Have you ever felt the piercing pang of not quite fitting in, or the ache of yearning for genuine belonging? Our latest series plunges into Brené Brown's "Braving the Wilderness," where we uncover the emotional landscapes of authenticity versus fitting in. This isn't your average self-discovery spiel – it's an invitation to join us in the wild terrains of personal anecdotes, the wisdom of Maya Angelou, and the humor of "resting Brad face" as we navigate the complexities of self-belonging and societal expectations.
As we peel back the layers of what it means to be true to ourselves, we confront the 'us versus them' mentality and the craving to belong without sacrificing our realness, freedom, or power. This episode isn't about easy answers; it's about engaging in the difficult conversations, seeking joy, sharing pain, and cultivating the curiosity that keeps us from becoming defensive. Our dialogue is enriched by the profound insights of Brené Brown, who champions authenticity through her principles of genuine connection, civil truth-speaking, community building, and the balance of strength with compassion.
Finally, we grapple with the paradox of self-perception – are we as good as we think, even when our actions suggest otherwise? This conversation offers a fresh perspective on the duality of our nature, and how embracing this complexity can lead us toward true belonging. We leave you with a thought to carry into the next episode: is lonesomeness the precursor to understanding belonging, or is it the belonging that soothes our solitudes? Join us as we continue to pull at these threads in search of our true place in the wilderness.
Have you ever felt the piercing pang of not quite fitting in, or the ache of yearning for genuine belonging? Our latest series plunges into Brené Brown's "Braving the Wilderness," where we uncover the emotional landscapes of authenticity versus fitting in. This isn't your average self-discovery spiel – it's an invitation to join us in the wild terrains of personal anecdotes, the wisdom of Maya Angelou, and the humor of "resting Brad face" as we navigate the complexities of self-belonging and societal expectations.
As we peel back the layers of what it means to be true to ourselves, we confront the 'us versus them' mentality and the craving to belong without sacrificing our realness, freedom, or power. This episode isn't about easy answers; it's about engaging in the difficult conversations, seeking joy, sharing pain, and cultivating the curiosity that keeps us from becoming defensive. Our dialogue is enriched by the profound insights of Brené Brown, who champions authenticity through her principles of genuine connection, civil truth-speaking, community building, and the balance of strength with compassion.
Finally, we grapple with the paradox of self-perception – are we as good as we think, even when our actions suggest otherwise? This conversation offers a fresh perspective on the duality of our nature, and how embracing this complexity can lead us toward true belonging. We leave you with a thought to carry into the next episode: is lonesomeness the precursor to understanding belonging, or is it the belonging that soothes our solitudes? Join us as we continue to pull at these threads in search of our true place in the wilderness.
Welcome to another episode of Terribly Unblivious. Today's topic is part one of a three-part series on Braving the Wilderness by Brene Brown. Brene is a researcher and storyteller who spent two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame and empathy. In this book, she's on a journey to discover true belonging what it is and how do we get there. In part one, we discuss the differences between belonging and fitting in, what Brene means by the wilderness and how using vulnerability and courage can help you to show up authentically. We discuss feeling binded by fear and disdain rather than common humanity, the skills needed to survive in the wilderness, and ends with us getting to an explicit definition of true belonging. Buckle up, because this trek into the wilderness is just getting started. Please enjoy Braving the Wilderness. Part one belonging or fitting in Yep.
Brad:I said it before and I'll say it again Life moves pretty fast, you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
Dylan:All right, we're live. No, episode 10. Again, live. Again. We've definitely done more than 10, but nothing that well. I guess nothing we've done to this point is what I would call substantial quality. But we, you know, we can dream and we can hope.
Brad:We keep working towards something that doesn't suck, so if you don't find it in this one, just wait longer. It's not bad advice.
Dylan:We'll get there eventually. So we had an episode, we had a sorry a discussion about episodes offline which was pulling some threads we have discussed in previous episodes. We have. We have gone over a wide variety of kind of some broad top topics and or resources, today's episode being more about a particular resource, the book Braving the Wilderness by Brene Brown. We touched on it, I think, in a bunch of episodes Balance, and then what? Yeah, it's definitely been a couple episodes.
Brad:It's been a couple of first ones and we kind of forgot we didn't do it proper.
Dylan:We didn't Take on this, and it deserves more.
Brad:Also, can we talk about how I found this book, Because when I when I received it from, I remember when you found it online. Shannon goes oh, oh, you're reading a Brene Brown book.
Dylan:I was like oh, you know her, she's like yeah, she's super popular.
Brad:I was like oh okay, I thought this was about being outdoors, and it's not Balto, it's not anything like that. It is about wilderness, but not the outdoors, whoopsie. And yet I overall really enjoyed this book. I think it touches on a lot of things that we have talked about and want to continue to talk about, and it gets at the heart of a couple of big questions that we have had, dealing with uncomfortable spaces and conversations, things like that. So, yeah, we're going to kind of go through this and give some examples and some quotes from the book and maybe some of our own personal experiences. Oh, I forgot to write those parts down. Yeah well, you're going to have to remember them.
Dylan:Okay, good luck. So why don't you give us a quick? I guess it's. There's nothing, not really a quick synopsis of it. You kind of just talked about how do you even get into it, because the beginning starts with a lot of her own personal stories.
Brad:Yeah, so essentially the wilderness to her is the book is about a search for true belonging, and so the first chapter discusses a lot of ways as we grow up being kids and adolescents and how we try to fit in. How do we? How do we fit in with our family, how do we fit in with our friends, with the school and groups and extracurricular things all of those ideas and is fitting in and really belonging? So the first chapter kind of deals with that.
Dylan:So it talks about so the juxtaposition between thinking going along with what's happening around you and use differentiating between belonging to just something that's going on around you versus you know kind of belonging to, I think she gets to the point of authenticity.
Brad:Yeah.
Dylan:Which is that's where you try and you find true belonging.
Brad:And she goes over the definition. So it's. It's this true belonging versus fitting in. And she distinguishes between true belonging, which involves being authentic and true to oneself, versus fitting in, which requires you to kind of contort and conform parts about you to fit whatever external expectations exist in a given group that you want to get into. And so she gives examples from her youth. The one that really struck her was she moved around a bit, I think as a military family, yes, I believe. Anyways, she had a fair amount of moving in her younger years.
Brad:And when she landed in, was it junior high, high school? Yes, there was a dance team that she she felt like if she made it onto she would just. You know, it's one of those groups where, especially in schools, you're like I can just be in this group, it'll just be cake, I'll have it made, you know. And that was what. That was what it was for her, and she could dance. But as she found out, she showed up to tryouts and what she didn't have was the sparkly clothes and the outfits and the makeup and everything else that all the other girls had. Even though she did the dances very well and maybe better than other people, she ended up not getting picked because that that she didn't fit into that group and the old razzle dazzle, yeah. And then she talks about her parents having some some marital problems and how she didn't really feel like she fit in at home and that that wasn't a really comfortable space for her to be what she thought was her true self either. And she.
Dylan:She became who she thought her parents wanted her to be or who she thought she needed to be for each set of parents versus kind of her own needs.
Brad:Yeah, and also you. You get that tension between parents and I think that happens for a lot of kids where they they'll start walking on eggshells just so that no one gets upset, right? So instead of expressing your true feelings or what you really think about a situation or anything maybe it's something that you just want or desire or what your goals are you, you back down from a lot of things so that those two people in particular don't, you don't get a big rise out of them. You know, avoiding confrontation, yeah, or trying to create situations that have no confrontation in them. So I think that was that was hard for her too.
Brad:But there is I think we touched on this at one point there's a quote and it's it kind of. It deals with that, but it's also kind of it seems just kind of stuck in the middle of some of her texts, but I like it a lot. So the quote is sometimes the most dangerous thing for kids is the silence that allows them to construct their own stories, stories that almost always cast them as alone and unworthy of love and belonging. So that feeling that you get a specially growing up or during adolescence, when everything is changing and you, you get all the new feelings and you're also feeling some negativity, and you, you aren't sure about who you are yet as a person. And instead of parents or teachers or coaches giving a proper explanation for something, sometimes the not explaining is much more harmful, because the imagination runs wild.
Dylan:When, when you just let it run it's, you're in an echo chamber, it's just. Every time it hits, it reverbs off part of your brain, it becomes a little bit worse and a little bit worse. You know, you kind of go down the what ifs get a little bit more. Yeah, devious, as it was just as devious, but to get a little bit more.
Brad:Wait, you also start there. You're in situations where these feelings exist and if you don't have explanations for them, that's Okay. So mom and dad aren't gonna talk to me about this I don't know who else talked to you about it but I have a feeling associated with this, so now I'm just gonna go down you know my own tunnel and try to figure it out, and the likelihood of that being correct is very low, because Kids are stupid happens. How's your set?
Dylan:So same could be said for non adolescents as well. No, it definitely is this definitely rings true for a lot of adults. I See it a lot in my world, where people don't know where they're necessarily going and instead of confronting that we're trying to speak openly about that. They try to solve it themselves, and then it's always the worst case scenario in the back of their head that just drives them to Insanity almost, and a lot of times it's it's the lack of communication.
Brad:So Dad's mad about something and nobody will say what it's about. It must be about me, something along those lines.
Dylan:That was. Phoenix says dad's mad at me.
Brad:He did actually say he said it the other night, and you know why? Because there was no communication, because I didn't say anything. He had a basketball game.
Dylan:Was he doing an impression of your wife? What, what you just like? Oh, dad's not talking must be mad.
Brad:No, I we got, we got home from.
Dylan:King.
Brad:Shannon and I went out to the, to the garage and was working and she comes out I Don't know, 20 minutes later she's he's really. He's really in in some sort of mood right now. So like he thinks you're mad at him and you were giving him the look you know during the game and all this stuff, and so I just kind of went in and sat down on the table. I was like so here you're talking shit about me in here.
Dylan:What are we doing?
Brad:He's like what I Was giving you dirty looks like, yeah, you were looking at me. I was like, yeah, it's the game. Be weird if I wasn't.
Dylan:I.
Brad:I kind of go there to look at you and he's like we had this look on your face. It's I go to resting Brad face. This is it's a real thing right I was.
Dylan:This is not. Don't make this personal. Do not be dealing with this my whole life Do not make this about you.
Brad:This is about me. It is because I had I was up really late and then I was up early that morning and so by that you know that night I was, I was kind of spent and I had a lot more stuff to do and I don't like bleachers and yeah.
Dylan:So I probably didn't have a.
Brad:What kind of?
Dylan:bleachers, I don't just sit there. What plastic ones? Or the metal ones? So they're like plastic, they just dig in. They just dig into your ass. I'm not. I'm not used to sitting.
Brad:I'm more used to moving and Correcting, or I don't typically sit there with a shitting and grin watching sports. Ever you know, to bleach your parent, I mean, even if I'm enjoying it, I don't. I don't think that's the face that I have.
Dylan:There's always a set of parents that are like at every activity for hours and hours, and hours.
Brad:That's me, but no so you're not the.
Dylan:These are just the parents that just hunker down, just have all the snacks and the the wheelbarrow that rolls with them to wherever they go.
Brad:That's.
Dylan:Shannon, I guess you are the, you guys are that family.
Brad:She is yeah she's got the wagon and.
Dylan:She has a ducco puzzle to or seducco, so do go. No, she's involved.
Brad:Hmm, she's the, she's all like check out.
Dylan:She mostly like texting you, so, it being so, aggressive, brad.
Brad:She does text me on the sidelines at soccer every once in a while. I knew it. Oh man, the okay. What we'll get back to the story here. Make a side note of that, okay, shannon texting sidelines.
Dylan:That'll be a fun topic someday, okay.
Brad:So yeah, I really like that about the, the kids, and that just kind of stood out. So back to the true belonging she goes back to through her college work and and this Maya Angelou quote which kind of stood out to her as she was a big fan. So this Maya Angelou quote is you are only free when you realize you belong no place, you belong every place, no place at all. The price is high, the reward is great and she, I Think, likes Everything else about Maya Angelou up until she sees this quote.
Dylan:Mm-hmm, and this was in college, right when she found this, I believe. So, yeah, she got really upset by it.
Brad:Yeah, imagine, imagine your favorite person, like, pick out your favorite music artist, and you know almost everything about them. You love them. You love their music, what you stand for. Okay, now find out that Dwight Yolkham Beats dogs with a baseball bat For a hobby. Okay, okay, it's not. It wasn't that bad.
Dylan:That, that that was extreme. You made Maya Angelou like Maya Vic for a while.
Brad:That's a lot, it's not that bad, but it. But it is something that, up until this point, she agrees with almost everything of hers, and and this one doesn't sit Real true with her, because she feels like you have to belong some place, be true belonging, I mean she's, she's starting to go down her path of true belonging. How can you truly belong if you belong no place? Doesn't make sense to her, nope, but she keeps going aliens true, I Promise myself, I get to it before you today.
Dylan:Thank you.
Brad:True belonging actually means belonging to yourself, being authentic to who you truly are, and not wavering when you don't seem to fit into created boxes. So this is a Little bit of the introduction of the wilderness. When, when you're supposed to fit into these neat little categories and you decide to step outside of them and their predefined notions of what your ideas are or what you believe in, or it doesn't take into account all of the nuances of a topic, you are stepping into the wilderness planet. Hoth, what's?
Dylan:that Star Wars it's the snow planet, snow planet to when Luke goes on the Tucked or whatever the Tucked, tucked.
Brad:Tucked.
Dylan:Tucked, tucked, I don't know.
Brad:It's that one. He's just. It's just. I was that when he sleeps inside of it.
Dylan:No, that OB, you're no. Sorry Harrison Ford, why can't hot take? I'm so bad at Star Wars right now?
Brad:The original three Star Wars are the best.
Dylan:Yes, that's what we're talking about right now.
Brad:Okay, anyway, there's a bunch of them.
Dylan:No planet. Hoth is the wilderness. It's a very harsh environment Sub-freezing temperatures, not a lot of cover. Yeah, and we'll get to that.
Brad:What do you need to survive in the wilderness? Mm-hmm, need some skills, probably maybe a lightsaber. Yeah, if that was Physically possible, that'd be great.
Dylan:Okay, so you're gonna circle back to the Maya Angelica quote later, are we gonna?
Brad:No, yeah it, it gets down to it later, Mm-hmm, but that that is what really, I Think, kind of starts off this, this quest for true belonging. And in terms of what we know about Brené Brown now, she is an avid speaker, she writes books, but her, her real passion and calling was researching. So she is, I think, at the heart of everything, a researcher. So anytime she comes up with questions she digs in. She digs in what does the research say, and if the research doesn't exist, then let's go out and ask. So that comes up in several parts of the book as well.
Dylan:So what am I supposed to my? Go up or down up, dude? Oh sorry, yeah, right here.
Brad:Okay, it's right there, it messed me up. So then we get into a little bit of, as we start wandering into the wilderness, being able to be vulnerable but courageous. So she really emphasizes the importance of being vulnerable but also having courage in the ability to establish genuine connections with other people. So this involves embracing your own imperfections and showing up authentically for what you believe in, what you are about, things that you like, things that you agree with.
Dylan:Authentically also meaning I'm not going to hide my opinions just because I'm trying to make this situation opinions thoughts More comfortable more comfortable. Yeah, you're not. It's also, though, you're not antagonistic. You know she kind of draws a line where you're not, you go in with yeah go in with your opinions are in your thoughts and your, your values. You don't use those as weapons, but you You're not afraid. You don't back down from your stance just to make a situation easier, if you will.
Dylan:If you feel it's warranted if you feel it's warranted, because then it gets into the whole nuance of well, are you open-minded or not?
Brad:Well, there's just a whole another yeah, but also sometimes you're just at dinner party and you're like I don't want to fucking go open this box right now.
Dylan:No, this is not the time Happens more often than not.
Brad:Just I can't be bothered yet, but sometimes it is the time you got to throw it out at the shrimp cocktail and have it out, pull the grenade in the or pull the pin in the grenade. You just hold it, listen, we're gonna do this right now.
Dylan:Nobody touched the Jello salad until the pins back in.
Brad:So she talks again about true belonging only happens when we present our authentic, imperfect selves to the world. Our sense of Belonging can never be greater than our level of self-acceptance, acceptance our sense of belonging can never be greater than our level of self-acceptance. So she hasn't really quite gotten to the belonging yet. But I think that starts hinting at what she means by true belonging.
Dylan:In layman's terms I shouldn't say layman's, but to kind of put it most simply your biggest Throttle or not throttle, I guess it would be your biggest governor on life is the ability to be authentic. So you know, it's it's it's governing you from being able to be more than you are right now.
Brad:It. In short, she's getting at it. If you really want this sense of true belonging but you are Defying who you actually are, that's that's not gonna go well, can't get there, yeah. So that the Equation is you are gonna feel like you belong this much based on how much of yourself you can accept, and If you can accept 100% of yourself, that means all of those little insecurities and all your imperfections and all the shit that you don't know, and Then being able to have an actual conversation with somebody that includes the downsides and not just all of your positives. So that's kind of the direction that that she's heading in. So she did get into some research and started asking people about true belonging and what they thought that meant and how that felt to them, and so when people were asked about what they wanted from true belonging, it Like many topics that we will probably cover when you ask people their true feelings on something and not just a Soapbox little quote from a meme or a TV show or a news anchor.
Dylan:Is it gonna be Kamala Harris? Is it a Kamala Harris quote? No, okay, it's not, but Tucker Carlson.
Brad:It's not gonna be as neat as Tucker Carlson, it's gonna be complicated and it's gonna get Probably a little messy but Brad Vimes if I like boxes.
Brad:This Wilderness may not be for you. Okay, that's okay. There's definitely gonna be people that don't like that, for sure. But they pay a price as well. So, when asked what people wanted from true belonging, they responded with they want to be a part of something, to experience real connection with others, but not at the cost of their authenticity, freedom or power. And the big sense was that people reported feelings surrounded by us, versus them, cultures that create feelings of spiritual disconnection. So, instead of having open-minded conversations where you can discuss Similarities and differences between whatever it is you're talking about, agree to disagree, being it being a being okay with saying that at the end, versus taking it personally right, the the idea feels a lot more about when you get into the us versus them because you have a different opinion than me.
Brad:Now, all of a sudden, I Hide all the insecurities I might have about my own opinion and attack your opinion, right?
Dylan:so instead of just defining more about what I believe and asking more about what you do, now it becomes this little verbal battle between us so, as funny as people are saying that, that they want more of that nuanced conversation by what she researched, they don't want to lose, you know, the quote is they don't want. They don't want the cost of their authenticity, freedom or power, that they don't want that to be the cost. Yes, but Doesn't it seem like today that we're more or less nuanced than ever, isn't it? You know, at least, that we, that vocal minority really, you know this kind of goes against what we all believe, that Some people say the vocal majority but some of us believe the vocal minority is kind of going with right now. Yeah, that's the rhetoric on TV, the.
Brad:That's part of it. There's a lot of parts to that and We've touched on it before where sometimes the us versus them is that's just the easy way to go. Hmm, it's easy because there's there's one, or there's this side, or there's a sign and that's it, binary, that's it.
Dylan:Yeah, we're pick one.
Brad:I'm on the other side of the line and what she's saying is no, no, no, no. There's this whole space in between the barcode. Basically, you got, you got hundreds of lines as she talks about it. It may it may be a little bit farther down, but a reference to she's her as an academic and giving speeches and somebody had come up and recommended a book and it was like deer hunting with Jesus or something along those lines. Real book, yeah, it's a real book.
Dylan:Did they like write Jesus into the deer hunter? Maybe try to get him an Academy award.
Brad:That would be a what, what, if, what if? Because he wouldn't lose, he could never lose the game, the Russian roulette game. He just kept coming back. He just kept coming back, even if he lost, he's like still here, still, hey, who would just rake in money all the time.
Dylan:And guess what? Everyone's sins have been wiped out.
Brad:So many needs do rewrite.
Dylan:Please, we're going to hell, and then we just lost all of our viewers. Please, we keep saying that and you guys keep listening. It's kind of disconcerting, hey.
Brad:I'm not saying that every idea is great on here, but that one that one might be up there, you're welcome, right then. So. So somebody comes up and says well, you need to. You need to see what it's like in the real world, because you live in this academic bubble. And then she, she goes on like you don't know anything about me, like I grew up in Texas my entire family hunts.
Dylan:Oh, this is when they're talking about the gun debate.
Brad:No, this was just one specific.
Dylan:Yeah, but then she does talk about that later.
Brad:But this was just. You have no idea what blue collar country people do.
Brad:It's like yeah, I do, fucking grew up that way, so that that was a little bit of that us versus them. Also, in the research, participants felt that the only thing that binds us together now is shared fear and disdain, not common humanity, shared trust, respect or love. They reported feeling more afraid to disagree or debate with friends, colleagues and family because of the lack of civility and tolerance. Do memes make this better or worse? Did the Saturday night live skit about the Thanksgiving dinner from a couple years ago? Wasn't that post COVID? Yeah, it was, and they did one, yeah, where people were bringing up like vaccines or or what.
Dylan:Phobia just all kind of it, and then they mean they definitely played into the stereotypes. It's interesting, though, because those two quote or those two findings in that chapter, people find People want the real experience, and I come, I'm gonna go back to this they want the real experience, the real connection with others, but not at the cost of authenticity, freedom and power. But then the next part is a direct you know, it's the direct opposite of that which is now, though we feel that we had this shared fear and disdain and not common humanity, so we have this weird dichotomy going on. Where it's we crave this?
Dylan:Exactly but we were starting to actually shy away from what we want because we're so afraid. Yes, it's kind of scary.
Brad:Yeah.
Dylan:That the fears becoming so powerful that we're willing to lose that portion of ourselves and that's.
Brad:I think that's why I really enjoyed this book, because it touches on on a very basic level of what we need to do to Reestablish some connection and civility in our discourse with each other and just there's a, there's a ton of ideas that if we go off of Facebook, or if we go off of our political posts, or if we go off the talking points of whatever the news wants us to talk about, currently it's we're gonna get us versus them all day long.
Brad:But if Then and she talks about this later and we'll get to some of those examples but if you talk about what people's actual human Humanity is when they interact with each other, it's not about that at all, it's it's all about connection. It's all about what can I do to help you, what can we do together, what can we experience together? Those are the things and those. That's what people want, and sometimes we find them I. An example I like to use is like an emergency situation, right so a tornado goes through and suddenly All of your neighbors, some of which you might not even like, all of us that everybody's together, everybody's helping, right? So To me, that sense is always there.
Dylan:It's we're just shoving it down With all of this other shit that doesn't necessarily matter and one of the big takeaways from from from that point is and she summarizes it and you might be getting this a little bit later and I don't want to steal your thunder, but people are hard to hate close up, yeah so move in.
Dylan:Yeah, that's her whole. Take, remove yourself From your isolation or your ideological bunkers, as she would put it, and engage. Because when you engage with someone it's really, it takes that air out, kind of what we discussed earlier with it with the adolescents. When there's air there's, it always turns into the worst. You know you have air between people, it always somehow creates the worst case scenario and everyone's mind and you get these false.
Brad:You get these false narratives also don't argue on the internet don't argue on the internet because you can't.
Brad:You can't read. I'm I'm sarcastic as shit, yeah, and so something that I type to you that is dripping with sarcasm in my mind might just seem super straightforward and off-putting to you. You can't read that, and then, and then the response is like the fuck are you to tell me that? Yeah, and I'd be like I'm the creator of my own world. Bitch, you're like you want to fucking go, actually key and peel that a scene on this. Oh they, yes, where they texted back and forth.
Dylan:Yes well, the one guy the one guy was, so I forgot about that he was having a great time and he was like yeah, man, I'm super excited to see you all this stuff. And then and the other guys reading everything negative and now we're gonna go.
Brad:Yeah. He's like yeah, let's go. He's like when you want to go? And he's like I don't care whenever you want to go. He's like oh, you want to fucking do this. And he's like yeah, man, I'm excited, let's fucking do this.
Dylan:It doesn't work.
Dylan:each other it's but that's exactly what exactly it is, and so I mean this will happen in the workplace. I'll see two employees or two co-workers that'll, all of a sudden something will happen and They'll both have it in their head that some they'll think the situation was negative enough that they're trying to. Either one of them is oh, whose fault was it? We'll just say, you know, something happened with the client. Yeah, whose responsibility was it? And at the end of the day, it's not the big deal. We need to rectify it internally. But then it turns into, oh well, him versus me, yeah, and they don't talk. And it's hilarious Because you'll see it happen over a course of a couple days. And then you'll hear some murmuring in the background and then you'll make them do something together and by the time they're done with whatever they're doing, they're laughing. They're like we're grabbing beers. We're doing this like really, guys, this is it's or girls. It happens either side.
Brad:It's just hilarious and so the separate, the separation and the lack of conversation.
Dylan:Because, if you want the day, you have way more in common with the guy next to you or the girl next to you, then you even real. Then you probably have in different. Yeah, differences, if you want to keep a grudge going.
Brad:Just keep each other away. I just keep separation, yeah, and it's super easy to hate someone when they're never around you.
Dylan:Yeah, but oh, when they, when you move in close, it really is, it takes that air out.
Brad:It can be addressed and you might you know you might find a new friend and so then she moves on, she gets to the vulnerability part and Really describes the wilderness as a first time. So the wilderness is a vast and dangerous environment where we are forced to navigate difficult trials to refuge, to a refuge of nature and beauty, where we seek space for contemplation. So you, you have to wade out sometime into the things that You're unsure of how am I gonna be received?
Dylan:How are people are going to?
Brad:Yeah and also it's a place where I'm gonna lose relationships where it's a place that you have to hang out in, sometimes for a while, because For me it. You hear the, the trope of Go get lost to find yourself, and a lot of times that literally means like God into the wilderness and Do some camping, do some hiking me, stay out there for a while, stay out there for a couple days, stay out there for a week.
Dylan:That doesn't mean party in Bangkok for three months, no, but I'm just it does you could?
Brad:find some other things there about yourself. Mm-hmm, probably maybe pick up a couple others but. What it does, is it? It kind of removes all the boxes, it's just. It's just you, all right, what's going on with you? You don't have to worry about everyone else's opinions. But when we're in society, that wilderness is a little bit harder to To navigate, in a sense that we are constantly surrounded by those boxes you have a little bit.
Dylan:You have less time to think objectively about yourself versus having Yourself wade with others thoughts. You're weighing yourself with others thoughts, I should say, because I'm in my job. So what does my boss need of me right now?
Brad:What is there? Yeah, there's a lot of outside influences on you to versus.
Dylan:Okay, I know I need to do this for the next step in my job, but how does this? How does what I'm doing in terms of a client relationship standpoint or a Education you know, educating others around me standpoint Do these align with my values? Or am I just trying to hit a step, a stepping stone and the perceived corporate hierarchy or whatever you know goal? I'm on for somebody else at the moment right. It's really hard to have that by yourself or just to think objectively about yourself.
Brad:Yeah, and also it's a place where you got to hang out and and find out what's there for you. That's about being your authentic self. So, in order to Brave the wilderness, this is nice, right. Going back to the title, we're talking wasn't about Balto.
Brad:No, it wasn't. So what, just like in the wilderness, analogy works because, just as we would, if we are going to go out into a harsh environment physically, hoth you get. If we're going to, hoth, you got a. You got to have a couple things. You got to have a coat, you got to have a lightsaber.
Dylan:Han Solo probably a hood. Han Solo was the guy that put Luke underneath the Tuck Tuck or whatever.
Brad:Oh was he yeah.
Dylan:Hmm, smart guy. Yeah was he. Mm-hmm, he went out.
Brad:He did go out, but Luke put himself in it. Mm-hmm, yes, he did your, let's move on. Hot, take, hot, take Brad's wrong comment. Luke put himself inside the animal. He knew the animal was gonna die and he was gonna freeze death, so he lightsaber it open and crawled inside.
Dylan:I'm definitely not playing it. Han Solo. We will ever saying get off the air. And Han.
Brad:Solo found him like that. Okay, okay, so if, If that is untrue.
Dylan:I can't hear you because you're talking if that is untrue.
Brad:That's the mandala effect happening on me right now.
Dylan:Okay, I just want.
Brad:I just want everybody to realize that okay, he got Manchurian candidate no.
Dylan:The mandala. I know I'm just messing with you. Just another M, come on.
Brad:I miss my soul in order to brave the wilderness, we need some skills. We're gonna have to learn how to listen. We're gonna have to learn how to have hard conversations.
Dylan:What do I have to do? Listen, listen Linda listen, linda, honey listen.
Brad:Have hard conversations, look for joy, share pain with others and be more curious than defensive. Oh, it's not time for that yet.
Dylan:Oh, I know exactly where you're going. It's our favorite so the Her.
Brad:She breaks this up into four little parts. These are kind of the following chapters that she does and and gives examples of and what skills they represent. So her, her, four main talking points are number one people are hard to hate. Close up, move in. Hmm number two speak truth to bullshit, but be civil, which we have touched on before. Number three hold hands with strangers.
Dylan:What about COVID? I know, yeah, that one did an age. Well, hmm, we'll get into it.
Brad:Okay, and number four strong back, soft front, wild heart.
Dylan:So those are her. Sounds like like a journey song.
Brad:Yeah, yeah, that makes me feel something strong back soft front, wild heart.
Dylan:Definitely what it is, and you know what it is, hmm.
Brad:It's one of those whiteboards with the black letters in a wood frame that you hang in your kitchen. That's what it is. Yes, yeah, mm-hmm. It reminds me of hobby lobby.
Dylan:Mm-hmm, all right, so in one martini, two martini, three martini floor okay, Wow, you get through three.
Brad:That's good. So the the skills she sets up as this acronym Braving no yeah. Braving Hmm, who would have thought? I don't know. I like acronyms, but I don't like this one. I like ones that end up spelling dirty words. It's more fun, it's easier to remember.
Dylan:And this is why.
Brad:So braving and this is specifically about trusting others and then she also does a self-trust. But the braving is boundaries reliability, accountability, vault integrity, non-judgment, generosity. So boundaries are can I trust you, right? So do you respect my boundaries? And when you're not clear about what's okay and not okay, you ask so is this good? When we talk about this Reliability, do you say what you say you'll do? This means staying aware of your competencies and limitations so you don't over promise and are able to deliver on your commitments. So, under promise, over deliver? Hmm-hmm, maybe.
Brad:Oh yeah, if you own your mistakes, apologize and make amends. Holy shit, could I talk about that for a long time? I feel like that's a.
Dylan:Is that a hot take?
Brad:I feel like that's a real issue for a lot of people.
Dylan:Accountability, yeah 100%, and cell phones have made it 20 times worse. Just the how many times are like I'm gonna be there at eight. And back in the day you didn't have phones, you had to be there at eight, and now it's like 9.15. I didn't, you know, I just Some things happen, but I'm here and I I just had a loose example.
Brad:I just had a loose example. I just talked to a friend the other day and he had mentioned something and he was like I've been listening to the podcast but you haven't done this rant yet that he wants to hear. I'm like I know, but I'm not realistically Brad's hot takes. Any rant that I go on. I'm not excluded from.
Dylan:Yeah.
Brad:So let's just lay that out there right now is that most of the shit that I talk about like accountability and like, oh, you want to talk about your mistakes and how you apologize and can you make amends to people. Those are things that I try to do. Do I do it? Well, all the time Fucking? No, Absolutely not. But being aware of it and working towards that are different than I feel like full denial of that or lack of awareness or complete lack of awareness.
Dylan:Yeah, which one's worse?
Brad:That's one's hard sometimes, so mark that down as a possible Accountability Future talking point that will also come up if we ever do a Ted Lasso episode, because that I feel like that is an overarching theme in that show as well. Yeah, is owning up to things and apologizing and not waiting five years to admit something you did wrong and then moving on Just like having the hard conversations. So Vault is the V. So not sharing information or experiences that are not yours to share, whether it's with other people or someone else has confided in you or whatever. Integrity is that kind of what we talked about before, where you are choosing to be authentic to yourself instead of just comfortable based on whatever everyone around you wants to hear Malleable You're not malleable. Are you actually standing up for what you think is correct? And at the end of the episode I think we will. If I have one major qualm about some of this, it's going to have to do with an ill perceived notion of integrity. I believe so ill perceived.
Brad:Non-judgment is the end. I can ask for what I need and you can ask for what you need, and we're going to talk about how we feel about certain things without just being ridiculed by the other person. And that's going to have a lot to do with are we truly listening to what we want? And the last one is generosity. So when we're having an argument and you say something, instead of me taking the most negative, diabolical stance on that statement, I can Giving you the breathing room, I'm going to give you the most benefit of the doubt. That, yeah, maybe the best interpretation maybe of it.
Dylan:Yeah, there's some pretty cut and dry things.
Brad:Unless you're just stating facts completely wrong. So there's nuances to these things too right. And then we kind of end this chapter on. She quotes Joseph Campbell if you can see your path laid out in front of you, step by step, you know it's not your path. Your path, your own path you make with every step you take. That's why it's your path.
Dylan:So goes back to a little bit of what we've talked about with the balance episode, which was All these people have these methods and these daily routines and these mantras, and who's that crazy guy that does the self, the self actualization, meditation, or he?
Brad:just came. Who's making up terms I forgot for five hours in the morning.
Dylan:But just because somebody else, this is, this is this is how somebody else became successful. This is doesn't necessarily this is your way. It's good to experiment, but if it doesn't work, it's okay.
Brad:Don't get frustrated so as she goes along, we kind of keep redefining what this true belonging means, right? So in the beginning, belonging was just do it fit into this, this box, that I want to be right, can I make the dance team? And just then I'll, then I'll really belong somewhere. And Now we're getting to the point where we're kind of understanding what people want From true belonging. So her updated definition is true belonging is the spiritual practice of believing in and belonging to yourself so deeply that you can share your most authentic self with the world and find sacredness and both being a part of something and Standing alone in the wilderness.
Brad:True belonging doesn't require you to change who you are. It requires you to be who you are, and that's gonna be Something to talk about later and that's really hard, both in a both in what I think is a positive sense, because I have to remember when we're reading this kind of stuff, we're we're looking at it from our own perspectives and a growth mindset and things like that. But I'm also thinking Someone else could read this true belonging doesn't require you to change who you are. It requires you to be who you are. And what if you're an asshole?
Dylan:you could absolutely weaponize that yeah, mm-hmm.
Brad:So if there, if there is anything that I have Some issues with, I think remember we talked about what we talked about like self optimization and things like that and how Some things that are probably really good for people, some people aren't in the right mindset to make use of. I Feel like this is potentially one of those things where it's it's like you could just kind of pick. Yeah, she just doesn't want me to change.
Dylan:Yeah, she wants me to be who I am. Yeah, you make it interesting Point here. Sorry, throw a bubble. There's a. This is a lot with research in general. There's a lot of things that make research work and Kind of you know theories etc. My econ background. You will have assumptions. So this book has a set of assumptions associated with it that when you assume those things then you know everything else falls into place. This probably assumes that by the time you're reading this book you're in a decently healthy headspace. You know you have good intentions. You're coming here for growth. But if you're coming here for a quick fix and you don't have some things that are Correct in your life or I shouldn't say correct, but aren't settled else in other areas, you know you can absolutely extrapolate this out in the wrong way.
Brad:But also I feel like if, if you were one of those more ill-intentioned people, you could stop here and believe what you want to mm-hmm, you wouldn't be able to make it through the rest of the book. No, because you're not going to, you're not gonna be able to accomplish what she mm-hmm sets out to believe that that we should accomplish if we want a true sense of true belonging. So that's where that's where I'm kind of back and forth a little bit, where I think that kind of thing could be taken out of context.
Dylan:Anything, but also out of context though.
Brad:Also, there are some people that I think I Don't know, some of the people that you think are the worst and you feel really believe in something. I Don't know if they do, especially if they're personalities.
Brad:Well yeah, that's a whole other topic. It's like I'm selling something, yeah, right, and so that's that's what we're talking about it. If, if you believe something from you know a far-right TV show and and you like what that guy has to say, but then we sit down and start discussing the topic and you're able to openly discuss it, like she talks about later in the book, are we gonna end up as far apart as we did when we started the conversation? Probably not, I'd most likely not. But Again, like you said, that assumes that you're willing to have open conversations and admit Rights and wrongs.
Dylan:There's no, you're not coming with an agenda.
Brad:No, it's, it's not so the hard conversations is gonna be. I'm not having this to win, I'm having this to understand, so I Don't want it's like when people go on and they want to.
Dylan:You're coming in with the intention of wanting the truth at the end, that's like people go on a podcast, or it's the old school Socratic debate. We are going to sit here and discuss until we get to the truth.
Brad:Yeah, but the Socratic debate is set up in such a way that that Winning is the only option I know, so let's not go down that. Nobody liked that episode. Yeah, whatever the problem, I just spent like three years my life on that. Fuck you guys. Wait Nobody liked it.
Dylan:No, you got bad. You got bad ratings yeah. I didn't know that yeah that's awesome.
Brad:Somebody give me a zero stars. Really yeah whoo, they didn't leave a name.
Dylan:I didn't see that play, though. Okay, I got it.
Brad:So she, she goes back to the, the Maya Angelo. We belong everywhere and nowhere, and that seems absurd, but it's true. The why is it true? So can you. You are a part of something, in the sense that you are being true to yourself and Also possibly connecting with others, but you're also very much out in the world on your own, in a sort of sense. So, in the sense that your true, authentic self is, it's just you.
Dylan:It's freeing, though, because it allows you to, without using the same words over and over again, by being able to strip away those insecurities, those doubts, you know? It's kind of essentially what she's talking about. I am who I am, I believe what I believe and I'm willing to. I'm willing to be that, and if somebody doesn't like that, I'm okay. But it allows you to be more intimate with individuals. It allows you to be more, and not in a romantic way necessarily, but it allows you to be more closely connected with someone because you're having real, honest, true conversations versus being Fictitious or, you know, you're acting a certain way which, at the end of the day, is a superficial shroud. So it's by being alone. It allows you to be more connected. It is a paradox, but it allows you to connect. Yes, oh, a paradox. You say oh, oh, wow, I lobbed him, I lobbed you did that on purpose?
Brad:No, wow. Well, that's she ends. She ends with Carl Jung, which we'll talk about him some more in the future, probably to you his name seems to come up a lot.
Dylan:Yeah, you and Jordan Peterson.
Brad:Yeah, it comes up in a lot of different things.
Brad:Yeah and I, honestly, I haven't read a lot of Jung, but I I feel like people like to cherry pick some of his quotes and ideas a lot of times. I, from from my stance, I think he's popular because he, he was kind of one of the first people to really go down that psychology road. You can look, I don't know that much about him, honestly, but he anyway. She ends with him Saying that the paradox is one of our most valued spiritual possessions in In, in the sense that it really makes a struggle With. Didn't we just talk about this? We did in the in previous one. It'll be duality. So we, really we, we struggled with. You know how am I a good person but I sometimes do bad things, or so those are the kind of paradoxes that if you actually sit back and Take note of them and start thinking about them Do. They're fucking annoying, they make you think a lot, but they will probably Further your development more than anything else.
Dylan:So and we're not just talking about chicken and the egg.
Brad:No, is that a paradox? Yeah, I guess it is. Mm-hmm, what comes first? True belonging to lonesomeness? Oh fuck.
Dylan:Hmm, it's gonna have to be lonesomeness. Well, you're gonna have to go through a little hardship.
Brad:Your, your opinions are invalid. So okay. All right. Well, let's, let's take a break on that one, because this is gonna be a two-parter, yeah, and we will be nice little intro, we will teaser. We got him through it, we were going pick up on the on the lonesomeness part in this next time, dun-dun-dun.
Dylan:All right, thank you. Thank you, you're still here.
Brad:It's over go home. Go.