Ev: The Human Quest for Identity and Connection (TW: Trauma, Sexual Content)

In this episode, Derek is joined by San Francisco transplant turned local educator within Kink / BDSM.  Ev Lokidottir is a trauma survivor, kink/BDSM and Negotiation educator, and a chronic volunteer when it comes to supporting her community and friends.  She openly shares some of her experiences when it comes to that support, including some of her own significantly traumatic events, opting, rather than hiding, to share in the hopes that her words might help others find hope and healing.  

Transcript

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Hi, welcome back to the Sage In Time
podcast.

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This is Derek Wittman.

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I'm a licensed mental health counselor in
New York and a licensed professional

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counselor in Pennsylvania.

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And today we're joined by Ev Locadator and
she is joining us originally from

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California.

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She is relocated to the upstate New York
area and I'm so glad you're with us today,

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Ev.

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How are you?

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Oh, I'm wonderful.

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Thank you so much for asking.

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I'm happy to be here.

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I'm hoping that I can be helpful.

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And I also wanted to say thank you to all
of the mental health professionals that

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are out there listening to this right now
who are making an effort to learn to help

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better serve this population of patients
because it's a real vulnerability for

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people and there's a lot of hesitancy and
knowing that one can come to their

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therapist, their psychologist, their
psych-

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and be open about what's going on without
fear can save lives.

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So again, thank you for that.

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Thank you also.

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So, one of the things that we started
talking about together as we were putting

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this, kind of piecing it together was you
have a background in sex and kink

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education.

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And as, sorry, as was.

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we're going to cut that, we're going to
come back, okay?

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You have a background in sex and kink
education as well as a history of being a

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professional dominatrix, so that's
correct.

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And can you tell us, let's start with the,
let's start with the sex and kink

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education.

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Can you tell us a little bit more about
your time there?

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So I come from the San Francisco Bay Area.

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I joined the lifestyle community in 1997 I
Learned a lot.

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I had mentors.

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I eventually became a mentor to a number
of people I took many classes and Taught

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people a little bit also when I was in the
profession So when I moved to upstate, New

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York, I saw that there was a need for

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classes to be taught and I was happy to do
so.

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I've always loved teaching.

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I've taught in other aspects of my life.

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So I was very glad to be able to step into
that role here and I'm honored by the

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trust of the communities in this area for
allowing me to do so.

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There's no certification for this.

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Basically you get a reputation, people
like what you have to say and how you say

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it, and they ask you to do it and then...

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that's where they getcha, because then
they ask you to do it again, and then they

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ask you to do it again, and then it's a
thing.

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So now it has become a thing.

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There are people far more impressive than
I am, that travel all around the country

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or the world teaching classes.

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Like, you know, you've got Jay Wiseman,
the classic BDSM 101 author guy, who is

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also an expert witness in criminal trials
that involve BDSM, especially...

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Homicide is it murder was it an accident
who gets charged who teaches about that as

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well You've got people like Anton Fulman
who wrote the Heart of Dominance Lots and

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lots of people way cooler than me, but I
do my best I want my community to be happy

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and healthy and I want to be in a happy
and healthy and safe community and

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sometimes The way to make a big change in
the world is to be that change

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Although I have to say that the
communities here have been wonderful and

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uh, weren't something that I needed to
fix.

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I wanted to just uh, hasten to say that,
but I was very happy to help everybody new

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coming in and anybody that had questions
that had been around for a while because I

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mostly teach BDSM 101 which teaches people
about things like consent, safety,

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negotiation, uh, how to behave within the
community, how to make sure everybody is

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safe and happy

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of what's legal and what isn't, things
like that.

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But I also sometimes teach a negotiation
class, and I have some other ones in the

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works.

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Does that answer your question?

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That was huge.

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So and quite a wide array.

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If we can kind of pick a little bit at
that, not pick, but kind of dive a little

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bit.

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You said that you had moved in from San
Francisco and you had mentioned the fact

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that you had seen some things and there
was some like there seemed to be a need

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for education now or support.

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What were your observations?

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just that people had questions and there
weren't very many classes being taught.

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So I said well I'd be happy to teach a
class about negotiation.

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I think that's the first one that I taught
here and people really liked that and so

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then they said well hey would you teach
the 101 class because I think they didn't

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have somebody regularly teaching the 101
class at that time.

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See in San Francisco there are numerous
classes that happen every week and there's

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A munch, which is a gathering of kinky
folks discussing something without, you

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know, expectations of play.

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Usually they're having a meal or coffee or
the like.

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There was a munch or two every single day.

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So I came from someplace with an
incredibly active community because there

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were like tens of thousands of people,
possibly more active in the community.

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Folsom Street Fair could easily get half a
million people.

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That is a kink street fair that occurs in
the city of San Francisco.

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So we had a lot going on there.

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And where I am now is a much smaller area,
so there's not as much going on.

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And, you know, I suppose I have terminal
volunteerism and I thought, well, it would

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be great to teach a class because I keep
seeing certain questions coming up about

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negotiation and people wondering.

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And

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And honestly, even in the Bay Area, you
know, there's always new people.

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They don't always know where to look.

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And I met people who had horrible
experiences because nobody had taught

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them.

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Uh, what was normal in the community, they
might've come from a book that was a great

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fantasy, but would be an abusive reality.

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They might've had fantasies, but not
really known.

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And they might have run into someone that.

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preyed on that or that didn't even really
know themselves.

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So I decided when I moved here I have the
time now.

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I will offer to share my experience and
teach and hopefully help the people here

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be a little safer and a little bit
happier.

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and your experience is that you are making
a difference.

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I hope so.

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I hope so.

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I've had people say that.

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I've had a lot of people thank me for the
classes and say that it was helpful.

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I have had conversations, which I'm not
going into because it's confidential, of

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course, where people had questions about
things that had happened to them or that

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were being done, that I was able to help
them with and tell them, no, that's not

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okay.

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And yes, you do have the support of the
community in this.

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You don't have to worry about.

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people judging you or saying that you're
not a real submissive or a real dominant

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or you don't belong here because you
wanted to set a boundary and that wasn't

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respected, for example, because a lot of
people worry that they're going to be

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judged and worry that they're going to be
found lacking.

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When I started martial arts, I had my
first ever belt test and I had seen

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documentary from the 70s about a black
belt test where the person couldn't get a

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black belt unless they beat everybody in a
fight.

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They had to win all of their fights to get
a black belt and so for some reason I

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thought that as a brand new white belt I
had to defeat the black belt guy that they

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put me up against to get the first stripe
on my belt and I was so upset with myself

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because I didn't win but you know we

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We are so good at putting pressure on
ourselves and setting ourselves up to fail

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and seeing failure as the worst thing that
could possibly happen, even though failure

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can be a great teacher.

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And we put so much pressure on ourselves
to be perfect at everything before we've

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ever even tried it.

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And that's not that's not the way anything
works.

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We're all new at one point and we all
still have so much to learn.

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the moment we think that we don't have
anything to learn, we stop growing.

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And that's a real tragedy.

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So a lot of people I think are afraid to
get involved in the community because they

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think that they're not good enough or they
think that they're too new.

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But that's not the case at all.

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Everybody's new at some point and we love
new people and it's not about being

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judged.

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It's about creating a safe place for
people to come.

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and do these things that we do where we
can be accepted and not have to worry

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about the rest of the world.

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you know we're talking about failure you
know all of us fail at something sometimes

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repeatedly now i've talked with folks
earlier on in this series who have

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struggled with um injury i mean failure in
this world could mean death

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It could.

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It very much could.

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That is something people should always be
aware of.

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And do everything in their power to
mitigate those risks.

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Yes.

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And it seems like those risks are not
limited to activities, but could be

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specific people.

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They could.

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They absolutely could.

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I know that in the class, in the most
recent class, I think that you had

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presented, we were talking about making
phone calls, those safety calls, things

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like that.

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Yeah.

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Would you like me to speak on safety a
little bit?

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Okay.

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So there are a lot of things that people
can do to help make themselves safer when

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they get involved in BDSM.

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The first thing is to take their time.

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It's very exciting and people want to rush
in, but you can't really give

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enthusiastic, informed...

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consent if you don't understand what
you're getting into because you're not

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informed.

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And every single group of humans in the
world pretty much has predators because

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that is the nature of humans.

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There are predatory humans.

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And as hard as we try, there's always
going to be someone who's going to either

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try to put themselves in a position of
power so that they can prey on others or

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hunt around the peripheral and find people
who are new and who don't know better yet.

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and prey on them.

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So what I tell people is always vet the
person that you're thinking about getting

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involved with.

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Does anybody know them?

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Do they have a reputation?

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Talk to leaders of groups that you trust.

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Ask around.

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Do they get really upset and offended if
you ask around about their reputation and

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ask yourself why?

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Why are they

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angry that you're keeping yourself safe
and valuing yourself because you're

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showing value in your own safety you're
also valuing them in a way you're saying i

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respect myself so if i give myself to you
that's showing that i respect you too does

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that make sense so somebody who gets upset
and offended about this either they have

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something to hide or they maybe need to do
a little bit of introspection and work on

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themselves and wonder why

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you might know that you're a totally safe
person.

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And so it might be really offensive to you
to think that somebody would feel the need

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to ask around.

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But they don't know.

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They're not inside of your head.

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Nobody can actually read anybody's mind.

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They don't know your entire history.

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They can only go by faith.

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And this is a very serious thing that we
do.

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So...

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Trust but verify is a pretty good policy,
actually.

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Check around about somebody's reputation.

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If somebody isn't involved in any of the
communities, find out why.

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They might have bad blood with somebody in
a community.

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That can happen.

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But every single community, they've never
been involved.

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They've never been to a class.

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They've never had a mentor.

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They've never talked to people.

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They've never demonstrated their skills
anywhere.

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They've...

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Never taken the time to learn anything in
person.

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Why is that?

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Have they been banned from events?

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Have they been banned from groups?

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And why is that?

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Is it just one group that has
interpersonal drama or is it multiple

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groups?

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How many data points are there here?

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So it's important to find these things out
It really is because there are people who

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will specifically target people who are
new

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and they will try to isolate them.

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So that's another red flag.

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If somebody says, hey, we just met in this
chat room and I'm going to collar you

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today, you're no longer allowed to talk to
anybody else.

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Well, that's like semaphores of red flags
right there.

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Why don't they want you to talk to anybody
else?

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00.14.14,185 --> 00.14.17,245
They don't want you to learn better.

233
00.14.18,082 --> 00.14.21,323
They don't want you to know that the
things that they're doing are not

234
00.14.21,323 --> 00.14.23,945
considered normal or okay.

235
00.14.24,205 --> 00.14.30,409
They pick up people who haven't learned
the culture of the BDSM community yet, and

236
00.14.30,409 --> 00.14.35,291
haven't learned the power that they have,
and the boundaries that they can set, and

237
00.14.35,291 --> 00.14.38,353
that don't have the support network to
back them up.

238
00.14.38,493 --> 00.14.42,456
So always watch out for people who try to
isolate you right away and forbid you from

239
00.14.42,456 --> 00.14.46,117
communicating with or learning from
anybody else.

240
00.14.46,554 --> 00.14.49,455
Also, watch for the cult of personality.

241
00.14.49,616 --> 00.14.54,199
Is there a guy that throws fun play
parties and he's got a hot tub, so it's

242
00.14.54,199 --> 00.14.55,379
really cool.

243
00.14.55,400 --> 00.15.00,784
But you keep hearing about these subs that
people don't know very well saying he

244
00.15.00,784 --> 00.15.02,104
violated me.

245
00.15.04,366 --> 00.15.08,969
And they get, they keep getting smacked
down because this guy is popular, but

246
00.15.08,969 --> 00.15.11,811
it's, you know, happened like more than
once.

247
00.15.11,811 --> 00.15.13,792
Pay attention to that.

248
00.15.13,873 --> 00.15.15,373
Because some people...

249
00.15.15,586 --> 00.15.22,249
put themselves in a place of power like
law enforcement, clergy, coaching, etc.

250
00.15.22,430 --> 00.15.27,033
And it's the same in the kink community,
you know, leading a group or hosting an

251
00.15.27,033 --> 00.15.30,755
event gives somebody power, gives them
social capital.

252
00.15.30,755 --> 00.15.35,498
So occasionally you will come across
somebody that engages in predatory

253
00.15.35,498 --> 00.15.40,901
behavior where they have the power and the
other person can be the one that gets

254
00.15.40,901 --> 00.15.41,761
shunned.

255
00.15.41,842 --> 00.15.45,743
It's already difficult enough when there's
been a consent violation.

256
00.15.45,764 --> 00.15.50,106
Even if it's, you know, in the vanilla
world, you see it all the time.

257
00.15.50,206 --> 00.15.57,390
Like in a family, a family member violates
the consent of another family member who

258
00.15.57,390 --> 00.16.01,872
has less power, younger, what have you,
and the rest of the family comes together

259
00.16.01,872 --> 00.16.05,094
with the, with the violator, with the
predator, because they want to keep the

260
00.16.05,094 --> 00.16.10,617
reputation or they want to keep, you know,
uncle creepy in the family, et cetera.

261
00.16.10,697 --> 00.16.11,377
So.

262
00.16.11,850 --> 00.16.16,391
There is a history of this happening,
humans do this, and it's awful.

263
00.16.16,391 --> 00.16.22,093
And we need to police ourselves and not
let ourselves do that and not let

264
00.16.22,093 --> 00.16.26,794
somebody's popularity blind us to what
they might be doing.

265
00.16.26,794 --> 00.16.31,836
We need to give weight to what people say,
even if they're new and not popular.

266
00.16.31,836 --> 00.16.34,216
So I tell people, you know, I'm a kink
educator.

267
00.16.34,216 --> 00.16.38,357
I always, I throw in bits of dark humor,
like

268
00.16.38,418 --> 00.16.43,942
I'm a kink educator, that doesn't mean
that I don't have an oil drum and an arc

269
00.16.43,942 --> 00.16.46,444
welder at home and a plan, okay?

270
00.16.46,765 --> 00.16.52,790
Check on my reputation, ask around about
me, look around, see if there's anything

271
00.16.52,790 --> 00.16.55,051
that just doesn't feel right, trust your
gut.

272
00.16.56,493 --> 00.17.01,217
You might think somebody's really exciting
and really, really want to get involved

273
00.17.01,217 --> 00.17.06,141
with them, but there is that little thing
that's telling you something does feel

274
00.17.06,141 --> 00.17.06,402
off.

275
00.17.06,402 --> 00.17.10,364
Here, don't make excuses, don't excuse
that away.

276
00.17.10,364 --> 00.17.15,707
Really look at that and analyze it and
say, is my gut telling me something or my

277
00.17.15,707 --> 00.17.16,867
instinct is telling me something?

278
00.17.16,867 --> 00.17.20,349
If something doesn't feel right, you know,
don't do it.

279
00.17.20,789 --> 00.17.25,231
If you're meeting somebody for the first
time, meet in public.

280
00.17.25,312 --> 00.17.29,414
If they're pressuring you to go over to
their house or a hotel room the first time

281
00.17.29,414 --> 00.17.31,955
you ever meet, that's a big red flag.

282
00.17.31,955 --> 00.17.34,377
Why aren't they willing to meet with you
in public?

283
00.17.34,377 --> 00.17.36,337
Why aren't they willing to go to a munch?

284
00.17.36,486 --> 00.17.40,869
and meet you there where, you know, the
community will also meet them.

285
00.17.41,529 --> 00.17.46,333
If you do go someplace with somebody, even
if it's like out at a coffee shop or

286
00.17.46,333 --> 00.17.50,737
something, there's something that I always
advise for the first time you meet someone

287
00.17.50,737 --> 00.17.52,518
and the first time you play with them.

288
00.17.52,818 --> 00.17.56,881
And this can go for people on the dominant
side of things as well.

289
00.17.57,202 --> 00.17.59,503
Uh, arrange for a safe call.

290
00.17.59,784 --> 00.18.02,585
A safe call is a phone call that you get.

291
00.18.02,958 --> 00.18.06,899
from somebody who knows where you are and
who you are with.

292
00.18.07,719 --> 00.18.11,720
And it can be coded or not, I usually do
coded.

293
00.18.12,460 --> 00.18.17,362
And I use the traffic-like system, which
is also a system used for safe words,

294
00.18.17,362 --> 00.18.22,383
which are signals or words that you give
to indicate that things are okay, that

295
00.18.22,383 --> 00.18.26,184
something needs to change, or that things
need to stop immediately because it's an

296
00.18.26,184 --> 00.18.27,264
emergency.

297
00.18.27,585 --> 00.18.30,285
So, for example, I...

298
00.18.30,874 --> 00.18.35,537
met up with a vanilla guy at a sushi bar
once and he invited me over to play Call

299
00.18.35,537 --> 00.18.44,084
of Duty, I think it was, and I said okay
and being in the kink scene we tend to

300
00.18.44,084 --> 00.18.48,026
usually be a lot more clear about what we
actually intend to do.

301
00.18.48,067 --> 00.18.53,371
If I say let's play Call of Duty, that's
what we have agreed to, so we're going to

302
00.18.53,371 --> 00.18.57,353
play Call of Duty, but this person is not
a part of that culture.

303
00.18.57,842 --> 00.19.01,824
And so I'm not totally sure he actually
just wants to play Call of Duty.

304
00.19.01,824 --> 00.19.04,085
And I'm not sure I'm going to feel
comfortable with that.

305
00.19.04,085 --> 00.19.07,306
So I set up a safe call with a housemate.

306
00.19.07,306 --> 00.19.10,367
I tell him I'm at this address with this,
this person.

307
00.19.10,888 --> 00.19.15,089
Um, I'd like it if you called me around 8
PM.

308
00.19.15,530 --> 00.19.19,152
Cause we would have been able to get a
number of rounds in at that point of Call

309
00.19.19,152 --> 00.19.23,633
of Duty and so he called me at 8 PM.

310
00.19.23,842 --> 00.19.27,744
And I was very glad that he had because I
beat the guy at Call of Duty a bunch of

311
00.19.27,744 --> 00.19.32,207
times and he decided that he wanted to
press me up against the couch and start

312
00.19.32,648 --> 00.19.38,011
being quite forceful with me and I wasn't
really comfortable with that.

313
00.19.38,091 --> 00.19.43,995
I was younger and it was harder at that
point for me to say, hey, no, stop right

314
00.19.43,995 --> 00.19.44,356
now.

315
00.19.44,356 --> 00.19.45,636
I don't want to do this.

316
00.19.46,557 --> 00.19.50,720
I think it would be easier for me now, but
you never know how you're going to react

317
00.19.50,740 --> 00.19.53,230
to a suddenly traumatic event.

318
00.19.53,230 --> 00.20.00,473
And as, as a woman who's only five foot
three, you know, when there's a large man

319
00.20.00,473 --> 00.20.05,535
and they've got me in a seated position, I
am not always confident that I can get

320
00.20.05,535 --> 00.20.12,719
away easily, but a safe call can provide a
little bit of social pressure.

321
00.20.13,199 --> 00.20.18,741
So he called and he said, Hey, do you know
where my sweater is?

322
00.20.19,870 --> 00.20.23,352
And at that point, I could give him three
different sweater colors.

323
00.20.24,433 --> 00.20.30,277
If I said the green one, he'd say, yeah,
I'd say, oh, it's on the kitchen table.

324
00.20.30,277 --> 00.20.31,138
And he'd say, thanks.

325
00.20.31,138 --> 00.20.31,418
Okay.

326
00.20.31,418 --> 00.20.32,038
Have a good night.

327
00.20.32,038 --> 00.20.32,759
Bye.

328
00.20.32,759 --> 00.20.35,240
Because the green one means everything's
fine.

329
00.20.35,281 --> 00.20.36,641
Don't worry about it.

330
00.20.36,662 --> 00.20.42,606
If I say the red one, then he'll say yes.

331
00.20.42,606 --> 00.20.45,148
And I'll say it's on the kitchen counter
and say, okay, thanks.

332
00.20.45,148 --> 00.20.47,769
Have a good night and hang up and call the
police.

333
00.20.48,486 --> 00.20.53,289
in my particular case or with somebody who
does not feel safe with law enforcement,

334
00.20.53,610 --> 00.20.58,554
which is a very valid thing because
sometimes law enforcement can be a bigger

335
00.20.58,554 --> 00.21.01,316
threat, as tragic as that is.

336
00.21.01,396 --> 00.21.05,199
You know, it might be a bunch of leather
daddies in big stompy boots kicking down

337
00.21.05,199 --> 00.21.09,102
the door because red means there is an
emergency.

338
00.21.09,183 --> 00.21.10,524
I don't feel that I can get away.

339
00.21.10,524 --> 00.21.12,105
My life is in danger.

340
00.21.12,165 --> 00.21.17,789
Uh, I said the yellow one which meant

341
00.21.18,234 --> 00.21.24,179
I'm not comfortable with this situation
and I need an excuse to leave that this

342
00.21.24,179 --> 00.21.25,620
person will accept.

343
00.21.26,501 --> 00.21.29,844
And he says very loudly, yes, the yellow
one.

344
00.21.29,844 --> 00.21.31,545
And I say, it's on the kitchen counter.

345
00.21.31,545 --> 00.21.32,866
And he'll say, thanks.

346
00.21.32,926 --> 00.21.34,247
Look, I'm so sorry.

347
00.21.34,247 --> 00.21.38,711
I hate to do this to you, but there's been
a shooting at my hotel and I need you to

348
00.21.38,711 --> 00.21.41,133
come get me and give me a ride home right
away.

349
00.21.42,094 --> 00.21.45,416
And the guy could hear him say that.

350
00.21.45,677 --> 00.21.46,438
And I said,

351
00.21.46,438 --> 00.21.50,000
Oh my god, I am so sorry, but look, I have
got to go right now.

352
00.21.50,000 --> 00.21.53,162
There's been a shooting and thankfully he
let me go.

353
00.21.53,162 --> 00.22.01,308
If he hadn't, I would have, would have
said, um, something probably like, well,

354
00.22.01,308 --> 00.22.02,769
do you have your red coat?

355
00.22.02,769 --> 00.22.04,850
Uh, you probably going to have to check in
there.

356
00.22.04,850 --> 00.22.10,193
I left a card for Uber and you can get
that because then

357
00.22.10,458 --> 00.22.15,280
He would know, okay, this hasn't been
accepted and now I am stuck here.

358
00.22.15,280 --> 00.22.19,721
He's trying to prevent me from leaving and
I am now in a crisis.

359
00.22.19,761 --> 00.22.26,164
But most of the time they'll give to that
pressure, especially if it's a man

360
00.22.26,164 --> 00.22.27,845
talking, believe it or not.

361
00.22.28,205 --> 00.22.32,727
On the other line, dudes like that,
they're more likely to listen to a man

362
00.22.32,727 --> 00.22.33,707
than a woman.

363
00.22.33,787 --> 00.22.34,928
That's not always the case.

364
00.22.34,928 --> 00.22.39,329
Women can be predators to anyone of any
gender can be a predator, but...

365
00.22.40,902 --> 00.22.42,003
That is the thing I've experienced.

366
00.22.42,003 --> 00.22.46,105
So, uh, and I left and I picked him up and
it turns out there had been a shooting at

367
00.22.46,105 --> 00.22.47,686
his hotel and he did need a ride home.

368
00.22.47,686 --> 00.22.51,829
So that was fortuitous in a way and scary.

369
00.22.51,829 --> 00.22.53,049
But, um...

370
00.22.53,596 --> 00.22.55,902
I mean the whole incident.

371
00.22.55,902 --> 00.22.57,022
Yeah, it was pretty intense.

372
00.22.57,022 --> 00.23.01,483
It really stuck in my mind, but you know,
I use it as a teaching opportunity.

373
00.23.03,344 --> 00.23.07,705
And so I prefer to take things and try to
make them into something useful.

374
00.23.07,705 --> 00.23.10,746
That's part of how I process them.

375
00.23.11,786 --> 00.23.17,028
I use them as a way to empower and gain
knowledge because knowledge is power, if

376
00.23.17,028 --> 00.23.21,109
that makes sense.

377
00.23.21,109 --> 00.23.22,189
Oh, you're welcome.

378
00.23.22,784 --> 00.23.27,849
I'm glad things turned out ultimately okay
if not rotten at the time.

379
00.23.28,190 --> 00.23.34,657
Now you there's no negotiation involved
here but you had mentioned being a

380
00.23.34,657 --> 00.23.36,799
negotiation educator as well.

381
00.23.38,081 --> 00.23.39,742
Is that something you want to share?

382
00.23.40,054 --> 00.23.41,935
Um, sure.

383
00.23.41,935 --> 00.23.44,976
I, I've taught about negotiation.

384
00.23.44,976 --> 00.23.47,278
I've taken a number of classes on them.

385
00.23.47,278 --> 00.23.52,701
Um, on it from, again, Anton Folman, the
person that I recommended before who

386
00.23.52,701 --> 00.23.57,624
writes the heart of dominance, he taught a
lot about negotiation.

387
00.23.57,624 --> 00.23.59,685
There are many, many aspects to it.

388
00.23.59,685 --> 00.24.06,428
It is vital for Kink to, you know, to
establish consent.

389
00.24.07,469 --> 00.24.08,229
It's

390
00.24.08,450 --> 00.24.12,731
vital to figure out what's gonna work
between two people and there are a lot of

391
00.24.12,731 --> 00.24.14,692
different ways to do it.

392
00.24.17,173 --> 00.24.22,516
For example, I find that a really
effective form of communication that's not

393
00.24.22,516 --> 00.24.26,017
universal always learn how people
communicate, but active listening.

394
00.24.26,017 --> 00.24.28,298
Are you you're familiar with active
listening?

395
00.24.29,039 --> 00.24.29,979
I'm guessing.

396
00.24.31,220 --> 00.24.35,401
Yeah, yeah, I what I'm hearing is that

397
00.24.36,007 --> 00.24.36,468
Mm-hmm.

398
00.24.36,468 --> 00.24.41,339
feel that you should understand this given
your profession and your area of

399
00.24.41,339 --> 00.24.42,621
expertise.

400
00.24.44,683 --> 00.24.46,086
Precisely.

401
00.24.46,571 --> 00.24.49,550
I will confirm that you are hearing
accurately.

402
00.24.49,550 --> 00.24.51,871
Yeah, see, and there we go, active
listening.

403
00.24.53,652 --> 00.24.58,614
Because people often aren't listening,
they're waiting for their turn to speak.

404
00.24.59,075 --> 00.25.03,357
And so, yeah, it's not sinking in as much.

405
00.25.03,477 --> 00.25.08,540
But active listening also makes people
feel heard and it makes them feel safer.

406
00.25.09,280 --> 00.25.13,983
It really, because it's not just
listening, it's also learning and it's

407
00.25.13,983 --> 00.25.18,785
confirming that you're actually learning
what the person is trying to convey.

408
00.25.19,126 --> 00.25.22,068
So I always advise that people work on
active listening.

409
00.25.22,068 --> 00.25.24,109
Communication is a skill.

410
00.25.24,109 --> 00.25.25,850
Social skills are skills.

411
00.25.25,850 --> 00.25.27,471
They are not inherent.

412
00.25.27,871 --> 00.25.32,955
Some people it comes to more easily than
others, but all of these things are

413
00.25.32,955 --> 00.25.33,515
skills.

414
00.25.33,515 --> 00.25.36,077
Negotiations is skill.

415
00.25.36,437 --> 00.25.39,959
You have to practice it and work on it.

416
00.25.41,841 --> 00.25.47,085
I have sitting here the really rough notes
from a negotiation class that I taught

417
00.25.47,085 --> 00.25.48,745
that took two hours.

418
00.25.49,202 --> 00.25.50,282
to teach.

419
00.25.50,723 --> 00.25.54,544
Oh yeah, just on negotiation.

420
00.25.54,685 --> 00.26.04,210
But the simplest form of negotiation is
negotiation- negotiating only what you

421
00.26.04,210 --> 00.26.09,873
want to do exactly and the way you want to
do it exactly and only that is okay and

422
00.26.09,873 --> 00.26.10,613
agreed to.

423
00.26.10,613 --> 00.26.15,556
When you're new to someone and especially
when you're new to kink, this can be the

424
00.26.15,556 --> 00.26.17,397
safest and best way to do things.

425
00.26.17,397 --> 00.26.18,857
For example-

426
00.26.19,030 --> 00.26.25,673
You might want only empty hand spanking
for a half hour over clothing.

427
00.26.26,374 --> 00.26.28,635
That is what has been negotiated.

428
00.26.28,835 --> 00.26.32,097
And you don't go outside of that
negotiation.

429
00.26.32,097 --> 00.26.35,178
You don't say, take off your clothes.

430
00.26.35,219 --> 00.26.37,020
You don't take your own clothes off.

431
00.26.37,020 --> 00.26.44,163
You don't grab a stop sign or an or, or a
cane and strike them with that.

432
00.26.44,444 --> 00.26.46,665
You pay attention to the time.

433
00.26.46,665 --> 00.26.48,205
You don't go past.

434
00.26.48,475 --> 00.26.49,600
half an hour.

435
00.26.50,371 --> 00.26.50,927
That is the...

436
00.26.50,927 --> 00.26.56,437
So that's, we would call that a
prescriptive negotiation.

437
00.26.56,437 --> 00.26.59,702
This is it, that's the boundary, okay.

438
00.26.59,957 --> 00.27.05,060
Only what I specifically said yes to in
the way I agreed to do it.

439
00.27.05,901 --> 00.27.12,386
There's also blanket consent that one can
negotiate, which I advise more for people

440
00.27.12,386 --> 00.27.17,509
that have been playing a long time, that
know each other well, and know how to

441
00.27.17,509 --> 00.27.20,992
communicate any exceptions beforehand.

442
00.27.20,992 --> 00.27.23,833
So, for example, my partner of

443
00.27.24,526 --> 00.27.33,788
14 and some odd months years I might say
to him I feel up to sensation play tonight

444
00.27.34,188 --> 00.27.42,911
and Light impact He knows what kind of
impact I'm okay with and what I'm not He

445
00.27.42,911 --> 00.27.48,352
knows what light means for me because
light medium and hard are different for

446
00.27.48,352 --> 00.27.52,973
every single person on the planet But we
know each other so he knows that and he

447
00.27.52,973 --> 00.27.54,053
knows that

448
00.27.54,306 --> 00.27.58,169
I'll say, but I don't want anything stingy
tonight.

449
00.27.58,169 --> 00.28.01,212
I can't process that sensation tonight.

450
00.28.02,313 --> 00.28.09,099
There's also checklists, which I find to
be an incredibly useful tool in

451
00.28.09,099 --> 00.28.10,380
negotiation.

452
00.28.11,041 --> 00.28.13,783
There are a lot of examples of them
online.

453
00.28.13,783 --> 00.28.21,409
I have one that I've been using since, I
don't know, 2017 or 2010 or so.

454
00.28.21,710 --> 00.28.24,651
the file has been re-saved a number of
times.

455
00.28.24,651 --> 00.28.31,754
But it is a list of a ton of different
activities and things in kink with a yes

456
00.28.31,754 --> 00.28.34,535
you have done this before or no you have
not.

457
00.28.35,315 --> 00.28.40,277
Is it a hard limit, which means we don't
we don't push for we don't talk about it

458
00.28.40,277 --> 00.28.42,458
it's never going to be on the table.

459
00.28.42,458 --> 00.28.46,380
Is it a soft limit, which means it's a
limit for now we aren't going to do it,

460
00.28.46,380 --> 00.28.50,161
but it's possible in the future when
certain conditions have been met we can

461
00.28.50,161 --> 00.28.51,201
revisit it.

462
00.28.51,506 --> 00.28.57,449
Is it something that you really don't want
to do, but aren't necessarily saying it's

463
00.28.57,449 --> 00.28.58,549
a hard limit?

464
00.28.58,790 --> 00.29.03,392
Is it something that you're willing to do
for them, but it doesn't really get you

465
00.29.03,392 --> 00.29.04,313
excited?

466
00.29.04,313 --> 00.29.05,874
Is it something that you love?

467
00.29.05,874 --> 00.29.07,775
Is it something that you want all the
time?

468
00.29.07,775 --> 00.29.11,717
Do you have like a true fetish for it and
that you can't really get fully aroused

469
00.29.11,717 --> 00.29.14,638
without that component in your play?

470
00.29.15,139 --> 00.29.17,380
And then any notes that you have on it.

471
00.29.17,380 --> 00.29.20,241
Like for example, somebody might be
into...

472
00.29.20,438 --> 00.29.27,761
verbal humiliation, but they only want
sexual terms to be called, for example, a

473
00.29.27,761 --> 00.29.29,442
slut or the like.

474
00.29.29,803 --> 00.29.35,466
And I'm sure you're going to probably put
a content warning for that maybe, but they

475
00.29.35,466 --> 00.29.40,588
don't want to have their intelligence
insulted or their appearance or their

476
00.29.40,588 --> 00.29.47,092
hygiene or the like, or to be told that
they're useless, because that would make

477
00.29.47,092 --> 00.29.49,993
them feel bad in a bad way, as opposed
to...

478
00.29.50,018 --> 00.29.56,321
turned on because their, you know, their
arousal is being commented on.

479
00.29.56,481 --> 00.29.59,262
So those notes are really useful.

480
00.29.59,483 --> 00.30.05,766
And going through this checklist, which
everybody involved would be filling out.

481
00.30.05,766 --> 00.30.09,989
People can find the commonalities, find
the things that they definitely shouldn't

482
00.30.09,989 --> 00.30.12,590
do and have a discussion.

483
00.30.12,590 --> 00.30.15,792
Because it's in a way, it's a guided
discussion.

484
00.30.15,792 --> 00.30.18,713
It's a guide to the person, but also a
discussion.

485
00.30.19,174 --> 00.30.23,256
And the thing to remember about a
checklist is that nobody is obligated to

486
00.30.23,256 --> 00.30.29,080
do every single thing on the checklist the
first time or any time just because they

487
00.30.29,080 --> 00.30.30,801
said it's something that they like.

488
00.30.30,801 --> 00.30.36,704
You still want to talk about, okay, here's
this item, this item, and this item.

489
00.30.36,784 --> 00.30.40,646
Are you open to doing those things in this
play session?

490
00.30.40,747 --> 00.30.44,309
Because the other thing about negotiation
is that it isn't a one-and-done thing.

491
00.30.44,309 --> 00.30.45,878
It should be ongoing.

492
00.30.45,878 --> 00.30.50,882
because we are living, breathing beings
and we change, our situation changes, our

493
00.30.50,882 --> 00.30.53,423
health changes, our mental health changes.

494
00.30.53,604 --> 00.30.57,647
So something that I love one day is the
thing that I might not be able to handle

495
00.30.57,647 --> 00.30.58,628
another day.

496
00.30.58,628 --> 00.31.03,652
Even if we agreed to do something on a
certain day, consent can always be

497
00.31.03,652 --> 00.31.04,092
revoked.

498
00.31.04,092 --> 00.31.05,393
That is the law.

499
00.31.07,515 --> 00.31.11,138
And it is also the law in the kink world.

500
00.31.11,498 --> 00.31.14,921
Even in places where it isn't actually the
law, it is the law in the kink world,

501
00.31.14,921 --> 00.31.15,822
consent.

502
00.31.15,822 --> 00.31.21,306
always be revoked and that must be
respected instantly.

503
00.31.21,546 --> 00.31.27,531
So I might say, hey we're going to do a
rope suspension scene on Friday, but when

504
00.31.27,531 --> 00.31.34,757
Friday comes up my shoulder has subluxed
and I can't handle that anymore so I'm

505
00.31.34,757 --> 00.31.35,978
gonna let you know.

506
00.31.37,780 --> 00.31.41,663
Somebody might agree to dominate someone
on a certain day but then they have a

507
00.31.41,663 --> 00.31.45,125
really bad day at work and they're not in
a good headspace.

508
00.31.45,586 --> 00.31.47,127
have somebody else under them.

509
00.31.47,127 --> 00.31.48,367
They're angry.

510
00.31.48,688 --> 00.31.52,851
They're not stable and you don't want to
strike someone when you're really angry.

511
00.31.53,431 --> 00.31.55,933
So they...

512
00.31.57,154 --> 00.32.02,378
limits and boundaries are not just for
people who are submitting or bottoming.

513
00.32.02,678 --> 00.32.07,922
People who are topping, people who are
dominating, they're in just as vulnerable

514
00.32.07,922 --> 00.32.10,164
of a place as the submissive.

515
00.32.10,164 --> 00.32.13,085
They're a full human being with needs.

516
00.32.13,274 --> 00.32.17,135
boundaries and traumas of their own and
that has to be respected.

517
00.32.17,136 --> 00.32.23,559
We can never look at somebody as a kink
dispenser because they're a whole person

518
00.32.23,559 --> 00.32.31,263
and they matter and their needs matter and
their limits matter and I hear people say

519
00.32.31,263 --> 00.32.35,826
often and they I think that they feel that
they're being really enlightened when they

520
00.32.35,826 --> 00.32.41,589
say well the sub has the true power in the
relationship because the Dom isn't

521
00.32.41,589 --> 00.32.43,009
anything without the sub.

522
00.32.43,638 --> 00.32.45,939
or because the sub can always stop it or
whatever.

523
00.32.45,939 --> 00.32.47,420
And I disagree.

524
00.32.47,420 --> 00.32.50,882
I think everyone has the power in the
relationship.

525
00.32.50,882 --> 00.32.56,105
We play roles, we engage in power
exchange, but everyone has the power to

526
00.32.56,105 --> 00.33.01,007
stop it, to say no, to set boundaries, to
say I'm not okay with this.

527
00.33.01,068 --> 00.33.02,208
And they should.

528
00.33.02,529 --> 00.33.07,832
Everyone is being vulnerable by opening
themselves up and doing this.

529
00.33.07,832 --> 00.33.09,752
And that is sacred.

530
00.33.10,633 --> 00.33.11,333
So...

531
00.33.11,686 --> 00.33.16,349
I think that it's important to remember
that, that beyond all of the play and the

532
00.33.16,349 --> 00.33.20,753
roles that we play, which can be very,
very serious, it can mean the world to us,

533
00.33.21,374 --> 00.33.23,635
we're still people, we're human beings.

534
00.33.23,936 --> 00.33.26,277
And that can never be forgotten.

535
00.33.28,955 --> 00.33.35,382
Now, have you mentioned these roles and
you mentioned consent and nobody has truly

536
00.33.35,382 --> 00.33.39,926
more power than anybody else as a result
of consent and negotiation?

537
00.33.40,867 --> 00.33.43,470
That sounds like vanilla relationships
though too.

538
00.33.43,754 --> 00.33.45,854
Well, ideally...

539
00.33.46,594 --> 00.33.54,717
Hahaha Ideally, I think I would like to
say, but it would sound elitist, that

540
00.33.54,717 --> 00.34.00,518
we're a little bit better at it in some
ways because Negotiation and communication

541
00.34.00,518 --> 00.34.01,539
is so vital.

542
00.34.01,539 --> 00.34.06,680
It is absolutely required and I think in
the vanilla world people aren't taught

543
00.34.06,680 --> 00.34.11,166
that as much, although I have a lot of
hope for the younger generation

544
00.34.11,166 --> 00.34.15,347
now because consent culture is becoming a
lot stronger.

545
00.34.16,288 --> 00.34.21,390
But when you're negotiating, you shouldn't
be negotiating from the perspective of a

546
00.34.21,390 --> 00.34.22,870
power dynamic.

547
00.34.22,990 --> 00.34.28,612
You shouldn't be negotiating in a
submissive headspace.

548
00.34.28,953 --> 00.34.33,014
Because when you're in a submissive
headspace, for example, or a dominant

549
00.34.33,014 --> 00.34.35,235
headspace, you're in an altered mind
state.

550
00.34.35,235 --> 00.34.40,890
You've got all of these little brain
chemicals flying around that...

551
00.34.40,890 --> 00.34.43,671
uh, can impair your judgment.

552
00.34.43,971 --> 00.34.49,734
So you need to be of clear and sound mind
and be in a place outside of any dynamic

553
00.34.49,734 --> 00.34.54,197
that you have when you negotiate and
negotiate from a place of personal power

554
00.34.54,197 --> 00.34.59,600
and autonomy and not say yes to things
that you don't really want because you're

555
00.34.59,600 --> 00.35.05,343
worried you might not please someone or be
seem submissive enough because any good

556
00.35.05,343 --> 00.35.08,424
dominant is not going to want to do harm

557
00.35.10,986 --> 00.35.17,829
I'll say even, is not going to want to do
harm, including accidentally because their

558
00.35.17,829 --> 00.35.24,593
partner wasn't honest with themself or
honest with them about what is and isn't

559
00.35.24,593 --> 00.35.25,193
okay.

560
00.35.25,193 --> 00.35.30,276
Like the use of safe words, I would always
tell my clients when I was a professional

561
00.35.30,276 --> 00.35.35,319
dominatrix the only time I will be
disappointed by the use of safe words is

562
00.35.35,319 --> 00.35.37,940
if you don't use one when you need to.

563
00.35.38,521 --> 00.35.40,078
I don't want

564
00.35.40,078 --> 00.35.41,318
cause harm.

565
00.35.42,139 --> 00.35.48,682
Any- anyone, any sub, dom, rope, bottom,
pup, whatever rule you play in the kink

566
00.35.48,682 --> 00.35.52,204
world, you shouldn't be wanting to do real
harm.

567
00.35.52,765 --> 00.35.55,826
We should be keeping things safe from one
another.

568
00.35.55,826 --> 00.36.01,830
We understand that there is a lot of risk,
but we need to make sure that everybody is

569
00.36.01,830 --> 00.36.06,732
actually okay with what's going on, and
that people are safe to play with because

570
00.36.06,732 --> 00.36.09,153
if you won't tell me-

571
00.36.09,182 --> 00.36.13,464
that something is not okay, you're not
safe for me to play with.

572
00.36.13,744 --> 00.36.18,026
You know, it can be really traumatic to
harm someone.

573
00.36.18,647 --> 00.36.26,331
And a person can react to trauma in very
unpredictable ways, even potentially

574
00.36.26,331 --> 00.36.27,972
deadly ways, you know?

575
00.36.27,972 --> 00.36.34,355
If somebody has post-traumatic stress
disorder and they don't tell you about a

576
00.36.34,355 --> 00.36.37,497
serious trauma trigger, it could get you
killed.

577
00.36.37,937 --> 00.36.38,457
I

578
00.36.38,986 --> 00.36.45,550
had a situation where I had blanket
consent from someone to do things and they

579
00.36.45,550 --> 00.36.49,312
didn't tell me that they had almost died
in a house fire.

580
00.36.50,173 --> 00.36.56,998
And I played an old trick called fire and
ice where you tell somebody I'm gonna burn

581
00.36.56,998 --> 00.37.01,741
you and you flick a lighter near their ear
and then you touch an ice cube to their

582
00.37.01,741 --> 00.37.06,705
earlobe and their brain will actually
trick them and it'll feel like heat even

583
00.37.06,705 --> 00.37.08,205
though it's cold.

584
00.37.08,914 --> 00.37.12,014
Um, it's a trick that I had learned when I
was a pro-dom.

585
00.37.12,435 --> 00.37.17,036
And this particular dynamic that I had
with this person, they didn't want to do a

586
00.37.17,036 --> 00.37.18,056
lot of negotiation.

587
00.37.18,056 --> 00.37.18,976
I learned a lot from that.

588
00.37.18,976 --> 00.37.20,137
I will never accept that again.

589
00.37.20,137 --> 00.37.28,039
Uh, but they didn't tell me that they had
trauma from a house fire.

590
00.37.28,099 --> 00.37.33,220
And this was somebody who could bench
press over 600 pounds.

591
00.37.34,180 --> 00.37.38,681
And who was an extremely experienced
martial artist.

592
00.37.39,546 --> 00.37.45,107
and they suddenly stood up, sent me flying
just by standing up so hard, and I looked

593
00.37.45,107 --> 00.37.49,908
at them in the eyes and I realized this
person is not there.

594
00.37.51,049 --> 00.37.55,450
And I am lucky as hell that they went into
the freeze response and not the fight

595
00.37.55,450 --> 00.38.00,631
response because they could have snapped
my neck easily.

596
00.38.00,952 --> 00.38.03,872
They could have just like that could have
ended me.

597
00.38.04,553 --> 00.38.08,333
And this could have become a major
tragedy.

598
00.38.08,342 --> 00.38.15,185
because they didn't want to have the
vulnerability of telling me, yeah, I have

599
00.38.15,646 --> 00.38.16,626
this trauma trigger.

600
00.38.16,626 --> 00.38.22,630
And they didn't want to do the work of
negotiating and talking about what really

601
00.38.22,630 --> 00.38.24,731
was and wasn't okay.

602
00.38.25,151 --> 00.38.30,894
So it's not safe to play with someone who
won't do that.

603
00.38.31,094 --> 00.38.35,397
And it's not really safe to play with
somebody that says, I have no limits

604
00.38.35,717 --> 00.38.36,797
because

605
00.38.37,190 --> 00.38.40,631
You know, we're physical beings, we all
have some kind of a limit.

606
00.38.41,772 --> 00.38.47,515
And if we, uh, don't know what those are,
then it's going to be a real problem when

607
00.38.47,515 --> 00.38.49,276
we find out what they are.

608
00.38.49,276 --> 00.38.53,378
And nobody knows what every single limit
they have is.

609
00.38.53,398 --> 00.38.56,640
Nobody's going to be able to think of
every single limit.

610
00.38.56,640 --> 00.39.03,324
You know, it might not occur to me to say
is stuffing six packages of hot dogs up my

611
00.39.03,324 --> 00.39.07,225
butt is a hard limit, but it is still a
hard...

612
00.39.07,334 --> 00.39.17,060
limit which is why negotiating what is a
yes is still so vital you know never

613
00.39.17,060 --> 00.39.22,803
accept only the hard limits you give me
count as limits and i can do anything else

614
00.39.23,704 --> 00.39.30,968
i highly recommend against accepting that
because you don't know what they might do

615
00.39.31,068 --> 00.39.33,529
and you don't know what you might come up
against

616
00.39.36,776 --> 00.39.42,761
Well, I mean, I think as we explore, as we
grow and as we kind of come into

617
00.39.42,761 --> 00.39.51,708
ourselves, regardless of being, you know,
vanilla monogamy versus full BDSM kink

618
00.39.51,708 --> 00.39.59,555
world or culture, community, I think it
can be so vital to be honest with

619
00.39.59,555 --> 00.40.04,018
ourselves and say, you know what, I don't
know about that.

620
00.40.04,475 --> 00.40.06,255
I need to think about it.

621
00.40.06,295 --> 00.40.13,098
I need to talk to my partner, my scene
partner, what have you, and kind of what

622
00.40.13,098 --> 00.40.21,241
would that thing be like before I can say,
I need, I want, I feel?

623
00.40.22,062 --> 00.40.27,904
Which I've worked with children in the
past in a family program specifically

624
00.40.27,904 --> 00.40.32,266
geared toward children of substance use
disorder patients.

625
00.40.32,586 --> 00.40.33,306
And

626
00.40.33,663 --> 00.40.36,265
often don't have that autonomy voice.

627
00.40.37,386 --> 00.40.44,153
And you know we're talking about autonomy
within the community being able to say I

628
00.40.44,153 --> 00.40.49,378
feel happy when this happens to me and
you're part of it.

629
00.40.50,139 --> 00.40.57,266
Or I feel scared when that happens
regardless of who's a part of it.

630
00.40.57,278 --> 00.40.58,659
Mm-hmm.

631
00.40.58,659 --> 00.40.59,879
Absolutely.

632
00.41.00,180 --> 00.41.10,909
People often are desperate to please, and
sometimes feel as if they need to put

633
00.41.10,909 --> 00.41.16,173
aside their own need and safety in order
to please somebody else, and this is

634
00.41.16,173 --> 00.41.22,118
especially true for certain kinds of
trauma survivors, like I, for example,

635
00.41.22,118 --> 00.41.23,759
have, um,

636
00.41.26,446 --> 00.41.28,146
Traumatic Stress Disorder.

637
00.41.28,406 --> 00.41.31,127
I'm a child trafficking survivor.

638
00.41.31,468 --> 00.41.37,250
And there are four common trauma
responses, trigger responses.

639
00.41.37,250 --> 00.41.41,952
There's, you know, the classic one that
you see a lot with PTSD, which is fight,

640
00.41.41,952 --> 00.41.43,092
flight, or freeze.

641
00.41.43,092 --> 00.41.48,155
But then there's the fourth one, which is
Fawn, which is what I just described,

642
00.41.48,155 --> 00.41.54,517
putting aside your own safety and your own
needs to please or placate somebody else.

643
00.41.54,517 --> 00.41.55,537
It might be...

644
00.41.55,618 --> 00.42.03,202
to quote unquote earn the love of someone,
or it might be to make yourself small and

645
00.42.03,202 --> 00.42.08,205
not offend and not make them angry or not
get yourself punished.

646
00.42.08,205 --> 00.42.13,308
And this can become ingrained
subconsciously in our behavior.

647
00.42.13,308 --> 00.42.18,151
And especially for people who are
submissive, but not just people who are

648
00.42.18,151 --> 00.42.21,633
submissive, we have to learn to really...

649
00.42.22,870 --> 00.42.28,635
First of all, be aware of the fact that we
do have that response to things and really

650
00.42.28,635 --> 00.42.32,798
learn to analyze, is this something that I
want?

651
00.42.32,898 --> 00.42.39,504
Am I giving informed, enthusiastic consent
or am I setting aside my needs and desires

652
00.42.39,504 --> 00.42.44,889
because I feel like I need to say yes to
this in order to be safe or not be

653
00.42.44,889 --> 00.42.48,051
abandoned or be loved or what have you.

654
00.42.48,051 --> 00.42.50,886
And I think that is something that's

655
00.42.50,886 --> 00.42.56,308
very important for a client to feel safe
working with their therapist or the

656
00.42.56,308 --> 00.43.00,690
psychiatrist with to figure out without
being shamed and told all of your

657
00.43.00,690 --> 00.43.03,471
submission is clearly just a trauma
response.

658
00.43.03,471 --> 00.43.08,253
That might be the case for some people but
usually not, I would say.

659
00.43.08,353 --> 00.43.12,775
I had submissive urges long before my
trauma happened.

660
00.43.13,435 --> 00.43.19,737
It did get complicated by my trauma and by
having the Fawn response.

661
00.43.19,826 --> 00.43.24,589
And I once had a client who was a mental
health professional who worked with

662
00.43.24,589 --> 00.43.29,352
disturbed children, who explained to me
what the Fawn response was.

663
00.43.29,593 --> 00.43.33,576
And it, my world fell apart and came back
together again.

664
00.43.33,576 --> 00.43.39,340
And it opened my eyes to so much,
including why I ended up in a lot of

665
00.43.39,340 --> 00.43.44,343
unhealthy dynamics or dynamics that became
unhealthy, even though that wasn't

666
00.43.44,343 --> 00.43.47,545
anybody's intent because

667
00.43.48,318 --> 00.43.53,299
I wasn't able to step back and analyze and
differentiate between submission and

668
00.43.53,299 --> 00.43.54,359
fawning.

669
00.43.55,340 --> 00.44.04,162
But I think that if I had a psychologist
who did understand the fawn response and

670
00.44.04,162 --> 00.44.10,644
did understand that submission was not
that, but that it can muddy the waters, I

671
00.44.10,644 --> 00.44.12,505
could have avoided a lot of pain.

672
00.44.12,785 --> 00.44.15,371
I could have avoided a lot of suffering.

673
00.44.15,371 --> 00.44.16,250
That sounds it.

674
00.44.16,250 --> 00.44.24,474
if I could have talked to somebody and
realized that my own safety was not the

675
00.44.24,474 --> 00.44.29,937
price I had to pay, like my lack of safety
from someone was not the price I had to

676
00.44.29,937 --> 00.44.38,422
pay to be with them, to get what I needed
as a submissive, to be safe from others.

677
00.44.38,642 --> 00.44.41,604
And for a long time, that's what I
thought.

678
00.44.41,604 --> 00.44.44,482
I thought that I had to be unsafe from
someone.

679
00.44.44,482 --> 00.44.46,402
to be safe from everybody else.

680
00.44.46,402 --> 00.44.52,765
I thought that I had to be unsafe from
someone to be able to engage in a dominant

681
00.44.52,765 --> 00.45.00,429
and submissive dynamic that is a vital
part of me, something that emotionally I

682
00.45.00,429 --> 00.45.04,190
need to have to have balance in my life.

683
00.45.04,651 --> 00.45.11,053
So learning about that fun response and
realizing that a healthy...

684
00.45.11,190 --> 00.45.16,234
BDSM relationship is one where you can
say, I don't really want to do that.

685
00.45.16,234 --> 00.45.17,995
I'm not comfortable with that.

686
00.45.17,995 --> 00.45.19,936
I don't feel safe with that.

687
00.45.19,997 --> 00.45.23,459
I feel like that's actually harmful to me.

688
00.45.23,600 --> 00.45.28,003
And knowing that the person that you're
with, if they deserve to be with you, is

689
00.45.28,003 --> 00.45.29,644
going to respect that.

690
00.45.30,265 --> 00.45.36,230
And thank you for letting them know, as
opposed to getting offended or huffy or

691
00.45.36,510 --> 00.45.40,573
threatening to leave you or using any
other sort of coercion.

692
00.45.41,110 --> 00.45.47,376
Because again, the heart of dominance is
consent and coercion, emotional blackmail,

693
00.45.47,376 --> 00.45.48,376
fear.

694
00.45.48,757 --> 00.45.53,822
Those prevent somebody from being able to
give enthusiastic consent because it's no

695
00.45.53,822 --> 00.45.58,025
longer consent, it's placating, it's
protecting yourself.

696
00.46.00,987 --> 00.46.05,369
Now, one of the things that I'm working
through right now, I'm working through a

697
00.46.05,369 --> 00.46.12,633
certification program to assess and treat
sexual issues in straight psychotherapy.

698
00.46.12,753 --> 00.46.21,478
Not specifically sex therapy, but working
within sexual issues within a typical

699
00.46.21,478 --> 00.46.24,539
individual or couples relationship
therapy.

700
00.46.24,980 --> 00.46.29,002
And willingness is like one of the first
things that we assess for.

701
00.46.29,451 --> 00.46.30,177
Yeah.

702
00.46.30,291 --> 00.46.34,752
You know, you pull the couple, you know,
might be a married couple, might be play

703
00.46.34,752 --> 00.46.36,212
partners, whatever.

704
00.46.36,412 --> 00.46.41,874
Nowadays, a couple in therapy is a couple
in therapy, regardless of who defines the

705
00.46.41,874 --> 00.46.43,274
couple and what it is.

706
00.46.43,775 --> 00.46.49,056
And the first question is, you know, when
we go through an assessment, you know,

707
00.46.49,056 --> 00.46.50,377
tell us about the willingness.

708
00.46.50,377 --> 00.46.52,597
Is this something you both want?

709
00.46.53,878 --> 00.46.56,918
And sometimes we don't ask those
questions.

710
00.46.57,171 --> 00.47.01,852
when they're both in the room together,
because that might put somebody at an

711
00.47.01,852 --> 00.47.04,012
inordinate amount of safety risk.

712
00.47.06,373 --> 00.47.11,495
And I also touch base with folks when I'm
working with couples on, are we on the

713
00.47.11,495 --> 00.47.17,656
same page in terms of, are we looking at
breaking this relationship, whether it's

714
00.47.17,656 --> 00.47.21,077
divorce, separation, the laws involved or
not?

715
00.47.23,038 --> 00.47.25,223
And is there any violence going on?

716
00.47.25,223 --> 00.47.28,505
any non-consensual violence going on.

717
00.47.28,505 --> 00.47.33,328
And I wanna specify that it's, you know,
we're not talking impact play or breath

718
00.47.33,328 --> 00.47.40,993
play or anything edge to the point where,
you know, if that's going on, a lot of

719
00.47.40,993 --> 00.47.44,376
therapists will say that is what we call
contraindicated.

720
00.47.44,376 --> 00.47.49,659
That's like mixing two volatile
combination of drugs together and saying,

721
00.47.49,879 --> 00.47.51,981
well, there might be complications.

722
00.47.51,981 --> 00.47.53,682
We might have an emergency room visit.

723
00.47.53,682 --> 00.47.54,902
We don't want that.

724
00.47.56,059 --> 00.48.00,642
We want to protect all parties involved.

725
00.48.01,844 --> 00.48.07,269
And it is not outside the realm of
possibility, where I may have multiple

726
00.48.07,269 --> 00.48.12,493
people in different forms of, whether it's
a polycule or constellation.

727
00.48.14,295 --> 00.48.18,939
We all have a part in what the play and
what the relationships were, not

728
00.48.18,939 --> 00.48.22,802
everything's a relationship I even
recognize, look like.

729
00.48.23,339 --> 00.48.23,979
Absolutely.

730
00.48.23,979 --> 00.48.27,382
I mean, polyamory, I'm, I'm polyamorous.

731
00.48.27,382 --> 00.48.35,066
I've been polyamorous, uh, actively since
probably also in 1997, I suppose.

732
00.48.35,066 --> 00.48.39,389
But to me, it's an orientation on a
spectrum.

733
00.48.39,389 --> 00.48.41,450
There are people that are fully
monogamous.

734
00.48.41,450 --> 00.48.44,472
There are people that are incredibly
polyamorous.

735
00.48.44,472 --> 00.48.46,773
There are people that can go either way.

736
00.48.47,438 --> 00.48.51,760
I'm much further on the fully polyamorous
side.

737
00.48.51,760 --> 00.48.55,562
I don't feel complete without multiple
partners.

738
00.48.55,562 --> 00.48.59,244
It doesn't mean that I love my partner
less than a monogamous person would.

739
00.48.59,244 --> 00.49.01,606
That's not what it's about.

740
00.49.01,606 --> 00.49.03,367
I don't see love as a finite resource.

741
00.49.03,367 --> 00.49.05,408
Time is a finite resource.

742
00.49.05,488 --> 00.49.11,531
I mean, Google Calendar is the holy grail
of polyamorous people.

743
00.49.15,890 --> 00.49.19,492
You know, if you have a child and you have
a second child, you don't stop loving the

744
00.49.19,492 --> 00.49.24,795
first child or, and it doesn't mean you
love or want the first child less.

745
00.49.26,657 --> 00.49.30,379
And consent is important in polyamory as
well.

746
00.49.30,660 --> 00.49.36,624
Something that people don't realize is
that, you know, ethical non-monogamy is

747
00.49.36,624 --> 00.49.42,207
not cheating when everybody consents to
it, but non-monogamous people can cheat.

748
00.49.43,008 --> 00.49.45,889
When they have an agreement.

749
00.49.46,478 --> 00.49.51,801
to let their partners know that they're
getting involved with somebody else or

750
00.49.51,801 --> 00.49.56,104
getting their partner's consent to get
involved with somebody else and they don't

751
00.49.56,104 --> 00.49.57,545
do that, they're cheating.

752
00.49.57,545 --> 00.50.00,907
Cheating can happen when you're when
you're poly as well.

753
00.50.00,988 --> 00.50.02,889
I learned that lesson when I was young.

754
00.50.02,889 --> 00.50.09,934
I got involved with somebody I knew that
his partner was polyamorous.

755
00.50.09,934 --> 00.50.12,956
I knew that he had a second partner.

756
00.50.13,076 --> 00.50.14,197
I thought they knew.

757
00.50.14,257 --> 00.50.15,317
They didn't know.

758
00.50.15,650 --> 00.50.18,031
They didn't know at all, they didn't
consent to it at all.

759
00.50.18,651 --> 00.50.23,894
So I always check with people's other
partners.

760
00.50.23,894 --> 00.50.30,337
And it's kind of crazy to me how surprised
they often are.

761
00.50.30,578 --> 00.50.37,381
Like I have talked to a dominant subs or
master slaves and said, hey, he and I have

762
00.50.37,381 --> 00.50.41,723
been talking, we've been considering maybe
getting involved or playing.

763
00.50.41,764 --> 00.50.45,126
I wanted to check in with you and make
sure that

764
00.50.45,126 --> 00.50.48,668
that you feel comfortable with that, see
if you have any questions, make sure

765
00.50.48,668 --> 00.50.54,253
you're okay with that, and I've had them
say, nobody's ever asked me before.

766
00.50.55,034 --> 00.51.00,698
And that's, I think that might happen more
when it's, there's a power dynamic

767
00.51.00,698 --> 00.51.05,722
involved, where one person is in a
dominant position and the other one is

768
00.51.05,722 --> 00.51.08,624
submissive or a master and a slave
position.

769
00.51.08,624 --> 00.51.10,105
Some people would even...

770
00.51.10,946 --> 00.51.16,571
I recognize some people would feel
insulted by that and say, I don't own my

771
00.51.16,571 --> 00.51.17,111
partner.

772
00.51.17,111 --> 00.51.19,073
Why are you asking me?

773
00.51.19,573 --> 00.51.22,316
And I trust my partner and I understand
it.

774
00.51.22,316 --> 00.51.22,956
I respect that.

775
00.51.22,956 --> 00.51.30,563
But because I have experienced people who
didn't get consent from their partners and

776
00.51.30,563 --> 00.51.36,788
their partners weren't okay with it, I
have a blanket policy of, of checking in

777
00.51.36,788 --> 00.51.38,742
and making sure that there's consent.

778
00.51.38,742 --> 00.51.43,885
And I make it a blanket policy with
everybody to keep it fair to- I let people

779
00.51.43,885 --> 00.51.46,667
know, you're not being singled out.

780
00.51.47,087 --> 00.51.48,889
I always do this.

781
00.51.48,889 --> 00.51.50,570
I always check.

782
00.51.50,950 --> 00.51.55,734
Because things have been wrong and people
have been harmed when I didn't.

783
00.51.55,734 --> 00.52.00,256
So I'm not saying that you or your partner
isn't trustworthy.

784
00.52.00,477 --> 00.52.05,901
I'm saying this is something that I always
do to keep it fair.

785
00.52.06,221 --> 00.52.07,101
And-

786
00.52.08,226 --> 00.52.15,512
Polyamory definitely can make things more
complex, more relationships that you add,

787
00.52.15,512 --> 00.52.20,536
the more complex it can be, of course, you
know, because you have more people who can

788
00.52.20,536 --> 00.52.22,717
communicate or miscommunicate.

789
00.52.23,318 --> 00.52.27,041
So again, negotiation and communication is
vital.

790
00.52.27,041 --> 00.52.31,125
And there are so many different ways to be
non-monogamous.

791
00.52.31,125 --> 00.52.37,409
There are hierarchical models of polyamory
where people have a primary partner.

792
00.52.37,934 --> 00.52.42,897
and a secondary partner and I think
ideally in those situations the secondary

793
00.52.42,897 --> 00.52.47,040
partners have their own primary partners
so everybody feels their needs are met

794
00.52.47,040 --> 00.52.51,803
nobody feels like a third wheel of course
Relationships don't always work out that

795
00.52.51,803 --> 00.52.56,127
way people aren't always all dating the
people they want me to date at the same

796
00.52.56,127 --> 00.53.02,691
time Uh, so it can get tricky Making sure
everybody feels that their needs are met

797
00.53.02,691 --> 00.53.06,293
and feels fulfilled but

798
00.53.06,358 --> 00.53.10,139
There's also this wonderful thing that
polyamorous people can experience called

799
00.53.10,139 --> 00.53.13,260
compersion, where we...

800
00.53.13,601 --> 00.53.17,322
yeah, we see our partner happy with
someone who's treating them well and it

801
00.53.17,322 --> 00.53.20,224
makes us happy to see them happy.

802
00.53.20,224 --> 00.53.25,786
We are also not saints, so we can still
feel insecure, we can still maybe feel

803
00.53.25,786 --> 00.53.27,927
envy or perhaps a bit of jealousy.

804
00.53.27,927 --> 00.53.29,488
Some people don't.

805
00.53.29,608 --> 00.53.33,209
Some people don't feel those things, like,
ever, really.

806
00.53.33,630 --> 00.53.37,032
That's just the way some people are wired,
but a lot of people do a lot of people

807
00.53.37,032 --> 00.53.44,057
need reassurance A lot of people need to
learn to respect the boundaries of the

808
00.53.44,057 --> 00.53.49,300
other relationships and the other partners
Some some I think I see sometimes people

809
00.53.49,300 --> 00.53.57,826
getting really controlling With somebody's
other relationships and I think that can

810
00.53.57,826 --> 00.54.03,009
make it difficult for them to grow so you
have to kind of balance Okay

811
00.54.04,126 --> 00.54.05,566
We have boundaries and limits.

812
00.54.05,566 --> 00.54.07,567
Everybody has boundaries and limits.

813
00.54.07,707 --> 00.54.13,930
Uh, and that's reasonable, but is it fair
to bring in another person if we have

814
00.54.14,230 --> 00.54.20,993
these, like this much of a limit on them,
what happens if there's a boundary you

815
00.54.20,993 --> 00.54.24,875
can't feel this emotion for this person?

816
00.54.25,055 --> 00.54.28,777
Well, how do you control feeling an
emotion for that person?

817
00.54.28,777 --> 00.54.31,117
Are you really ready for polyamory?

818
00.54.32,022 --> 00.54.33,723
if that's the case.

819
00.54.33,723 --> 00.54.38,445
What do you do if somebody catches feels,
as they put it?

820
00.54.38,445 --> 00.54.41,647
What do you do if an emotional bond forms?

821
00.54.41,647 --> 00.54.45,049
So these are things that people really
need to discuss.

822
00.54.45,049 --> 00.54.51,472
I hear about, I hear from monogamous
people a lot, a complaint about one

823
00.54.51,472 --> 00.54.58,776
partner wanting to open up a marriage, for
example, and just basically just forcing

824
00.54.58,776 --> 00.55.00,057
it on them.

825
00.55.00,617 --> 00.55.01,377
And

826
00.55.01,510 --> 00.55.07,114
not really discussing anything and not
really making it a choice and not really

827
00.55.07,114 --> 00.55.11,117
making sure that this is something that
the other person wants.

828
00.55.11,237 --> 00.55.14,139
You can't change somebody's orientation.

829
00.55.14,139 --> 00.55.19,103
You might have a partner that could go
either way, monogamous or polyamorous.

830
00.55.19,103 --> 00.55.23,146
That's different from having a partner
that's monogamous that you try to force

831
00.55.23,146 --> 00.55.27,289
that on, or having a partner that's
polyamorous that you try to force monogamy

832
00.55.27,289 --> 00.55.27,850
on.

833
00.55.27,850 --> 00.55.32,813
you get somebody is going to feel
miserable and not safe and like their

834
00.55.32,813 --> 00.55.36,235
needs are not being met and they're not
being hurt.

835
00.55.36,336 --> 00.55.40,939
And neither monogamy or polyamory is
superior to the other.

836
00.55.40,939 --> 00.55.46,643
It's just the way people are wired with a
number of different relationship

837
00.55.46,643 --> 00.55.51,906
frameworks that might be worked with and
different cultures.

838
00.55.51,906 --> 00.55.56,031
I mean, we are in a monogamous culture in
this country.

839
00.55.56,031 --> 00.55.57,652
really are.

840
00.55.57,652 --> 00.56.00,734
So I'll follow a question on that.

841
00.56.00,774 --> 00.56.12,104
If polyamory, regardless of the form, is
an orientation, and yet in the past 50

842
00.56.12,104 --> 00.56.21,972
years or so, we've seen people kind of
hide their own sexual orientation, gender

843
00.56.21,972 --> 00.56.23,673
identity, and things like that,

844
00.56.26,335 --> 00.56.30,899
realizing, I hate to use the word phrase,
coming to terms with, but eventually

845
00.56.30,899 --> 00.56.34,041
realizing their identity, their sexual
orientation.

846
00.56.35,844 --> 00.56.39,167
How would the parallel of that happen
within poly...

847
00.56.39,167 --> 00.56.45,632
I mean, there are some people that may
fight to the death over, I'm monogamous.

848
00.56.45,893 --> 00.56.47,034
I'm monogamous.

849
00.56.47,815 --> 00.56.51,738
And then, you know, holy crap, maybe I'm
not.

850
00.56.51,986 --> 00.56.55,408
I've seen a lot of tragedy happen because
of that.

851
00.56.55,408 --> 00.57.00,892
I have seen, number one, a lot of cheating
happen because of that.

852
00.57.01,192 --> 00.57.07,337
I've seen people decide, well, no, I'm
just going to live a monogamous lifestyle.

853
00.57.07,337 --> 00.57.10,418
And I've seen them suffer and be
miserable.

854
00.57.10,459 --> 00.57.17,524
The real tragedy is that because we're in
a culture where, by and large, monogamy is

855
00.57.17,524 --> 00.57.19,945
the only acceptable true real...

856
00.57.20,186 --> 00.57.27,991
sacred, holy, right way to love and live
according to, you know, the social mores

857
00.57.27,991 --> 00.57.28,731
here.

858
00.57.28,751 --> 00.57.31,113
People don't even consider it.

859
00.57.31,213 --> 00.57.37,837
They don't come to realize it for a long
time, and that in that time they might be

860
00.57.37,837 --> 00.57.43,541
in a long-term committed relationship with
somebody who's monogamous, which means

861
00.57.43,541 --> 00.57.48,545
either somebody's gonna live an
unfulfilled miserable life where they

862
00.57.48,545 --> 00.57.50,065
can't be who they are.

863
00.57.50,282 --> 00.57.56,304
like a gay man in a straight marriage or
somebody's gonna have their heart broken

864
00.57.56,304 --> 00.57.57,344
real bad.

865
00.57.58,045 --> 00.58.03,587
And that is such a damn tragedy and I
don't think we're gonna get away from that

866
00.58.03,587 --> 00.58.08,589
fully ever because it takes people time to
learn about themselves sometimes.

867
00.58.08,589 --> 00.58.16,072
We don't all just like turn 18 and oh look
I'm a bisexual switch who's polyamorous.

868
00.58.16,072 --> 00.58.17,333
They gave me a card.

869
00.58.17,333 --> 00.58.18,373
Now I know.

870
00.58.18,613 --> 00.58.19,373
You know?

871
00.58.19,922 --> 00.58.26,647
But if we can normalize the fact that this
is an orientation that there are a lot of

872
00.58.26,647 --> 00.58.32,432
people who aren't actually monogamous and
that that's okay, and there's a way to do

873
00.58.32,432 --> 00.58.38,356
this that is ethical, that is, you know,
that can become a sacred thing if it's a,

874
00.58.38,357 --> 00.58.41,399
if it's, you know, your religion has
something to say about it.

875
00.58.41,399 --> 00.58.45,643
I mean, like, for example, Christianity,
if you look at the Bible, there are a lot

876
00.58.45,643 --> 00.58.47,784
of dudes with lots of wives.

877
00.58.47,985 --> 00.58.49,525
So, I mean, it's not like...

878
00.58.49,662 --> 00.58.51,543
It was never heard of before.

879
00.58.51,543 --> 00.58.59,229
Um, uh, but you know, we're at a very
Puritan, um, society here still.

880
00.58.59,809 --> 00.59.06,555
That, uh, you know, the fact that we had
so many Puritans settling here originally

881
00.59.06,555 --> 00.59.12,019
at that, that shockwave is still rippling
along and people are resistant to change

882
00.59.12,019 --> 00.59.15,841
because the unknown is the scariest thing
a human can confront.

883
00.59.16,779 --> 00.59.22,189
We want to feel like we understand and are
in power and in control and you can't do

884
00.59.22,189 --> 00.59.23,610
that with the unknown.

885
00.59.24,172 --> 00.59.26,616
So that's a really scary thing.

886
00.59.29,830 --> 00.59.36,112
if we can tell people it's normal to love
more than one person.

887
00.59.36,112 --> 00.59.38,513
It's normal to only love one person your
entire life.

888
00.59.38,513 --> 00.59.42,495
It's also normal to love more than one
person at the same time.

889
00.59.42,995 --> 00.59.53,719
And if people can know that and accept
that earlier in life and feel safe to

890
00.59.53,719 --> 00.59.57,941
really look at themselves and explore that
and realize that there isn't something

891
00.59.57,941 --> 00.59.59,061
wrong with them.

892
00.59.59,150 --> 01.00.00,010
feeling that way.

893
01.00.00,010 --> 01.00.03,911
I think it could save people from a lot of
suffering as well.

894
01.00.03,911 --> 01.00.06,612
That you don't have to hide in the dark.

895
01.00.06,612 --> 01.00.08,612
You can come out into the light with this.

896
01.00.08,612 --> 01.00.10,493
You can be honest with yourself about it.

897
01.00.10,493 --> 01.00.11,993
You can be honest with others about it.

898
01.00.11,993 --> 01.00.14,314
There are so many more people like that.

899
01.00.14,314 --> 01.00.16,814
And actually, I can say the same for Kink.

900
01.00.17,595 --> 01.00.23,736
When I was a professional dominatrix, I
was an unlicensed therapist, like, at

901
01.00.23,736 --> 01.00.27,950
least half the time, because a lot of my
clients didn't feel safe.

902
01.00.27,950 --> 01.00.31,991
telling their own therapist if they even
felt safe going to one because, you know,

903
01.00.31,991 --> 01.00.36,792
a lot of the older generation really
powerful men that I saw, you know, a

904
01.00.36,792 --> 01.00.41,754
politician, a district attorney, what have
you, they didn't feel safe going to a

905
01.00.41,754 --> 01.00.42,774
shrink at all.

906
01.00.42,774 --> 01.00.46,515
Thankfully, that's changing and people are
starting to realize that mental health

907
01.00.46,515 --> 01.00.49,076
care is health care and health care is
important.

908
01.00.49,836 --> 01.00.53,617
But a lot of people.

909
01.00.54,030 --> 01.00.57,893
believed that they were sick and that
something was wrong with them and that

910
01.00.57,893 --> 01.01.03,599
they weren't safe talking to their mental
health professional about these urges that

911
01.01.03,599 --> 01.01.09,824
they had and about these this orientation
that they had for fear of being judged,

912
01.01.09,824 --> 01.01.13,127
told that they were sick, wrong, bad, etc.

913
01.01.13,127 --> 01.01.18,152
So like I had people tell me about stuff
from their past and I was the only one

914
01.01.18,152 --> 01.01.20,213
they had ever told in their life.

915
01.01.21,759 --> 01.01.24,404
But them sharing that with you is huge.

916
01.01.24,426 --> 01.01.26,772
Just saying it out to the universe.

917
01.01.26,772 --> 01.01.30,535
and at least I was in a place where I
could say, you're not sick.

918
01.01.30,535 --> 01.01.32,256
There's nothing wrong with you.

919
01.01.32,256 --> 01.01.37,339
Human sexuality is as diverse as humanity
itself.

920
01.01.37,440 --> 01.01.40,062
It is so normal, you know?

921
01.01.40,062 --> 01.01.46,647
We are incredibly imaginative creatures
that seek constant stimulation and growth,

922
01.01.46,647 --> 01.01.46,827
you know?

923
01.01.46,827 --> 01.01.50,530
We wouldn't have invented all of this cool
shit if-

924
01.01.50,530 --> 01.01.56,472
we didn't seek constant stimulation and
growth, if we didn't have an imagination.

925
01.01.56,472 --> 01.02.01,334
And so much of kink is just, you know,
having this imagination, having these

926
01.02.01,334 --> 01.02.02,715
fantasies, you know?

927
01.02.03,595 --> 01.02.05,976
And I do think it's not just nurture.

928
01.02.05,976 --> 01.02.07,917
I think it is also nature.

929
01.02.07,917 --> 01.02.12,079
I think that kinkiness is also an
orientation.

930
01.02.13,079 --> 01.02.15,580
It goes in like 20 different dimensions.

931
01.02.15,580 --> 01.02.18,701
I don't think you could exactly chart it,
but...

932
01.02.19,274 --> 01.02.20,535
There's just so many things.

933
01.02.20,535 --> 01.02.26,879
I, you know, I have seen somebody have a
fetish for marching band uniforms and

934
01.02.26,879 --> 01.02.30,101
getting eggs thrown at them while they
marched in a circle.

935
01.02.30,162 --> 01.02.31,583
And, and I've thought about that.

936
01.02.31,583 --> 01.02.37,567
And I thought, you know, like I had lots
of kinky urges, even as a toddler, I had

937
01.02.37,567 --> 01.02.40,410
fantasies, you know, it's always been with
me.

938
01.02.40,410 --> 01.02.42,431
This is who and what I am.

939
01.02.42,591 --> 01.02.45,726
And I thought this person, if they had
lived

940
01.02.45,726 --> 01.02.50,530
in a society where eggs weren't readily
available but ripe fruit was, would they

941
01.02.50,530 --> 01.02.53,132
instead like to get pelted with ripe
fruit?

942
01.02.53,433 --> 01.02.57,998
If there were soldiers and no marching
bands, would they have a thing for soldier

943
01.02.57,998 --> 01.03.04,084
uniforms instead, or would they have grown
up feeling unfulfilled but not knowing

944
01.03.04,084 --> 01.03.04,964
why?

945
01.03.06,586 --> 01.03.09,269
You know, I wonder things like that,
right?

946
01.03.09,269 --> 01.03.09,909
But...

947
01.03.10,388 --> 01.03.15,131
And that's really what's important is
we're looking for fulfillment, for

948
01.03.15,131 --> 01.03.17,493
healing, for connection.

949
01.03.18,332 --> 01.03.20,814
And healing can be huge.

950
01.03.20,814 --> 01.03.26,638
Like, my Dom is not my psychologist, but
the things that we do can be in their own

951
01.03.26,638 --> 01.03.29,820
way therapeutic and empowering.

952
01.03.29,820 --> 01.03.36,164
If I engage in consensual non-consent
play, then that might be a way for me to

953
01.03.36,164 --> 01.03.38,385
take back my own power.

954
01.03.38,618 --> 01.03.40,979
and take something and make it mine.

955
01.03.40,979 --> 01.03.45,160
It is not the same, CNC is not the same as
actually being assaulted.

956
01.03.45,160 --> 01.03.49,382
You're still role-playing, there's still
consent in there.

957
01.03.49,382 --> 01.03.54,164
There's always, under all of that
framework, under all of the bones, under

958
01.03.54,164 --> 01.03.58,546
all of the trappings, there's still that
consent and that makes it different.

959
01.03.59,166 --> 01.04.05,529
But, um, you could even call it exposure
therapy in a way, I suppose.

960
01.04.07,819 --> 01.04.13,301
I'm not sure if I'd call it in vivo or
real life because we understand that it's

961
01.04.13,301 --> 01.04.15,962
a bit of role play of sorts.

962
01.04.16,623 --> 01.04.22,125
But absolutely, I would put it under
exposure therapy, beyond just

963
01.04.22,125 --> 01.04.23,446
visualization.

964
01.04.23,746 --> 01.04.25,627
I could agree with that.

965
01.04.27,107 --> 01.04.30,389
So we are unfortunately out of time.

966
01.04.30,389 --> 01.04.32,069
We've just been rocking along.

967
01.04.32,069 --> 01.04.34,194
oh well, yeah, it's uh, yeah.

968
01.04.35,507 --> 01.04.39,752
You've not been watching the time, which
is wonderful.

969
01.04.39,772 --> 01.04.42,976
It's kind of let things take its own
course.

970
01.04.44,218 --> 01.04.49,686
Any last words for me or for our listeners
that you want us to kind of hold onto for

971
01.04.49,686 --> 01.04.50,298
a week?

972
01.04.50,298 --> 01.04.50,962
Um...

973
01.04.53,354 --> 01.04.58,563
It's okay for you to want what you want,
as long as everyone is able to give

974
01.04.58,563 --> 01.05.01,067
informed, enthusiastic consent.

975
01.05.01,709 --> 01.05.06,918
Be honest with yourself, and know that
there is a place for you in the world.

976
01.05.08,836 --> 01.05.10,901
A place for you in the world.

977
01.05.13,599 --> 01.05.15,820
Wonderful words, wonderful words.

978
01.05.16,400 --> 01.05.17,681
I've appreciated your time.

979
01.05.17,681 --> 01.05.20,402
Thank you so much for joining me this
afternoon.

980
01.05.20,883 --> 01.05.23,765
Please continue to be safe and stay
informed.

981
01.05.23,765 --> 01.05.25,465
I don't need to tell you that.

982
01.05.26,486 --> 01.05.31,950
Your words have been, you're gonna give me
a lot to think about this week as I work

983
01.05.31,950 --> 01.05.33,091
with my clients.

984
01.05.33,091 --> 01.05.36,193
I'm so very glad and I have a lot to think
about too.

985
01.05.36,193 --> 01.05.41,396
And that's the best outcome, I think, if
we can all learn and grow from each other.

986
01.05.41,476 --> 01.05.46,059
And sometimes teaching is the best way to
learn too, right?

987
01.05.47,420 --> 01.05.51,683
So thank you for giving me a space to talk
about these things.

988
01.05.51,683 --> 01.05.56,185
And I really hope that I can be helpful to
someone else in doing so.

989
01.05.57,243 --> 01.06.01,373
I know you have been to me and I can think
of a few folks who would really benefit

990
01.06.01,373 --> 01.06.02,335
from our time today.

991
01.06.02,335 --> 01.06.03,112
So thank you.

992
01.06.03,112 --> 01.06.06,500
you so much and you have a wonderful day
and stay safe out there.

993
01.06.07,524 --> 01.06.08,847
Okay, bye-bye.