Chérie and Anthony: A Family Diagnosis

In this episode, Derek is joined by his VR workout friend, Chérie, and her son Anthony, as they both share their own different experiences with the same diagnosis.  Anthony shares his experience as the oldest of Chérie's children in caring for his siblings during Chérie's early years with her mental health journey.  Chérie accepts Anthony's recollection of experiences and his feelings about his experiences and Anthony shares empathy with his mother in a way that he, as an adult with Bipolar is more cognitively and emotionally familiar with.  They dialogue throughout the episode and even ask each other questions to gain better understanding and offer compassion to each other - and the listeners and I get to experience the love they share for each other.  Check out their podcast at Apple Podcasts or Spotify Podcasts among others.

Transcript

0:01

Hi and welcome back to the Sage In Time podcast. My name is Derek Wittman and I am joined today with, first time we've done this, two guests on screen with me, mother and son podcasting duo, Chérie and Anthony, and they are with Bipolar Bloodlines, if I remember that's the name of the podcast. Chérie and I met each other through a, now I think it's probably over 100,000 member Facebook group. We met each other when there were like maybe five of us or something like that. It goes back, but we've been staying in touch and I really, really love the content that Shuri and Anthony have been putting out there to support their community and each other. It's a lot of fun to listen to. So I've invited them to come here and kind of tell their story. They both have had completely different experiences navigating the medical system in the United States. some of it generational, some of it, well, I'm going to let them tell you their story. So who has to start? I'm not sure who to point to right now. Um, I guess I can start. So, um, my bipolar symptoms started maybe 20 years ago or so. Um, I very temporarily had, uh, health insurance because I just had a baby and I was covered by the state. Um, and during that time I was diagnosed with, you know, like postpartum depression. which was probably accurate, you know, got some meds for that, had a couple therapy sessions, and then once the baby's six weeks old, that's it. I had no more insurance. My symptoms continued to get worse, didn't know why they weren't going away, and just sort of had to battle that on my own without any resources. We didn't have Google. back then so I couldn't Google what was happening to me and you know lots of rage outbursts and really wild and unexplained mood swings and that really had an effect on me and it had a really big effect on my kids and who they ended up becoming as adults. But some time later, many years later, diagnosed again, misdiagnosed again and then probably again. But eventually I got to a bipolar diagnosis. I was in a place where I did have insurance, had a good job, came with insurance, and then got married and shared insurance with my husband and had resources then. Finally ended up with a bipolar diagnosis, got on the right meds eventually, and things are much better for me now. It's a long road now. And I'm glad you're, I mean, I've seen some of your posts, some of your videos in that group have just been phenomenal. Folks, if you have an opportunity to listen, to see the kinds of things, if she does post them publicly, by all means, we are talking creative, very creative. I like the one where you're like spinning, the whole room is spinning as you're getting out of bed. Oh, describing mental health. Yeah, that's something that leadership from that podcast group reached out to me one year and asked me if I would be interested, because I made a lot of posts on mental health and the connection between fitness and mental health. And they reached out to me and asked if I would be willing to do a short video about mental health that they could use. during Mental Health Awareness Month. So that was what resulted from that. But it was really fun to make, you know? It was dizzying. People say that. People say, oh my gosh, this video makes me dizzy. And I tell them, sometimes that's what it feels like to have mental illness. Yeah. So, oh please. along the way is I talked to my kids about mental health. I talked to them about, you know, what was going on with me. You know, statistically speaking, I knew that I have three kids. I knew that probably at least one of them would end up with some sort of mental illness, bipolar or otherwise, you know. So I tried to be... as upfront as I could be with the information that I had when I had it, um, to have that conversation with them so that if it ever happened to them, they'd be at least a little prepared or they'd know that they could come and talk to me about what was going on. So Anthony, you're up. Yeah, Anthony. So, before we get started, you mentioned three kids. Anthony, where do you fall within the line of you and your siblings? Hey, Joyce. You are the oldest. So, I imagine when mom is going through her struggles, a lot of that, a lot of responsibilities fell on you. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I would say like I picked up a lot of slack. Um, especially like right after I think she was like diagnosed even or just after our parents got divorced. Um, there was like a lot of depression in her life at the time and that just made it so that she wasn't really able to do a lot of the things that maybe needed done on a daily basis. And so I was there to get that stuff done. I will read you at the time. How, I think I was about nine when they divorced, eight or nine. Does that sound right to you? Somewhere in there. Yeah, so we're talking on both sides of that event. You know, there was, right before we got divorced, your dad was working a lot and you were doing a lot of stuff at home and a lot of taking care of his siblings. And then right after we got divorced, when we were living in separate houses and I was working like a bunch of jobs and... you know, and other than that, not being able to do much else. And Anthony took care of his siblings and took care of the house and did a lot of things that I had no right to ask of him, but yeah. Well, it needed done. Someone's gotta do it. You know? That's what family's for. Right? Um... Go ahead, D-Darren. way though. Not all families or even family members feel that way. But you did. So, Anthony, thank you. You're explaining how things have to get done. You're taking care of the house. You're taking care of your siblings. Mom's working multiple jobs. Who's taking care of mom when she's having one of those depressive bouts? Well, I think both her and I tend to isolate a lot when we're in those situations. And whether that's like an intrinsic need to be alone or the fact that we know if we're around other people that they're going to either perceive something as wrong or we're going to be taken the wrong way or whatever, or a combination of all those. she really would just kind of go in a room and sleep all day. So I would say nobody was taking care of her, honestly. I'm just trying to get by then, Shari. Yeah, yeah, that's what it was. Now, we've talked your type two, rapid cycling, if I recall. So can you explain to me and to our listeners, I know the two of you already know, what rapid cycling type two bipolar is? So, rapid cycling, bipolar is a mental illness characterized by periods of mania and periods of depression. And rapid cycling means that I experience those fluctuations between mania and depression much more often than the average person who has bipolar. So. It's not just about mood swings. It's the extended mood part of it. That can happen to me quite often. Whereas someone with type one, like Anthony has, his periods of mania and depression last much longer than mine and happen fewer times a year than mine do. And Anthony, can you explain then the difference between your high, your mania versus maybe moms? And we're not comparing the two, but just for educational purposes. Mm-hmm. So usually what I say is I have a longer fuse. I feel that I can feel those mood swings coming because the peak of them takes longer to build up than she does, whereas her bipolar, a lot of times I think is kind of like instant. Mine might take like a full day or two, maybe three to actually reach like a peak of mania for me. And then I might stay there a while, but. it's just a slower integration of that mood swing. Granted, I still have like mood fluctuations throughout the day, don't get me wrong, but and I also think I'm almost always in on one side of the spectrum, either the manic or depressive. That like middle ground is really hard for me to stay on. It's a very fine line. So I kind of fluctuate in between and within. So now, having the training and New York, just for listeners and for the two of you, New York State does not permit me with my scope of practice to treat somebody with bipolar disorder. That's geared towards social workers and psychologists. I'm a licensed mental health counselor. So we deal with a lot more current content, current processes versus, you know, let's bring in the family history of the family of origin stuff. We do both, but we generally focus on the coping skills for here and now. We're geared to be short term. So, you know, I'm familiar with the terms mania versus hypomania. Um, how are, how do these two things affect you too? Cause I know we're talking about the cycling, but there's a difference between the full mania and a hypomania. Anthony, why don't you go ahead? So honestly that kind of, what's the word for it? Hypomania is regulatable, I think, almost. You can actually still decide, oh, this is a bad idea. I probably shouldn't do that, even though the pull to do whatever, make whatever decision is very strong, you still have that right frame of mind. Whereas with... like full on you're in it. I feel that it's just a fuck it send it you know and going back to that episode we were talking about cars when my mom said that she decided to make the decision to cross the street even though she knew that it wasn't a good idea and I think that describes those symptoms really well. Hypo mania. And I love that reference. Chérie, I'm sorry, you said something? the hypomania versus mania. So bipolar one comes with mania and my rapid cycling bipolar technically comes with hypomania. And what Anthony's saying is to some degree true, like you can, you still have some of that executive function where you can make a decision. It's really, really hard to choose. right. It's very hard. Sometimes I can't do it. It depends on how tired I am or whether or not I've eaten. There are a lot of factors that go into that. But I'll say that I still have a shred of decision-making capability. It's really difficult to use it. Yeah, Mania's almost a dreamlike state. It's a high, it's a high, that's really what it is. In the moment, it's super enjoyable for the most part. And life is better than it's ever been, you know, for that moment. Yeah. So that's what I'm told. And when I was working, because most of us start our internships and our pursuit of our licenses within rehabs or working with children, things like that, I was working in a few different rehabs, outpatient stuff. And one of the things that I was learning there is, and whether or not you want to talk about medications or anything like that, I'm going to leave that up to the two of you. Yeah, sure. but it was told to me and it makes sense. I don't wanna take my medications when I'm on a manic episode. Why do I wanna stop this? I also want to add like, although you can feel your highest during a manic episode, I would say all your different feelings and emotions are just heightened. Where like you might feel negative emotions very intensely as well. But for the most part, I would say it is a positive experience. Besides living with the after effects of the decisions you've made. Yeah. the dreaded real life consequences. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, like, um, before I understood what was happening to me before I was, you know, I was bipolar, but before I had gotten to the correct diagnosis, I have distinct memories of spending all of my rent money on like, shoes. things that I didn't need. You know, I had three kids that I was supposed to be taking care of, and I was working two, sometimes three jobs at a time, sleeping maybe three or four hours a night. And, you know, at the time, no hope for much better than that, and then still taking all of that money and spending it on going out to eat or dumb things, you know, not even taking care of myself or my family, but all of that money would be gone. while I was hypomanic, knowing this is a really bad decision. I'm going to have to deal with consequences later, but not being able to stop myself from doing it. And then having to deal with those consequences, you know, we moved a lot. And it sounds like it's really compounded the more, I'm gonna say short people, the more children we have or the more people responsible for, the weight of those decisions is incrementally more dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. But it's not all bad, the mania. Like, you can get a lot done in a short period of time. You know, sometimes I'll go to work and I'll tell my boss, and think, what do we have left to do? I'm manic and it's the good kind, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because for me, my mania is also really closely associated with rage. So the mania is fantastic until the split second that it's absolutely not. And then everything hits the fan. Um, and that's how it goes for me is then how it goes for you, Anthony. Yes, I mean, I definitely crash out sometimes, but on the on the same way that mine leads up a little bit more, I think a lot of times I have a longer ramp down. But I'm also down there much longer than you are. Yeah. you know, so... Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's Derek where our podcast ended up coming from. Like after Anthony's diagnosis, he knew, he started to see things that he was going through and noticed the parallel between what he'd observed as a younger person. And he would just call me and say, this is how I'm feeling. Like, does that happen to you? What do I do? You know, how long is it gonna feel like this? That kind of thing. And then one day he just sort of joked, you know, on a phone call where we were talking about, I think you were manic at the time. And he said, Mom, this is a podcast. We could just make these phone calls a podcast. And that's how we ended up with bipolar bloodlines. Just about anything's a podcast if you believe it. Pretty much. So Anthony, how old were you when you got your diagnosis? Ooh. Um, okay. So that's, that's a, I think 21. Um, when I got my diagnosis, so I was in the Air Force at the time. And once a year, the Air Force basically sends out I forget what they're called. It's like a questionnaire, like a health mental health questionnaire. It asks like, you know, what's your water intake? Like, how much are you sleeping? Do you have suicidal ideations? Bunch of things and it's required to do it every year. And I had to take it three times the same year, which is weird. So basically someone was like recommending that I take it. And, um, on the third one that I took the one year, I was like, so, okay, more backstory, I was an air traffic controller. And if you're an air traffic controller and you have mental health issues, you get kicked out. It's an FAA disqualifier to have any mental health problems. Can't take medication. Yep. Yeah. Can't be bipolar and work for the FAA. So... not in the military and not in the civilian world either. I figured that much, yeah. So, um, people in those types of fields, pilots, air traffic control, very apprehensive to ever be honest about how they're feeling stuff because their entire career is going to be gone. But I was in a mood that day and I said, you know what, fuck it, I'm gonna actually be honest on this questionnaire, because I just lied, you know, usually because I didn't want to get kicked out. But I was like, whatever. It asked about the sleep. I was like, I'm maybe sleeping like two, three hours a night. I had super bad insomnia back then. I was having to like drink myself to sleep. It was, it was because my mania was lasting so long. And So one day I get called in, they say, hey, you have to come to the mental health office. I was like, Oh my god, like, what's going on. They ended up diagnosing me with something else. And I forget exactly what it was, but basically it was, excuse me, it was bipolar, but basically shifted down. So it was like depression, but still the mood swings just only within the depression because I had shown no manic episodes while they were during the time period that they knew of. So and you have to show one for a week for it to qualify. and... I knew mom was bipolar and I told them that and seeing how someone who was bipolar unmedicated like, reacted and did things, I was very scared and very in denial that these were the symptoms that I was having, you know. the social worker, the psychiatrist repeatedly would ask me like, hey, like, do you think maybe it could be bipolar? And every time I'd say no, no. One, because I knew it was a disqualifier and two, because I just didn't, I didn't want to. I thought that having that diagnosis would mean that I would have to treat people and do the same things that I saw growing up. and I didn't want to be that person. Um, I also didn't really know all that much about mental health. Like I knew mom was bipolar, but I didn't exactly know what that really meant. Like I understand there were mood swings involved, but, um, so anyway, I had a manic episode, like bought like two new cars within like three months of each other, um, and then I got diagnosed. Yeah, I like blew all my money on clothes and cars at one point. you were discharged. Yes, I was medically discharged from my bipolar. So two new cars, no income. Nope. Well, as soon as I got out, I got, well, honestly, the military has great programs for veterans leaving. Like they will make sure you're set up with a job if you want to be. But I ended up finding my own job and I just became, I worked for the DEA for a bit. And then from there I went and became a private investigator for a while. it on your feet. Yeah. Chérie, as a mom. You've got to be pretty proud of that. Proud of him. I am, yeah, because I know personally how hard that is to land on your feet, but you know, Anthony has landed on his feet more than once, you know. He's always been really good at that. So, you know, mother-son, similar, you know, we're still talking the mood disorder category. Oftentimes when, you know, and Chérie I know you're working in healthcare, but, you know, when a parent has something and they find out that their child has something similar, you know, hey, get checked out for this, X, Y, Z, how did that impact you learning, hey, my son has bipolar disorder? Oh, I feel incredibly guilty. I know rationally that that's not my fault. That's genetics. But I also know where it comes from. It comes from me. And so I feel guilty. And I'm grateful that he has access to the resources that he does and that he's had them from day one. he doesn't have to experience the things that I experienced being misdiagnosed, being unmedicated. The things that he's talking about, you know, that he was he was scared and he didn't want to admit to it was because I didn't have access to those resources, you know. So he doesn't ever have to experience his bipolar in the way that I did. I would say that's such a blessing too, because, um, you know, I get all my healthcare through the VA and they really like force feed you the, you know, if you, if you're having problems, if you have mental health issues, like come to us, you know, all this, and just the way I grew up, um, and just like being a man, I guess, I don't want to ask for help. So just seeing how how much it had become accepted and that it was actually okay to like accept this. I if that weren't the case I would have never gotten help. Seriously like it just wouldn't have happened. I would have never gone out and searched for that help because I'm just not that type of person. Do you think you would have lied on that on that last form? And said, yep, nomadic episodes. I'm good. Yeah, probably. Hmm. I mean, everybody lies on those forums. Oh, I know. I absolutely know. You know, I'm just starting my own practice. I've been doing this now for about five or six weeks. And there's a wonderful NGO called Give an Hour. And I'm going to plug for them. I don't know if either of you have heard of this, but I'm going to plug for them. I haven't talked to them in a while, but give an hour. Basically, there's an agreement between a therapist and the organization. And we agree to work with active duty, retired veterans, family, the whole nine yards, one hour a week, absolutely free. That's awesome, Derek. What a lot of, I think it's fantastic. My dad does a lot of work with the VFW down. He actually works with the honor guard and he serves in that capacity. We're chatting about it. I think I want to do this. I'm not there yet. Got to have the income first before I can support that. But that's, it's a year, it's an hour a week. Because what a lot of civilians don't know is. When your insurance is tied to your job, and you're going to seek care, your leadership has access to some of those records. And to Anthony's point, that's a, it is. was diagnosed is, um, you Anthony left home, I think when you were just 17. Yeah, he was 17 when he joined the Air Force and he scored really high on his ASVAB, which allowed him to become the air traffic controller. And I saw how hard he worked for it. And I know what it's like to work that hard for something and it just sort of got ripped away from him because of something that he got from me. And there are definitely days where I feel that the weight of that is heavier than other days, probably during my more depressive episodes, I think about that and I hold onto it a little harder than I do otherwise, but. Yeah, I know I can't blame myself, but there is a lot of guilt. the head and the heart don't agree. Yeah. I mean, that's what a lot of mental health is. Say that again, Anthony? you know? Huh? Oh, I said I don't blame you. It's on, that's a me thing, you know? That's something I blame myself for. How can you blame yourself for having bipolar? I'll just hit listen, because this is like, I had the same thought. the I mean, well, like I said, like, I could have lied on that questionnaire and gotten by. You would still have bipolar. You would, you could have lied. But how can you, but how can you blame yourself for the existence of the thing that you have that is not your fault? I blame myself for opening the door to the opportunity for me to get kicked out. Okay. All right, that makes more sense. I see what you're saying. That's what you meant by saying blowing shit up, Chérie? Okay, I wasn't sure if we were getting into like a ragey type thing, but just blowing the situation up. I also had to watch his whole life just blow up. Everything changed for him. You know, he was going through so much at the time and there was so little I could do to help him. You know, he just sort of had to go through those things to get to a point where he was being treated and get to the right medication and, you know, come back home. And there's like a huge, you know, I'd say like, as a whole society is becoming like a lot more accepting of it. But military guys are not the best at talking about their feelings, you know, so when it's when, you know, people talk, you know, if you're in the same unit, and when it goes around like, oh, like, he's been going to mental health or He's getting out for mental health issues. Like people just start to look down on you. They think you're a pussy. So that was difficult in and of itself. I was states away, had to find a job, had to find a house, not being here. I was going through some stuff just personally, besides that with like the people I had around me. And it was a big... transitionary period for me. I made a lot of mistakes. away, so like geographically far away from the rest of the family, you know, there wasn't a whole lot that I or anyone else could do to just sort of, you know, couldn't even come over and put an arm around him and let him know it was going to be okay. You don't get terminal leave and an exit strategy when you're when you're discharged in that way, do you? I did. So basically I just tacked it on so that I could get paid a little bit while I was still while I was like a civilian. So I can move back early basically. So I moved back like a month earlier than I wanted then I technically should have if that makes sense. So what was it like to come back home? I'm gonna say come back home. Like it's not a bad thing to come back home. It sounds like you two really, it sounds like the whole family in some way, shape or form is really supportive. So what was that like, the reunion? Uh, it was good. Um, it was very weird. I think. You know, I, I left for a reason, you know, there was, I didn't want to be here. So coming back, things were different, but I also had a really big feeling of like, I'm back at square one, you know, and. Um, but it was a big life change, right? So that like kicked me into mania. And I was like feeling great after like a week of being here, really like jumped back into things, started making friends, uh, started doing like really well at the job I started. And we can make friends and really have a great time in a manic episode, can't we? We're very likable. Until we get angry. You know what I'm thinking of? I don't know why this just popped into memory. Anthony and I were invited out to Utah to do some film advertising for a school that we, I graduated from, he currently attends. And we were out there together in the middle of a place that we'd never been before. Anthony, were you manic at that time? Oh, yeah. Yeah. made like six new friends and like sent me 152 photos of this like wild adventure that he and his new friends that he met in a bar went on one night while we were out and I was asleep. I mean you sent so many pictures, so many pictures and I was like did these guys know each other? No, they didn't know each other either. Like Anthony's just making friends and then taking those friends and making more friends and then taking those friends and making more friends and then relocating to another bar. Were there some scooters involved? I don't... yeah, we were riding around Salt Lake on the little electric scooters. And I'm just now thinking about this, I had not until this moment made the connection between being super manic and making friends that way. Cause that doesn't happen for me. It doesn't. If. I mean, I have no I have no shell when I manic I can just, you know, for the most part, talk to anybody. Okay, let me put it this way, I almost go like with like the MBTI. I don't know if you know that is like the Myers-Briggs, whatever. But I, I'm generally an I, and I would say it kicks me into an E. Where I become extroverted, honestly. Hmm. Yeah, I can see that. I noticed that about you. The filters off. It's not just the words. We always talk about this interpersonal word filter we have a lot of times. But the behavioral filter comes off too. Hey, you want to? Hold my beer. Hehehehehehehehe Yeah... I, uh... So you both got that one, did you? Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely, definitely a lot more reckless. You know, I might try to do a front flip off a roof or something that I normally wouldn't. For, for instance, I'm looking at Chérie right now. Chérie, tell me what's going on. I'm just hoping that's a hypothetical. No guarantees with this one, is there? Just really, and if it's not a hypothetical, I don't want to know. Thank you. But I do, I know what you mean. You know, we had a conversation on one of our podcasts about how hypersexuality also comes with mania. You know, that was definitely something I experienced. In a way that... I didn't have enough awareness of the thing or, not or, but and also being hypomanic, not having a filter enough to really care about who noticed. So you know, it was happening and I didn't care who knew. You know, so my family knew I was married at the time, my husband knew. And, you know, years later, find out that my children also knew. And, uh, you know, Anthony and I had a conversation about that on, on one of our episodes, but yeah, reckless behavior. Definitely. I wasn't doing any front flips off a roof or anything like that, but. there were other things that I did that were detrimental to myself and to my family and to my situation and had to pay the consequences later. Yeah, it's when we talk about things like the hypersexuality, there's a TV show, big TV movie buff on ABC that featured, I don't know if you all watch Yellowstone at all, but the woman who plays Beth. Anthony's like, yep, the woman who plays Beth was a neuropsychiatrist is a one season. The shows I like don't last. That's just the rule. So the she would avoid her meds and she would get into these precarious situations. You know, it was I think at the time, probably a lot of viewers were like, yeah, we don't want to see this. You know, this needs to be something on a different channel or at a different time. We didn't we didn't see anything inappropriate. It was still network television. But to go from. You know, she was when she was medicated, she was very balanced, very. she was an academic, she was a researcher and studying brains and chemistry and things like that, but then she was married. husband, her husband knew about it or at least suspected it, you know, you're staying late tonight kind of thing, you know, you've got some extra pills in your pill bottle, they're not missing what's going on. So, and part of that recklessness, it seems like we don't cover our tracks either. We're not thoughtful enough. No, I'm not thoughtful enough, but also I recall having active thoughts of, I don't care who knows, and I don't care if there's evidence left for someone to find out. Yeah. Yeah, I... I'm very honest when I'm manic. I see no reason to lie about anything. If... And sometimes that honesty comes across as mean. Yes, definitely. Say what's on your mind. Yeah. I experienced that too. You know, it's one of the things that I've had to learn to control a little better. it almost when you're manic, it feels like it's your true self. Okay. So like, when you're having manic thoughts, you're, you're like, why on earth would I lie about how I'm feeling because this is what my true self is actually going through, you know, and I'm not saying that that's necessarily the truth of the matter. But that's the sort of thought process that I'm having at least I don't know if you can relate mom. Yeah, I can relate. Sometimes, you know, when I'm manic, there are things that I do when I manic, or things that increase when I manic, and I'll be like, oh, there she is, you know, and, you know, but then also have this separate brain that knows what's happening, that is aware you know, of this other self who has now come to stand in front. And I know that she's not going to stand in front forever. And that the person that she's standing in front of right now will be the person in front, you know, in a day or two or a week. You know, so it's like there's two people. I've tried to make that sort of thing and make it not sound like I have multiple personalities, but I just can't seem to do it. And Anthony, right there when your mom said, there she is talking in the third person, sometimes there can be some dissociative thing going on. Not necessarily personalities, but years ago, I live in upstate New York, years ago, sure, you might remember this. There's a big news thing. There are several skiers up at Whiteface Mountain up toward Lake Placid. and one of their skiing party went missing. They searched for this guy for a long time. I still don't even know what happened, but he was found not wearing his skis, not wearing his boots, nothing, in California. Completely dissociated. It's a fugue. A fugue. Yeah. No. Yeah. I do remember that story. It's not, it's not dissociative that way. What I'm describing the two Cheries are very aware of one another. Very aware. Well, and I assume that because you said there she is, you recognized her. yeah, yeah. They coexist and they know they will each have their moment in the sun. And sometimes Manic Chérie hogs it. And it's really hard to come down from that, you know? And from, you know, when you say sometimes Manic Chérie hogs it, Anthony, from what you've said, Mania is a hog anyway. Mania doesn't want to share. Yeah, a hundred percent. If you're manic, you want to stay manic for the most part. Maybe he'll be back. Although I do sometimes get. there, but. Sorry, go ahead. You're okay. You froze for a second. We're back. Yeah, you guys are frozen too. I honestly forgot my train of thought, so. I do sometimes forget where. Yeah, like I said, it's gone. your train of thought? Yeah, it's funny when I visit Anthony, sometimes just walking in the house before I even, I mean, Anthony has roommates, but, and I might encounter one of them before I encounter Anthony, but sometimes just by the way the house is, I can tell whether or not Anthony is manic or has been recently, because all of the furniture will be in a different place. That's one of the things that he does when he's manic. He will rearrange all the furniture, even if it's just like turning a table from one angle, it's still in the same spot. Now it's just. my clothes, I'll reorganize the way I organize my clothes. I'll go with like a completely new system, take everything out, put everything back in a completely different way. Right now it's by brand and length of sleeve. And then it's also divided into type of shirt. So like my polos and stuff like this are all together by brand. And then my t-shirts are all together separated by brand. Like is this compulsive for you? Do you have to do it? It's an itch, but it's also cathartic. It feels good after I do it. Is it, but Anthony, is it an itch that must be scratched or can you wait an hour and it'll go away? Mmm. If I wait an hour, it's gonna come back later. It's going to get done. It's just a matter of when, if that makes sense. Yeah, that seed is planted. Just- And just standard disclaimer, we're not diagnosing or assessing anything right here. We're just chatting. This is not mental health in terms of clinical work. Got to say that for the lawyers, so to speak. But no, look, we all understand. So an hour later, two hours later. Even if you go to bed, you're going to wake up in the morning and think closet, brands, sleeve length, the whole deal, Anthony. Mm, no, out of sight out of mind for the most part with the closet. You know, it's just going to be every time I go in there, I'm going to be like, this looks like shit. I really need to get on this. And then eventually, I've just said that to myself so many times that I just say, OK, I'm just doing it now. But there's a difference between this looks like shit, I'm going to clean it up and I'm going to overhaul this. Hmm. I don't know. I don't know. it doesn't actually look bad. I just think it looks bad. Like it was organized just in a different way. And for whatever reason, it's just not cutting it for me anymore. It's it's almost like part of Anthony's personality is if he's going to do it, he's going to do it all the way. Yes, that is true. Yeah, do things the right way. Or don't do them. When you have an itch like that you have to scratch and you decide that you're going to do it, okay, today's the day, I'm going to overhaul the closet, just today we're going to organize by color and that kind of thing, do you find yourself, the way you sometimes irresponsibly spend money, do you find yourself irresponsibly spending your time? Like, do you end up with a time deficit that you can't fix after that? Yeah, a lot of times I would say it's a snowball, right? So I start my closet. All right, when that's done, I might start deep cleaning the house, you know, and then it just turns into like, an all day thing, you know, and so that's why sometimes I put it off because I know that if I start, it's not just gonna be the closet, it's gonna be however many more things, you know. It's never just the closet. It's never just the closet, yeah. Do you have the same? I don't feel the need to rearrange my closet like that. I think for me, it more manifests in spending too much time on things that don't necessarily need to be done, or it'll be something that doesn't need to be done, but I'll decide that it needs to be done, and then I'll do it, and I end up with a deficit of time, and that... is like my number one trigger like that will... Yes. It's my number one thing. If I end up with a deficit of time that I cannot recuperate, it will set me off instantly. When you're manic, is it still like that? Do you still get really triggered by time? Because for me, when I'm manic, I would say I'm almost on island time, you know, where it's, I couldn't give a, I couldn't care less what time things get done. Especially if it's like other people like telling me where to be. I don't care, I'm gonna be there when I get there. But I'm not like that normally, I'm very much on time. Hmm. Okay, so the next time I manic, I'm really going to have to pay attention to what happened. You're asking, do I feel affected in the same way if I lose time when I manic as if I feel... I don't know. I'm going to have to think about that. I'm going to have to tell my husband that... Keep an eye out. Yeah, because I know what I'm like when I manic. I don't trust myself to make that assessment. So I'm gonna have to tell him that so that he can make the assessment and then when I'm not manic anymore, he can let me know whether or not that's something he observed. That's a really interesting question. real quick, because we're almost out of time, only because I have to actually see clients. But, so an observation for Anthony. Anthony, before we started, your mom said, he's going to be here right on time. because it's a military thing. He's no longer gonna be way early. He'll be here when he gets here, but he'll be here. So you referenced island time. And I was like, yes, he delivered. He mentioned island time. So, and I used to be like 15, 20 minutes early for everything. And then I realized I don't wanna be anxious all that much anymore. I'm on, I'm like. habit to shake. Hard habit to shake coming out of the military. But you gotta be able to give those 20 minutes back to yourself, you know? Yeah, because you need them. And then, oh wow, what? Sorry, that was rude. Whoop, she got. in your practice, do you, one of the reasons that we started bipolar bloodlines was that we didn't think that anything like that existed. There are a lot of mental health podcasts. There are a lot of bipolar podcasts. I didn't see anything in that space where one generation, was willing to have a conversation with another generation about the trauma that Generation One imposed, you know, let them have that space and have a conversation about it. For example, I could never sit down with my parents and have this conversation, ever. That just would not happen. There would not be even any asking, can we make this happen? Do you, in your practice as a therapist, encounter families who want to sit down and have that conversation or is that something that doesn't happen as often as you think it should? say that. I mean, you haven't talked to them in years. You have no idea what they're like. Oh, my parents. Yeah, that's true. I haven't talked to them in years. I mean, they could be as different from who I knew them to be as I am from who I knew myself to be. Exactly. Yeah, that's a different story for another day. So I do experience it sometimes. A lot of us in solo practice will offer like a 15 minute consultation. Sometimes we get hired, sometimes we don't. Just like any provider. But I've had folks ask me, I'm going through this thing, I wanna talk to my folks about it. Um, you know, for some people it's, I want to, I want to tell them I'm gay. You know, I don't know how to do that. For some it's, you know, why am I the way that I am? I do a lot of intergenerational work where, you know, the way Anthony was raised is going to be completely different than the way Cherie was raised. Because back in, it was a baby boomers were among the first women to actually work outside the house. At least those with means. You know, there were folks that were struggling financially in the different areas of socioeconomic spectrum where they had to. But until the 40s, 50s, 60s, we didn't have that. So the Latsky kids and the whole jokes about Gen X being feral and drinking water from the hose and raising themselves and absolutely. I'm like, wait a minute, you are one of us. So thank you. Sorry, Anthony, a little moment there. But. water hose water. I'm going to say Anthony of my three kids. Yeah, he, he kind of got like, he sort of straddles that fence. Yeah, he was definitely, he, and I think part of that has to do with what we talked about at the beginning of the episode was that he had, somebody had to be responsible and he had to figure it out, you know? Shree, I love the way you brought it back. So I do need to actually flip over to, I'm going to say, the other channel. I really enjoyed our time together this afternoon. Thank you so much. How can we, how can we find you online? Um, well, we do have a TikTok presence. Um, Anthony, what's our TikTok? Is it at bipolar bloodlines? I think everything is at BipolarBloodlines, Bipo BipolarBloodlines on iHeartRadio, Spotify, I think we're on Apple Podcast as well, Google Podcast, I use the Spotify. you know, working on those things. So you can find us everywhere. So you may not be working three jobs, but you're working that hard right now, aren't you? But you're getting time with your son. Yeah. And I love it. You know, even when the conversation is uncomfortable, I still love spending that time with you, Anthony. That's why I have two sons. One of them has a number one son mug. So. Anthony, they both do, I bet. Yeah, well, I don't know. That's... I think you like the other son a little better. He's just the youngest. Yeah. I look forward to hearing about that on your show sometime soon. But folks, I so much I really appreciate Chéree finally getting to talk to you in person and Anthony here seeing you and hearing the I'm going to say the voice I know you're a little self conscious about it but man you too. I love having this hour with you. Thank you so much for making that happen for me. Thank you. Thanks for having us. All right. Yeah, man.