Debs: Conclusion. Trauma, Understanding, and Healing

This episode concludes our time with Debs, the Kink Shrink, and a varied discussion on intergenerational trauma (and healing!), the way some psychotherapy might gain for the client but challenge a relationship, the importance of seeking similarities within community for social healing and change as opposed to the damage caused by focusing on differences.  We also explore the ways in which language and nuance is important for clarity in vision within even microsocieties as we learn to share our own experiences for connection.  

Transcript

Please note: this is the 2nd of a 2 part episode, so the times will be reflective of the entire episode combined.  

Debs (42:49.59)
That's a crazy statistic born with. And there was a huge government movement at that time where therapy was put in place for these kids and all these different things that had happened. I mean, you know, there's been a change or so since then, and that's disappeared, but there was a lot of work with these children who were already in a system that said the world is not safe. So that genome.

Derek (42:51.502)
born with.

Debs (43:16.058)
by, so proteins wrap around when we have that experience, wrap around our DNA, kind of, it's a lot more complex than that, of course it is. But it sends a message down about how we read, whether that bit's scribbled out or tippexed or whether we're going to spend special time or attention on this aspect. It's phenomenal how much, if you think of all the stress we're under, parents are under stress, kids are under stress.

grandparents are under stress, fuck, there's so much and we've all gotta work full time, we've all gotta sort so much of life out, we're all looking for release and relief and getting away but that stress is horrific and then compound that with stuff from grandma and compound that with the shit you're gonna send to your grandchild, fuck, let's try and get this stuff sorted out, let's try and release some of that, work differently, have some understanding of ourselves, not.

put ourselves in unsafe situations, not look to repeat, and maybe to heal, to be with somebody else who can help us on that journey. I really believe in that.

Derek (44:23.618)
So now between my personal needs versus my transgenerational needs, where do you go first as a psychotherapist?

Debs (44:34.418)
I think it depends on what the person brings, first of all. So sometimes you are just in a point of, this person just needs help to survive right now, let alone anything else. You're talking about addiction. If you've got someone with really serious alcohol addiction and they're drinking 30 units a day, take them off the alcohol that fast would probably give them a heart attack and kill them. Once you're over 20 units a day, 21 units, you can't do that.

So it's all about slowly looking at the relationship with alcohol and trying to reduce. I had somebody in my therapy room 14 years ago when I moved in here, gosh, so serious, like couldn't walk properly, lost a lot of weight. We spent months just looking at alcohol and reduction and the relationship on quite a superficial level. And when he was down to not drinking, and I come very much for the set and setting, mindset setting impact more than the 12 step.

although there might be reparation and other things within that certain setting. He then said, I've stopped drinking, this is amazing, I feel fitter, I feel better, can't wait to leave. And I went, oh no, now the work begins. Now we start, now we're safe, now we start. Or safe, ugh. You know, if I've got an 11 year old playing with how much paracetamol she can take, or the levels of self harm or different things,

Derek (45:46.867)
we start.

Debs (46:02.566)
I'm gonna start there. And then we can work with the stuff and have a look at the stories we've learned about ourselves, how we interpret things, what they mean. Even around kink, you know, if we identify so strongly with kink and it's such a fundamental part of us, there's much more movement in the research of are we born this way rather than it's influence or a hobby, but there are some researches that says, well, it is a hobby. I think you have to make your own mind up on that one. I...

Derek (46:25.798)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (46:31.846)
I don't want a relationship without it. It's very fundamental to me, even with my growth through a therapy journey. I get interviewed by the odd top sometimes who will say, you're not gonna change them, are you? Because, you know, I don't wanna lose them as my submissive. And it's like, I can't promise anything, I don't know. But, you know, if you care about this person, it's not for you to interfere in this process. This isn't about control, it's about letting them go to come back. And maybe some things will be amended or the way we do things or...

The level of risk will take maybe. That will be changed, but again, I think too many people are looking for why. It was my grandmother's fault. She's the one that started it and murdered five husbands. She never murdered them. I'm just saying, it's just, you know, very natural and awful circumstances, but.

Derek (47:18.028)
Right.

Debs (47:22.642)
We're looking for someone to blame often. We're looking for, on a Thursday, I was dropped on my head at three o'clock and that's what caused everything because that's much easier to go with than, fuck, it's a series of unfortunate events. It's a collision of multiple things that might be epigenetic and it might be transgenerational. It's also my approach, how I feel about these things and how I handle them and then how my family taught me to handle them.

Derek (47:36.582)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (47:50.51)
because this is the right way, because you know, Jesus, human beings are the, some of the weakest creatures on the planet, aren't we? We depend on our parents to survive, so whatever they say is often fine for a long time. I was shocked actually. The other day I was watching something about estranged families, and there's a guy called Matthias on Instagram, and he does a lot of work around this, and he gave a shocking statistic, and that is that-

25% of people in the United States are estranged from their families. Children to parents or parents to children. 25%! Fuck! Yeah, where's that community gone? Where is our support? What's happening? Are our expectations too high, too low? So I think we have to start with safety, we have to start with who we've got, what can we do?

Derek (48:25.654)
Yeah, I believe that.

Debs (48:44.426)
And then when someone maybe is in a slightly more regulated place, because dysregulation takes a very different approach compared to someone who's more regulated, even in its immediacy, I work with a lot of kids in cheer who are in the middle of having a panic attack. And that's a quick ice dunk, or that's a sour sweet, or that's a shocking thing for me to say, whether it's a swear word, or stand the fuck up, or right now I've got your attention, now let's get you breathing, let's change things. It's that...

Derek (48:53.422)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (49:12.966)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (49:14.294)
It's often a shock to, because the stuff we use when we're regulated, like I'm going to go for a walk in nature, when you're dysregulated, you're not gonna make that choice, you can't. You need a different system. It's absolutely impossible. So it's all about that balance, isn't it?

Derek (49:24.152)
No, it's impossible.

Derek (49:32.63)
So going back to that statistic of approximately 25% of Americans, well, how many of those are because families aren't supportive of lifestyle or other factors regarding sexuality or gender identity?

Debs (49:53.306)
He didn't break it down, so I cannot give you a... I will never give an answer if I don't know the facts or the research, I can't. Yeah, so that's really important to me. So I would have to look that up to make sure. And we know that, so I come from an age and an era. So in the 80s, when in the UK, pride marches were happening, we were all starting to stand up for our rights. You were either...

Derek (49:56.013)
Right.

Derek (50:00.491)
Same here.

Debs (50:17.826)
gay or bi, you know, and if you were bi, you just couldn't make your mind up and you had to choose, fucking hell, or straight. There are now so many options, and that is because we fought for those rights. We fought to become recognized, but that also meant estrangement from family. It meant pride marches were not about, I say this all the time, they weren't about glitter and drugs.

they were frightening fucking things to be on. You were worried about your wellness if you were shown on the news. And I'll often say to people, I say, so I've got two daughters who are not straight. Much I've got one daughter who is straight. Actually I've got quite a rainbow family. And all their identities are fairly different. And that's hard on their dad's side because their dad was a reverend in a church. And I remember my elder saying to him, oh grandpa, you should listen to

you know, Will Young, he's a great singer, he just won something, I think you'd really like him. And his total approach was, I'm not listening to that gay man, I'm not doing that, it's against God. But I've always countered that with them about acceptance, about being okay. And it's easier to be accepted when you have the rights to do so, that's changed things. Kinky people don't have those same rights yet at all. It's still very illegal in most states, in most countries.

there are still hundreds of countries as well that still, you know, being gay, queer is also illegal. In fact, we have a very small island off the UK, the Isle of Man, and buggery was still illegal till into my, after I was born. I was born in the mid-60s, it was still illegal. So I think legality helps, I think our rights help, I think that makes a difference. However, it's not about the big culture, it's about your culture, it's about...

your family, you were talking about diversity earlier. So many cultures would just say, absolutely not. Not gonna happen. I was outed to the newspapers recently, which also helped me write to my last writing, I've been out forever. Once you're out, you're never out, you are constantly outed. This was a particular vitriolic outing in that it was to do with the business locally, it was a soft play, it was a littles event.

Derek (52:21.754)
Hmm.

Debs (52:41.77)
And when it went out into the sort of very uneducated newspaper that has a certain reach, the response was fucking paedophiles, burn them all. That place is now full of bodily fluids. It was a fetish and kink party. They're all perverts. The vitriol was horrific to go through. Horrific. And it was so interesting because these people want these people burnt.

that these people who just want the freedom to do these things without hurting anybody, actually my reality was how kind and loving, and actually a strong sense of neurodiversity as well, and freedom and beauty and wanting to help and care, they wanted these people just to be educated that they weren't dangerous. God, that's a different level of justice. And again, that's about culture, isn't it? Them, their people.

Derek (53:15.167)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (53:31.078)
Sure.

Debs (53:38.722)
Like we go into that, don't we? But if you think that over 50% of people on average in the UK have some form of kink, have some form of interest, I'm sorry, but we go back to that, I think you doth protest too much. You like something, why is it okay for you to like it, but it's not okay for the other person? And I was at a christening actually, and one of the young dads came up to me and said,

Derek (53:40.032)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (53:54.658)
Right.

Debs (54:07.494)
Oh, hi Deb, you know, it was for, it's related to my daughter's business because she has a soft play business, perfect environment for this. And he said, I need to talk to you about all those weirdos. And I was like, right, okay. I'm not gonna fight publicly, I'm not gonna have, I've done a lot of fighting publicly and politically. I'm much more into having a really good conversation with one person at a time and not being the one that they allow to be okay. So yeah, but not you, you're okay. I fucking hate that.

Derek (54:30.871)
Absolutely.

Derek (54:36.038)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (54:37.118)
No, lots of us are, okay. Lots of us are really great human beings and we're not a danger to your children. And this was an ironic situation. He came in with his wife who I know very well. I need to talk to you about these weirdos. And I said, sure, sit down. He said, oh, I need to get some lunch, but their baby who is eight months old is really tired and she doesn't really sleep on anyone. I said, oh, give her to me, let's see. I stood up, took the baby.

Derek (54:41.411)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (55:06.35)
And he said, oh, she won't sleep. She, you know, and I went, I think you're predicting something you don't know him. Boom, she falls asleep on my shoulder. I'm calm, I'm regulated. It's all about that feeling, isn't it? I'm not stressing even about this conversation. She falls fast asleep. It's like, oh, well, I said, you and your wife go and get some lunch. The table's right there. I'm right here. I'm gonna sit down. Oh, you can't sit down. She won't stay asleep. Okay.

Derek (55:09.921)
I'm going to go to bed.

Derek (55:18.318)
Sure.

Debs (55:33.974)
They're quite nervous parents, first child, they are. I can feel my anxiety all the time. And I sat down, she stays asleep for an hour and a half. And I'm having this conversation about us weirdos at the same time and really spoke about it, talked about how lovely these humans were compared to even some of the parents at SoftPlay who have broken rules, brought alcohol in, swear at their kids.

Derek (55:36.838)
Sure. We both remember that, don't we?

Debs (56:01.13)
and all sorts of stuff, you know, which is actually a very real experience compared to us weirdos and perverts who are all clearly paedophiles. And in the end, he totally saw where I was coming from, but my closing comment to him was, it's interesting that you've also witnessed and trusted one of those weirdos with your baby to fall asleep, where you told me she wouldn't, and she's been great and fine. I said, that's even interesting in itself, isn't it?

And he really had to think about that because he definitely wanted to go into that hole, yeah, but not you. No, I'm like them. I am one, that's who I am. It's not an identity, it's very fundamental to me. That submission, what I get from it, what it means to me, the great form of play and intimacy that I love creating, which can be way more in depth after really good negotiations and really good consent and.

connection that you have with another human being and what it means. I love it. It's fundamental in me.

Derek (57:07.079)
Hmm. And you offered that infant not safety, but the, at least the feeling is, I mean, we know it's genuine, but the perception of the baby was, I'm safe. Even if dad said you're one of the weirdos.

Debs (57:19.351)
Yeah.

Debs (57:22.666)
Yeah, and it was a good proving point, wasn't it? I did think she'd fall asleep on me. I did think she would be okay, and that isn't ego. It's just aware of my own regulation. I'm pretty calm. Look, fuck me, do I have my moments? Of course I do, Jesus, don't we all? I've definitely shouted at the wrong time, done things wrong, and I still do, but I do think there's no such thing as cure. I'm very much into the principle of

Derek (57:33.539)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (57:50.838)
the three-sided paddling pool with a big strap here that we wear as a harness and a huge bungee cord and we run, run and boom, we're back. I think here is, we're always gonna boom back but it's how quickly we stay there. Oh, hello old friend, I'm doing this again. Maybe I'm not being particularly healthy in my communication and relationships. Maybe I'm, maybe my mind's going somewhere. Maybe this is old stuff, maybe this is familiar.

Derek (57:58.585)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (58:18.794)
It's that recognition and choosing not to stay there. Maybe how quickly I see it, you know, days can be an improvement for people, weeks can be an improvement for people, but God, if it gets to moments, that's magic. I'm here again. And of course you can't do it with everything, PTSD, CPTSD, anorexia, actually even change the brain structure. So that takes a lot longer to work on than.

somebody having some anxiety potentially or doing something in a different way. But then neurodiversity comes into that as well, looking at this young girl I've just spoken to, if she is neurodiverse, dad really could be, she could be, who knows yet. That's interesting because her adrenaline that she gets from the self-harm is also impacted by

issue is neurodiverse, so you need to take a slightly different approach and attack then. So it's all suck it and see isn't it really. But I don't know if we find a way of accepting ourselves and being okay and with our kink and who we are, I think we can have fucking amazing conversations with people and show these people that we're not a danger, that we're not trying to change the world, that we have consent even if the law dictates that we can't have consent.

Derek (59:20.976)
Mm.

Debs (59:45.098)
We do, and actually a lot of people even in the UK will really be listened to around consent more and more and more so and there are moves, especially in America with the NCFS and over here as well, where people are really fighting for that to be recognised. It's really important.

Derek (59:46.022)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (01:00:02.787)
You mentioned the NCFS. Yep. Well, no, that's NCSF, right? I was just thinking, I was just thinking, wait a minute, I've already spoken with Susan. And we actually discussed the same similar things, you know, when it came to particularly, you know, BDSM and Kink and, you know.

Debs (01:00:04.878)
NCFS got it around the wrong way didn't it? Yeah sorry yeah I did. National Paralympic Games.

Debs (01:00:16.202)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Derek (01:00:27.418)
Somebody's getting beaten up next door. Better call the cops. Oh no, we're in a scene.

Debs (01:00:34.214)
Or even, you know, like, I think you, it's interesting. You said, you know, that bit of writing that was about you and I don't know what you're talking about. And then you sent me, I was like, oh, I didn't know I'd been written about that person. It doesn't matter. I just never seen that bit of writing before because that person had come to a consent workshop. And one of the principles I'd written about there is one of the stories I told about an ex-client who had agreed to a very heavy first scene. I do think, take your time. I do think, build up. I do think...

Derek (01:00:50.466)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (01:01:04.886)
work a little bit with trust because actually that person could potentially have you incarcerated. Like, be cautious. This submissive had contacted him, male dominant, female submissive, um, please beat me so badly that please cane me so I want to bleed. I want to feel the blood running down my ass cheeks while you're fucking me. Blood all over the bed. Have a great time. It's all been consented to.

He wakes up in the morning alone and he didn't realize this person had left and he's like, Jesus, this is like a crime scene. And the next thing he knows, the police are knocking on the door. And she had reported that he'd gone too far, that he was brutal, that they hadn't consented to that. Now he had kept everything. Now that can be incriminating and or maybe like, who knows? That's a dangerous game to play.

And he sat very sensibly and said, no, this had been agreed to, these are all the texts that prove it. And he was with two police officers who said, we can see that, okay, we'll have a word with this person, try and work out what went wrong for them. And they were terribly sensible about it and didn't just go with a letter of the law. And that's kind of what we need, people who will understand.

Derek (01:02:21.31)
We need more nuance. We need more clarity.

Debs (01:02:22.878)
We do. And understanding. And also the severity of even understanding consent. That person, the workshop that the person came to, I was, I'd done a workshop on clear on consent in King's week. It's a joke because it's a cock workshop. But I was also saying something again, really controversial with the actually consent on some levels just doesn't even exist. It's not there. You can only possibly consent to a certain level of

We can't guess or know what this is going to mean to us. We don't know the outcome. We can hope for something, but expectations are one of the biggest problems that we have when we're disappointed or the impact that it has on us, or we don't know the outcome. I didn't know my bursas were gonna split. You don't know that many, many years ago, domestic violence was just about physical violence or sexual violence. It's now about emotional violence. So...

If we keep like being called a piece of shit and we love extreme humiliation, do we genuinely know yet the impact of that? There'll be no fMRI type scans of the brain to check. We don't know for sure yet. And I'm really curious about that. How much do we have to balance that with some positivity, love, care, affection, not toxic positivity, not, yo, you're okay, ready, let's go. That's just shit, isn't it? That sort of stuff doesn't work.

Derek (01:03:34.37)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (01:03:49.26)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (01:03:50.102)
Hey, I'm here for you, what do you need from me? Not giving the mental load. Maybe we agree some aftercare, we have some affection that is contrary to what's just happened. Does that heal or repair? We don't know, but also we don't ever really know what we're consenting to fully. I'm not talking about intentionally going against consent. I'm not talking about breaking consent. I'm not talking about even a cluster fuck scene where something goes wrong. I'm genuinely talking about.

How well do I know myself? How well do I know how this will impact me or you? How do I know what that chemistry, what that situation will bring and change? And do I genuinely know the long-term implications of what I'm about to do? And most of the time, most people can't answer that question.

Derek (01:04:22.406)
Sure.

Derek (01:04:40.742)
To your point, when we consent to something, we're consenting to perhaps somebody else's actions. We're consenting to behaviors.

Debs (01:04:49.59)
We're consenting to a risk, aren't we, of we don't know for sure, but I'm willing to take that risk with you right now. So, you know, please don't turn it on me. Please don't change things. Don't go to the police. I'm a big believer in...

Derek (01:04:52.675)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (01:04:56.582)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (01:05:02.435)
Right.

Debs (01:05:07.154)
I talk to clients quite a lot and to children, how do we own our choices? If I choose to do this rather than get lost somewhere and blame somebody else, how do I own my choices? And I really want to think about that because that has really long-term implications. If I choose to do this, what does that mean? What does that mean to me? How long can I live with this? I had cancer five years ago and I was having chemo and my sisters already had cancer.

when she was in her mid thirties with very, very young children. And then she got it again five years later and was told that she had three months to live and that was 20 years ago. Um, and she helped me through my journey completely. She was amazing. Did my pick line care, knew it, knew my journey and we would speak about it a lot. And she was incredibly supportive. And one of the things I said to her was, I don't know how easy this chemo journey.

Derek (01:05:55.279)
Mm.

Debs (01:06:02.326)
journey is going to be. You're told you might lose your hair. You don't understand when you think even about the consent. You don't know how that's going to feel until you do. It's not like you've shaved your head. You lose all of your hair. The follicles, it's all just gone. It's so different to the shadow of a shave and the choice that you make. However, you did choose to have the chemo, but then it's that or life sometimes. And I had maximum doses of two sets of chemo two weeks apart.

um, eight sessions. Definitely lost my hair. This set of chemo had different implications on my health and as did this, and actually also changed my kink entirely because my lymph nodes are impacted on the right. My breast is impacted on the right. My recovery, how chemo impacts me also then changed my relationship with my own body. So I now have to discover myself or did have to, how do I play? What do I want? What am I actually consenting to?

because I don't know anymore. It was different. And I said to her, no matter what happens, please remind me if ever I'm hysterical that I did choose this. Oh my God. I was in each PENIX so many times. I ended up on wards. I had blood transfusions. I had two lung clots in each lung. Everything that went wrong could go wrong did. And I remember the night before the last one, I phoned her and I said, hi. She went, oh my God, are you okay? We need to go to the hospital because it was a temperature. Let's go straight in.

Derek (01:07:18.926)
Hmm.

Derek (01:07:22.918)
dead.

Debs (01:07:32.398)
Um, no, I just, I'm not going tomorrow. I've had enough. I can't do it. Oh, I was so sobbing and upset. I'm not going. I hate my life. I don't want to end up in hospital again. I can't do this. And, um, you know, I had a good old moan and a good old sob and she let me see it through, which is also really important. And, um, she said, okay, so remember it's your choice. I'm, I'll see you at nine. I went, okay.

Derek (01:07:54.719)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (01:08:02.61)
And the phone went down, you know, it's like, it's true, it can really help sometimes. Like I committed to this, how do I stay with it? And also how do I leave sometimes? But this one, I'm gonna see all the way through.

Derek (01:08:05.833)
Ugh.

Derek (01:08:15.535)
Mm-hmm. Wow, thank you for that. I don't know if you can see, I've actually got a tear in my eye from that one. It was just a little bit. It was end of 2020, my parents had, we were three or four days before my parents' 50th anniversary. I get a phone call, mom would always call me late at night, you know, and...

Debs (01:08:23.556)
I can see the gistening.

Derek (01:08:41.174)
If she answered the phone, it was, let me get your father. But she would always call me late at night. And when mom calls, there's something going on. And she said, I'm done fighting. It came back. They did a scan, her oncologist did a scan back in May of 2020. And my parents are like, we don't understand this. She's got a follow-up. Like...

Debs (01:08:45.826)
Right.

Debs (01:08:49.762)
Hmm.

Derek (01:09:11.214)
like next week. So this is back in November, late November-ish. And I said, you know, send me the documentation. Now, I'm not an oncologist, but I picked up enough.

Debs (01:09:21.335)
Yeah.

Debs (01:09:25.154)
It's amazing what you learn as a therapist though, isn't it? You learn so much about illnesses and weird stuff, medications and the things that impact everybody. And by the time you get all these hours, you're like, oh yeah, that's that. Without the qualifications, clearly.

Derek (01:09:29.547)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (01:09:34.374)
Sure.

Yeah. So, you know, please, please send it. I might be able to pick up like five or 6% of it, but let me see what I can do. And, you know, there were things I think it was lung cancer. My parents were lifelong cigarette smokers. And then apparently when you become a senior citizen, you turn to vaping.

because that's what all the seniors do, or pensioners, I guess, what they do. So, you know, mom's like, I'm done. Whatever, whatever it was, had metastasized, it's going, you know, it's doing its horrible magic. And she said, I'm done. You know, we've talked about chemo, we've talked about radiation. These are the potential timelines.

I don't want to put my body through that anymore.

Debs (01:10:35.79)
I so respect her for that. I've made decisions around that already. Like, if it came back, if I had, if they said it would give you five years, I'll do it. If it's less than, I won't. And I feel you on that. My mom died three years ago in May, and you know, hers was lung and then in her brain, it's, there was no treatment. There was no way. It's altering It's huge, especially if you're close to this human being and you watch them go through that,

Derek (01:10:47.373)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (01:10:52.372)
Oh, sorry.

Debs (01:11:05.822)
just must have been so heartbreaking for you, listening to that choice. Yeah.

Derek (01:11:11.242)
It was hard. It was hard. And our winters here in central New York, we get somewhere around three meters of snow. You do. Okay. So where I live, we get around 10 feet of snow a year, about three, three point one or three point two meters. And I don't know how many times. I think it went down at least every, every weekend, possibly every weekend.

Debs (01:11:19.702)
I have family. I have family here.

Debs (01:11:36.165)
Okay.

Derek (01:11:38.362)
They told her two to three months with no treatment. She made it five weeks, not even five weeks, 33 days. So, you know, when you shared that about your own journey.

Debs (01:11:52.522)
you went on yours as well. Yeah, I really get that. And that's also really like, we're just talking here, it's different, but that's also why it's really important for me. When you've got a dom or a sub, when you've got a therapist, when you've got a trusting relationship, I want that person to not disappear from me into their journey. This is different, we're talking. But when I'm a therapist, I can't leave. Like I have to look at why am I disappearing and I have to be able to bracket that.

Derek (01:11:54.346)
I did, I did.

Debs (01:12:23.518)
I can share feelings, I can share emotions, and I can be aware or at least share. It's different, the same as, right now I need you to take responsibility for me, or let me look after you if we've got that power exchange. We need to be aware of where we are, and we need to be aware of our stuff. There's so much expectation and demands from the world at the moment, and oversharing, because we hope that the world will give us something, and...

It doesn't give a fucking shit. It's not an entity or a being that cares. And people aren't caring as much. They've been through a lot and all that stress. It's that expectation that kills us, I think. And again, just to reiterate for you that here is different, it's that conversation. But I really wanna know that the people I'm with, that I'm trusting with my safety or wellbeing, whether it's psychological or sexual or...

physical have done some kind of awareness or journey. So I can take that risk to be safe in that container that's play or sex or therapy actually, whether the journey is therapeutic, slightly different to therapy.

Derek (01:13:25.527)
Mm-hmm.

Derek (01:13:38.106)
Thank you for going on that trip with me. I really wasn't expecting it today for sure.

Debs (01:13:40.902)
and thank you for sharing. It's funny how these things do come out and they, I don't know, I think it's like neurodivergence. It all comes from the same plant, all different flowers of this beautiful, different brain that brings amazing things and really hard, awful things that do impact our lives. What came first, chicken or egg? I think a lot of people who are

Derek (01:14:00.762)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (01:14:09.698)
different to others. When we're other to others, it's how much do we see ourselves as the other? And that can be about colour and religion, neurodivergence, it can be about sexuality, it can be about being kinky, it can be about gender, it can be about so many things. And the other is always that persecuted aspect and fuck that's hard isn't it? And understanding someone else and getting that is just...

oh, it can be really beautiful as well, that acceptance. And I think a lot of people who have had that same sort of journey are often attracted to each other or gel or there's a magnet and there's a cure in that family really sometimes where we create our own. And that's why I think kink is beautiful as a community. It can be, it's the acceptance and the openness.

Derek (01:15:03.942)
Well, and I think, you know, we obviously need to start probably wrapping it up. But one of the things that I've thoroughly enjoyed our time. But we were talking earlier about, you know, the estrangement. You know, there's more of a tendency to found family nowadays, especially when it comes to different geographies.

Debs (01:15:09.455)
Sorry.

Debs (01:15:13.442)
Okay.

Debs (01:15:20.267)
Mm.

Derek (01:15:30.49)
We have far many more square miles than you do here. We're more likely to, you're right, we're more likely to go to another coast or head to a different temperate zone than, I don't know Europeans and do we move to France? Do we move to Italy? I don't know how often that kind of thing happens. So, but for us, I was talking to somebody else, we commute 45 minutes to work and it's nothing.

Debs (01:15:34.21)
for you.

Derek (01:15:58.438)
You know, I don't cause here's where I work, but it's, we really, we're so spread out. And especially with the power of the internet and technology, you know, being able to have this conversation. Unless, unless I flew down in about a week or two to Florida and you're busy, but I wouldn't be able to.

Debs (01:16:07.359)
Yeah.

Derek (01:16:22.518)
Right? This wouldn't be happening. So found family is so valuable, especially when it comes to our otherness, I think.

Debs (01:16:29.75)
Yeah, and the only thing I think sometimes, which is I suppose a little bit of caution when you turn around that is your otherness doesn't necessarily make other people on your side or okay. Or like if we have experienced some form of trauma or otherness or we're not okay, not necessarily trauma. Just, you know, that feeling of your family don't accept you and you're not okay and what that means and...

Derek (01:16:41.638)
Sure.

Debs (01:16:55.186)
we can throw ourselves in with expectations. And I really do believe that we need to look at expectations where the world owes us or should fix us or I found my family now. We still need some caution around that doesn't mean I'm always okay. Like, you know, we don't talk about, like when we're giving birth, we often just see a pregnancy. We never see anything going wrong. We don't look at fertility. We think it'll just be okay. We see nine months. We never see us as a...

an 80 year old parent with a 60 year old child. We don't see the foreverness and the impact of that. And I think when we have to look at the realism sometimes, a little bit as well, maybe that helps with resilience, I don't know, resilience, realness. Just because somebody is kinky, queer, different, polyamorous doesn't mean that they're a wonderful human being.

the same as it means they might be. It's just about taking your time to find out and not investing too much or hoping for too much because again, that's the bit that hurts us, isn't it? It's our expectations often that hurt us rather than it can be someone doing something to us. Of course it can be. However, nine times out of 10, it's our expectations. I don't think victim mentality should be called victim mentality. I think it should be called

an internalised persecutor, because we expect it, create it, make it happen, sometimes. So it's just about, find your family, just take your time to get to know them and don't expect the world from anyone. Learn to trust yourself, especially on a kink journey, can I handle this, can I handle the outcome? That person might not be there, that relationship might break up, how do I handle poly, what does this mean? It's all about

I often advocate for submissives. I've said this for the last like 20 years. Write your own instruction and user manual from every aspect of yourself. Like the old Hertz manuals where, you know, if I've got a Ford Fiesta or whatever car I've got, it would tell you every aspect of that car. Write your own. Don't share it all with everybody and somebody needs to earn seeing the whole thing. But it really helps you get to know yourself. Like, what are my instructions?

Debs (01:19:14.47)
what model am I? What do I look like? How do you handle me? What does it mean? How do I need my carburettor looking at? What happens if, you know, something breaks in me? How does that work? And it's a great little exercise to do to say, right,

Derek (01:19:23.495)
Mm.

Derek (01:19:30.594)
I love that. I'm assuming you have this written down on a document or something. That one's on there, though.

Debs (01:19:37.346)
I have like 650 writings on Fetlife.

Debs (01:19:45.238)
But yeah, write your own manual, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's write your own, because it's a really, as a dom, you can ask a sub to do that, but I would also recommend you do it as a dom. What's the bloody difference? We're just, we're all on the spectrum of whatever it is that we're on. Surely get to know what you need too, because part of dominance is also giving away a little bit of power sometimes. So like, let me care for you, let me look after you. Like, especially when you're not well or.

Derek (01:19:48.48)
Wow, okay.

Derek (01:20:10.438)
Sure.

Debs (01:20:12.374)
you're not okay, let me step up, let me step into that role. And I need to know how you want that, what that looks like. You're not a fucking demon figure or a vampire. You're a human being with needs as well. So we all need to learn to be able to do that awareness, that process of ourselves. No, I love the whole Hertz Manual. A lot of people have said it for years. I hadn't particularly heard it before then. I'm not saying I invented it. And I really love the idea of basing it on the whole.

Derek (01:20:28.282)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (01:20:41.59)
the full instruction manual of the car. This is how you ride me, this is how you drive. This is when things go wrong. This is what I know about myself and this is what I like and don't like. We're not fucking honest enough about pleasure and sex anyway. Like we're pretty shitted.

Derek (01:20:58.426)
Well, I think it's a, I did, what's that? There, we've talked, I have spent a lot of time talking about the puritanical founding of America over the last few months of podcasting. It comes up just about every episode.

Debs (01:20:59.15)
whole lot of pop-carts. There's a whole lot of pop-carts.

Debs (01:21:16.11)
That's generational if you think about it as well. That's that whole mess that's sent down the generations. And you know, the trauma of that on people who were originally here and that, all of those aspects when we look at the cruelty of that as well, and that's actually, Britain was bloody bad at that invasion. Like everywhere we went, that's what we did. Well, I would argue I've got a Swiss passport. I'm not sure they're much better either, but you know. You know.

Derek (01:21:19.565)
Mm-hmm.

Debs (01:21:44.406)
I'll take which one suits me at the moment maybe. You know, it's about... Yeah.

Derek (01:21:48.346)
Well, Debs, I really do appreciate your time today. It's been such a pleasure. I'm fortunate to have, this is probably gonna end up being two episodes broken up. No, that's fine, that's absolutely fine.

Debs (01:21:51.594)
Thank you too. Thank you.

Debs (01:21:59.594)
Oh, sorry. Sorry. I'm often coming back, like, can we talk about this again? Can we do extra? Because I've always got so much to say. I really do, yeah.

Derek (01:22:08.546)
Well, think about coming back. Really, think about coming back and absolutely. Let's maybe give it a few months and we can go from there. Let you get back from Florida.

Debs (01:22:13.357)
Oh, sure, anything, anytime, definitely. Loved.

Debs (01:22:20.697)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, hopefully as winners, we'll see. Thank you.

Derek (01:22:26.542)
Well, safe travels to you. Safe travels. And thank you again so much. This has been an afternoon well spent for me. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'll catch up with you soon then. Bye bye.

Debs (01:22:36.078)
Oh, thank you. And an evening well spent. I feel the same. I really appreciate you. Thank you. Will do. Bye bye.