Anne: Finding Herself In an Unknown Emotional Place (TW: injury, death, trauma; CW: brief discussions of human sexuality)

In this, the 10th episode, Derek sits down and talks with Anne, a recent widow who, with her wife, had rescued several special needs dogs.  Anne openly and candidly offered an interview to share her own mental health journey, including why she believes that mental health therapy has been and continues to be so crucial to her own healing.  She truly values the experience that she has had in therapy and is "beyond grateful" for the gifted and compassionate therapists she's been fortunate to work with.  

She shared the importance of a community that "gets me", and affords her the safe space she needs to process her experiences of the past and her growth into the truth of who she is as a fully present human.  She wishes to confront the gamut of human experience including emotion and relationships.

Transcript

Derek (00:01.678)
Hi listeners and welcome back to the Sage in Time podcast. This is Derek Wittman Today I am joined by Anne from Phoenix. Anne we're just gonna get started because you and I have probably already talked about a good chunk of things we could get into, but we will see where we go. Gonna keep this organic. You and I have had minimal conversation getting into this. You said, hey, I wanna talk. I'm willing to help out with the podcast.

no promotion of anything, but you're here. Tell us your story.

Anne (00:41.256)
Oh Lord. No, because the story is so all encompassing and yet can be simplified. So yeah, I volunteered because mental health is really important to me and I don't have any stigma related to it. I've never allowed it to be stigmatized or made to feel bad that I...

Derek (00:43.246)
We weren't expecting that.

Derek (00:53.547)
where you wanna go.

Anne (01:09.576)
I suffer from anxiety and depression. I suffer from mental issues, always have for as long as I can remember and have been medicated until recently for over 25 years to cope with it. So I've always been very out, very open about my struggles and my challenges with my mental health. So when I saw it, I was like, sure, why not?

Derek (01:36.302)
Sure, why not? And I appreciate your being here. Really means a lot to me. You went off of medication after 25 years though.

Anne (01:47.248)
Yeah, I've been, I had maxed out on Effexor. I'd been on it for about 12 years and I maxed out. They added some Wellbutrin view trend shortly after the sudden passing of my wife in June, which we can get into that in a little bit. But I was, I'm also seeing, my health is incredibly, not just my mental, but my physical health is incredibly important to me because there's such connection between

emotional, mental health and physical health. And so I'd started seeing this incredible nurse practitioner and she did a ton of blood work and started evaluating some stuff that has caused chronic issues for forever. The running joke was I worked too hard, I tried too hard to be healthy and still as sick and feel as miserable as I did. So one of the things she noticed is that some of my

hormones and whatnot were off the chart, epinephrine and some of the dopamines and stuff like that. So in working through her, working through my therapist and working through a brand new psychiatrist, cause my psychiatrist had retired, we talked about med management. And did we want to switch me to just the newest and greatest and latest of the medications? And one of my concerns is the side effects associated with psychiatric drugs.

and that being able to enjoy certain aspects of my life, especially my sexuality, we all decided, let's give it a try. So I did a step down under the oversight of my doctor. I will admit, I went as fast as she would let me. So when it said, stay on this amount for two to four weeks, at two weeks, it was down to the next one.

Derek (03:18.399)
Right.

Derek (03:45.154)
Yep.

Anne (03:47.064)
So yeah, I mean, that has been a journey. My emotions definitely will swing a little more, but I've found that I'm more mindful of them and I'm more aware of them. And so I'm able to cope with them a lot better. So, so far I've been off my medication, again, under the oversight of doctors and therapists for about two months now. And seem to be doing really good. Yeah.

Derek (04:11.822)
two months.

That's fantastic. I'm glad to hear it. As you know, some of our listeners, most of them probably know if they're here for mental health kind of content. They know we don't just go cold turkey on that stuff because of the danger involved. And a lot of and.

Anne (04:30.108)
right. Yeah. So, no, I, um...

Anne (04:38.368)
Well, I was going to say my very first medication I was put on way back. Actually, it was when my first girlfriend broke up with me. The first love of my life. I was put on Paxil and, and did amazing for the first year and then got the entire grocery list of side effects. So I, I went cold Turkey and it was miserable, but it was worth it to me because the side effects were so.

And I was young. I was young and stupid. I didn't have really good medical health care. So I didn't have good follow-up and stuff like that. So I did the dumb thing. And I went off cold turkey. And I'll never do it again. Definitely never do it again. So, yeah. But, yeah, that's why it was really critical for me to actually find a new psychiatrist. My previous one had retired. And then get it taken care of. So...

Derek (05:31.834)
I've spoken with other folks about the effects of, you know, from their own experience of going cold turkey, just dropping the dose. And of course, for our listeners, always seek medical advice. I am not medically qualified to give you that advice. And as far as Like the sexual side effects. Those are some of the most common complaints.

when it comes to psychiatric medicine. You're not surprised by that. I'm not surprised by that. I've had folks ask me, what do you think about this versus that? So I'll be like, okay, here's what I know secondhand, but please consult your physician.

Anne (06:01.4)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (06:18.677)
Right. And for me it's been this weird journey with the passing of my wife but gaining my health they kind of intersected. It was like death of wife gaining health. And one of the biggest things I realized is that my amino acids were so low and have been so low for so long that none of my I didn't have sexuality nothing functioned. Nothing.

I, my sex drive was almost non-existent. Um, yeah. So that was interesting to have all that hit. And then it all of a sudden mattered. So prior to that, it didn't matter with any of the side effects. I mean, any of the sexual side effects, it didn't matter. I mean, it was irrelevant. But now that, um, my, um, my health is coming back, it matters now. And so that was one of the reasons I started looking into it is, you know, um,

Probably the biggest one is just the lack of an orgasm, which is critical for a lot of sexual health and whatnot. So that's one of the things that really drove me into looking into it and starting researching it and then talking to specialists.

Derek (07:25.07)
charges.

Derek (07:33.968)
And there's an autoimmune benefit. I mean there's tons of benefits associated with climax. So, you know, when you're looking at your medical health, you know, we're talking the physical, but also the physiological, how our bodies work.

Anne (07:40.385)
Yeah.

Anne (07:49.841)
Right.

Yeah.

Derek (07:52.827)
So you're finding improvement then.

Anne (07:56.664)
I am, about a month and a half ago, I came down with a sinus infection and I just seemed to not, a lot of stuff is going on with my health. We're trying to figure it out, which of course, physical health, which is of course impacting my emotional and mental health. Interestingly enough, I...

Couple of weeks ago, I was overdoing it, feeling rundown and everything, and I decided to do an impact scene with a friend of mine that involved some rope work. And never in my life, never in my mind did I ever think that type of play could also impact my immune system.

And so I've got some friends in the community that I spend time with and hang out with and was asking them about it. They're all nurses. I'm surrounded by a bunch of nurses. I don't know how that works. But that's been one of the interesting things. Being new to the community is taking into consideration that some of the play that I do, not just the emotional stuff.

Derek (08:53.026)
That's wonderful though.

Anne (09:07.772)
not just the connections and everything, but some of the physical play also plays into the immune system. So that has been really eye-opening and challenging to figure out what to do with that and how to get better. I'm slowly getting better, but it's just taking longer. So trying to figure out, again, my life changed seven, eight months ago. So this is a second life for me in a lot of ways.

Derek (09:36.406)
Big change for you.

Anne (09:38.825)
Yes.

Derek (09:41.858)
No, before we started rolling, we were talking about you had encountered an injury on your arms. You had fallen or ran into something. So I would imagine, and you said, I'm a klutz, that plays a part in your immune system too. From what you're saying, so this is a completely new world for you then.

Anne (10:00.769)
Yes.

Anne (10:07.22)
Well, absolutely. And things are actually functioning. And that doesn't always mean they function well. So that's been a really interesting take home from, like I said, it's been this really weird journey to have lost the person that I'd been with for 22 years. We were not perfect. We were actually going through a really rough time in our lives. And she passed suddenly from a medical,

Derek (10:24.046)
Hmm.

Anne (10:37.84)
a blood clot to the lungs after a medical operation. And so thrown out into the world all by myself with way more dogs than I care to disclose publicly, I probably will. And like I said, getting my health and the gift of health. And so...

in talking with some of my friends and what do I want, what am I looking for in everything. I was drawn to the community because it's something that had always existed in the back of my mind, but I never had the health or the sex drive to actually do anything with it. And so it always existed just in my mind and it was always just something that was like, wouldn't it be nice to experience? So that's been this weird awakening.

of all elements of myself, my mental, my physical, my emotional health. It's just been a really interesting journey.

Derek (11:34.502)
Thank you for that. I'm so sorry that she passed so suddenly. I mean, you weren't ready for it. It sounds like you still have some unfinished emotional business. Or has your therapist been working through that with you?

Anne (11:47.936)
We've been working through it. I'm at peace. I don't know how else to say that. It was a genetic abnormality that her family has that led to it. So it wasn't when or it wasn't if it would ever happen. It was when. In a lot of ways, she saved the life of the rest of her family because they all are carriers. It's 100%. And

Anne (12:15.24)
Yeah, and so in gaining my health, in gaining my confidence, in gaining all of these things, she was going the exact opposite direction. She was declining in her health. She was declining in her mental wellbeing. I was trying to urge her to go seek help herself. We had gone through couples therapy and counseling, which had been a great gift for both of us. So I'm not sure how...

how our relationship would have held together and moved forward, getting my health, actually starting to consider things, actually having, feeling good. It's incredible what it's like to feel good when you've only ever felt bad.

Derek (13:02.106)
with your physical health, mental health, she spent a lot of time caring for you or vice versa.

Anne (13:03.072)
with you.

Anne (13:08.)
more than person? She was a type 1 diabetic. So we kind of cared for each other, which was a really interesting situation, because I cared for her the way I wanted to be cared for. She cared for me the way she wanted to be cared for. And it was a huge chasm disconnect. I want to be babied. I want to be waited on. I want to be cuddled. I want to be coddled. She wanted to be left alone.

checked on to make sure she still had a pulse. So it was always a challenge when one of us wasn't feeling well because we never seemed to be able to get it right with caring for each other because we always tried to do it the way we wanted it done for ourselves. So that was always, you know, I mean, it's just those weird, interesting mismatches that you have in relationships and trying to identify them and not just like, we both knew it, but we couldn't help ourselves. I mean, it was almost so ingrained in

You know, anyway, so it was always an interesting, it was always interesting when one of us was not well or feeling sick or something like that, because yeah, I had to like completely like, okay, she doesn't want the attention, she doesn't want anything, when all I want is the attention and the coddling and all that stuff. So it was weird.

Derek (14:26.21)
That was difficult for you to hold that back.

Anne (14:31.132)
It was, and I've been sick. This is the first time I've been sick all by myself. And that has been incredibly, incredibly challenging. And it's actually been very emotionally devastating in some ways. Because as you can see by the furry little activity in the background, like I said, I have dogs. When my wife passed, we had 10. And then her favorite, her heart dog passed about two months ago. He was ready. So.

Caring for nine dogs and being sick has just been brutal on my side. Just too much. Too much.

Derek (15:12.942)
Imagine both the physical and the emotional part.

Anne (15:15.632)
and having to go through the cold and the cold. Yes, absolutely. It has been, it's a challenge and they all have different needs and they're all, you know, we always joked it was the island of misfit toys or all the dogs. They all have some kind of medical or physical disability. And so they're not easy to take care of. So I can't just call someone and be like, hey, come take care of them. Cause they're not, they're not normal. So. We're not just putting on.

Derek (15:28.195)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (15:39.402)
Right, we're not just putting a request on Rover.

Anne (15:43.628)
Right, exactly. Plus who in their mind is gonna be like, yeah, I'll take on nine dogs.

Derek (15:50.542)
I mean, yeah, we had lost our, we had an 18 year old cockapoo that we finally had to let go last January. And it was probably, let's see, last year was 20, 2023. So probably between eight, nine years old, both of his eyes had been removed. So when you said, when we got to meet your little white guy,

Anne (15:53.901)
And we just thought, with 18-year-old practices, that we would finally have those like girls, black, gay, and white. And it's funny.

Anne (16:08.28)
Great.

Anne (16:13.316)
of the night.

Derek (16:20.142)
you said he's blind and deaf and just a pain in the neck. I was like, yep. No, is he really? I didn't even recognize that. Yeah, I know. Well, I, mine could have looked like that over the years. I had actually had a friend of mine teach me how to at least, I won't say well, but at least groom him.

Anne (16:26.182)
And he too is a cockapoo, interestingly enough. So yeah, their own challenge. That's cause he was shaved. That's cause he had to be shaved.

Derek (16:47.254)
you know, save a little bit of money every three months. But yep, yeah, they're fun, but they can be a handful. I can't imagine all the little.

Anne (16:47.689)
Yeah.

Anne (16:52.288)
Yep.

Anne (16:58.856)
Yeah, I mean, they definitely are. I mean, it's I hate to say it this way, but there's definitely a burden associated with it. It's one I made by choice. And I can choose to do something differently, but I don't like my choices. I they don't sit well with my heart. You know, I don't need to put them down and I don't need to rehome them mostly because a lot of them are not adoptable. That's why they're here. So, so I'm kind of stuck until nature takes its course.

Derek (17:29.546)
But as you've learned, even over the years, we have our values. Our values breed our goals and our goals hopefully breed behavior. And that's when the behavior doesn't align with the goals, that's why a lot of times we end up seeing a therapist.

Anne (17:33.924)
Mm hmm. Yep.

Anne (17:46.176)
Right, oh yeah, absolutely. And I've been seeing one pretty much consistently since I started medication. That was the big thing, is that I made sure to go see a therapist. I ended up going through four therapists, well, I'm on my fourth after my wife died, because it was important to me to find somebody that was.

that I got along with and could do the work with me. So of course, I have really good insurance. I'm a federal employee. I'm very fortunate. And we have a program called EAP, Employee Assistant Program. And so either the night she passed or the next day, I was on the phone with EAP telling them, get me someone, get me someone now. And so with less than 24 hours, I was on the phone with someone.

Derek (18:33.198)
Fantastic.

Anne (18:38.404)
and talking with them and everything. And as you may or may not know, that is kind of a stopgap. It's not supposed to be long term. The mortuary also had a grievance counselor. And so I went and saw her, which was helpful, but it was definitely it wasn't going to be long term therapy, which was.

Derek (18:46.786)
right.

Derek (19:06.606)
Sure.

Anne (19:07.508)
what I was looking for is long-term therapy. And then I found someone, but she was traveling. And I have an attention problem. I have a little bit of ADHD, I think I haven't been diagnosed. But, and my therapist, I did not realize she was traveling through Europe. And so we ended up doing a lot of therapy sessions like this and half the time it wasn't the cameras weren't on

And so, and I work from home, so all of a sudden, it felt just like being on a work call, which most of my work meetings could have been emails. So I found that it wasn't helpful at all because I wasn't putting into it, I wasn't being held accountable for what I needed to do on my side. And I'm incredibly self-aware, like I know I need help, like so a lot of times I walk into a therapist's office.

Derek (19:38.894)
Hmm.

Anne (20:06.172)
And it's like, let's skip the first step of becoming aware of your problem. I'm there, let's start moving. And so she spent a lot of time congratulating me and concentrating on my self-awareness. And I'm like, nope, let's go past that. So I ended up finding a therapist actually through a really good friend and coworker. And I have been seeing him every week since.

Anne (20:33.964)
Probably for almost six months now. I see him in person and it has been the greatest gift. I could not, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I've missed a couple of sessions through sickness and whatnot or him on vacation, but I wouldn't trade it for the world. He's incredibly understanding. He is open to all parts of my life and my lifestyle and what I'm.

what I want and what I need and he's non-judgmental, which is incredibly critical for me. And so it's, I just consider myself incredibly lucky or blessed or whatever we want to call it, that I connected with somebody. Had I not, I would have kept going. I'm a big fan of you find a therapist that works and if you're not, if you don't have one, you keep looking. I mean, it's critical. I've lived in places and very rural areas where there's only one and you had to make do.

but I'm a, nope, you keep looking for a therapist until you find one that really connects with you and works because otherwise it doesn't work, in my opinion, and my experience.

Derek (21:42.07)
Well, a lot of folks have given that kind of feedback, saying, you know what, if you've got one, you're not committed to them. That's not what a therapist is for. We commit to you, not the other way around. And even when I start seeing a patient or client the first time, I'll say, look, I'm gonna have a lot of questions for you. You may have some for me.

Anne (21:50.732)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (21:56.662)
Right.

Anne (22:07.573)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (22:08.61)
you know, ask away because the goodness of fit, and it's me fitting to you as a client, the goodness of fit is so critical that that's the number one indicator of success.

Anne (22:10.503)
Right.

Anne (22:21.908)
Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. You know, and it's not, you know, he pushes me and he pushes back and I don't always agree with him. And that is, that feels very different than he respects me. I respect him. You know, I mean, there's definitely, it's, for me, it's been a feeling when I connect with somebody for therapy, from a therapist standpoint. Cause it's, I tell everyone, it's the most unique relationship you will ever have in your life.

because friends and family, you can share all these emotions and concerns and everything, but there is the social idea that you have to then listen to all of their problems. And sometimes I don't want to, and sometimes I don't have the bandwidth to. And that's what I love about therapy, as I tell people, it's like, I give you money and you listen to me, it's about me.

I mean, my therapist still shares parts about his life. I mean, there's that, but there is, I don't have to listen to his problems. I don't have to give him advice. And so I tell people all the time, it's the most, it's the best relationship for mental health because it's all about you. And you don't have to share that.

that burden of then listening to them and then feeling like you're a bad friend if you don't or avoiding someone because you just don't have the bandwidth. I mean, it's like I said, I wouldn't be able to function without that relationship in my life. And it allows me to then enjoy relationships, my other relationships, because I find I don't overwhelm or overburden my friends with my problems and...

and being bat shit crazy about trying to get help, I have someone for that. And it allows me also to have the capacity that then listen to their problems and listen to their concerns and everything like that. So it's a relationship that I will have forever when I need it. I mean, it's just so important. Yeah.

Derek (24:39.323)
You sound grateful.

Anne (24:41.681)
Oh, beyond. Grateful is like not a strong enough word. Like we need to make a bigger one.

Derek (24:46.146)
Hahaha!

Derek (24:52.374)
It's Friday. My brain is almost mush today. But we do because what I'm hearing from you and from others is there's such a value and nothing is expected of you other than show up.

Anne (24:56.812)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (25:12.5)
Right, although I do have homework and I'm not always good at doing my homework. We are, I am gonna undergo EMDR, which I can't remember what that stands for. And you can tell me. I have to get well enough, but I, so I, part of the homework is writing down and recounting the memories that have some effect or some hold.

Derek (25:25.25)
Congratulations.

Anne (25:39.556)
And so that has been one that I've definitely drug my feet on or I forget or I don't wanna. I finally just got my crap together and just did it. So there is some homework associated with it, but yeah. So he won't let me just show up because we are doing something active like EMDR where there is an element of doing some homework and everything and self-reflection.

Derek (26:06.19)
Sure. He's actually offering the EMDR. That's fantastic. A lot of times, it's such a specialty that we often work on one issue and then, but for the EMDR, I'm more than happy. There are limited amount of opportunities when we can work with multiple therapists at a time. And that's one of them, but he's a one-stop shop for you.

Anne (26:10.773)
Yes.

Anne (26:31.776)
Yeah, he, it's one of his specialties. One of his specialties is trauma and EMDR. And after what I'd been through, yeah, it made sense. It was a good fit. Not to mention, you know, I just really enjoy him as a human being. He's incredibly respectful of the lifestyle that I've chosen and very supportive. And so, yeah, I mean, it's...

Again, it's just such a gift.

Derek (27:05.134)
So now you mentioned homework. Couple of schools of thought, not every modality of therapy has homework. Freud would never do homework, but long time ago. And even now in modern therapy, we're learning, you know what, we can share a little bit of our personality with our clients. You know, do you have any dogs? Sure.

Anne (27:15.616)
Right.

Anne (27:27.786)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (27:31.382)
you know, that kind of conversation. We're looking for connection with, you know, this tabula rasa, this blank slate of a person. That's, and so it's not just showing up, but we're seeking, some people have some people pleasing approval seeking that they've got to work through. That's a different story.

point yourself. Yep. It's common. It's common, especially based on some of the things that you and I talked about before recording. That's people pleasing often being a part of that traumatic response fight, flight, fawn, or freeze. So fawning is you know making sure everybody else is comfortable because I don't want to stir up the pot any more than what's already stirred up.

Anne (28:02.648)
and then.

Anne (28:14.454)
Yes.

Anne (28:24.344)
Which is really interesting because that actually, there's a couple of things that have been potentially detrimental in the kink community. And I possess two of them, which is I am a huge people pleaser. And growing up, I was the only girl in the neighborhood for the kids of my age. It was all boys. And so I developed a little bit of a Betty badass.

kind of persona when I was younger. So especially in doing, I'm still coming to terms with where I sit in the impact world, in impact play. And so that's been a challenging one. And I'm coming to terms with my relationship with pain. I spent a lot of my childhood sick.

And a lot of my pain outside of the community comes from things that I have to endure and withstand for my health. And so all of that has been really interesting and I have to be incredibly mindful of, you know, am I not saying something because I'm trying to please someone, even though it's getting too extreme.

Anne (29:51.024)
am I doing stuff to prove a point because I'm a badass because I'm supposed to because I'm supposed to endure this or withstand this and so and then like I said trying to figure out where the pleasure element if there is one plays into all of that so that has been and these are the types of conversations I have with my therapist because he's so open and supportive and it's been like I said I just I cannot say how grateful and thankful I am that I have such a therapist.

that is not part of the kink community at all, but knows about it and is understanding of it. And so it's definitely, you know, those childhood.

those formative years that create who we are. And now hopefully EMDR will help me undo some of that or fix. Yeah, a lot of that and how it plays into some of the different play I have in the community has been really weird and really interesting.

Derek (31:00.18)
And these are thoughts and feelings that you're having in the middle of a scene. I mean, I don't imagine that there's a lot of time to say, hold on, let me process this.

Anne (31:12.352)
So I have been very fortunate because I've been very kind of, because I am so insanely open and honest, like I am the TMI girl, that several of the people I play with are aware of my people pleaser and they're aware of my little kind of Betty badass. I don't know how else to say it. They're aware of it so I

Anne (31:42.388)
um they're incredibly empathetic and so they'll check in with me a lot a lot and even say things like you know you don't have to endure this you don't have to prove anything and so they're challenging a lot of a lot of my preconceived notions about how i need to participate in the community i mean i go to a lot of parties where there is a lot of impact and um

Derek (31:49.268)
I love that.

Anne (32:12.76)
And I'm definitely on the low, low side of impact when it comes to what I can handle and whatnot. And so it's been challenging not getting in my head and being like, oh, if she can do this, I should be able to too, or I'm not really doing it if I'm not doing this. That's been really challenging. And so, and in talking with my therapist, these are some of the things that these...

these ideas of competing with people and a lack of self-assurance and people-pleasing. These are some of the things that we're gonna work through in EMDR. But like I said, for whatever reason, I'm super open and honest about a lot of stuff, not just with my therapist, but just in people in general. And so a lot of people are aware of it and everything. And having...

Having some tough conversations with some of my partners, I have one that I thought that was, I thought there was quid pro quo and I thought I had to withstand things. And I had a meltdown during one of our encounters. And he thought it was catharsism. He thought I was actually like shedding some stuff. And no, I was actually doing the exact opposite.

I was actually curling up into a little ball and panicking and going into my little reptile brain. And it wasn't until we were supposed to meet back up again that I'm like, I'm dreading seeing you. And he's like, why? And I just was very open and honest about it. And so we were able to figure out, okay, that's not what we do. You know, he was gonna push, you know, I'm a bottom, no two ways about it. And he was gonna push, cause he could.

And I just didn't know that I knew I could say no, but I didn't know that I could also say back up, like don't stop, but back the truck up about four miles and don't go past there and we're good. And so having those conversations was really important, but it took a while. I mean, it took longer than I probably should have because again, I just thought that was.

Anne (34:32.716)
But that's what we did and that's what I had to do to get the things I wanted. And it's a trade-off and it's a, you know, quid pro quo and yeah, those kinds of things. So it's, like I said, it's been really interesting to say the least.

Derek (34:49.026)
Well, now, in your example, you talk about back the truck up. You know, one of the big things that we talk about with this 2024, we talk about consent. You know, a relationship can go on for years with consent, but the minute somebody says, yeah, no, no more. No, no consent. Not from, you know, hell yeah to hell no. Then, you know.

Anne (34:59.416)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (35:06.84)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (35:15.33)
you're afraid to share that. I mean you're afraid to communicate what this isn't really okay.

Anne (35:21.592)
I just didn't know that was part of the equation. I just didn't know that was an option. I mean, to give an example, I'm incredibly primal. So I'm a big fan of biting and scratching. I just, I am. Just, I love it. It's my thing. He is definitely a sadist and he's incredibly strong. I mean, physically strong and large. And, you know, it would, you know, the biting would start.

the way I liked it, but then because he's so strong and because he's a sadist, he would take it to the next level. And I'm like, please leave the skin attached. I mean, he's not actually trying to remove skin, but so the pleasure went away really quickly and I just was like, okay, I can endure this.

Derek (36:01.314)
Hmm, no.

Anne (36:11.168)
I can endure this. And it wasn't until I came off my psychiatric medication under the oversight of my therapist and my psychiatrist and also one of my primary care doctors. And my emotions kind of broadened a little bit. So my psychiatric medicine kept me from swinging really high and really low in terms of joy and sorrow.

And so I was swinging a little wider and that's when I fell apart. And I just was like, as soon as, yeah, as soon as he was done and let go, I like, blah, and then we talked about it. And so he's like, well, then that's not what we do. And I was like, oh, okay. I mean, it sounds so silly and so stupid, but it's like, it was just that simple. I thought it was what was expected of me being so new to all of this, but nope.

But it took a little while and he was actually really upset because he's like, you should have said something. And I was like, I had no idea that's what it was in the moment. I had zero idea. That's the other thing is I didn't know what it was in the moment. I just know that I just curled into myself is what I often do when something is too much and just started sobbing. And I didn't know what that, I didn't know what it was.

You know, and he was great. I mean, he was great, comforted me, held me all the right things. Everything you're supposed to do. He was on top of it and great. Just didn't realize what was behind it until I had to examine it and really look at it. And what really made me realize it was when he was like, well, let's get back together again. And I had just utter dread. And that's the first time I had ever.

Usually I was really excited to go see him. I really enjoy spending time with him and I love how we play. And I was like, no, total dread. And I was like, what's the dread from? And then I started like trying to look into that. And I can tell you a hundred percent therapy has given me the tools to even be able to do that with myself. I mean, I didn't call my therapist and say, hey, you know, we didn't have a session about it.

Anne (38:30.24)
But therapy definitely has given me the tools to be able to have that self-realization and have that conversation with myself. So I'm able to do some of the work all by myself, which is really nice.

Derek (38:46.442)
and your community is, you said you're open about what you're experiencing, your emotions, your physical health, but also you're finding more of a sense of personal agency of autonomy. Being a people pleaser, that's almost non-existent when we start out. Like, nope, must take care of everybody else. I'll take care of me when I'm dead kind of thing, as opposed to, and then being a bottom.

Anne (39:07.734)
Right.

Anne (39:11.125)
Right.

Anne (39:15.532)
Yeah?

Derek (39:16.914)
you know, new to the scene, new to the lifestyle, you're like, this is what's supposed to happen. And you finally have somebody in your life who says no, it's not.

Anne (39:31.476)
Yeah. Well, and a big part of that was me figuring out that was the no. Cause the other problem I've had with this community, which has just cracked me up is, is the idea of, um, you know, um, potential play partners asking me, well, what do you want to do? And I keep going, well, what's on the menu? Like, give me a menu. Cause I'm a very, I'm a very, um, logical, very kind of, um,

analytical person. And so that has also been my problem is that I haven't I this lifestyle hasn't existed until I got my health. It was just this thing that was sometimes fantasy over there somewhere, but I didn't really have much of a sex drive. I didn't really have interest in discovering, you know, what my pleasure was and all of that. And so it's been entertaining because it's like and it's funny because my therapist will ask me, well, what do you want?

Derek (40:11.054)
Hmm

Anne (40:30.272)
And I'm like, I don't know, give me a menu. Let me see the menu and I'll start choosing items. We can do this tapas style, we can do this a la carte, but what are my options? And so that's also been really challenging. I have a play partner that I do impact with and I think he gets a little annoyed because I put so much pressure on him because I'm like, surprise me.

You know, because I don't know.

Derek (41:00.566)
Right, it's like, do we go to a place, like the examples I can think of are, the places with numbered menus, you go to a fast food joint, you get 10 choices. You go to an Asian food chain, you got like 200 choices.

Anne (41:11.628)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (41:16.245)
Right.

Derek (41:18.766)
Like, I don't know.

Anne (41:21.088)
Right, exactly.

Derek (41:24.746)
So for you the so what do we call it? Decision fatigue.

Anne (41:25.068)
So that has also been.

Anne (41:32.5)
There is definitely a big part of that. There is definitely a big part. And part of, you know, I go to quite a few parties, especially I have a group of friends and they have quite a few house parties, you know, parties at private houses. And so the other problem is that, like I said, is I have a hard time not comparing myself to the other bottoms.

Derek (41:35.284)
Is it?

Anne (41:56.48)
And so a lot of what I see, you know, they have been in this for a while. They have been with their partners for a while. They have a really high threshold for pain. And so when I see, you know, if that's my menu going to these parties, I'm like, oh shit, I don't want anything on the menu. So that's also been tricky.

Derek (42:20.622)
Well, and pain is so subjective and our tissue responds differently based on our immune systems and things like that. So when you're seeing the results of impact on somebody else, you may see less evidence and you're like, well, they can take more and I can't, you know, so there's, we're back to comparing bodies again for a different reason.

Anne (42:36.993)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (42:41.399)
Yeah.

Anne (42:46.593)
Which is so hard for me not to do because I've got insecurities, I've, you know, all kinds of stuff and all of this will be worked through in therapy. I mean, it's just a matter of doing the work and putting in the work and all of that. I mean, it's been absolutely. And when you talk about, you know, it never would have occurred to me that any of, especially the impact play.

It never would have incurred to me until I got sick a couple of weeks ago. My immune system just cratered. But it never would have occurred to me the impact would have anything to do with my immune system at all. And I asked some friends in the community that are nurses that I have developed really great relationships with. And they're like, oh, hell yeah. It can absolutely affect your immune system. And that's something that I have had.

I've had a weakened immune system my whole life. And so I have to be very mindful of what I do and how I do it and everything. And so, and the other thing that's been really challenging being new to the community that my therapist is really kind of getting on me about is going in like a kid in a candy store and just overindulging and overdoing and over everythinging. That has definitely been a challenge.

Derek (44:05.714)
Mmm. We don't, we don't have to ride all the, you know, we don't have to eat everything on the menu. We don't have to, you know, we have a season pass. We don't have to do everything on the first day that the park opens.

Anne (44:18.604)
Right, and that has been almost, that has been really hard, really impossible for me to grasp. And I think part of that has to do with, before my wife passed, she worked seven days a week for a lot of different reasons, but she also worked in an animal shelter, hence the reason we have so many of those. And she always felt like she,

She really did, was one of the people there that really did care about the animal over her own ego and over her own needs, which was really incredible. But so I was lonely. I was lonely before my wife passed away because she worked seven days a week. And as you may know, making friends as an adult is just so impossible sometimes. But then when she passed away, I was lonely and alone. And that is devastating.

I mean, that is so wanting to be out among people, wanting to be with people, wanting to form connections, maybe not just in the community, but with just fellow human beings. And so I found a lot of connections in the community, going to lunches. It's funny, I have a former supervisor and she's my fairy kink mother.

Derek (45:30.21)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (45:41.904)
And she's the one that was like, you will go to munches. You will go meet people. And so that has been some of the best advice she's given me, is going out there and meeting like-minded people. And having stuff outside of the community in common with them has really been good for my emotional health. You know, we're not just only the community and what we do in the community. We also are dog owners, and we also enjoy going out to eat.

Derek (46:06.69)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (46:09.712)
you know, it's Phoenix. It's the time of year where it's the Renaissance Festival. So yeah, so just going and doing fun stuff.

Derek (46:14.122)
All right, yeah.

Derek (46:20.462)
So what kind of fun stuff are you doing outside of the community then?

Anne (46:27.112)
I have a friend that I've known for quite a while and I'm gonna go she does roller derby So I'm gonna go see her Saturday night. I also I Some of the people in the community are gun aficionados They're they're just they're very into recreational shooting and my wife was a gun owner. I was not I'm a city girl. So it kind of freaked me out. But I have a gun. I have a gun in my house

Derek (46:34.25)
That's fun.

Anne (46:53.96)
And so one of the things I promised myself is that I would either learn how to use it safely or I would get rid of it. And so going to a big expo this weekend, something else. You know, going to plays. These are things that I did even, these are things I did with my wife and my friends before. So I'm finding a lot of those similar relationships. It just happens to be with people in the community.

Derek (47:22.942)
You mentioned how difficult it is to find friends as an adult. I'm an introvert and I'm sure you read why I'm putting the podcast together. My clinical consultant is like, you need to talk to people. He's 81. He's done the radio thing. I call him, I've got different, I'm going to add Frasier to his list of nicknames, but

Anne (47:39.98)
Hahaha

Anne (47:45.601)
Right.

Derek (47:51.426)
He's like, radio is dead. Talk to people, put together a podcast, kind of get a speaking style because people want to hear your voice before they even can consider what kind of therapist you might be. And finding a good fit and putting yourself out there, but even socially, this pandemic didn't even help out introverts.

Anne (47:54.108)
Right.

Derek (48:18.766)
For about a month we were like, yes. And then after that, it's like, no.

Anne (48:19.006)
Right. No.

Anne (48:24.016)
Exactly. It was hard on all of us. Yeah, no.

Derek (48:25.742)
So it was. So but getting out there as an adult, you know, where, you know, you said you and your wife, you've got the small animal shelter behind you, right? It happens a lot. But finding friends, it's like, where do you meet people?

Anne (48:46.264)
Right?

Anne (48:57.08)
Well, and that's I work from home. So the office isn't an option. And yep. And a lot of people already have their fully formed lives. So, you know, the first month after my wife passed away, I really gravitated toward the friends that I had that happened to be coworkers. And I overwhelmed them. I mean, there's no two ways. There's no two ways about saying that. I overwhelmed them because I needed.

Derek (49:00.17)
Right, same here.

Anne (49:24.996)
I had a lot of needs, a lot of just human connection needs. And one of my good friends, she's got two kids, the oldest is four. Another one of my good friends, he is in a relationship. And so, and the person lives about an hour and a half away. So that was the challenge was, okay, well, my small friend network, I was overwhelming them.

I mean, I was bat shit crazy overwhelming them. And so I ended up, you know, when I first got into the community, I did a lot of stuff stupid. You know, one of the things I did is I joined FetLife, which is of course the social media site, which is great. But I thought I had to say hi back to everyone that messaged me. And I had a lot of guys that wound me up.

and then would disappear, which confuses me. And so early on it was brutal for me in the community because I just didn't know how to function. I hadn't dated in over 22 years. FetLife is basically, part of it is a dating app. And so yeah, it was just.

Yeah, I lost myself a little bit initially. And that's also when my mental health wasn't the greatest. I was still looking for a good therapist and then I found him and trying to develop a relationship so that we could start actually functioning as a team for my mental health and everything. That was a lot. I mean, that was, I survived my first month and a half in the fetish world. I survived.

Derek (51:17.479)
It sounds really overwhelming and from what I'm told there's like no rules Except you say yes, and you say no and then you have the freedom to do both of those things Although to your point earlier, you don't always feel the freedom to say no

Anne (51:19.617)
Oh, it was.

Anne (51:24.389)
Nope.

Anne (51:27.89)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (51:37.664)
Well, and that's the people pleaser in me. I mean, there was a gentleman that I did not have a relationship with. We had just talked on FET. He was an older gentleman, poor health and everything. And he kind of made hinting in one of our communications back and forth, he hinted that he was not in a good place and that he might hurt himself. And...

I sternly told him, you know, if you're gonna go down that road, I'm out. We are not talking. And he was fine, he was fine. And then a month later, I got a message from his son that he was in the emergency room because he OD'd, because he tried to kill himself, because I rejected him. And what I had basically sent a message to him is,

That's not who we are. He was proposing more intimate stuff. And I said, that's not who we are. That's not what I want. And next thing I know, I get the son messaging me saying, gee, thanks for killing my dad. He ended up being fine, but I blocked him. I said, we're not playing this game. I'm not, no, you are. As people please her as I am, I'm like, nope, you crossed the line and we're done.

Derek (52:53.479)
Ah, no.

Anne (53:04.048)
So it's been a challenge to get my voice and to maintain my voice, especially in the just craziness. I actually haven't been on FetLife in a while to the point where I'm not even paying attention to some of the calendar of events and everything. So yeah, it's... And I still haven't found what I'm looking for in terms of a play partner or even a primary person to spend time with. I still haven't found that. So that's also been challenging, as I've got some...

I've got a couple of play partners that I enjoy spending time with, but I don't have what I would consider a primary. One that's mine, that we're committed to, you know, we're each other's primary. I'm like secondary and tertiary with a lot of my play partners, which is fine. You know, I'm really enjoying the non-monogamy so far. I'm actually really enjoying it. It works out well.

because I'm realizing not one person can provide everything I want or need, at least not now, because I don't even, I still need the menu. And so, but I would like to have somebody that is a primary, that is, I'm their primary focus and they're my primary focus with a lot of other things on the side. And so I'm still looking for that. And so that's been a challenge. There's definitely a hole there for me when it comes to that.

Derek (54:33.11)
It seems to me like, you know, in the world of monogamy, you say you're my person. Well, in Nama, you know, you're my majority, maybe. You know, you're your go-to. You're... Yeah. Mm-hmm. You still want to go to. And you want to be somebody's go-to.

Anne (54:39.281)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (54:43.244)
Right, exactly. That's why I keep using the word primary, not secondary or tertiary.

Anne (54:52.812)
I do.

Anne (54:56.156)
I do and for dumb stuff, like let's go see a movie and maybe be naughty during the movie. It doesn't always have to be a scene at a party. I have a couple of people that that's what that's for, a scene at a party or an incredibly, incredibly intimate evening trying a bunch of stuff, that kind of stuff. But yeah, I'd like to have somebody that I can, yeah, go.

Go to a movie and we can be a little naughty in public. You know, so.

Derek (55:31.582)
and somebody that you can feel safe enough with, you know, some of that exploration. Cause we don't just explore things with anybody. I mean, that's dangerous. But having your person, hey, I'm thinking about this new thing, I wanna try out, purchase, whatever. What do you think? And we do the...

Anne (55:38.945)
Yes.

Yes.

Anne (55:52.053)
Right.

Derek (55:55.586)
Was it the yes, no, maybe stuff? You know, yeah, I'm willing to do that or, oh, heck no. I have no interest. I'm uncomfortable with it. You know, makes my skin crawl kind of stuff. But going back to that man's son, he tried to guilt trip you.

Anne (56:04.117)
Right.

Anne (56:16.076)
I know, I know.

Derek (56:17.538)
Which I mean age old, you know, quid pro quo, workplace kinda crap.

Anne (56:24.256)
Yep. And thankfully again, because I prioritize my mental health, you know, I mean, I was on the phone with one of my friends from the community, actually one of my play partners and his girlfriend of seven years. I was on the phone with both of them because I also consider them good friends. And I was on the phone bawling because I was so, it upset me so much. And they're, they are not people pleasers. They're the exact opposite of a people pleaser.

Derek (56:25.946)
No, we don't have to play.

Anne (56:54.828)
And they were both, they were both basically like, fuck him, if he dies, he dies. That's on him, that's not on you. You have nothing to do with this. You had no responsibility. And so, yeah, it was very nice to have them and to talk to them about all of that. But yeah, I mean, it was just, thankfully, having done the work for so many years in my mental health and being willing to be medicated when I needed it was, that has definitely seen me through.

my introduction and growth in the community. I mean, I can't even fathom coming into this community without having some kind of, at least me personally, without having some kind of mental safety net. And that's what I consider, not just my therapy, but just having the training, the self-awareness, and all of that. It has been so critical, and it's probably saved me a lot of heartache and probably some stupid stuff that could have gotten me hurt.

Derek (57:56.274)
you don't know what you don't know and that's why we find people who do already do know are safe people

Anne (58:00.95)
Yeah.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Derek (58:09.494)
and I really do appreciate your time. I've enjoyed all of these calls that I've been doing. It's just I'm enjoying meeting new people. I really appreciate your time, the time of your nine little furry friends over there. I'm only mentioning the number because you've already disclosed.

Anne (58:21.128)
Oh, of course.

Anne (58:28.976)
Right. This is Bowie. She's one-eyed.

Derek (58:33.224)
Bowie.

Derek (58:37.452)
Yeah, she's winking at me.

Anne (58:39.12)
Right, exactly. No, like I said, I have always been the one that's been really open about mental health and my struggles and my journey. And a lot of it has to do with, it's a great way to... I had a friend and he was struggling and he is of Hispanic, Mexican descent, very machismo and everything. And I learned a long time ago, I never tell people, you should go to therapy.

Derek (58:41.627)
Um.

Derek (58:56.896)
Yeah.

Anne (59:07.452)
I always say, this is why I go to therapy. This is why it benefits me. These are the things that I get out of therapy. And I have found that by saying that, it allows people to think about it. And it's kind of that like crazy zealous, sometimes crazy over the top religion, where it's like share the gospel, preach.

convert people. I kind of feel that way about mental health, but I try and do it in a very tactful, almost passive way and just be like, this is what it does for me.

might be something you might want to consider because I think you could get something from it. But this is what it does for me. This is how I got into it. This is what I benefit. These are the limitations. It's this unique relationship where you hand somebody money and you don't have to listen to their problems. It's the only relationship like it out there. And so that has, yeah. So when I saw your request, I'm like, sure, I'm down.

Derek (01:00:19.083)
No, I appreciate it. You know, when you talk about, you know, instead of telling people you should go to therapy, a few things. One, I've got a dear friend of mine who says don't show it on yourself and don't show it all over other people. And then...

Anne (01:00:26.483)
Mm-hmm.

Anne (01:00:33.173)
Right.

Derek (01:00:36.502)
you know, working in the recovery community, I've been working, you know, with, with various forms of addictions, um, in recovery community as a professional in the last 10 years, you know, we keep it on the eye. We talk about our own experiences and maybe somebody will accept that as an invitation to say, tell me more.

And hopefully, I mean, it's from the sounds of what you shared and why you decided to accept my request, my offer to do this. You want, I mean, this is a little bit of we're telling somebody more.

Anne (01:01:13.788)
Right. Well, and this friend that I had, sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say this friend that I had, he actually went to therapy. He, he, he part of his problem is he is facing a serious court sentence or a court time and a, and a jail sentence for a drug addiction. And he actually went to therapy and is going both for.

Derek (01:01:15.582)
and maybe they'll find what they need. Oh, go ahead. Absolutely.

Anne (01:01:41.452)
drug addiction therapy and then just a therapist to deal with mental health. And he, last time I talked to him, he still wasn't 100% sure. He still was trying to decide if it was his thing. But I'm like, honey, you went, you showed up, yay. You know, and part of what he did is he took the initiative to put himself on randomized drug testing. He signed himself up for the program.

Derek (01:01:46.806)
to health.

Derek (01:01:56.163)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Anne (01:02:09.876)
And so he sees a drug addiction counselor. And then, like I said, he sees a therapist in addition. So he's for somebody that was like, oh, hell no. He was seeing a therapist, one of his therapists about three times a week. So and again, it's I don't want to take any credit for that, but I am hoping that by me saying, have you thought about this really unique relationship where you hand somebody money?

Derek (01:02:26.506)
Okay, wow.

Anne (01:02:39.92)
and they listen to you.

Derek (01:02:44.194)
Yeah.

Anne (01:02:47.25)
I mean it definitely speaks to the only child in me. I am such an only child. And I'm like, oh wait, it's all about me? Okay, I'll go.

Derek (01:02:47.542)
Yes.

Derek (01:02:55.746)
Yep. Let me bring my credit card, right? But I mean, even when he went, he'd never been to therapy. You celebrated that. I do that with this your first time you picked up the phone or now you hit up my website, whatever it is. Welcome to the world of. I'm one. I think I want to change. We're not sure. Welcome to the world of I think I want to change. Help me to understand more of what it feels like.

Anne (01:03:05.068)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah.

Anne (01:03:18.06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Anne (01:03:24.536)
Absolutely. I mean, I've got another friend. I actually need to find out if I recommended him to my therapist and I need to find out if they were able to connect. But yeah, I mean, it's there. There is no reason to struggle all by yourself. I mean, there's just we are social creatures. There's no reason to struggle all by yourself. And it's not healthy to overwhelm your friends with all of your problems.

or to let them overwhelm you with all of their problems. That's why I said it's just in the suite of relationships that we have, in the suite of relationships that I am looking for, it is definitely one of the pieces. I mean, absolutely. So like I said, I have some play partners for this, I have some play partners for this, I have really good friends outside of the community for this. And then over here is, I have a therapist. Yes, definitely.

So it will always be just part of that equation, part of the just the pieces that allow me to function and function decently. I mean, you know, I can, oh wait, where'd they all go? Oh, they all laid down. That allows me to function and take care of a house full of idiots and myself and go to work and do a job and pay mortgage and blah, blah.

Derek (01:04:32.642)
They're all hiding.

Anne (01:04:43.608)
I mean, it's just all of those things, especially in light of losing my wife of almost 22 years. I mean, if I didn't have that, if I hadn't had that, and I didn't know to reach out to it immediately.

Derek (01:04:44.049)
vet bills.

Anne (01:05:01.02)
Yeah, I would not be the functioning human being you see in front of you. Mostly functioning human being in front of you. Yeah, I just, it's been a journey. It's been a journey of 25, almost 30 years of my mental health journey. And it's not gonna, it's gonna go on until the day I take my last breath. I know that.

Derek (01:05:10.765)
That's fantastic.

Derek (01:05:25.914)
and it's been a delight. It really has. Thank you so much. You've really opened up a door, a window. There's a breeze coming through the house, which is probably important in Phoenix once in a while. But thank you so much for your time. It means a lot to me. We will be in touch. Thank you. We'll be in touch. I'll let you know when the episode's gonna air, stuff like air, because it's not really air dropping, I guess. Still new to this,

Anne (01:05:29.143)
I've enjoyed myself. Right.

Anne (01:05:44.856)
Of course, you are most welcome.

Derek (01:05:55.728)
We will talk soon and you have a great day. You're welcome, bye bye.

Anne (01:05:59.228)
You too. Thank you so much. Bye.