitches, absolutely. So we're putting together a new deck based on all the features that we have built and the changes that we've made. And we're going to go out with that in the next few months. That's really exciting. So the pandemic, I mean, graduation, we know that high school kids, high school was a bigger time. I'm not belittling grad school, but this was, sorry, this would have been your, what, fourth degree at this point, having done the PhD route. But so you graduated, you got your masters. and you're working on this app which was envisioned pre-pandemic. So how did the pandemic influence any pivot that you might have had to have done? It actually gave me an opportunity to practice what I was preaching. I was going on dating apps and using them in a very different way than I had in the past because no one was going out. You couldn't go obviously to any activities or bars or restaurants, whatever. And so I very consciously decided to use them differently to find someone for real. And so I went on, it had to have been 50 first dates over zoom. and I would schedule them a little bit like business meetings. I'd say, okay, you're from six to seven, you're from seven to eight, and whatever it was, and I could just look nice sort of from the top up. I could be in my pajama bottoms, which was fine. I wasn't spending any money, that was terrific. And yeah, that saved me a lot. And I could really frame these dates differently. I could say, I no longer want to go on this date make this person like me, whether or not I liked them, I liked them. I could say, what am I looking for? What kinds of things am I listening for? Both to hear and not to hear. What is the energy that I'm getting from this person? And really start to put the focus on myself and how the relationship was forming. Even, of course, you meet someone for the first time, you're forming a relationship already. and what is that relationship starting to look like? And it changed everything. It really, really did. I felt more comfortable saying thank you, but no thank you, and I always, I never ghosted. I made a point to never ghost. I always said, it was so wonderful to meet you. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed getting to know you. I don't think there's a future, but I wish you luck. Easy, easy like that. And... and really just kept my side of the street clean, sort of psychologically, I think, and went into this process with more integrity for myself instead of trying to fit myself into a shape that somebody might like. And I have to say that it worked. So I actually found my husband during pandemic on a dating app with, you know, over Zoom. And I just... knew that after I'd done all this calibration with people and really working on the both myself and sort of grounding myself and being very honest with what I wanted. I then was able to see that less about the superficial thing. So it was actually really interesting because you don't see someone's full self, right? You you're really encountering more of their energy. as opposed to like, oh, he's not this tall or doesn't mean this much money or whatever, whatever that people are trying to shop for now. It really was what is this person's sort of, as sort of a woo word for it, so their spirit. What is that like? And I knew that my husband was someone I wanted to be with when I had a terrible day, a terrible day. I had to fire someone for the first time. I was I was so, so bad at it. I did a, yeah, it was, I mean, I'm better at it now, but then was, you know, just a disaster. And I wanted to call him. And I realized that was a really good green flag. And I never call my family. I don't call friends when I have problems. I sort of really keep it to myself, but I wanted to call him. And as, and so eventually we got married. And I realized that I could teach this kind of process or at least this kind of framing to people so that they can make better decisions for themselves and to notice, observe what the differences are with one person versus another person. And that's how I knew is that there's something different about this person I'm noticing in myself that I want to call him. I want to hear his voice. I want to hear his opinion. I want to hear his take on things. And that If I wasn't aware of what I was doing, I'm not sure I would have made that good decision. I would have maybe dismissed it in some way, but I didn't. And so I want very much with Keepler to help people ground themselves, set intentions that are not sort of physicality based. I think there's a lot of that going on and understand who they are and what will truly enhance their lives and the life of their partner so that they can make even better life together, more than the sum of its parts. So that was a real validation, I think, of the research and the thesis that I had shaped over those last years in business school was like, I think I'm onto something. I think that people can really start to use this. And here we are. So fingers crossed. So Keepler is the result of your academic thesis for business school. both academic and personal. Yes, yes. You seem to, from our prior conversations as well as for our listeners, have a very high level of self-awareness. I hope so. Everyone has blind spots. I mean, my husband will tell you all day long about my blind spots. They're good for that, aren't they? Oh yes! But what do you do when you become familiar or acquainted with those blind spots? This is where I think you need other people. I think we have in our society, a very individualistic view of working on yourself, that you're able to go into a cave and be away from society and work on yourself and then come back and be this enlightened being. And I just don't think that it works for who we are and where we are today. I think we absolutely need people and we need community to show us gently and with encouragement and with kindness and compassion that we may be missing something and that there's a new perspective that we might entertain. And so it's, I think you grow more with people, which is why we live in society. We're herd animals, right? We can't live on our own. And I think psychologically we can't live on our own. And we... If you have the right people around you and you can, you know how to choose those people and exorcise the people who may not bring out the best in you or they want to hurt you or they want to sort of bring you down in some way, I think if you find the right people around you, they will tell it to you straight. They're not trying to hurt you. They are trying to say, hey, that doesn't fly for these reasons. You know, you hurt me or, you know, of course not intentionally, but everyone hurts each other unintentionally all the time. And someone who can be strong in their own self, reflect back to you what you're doing in the world and then say, hey, it would work better, it might work better if you did it this way or can you think about this avenue? When you say that, that really hurts me. I think that that's where you... If you have that self-awareness and you can quiet your ego, which I have a hard time doing most of the time, just like I'm sure most people, if just even for a split second, you can quiet the ego, you can say, oh my gosh, you're right. I am so sorry, I'm going to think about this and next time I'll do something differently. That's the key. You can apologize, you know, up and down, but if you don't change, then that's not really an apology or it's not a correction of a blind spot. So. I think that is also what community does. And what I hope Keepler will do is to say, is to allow someone a safe place to say, what is happening? I keep getting this kind of feedback or I keep this behavior keeps happening, or can you help me figure out what's going on? And maybe with that safe space and that compassion and that expert help, they'll be able to uncover those blind spots and start to address them. And that's all something that's missing from, we're not gonna name them, but the other dating apps in the world, is that community mindset. Can you talk more about that? Absolutely. So, I think it might work to think about it in comparison with dating apps. Because when you're on a dating app, it's a very individualistic, again, very isolated experience. Ostensibly, you have access to this huge pool of people, and that's what is promised. And it's mostly true. You do have access to a wider sort of... you know, bigger group of people, but you are encouraged to think about them in a sort of a dehumanized way. Because if you are, let's say you're at a thrift store or something and you're searching through all of these shirts, you know, you're searching for maybe a particular kind of shirt and the rest of the shirts are, you're sort of throwing them aside and you're picking through this pile. Because you know that most of them are not going to fit you. So why on earth would you sort of treat them with respect or anything? I mean, I'm not sure that the analogy holds perfectly, but there's an attitude I think that people come to dating apps with that is not conducive to really looking for someone in a sort of integral way. Community is different in that you are behaving in public. And we act very differently when we're behaving in public than we do when we're sort of behind a computer, individualistic, you know, no one's watching you. And I think that it brings out, I hope, the best in people. And you can ask your questions that maybe you don't feel comfortable asking certain friends or your family or, you know, Reddit. Reddit is great for that sort of thing, but you also don't really have the... safety of a community who's also going through the same thing that you are. I think that community, and here's another thing actually, we used to date in community. You used to date in your town, in your village, in your mini society and people knew you and you were vetted in some way and you were set up or you were arranged or something like that. And while we don't practice that so much anymore, at least in... sort of more, what would you say, sort of tech-centered societies, you, a lot of those things remain. So you do have to show your best self in community or you'll sort of be, you know, not allowed in. There's, there's a, there's a requirement of a certain level of decency to be. to be included in society. I think if there are people that we mutually know, they can say, not a good fit, here's why. Based on past behaviors, we're talking about blind dates. But with the idea of that person knows both of us. or those folks in the community know both of us, they're gonna rally with us. That's the traditional two ring wedding ceremony is bringing in two societies together, two small communities together, somewhat larger maybe. And the idea of we're going to support these people, this couple, our attendants, they're gonna do the same thing. And then. you know, in this highly mobile, even remote world we live in, how do we do that from afar? So we still need to, and it takes more work to keep in touch with everybody. You just reminded me when we were talking about vetting, it was my last year of my undergraduate. I went to engineering school. My last year of my undergraduate, I had a study group partner in my dorm room. I was an RA. And. I was emailing a friend of another friend of mine. We were just hanging out. And he's like, oh, who are you emailing? And I can see by the look on your face, listeners, you're not gonna get to see this, but I can see by the look on your face, you know where I'm going. Tell me about her. So I did. And I think they ended up, I was like, she's like yeah, I'll meet with him. Absolutely, you know, he's a friend. How long you guys been friends? We're in the same classes, we're in the same groups. And I had known her from an older major that I was in and we still maintain the connection. She also changed her major going to business school. And you know, I think it was two days later, they had a blind date. Unfortunately, the sad story is in the last year or so, they did divorce after 25 years. They got married the weekend that Princess Di was killed back in 1997. And I remember because that was the headline on the newspaper, the Washington Post, that weekend. So 25 years, they've got three beautiful children. I think that they still co-parent well, but they were both able to understand and pick up each other. values and strengths and you know do I call that a success I don't think 25 years is anything to shake a stick at but you know we were able to see them together at various events even though a few relocations happened but you know the community mindset the world is so huge and Mm-hmm. Back to those colleges, where did you do your undergraduate? I went to Barnard College in New York. that's you say New York, we're talking the city. Okay. Um, so I mean, undergraduate, I went to a school of 25,000 people for my undergraduate. I grew up in a town of about 6,000 for everybody. So, you know, it's not, it wasn't New York city. It was Western New York. And one of the things that I learned very quickly is The community is only as big, as only as overwhelming as your smallest community you've got. The more integrated you're in. So I went from 25,000 to an organization of about 330. And then a smaller organization within of about 36. And then even a smaller one of about 8. So you know, 8 people very tightly knit. And I've learned in the last 50 years that eight's about my sweet spot. So, you know, I'm an introvert. I go out in public. I might talk to eight people out of 50. I'm good. I'm good with that. Um, but they will be deeper conversations like this as opposed to, you know, something, no judgment to the extroverts, a little bit more superficial. Mm-hmm. You can't possibly, I mean, there's, it just literally isn't enough time. You know, you're sort of going for volume or depth. Exactly. But are you familiar with Malcolm Gladwell? So Gladwell wrote a book called, I think it was Outliers. And you and I chatted about this in our last conversation, where he talks about how, you know, do I want to go to a community college, start my education there, get my bearings, kind of get a feel for the experience before I go to Harvard? Where? I might be a valedictorian in my local, you know, 50, 50 member high school class. And then I go to Harvard and everybody's a valedictorian and president of this or that speaks 14 languages, all these other things. And now I'm the smaller fish in this ocean. And Keepler's trying to change that. You are trying to change that. Well, I mean, certainly it's it is it is truly a group effort. I work very well in collaboration with people and I will have an idea. And then I'm great at sort of brainstorm processing with people less less. So on my own, I can think about it to a certain point. And then I, again, need other people to bounce those things off of. But you're absolutely right. I think that in a wider community and we actually have just created new groups within the community that sort of further segment, I hope in generative ways, people who have the same problem or the same identity. So we are working now on implementing even more groups. But right now we have things like, you know, there's a women's only, women, you know, women identifying only group, men identifying only group, you know, people there's dating after divorce. Right. So so people do need micro communities. within the bigger community. You can be part of so many of these different groups and sort of these intersections of your identity and your need and your, you know, wherever you are in your dating milestones. And so get that support and give that value based on where you want to put your focus at that moment or the question that you have wherever that goes. So you're absolutely right. I think community is about assessing the size and then finding your place within it. And it's interesting. I think we'll see how it shakes out in terms of people who are the most vocal and the people who are the lurkers, who are also wonderful, who want to come on and watch, just see what kinds of things people are asking about and what kind of advice they can take from other people's questions. And even if they say, look, someone had the exact same question that I did, I don't feel so alone. And I got all these answers. Amazing. You know, fantastic. You don't, you don't have to speak at the party. You can just, you know, you can eavesdrop. We love it. So it's, it's really for who, whatever level you want to, you know, at which you want to participate, there is something there for you at Keepler. So. Does the team or you or I don't know how big the team is but do folks within the team and you've got some community leaders that are fantastic at putting together content, you know, kind of trying to see engagement. How do they reach out to folks who may be, you know, on the walls of that gym at the high school dance, you know, just kind of trying to see what's going on and where I might belong? I think asking them directly in private really helps to say, what would you like to see? I'd love to get to know you as an individual and ask you directly what would encourage you to participate. What are you not seeing yet that is maybe preventing you from asking a question or answering a question, whatever it is. And if they still don't want to, great. But still, stay with us. You can be on the gym walls looking in, you're still in the gym, fantastic. Like you're in there, you haven't left and we want you in there. So I think that there is a lot of outreach and a lot of different types of engagement to encourage. So it could be something, a big deep question about self-awareness or something self-growth or some big deep reflective question. Or it could be a super quick little poll, you know, like do you prefer going to coffee or a restaurant on a first date? I mean, just these little moments of I have an opinion and I wanna share it and here it is and you can see how other people are voting, right? It's a moment of connection that I think is quite valuable. Even though it seems like a trivial thing to ask, it actually... is deeper than that. It's how, you know, seeing just a moment of being seen and sort of stepping out there onto the gym floor. Well, we all have something to say. We all want to be seen to your point and heard. Somebody asked me my opinion, right? Whether it's a poll or whether it's, hey, you've been quiet lately, are you OK? I just want to check in. You're new? What do you think of the site? Let me know. And one of the things in our conversations is, you know, I've been pretty particular in, hey, can I offer you some feedback? Or, you know, I see some things having a tech background, not to some extent, but, you know, having an idea of these are my experiences, would this be valuable? And you've been like, I'll even hear complaints. That was actually one of your comments to me was, I'm okay with complaints because I can still learn something. For sure. Gosh, if you don't know what's going wrong for people, then you're lost. Like, you may as well shut up shop. Like, that's it. So at what point in your life did you realize you really value someone's opinion, even if it takes Rachel down a notch? Yeah, oh boy. That is, I don't think anyone's ever asked me that. I think it actually, I was trained in this kind of feedback actually in poetry school, because this was a two year MFA program and all it is criticism for two years. You know, you're making this art and you are presenting it to a group of people. who, yes, are your friends, but are there, some of them are there to help you become the best poet you can, and some will never get what you're doing, and that's fine, and some just want to be mean. So it's really about discerning which kind of feedback is which, and which feedback you take that will make your poem better and which will just totally destroy it. And I've done it all. Like I have, you know, I've thought, oh, these people, they really, you know, the really mean ones are the ones who, you know, always go after me with a particular tone or something. They must be right because, you know, they have this many publications or whatever it is. And over time you realize that it's just deflating the poem or it's now a, you know, just husk of its former self. And then you listen differently to other people and you say, okay, like, I think that this person is at least understanding my intention. Let me work toward that person's feedback. So, and then the poem will sort of break free and come alive and you're like, oh my gosh, I didn't see that. It means another sort of blind spot, right? An artistic blind spot. I didn't see that either I do this over and over or, you know, this is my crutch or this is my, you know, I'm making an excuse here or I'm being lazy or I'm being. afraid here in this line. I'm not really telling the truth. And someone can say, hey, I don't think you're telling the truth here. What is your truth? It's okay, tell me. And that's like, oh my God, like that's invaluable. I just, gosh. So I think that your feedback is very much like that, is I can tell that you want this thing to succeed. And so your feedback is exactly that, is how can we make this product even better? you know, yes, it's, you're pointing out something that's wrong, but like, my God, how wonderful I would never would have known. Like, let's, let's all make this better. So, um, so it really is about feedback discernment if you want to give it a noun. Well, no, I mean, I've never heard it put that way. But you use the word, what's the intent? What is the intent of the feedback? Is the intent, going back to poetry school, your MFA program, poetry school, going back to grad school. I call it a therapy school. So yeah. But the intent matters. And you're able to see the intent. A lot of people aren't. A lot of people are like, you're just mean. Or, you know, or they take that feedback and as you said, you know, the result is a shell of a product that you wanted to create. Whether it's Keepler, one of those other inventions you've considered and are in your notebooks over the years. Or your poetry. You want... I think we all want to put our best selves out there. I don't think anybody really doesn't want to do that. But I also think that if somebody isn't, from a clinical, psychological perspective, social perspective, if somebody isn't, there's some pain there for some reason. And... Oh, yes. I'm sure, especially with the emotional component of an MFA program, there's a lot of pain. I mean, anybody can read poetry and see that there's, you know, the broad spectrum of human emotion in the words and in the soul of the words. So how did you learn to intention discern? Mm-hmm. think it's, well, first of all, I'm not by any means perfect at it, or even super great at it. Sometimes I'll get a piece of feedback, and I will miss misinterpret it and something will go awry. But it's actually in the implementation of that feedback, I think, that you get more information about its intention. So you can say, Okay, let me and using the poetry this suggestion and if you can look at the product after you've implemented it, is it more alive or did you kill it? And then you can say, all right, well, I don't, that wasn't right. And what's great about sort of a tech product like this is you can test it, you can do those iterations very quickly and if something is not working, you can change it. And just like you've saved your document, your previous draft of your poem, this is poem draft number 75. And you're just like, you have all the drafts so you can go back, but you can do experiments. And that's what's so wonderful about being a startup is that there's a lot of very difficult things, but what's great is that you can do these experiments and you can ask questions and you can get rapid feedback based on a direction you're going. And then... you can change it and if that's not working, you can change it back. So it's not necessarily like, ah, you know, you get a piece of feedback and you're like, this is the good kind and I know it's the good kind. There is some experimentation to be done, but then it also depends on the relationship you have with the person who's giving the feedback. So again, like from you, I know that your intention is good. I know you now enough to know that. I, you know, if some like, a person who just comes on and says, you know, this whole thing sucks and I hate it. I can be like, okay, like tell me more, you know, let's establish a rapport and you know, tell me specifically what's going on. What is it that is not working for you? What do you not like? And the absolute win is if they do keep talking to me, if they just delete it, then I have no more access to that person's thoughts and feelings, you know, that's it. So. So let me get to know this person and then we can say, if they're like, I want a feature whereby you can like, buy a dog or something, it can be like, well, okay, that's interesting. That's not quite aligned with what our mission is, but like, what is the need behind that? And is there something else we can extract from that request? What is it that we're trying to, the need that this person's trying to solve for? So I think in that way. There is a way through, but sometimes people are just gonna be like, I hate this and I hate you and I hate your dumb face and you know, you should just probably like quit and you know, you can be like, okay, thanks. And I'm not going to do that. noted. So who are the people in your life? And I can't imagine. I mean, I'm starting a business right now. I cannot imagine, you know, having investors and your team and now you've got consumers of your product or service. When do you turn off Keepler in your brain? Ooh, I think I actually dreamt about it last night. Like I was just thinking, I'm like, even when I sleep, and I'm like, no, I definitely saw messages in my mind last night. I think I'm at least able to turn it off, I have to say between five and six, which is when I have my, my husband and I have a 19 month old daughter and we feed her and like we do it all together. Like, you know, he's finished with work and I take this break and from five to six, like. You know, we feed her, we play with her, we give her a bath and put her to bed and like, you know, read her books and stuff. And I'm just psychologically, you have to be like, nothing else exists. Right. Nothing. Yes. intentional, mindful present. Mm hmm. As much as I possibly can. And yeah, I but really it's humming in the background. Most of the you know, the rest of the day for sure. Sort of a at least a horizon note, you know, throughout the my entire existence at the moment. So if I message you between five and six, I don't want to see any responses. Okay, yes, my phone will be across the room somewhere else, yes. if, if odd, odd moment, if it does happen, I'm going to give you grief. Thank you, yes, hold me to my present-ness intention. So who are your people, you know, in those, whether it's supporting you with Keepler, supporting you, you know, spiritually, developmentally, all of those, you know, as a mother, as a wife, as a member of your community, who are your feedback accepting kind of people? Well, I mean, certainly my husband's number one for sure. He is so, one of the things I noticed about him and wanted to be around for the rest of my life was how self-aware he is and how he is constantly working on himself and his blind spots. And we, I mean, we certainly fight and we certainly have conflict, but I've never met anyone who can come back from conflict the way that he can and can repair and. and is teaching me how to do that. I didn't necessarily grow up that way, and so he's teaching me a lot every single time. My sister also, she is actually an artist. She's a painter, a full-time painter. She's very successful, and she is completely brilliant at human motivation and emotion, and she should have been a therapist. I mean, she really could have been a brilliant, brilliant therapist. Um, and, and she has Theropized me many, many a time and pointed things out. Yeah. And, but, but I've asked her for it. I mean, like, can you, like, I am so stuck into this, whatever conflict, either, you know, it's, it's a, it's a work conflict or it's a personal conflict or whatever it is, you know, help me untangle this and, you know, I have all my blinders are on because I'm so angry or upset or whatever it is, like. she has that objective perspective, which is just one of my absolute best friends for that. And then my co-founder, Sam, he and I worked so well together because he sees things from kind of a completely different experience angle. So he has worked on startups since he was 17 years old and he knows business, he was in finance and he has an operations background and he had his own company at one point. And so... I'm learning from him absolutely every single day. And yet I'm also bringing, I think, a different type of management style to the table that he may not be used to. I mean, he's kind of used to the, I don't know, Silicon Valley, like really, what would you say? More difficult personality to work with maybe? Those like, you know, really... the people who fly off the handle, you know, quite often. So I think he's also getting used to my style and so learning from each other. And then, yeah, I think that those people are my sort of top people. And I don't think we need a lot of those people, but we need, you know, back from that breath or death, we need the right people. We need the right people. that's the key to life. The key to life. Now you said co-founder, Sam. I've interacted with Sam a few times as well. I still have to fill out some applications for him. But one of the things that, the first thing that comes to mind is you say co-founder, so you're equals for this. That's a huge risk. How did you navigate finding Sam? I mean, Keepler's your concept, so you're the one that's like. bringing in somebody, this is my idea, there's a lot of trust there. Yes, it is. People told me before, they're like, it's like a marriage, watch out. And I'm like, oh, ha ha. But no, it is. Like it is because you are so close and you are you're to have this baby together and you're like nurturing this, you know, this thing, this entity, and you are going through personality clashes and somebody says something that doesn't land well. And they said it in the wrong way. And they were. they were angry in the moment or they were overwhelmed in the moment and they said something and you have to do that repair because you are raising this company and it needs you and it needs both of you. And he came on, so he's been with Keepler for I think just over a year now and I was doing it by myself for a long time and going slowly and I did need someone who had the experience and knowledge that I did not. is not being in business, right? Like you sort of learn, right? You learn the theory, but the doing is often wildly different and totally unpredictable. Actually, it's funny, my dad likes to say that business is like, there's a football up in the air and it's coming down and you have no idea how it's gonna bounce, right? Which direction it's gonna go, you know, who's gonna catch it? Like, is it gonna, you just don't know. And so. you need someone else who's watching that ball and is sort of trying to get their hands around it in a way. And I didn't want a co-founder for a long time, I think because I was afraid, because I was afraid of losing control or the idea being changed in a way that I didn't like. And what I have discovered is that it's less about that and more about the two people together totally different skill sets coming together like puzzle pieces being like, you know, you can do all of this and, but you can't do this. I can do this, but not this. And when you find that person, that is your co-founder and you believe in this thesis, you believe in this product and you are facing, you know, facing it together. Um, and I, you know, it like, like a marriage, you go through all that. growth and regression and conflict and resolution. And then, you know, you hope that you just get better, you know, the next time you're stronger, the next time, if it's meant to be, which I hope very much it is. When I think about the two of you working together, there's a therapeutic approach called strength-based. You know, what are we good at? What are we good at? Or, you know, what are my strengths? Is it more important to spend more time building my strengths or going for those low-hanging fruit of our challenges? I don't wanna say weaknesses, but our deficits. And if we can find the right people to fill in where we're not strong or as strong, then we can focus on what we're good at because I'm gonna throw out a made up statistic and say 95% of the people will say, I enjoy the things that I'm good at. I don't enjoy the things that I'm bad at. All right? You know, me, I don't enjoy basketball. Am I gonna play basketball? Probably never. Thinking about your football analogy, and it sounds to me like your parents are fantastically supportive. But your football analogy, once somebody catches the football, then we have to protect the football. We have to protect the person carrying the football. Might be you, might be Sam. And at home, it might be you. It might be your husband. So you and Sam, but that was, you said you were scared of adding a founder. Mm-hmm. It's not a 51/49. It actually, so I do currently have the most control over the company, but he is very, very close. Like he's major, yeah, major shareholder. I understand that there are financial benefits with regard to government taxes, things like that, in a 51-49 situation. He's got your ear and you've got his. The vision is the same. We agree on a vision. We agree on goals. Also equally important in a marriage. The behaviors are the things that we talk about cognitive dissonance. My behaviors don't align with my goals. Mmm, yes. in fact, one of the, couple of suggestions that I sent to you this morning, I was like, look, these may cost you more money than you gain, right? I think, I don't know if you've read that message yet, and you're like, nope, just keep bringing the feedback. It's helpful, you know, there's some trust there, I think. But when the behavior doesn't match the goals, or the values, why are we doing the thing? Yeah, consistently. Like I think when that's consistent, like the behavior can go off the rails a little bit, but as long as it's corrected in a way, like you know, you repair and come back, great. But it does sound like in a marriage, it's the unwillingness to come back or the willful repetition of sort of a non-goal aligned behavior. Like that's where the problems arise. Yeah. Can we go into a little bit of a personal, we've got a few minutes left, I know. I've got some other commitments and you do too. Can I ask you a personal question? Have you done, have you been through therapy? Oh gosh, I love therapy. Oh my God, if I ruled the world, everybody would be subsidized for therapy. Absolutely, yes, I've been in therapy since. of your everybody gets a. Oh, you bet. Yeah, you get therapy and you get therapy. 100%. I think it is absolutely essential, you know, just for human beings because our, oh, I could go on. But like, you know, our, I think the way in which we live and the way in which our minds are structured is, they're often at odds. And I think, you know, you need an objective third party. to help you sort that out. And again, the blind spots and the feedback and the, therapy is not just like, oh, poor you, that's like, it's not your fault. It's sometimes it's your fault. And like, here's what you need to fix. And so it's hard. That's why it's so hard. Yeah, yeah. consequences are the result of something I did. And I don't like the consequences. I'm uncomfortable. And now, you know, oftentimes we say therapy is about getting unstuck. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. But sometimes you feel that the devil you know is being in your own way and being stuck. You're like, I know, I know this, this at least I know. And getting unstuck can be really scary because you're like, well, what can that lead to? But then you're with someone who, you know, your therapist, who, if it's the right person, is going to be with you as you discover what's on the other side of that stuckness. and you found the right therapist. Yes, and I, you know, it's a little bit like dating, right? When you're finding a therapist, you really do have to feel out the relationship that you're building between you in the first couple of sessions. And if it's not right, move on, you know, keep looking. I've often told folks in my group practice when I was with them, I'd say, look, you can ghost me if you want. If this is a, I'm okay. I mean, I don't take, if somebody ghosts, that's on them, right? But, you know, I'll tell, the first session for me is always about, there's a lot of questions and answers. I'm gonna have a lot of questions. I'm gonna be seeking answers to kind of figure out how we're gonna work together. Not that I'm saying we can't, but just what the process might look like. At the end of the session, I'll tell you what my thoughts are. Likewise, this is a job interview for me. Patients' Bill of Rights, you don't have to stay with a provider you're not happy with. So... Mm-hmm. And I don't know. I know we actually have some overseas listeners. So this is a, the patient's bill of rights is a U S thing. Um, other countries may have their own kind of formulation of that, but I'll say, you know, you can let me know. I don't think you're a good fit. You can call my, call my admin, let her know that's fine. We don't have to set up anything if you don't want to a few weeks, you know, we can only do a few sessions and you can say, you know what? I thought I could get there based on our rapport so far, but we're not going to get there. I'm not sure. Maybe it's something I'm not ready to talk about. What have you. Our friend Paige will be able to probably pull this out of her head and say it's a high number of... that probability of therapeutic success of goals is based on the level of trust and You know how well we can work together You know, I don't That all sounds like dating also. It is, but most people stay with the first therapist that their insurance says you can see or the first one that's available. And I mean, I'll be honest, I tell my patients as well, most of us are in therapy. I think I'm on number five right now in the course of 27, 30 years. Yeah. relocation, different things going on. I want to find somebody who's an expert in XYZ that I'm going through in the moment. So we have specialties like grief work, relationship work, drugs and alcohol addiction work, that kind of stuff. So, and even managing work-life balance, which nobody knows better than an entrepreneur. It's like more like I know about work-life imbalance, but Well, okay, nobody is... And I won't say nobody is working toward it, but I'm sure that there are some that are not working toward it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's, it is a daily, sometimes hourly struggle, for sure. sure it is. And as you're you said 19 month old, as she gets older, you know, you're gonna have the, you know, who do we call first? Who do we call second? And comedians would say, why are you calling me? I'm third on your list. I'm the stepparent. That's a hat tip to Andy Woodhull. But, you know, and even somebody... one of my earlier chats with Dr. Stoehr, Angie Stoehr out of Dallas, Texas. She says, you know, why are you calling me? I'm second on your list. Call my husband. He's my CFO, my COO, everything else for my business. Don't call me. Do you have his number? So, so kind of managing that. Yeah, drawing those boundaries, absolutely. It's hard, it can be difficult to draw boundaries, but they are necessary, absolutely necessary. And your boundaries are about how you're going to handle situations. You're not telling other people what to do. Outside of work. Yeah, right. Right, sometimes I get told what to do, which I'm perfectly happy to go then do it. Yeah. Because you value the feedback and you value the intention of those people offering that feedback. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. You know. Yes, yes, that is also the key. either by each other, some of them knew each other. I mean, I'm sure somebody pointed Sam in your direction. Yes, actually Sam and I have been friends for almost 10 years maybe. But he was always doing his own thing and I was always doing my own thing. But then, you know, serendipity and fate, I think. Just he decided to do this and I needed someone. That's one of those, hey, if neither one of us are married by the time we're 29, kind of situations, right? Totally different though. But, um, Rachel, tell folks how they can find Keepler um, get involved if they want to either apply unlike what I haven't done yet, but, um, to become an expert on the site or if they want to explore dating a new way, a different way. Absolutely. So our website is Keepler.com, K-E-E-P-L-E-R. And the app is on the app store under Keepler. And you'll see it says, get better at dating. And we are not yet a matching app. So we are not technically a dating app, but we are a dating support app. So you could be on all the other, you know, Bumble, Hinge, Tinder, on, on. You could be dating in real life. You could be being set up. and we are here to help you get better at dating wherever you are in that journey. So we have a community, we have an expert marketplace where you can find dating coaches and matchmakers, relationship coaches, and we're coming out with a couple of new, really cool features in the next few months, so stay tuned for that. And yeah, I know it's gonna be very exciting. We have big plans. Well, Rachel, I appreciate your time. Unfortunately, I think we both have commitments pretty soon. So let's talk again soon, either, especially in the next few months after things roll out. I'd love to hear all about it. Terrific, terrific. Thank you so, so much. You ask wonderful questions and I'm so thrilled to be on your podcast. Thank you. you. Good seeing you. Have a great day. Bye bye.