Discover how to push past the comfortable plateau of regular practice and into the realm of true expertise. Through laughter and lively banter, we'll share why Angela Duckworth's grit and the famed 10,000-hour rule are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to achieving excellence, whether you're on the sports field, in the office, or tackling life's hurdles.
Ever wondered how world-class athletes continue to raise the bar, or what separates a good TED Talk from a great one? It's not just about putting in the hours; it's about the right kind of hours. We'll reveal the power of setting stretch goals, the art of effective napping (yes, it’s a thing!), and the undeniable importance of embracing our fears and failures with a smile. Martin provides his razor-sharp insights, while we throw in anecdotes that prove personal growth is not just about focused effort, but also about enjoying the ride.
Wrapping up, we dive into the mental fortitude of legends like Tiger Woods and uncover the delicate balance between dedication and obsession. Coaching, feedback, and the value of a fresh perspective take center stage as we recount experiences that changed the game for us—and could for you too. Tune in for a captivating blend of motivation, strategy, and humor that might just be the nudge you need to tackle your next big challenge.
Discover how to push past the comfortable plateau of regular practice and into the realm of true expertise. Through laughter and lively banter, we'll share why Angela Duckworth's grit and the famed 10,000-hour rule are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to achieving excellence, whether you're on the sports field, in the office, or tackling life's hurdles.
Ever wondered how world-class athletes continue to raise the bar, or what separates a good TED Talk from a great one? It's not just about putting in the hours; it's about the right kind of hours. We'll reveal the power of setting stretch goals, the art of effective napping (yes, it’s a thing!), and the undeniable importance of embracing our fears and failures with a smile. Martin provides his razor-sharp insights, while we throw in anecdotes that prove personal growth is not just about focused effort, but also about enjoying the ride.
Wrapping up, we dive into the mental fortitude of legends like Tiger Woods and uncover the delicate balance between dedication and obsession. Coaching, feedback, and the value of a fresh perspective take center stage as we recount experiences that changed the game for us—and could for you too. Tune in for a captivating blend of motivation, strategy, and humor that might just be the nudge you need to tackle your next big challenge.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Terribly Unoblivious. On today's episode, we are joined by our friend Martin, the ruthless villain, to discuss deliberate practice and why it differs from just regular practice. This includes developing a growth mindset and discussing what grit is and is not. I also figured out how to use the soundpads on our mixer and some hilarity ensues. This is Terribly Unoblivious. Episode 23,. Ted says it's practice.
Brad:Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again Life moves pretty fast, you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
Martin:See, I'm just schmutzin' it up.
Dylan:Are you a tribbler or a?
Brad:shooter. To be fair, yeah, more of a ball handler Back to back the ball skills.
Dylan:Yeah, good for you. So we're back, man. It's been what? A week two since we've been in the audience.
Brad:I don't know, I don't know In the audience on the podcast.
Dylan:Where have you been Places you want to talk about our guest today, the only guest we've ever had beside your wife. This, yeah, you don't sound excited for Martin at all. That's amazing. He even brought a laptop. This time he's prepared.
Brad:He is prepared. That's actually why I brought him. So Martin the ruthless villain is back, and today we're talking about practice and this is coming from what I was into. Martin's into a different book, has read some other stuff, read the same book and some more things. So I'm going through Grit by Angela Duckworth right now, and this is. We may do a few more things on this, but this one in particular, I think, is a important notion for improvement of any kind.
Dylan:So we talked about this last time. This is when you were just getting into it.
Brad:Yeah, I don't remember that episode. I hadn't got this far into it, but it's something that I talk about. I mean, you probably talk about it with your team at work. Yeah, okay, I'm sure you do. You're like setting specific goals and how to attain those goals and working towards those goals. We aimlessly work, you just aimlessly do.
Dylan:Okay, so that's where we're talking about You're attained on the wall and you will come out of the maze.
Martin:Yeah, and make sure with that would be tough love too at work, right Like you got to have people that are going to do everything and anything they can to try to solve the problem and then when they can't, then they're going to probably lead into other colleagues help them out. So that's part of it.
Brad:Yeah, but tough love is going to be on our sex episode, which will be later, so we're not going to get into that right now.
Martin:Did we get Dr Drew for that? Yeah?
Brad:I'm going to be Dr Drew. Okay, I don't know if you know this, guys, but I'm going to be doing impressions, just non-stop. Now that's going to be my new thing. They're going to be terrible and you're going to love them. So tell your friends, tell them to email me a email.
Dylan:That doesn't work, dr Drew. Right, we can do it. We're going to be able to do a nice. We're going to be able to do a nice Adobe audition voice modulator on that. I can't wait. Cool, what's that? I don't know. It's like what we did for hot takes. Okay.
Brad:Hot takes. Oh wow, hey, I see you got three buttons there.
Dylan:No luck. Dylan did some research at his all time.
Brad:Okay, okay, I like that. Yeah, so this is Angela Duckworth and Grit is the book the power of passion and perseverance. So there's multiple parts to her grit. So if you have questions along the way, martin, because you are aware of these things, feel free to ask away Because we're not going to touch on everything that she does. This is just one chapter of this book, and that chapter is called practice.
Dylan:But today we're talking Is this like when you love some of so much but you didn't mean to hit them, no, okay.
Brad:No, what's that? Nothing. That's a different kind of passion. I went to a party about passion one time. Did you buy anything?
Dylan:No, I was really weird. I heard they have great lotions oh okay, I'm going to skip that part. Okay. So why don't you go in your diatribe now and tell us all about the book?
Brad:It's not just practice, guys. It's deliberate practice, which is different than regular practice. Martin, tell us how it's different. Just kidding, what is deliberate practice? So you guys have heard of the 10,000 hour rule. Yeah, I'm going to give an opportunity to talk. No, fuck you guys. Okay, go for it.
Dylan:Brad, I love this. I'm changing this to the Brad show. Just a glorified disc jockey.
Martin:I'm just a right along person.
Brad:So this chapter kind of starts out with the fact that there is a level the experts reach through amount of time on task. So one of those famous rules is that 10,000 hour rule, famously written by that's why you're here Andres Ericsson. Well, that's different, but he brings it up.
Martin:He brings up the fact of deliberate practice and the preceding topics around that, but before that you have outliers with Malcolm. Well, there's, there's some debate around the 10,000 hour rule, but you're going to probably going to talk about that so is.
Brad:It is deliberate practice, just more time practicing, that's. That's the question that we're trying to answer. Is there a difference between doing something intensely and focused and, dare I say, deliberate towards a goal, or just? To use the word in the definition sort of yeah, wow, okay, okay, think of another word Ready Go.
Dylan:This isn't my podcast Intentional. It's a good word.
Brad:Yes, it's like my intentional feelings.
Martin:Oh geez, what and how are they today? They hurt. Why Did we hurt them?
Brad:Maybe I am expecting it.
Dylan:Jesus, our mics are loud today. We just haven't done this for a while.
Brad:So it's. It is quantity versus quality of time, and so the 10,000 hour thing kind of comes from an Andrews Erickson in his book peak also talks about this. There is a general understanding that people that that basically practice something about 1000 hours a year to become expert level, and this is across several domains. Okay, so this is like interviews with experts of all kinds. They typically say about 10 years is how long it takes to develop the skills needed to be what you would call like a world class expert. So that's kind of where that 10,000 hour rule came from.
Dylan:Essentially, this veers off from range a tiny bit, though. Oh yeah, we'll get to that too. Okay, sorry, no, but yeah, I didn't get the schedule ahead of time kids?
Brad:No, yeah, it, 100% does. So it's, they're going to butt heads a bit. Okay, so so, and and that, specifically, is where these other chapters come into it, right?
Dylan:So from grit or from from grit?
Brad:Yes, so if you have questions being like yeah, but you guys talked about range and that was about generalists, not specified. You know spending all this time in one specific area or just as lost as you guys are we're going to get there.
Dylan:Okay, okay, do we have answers or just more questions? A little bit of both love it. Honestly, it's again just put the left hand on the wall and just get out of the maze, or the right hand on the mic.
Brad:Think about it, it's not bad. This would be a lot better if you guys had cameras.
Dylan:but yeah, well, you don't. Okay, piggy banks empty.
Brad:So they're they. She also brings up a it's kaizen. There's a lot of Japanese stuff around lately it is In my head, not in general, just in my head. Okay, and this is a. It's essentially a continuous improvement. That's very famous business model in Japan as well. So deliberate practice is that's kind of how we're going to think about it is a way going forward to methodically work towards goals for specific improvement. Yes, the best way to do it.
Dylan:So an easy analogy for the audience is a sports analogy. You know, practice can be anything, be anything in life, but a sports analogy. You play basketball, you just go to the gym and you aimlessly shoot the ball wherever you're at on the court, versus knowing your deficits are at the free throw line and we'll say you know three pointer from the left corner.
Dylan:Well, we should probably go to those areas and meticulously work on those independent areas right now, and like we're going to run drills on those areas, because those are my deficits right now. Oh, you weren't talking this time, I was.
Brad:That was a really quiet one. Yeah, she knew she knew. Yeah, yes, so that's yeah, you're 100% right, that's exactly where we're going. Even before that, do you? Do you understand?
Dylan:your shooting form? Do you understand your weaknesses? Are you taking stats to understand that? Yeah, yes so the.
Brad:She has a graph in here that kind of explains world class versus mid range, versus basically a dropout right. So it's essentially a learning curve, time on task. So everybody essentially starts off at a more time you spend on tasks, the more increase in skill you get right. And then there becomes this plateau sort of effect.
Dylan:There's a diver, there's a divergence.
Brad:Let's say an obstacle, let's say a hardship, let's say a struggle, right. So everybody meets something that maybe is not very easy to them.
Dylan:Maybe Odysseus gets lost at C. Okay, okay, maybe, having thrown out a Homer reference in a while, World class experts continue improvement, and not by accident.
Brad:So this is what she's going to get into is how do they set that up? A more typical person will have what she calls a rested development. So, again, just like the world class expert, initially they will see an increase in skill level and then it will dramatically taper off and level off, and so that could be. I think an example is think of someone like you work in an office, or if you've worked with someone in the past, someone that obviously developed enough skill to get into that career path and then just stagnated for like 20 years. So, essentially, can you get 20 years of experience or do you get one year of experience?
Martin:20 times is how she defines it Right, and that's the same thing in teaching too, yeah yeah, which sucks for kids because you get one teacher that's like, oh, I got my experience and I'm just going to teach the same thing and give the same test every year, versus like, hmm, how do we make this better next year?
Brad:Yes, so that's the constant improvement. And then you have a dropout, which is somebody that reaches a certain skill level and for whatever reason, ADHD but, yeah, there's a ton of reasons right.
Brad:So if you're looking at sports, you're like, oh, they hit an obstacle and then they just didn't have any grit so they dropped out. Okay, that, maybe that's one possibility. You know, the possibilities are like they had no interest in the sport, like they had no passion for it. So there's a lot of reasons for that as well. And, along with this book, grit is grit. People tend to think about it as pursuing something at all costs until you succeed, and essentially what she's getting at is yeah, there's a lot more to it than that. Like there's plenty of reasons to not do something 100 times.
Dylan:Yeah.
Dylan:And it's all goal based in the workplace. I think the where I see this the most would be. I don't know the answer there are people around me that do but I'm just going to blast through this brick wall time and time and time again just to figure it out on my own and there's something to be said about figuring it out on your own because that does teach you. But at some point You've got resources. Go use those other resources. You don't need to have someone do it for you, but have them let you drive while they walk you through it, and I've seen so many people who are like you spent seven hours doing what. Today? We have documentation on this that was drawn up last year by someone else, because they went through the same thing. Oh, we do.
Brad:Why expend all your energy breaking through this wall that someone has already broken through 100 times, when you could just piggyback on people's knowledge to then try to break through this wall that hasn't been done before Get you to the next place, or whatever. But yeah, I mean, there's hard work and then there's stupid work.
Dylan:There's a waste of energy.
Brad:Yes, so there are a lot of things that go into this. So, essentially, what you got to with that basketball reference was, rather than focus on what they already do well, experts strive to improve specific weaknesses, and you see this all the time in kids and we'll get to this later why this may possibly be Like what do you do really well? Oh, I do this thing really well. What do you do all the time? I do this thing that I do really well all the time. That's what I do Do you do anything else.
Brad:No, I don't want to do anything else. I do this really well. So, kebby, you suck real hard at a bunch of stuff. Too late to put them down.
Dylan:Softly real talk. This is where you're going.
Brad:So that's where the expert level comes in. They want a need to know what their weaknesses are and how to overcome those Root them out get rid of them.
Martin:But the big caveat with deliberate practice is that you need that feedback, and if you're an individual striving to improve, how does one receive that feedback?
Brad:There's a lot about that too. Can you like being part of a good team, being part of a good like having a good coach? Okay, what do you do if you don't have those things? Well let me talk about the rest of the fucking podcast. Okay, Jesus, I got to lay everything out in the first five minutes 15.
Martin:Jesus, this is miscalculated there.
Brad:Yes. So experts hungrily seek feedback on how they did. Necessarily, much of that feedback is negative. This means that experts are more interested in what they did wrong, so they can fix it, than what they did right. The active processing of this feedback is as essential as it's immediacy. So you want to do something, you want to get feedback on how that was done and you want to be receptive to that feedback, right?
Brad:So an example that she had given was another guy that was doing an experiment and it was for surgeons and they were going through and testing. And so you're testing on if you're doing proper procedures on patients or not, right, and this, obviously everyone was in there. That was, they were smart, they were intelligent, and this guy was continually not doing well on it and after each time they tested, they got feedback and he just kept on and kept on and kept on until the end of the day everybody else was done, Like they had passed, they had corrected everything and he hadn't, and so he stopped him and he goes okay, the test that you just took, can you tell me things that you were almost certain of that you did correct and then things that you did not? You don't think you did well on, and when he actually reflected and thought about it, then he could receive the feedback that he'd been getting, and then next time he did, it was great, you passed done for the day.
Martin:That has to do with mindset, though. Yeah Right, and so that's another book which would be Also part of this like a growth mindset.
Brad:Growth mindset yeah, but that is that self reflection, part of the feedback where it is. You can give me feedback all you want to, but if I just don't think I'm doing anything wrong in the first place, I'm not gonna take it into consideration.
Dylan:Yeah, growth mindset encourages resilience of the mind. It's being able to be vulnerable enough to take that feedback and not take it personally, and understand that it's for me to grow.
Brad:And know that you have weaknesses.
Martin:So the bigger question might be if you're diving into this direction of having grit in your life and applying deliberate practice to improve, you'd probably want to have to start with ensuring that you have, or trying to develop an open mindset, because obviously the surgeon didn't Correct. So how does one do that? How does one develop An open mindset to be receptive to feedback, because it is difficult for not only the youth but still adults to this day.
Brad:So I think initially what she would and this goes back to an earlier chapter, but this is all goal oriented, okay.
Brad:So she talks about top level goals, mid level goals and low level goals, right, so what ends up happening is when you ask people what their goals in life are, they'll start telling you some random shit, and most of them are lower, mid level goals, so they're not all necessarily working towards one top thing. And she also specifies like you may very well have two top level goals, like hers is to be the top level researcher, and everything she does professionally works towards that goal, and then she also has a family life that she is trying to excel at, and so, in that sense, everything she's trying to do and in that term, is geared towards that. If you don't have those, you end up maybe wasting time on things that don't matter. So, like that scenario that you were talking about, where the guy's banging his head against the wall for a needed amount of time, is that working towards his overall goal? I don't know. If it's not, then that's not a worthwhile time. So that's an important topic, which is-.
Dylan:I like how she frames the different levels of goals, because if you don't have a, we'll call that top level goal a guiding light. Where do you know you're going? You don't have a compass, you don't have a, and so many people try to start backwards and work themselves forward to getting somewhere. It's like no, no, no, no At the end of the day or at the end of five years. Where do you want to be? Yes, and now you need to backwards, you need to reverse engineer it.
Dylan:You need to start working backwards, okay. So, if that's what I want, what's the step right before that? Okay, that's that. What's it take to do to get to that right before that? And then you work all the way back to like to even the micro, which is okay, I want to. You know, you can use the bodybuilder analogy. I want to grow muscle so I'm like, well, I probably shouldn't go out and party with my friends right now.
Dylan:It's a perfect analogy, though, because no, but it is you want to gain 30 pounds of muscle, You're like, and I want to be. You know, 4% body fat, You're like okay well, I probably should choose to go sleep and let my body rest tonight, wake up, go to the gym versus oh, I can go have four or five beers with whomever tonight, and then, you know, be a little should.
Brad:You can't do that. So that's why, looking at expert level and taking their stories, it's almost easier to see, because if you are a top level, anything the margin for no time can be wasted.
Dylan:is every decision has to be so much smaller?
Brad:So yeah, you can't. You can't just go drink six beers Like you. You can't miss a workout. You can't be 50 grams down on your protein.
Dylan:Like Sam Allen used to be the CEO of John Deere, I had some knew, some people that were slightly just acquaintances with them, and they were. They were talking to him one time. He said if I don't get my kids' birthdays on my calendars two years in advance, john Deere will book my day and I will not see my kids on that day or I will not have time to make a phone call to them.
Dylan:And it's like when you're that top level CEO or you know, or in sports, it's your life's already planned that far out, because you don't have any wasted you don't have any extra time.
Brad:Her example was a baseball pitcher that they had interviewed, and he's like everything, everything in my life comes down to this how do I make this the best? And so that's my training and my nutrition and what I do, and what I do for fun, and how much time I'm here and how much time I'm with my family. And are there sacrifices? Yeah, 100%, but this is my goal, this is what I want to do, and everything underneath that works towards that, because anything that doesn't is taking me away from that goal, and essentially, that's what the grit is Is can you keep doing these things that are sometimes mundane or sometimes frustrating, or that will get into things that you aren't able to do? Can you keep doing them over and over again until you get them and continue improving towards that goal? And that's what grit is.
Martin:What's interesting, though with grit because with her Anders Ericsson was kind of like her mentor there's a little bit of a sidetrack to it that we probably should introduce to the audience, and that is the fact that you can't just power through one certain thing to improve on, because you're gonna go back to Dylan's situation where you have that one personnel that's banging their head. You have to remove yourself from that specific situation, go do something else and then return back to it, and that go to something else is improve in a different area and something else and then go back to where you need to focus and improve on that specific thing.
Brad:Okay. So also, I don't know if I put this in here anywhere else Where's note taker ever? I know we'll get to it later, but deliberate practice is different than any other type of practice in the sense that it is intentionally hard, that you are super focused on something, most likely that you are either not good at or you cannot complete currently. That's the whole point of deliberate practice, and so, for that sake, they say an hour max at a time is a good timeframe. So you're not gonna sit there and do like a two hour deliberate practice. So if we're talking about youth sports and you're like, oh, deliberate practice is the way to go, I'm gonna do two hours of it. If you're doing it right, you can't do it. You're gonna lose them. And it doesn't matter what it is. It could be mental, there's fatigue at some point, oh yeah, oh, it's physical and mental.
Brad:Yeah, I mean they talk about like why top level performers take naps on a regular basis, Like that's part of the reason is deliberate practice.
Martin:You guys nap. Yeah, oh, 25 minutes no well lunch.
Brad:Lunch is for sissies. It's in the book. What's that for?
Dylan:When? Oh no, you're gonna test me.
Brad:That's Wall Street, oh yeah.
Martin:So maximum. So for the audience, maximum time is 25 minutes max, if you're gonna nap.
Brad:I don't understand napping.
Martin:It's possible. You can train your body to do it.
Brad:So if you read the book when by Dan Pink, and he tells you it's like peeing upside down, you can do it.
Martin:It's just difficult. Anyone can do that.
Brad:What it's possible.
Dylan:Somebody told me it was hard Peeing upside down.
Brad:I spent a lot of time.
Martin:You deliberately practice how to pee upside down. Yeah, it's hard.
Dylan:I'm gonna see that deliberate practice session. No, you don't. You went for four hours, not one hour. That was your problem. You got fatigued? No, I did. Oh, the blood rush to your head. Right now it's the guy in the cave. Oh, don't, I need the cave image.
Brad:Don't do it, I'm gonna share the cave image on socials. You're not gonna practice. You understand me, practice, practice. Oh, we're talking about practice. Everybody knows Dylan loves caves. So there's an image and it's not funny because somebody did die. Somebody died, okay, somebody died in a cave.
Martin:I do have a question, dylan how are elevators for you with, like, lots of people, no problem. Okay, it's not a cave. Well, it's still. It's claustrophobic. You're in a box, it's going up and down. There could be a lot of people.
Dylan:No, I don't get claustrophobic in the traditional sense. I just don't like big heavy.
Brad:You just don't like dying under thousands of tons of rock.
Dylan:Okay, I'm a broader human being. Anyways, I'm a broader human being, I don't need to be testing the limits.
Brad:Me and Martin decided that this is gonna be the new meme, for you're just having a bad day, me. No, anybody oh okay, we're gonna try to get this started, so we're just gonna share the picture of the animation of the guy upside down in the cave where he dies, which is not funny.
Dylan:cause he died?
Brad:So bad, but you know Britt's gonna be on it and she'll love it.
Dylan:She'll start sharing it. And now I know what other pad I need. I need the. Did you die?
Brad:But did you die?
Dylan:It's so bad, these pads are gonna be my new favorite thing in the whole world, so do you guys wanna know how to do deliberate practice? Yeah, Cause she tells you, walk me through it. All right, first step.
Martin:Oh, is that a thing? Mm-hmm.
Dylan:No, this is an update.
Martin:Oh, that was a key pad.
Brad:Thank you, Keep going. First step know the science. That's it. You just got into the science of it, oh and we're done, yep.
Martin:Okay.
Dylan:Wrap it.
Brad:Next and we're out. Okay, so the basic requirements of deliberate practice A clearly defined stretch goal, right? So, on her hierarchy of goals, there's low, mid and then your top level. A stretch goal is something that is going to miss her? Uh, not quite. Maybe actually he's, you know, but it's not a miss.
Dylan:So it's, there's, it's. It's a long that line, though, like you, you can't, you can't do it. This is like a long form.
Brad:So you can't do it or you can't do it reliably right now.
Dylan:Okay, it's a long form, so you have a high rate of failure of trying to become the best in the world. That's some, whatever you're doing.
Brad:That's the top level goal is definitely a miss Of your life.
Dylan:Long form, yes, okay, so I said long form, a stretch. Go listen to me, I have feelings and validation needs as well.
Martin:Yes.
Dylan:Okay, garse on another.
Brad:Garse.
Dylan:Garse means boy. It's also a very derogatory term for a movie.
Brad:Pulp fiction. All right, yes.
Dylan:I know, okay, royale cheese, go for it. I love that you haven't cracked your bubbler yet. You're just like I'm going to drink. I'm going to drink these beers, so stretch goal it is.
Brad:it is a I don't even want to say short term goal, because it could take you a while right, $10,000. So it's if you're looking to be the best 400 meter runner in the world genetics. It's going to help. It's going to help. But she would also say effort counts twice over talent. Yeah, but that's not on the paper. Don't read it.
Dylan:No, it is, I have it right here. No, it's not yeah. It's right here no HGH, so set a stretch goal Talent, talent, stretch goal Talent times effort you go. Skill, skill times effort you go to achievement. Wow, look at you.
Martin:You're so smart.
Dylan:Don't get pissed. I'm going to get pissed why? Just because I know things and you don't. Yeah.
Martin:Get pissed Brad.
Brad:So first you got to have a goal, a stretch goal.
Martin:Well, at the same time, do you want to talk about how? How do we develop our goals? Do you want to talk to them? To the mic, Maybe?
Brad:I don't know if he's picking anything up.
Dylan:No.
Martin:There you go.
Brad:Do we want to talk about what? Well, how do people set up goals? How do you set up goals? Mm, hmm.
Martin:Are you going to do like the warm buffet type goals, like I'm going to write down 25 and then you know circle the five that are going to go for? Okay?
Brad:So you want me to just do the whole book?
Martin:No, maybe.
Dylan:But you're skipping over key, key moments right now. You're not giving people, you're not giving the audience. That is terribly unablivious, the tool sets. You're just kind of If they're terribly unablivious.
Brad:they're probably somewhat aware of what they're passionate about. Okay, which? Is another chapter.
Dylan:Assuming a whole lot. I am, I am.
Martin:Testing your assumptions.
Brad:But can deliberate practice make you good at anything, not just your top level shining light goal? That wasn't the question.
Dylan:Yes, it can, so can you apply it to a lot?
Brad:of parts of your life. You fucking bet you. That wasn't the question.
Dylan:The question was how are you going to ask that, how are you going to tell the audience about how to identify, define goals, and how do you go about that?
Brad:What is something that you want to do.
Dylan:I want a curly fry and a chocolate shake.
Brad:Just one curly fry. Do you have money for that? Yeah, okay. Do you have a car? Yeah Okay. Then fuck off with your stupid goals. Okay, you got it. You got it, you win. So why are you so?
Dylan:angry.
Brad:I just because I love stupid questions. That's my favorite. A stretch goal is something. It's a good question that you cannot do right now, that with practice you can do. So, martin, oh, you're pointing fingers at me. I'm not. I'm going to ask you a question.
Dylan:The hand. Talk to the hand we use the term it's smart, Brad.
Brad:I can't kick a. They're smart. I cannot kick a soccer ball. Okay, very well. A stretch goal for me, say for this spring, would be to practice kicking a soccer ball. I want to hit top right corner on a somewhat regular basis If I want to.
Dylan:Okay, okay, all right, it's smart or it's specific. Sorry, it's specific. It's measurable, it's smart oh it's achievable. I have a smart goal again. It's relevant. You can't do that and it's time bound. Why not All right?
Brad:So it's something that.
Dylan:I can't.
Brad:It is something that I can't do right now.
Dylan:Are you going to put a time?
Brad:I don't have a time limit on it. Okay, because I would hit smart, be smart.
Dylan:It's a smart goal Smart, specific, measurable, achievable and relevant.
Brad:So I know that if I go out and I kick a ball and I kick it 10 times, I suck, and then if I kick it like 50 more times, you suck even more, I suck somewhat less. So I am aware that just with some practice like, I'm able to improve. So now can I have someone that is knowledgeable about watching my form and what I'm doing wrong and giving me feedback? Can I then adapt and adjust whatever I'm doing so that I can become a better kicker?
Dylan:Probably not.
Brad:Okay, Sorry.
Dylan:Martin's the expert here.
Brad:Not at the fair point, yeah.
Martin:I mean there's two ways.
Brad:Hey can we break it down. I'm not talking about 40 yards, I'm talking about like 15 yards on a kid goal. Yeah, okay, I got faith in you.
Dylan:I got faith in you.
Brad:I don't want to put a. I don't want to put a ton of spin on it. You want to put?
Martin:I'm not going over top of dummies, I just want to hit it where I want to hit it.
Brad:That's it. Okay, that's a stretch goal for me, okay. Okay, that's something that I think that I can achieve. That I need some feedback on that, with some deliberate practice, where I go out there and let me tell you when you're practicing something that you suck at, it's not fun. No, yeah, I agree, that's also a part of deliberate practice. Great, but there's some debate on that. So, like deliberate practice, when they so, one of the big things that they studied was people that were in the national spelling bee, and then they talk about the different ways that they practice. So, are you reading for fun? Are you doing this? Are you and the people that did more deliberate practice, which was harder practice? So what do I suck at, like, what specific kinds of words do I have problems with, or what from what origin, or?
Dylan:Not a good Italian speller. Yeah, pretty good and such though.
Brad:So they would go down that rabbit hole of practicing this.
Martin:But like back up real, real quick.
Brad:Yes, reading, just like reading books or literally reading the dictionary, no, like reading books, oh okay, so like that's practice that introduces you to vocabulary.
Dylan:You're seeing a lot of words, but it wasn't, because you have to have context, because words are obviously.
Brad:We know that, but it had no overall factor on who performed high and who performed low. But the people that did deliberate practice which were things that were much harder and that weren't necessarily fun because they weren't good at it right performed significantly higher, like all the top performers. So when I go out and kick a ball and I kick it like a dunce 20 times in a row, I don't like doing it, but if my goal is to say my overall goal is to be a better soccer player, well then I got to learn how to kick a fucking ball, don't I? So that's some of the age. That's something that I have to start striving for. Kids are going to be listening to this. Yeah, you should, because you can't kick a ball either. You like that?
Dylan:You're just yeah, I know what you're doing. You mean coach. I know what you're doing All right.
Brad:So that's the stretch goal Full concentration and effort and we already kind of talked about this where it's the fact that you are focused on it? Think of it like we've all played baseball, right? Have you ever had somebody like dial in and be like no, you're doing this with your hands when you're trying to swing? Or golf we like golf is, I think, even more intense, like if you're trying to redo your golf swing and you're thinking about it while you're swinging fuck that that is deliberate practice.
Dylan:Swing thoughts are not a good thing.
Brad:Yeah.
Dylan:But not on the course on the range is fine.
Brad:Yes but when you're developing that, which I had to do in high school, I'm like this one's not working for me. I got to do something else. And so every time you're swinging, you're like did I do this? Did my hips turn? Didn't my hands go before my hip? What's going on? It's hard. You're like golfing is fun. And then you hit 100 balls on the range and you want to murder the.
Martin:The thing with golfing and soccer is like you, in baseball, not golfing, sorry excuse me. Baseball hitting a ball and then with golf. With baseball, you're waiting for the ball to come and golf, you just have to be patient because the ball's right there, unless it's rolling. But my point, you're not allowed to do it.
Martin:Don't tell me what to do, okay, my point to the difference between you trying to hit a soccer ball and then baseball and soccer is you have all these outside elements in soccer that are coming towards you to hit the ball or to strike the ball.
Brad:Okay, really Good Jeez. So once I complete a stretch goal, am I done? No, okay, so my first stretch goal is hitting.
Martin:Maybe Are you going to be done once you hit the upper 90? Maybe, just one time, maybe, but you just want to be all the time.
Brad:No, all the time, all the time, every time, yeah 70% of the time, but just like only on a static ball. So just when kids are like, you can't do that and I'll just be like ping. And then they're like oh, I believe you, now you can do anything. And then I don't actually know anything else. You know, I just have one trick pony. Oh, your one trick pony, yeah, okay. So I'm going to learn how to kick a ball static first.
Dylan:It's not a Gibson movie where he was like that's 100% not.
Brad:He's a good card player. Oh, maverick, maverick.
Dylan:He could draw the pistol fast, but he couldn't actually do anything else, so that's all he did, yeah.
Brad:I don't even know how you guessed that fucking movie off of that description.
Martin:Stop it Stop it.
Dylan:Why not? That was an awful description. How is that an awful?
Martin:description. It's a great description, maverick, that's when it melds Royal Flash at the end. Come on, dude.
Dylan:It's a perfect ending to the movie. Yeah, you just wanted to come in here. Bah humbuggin they were doing.
Martin:Christmas 8. For another couple months Playing cards on a steamboat in a Mississippi yeah no, I remember you sure.
Brad:Yeah, he loves Indians, doesn't really care for Jews, but you know, no, allegedly, allegedly Passion of the. Can I get back to my multiple stretch goals? I'm trying to get through, okay, step one oh step one God.
Dylan:Well, don't take shitty notes, It'll be easier next time.
Brad:So, for your dynamics of soccer, I'm going to learn how to kick a ball static first, and then, once I can do that, then I'm going to work on it rolling towards me and then I'm going to work on it rolling to the side. From what side? I'm going to work on it at a full sprint, like those are going to be separate things that I work towards.
Brad:Okay, see how you're breaking it down. Okay, and some of Maybe, once I learn the static part really well, the other ones will be slightly better. Okay, right. So obviously some things are going to be harder to learn than other things, so you're going to set some stretch goals on things you can't do. Some things might come really quick and then you move on to the next one. All right, now what's the next thing? And you're building towards that constant improvement. Okay.
Dylan:Yeah, noted Okay.
Martin:So how do people do it more? So in the workplace though. For example. You kind of had a little bit of a conundrum with setting up your recent jig and you're like, oh, I feel like I have to go back to elementary school for this. How would you explain to the audience around that, if it's relevant, because you felt like an empty a little bit?
Brad:Yeah, yeah, I did, and that's also part of this is you're going to fail. So when you fail, what do you do? Get fired Good, fire, good. That's a high level right there.
Martin:I'm really sad to see people.
Brad:Okay, I like that one a lot I don't do that. Why not?
Dylan:What are we talking about? Talking about you? You can't just throw Jordan Peterson in like that and do what I want. I'm the soundboard guy. You're the voice. We're only going to get through step one, aren't we? No, keep going, man, we'll park through. Let's make lemonade. It's going to be great.
Brad:Let's make lemonade Sweet gritty. That's true. This is great right now.
Martin:We're trying to get through a podcast. Come on, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it.
Dylan:Let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it. Let's try to get through a podcast. Come on, let's go, come on. This isn't funny for you, but it's fun for us Come on Cleetus, come on son.
Brad:So I felt like an empty.
Martin:We just have to see that people are disenchanted and nihilistic and depressed and anxious and aimless and perverse and vengeful and all of those things it's.
Brad:He's sad. He's sad about it.
Martin:Do you have any specific arch-type for this?
Brad:Yeah, can you go back to the Jesus archetype of a carpenter and when he was frustrated and what he did? Okay, so, martin, as a top level soccer player, did you ever?
Martin:Don't forget that category.
Brad:What do they call it in Ted Lasso? A case of the Yips. Yips, that's a golf term too.
Dylan:Yeah, you can't say it. You did not say the term yips, you just said it three times.
Brad:Yeah, I'm not near golf course. You literally live on a golf course. Jesus, okay, okay. Have you ever had a time where something that you were doing well suddenly didn't go well? Dating yeah, I'm talking soccer specific oh, okay, sorry. Dating too?
Martin:Yeah, definitely, because you're a soccer player, the In America and Europe it's a different story.
Dylan:Cool cloud tattoos on the arm and Range Rovers. Why don't you want to become a soccer player? I? Don't know, knees, elbows, those, yeah, which is naming joins now, the hair, yeah, the hair, yeah, the hair, yeah the hair Right.
Brad:So are you going to have to go back and maybe repeat some stretch goals in your lifetime? A fine tune if you will, absolutely Okay. Or a reinvention. And also remember that deliberate practice doesn't take away. So you're still going to like, if I'm in a soccer practice, right, and I'm still going to practice three times a week, but I'm going to deliberately practice 15 minutes a day on that static kick in the upper 90. Okay, okay, I'm still going through it's. It's not like I stop everything. It's not like this is everything else? Be damned, I'm not doing anything else. This is one specific type of my training, whatever that may be, and this is yeah, this is not just Sports related.
Martin:So what? What you might want to mention to the audience is, like, extrapolated, like that 1% improvement.
Brad:Yeah, you have a microphone you can extrapolate to the audience.
Martin:Okay, I'm just trying to Just Dylan.
Brad:Hot takes. Yes, thank you, I've got so, yes, that the incremental improvement over time. Are we through step one yet? Immediate and informative feedback what went well, what needs improvement, how do we make that happen? Also, this is great if you have a coach or a team or a mentor or Anybody that gives a shit about you, that can give me back feedback part.
Martin:I just did the feedback part. Like, as an individual, if you're trying to improve yourself by yourself, how do you receive that feedback? What is it that you need to do to Understand like, oh, this didn't go well. Are you recording yourself? Are you videoing?
Brad:yourself. You could do that also. It at some point self-awareness, self-awareness, but it goes to self-awareness, self-awareness but like she even talks about when she did her TED Talk, which is a lot of people that know of her know of her from a TED Talk. It's a little six minute are all TED Talks like six?
Martin:no.
Brad:They bury very so she did like a six or seven minute TED Talk on this right and so she goes.
Dylan:They gave her and we're doing and we're doing a podcast on her right now. Well, she didn't get at least 15 minutes. Her book must be bullshit, then I don't make the rules wish.
Martin:If I think she's on Ted versus like a Ted, okay, yes.
Brad:She's high-level. I'm gonna have to burn this episode onto a CD Floppy disks yes, I love it. I prefer hard disks.
Brad:Laser disks so she goes in and she does a preview talk to Ted. It's not Ted, it's the guy that runs Ted and another lady, ted, talk show. And all they gave her was Like the negative feedback about what sucked about her talk, because that's all the shit that she needed to improve upon Mm-hmm she. And she was more along the lines of like, oh, I thought I was gonna be praised and and that's not, that's not what she needed. She needed Okay, this is what's wrong, this is what's wrong, this what's wrong. Go back, look at it, see if you can correct that. And Then she did and she great, a great talk, mm-hmm. So.
Dylan:So great, they gave her six minutes.
Brad:I mean, or six minutes is all she needed. It's yeah, they vary.
Brad:Okay, yeah, so or the boys get at some point say I'm trying to write Anything. If I'm just a writer at some point, that's gonna have to go to somebody else. Yeah, I'm gonna need some feedback on it. I can think whatever I want to think about it. And we've talked about that this before where If you've been on a topic for a long time, or if you've been researching it or thinking about it, and then you write something about it makes total sense in your head and then somebody else reads it. I Don't know what the fuck you're talking about yeah, I get in trouble a lot with my life with that.
Dylan:So I do too so at some point now with your wife somebody.
Brad:So some things are gonna be immediate feedback, in the sense that if I kick a ball and I Hit it on the ground every single time, or I kick it, you know, left over the goal every single time, that's immediate feedback. Mm-hmm, like I know I'm doing something wrong, right, right. So now, okay, how did I? How did I kick that one? Okay, well, let's adjust this thing. So it's incremental adjustments until you hit what your goal is. And then it's about consistency. So, just like you, the guy banging his head against the wall, can he? I could go out there and do it and probably figure it out. It might take me a long time and my leg might get mm-hmm.
Brad:I can giant, and we'll get giant everybody knows I got time.
Dylan:This is a good spot to emphasize that you can do this on your own, but if you want some sort of expediency, seek others out, yeah because you learning to kick your upper right post or upper left post by yourself.
Dylan:Your form, honestly, might be shit and it's like it works here when I'm not playing in a real yes, soccer, football match, whatever we're gonna call it. I know we're gonna call it football because I approve of that, but that's that works for you, standing still and even if the ball is rolling with around you when there's nobody around me. But if I have to do this in a game, that form sucks and it's not gonna be. It's not gonna actually get the job done the way it needs to get done, whereas if you had Martin observing you, he'd be like I understand what you're trying to do. You're overcompensating, coming over the top of the ball because you're not getting in front of it enough, and that's how you send it there.
Dylan:But what you really need to be doing is you need to be low, you need to be shifting your weight back and then getting on and then getting over the ball, because that's gonna get the pop and the spin you need, because that's how you're gonna get it over the defenders. You know it's. It's having someone and if you, if you, obviously there are people that aren't gonna be able to have coaches in their life, and that's okay. But if you have the means, don't try to do it on your own. Search it out, and that's that's for every aspect of life, by the way. Well, and also, if you're, if you're, but not the snake oil salesman, if you're gonna be a top, level performer you need.
Brad:You're going to have to have that, you're gonna need it. I mean, unless you're just, I don't even know.
Dylan:I mean the world's best, world's best golfers. I keep going back to that because it's such a. It's just as much mental in a lot of sports but it if your mental game collapses, you can have the most physicality out of anyone and your game is just gonna collapse in general and and you have nobody else there to pick you up, it's just you in front of everybody else going oh I'm gone. If you have a bad moment on a team, you can kind of have others kind of hide you a little bit. You can kind of get yourself back in the game that way. But the best coaches in golf Aren't world-class golfers, they're just phenomenal coaches because they can see things well.
Brad:The best coaches and most things, or are not the best Of anything it's very rare that they are the best.
Martin:Yeah, they. I mean, I can only speak in terms of like the Premier League and and yeah, well, who's made?
Dylan:who's made a run at it? Like who's I'm trying to think of, like last generation, it's made around so the one that's is Neville.
Martin:No, no, it's a Savio Lanza who what about lampard? Didn't like a golf. He crashed and burned. That's what I thought, but Savio Lanza who coaches for Peps. Pep wasn't a great player, though.
Brad:No, but I mean yeah, because you're talking about like, if you're talking about like 12 world-class players and I just saw this the other day but people define world-classes otherwise, but are they gonna go on to be an amazing coach. No, they may go on coach if you're a world-class player.
Dylan:Let's be honest, you're probably a little selfish and you're probably not meant for that team aspect of coaching. Well, he really wants to do it? Oh, no, not that boxer. He's a broody little.
Martin:He's got. I mean I truthfully he knows he's got some a long road ahead of him. He might, but but also.
Brad:That's. That's two different skill sets.
Dylan:Yeah, absolutely. It's people managing. You know so, and this happens in business a lot, yeah, is You'll take the best salesman, right, you'll take the best engineer and you'll be like you're so good at your job. It's the same thing to teach. I'm going to promote you to be manager and you're like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. They're really good at their job for various reasons. And you know what? Maybe they will become a very good manager and a very good mentor. But we see it so many times where it's like, no, that they're not meant to be doing that. They're meant to be doing their job to the best of their abilities.
Brad:It's like a genius that you want to be a teacher Well, but there's also we can, we can?
Martin:we can a little bit on a tangent, but I do feel like it's this issue of putting people into boxes. Like you're great at this.
Dylan:Yeah, like so we're gonna move here.
Martin:So, but why can't there be an amalgamation of both? Like how do you create that new range?
Dylan:Both. I think the military's got to figure it out and I've kind of there's nothing wrong with the military, no, but I don't. Here we go.
Martin:Now I said it you.
Dylan:They have a non commissioned officer, a very high ranking non officer, on a, you know, special forces. They'll have a very high ranking non officer and that guy will get paired with the Commanding officer like an actual officer and the officer is there, from a structural standpoint going. These are the needs of the Navy or the army.
Dylan:This is what we're getting from the chain of command and they work with the.
Dylan:They work with the Non commissioned officer or the the highest ranking, you know non commissioned individual and they'll be like, hey, from a corporate, and you know, we'll treat the greater military as the corporate structure. This is what we're getting from the top of the food chain. And then they'll work with those guys and they'll be like, okay, yeah, but your men are gonna say this and these are gonna be their issues and this is what we run into when we've run ops like this before and they work together, I mean the. They'll say the best teams are ones that have an awesome NCO and an awesome officer that work together To be like, okay, we have a common ground here. And I think that's probably from a corporate level. It's okay, you have this, you're the manager of this division, but you have this awesome technical, so you know lead as well, they're gonna, they're gonna help run the engineers with you and obviously you have business goals you need to get. So it's it's putting people together sometimes to kind of co-lead.
Brad:That maybe that hybrid, but they also do probably a decent job of separating those people into Into the correct boxes to begin with yeah, and the boxes may be. Listen, you're really like that would be like me at work like I'm not management material right.
Dylan:So it's like you really take care of yourself. Thank you, Geez Brad.
Brad:Yeah, I'm learning. I love you, though, speak to the hand. So so there are. There are like the grunts that it's like Tell me what to do, I'm gonna go do it, I'm gonna kick doors, that's what I want to do, like this is my deal. And then you get into the upper special forces and they're like, hey, wait a second, let's think about. You know, is this really a good idea? Can can we go about this a different way? Can we problem solve this? Can we whatever? So those are, there's a lot of different boxes that that people can fit into, and so I think, through a military standpoint, they try to do that as well in terms of whatever. So All right.
Dylan:So that was the feedback talking about practice.
Brad:Thank you, thank you, ted. Repetition with reflection and refinement is the last one. So this is where the grit part really comes into, because You're gonna have to do something over and over again that you are not good at. That you were also trying to get better at to reach whatever your goals are, and and what? Just this? It's David, it's David, I know it. Fucking. Interrupt me one more time, I'll interrupt you.
Dylan:A long road ahead of us tonight, boys.
Brad:So it's repetition every time you do it. What did I do? I just saw a clip the other day as a dude that was like I don't know, it was 60s probably shooting baskets. He's at the free throw line and he's talking to a whole 100, 200 kids that are in the gymnasium and this guy's just feeding them basketballs and he's just fucking drilling them one.
Dylan:Right after the while he's talking to him he's like, if you want to become the Augustana basketball coach was like that the old I forget the old head coach, the men's, he, he did same thing like, but it was very much this every time you shoot the ball, what did you do?
Brad:Did you make it? Okay, how do I keep doing that so that I can repeat that motion whenever I want to on command Right. And so she talks about things being. What does she say? Something about hard things that you can't do consciously becoming easy things that you do unconsciously. That's the point of deliberate practice. So when stuff Curry steps back and hits a three like he's not thinking about it, he's thinking about it the whole time when he's practicing, but when he's in a game it's reactionary, it's just automatic and that comes from all that time.
Brad:Okay, no, I pushed that one a little too hard, so you just learn over and over and over again, and that's what that repetition is. So can you, can you withstand the boredom of shooting 5,000, three pointers, and can you also focus on those 5,000 to refine your movement to get it to where it needs to be? That's a big part of grit.
Dylan:Absolutely Something that triggered the memory for me. I forget which golf coach but they talk about. When you make a great shot, you're excited and you're like, awesome made a great shot. And at the end of the day, we all know we probably learn more from failure than we do success. And he goes. But what do you do when you make? What do you? What do?
Martin:you know you're going to disagree. That's like to hope so.
Dylan:It depends on the person depends on the person, but when you make a bad shot in golf, your immediate reaction for the vast majority golfers is you immediately get mad, you get upset and you're not focusing on what you just did. You're focusing on the bad outcome which is I can't believe. I just put my ball on the left side.
Dylan:Yeah, that, and like you fucking instead of, instead of just taking a step back and saying why did that happen? Did I rush my shot? Did I, did I did I feel? Was I not ready when I took my backswing? It's, it's and it's not over, analyzing while you're playing the game, but it's taking notes and understand. Okay, why did I do that? What do I think led to that? And then not making broad, sweeping changes, but taking note so that you can you can identify those factors.
Martin:Yeah, like you, the nail in the head there, because that's like you have to be able to balance out analysis, paralysis, because you can over analyze the situation which I, as golf before?
Brad:yeah, and that's this whole fucking episode right, it's you're.
Martin:So you just like, uh, and you still do a. Do we have a button for that? We will after this.
Brad:I'm sad.
Martin:Or how do you, you know, continue, persevere and reflect on like okay, this is what we're around the step? The is the grit part.
Brad:That's the grit part.
Dylan:Hey, you're gonna get and that is, and it is, the grit part.
Brad:It's because you're gonna get into that uncomfortable headspace of like. I don't want to fucking think about this anymore.
Dylan:I'll be. I'll be guilty when I'm playing really good golf and if all of a sudden I have a bad hole, it's hard for me to forget it, as much as I want to be like, that's behind you, whatever, and you'll stew and ruminate on it and it's. It's the grit of saying it doesn't matter, I've got 50, 60, 70, 100 more golf games ahead of me. You just took a, you just got a lesson, and be happy for that lesson and let's move on and keep playing. And the next time around, understand that when you get in a really good headspace, you get a little lack of days of cool, you get a little lazy. You know, if you get four good holes in a row, you get a little lazy. So the next time you get four good holes in a row, don't just kind of just be like, oh, I've got this. Really keep your game focused.
Brad:There is an also there's an extension of that that they talk about, and I think Erickson and Chickset me hi, come from different flow yeah, from the flow state, and so the enormous amount of deliberate practice is more likely to lend you into a flow state, because now you have overdone these things to the point where they do literally become unconscious, and when you talk about anybody that's in a flow state, doing music or sports or writing or that's any kind of work vintage Tiger.
Dylan:Woods yeah the moment that guy got a lead. There was a couple factors and he knew those factors. One factor was the Tiger effect. He knew if he had a lead everyone will women was getting out.
Dylan:He knew the whole field was going to be chasing him and he knew the whole field was going to be overcompensating every shot because they knew if they fucked up they weren't going to get Tiger. And Tiger never makes a mistake, it's Iceman and Top Gun. Yeah, tiger never makes a mistake. So if I make a mistake, yeah, yeah, you got to do the teet drop. That was really good actually. Oh, but then Tiger also, that happened enough, where he and he, in his own words, beat balls on the range long enough.
Dylan:Yeah, that he knew. Yeah, they're going to self destruct and I'm just going to go play my game and I can go after it, but I I have full confidence in where I'm at, because I've hit enough balls to know that. I know it's going to, it's going to go this way, but that's that. That's that.
Brad:Tom Daly story or the John Daly story Sorry, the John Daly story where they played around and it was like a Friday or Saturday, and he's in the clubhouse and they're drinking and other guys are drinking you know that whole deal and Tiger walks by and he's like, hey, tiger, come over here and have a drink with us. And he's like, nah, I'm going to go, I'm going to go hit some balls. And so you know, an hour and a half later Tiger walks back through the clubhouse again he's like, hey, come over here and have a drink with us. And Tiger's like, nah, I'm going to go work out. So he goes and works out.
Brad:And then he's coming back through and he's like now we're like two bottles of crown in you know, and, and he's like Tiger comes back through and so what the fuck are you guys doing in here? It's like we got to play again tomorrow. And he's like, yeah, come have a drink with us. You know, and, and John.
Dylan:Peterson's all for now. John Daly goes.
Brad:Yeah, he might be. He goes and I only remember that time because I went out the next day and I beat him. But he goes 99 times out of 100. He wipes the floor with me because he's just so into it. He's just he's hit so many balls Like everything is just golf digested.
Dylan:Yeah Took a picture of his hands, the other day and he's had a close or a hooked grip. Which is you put your? You put your weak hand, index finger, on top of your strong hand, pinky, and they're permanently disformed. They have bends in them from him holding them together on top of a golf club for so many.
Brad:But in terms of stretch goals, like do you think he just goes? You think he just goes a driving range and like hits a driver? No, it's like, no, he you watch, you watch those guys and you're like you're bought your two feet behind a tree. Like how the fuck are you going to? It's like, oh yeah, well, I've practiced a shot a bunch.
Dylan:Talk about stretch goals, the guy already arguably the best golfer ever. You know there will always be a debate between him and Jack and at the end of the day Jack will get the most majors. It's.
Brad:Jack.
Dylan:Nicholas Jack has more majors than Tiger. Tiger has the most PJ tour which is tight. And I that actually that's very common by the way. Yeah the bear. But you guy gets in a car crash, almost loses his leg. The surgeon's exact quote is the only reason this guy still has his leg is because his Tiger Woods.
Dylan:Oh, if it was anyone other than Tiger Woods, we would have amputated. And the surgery team was literally like we're not going to cut Tiger, we're not going to be the team that cuts Tiger Woods's leg off, and now his, his stretch goals. I'm going to go play competitive golf again, and he's still keeping up.
Brad:But what if they did amputate it and then he was like the best amputee golf forever and they took that away from him?
Dylan:Is there a division for that?
Martin:That actually might solve. I mean, yeah, he had ACL surgery, so that, oh, I thought you were going to say it like Mike playing fielders.
Brad:Yeah, when's?
Dylan:it When's it us open with a torn ACL? That was when he told Stevie to fuck off. That's a great story, His caddy. Let's not tell us. You know. Okay, never mind.
Brad:Was this caddy check?
Dylan:No play, hit the button.
Martin:I'm feeling it right now.
Dylan:That was feedback to his caddy. Yeah, fuck you, stevie.
Brad:All of that. All of that was knowing the basic science.
Dylan:That was basic science it wasn't.
Brad:It was a whole bunch of shit that you guys started talking about.
Dylan:It's good though it's good, it's really not. But whatever, it's fine.
Brad:Second tip Key points, second tip. So she's got three tips. Second tip is to make deliberate practice a habit. How do you do that? Okay, martin, how do you do? That you tell Brad to get up at 530 in the morning and we're going to go fucking work out. And then sometimes he says no, and then, but most of the time he wakes up and doesn't want to work out and goes anyways.
Martin:Well, you know why you don't want to go because you know, because it's 530 in the morning. No, it's not even that. It's because the fact that I'm fucking driving to your house to pick your ass up. You're like, oh, the ride's coming, I better fucking get in the car.
Dylan:Responsibility is a bitch yeah it sucks, doesn't it Brad?
Brad:So deliberate practice is because it is tiring and intentionally hard it's. It's something that you don't necessarily want to do.
Dylan:I would argue that it's not that hard for you because you have other people looking out for you. It's hard for him to get up and get in the car. It's not hard for you.
Brad:It's not hard for him. He's a fucking psycho.
Dylan:Well, it's great. It's what great's called. I don't think so.
Brad:I don't think so. I don't think that word ever appears in this book. Okay, what psycho? Yeah, I don't think so.
Martin:Maybe once I mean no, she said mob bosses, ted Bundy and yeah, I mean, but Ted Bundy was driving in a beetle tan beetle.
Brad:Yeah, but grit is doing something that, like you, don't necessarily love doing over and over again, and I'm pretty sure that he did like it.
Dylan:Kemper talk about that though Like he didn't like it afterwards, and then all of a sudden like flip back to him enjoying it and then he that's when he'd go kill again, are you?
Brad:trying to make him a reasonable person.
Dylan:No, I'm not.
Brad:Okay, I don't know. So so set up, set up a timeframe, a location, have somebody that's going to you know, call you bad names If you don't do what you're supposed to be doing. The damn car, brad, yeah, whatever, whatever it takes. So, because it's hard set up things that make it easier right, and everybody the greats do this and she talks about like the greats are also realistic.
Brad:But they're. But they're also not specific in what they do. It's not like you have to get up at four o'clock and you have to do this, but they do have set routines. They've set routines, yes.
Martin:But, the greats at executing this procedure. They might not be great people, though.
Brad:No, no, no, no. I mean the greats of all time Again, whatever you're talking, about.
Martin:Sure.
Dylan:We're not saying they might be so focused on one goal that that makes them a shitty human being. He's saying they're not great necessarily great like personalities.
Brad:Oh, what you wanna talk shit about Michael Jordan? Go for it. No, lay it out. No, what do you got? What's the?
Martin:second part.
Dylan:People have distractions in their lives, yeah, so you need to be realistic about it, though, and deliberate practice doesn't mean I'm going to go from doing absolutely nothing in my life to having a full seven day regimented routine. It's understanding that.
Dylan:I have no work, I have this, I have that, I have kids. But then saying, you know, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, between there's a pattern between these hours that I don't really have a lot most weeks and you go okay, those are my no go days, those are days that I will not sacrifice those two time slots for this goal I'm achieving.
Dylan:It's not saying, oh, I'm committing to seven days a week for this and this and this, and this is gonna be my grit session, because what that does is you're going to have something that's more important than that come up and that's your easy out, and then, the moment you give yourself an easy out, the grit's gone. And so grit is you're not giving yourself excuses. You know these time slots are available and there's no excuse for you not to hit those.
Brad:But this is also you're not gonna, you don't want to overextend yourself, because we've already talked about the timeframe of deliberate practice, so you can't be like that's one mode.
Dylan:That's one mode.
Brad:I'm gonna do it for five hours.
Dylan:No, you're not, you're not gonna do it for five hours. That's one modal, though. Yeah, or modality, I should say. So, like in golf you could go putt for an hour. You could go hit balls on the driving range for an hour. You could go chip for an hour. Those are different modalities. Soccer you could do strategy for an hour. You could do defense for an hour. You could do long kicks for an hour. I mean there's different modalities there.
Brad:No, there is, and oftentimes they will do that. They will probably work on a professional, or you can even look at it as a writer.
Martin:They may have. They have a man that works with wood, different oh let's just talk about no.
Brad:Okay, Can we get to the third tip?
Dylan:No, we're not done yet. We're not done with modalities. Here we are.
Brad:We're not done with wood. I didn't even write modalities on it. You made that up. Okay, crossfit.
Dylan:Wow, say it, it's not from CrossFit. What's?
Brad:the tagline so easy, Chuck E Cheese can do it.
Dylan:No, that's not it.
Martin:Bummer.
Brad:I don't know that one. I don't think that's a real tagline. It is not. It is to change the way you experience deliberate practice. So this is where, maybe, thinking about it as I don't know, the back of a T-shirt you know, oh, I know Finance Bros Think about it like a finance bro. Okay, okay. So I'm gonna do shit so hard that other people aren't even gonna think about doing it.
Dylan:Like that? Didn't Alex Ramose say that? Who's that? What? I'm just teasing. God, I hate you.
Brad:So this comes from a swimming coach, Terry Laughlin.
Brad:While deliberate practice is hard, it can also feel wonderful, but you need to change the way you think about it. If you try, you can learn to embrace challenge rather than fear it. You can do all the things you're supposed to do during deliberate practice a clear goal, feedback, all of it and still feel great while you're doing it. It's all about, in the moment, self-awareness without judgment. It's about relieving yourself of the judgment that gets in the way of enjoying the challenge. So, knowing that it's a challenge and that you are most likely initially gonna start be failing at it, but aware that this is part of the process that you're working towards and the overcoming challenges feels good. And she talks about this in terms of like babies and toddlers, so like everything is a fucking challenge to them. You know they don't complain about it.
Brad:They don't know any better, but not only do they not know any better, but they are encouraged to overcome those things. Oh, yeah, good job. Yeah, first step, let's go.
Martin:And then all they don't know, they just know to oh like, oh, I think I can stand up, oh, no, I'm standing up and oh, I am, but also there's a reaction to it.
Brad:So if a baby's trying to stand up and it falls on its ass and the parents are, like, I was gonna say Fucking idiot.
Martin:You can fucking stand up, even you stupid babies. You can say Tarzan.
Dylan:What about Tarzan?
Brad:What about Tarzan?
Martin:What about Mowgli?
Dylan:What about Mowgli? They didn't have anybody else.
Martin:Tarzan's mom was a gorilla.
Dylan:And then Mowgli had a bear.
Brad:Are we even talking about real life? It could be possible. Oh, it's possible. It's possible that a guy is raised by animals and talks perfect English. Georgia the Jungle Hit the blue button. Georgia, the Jungle, hit the blue button. I know it's the blue button. Could be the red button. Nope, yellow.
Martin:I'm sad. Orange, green, blue no, I said blue already purple.
Dylan:I can't believe I can edit this one.
Brad:I had high hopes for all of this.
Dylan:This is good. It's good, it's fun. It's not good.
Brad:Simidana, just tell me what I'm doing wrong, okay now it's a purple button.
Martin:Oh, what is your scratch goal?
Brad:To do this all by myself.
Martin:Oh.
Dylan:Go for it.
Martin:I'll give you the equipment. I don't even care, even the sambo.
Dylan:You can have the sambo oh.
Brad:Where's the button? Not blue anymore, because I changed the blue button.
Dylan:Getting back to this, it's all about the, it's all about, in the moment, self. I think self-awareness is the biggest thing here. I keep I go back to this Because people that aren't self-aware aren't going to grow, because they can't take the feedback, whether it's good or negative. Cause, if it's if you, if you what?
Brad:deliberate practice? No, not only that, a lot of people aren't doing this, because she's guessing that most people are not doing any sort of deliberate practice in their life?
Martin:Well, but Is that out of zero? Is that out of fear?
Dylan:Is that out of or is that?
Martin:out of it's probably a bunch of things, but it goes back to when I, when I was on a different episode the fact that we have a tough time doing self-reflection. We have an extremely hard time doing self-reflection, and this is what it's about.
Brad:Unless you don't.
Martin:Unless you don't unless you know how to and then you have crippling depression and anxiety.
Dylan:It's great. Well, or else We'll just stick around for next episode.
Brad:I'm sad to see that people are so sad.
Dylan:I see that everybody's just-.
Martin:Where am I today? Sorry.
Dylan:Not trying to kill it, it's self-reflection's hard.
Martin:I'm talking about practice. It's tough, self-reflection is tough, because it's like where do you go from here? And you're still trying to push yourself to improve right, to continue to do Kaizen.
Dylan:There's a dichotomy, because our culture emphasizes competition and so it's easy to people are almost have to sell themselves in this world. Social media really puts that.
Brad:I'm an influencer?
Dylan:I'm doing this, I have to. Are you going to your job and you have to sell it? You're trying to sell your value or whatever it is, but I have some prime examples of individuals that were phenomenal athletes.
Brad:You keep pointing to me.
Dylan:No but you know that because you were there across of it.
Brad:You used to.
Dylan:They were phenomenal athletes and they just didn't have very good technique. But their athleticism allowed them to outwork that shitty technique, but that was never going to allow them to get to the next level.
Dylan:So they needed to take an ego check that's an average and reduce and go slower with the right technique so they could become faster in the end game. And that's what people don't do in this world, for any modality. I'm going to use it again just to piss you off or sector of their lives, which is. I already know how to do this.
Dylan:I want to do what I'm already at this level and it's like take five steps back and I know this is really hard for you. It's going to be slower than you've ever done it before and it's going to seem like a burden. But once you get those basics done again, or relearned, and you've improved, it's going to get exponentially better. And that's the hardest part right now for a company that I'm working for is we're doing the small to medium size transition, which my argument is that's the hardest transition a company will make. Medium to large isn't that difficult. It just is a bigger cash injection. Small to medium is all hands on deck. To now, we have formal processes. This is your lane. This is your lane but at the same time, we can't become so process centric that we forget about the customer. So there's a balance that you have to learn, which is your pendulum swings so vast and hard, so quickly, but it is. We have to unlearn some things, to relearn some things, to be able to go farther. And why is your brain hurting, brad?
Brad:I think you just gave a real life example of a finance bro. Good Proud of you. Or they said it's easier to make a billion dollars than it is to make a million dollars, and now you're going to agree with them. How did I agree with them?
Dylan:Structurally I agree with them. Structurally it's easier to go from a medium company to a large company, that is, from a small to medium.
Brad:Okay, well, now you're a finance bro. Oh my God.
Dylan:This is why you're a one man shop. You're going to be included on that episode.
Brad:Good, can't wait. So talk about practice, man.
Martin:I'm really sad.
Brad:Hit the practice button. Hot takes, no, no more. Okay, no more, hot takes. Hit the practice button. We talking about practice. You understand me. Practice, that's right, ted. Practice, it's where you control what happens. Do more deliberate practice.
Dylan:Do you have any other advice other than just go do things? Do you have any?
Brad:how to easy. I don't know what did we just do for an?
Martin:hour. Yeah, we covered a lot of great content. It's we did, we did.
Dylan:You guys will call this terribly ADHD. You hate it.
Brad:No, it's good. No, it's not. You know what? Don't do anything. Be a piece of shit. I don't care.
Dylan:You can tell we're brad Brett Hedlifrey. This whole thing is stupid Deliberate practice. It starts with understanding your weaknesses, seeking out your weaknesses, understanding that that's not a negative thing, and then attack them. It's that simple. Why didn't?
Martin:I say that I don't know, but also, at the same time, develop an open mindset to attack them.
Dylan:She had to write 300 pages on that.
Martin:Yeah.
Dylan:I know Six minutes at TED Talk. That's what you get. Thanks, guys.
Martin:You're still here. It's over, go home.
Brad:Go.