As I sat across from my good friend recounting the tale of how we once threw caution to the wind and attempted to reenact our favorite "Ted Lasso" scene, it struck me just how powerful our need for connection truly is. This podcast episode explores that profound journey from isolation to belonging, guided by the insightful themes of Brene Brown's "Braving the Wilderness." Through chuckles over our amateur theatrics and the melodic strains of bluegrass music, we uncover the artistry of expression that draws us together, revealing that even in our loneliness, we share a common thread of humanity.
You might chuckle at the absurdity of Mario's mushroom-induced transformations, but isn't that the magic of storytelling? It pulls back the curtain on the complexities of life and the characters we hold dear. From the cultural phenomenon of 'Ted Lasso' to the minutiae of a British dart game, we embark on a narrative odyssey that probes the impact of entertainment on our lives and relationships. Through laughter and heartfelt moments, we explore how these narratives shape our understanding of one another and the world around us.
Wrapping up with a misquoted Walt Whitman and the charged climate of modern politics, we remind ourselves of the power of staying curious in a world that's quick to judge. The episode touches on the pain hidden behind hatred and the importance of meaningful conversations for overcoming division. Join us as we navigate misunderstandings and bridge gaps through dialogue, asking the crucial "why" that brings clarity to our emotions and connections. After all, isn't it through these shared stories and heartfelt exchanges that we find the courage to step into the wilderness together?
As I sat across from my good friend recounting the tale of how we once threw caution to the wind and attempted to reenact our favorite "Ted Lasso" scene, it struck me just how powerful our need for connection truly is. This podcast episode explores that profound journey from isolation to belonging, guided by the insightful themes of Brene Brown's "Braving the Wilderness." Through chuckles over our amateur theatrics and the melodic strains of bluegrass music, we uncover the artistry of expression that draws us together, revealing that even in our loneliness, we share a common thread of humanity.
You might chuckle at the absurdity of Mario's mushroom-induced transformations, but isn't that the magic of storytelling? It pulls back the curtain on the complexities of life and the characters we hold dear. From the cultural phenomenon of 'Ted Lasso' to the minutiae of a British dart game, we embark on a narrative odyssey that probes the impact of entertainment on our lives and relationships. Through laughter and heartfelt moments, we explore how these narratives shape our understanding of one another and the world around us.
Wrapping up with a misquoted Walt Whitman and the charged climate of modern politics, we remind ourselves of the power of staying curious in a world that's quick to judge. The episode touches on the pain hidden behind hatred and the importance of meaningful conversations for overcoming division. Join us as we navigate misunderstandings and bridge gaps through dialogue, asking the crucial "why" that brings clarity to our emotions and connections. After all, isn't it through these shared stories and heartfelt exchanges that we find the courage to step into the wilderness together?
Welcome to another episode of Terribly Unoblivious. Today we're back with part two of Braving the Wilderness by Brene Brown and High Lonesome. In this episode we discuss how we are sorting ourselves out of shared experiences and into lonesomeness. We discuss how to deal with preconceived notions of others and ourselves based on minimal input. You will hear myself do a failed reading of a Ted Lasso scene and we end with an exploration of dehumanization and empathy. People are hard to hate close up, so move in. We hope you enjoy Braving the Wilderness, part two High Lonesome.
Dylan:Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again life moves pretty fast.
Brad:You don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
Dylan:All right, we're back here. Part two Braving the Wilderness, left it on lonesome Hiyo.
Brad:Silver, that doesn't sound very lonely.
Dylan:What Hiyo Silver?
Brad:Yeah, yeah, it's the Lone Ranger.
Dylan:It's Whiplash. Eh, I'm kidding. What's Whiplash? I don't know that.
Brad:You know what that just reminded me of? Hmm, your fucking text messages to me. Which one? All of them, all of them.
Dylan:I play this game where I just try to send it. Is it a game for you? It is, that's fun.
Brad:I am so happy that one of us likes it.
Dylan:I just like to send random things to Brad, and normally during serious conversations. Yeah, during this is hours During serious conversations, and then I'll just kind of go off on random, random things and see where he can. He just doesn't handle it well, I hate it so much. Do you feel lonely when you do it?
Brad:No, I feel enraged. I feel my temperature rise. I feel hot in my ears. Did you eat shellfish? No, it's like when someone makes the very what, a how do you? Oh, today could have been better. Dot dot, dot. Oh, you're Eeyore Type posts. Oh, like they're just really random and non-specific. Yeah, but that's looking for attention.
Brad:Oh, and yours is it no? Oh, then, why do you like the game so much? Because I just want, I just want an answer. I just want an answer, and then all I get are more random statements that seemingly have nothing to do with each other. So this is this.
Dylan:This is what happens. I work in an office full of very sarcastic people oh.
Brad:I thought you were going to say vampires, oh no, we do have a werewolf, and that's a whole different story.
Dylan:But we play this game where we try to get each other to understand what we're talking about by referencing other things. So what I do when I'm talking to you is I'm just exercising that muscle in my mind to try to see how many other threads there are to get to what we're discussing.
Brad:Okay, do we ever get there? Do I ever nail it down? No, but it helps me.
Dylan:it's like improv it just. You're just, you're just my medium for practice. Thank you, you're welcome.
Brad:I love that I can facilitate your growth, all right. So yeah, we ended on on the chapter dealing with the lonesomeness, the high lonesome Actually, this kind of leads into do you think Brene is going to sue us for just using her book for material? No, isn't that what she wrote it?
Dylan:Okay, yeah, let's move on then lonesomeness.
Brad:Are you think we're the first people that have covered this book?
Dylan:No.
Brad:No, no, I'm thinking about creating a whole new spinoff that only references this book.
Dylan:How about you have to use analogies? I'm really good at analogies.
Brad:You're not bad. Yeah, I'm not gonna tell you my most recent ones.
Dylan:Okay.
Brad:So this she starts off this chapter with the high lonesome which was a a hollering call in Kentucky when people were returning from World War One, and it was these vets that would return. And they're walking down railroad tracks and and they would just let out these, what can only be described as a holler and loud, high pitched, a sort of scream of pain, slash, freedom, kind of just this, all letting all of that emotion.
Dylan:It was an amalgamation of emotion Out.
Brad:Yeah right, I mean you've got.
Dylan:You've got sadness, you've just left a war, and not sad that you're leaving the war, but you experienced extreme sadness, frustration, despair, and now you're happy to be home. But then how do you reconcile the two things?
Brad:And so she kind of talks about that holler being included into what is now known as bluegrass, and they called that a holler, in particular high lonesome, so it created its own like mini genre of bluegrass music and she talks a little bit about art and this is interesting to me because I remember in high school having a weeks long discussion of what art is and trying to decide if, okay, here's, here's something, is this art?
Brad:oh, here's something, is this art? What's your definition? How malleable is it? Does it change? Is it art because an artist made it? Is art because people relate to it like what's what's the deal? And in here she says it's the sharing of art that whispers. You're not alone. And to like, for me, great art, whether it's writing, painting, music, it can connect with maybe not everybody, let's not put that parameter on it but it can connect with multiple varieties of people and maybe it's not always why does it generally connects the one variety?
Brad:well, maybe maybe they're not all on the same level. Okay, some, maybe some people feel that particular art a lot heavier than than others do, but they still feel some sort of connection and the connection be totally different, like me, and you look at a painting and it makes me feel and think about one thing and it makes you feel and think about something totally different, but it makes us think and feel right. So, in my sense, not chat gpt like good art. That's. I think that's what it does in in in my definition. Obviously everybody disagrees. Does it appreciate? Does it appreciate that?
Dylan:dollars. Top of the list. Dollars and cents. Dollars and cents so she?
Brad:she talks about what we talked about in the last episode, where we yearn for the spiritual connection between people. So we search for it, but in reality we're we're also kind of addicted to the sorting feature that we do in our daily lives, where we want to continually put the remember, the, the kids. No, you don't remember. Yeah, you were never a kid you know have kids.
Dylan:You're right, I was thinking about kids probably I was thinking about kids probably never even been around. I was in my 20s for 30 years why does that not seem totally implausible?
Brad:I can picture you as a six-year-old, 20 year-old exactly. Yeah, that's kind of funny actually let's make okay second note. Okay, I had a good one last time. Uh, yeah, dylan is a. It would be kind of like a doogie howser, but not medical related. You know so young kid, but but 20 year old vibes mm-hmm Dylan in his 20s.
Dylan:Yeah, just be a six-year-old, just for 30 years. Spinach tables okay and doing crossfit oh, I only did crossfit when I had to.
Brad:It was terrible so but the kids toy, where it's the shape sorting, and you put all the shapes in the the appropriate slots uh, yeah. I feel like that's what we do, mm-hmm in our daily lives, and maybe we used to have more slots available. Then we do now like we're losing some of that.
Dylan:You get triangle, square and circle. That is it. Maybe no rectangle no, maybe.
Brad:So we. She thinks we're becoming addicted to this sorting so, rather than coming together and sharing our experiences, so, a little bit what we talked about forwards, we're looking for joy together and we're sharing pain together, right? So these experiences that bond us um, and she uses in this particular instance, through song and story, we're screaming at one another from further and further away, you, which that's a strong statement, cause I feel like that really gets to some of the aspects that we're dealing with in our daily lives, whether it's text messages or any type of online media.
Dylan:Makes sense. You know, in a way, the reason we're getting louder is because we're getting farther.
Brad:Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you're not. You're literally not even in the same space. You feel like it's a connection you don't. You know nothing about it's, so you don't know names, it's so innate in us and humans, though.
Dylan:How many times have you seen this where and I find myself doing it, which is, you know, a traveler across the world, and if someone doesn't speak the same language with as you, you inherently it's not, you're not trying to do it. All of a sudden you're almost yelling because you think that a little more loudness is going to get them to understand it. So silly, it's like. Just enunciate a little better. I feel so bad when I catch myself doing it. They'll, they'll get it. It's. Why is that so innate in us? It's definitely a human trait, like the reason it's a stereotype for so many people is. It's just. It's not. I don't. People don't do it out of ill will. I think maybe some do, but for the most part, we had this natural tendency. Just, we'll turn it up to 11. Yeah.
Brad:I also feel like the people that did it like do it with ill will, especially in this country. So other people coming to this country go to their country and then try that. It's like no, you're the only dumb ass that doesn't speak the language. Yeah, it's. Yeah. I feel really stupid whenever, like when we went to Moab and it was no one was from the United States Nope, and yet we were able to have a conversation with almost everyone, because everyone else is smarter than us and they know.
Brad:English. So, yeah, there's a little bit of that. So we we sort and we have sorted ourselves into these like-minded groups. So we want we want to silence anyone that is not with us. So we want to shut down that part of ourselves that would have to have hard conversations with people that had different ideas than us. And then, of course, that allows us to only hear the ideas that we want to hear and that that makes us more extreme and more confident in our in our own ideas, and we get into those echo chambers that, yeah, feed me facts that prove my point. That's your job. Social media, that's not really your job. Quit doing it.
Dylan:I don't do you know what I love about social media. I don't like it. Is it starting it?
Brad:quit giving me quit giving me Timu ads.
Dylan:It started to build relationships. It was people that were too afraid to go have conversations and to hook up. Is that how it started? It's pretty much what happened.
Brad:I thought it started based on rating girls' faces. That was the facey space. No that's how Facebook started.
Dylan:Yes, that's how facey space started. Is that what it was called? No, that's just what I call it, oh God.
Brad:There was a hot or not. You remember that?
Dylan:Oh yeah, there was Friendster.
Brad:There was MySpace MySpace.
Dylan:You don't remember Friendster?
Brad:Never was on that.
Dylan:Yeah, neither was I that. One didn't last long, no, Napster that was probably a bad name.
Brad:Yeah, they kind of did take the Napster hand, but so yeah, we've kind of we put everybody in their shape slot and then goodbye. We don't ever want to see you again, pretty much. But also for those people that really love to sort, you want those shapes to stay around so that you can just keep badgering them. Who the fuck are you gonna yell at online if there's no other shapes there?
Dylan:Yeah, I liken those people to the people with OCD. But no, no style sense. So they just like things like. I can't say the name out loud because they're gonna get angry at me.
Brad:Okay.
Dylan:If I say this, they're gonna know who that we're talking about. Okay, is it me?
Brad:But fuck you.
Dylan:That's not you, but I don't care. If there's 50 books stacked on the table. They have to be perfectly square with each other all the way up versus being. This table maybe can handle two coffee table books. We don't need 50. And so we should probably take 48 of them off, okay, and then move them somewhere else. Yeah, 50's a lot, but no, I don't care about all of it as long as it's neat in order to, as long as it's the way that I want it to be.
Dylan:Yeah, and it's. I feel like there's a lot of people like that with these shapes, which is, yeah, maybe we could do something to correct this, but as long as. I can do this and that it doesn't really bother me anymore.
Brad:I feel like all the online haters are like Jack Nicholson and a few good men. Oh, you want us on that wall. You need us on that wall Pretty much. That's what it feels like. And then you're like you're only here to yell at people and they're like you're goddamn right, I am.
Dylan:I ordered the code. That's right.
Brad:So this is where we get back into that deer hunting with Jesus.
Brad:So someone went to a lot of sin that got saved in the 1960s it was somebody went to a speech that she was giving, or something like that and proceeded to judge her and know everything that they need to know about her and came up to her afterwards and said you should read deer hunting with Jesus, this book, because you clearly don't know how to relate to people that are like me, and she, I think, did not read the book. I think she chose not to read the book. I think she pretty accurately assumed that they didn't know that much about her, which is you know, they were assuming something about her and she was assuming something about them and she probably was right.
Brad:But yeah, the quote is the paradox is that we all love the ready made filing system, so handy when we want to quickly characterize people, but we resent it when we're the ones getting filed away. So, just like she probably wanted to turn around and be like oh I know exactly who you are based on what you just told me, we want to do it to people and then when somebody comes up and tells us you know what you should do, you should get a handle on this, because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. We don't like that very much. No, that hurts. Coincidentally, that's how I start most conversations with strangers.
Dylan:Oh, I know, Trust me.
Brad:But it ends with the idea that I don't know what more could describe this podcast than this little asterisk right here. People aren't that simple. Even simple people aren't that simple. No, they're not so that.
Dylan:Stuart simple.
Brad:At some point, when someone asked me what we talk about on a regular basis, I might have an answer, but people aren't that simple. As a pretty good start, I feel like it was what we talk about. We talk about nuances. I mean, we started talking about wandering into the wilderness before we really had the vernacular to talk about it.
Dylan:Yeah, we didn't have the tool set or the framework in place to even understand. No, but we.
Brad:That's where we were wanting to go. I think initially with some of these things was just yeah, the boxes aren't. Boxes aren't really there. No, there's some groupings, but there's all kinds of intermingling.
Dylan:They're like the shadow boxes in Mario, you know, and they have the ones you can hit.
Brad:The mushrooms come out of.
Dylan:Yeah, there's the real ones. But then they have those shadow boxes they try to jump into but they just like shapeless. They're just there outlines. There's nothing there to jump into. What if, when?
Brad:Mario hit the mushroom boxes and he gets bigger. He's just tripping. He didn't actually get bigger.
Dylan:Yeah, okay, good idea. Or maybe the world got smaller. Maybe I like that better. No, yeah, still could be tripping though.
Brad:All right, so can we, should we do this Can?
Dylan:we Are we gonna get sued? No, we're not gonna get sued.
Brad:Oh, I wanna play the clip though, but I know we're gonna link this clip and this is from Ted Lasso and a lot of people have. If you are on any kind of social media, you've probably seen. I'm not gonna say that it's all over my. I get it. It's geared towards me. What is? Whatever comes through your feed? Oh, right so this particular clip comes over my feed almost on a regular basis, almost daily, I would say so it is.
Dylan:I get the Ted Lasso biscuit recipe almost daily.
Brad:So Ted Lasso is. If you don't know it, what are you doing with your life? Super popular Apple TV show, jason Stakis. He's an American football coach that goes over to coach a Premier League football team.
Dylan:All started because of a commercial when NBC was bringing the premiership over to the US like full time, was it? That's how the show got started. Have you not seen the original commercials? No, this was like seven years ago, eight years ago, when NBC made the big push into European football.
Brad:Okay, well, you know how. You don't follow social media.
Dylan:I don't watch TV, Okay well, I've been watching Europe or world football longer than you doesn't even matter, we're just gonna you have, you have.
Brad:I've just recently become addicted. This is where this is what we call. Only one more thing to try. This is cocaine still the funniest. We're gonna have to link that clip to so Ted is in a bar and he's with his current owner and the previous owner who the couple is divorced now. And oh no, the guy is a real. What nothing happened.
Dylan:No, I meant like oh no, yeah, the previous owner is a real.
Brad:Yeah, he's a real piece of work, right, rupert? And so they kind of get into this bet of let's play a little darts and if, if I win, I get to set the lineup, and and, ted, if you win, you you decide that I don't get to sit in the owner's box ever again.
Dylan:Let's also set the stage that darts in the UK specifically is. It's is is a Sport unto itself, which it. I understand that sounds redundant, but it is one of the biggest things and pub sports over there like they take their darts very seriously. How many.
Brad:How many pub sports do you know of?
Dylan:billiards. I'm a trigger snooker. Okay. Okay, I like that ring toss. I don't know.
Brad:So oh, oh, that makes me mad. I don't like it when the screen does that. Yeah they better wake up right now, cuz I'm ready to go. So they cuts, so they start playing, and then it cuts to this, the end of the game. And Ted asked the the bartender may, because?
Dylan:what do I?
Brad:need to win. It goes to triple 20s and a bull's-eye and Rupert, the previous owner, says good luck and Then Ted goes into this epic mini monologue. That, I think, defines the show pretty well in my opinion. Mm-hmm, I don't know if you agree.
Brad:Oh, I know it does but I I think that's why it's such a famous one. So Ted goes. You know, rupert, guys have underestimated me my entire life and for years I never understood why. I used to really bother me. But Then one day I was driving my little boy to school and I saw this quote by Walt Whitman and it was painted on the wall there and it said be curious, not judgmental, and I like that.
Brad:And Ted throws a dart, hits his first triple 20. So I get back in my car and I'm driving to work and all of a sudden it hits me. All them fellows that used to belittle me, not a single one of them were curious, you know. They thought they had everything all figured out. So they judged everything and they judged everyone and I realized they're underestimating me. Who I was, had nothing to do with it, because if they were curious they would ask questions you know, like have you played a lot of darts, ted? I said Throws another dart, hits another triple 20, to which I would have answered yes, sir.
Brad:Every Sunday afternoon to sports bar with my father from age 10 until I was 16, when he passed away, they throws his last one, hits a bullseye, and that. That like pre judgment of what people are capable of, what people have gone through what. What do you know about someone else's life? You? Just, you Take what you see at face value and then you create this entire backstory around people, mm-hmm, and you, you judge them. And you have to judge people sometimes. Yeah, you do. I think it's a necessity of making your way through life. You, whether correctly or incorrectly, you have to do that on a regular basis.
Dylan:There are situations that call for quick assessment.
Brad:Yeah, yeah, for, like obvious safety reasons, whether that's gonna be the case or not. But there's other things where, if we just asked, I wonder why they said that, wonder why they did that, I wonder what actions led up to that particular thing, and that just doing that and not having the answers Makes you think about it in a different way, mm-hmm. And then if you have the opportunity to actually Talk to them about it, well, shit, you might figure out a whole new world and and what you thought was totally wrong. So there's, there's, that, it's, I Think I this story reminds me of you a Little bit, and not you, not you in the sense that, like, it reminds me of you, but when? So, like if people that I know and then you're around them, and then they they're like oh, that's like they happen today with Corbin. Oh no, that little story, yeah he goes.
Brad:Oh, who's our house? Oh, dylan's. Over here we're working on something. What car did you drive? And Shannon goes. He, he drove his truck. He goes oh, it's hoping he was gonna drive the Ferrari, like he doesn't have a Ferrari, but he knows associations, right, yes, and so. So if you talked about, well, I traveled to do this or I went to do this, and so people get these little bits and pieces about you, and how easy is it to just write a backstory Without knowing all the little nuances of Dylan that I know, you know and and that's I think people do that all the time oh, yeah, you know, and that that quote for me really kind of Re-iterates that so the big question is is did you read more Walt Whitman after that, or did you just know?
Brad:I show. No, I did look that up and it's not actually a Walt Whitman quote. It's attributed to him sometimes but never, it's never been. He was like never written down anywhere, it's not been published by him anywhere. So it's kind of one of those things that some people said it and then some people just kind of like oh yeah, that's what we're gonna quote yeah and then maybe the research wasn't good or maybe it just sounded better because it was. Walt Whitman is a obvious poet and it's relatable.
Dylan:A lot of people know him, yeah, so, as opposed to some other random, Walt, walt would uh, walt would agree that it's probably good for you to get out and explore things by yourself.
Brad:Yeah. So Back to this lonesome we, she says, walking away from people we know and love because of our support for strangers we really don't know, can barely believe and definitely don't love, who for sure won't be there to drive us to chemo or bring over food when the kids are sick. That's the shadow side of sorting. Kind of funny. You said shadow boxes earlier.
Dylan:It's almost like I'm killing it. It's almost like I know what I'm talking about.
Brad:But this is, oh, can I say his last name whom? When I read this, walking away from people we know and love because of our support for strangers we really don't know, can barely believe and definitely don't love, it makes me think of a specific politician, and I just think it's Trump. People get, they're really Fanatic, and if you don't think so, I Don't own any pajamas that say Joe Biden, so we can start there. No, I'm saying yeah, I feel like why do you love them, don't I? Don't you love the guy that you voted for, that you've never met and you don't know that much about? Yeah, it's weird and that you're gonna ostracize the entire rest of your family for that?
Dylan:Yeah, those are.
Brad:Those are things that are that definitely happen, and the opposite side of that is true as well, and she, she gives some examples of that. So the yeah, who was it? The, the family. The kid came back from college and was talking to his dad and he's like, oh hey, dad, how's the new neighbors?
Brad:and oh yeah this you know they're really great, they're Oriental and they they show it. They always bring over this great food and you know we're gonna go out to dinner with them later this week and the kid just blows up. He's like fucking Oriental dad, jesus Christ, with fucking racist much. You know there's no orient, nobody lives there.
Dylan:You can't say that there's a train named after him, though, and After who the Oriental Express. No, I get that. I'm just.
Brad:I know it's a joke, come on, we're supposed to humor man and it, his, his dad, started, like his dad kind of started crying and he's like I don't know what I did to make you hate me so much. He's like I have to go get ready to drive the neighbor that I hate to the hospital because we got to pick up her husband and she doesn't have a ride to get there.
Dylan:Yeah, so it's, and we're gonna have dinner at some point too.
Brad:So yeah, so it's this, this thing where we want to pick Whatever thing we're passionate about and then just fucking jam it down everybody else's throat and separate ourselves from them. So that's but that in particular, made me think of of those, like, how we get so aligned with with personalities of of people. Ideas are one thing, but when you, when you just latch on to Basically anonymous person because you don't fucking know them in real life, and then you ostracize all of the people that you do know in real life, I think they call that something. I think that's a cult.
Brad:Jared let us started a cult. Cool Good for him. Mm-hmm, how's that going?
Dylan:I. I'll show you pictures later. We'll attach a link. Awesome as well. All I know is it was only women and most of them are blonde.
Brad:Hmm, weird.
Brad:Okay well, I mean, I guess he had priorities when he was making a membership details. So at the same time that our story in three cheese beats is on the rise, so is loneliness. So she, she had stats on that. But we have to, we have to figure out that, acknowledging that our lack of tolerance for having these vulnerable, tough conversations, that is what is actually driving our self-sorting, and then that's making us feel more disconnected, and so that's kind of the end of the high lonesome chapter. And how do we get back that connection Right? So that's where we kind of go back into that, into the four part, where it's people are hard to hate, close up, move in, speak truth to bullshit, but be civil, hold hands with strangers and strong back, soft front, wild heart.
Brad:Yes, the journey song, our favorite kitchen memo. So next we kind of move into this. The dehumanization and empathy portion where we talk about it eventually gets into this us versus them. But in order to get there in the first place, you have to dehumanize the side, because it makes it easier to fight. So if I don't think of you as like an actual, on par with me human, Aliens If. I give you two episodes in a row Two episodes in a row.
Dylan:You're killing it Did you get the meme?
Brad:Did you get the Giffy I sent to you earlier?
Dylan:No.
Brad:What which one? Please tell me. I sent it to you Please tell me Okay, quick, quick, quick.
Dylan:I did not.
Brad:I did not. You know what it was. It was an alien sniffing cocaine.
Dylan:Oh yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, I did, okay, I did.
Brad:Oh, that's funny. So it's eventually we're gonna talk about empathy.
Dylan:Why do you always talk about what we're going to get to versus actually talking?
Brad:Because these are deep, deep topics you know, they require some you gotta expound upon them.
Dylan:Exp expound.
Brad:Expound.
Dylan:Expound, expunge, expend, expand.
Brad:Exponential. No, it definitely doesn't have a square, so how do we, how do we have these meaningful conversations and connections in the face of disagreements, which is most likely where the most meaningful conversations are gonna happen. Not very often do we sit down and be like, hey, we believe in exactly the same thing and we're gonna talk about it for a really long time and we're gonna leave with a much better understanding of ourselves.
Dylan:Brad, I hate that fucking sweatshirt you're wearing, so why would you wear that in front of me? It's comfortable and that's a fairly I mean, that's a fair answer.
Brad:Why are you gonna attack?
Dylan:me. I was just telling you how I felt I was being authentic. You don't like gray, you just all against gray Dude, I think like 90% of the clothes I wear are gray. No, no, I was like your whole fucking house is gray. Yeah, all I did is you painted it. Oh, no, I painted it. I lied, you painted the trim.
Brad:She starts out with a quote from one of the mini Baldwin brothers. No, I don't think that's him. I think this is my painful thought. I don't think this was Alec. I think it's a different Baldwin family. I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hate so stubbornly is because they sense once the hate is gone, they will be forced to deal with pain.
Dylan:Classic misdirection. See it all the time.
Brad:Yeah, yeah so she gives a couple of examples. I don't even know if I wanna read this example, because it's it, it well, the quote won't make sense if there's no context now.
Dylan:So you gotta either use that one or your own.
Brad:No, the one, I'll read it. This is one of those where it's like sharing your pain makes connections.
Dylan:I feel like hey, I just didn't have a good Friday. Somebody come talk to me.
Brad:Yeah, this is definitely way worse than that, oh no, so we don't condone this behavior.
Dylan:Do we have to read it?
Brad:I mean we're here.
Dylan:Okay, this was.
Brad:I was trying to remember. So this was written by a husband and his wife was killed in the Bataquan Theater in Paris in that attack. That was in 2015. So that was when all those it was a bunch of mini attacks. Several of them happened in France, a couple of them were vans, or you drove over crowds of people. I think there was also the Christmas market, wasn't? There was something there. There was also a shooting. I think it was a shooting in like a cafe area. All of those happened, I don't know, within it seemed like within months of each other, and so his wife was killed in that theater with 88 other people, and two days after the attacks, in an open letter to his wife's killers, he posted this on Facebook.
Brad:So I'm just going to read this verbatim On Friday night, you stole the life of an exceptional being, the love of my life, the mother of my son, but you will not have my hate. I don't know who you are and I don't want to know you are dead souls. If that God, for whom you blindly kill, made us in his image, every bullet in my wife's body will have been a wound in his heart. So no, I will not give you the satisfaction of hating you. That is what you want. But to respond to your hate with anger would be to yield to the same ignorance that made you what you are. You want me to be scared, to see my fellow citizens through suspicious eyes, to sacrifice my freedom for security. You have failed. I will not change. There are only two of us, my son and myself, but we are stronger than all the armies of the world. Anyway, I don't have any more time to waste on you, as I must go to see Melville, who is waking up from his nap. He's only 17 months old. He will eat a snack, as he does every day, then we will play as we do every day, and all his life this little boy will defy you by being happy and free, because you will not have his hate either.
Brad:Powerful, that's rough, yeah, but in the sense that if all you do is hate, you don't have to deal with the pain, right? So you're covering the pain, and the pain is what connects you to what you need most, which is that human connection to other people. So, and essentially, what he's getting at is that connection to people, that joy that we have in our lives. That's what you want to take away and to stand up against what you're doing. That's what we're gonna continue to do, that's absolutely right Is to enjoy what we have and make those connections with people.
Dylan:You did this to create more division, yeah, and that you had more to rally around on the other side, which was your own hate. Well, because if we start to hate you, then you can really you can amplify it.
Brad:That builds too, but also, and probably not in the way that, like a terrorist would think about it, but in that sense that when you get scared, what do we do? We just we talked about it last episode we're scared to have these conversations, so we drift farther and farther apart. It makes us louder.
Brad:We have less connections though, so you're not experiencing the joy and pain of other people and having that real connection. So, and the other thing that hate does is it's super easy to get into that us versus them because we want to make the other people evil. And if the other people are evil, then it's pretty easy to go war with them. I mean, this is a classic political example. I mean they've been doing this for since, you know, since humanity. It's gotta be, it's gotta be.
Dylan:This reminds me of when Chappelle does Blackbush and they start to. They start to show a little bit of civil unrest in the Middle East, and he was like me and my cabinet here feel like this this area is ripe for regime change. And it's just like, oh okay, we're just gonna. We're just gonna change the regime real fast. So it's yeah, it's.
Brad:we want to start dehumanizing, so we want to talk about people that aren't worthy of the same treatment as what quote unquote good humans are.
Brad:And that rhetoric starts changing into something where we see it as a conflict between either people that are not as moral as ourselves or downright dangerous. And then it's super easy to just say this is good versus evil. This idea is good, this one is evil, that's it. And then here we go, we're into that false dichotomy of you can be on this side or the other side, that's it. And then she, she gives a I mean, obviously there we talked about a little bit in previous about what happened during World War II and the dehumanization of the Jewish culture and she gives a more modern example of the black lives matters which sparked a whole bunch of Facebook profile frames. It was like black lives matter, blue lives matter, all lives matter. And then there's I'm sure there's more Created a lot of boxes, which is kind of ironic.
Dylan:They create a lot of boxes.
Brad:Yeah, that people didn't like.
Dylan:No.
Brad:No, I don't think anybody liked the boxes, Would you?
Dylan:equality we shouldn't create. Should equality create boxes?
Brad:Yeah, but the black lives matter wasn't really. It wasn't really a cry for I would say a quality outright. It was a cry for eyes to be seen on the inequalities that were happening and obviously that leads to improving things so that there is a more equitable situation. But if you don't recognize the problem in the first place, it's kind of hard to have solutions.
Dylan:Yeah, but there was some bad marketing there, so here's how the argument goes.
Brad:People say, well, yeah, black lives matter, but blue lives matter too. Police are important. Well, yeah. And then people say, well, just all lives matter. Can't we just say that all lives matter? And what she says is if it's the case that we can care about citizens and the police, shouldn't the rallying cry just be all lives matter? No, because the humanity wasn't stripped from all lives the way it was stripped from the lives of black citizens. In order for slavery to work, in order for us to buy, sell, beat and trade people like animals, americans had to completely dehumanize slaves.
Dylan:Absolutely.
Brad:The system doesn't work unless so when you say, when you say no, no, no, no, no, it's not black lives matters, it's all lives matters. We're saying that everyone had the exact same plot and life coming up Play.
Dylan:Plot line Plot line Plite would be like a Don't say plite again.
Brad:Okay, I like that why? Because it feels like a plate that's flying. Huh, you're not bad. Yeah, so thatit brings intothere's a lot of nuances in that right, like, yeah, do we need a police force?
Dylan:Yeah.
Brad:What do youhas there been some bad things that have happened? Yeah, have we done horrible things to giant groups of people in this country? Yeah, and you want to just pick a three-letter bumper sticker that just kind of wipes a lot of that shit away and not get into the wilderness and the details of all of that shit, rupro, and that's kind of a problem. So that's athat, specifically, is a really strong visceral sensation, right, it carries a lot of weight, it's relatable to a lot of people on all sides of that front, and so it makes you emotionally almost want to take a side, right, and so it makes it that much harder to kind of wade into that wilderness.
Dylan:That's an interesting take, which is when something becomes so powerful and she touches on this a little bit if you're not fully versed, the insecurity of your lack of knowledge forces you to take those sides, because that's where you get your protection, because you have a feeling towards one way or the other, and so there's poweror you're around, or you're around. There's power in numbers, and it does, because you don't take the time to research or to learn about what your feelings are.
Brad:And then yeah, and that comes up. So kind of how the masses start isso.
Dylan:After this she kind of lays out Easy button yeah. And she's ready to hit the hard button right now which has never been. You think when Staples goes out of business we can buy the easy button, moniker.
Brad:No, I have a really bad joke going through my head right now. Okay, not gonna say it, but after she kind of lays this argument out, is there tension and vulnerability in supporting both the police and the activists? Hell, yes, she says it's the motherfucking wilderness. It just is Like you know what, yeah, I support good police, and you know what? The Black Lives Matter movement also, yes. And then I think some people's heads just start. I don't know if the smoke coming out the ears is the right thing or just the heads exploding, because there's so many people that are just like you can't fucking do both.
Dylan:Is that like the Kingsmen, when all the heads start exploding?
Brad:I haven't seen that movie.
Dylan:Don't give me that. Look, god, what I know about you is you would love that movie. That'sokay.
Brad:I believe you Okay. Also, we need cameras so people could have seen the face that you just made at me.
Dylan:You keep telling me we're not allowed to have cameras, and then you change your mind randomly and then you're like oh, Dylan wants cameras.
Brad:You just made the look like I just smacked your cat across the face with a giant dildo.
Dylan:No, that beer is in London. What? Hmm, london, yeah, the clash London calling. I'm doing it to you again.
Brad:Yeah, I know, I fucking hate it, dude. You see now, everyone Did you doGod.
Dylan:See, everyone's going to get it. Now they're like oh Dylan, this is funny. That's not true? I'm not that funny.
Brad:Yeah, it's funny when you annoy me.
Dylan:Yeah, can you learn to talk into the microphone? It's right here by my face.
Brad:No, but it's directional. You can't just like no, no, no, no, no, no. You said this wasn't a directional mic. I thought we got over this yeah, nobody wants to hear about how shitty I do things. So, yeah, that's where you really got to kind of start wading into the shit. As they say, it's uncomfortable, but it is uncomfortable because right out of the game.
Dylan:What happens if you don't talk about it? The same thing, Same thing that's happening right now.
Brad:Yeah, and also it's like what are our options? Like what happens to her when she comes up with a topic and she doesn't know about it. What she does, she starts researching it. So in my head I'm thinking okay, I know at least some history about black history and everything that has happened up to this point, and I also understand that there is some sort of enforcement needed to run civilized society I can just start with. So in some sense there is support for each of these sides, because I know this to be true. And then I think there's also this part Like I think, if we just totally do away with no authority, yeah, I don't know that that's great either. Now, is there a whole lot of nuance in all of that where, no, I support everything as it is exactly today. Yeah, that's problematic. So she also talks about the gun debate. In that sense, that's always a fun one. Hey, do you love it? No, no, you don't love the gun debate.
Dylan:No, I'm in the resort, not the wilderness. I don't know what that means. I'm in the all. I got margaritas. I got nice beach. Why would I want to be in the jungle?
Brad:Well, just because it's complicated.
Dylan:Yeah, you know, I got lost in the jungle in Vietnam once. Oh, you did do that. Yeah, google Maps and a motorcycle was amazing. How'd you find your way out?
Brad:Just believed in yourself. There was a little of that. You do that when you get lost.
Dylan:No.
Brad:You start questioning did I miss that turn? I'm just going to go two more miles.
Dylan:So there are roads on the Google Maps that you had and this was back in 2013?, no 2014. So, but they're like you're on a road and you're like I see that you say I'm on a road, but I've got jungle canopy a foot above my head and it's really just a dirt single track man for mountain bikes. But yeah, I'm on a road. Yeah, this is this is going somewhere.
Brad:Yeah, yeah. So that is so to end this, and this chapter is the. The people are hard to hate. Close up moving.
Dylan:She has a Conversation, I guess it's an interview, Not really a conversation. Then interrogator yeah it's a tear. It's conversation.
Brad:She's asking her questions with a clinical professor objection. And the Brené says sometimes and I get overwhelmed my default is to agree, to disagree, so and shut it down. So we're just, we're not gonna get any farther with this. And so she asks this lady, that is, what is she? She's clinical professor of leadership of Management at Northwestern University, my shell buck, michelle buck.
Dylan:Sorry, thank you.
Brad:I mean yeah, and she says, people often silence themselves or agree to disagree without fully exploring the actual nature of the disagreement, for the sake of protecting a relationship and maintaining connection. But when we avoid certain conversations and never fully learn how the other person feels about all of the issues, we sometimes end up making assumptions that not only perpetuate but deepen misunderstandings that can generate resentment.
Dylan:Hmm.
Brad:So it's a little bit about that. That first quote we talked about last episode, where you don't tell a kid something, they're gonna make up their own stuff. When you just shut down the conversation and don't get at, maybe particularly why you feel so strongly about a certain topic, a lot of times it's not about the topic itself. It could be about an underlying issue or an underlying emotion or something that has happened Specifically to them.
Dylan:How many times have you been in therapy?
Brad:Zero.
Dylan:Next where no where they'll say you know, how are you feeling, what are you feeling about this? And then you always you know you kind of answer. This is, this is how I feel about a certain situation Uncomfortable, but then they'll go, you'll think you're gonna continue on down the path of you know what that train of thought is, and then they'll interrupt and be like why do you think you feel that way? It's always the why. You know it's not okay. We just don't just say how you're feeling, because sometimes you feel things without understanding why you're feeling them. It's now that you've expressed how you feel. Why do we think we're feeling this way? Yeah, why. What? You know, if we really dig into it, what is going on around us, what are the extenuating circumstances, what are the what are the influences?
Brad:What is so when my wife tells me a specific thing and I get irate and shut down? I don't like that feeling.
Dylan:I don't know if this is and then she goes.
Brad:Why do you think you feel that way? Like what? What is this? I have to, I have to pay to figure out my own answers, but guess what? Yeah that's fucking therapy. Yeah, you're like, oh yeah, Then you gotta think about it.
Dylan:I don't feel like I'm loved and I don't feel like people want to be around me, and then I'm gonna be alone. I never said that. Oh, that's just me.
Brad:Hey, that's. It would be interesting to see how different I Bet they're more similar than you think they might be sometimes, so that's.
Dylan:It's important to understand why other people feel ways, though it's not just how do you feel it's, why do you feel that way? Yes, so there might there's, there's, like we've talked about there a lot of times. There are actually valid circumstances from the feel, the way they feel be curious, not judgmental. That's what that's, not all women.
Brad:Not, but not by what? Women, but the quote itself. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, ask ask some. Why questions? I mean if somebody, if you went to a Political rally and you went up and start interviewing people, because we've all seen these clips, right?
Brad:Oh yeah, and they just what do you like about so-and-so? And they'll usually give you a couple things and then you say why? And then everyone just kind of stops him interview over. It's a lot harder question, mm-hmm, and it requires some actual real thought absolutely so yeah, ask a little bit of the why.
Dylan:Looks like we're gonna get in a multi part. Oh, multi part, multi part.
Brad:Three parter. We will be back with re exploring the. I don't know, maybe maybe one of our favorite chapters.
Dylan:I think I you know.
Brad:The whole book.
Dylan:We I think we agree is great, but the this one coming up We've talked about this one the most out of all, but I think which is Speaking truth. The bullshit will be our next episode, but it's it. It resonates, especially as we discuss how we're getting louder and further away. This might be the most Amplificate, this might be one of the most amplifying factors in those scenarios. So you know how do we turn down the noise.
Brad:You know we might be able to do it by Speaking truth the bullshit this when you actually get into interpersonal Relationships, I feel like this is the thing that really starts to.
Dylan:Push the divide and it's and when you start to recognize the bullshit and it's different than you know what are come. You know what we commonly refer to as bullshit. You see it pop up in so many seemingly menial and in you know tiny ways, and then you see it in the big, grandiose ways as well. But it, when you can start to recognize this, it really helps you understand. Okay, we got to remove ourselves for a second, we know, we know, we know there's a big, there's, there's some insecurities on the backside here and we're not gonna get anywhere.
Brad:So I'm gonna do what you all think I want to do. So we will get back to that and then it's gonna end up with you know, how do we, how do we share in some of the, the personal connections and kind of regain that Human bond between all of us, and then we'll end carpet bomb, we'll end with our sorry carpet bomb crews.
Dylan:You remember that crew is just like I'm gonna carpet bomb the Middle East and make it glow hot, like oh, the sand was gonna glow hot. Nice, you're like Ted, that's not very nuanced.
Brad:Hey, fun, fun little fact. If you guys are by a phone or a computer right now, which you obviously are Google, ted Cruz is real full name. It's fun little tidbit so.
Dylan:Yeah, all right, thanks for listening. Thank you. We'll see you next episode.
Brad:You're still here.
Dylan:It's over go home oh go.