Embark on a philosophical adventure with us and our special guest Annie, as we peel back the layers of the Ship of Theseus puzzle. It's not just an ancient paradox; it's a lively debate about the very core of identity that still captures the imagination today. Throughout our episode, we trace the lines between the tangible and intangible, contemplating whether we, like the storied ship, remain 'us' amidst the ebb and flow of change. We're not just talking planks and nails here—this is about the essence of being, from the cars we drive to the art that moves us.
As we traverse the landscapes of self and society, we ponder the metamorphosis of identity through the lens of both philosophy and the everyday. How do the parts of our lives—our experiences, memories, and relationships—shape the whole of who we are? The discussion takes a turn through the practical implications of our musings, examining how personal transformation clashes with societal measures of responsibility, from parole boards to brain transplants. We tease apart notions of the self with nods to pop culture favorites like "Primal Fear" and "Black Mirror," proving that this ancient conundrum is as relevant as ever in the modern world.
Closing our episode, we reflect on the fleeting nature of our personas, drawing from the world of celebrity and our personal narratives. Does a name change signify a shift in identity, or is it mere semantics? What is the value of the moments we've lived if our future selves are strangers to them? Join us as we ponder these questions, leaving you with a deeper curiosity about the memories you cherish, the legacy you'll leave, and the enigmatic nature of the 'you' that's listening right now.
Embark on a philosophical adventure with us and our special guest Annie, as we peel back the layers of the Ship of Theseus puzzle. It's not just an ancient paradox; it's a lively debate about the very core of identity that still captures the imagination today. Throughout our episode, we trace the lines between the tangible and intangible, contemplating whether we, like the storied ship, remain 'us' amidst the ebb and flow of change. We're not just talking planks and nails here—this is about the essence of being, from the cars we drive to the art that moves us.
As we traverse the landscapes of self and society, we ponder the metamorphosis of identity through the lens of both philosophy and the everyday. How do the parts of our lives—our experiences, memories, and relationships—shape the whole of who we are? The discussion takes a turn through the practical implications of our musings, examining how personal transformation clashes with societal measures of responsibility, from parole boards to brain transplants. We tease apart notions of the self with nods to pop culture favorites like "Primal Fear" and "Black Mirror," proving that this ancient conundrum is as relevant as ever in the modern world.
Closing our episode, we reflect on the fleeting nature of our personas, drawing from the world of celebrity and our personal narratives. Does a name change signify a shift in identity, or is it mere semantics? What is the value of the moments we've lived if our future selves are strangers to them? Join us as we ponder these questions, leaving you with a deeper curiosity about the memories you cherish, the legacy you'll leave, and the enigmatic nature of the 'you' that's listening right now.
This is the Terribly Unoblivious Podcast.
Brad:Yep, I said it before and I'll say it again Life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it. I don't feel like you're here right now.
Dylan:I'm physically here. Mentally, I'm trying to get in the game. Why did you think? I just took that deep breath. Obviously, our listeners who are going to listen to this probably won't know that we didn't post this yesterday, because yesterday was yesterday and today is today, which means we can't post in the past. No, we didn't have a Friday episode either. It's pretty disappointing break. Yeah, I don't really fall in. Oh, we do have a guest today spring break spring annie next week.
Dylan:I'm on spring break too, so don't expect much from here on out I think the listeners should know that we just have kind of given up and we're calling it quits. Yeah, wow, that was a. Was that an angry yeah?
Brad:Was that a happy Annie? You never want to see me again, or no, don't jump off the roof. I can't tell. I don't know either with her man. I haven't been around her enough to know what her cries mean. So are you here?
Dylan:I'm getting into it.
Brad:I see dylan here, I'm getting better because your physical body is here. Does that mean you're here?
Dylan:um, I'm self actualizing and three of my other bodies right now to make sure that I'm doing three times the work as every other finance, bro you got three other bodies.
Brad:I got three other bodies. Which one is the real, dylan. This is a really good intro to this topic.
Dylan:It's really good the one making the most money, the one being the most productive that's the most dylan.
Brad:Yeah, no, not the most dylan, it's the real. What's which one is the real?
Dylan:dylan, the one that works 24 hours a day.
Brad:Okay. Well, we're going to get into a scenario here where that's plausible in a sci-fi sort of way. So today we're going to do a little bit of a logic thought puzzle. Okay, there are how I sent you this a while ago. I think Shannon bought me this book. A long thought puzzle. Okay, there are how I sent you this while ago. I don't know. I think Shana bought me this book a long time ago.
Dylan:50 philosophy ideas you really need to know. I think that's fun. I think this is fun by Ben Dupree. So just thought process here is well yeah if he has a little accent on the E, then I think you have to, then I think you have to, I think you have to raise the voice at the end so he, he breaks the book down into different parts, so different types of philosophies or something like that.
Brad:But they're all just little like four page blips on different topics and ideas and things like that and, uh, some of them run together. As I'm starting to go through the one we're going to cover today, I started thinking about like 12 different things and a bunch of them are in this book also.
Dylan:You're like no yeah, stay focused, it's just this one sensory overload but it's.
Brad:It's very easy to slip into the deep, dark philosophy hole. But there I was, just in a firewall hole. Yeah, that sounds hot.
Dylan:We currently don't have internet, get it. It's a firewall joke, hot takes. But today is not a hot takes episode, or is it? I guess it's the way we raise and lower our voices.
Brad:Alright, so this is from the book 50 Philosophy Ideas. You Need to philosophy ideas, you need to know, okay, really, need to know Really.
Dylan:Maybe, maybe buy the book from Amazon link in the bio.
Brad:Yeah, or, and then just follow it along.
Dylan:You could, we don't, we don't make any affiliate money. If they buy it from their bookstore, you. But if they click the link and buy it, we make like five cents yeah, but no, we don't like, I don't like that.
Brad:You gotta go support your local bookstores, not bam okay, or or maybe okay. Maybe that's the only one you got yeah, I don't know that's kind of a throwback, though, to amazon amazon buying books yeah, well, it's the original use of amazon, I know.
Dylan:And then they uh, they partnered with borders for a while, which is now um bam, bought the subset of locations that were the most profitable. I feel like this is better. Yeah, they um nerdier. They tried to grow aggressively and they made some missteps along the way orders did, yeah they, they really leveraged themselves out and they didn't you know what it was? What french berets did they wear french? There's too many french berets there like madeline, style.
Brad:Yeah, oh okay lattes, berets, anything that ends in ets, but sounds like a.
Dylan:Oh yeah, I know what you're saying, okay, okay all right.
Brad:So today is the ship of theseus never heard of it.
Dylan:Is it like when you pull the plug and the ship goes down? What's that called? I?
Brad:don't know, that's not the ship of theseus. All right, so my some of you for how?
Dylan:how broad's the beam like? Give me some dimensions. She she a ton.
Brad:She she an ocean ton oh, but this is greek ship ology, so okay, however big that has to be to carry so we're not talking.
Dylan:Remember, did you see the? Uh? We're not talking like um what was the brad pitt greek? We're not talking the uh movie red sea, um fiasco right now no, this is not right now. Oh okay, no, no this is all wood, all right. I was wondering if pirates were going to be involved uh, no pirates either.
Brad:No, I don't think it was a thing. Okay, I'm bored, okay, so the ship of theseus? All right, right. From Greek mythology, theseus was a mythical king and founder of the city of Athens. Somehow he traveled to, was it the country or island of Crete, you know? Back in the good old days.
Dylan:Oh yeah, that's where concrete was invented, shut up, okay, was it?
Brad:No, god damn it Got me. Concrete was invented, and he Shut up Okay, was it? No, god damn it Got me Concrete. He slayed a minotaur. Know what a minotaur is?
Dylan:No, cyclops, not Cyclops. No, what A minotaur is the horned beast? Was it the horse? The horned beast Is it? I don't know. The Horned Beast Is it? I don't know.
Brad:I thought it was a bull. No, yeah, no, maybe it looks like a bull. Okay, corbin was just watching something about man of Tars the other day.
Dylan:Is he watching Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief, Like that whole series? Oh no.
Brad:It was a cartoon, something at the end of the world. It's the head of a bull and the tail.
Dylan:Okay, at the end of the world, it's the head of a bull in the tail, okay, the tail of. Wait, the head and the tail of a bull in the body of a man. Oh, a big man or a little. Oh, he was in the labyrinth, that's, minotaurs were in the labyrinth. Yes and uh, delius and his son, icarus. Icarus flew too close to the sun?
Brad:he sure did. He got a little sunburned, yeah. So, uh, mythical King he goes to create. Apparently the Minotaur had uh captured a bunch of kids.
Dylan:No, yeah, he was a he was into slave trading or something. I think he reincarnated into the creepy guy and uh, cheat, cheat, bang bang.
Brad:Didn't see that movie.
Dylan:Oh movie. Oh okay, put on the list it's. I add it. This is such a weird. We're analog right now because I don't have a laptop in front, which actually probably makes me more engaged.
Brad:It it does. Okay, I like this.
Dylan:Okay, so he goes, slays the minotaur if any of these guys children if any of you guys are looking to become a sound engineer, let us know. We know we need a lookup guy and a sound engineer, so continue.
Brad:Thank you, so he frees these children and they escape onto a ship heading to Delos. So, he slays the minotaur, saves all these kids. Everybody's super happy about it, yay. And somebody says, but did you die? And he's like no, of course I didn't die, I'm the best, but did you die? Yeah, he's a king and the people are so enamored by his performance.
Dylan:Okay.
Brad:That they decide to commemorate his good deed. So they take the ship each year on a pilgrimage to Delos to honor Apollo. I don't know why they're honoring Apollo, but he's a god, I don't know. Sun god had something to do with Athens, yeah. So the question eventually becomes because they take this pilgrimage every year and because the ship is in use for every year and this commemoration lasts for hundreds of years, philosophers eventually start asking this question, which is after several hundred years of maintenance, if all of the original pieces of the wooden ship had been replaced, is it still the ship of Theseus? So you have an original ship and through years and years of use, the wood rots and each year, maybe, you replace one or two planks and at the end of several hundred years you have the same ship. Okay, all new boards, okay. So say, there's a thousand planks on that ship, yeah, and you replace two in 500 years you get a whole new ship. Okay. So is it still the same ship? This is the puzzle. Okay, any early comments?
Dylan:There's some. Buddhist uh, there's some uh, buddhist, um, there's some buddhist, uh crossover here. There's some, some things there like I'm just pulling from a deep well memory right now, but I read a couple buddhism, buddhist books when I was younger and they, they, they use the analogy of if you, if you replaced every part of the car, you know, if you're doing a car restoration by the end, is it still the same?
Brad:and I would have to, I would have to research further, but I know there's some yeah, there's lots of variations. There's variations of this. They actually the story he starts out with is a car story here, a new carburetor yeah, you, yeah, you start replacing all new heads, new gaskets, right is it.
Brad:Is it the car? Is it still the same car? Okay, well, maybe, yeah, maybe not. But uh, almost 2 000 years later, a uh another philosopher, thomas hobbes, kind of resurrects the story, and there's all kinds of iterations of the story. There's one involves, like a grandpa's axe, you know, so years of use, and suddenly you replace the handle and then you replace the head, and is it the same axe? And blah, blah, blah. That's a little bit less involved because there's only basically two parts to it A little bit of metal, a little bit of metal a little bit of wood yes, so there's some other uh topics including uh.
Brad:I think there's a chapter or two after this where it's it's. It's talking about what what number of grains of sand compile a heap of sand? Is it a hundred thousand? And if it's not a hundred thousand, is it 99, the minimum?
Dylan:thousand is whatever. So it becomes very subjective yeah, so at some point there's an easy metric there.
Brad:Some people might say well, eventually, if you replace too many boards, then it's not going to be the ship anymore. You're like okay, but what point is it? 500 or the 600 planks out of a thousand to the 800. I don't know. So Thomas Hobbes adds a a new element to this. Okay, so as the ship rots, you're replacing the boards. Right, piece of cake. That's the thought experiment now do you want to unmute yourself or not? You just want to do it that way.
Dylan:Oh, was I muted yeah, something, I'm sorry, I like that okay, that's better.
Brad:So now I can still hear myself. That was the problem. As they replace the boards, somebody, some little, some little stinker, is keeping the old, rotten boards and eventually he's got all the original boards of the ship, okay, and he puts all those boards back together in the original shape of the ship. So now you have the original ship that has been replaced with all new boards and you also have all of the old boards that have been built back into another ship. So which one is the ship of Theseus?
Dylan:The one where the collector will pay the most amount of money for Ooh.
Brad:Okay, so your identity is all monetary based.
Dylan:I think free market normally decides these things for us, okay.
Brad:So um, what I did not anticipate was econ coming into this.
Dylan:I so there's this awesome documentary on.
Dylan:Netflix? I don't. It's not a netflix specific one, I think it's just something they hope they host goodwill hunting. Uh, I, I don't have that one up right. Do you know how easy this is for me? That's my favorite documentary. Yeah, it's one of my favorites too. No, um, it was the one of the greatest art forgery schemes ever. Oh, yeah, you talked about this one time and to the point.
Dylan:There's this guy that was fooling everyone I mean the quote unquote, foremost experts and it wasn't until for a given style, for a given artist. This guy had a wide range. He could do Pollock, he could do um, or he did three. Really, really well, pollock's the one that just jumps to mind the fastest. I think he had Picasso's in there because he had a. There was a story he did, story he did. He did late 1800s. The early to early 1950s was kind of his artist um profile. And the reason he did it is his fence was this woman who said she had a very wealthy family. That was, I don't remember there was some nazi influence or not. Maybe they. They left germany to go to argentina and they had this crazy what's in argentina?
Dylan:they had this crazy art collection and then they you know now through the years, so she had this whole backstory that was like very like why.
Dylan:And the reason was we've never seen these works before. They were all originals, but they passed the sniff test okay, all the way to the point of it was only until there was some crazy experimental science, kind of cracking the code on these things. Um, but one of the lawyers at the end, who rep I don't remember which side he represented, but he had a piece of art from the forgery hanging in his office and he just goes. What is art? Is it actually art or is it somebody's hand touched it? He goes because, according to everyone, this painting seven years ago was worth 15 million dollars. And he goes, and by all accounts, because that person didn't touch it, even though it looks, smells, seems the same as every other one he's ever done. It's worth like seven dollars now and it hangs in my hangs in my um office.
Dylan:Yes, so the free market kind of decides those things. I I think which is there's a, there's myriad or there's there's. There's a lot of different ways to go about that, but then it's what the masses will identify as value and then pay for.
Brad:But also there is a sense of the original, the original. But because he because he recreated something that somebody else created.
Dylan:So if some sneaky guy is stealing all the OG boards, yes, and he builds it all again, yeah, okay, that's probably the one that makes it. I don't know, I mean because we're going to get into it. Okay, let's get into it.
Brad:So with the introduction of the new ship, which is out of all the old parts, now we get into these two principles. Okay, so, gradual replacement principle so this is what we started off with is composed of so many parts and a single part of that object is replaced, producing object y. Then objects x and y are the same object. So if we're taking two planks out of the ship and putting two new planks in, we're not renaming the ship. Okay, guys, we? I just listen, I know I filled this not in on this table right here this is's Fred 2.
Brad:This is a new table.
Dylan:It's Fred 2. Now I made a new table. It's not Fred 1 anymore, it's Fred 2. What's Fred 2?
Brad:I don't know what's Fred 1?.
Dylan:Fred died, so we can't talk about Fred George still living, though.
Brad:What.
Dylan:Weasley twins, harry Potter In real life? No, in the books.
Brad:Oh, they died one of them really yeah it's been a while battle of hogwarts man yeah, there are some casualties. So that's gradual replacement principle. Now there's also the same parts principle. So if object x and object y share all and only the same exact parts, arranged in exactly the same way, then objects x and y are the same object. So the ship when it first started out as all of the original parts and then, a thousand years later, all of the original parts. Right, yeah, those two are the same thing, are?
Brad:they really I don't know. That's it's possible Is. Is that more the same ship than than the old one?
Dylan:Uh, depends on the, uh, the wood, it does the density Did they? Did they get old? They get old trees. Or did they get new trees with the, with the shitty life rings on them?
Brad:oh, they're so shitty life rings, guys I don't even want to talk about wood I can't do it.
Dylan:Oh my grandpa, my grandpa, just go down the rabbit hole. Do you ever demo an old house? And you just look at the two by fours and you just see yeah, you know how people go into houses and steal copper.
Brad:Yeah, yeah, I steal all the old two by fours.
Dylan:Yeah, yeah, I steal all the old 2x4s. You're not using this load-bearing wall. You don't need this.
Brad:This house is demoed. There's no studs here, though.
Dylan:What happened? The stud thief came again in the night Ripped them all out. It's just a little sag, that's all it is Left, all this copper, though Just a little sag.
Brad:You'll never even know. Okay, so this leads us to this other idea of logic. So it's transitivity, transitivity, transitivity.
Dylan:Transitivity.
Brad:Yes, is that the?
Dylan:transitive property in math.
Brad:I think that's exactly what it is.
Dylan:So A equals B, B equals C, A equals C.
Brad:Okay, right, yeah, so A is exactly the same as B and B is exactly the same as C.
Dylan:Unless it's I.
Brad:Therefore A equals C. I can't do I right now. I know we're just fucking with you. Okay, we're going to get there someday.
Dylan:Continue. We're not doing I. A will never equal I. It's okay.
Brad:No, because it's imaginary, right? Okay, so let's go back to the ship. The original ship is A, got it All the new parts, that's ship B, and the reconstructed ship out of the old parts that we kept is C Right, Got it so.
Dylan:Wait a minute, do it again, do it again.
Brad:The very original ship is A.
Dylan:Okay, og ship.
Brad:A yes, okay, the ship that now has all the new parts, all new parts. B Okay, and then the reconstructed ship out of the old parts. Reconstruction is?
Dylan:c? Are we talking about nails, glue, all of it to be identical okay like, but are you? You're getting into the minutiae. Are you recycling the nails from a to make b? Are you recycling nails from a to make c? Do?
Brad:you think they did glue I?
Dylan:think they used glue. Little honey, little wheat Go a long way Glue. When did glue get invented? Egyptian times, was it? It's BC.
Brad:I saw a meme the other day that said can you imagine the guy that invented glue? And it's two guys at a bar and the guy's like you know I bet if we melt horses down it'd get really sticky and we could stick stuff together with it and his friend goes is everything okay at home? It's kind of crazy.
Dylan:Wait a minute. Elmer's is a cow. Is it a cow? What's the logo of Elmer's? I was going to be really upset if it was a horse. Is it a bull? Is Elmer's a bull? I feel like it might be a bull. That'd is it a bowl? Is elmer's?
Brad:a bowl. I feel like it might be a bowl.
Dylan:That'd be really on the nose, wouldn't it? Or on the hook there's glue, okay, so so the transit power symbol, now transitivity properties okay would say that a equals b, so that's the gradual replacement principle got.
Brad:So the original ship to the all new parts ship. That's gradual replacement. But a also equals C, which is the same parts principle. So all the same parts from the original ship end up in the same, in the C ship as old parts but the same pieces.
Brad:Okay, but then if we used that transitivity property of identity, we would also have to say that B equals C, and that cannot be, because the ship with all the new parts cannot be the same thing as the ship with all of the old parts. Okay, see where we're going here. We're running into some problems yeah, okay, so we're not really running into problems that's.
Dylan:That's kind of a problem, okay a doesn't equal b and b doesn't equal c. What I'm just telling you a is not going to equal b, a is not going to equal b. No, how are you going to? How are you going to get the same dimension, lumber exact every time to the micron?
Brad:You do understand a thought experiment.
Dylan:Right, I do understand the thought experiment, but that is the same thing though. Like, okay, remove a thought from me and give it to you, how are you going to have the exact same feelings and thoughts and emotions around it? We're going there. Yeah, exactly, we're going there. That's what I know, but that's what.
Brad:I'm saying we're going there. Yeah, exactly, we're going there. That's what I know. But that's what I'm saying we're getting there.
Dylan:It's super easy. This is what happens when people fucking overgeneralize. Sorry, I've had a lot of people overgeneralize this week, so I'm going to get hostile here real fast. Don't do that, okay.
Brad:Not towards you, just the ether. Okay, we're going to run into some problems. So either one of those principles is wrong, so either that gradual replacement principle is wrong.
Brad:It says okay, yes, there is a threshold, that eventually, when something changes so much it ceases to be the original thing, okay, okay, or the same parts principle is not correct. So all of those parts in this scenario, you take them out of that scenario and you put them elsewhere. It doesn't mean that's the same thing or it's the entire transitivity principle of identity. That's wrong. So one of those three things has to be wrong, but which one is it? So we're going to play this game. We don't really know. Okay, this is part of the puzzle, all right. So we're going to play this game. We don't really know. Okay, this is part of the puzzle, all right, we're going. So now we go back to Hobbs. So he's rejecting. Do you have?
Dylan:a synopsis on Hobbs. Do you have a quick history? I think he was a tiger.
Brad:He has some stuff named after him Thomas Mm-hmm.
Dylan:The train?
Brad:No, not the train uh, what did he do? He did like the leviathan or something like that was one of his main works. Okay, he was around in like the 1650s, if you want to look him up.
Dylan:I think I probably studied him about 22 years ago.
Brad:okay, so he rejects the gradual replacement principle in regards to material things, material bodies. So if some part of the first material has been removed or another part has been added, that ship will be another being or another entity. Right, social contract. Oh yeah, that's right.
Dylan:Yeah, Leviathan the corporate.
Brad:What's up, right yeah, leviathan the corporate.
Dylan:What's up the civet? Yeah, yeah.
Brad:However, when regarding ever-changing items. So let's take people, okay, rivers, nations, right. So we say it's the Mississippi River, right? Well, what makes it the river the Mississippi? Yeah, geographical location, okay. So what happens? It? The river the mississippi? Yeah, geographical location, okay. So what happens when the river changes?
Dylan:rivers change paths over a course of time yeah, yeah still same river still the same river, okay okay, it changes water, right, water change rate.
Brad:So it's not the same water, yeah, still same river. It's not the same molecules they moved on. Oh, so it's not the same water, yeah, still the same river.
Dylan:It's not the same molecules. They moved on, oh so it's the same molecules. Okay.
Brad:Okay.
Dylan:Okay.
Brad:Whatever. So he in that sense, rejects the same parts principle. So is sameness of body allowing for parts to be switched out over time. So is this a criteria for personal identity? So think of like what we switch out, like we have different thoughts, different feelings. Your cells die and regenerate, right. So at what point are you a different person? Are you always the same person?
Dylan:so we're conflating identity with an identity. For the river, for instance, is geographic coordinates with the actual makeup compositionally, because at any given point the chemical makeup of the mississippi is going to be different.
Brad:Yeah, so yeah, so all those tractors in it.
Dylan:Yeah, so you really kind of have two beings. You have the identity portion and that is broken down into how you want to classify those identifications. You know it could be name, it could be traits, even though those traits might not those I'd trick. Identifying traits might not hold true to the person inside. You could be suicidal, but then you go through some great therapy and you're not suicidal anymore. But people are like, oh, that's a suicide guy. And you're like, well, that was a suicide guy. And you're like, well, that was the suicide guy, but that's not really an identifying trait for him anymore, because those thoughts, patterns, emotions have changed.
Brad:Okay, so, before we get to the next section, because you went exactly where I went with that, so I kind of stopped at that point, okay, and it was like just a little FYI for the listener right now I dylan has no notes.
Dylan:We have no notes. Brad has great notes. Actually, I have no notes that. I have minimal notes, but more than you, and we did not talk about this episode at all before we hit the record button, no.
Brad:So the first thing that my mind went to was incarceration. Oh so you committed a crime, and you committed a crime based on a set of circumstances and a thought pattern and whatever else right. So at what point say in the future where you have totally changed your mind about what you should be doing with your life and how you should act and things like that Are you a different person? So now are you incarcerated as a different person for something that you did not commit? But there's a continuity there, because your body did commit it, but your mind is a different thing.
Dylan:Yeah, so that probably goes to what's the best way to say this when the state needs a quota.
Dylan:I mean prisons. Prisons make a decent amount of money, um? No, the law doesn't. This is the problem is, this isn't explicitly laid out, and if it is, lawyers, you can come back at us in the comments, uh, and tell us that we're wrong. When you commit a crime, there's this punishment that says you are going to be punished for this. What it doesn't say is you and every iteration of you, you're giving up future self-use, um ability to be free. So understand that you're not just sacrificing you in the moments, freedoms later, you're sacrificing every iteration of you and the and I think that's where parole comes in a little bit which is parole if you, parole was the ability to say, hey, they have been rehabilitated, because what the correct term for prison is?
Dylan:rehabilitation, which is whether which is we can, that's a whole other episode, but at the end of the day the whole, the whole point of the justice system is rehabilitate so that you can go function in the norm is the whole point of the justice system it's the intention, it's not the there's difference, but but there's an interesting point in there as to when.
Brad:When do they decide that you are a different person also? So that does. I mean that does kind of stay with the topic there. So from the parole boards my.
Dylan:You know what? My bunk mate. He took all my wood man. He's the one trying to do new bank robbery, not me. You're like what he took what do you mean?
Brad:what?
Dylan:do you mean he took wood, like? I know, like he's just, he just took my parts and built a new ship over there. That was old me.
Brad:Now I'm the copper bandit, uh, but yeah, I mean, they literally are doing this thought experiment as to are you now a different person. Has enough changed in you that you are now a different person?
Dylan:Have you seen Primal Fear? Yeah, with Ed Norton. Yeah, wow, I did. I said, yes, I don't have a winning. I don't have a winning Good.
Brad:Okay.
Dylan:Good, okay, good, I think Primal Fears for anyone who hasn't seen it. I'm not going to ruin it for you because it's an awesome awesome. Also, it's 30 years old. It's an awesome movie, but it's Richard Gere, Edward Norman. But if anybody ever took the usual suspects away from me, like if anybody ever ruined that for me, I've also seen that one Proud of you.
Brad:But how good was it? Not as good as the Key and Peele sketch. Okay, yeah, but on Meow Street.
Dylan:I've completely lost my train of thought.
Brad:Oh no um hang in there, detective it's a lot like that.
Dylan:Yeah, it's now. So what's happened? Is you, in your previous version of yourself, sacrificed the future versions of you going to parole? Okay, how does somebody decide? And that is the problem, cause if you watch primal fear, you're like, well, some people are really good and they can say the right things, check the right boxes, make other people feel the right emotions actors, academy awards, and yeah, okay, they get to go free. But somebody who is actually changed just doesn't know how to convey that to a panel. Yeah, that's the problem, and so it's purely subjective and so that needs to go along with it. At the get go of your sentence, it's yeah, you fuck up. There's a. You know parole is an opportunity, but also understand that it's a game and if you don't play it right, you're probably not going to get there, even if you are a good person. Yeah, that's a whole other thing, but we've gone down some good side roads here.
Brad:Not really they all. They're all kind of involved in this.
Dylan:I know.
Brad:Well, I just those things I haven't thought about for a while. So we're kind of talking about. So the ship is the physical part, right? So when we're talking about identity, I don't.
Dylan:Is it because your point like it's the ship because it's named something, the name has no physical bearing? No so it's just an identification, it's just choosing how you identify.
Brad:Yes, but also in that sense the ship, if the ship did something.
Dylan:Ship broadened the beam. It's like, okay yeah.
Brad:But the ship did something. That's why they were committed. The ship traveled and saved people, and it was part of a thing an event, an idea. That happened Okay, and so there's also a but portion of that.
Dylan:Yes, but that's attached to the name.
Brad:If you go, yeah, but a name is an idea.
Dylan:Exactly so. What I'm saying is that would means nothing.
Brad:Okay, so the idea means something. It's what you get people to rally around.
Dylan:That's what means something.
Brad:Okay, so we want to go with ideas. It's so we're going going. We're going more mental. Let's go on with the brain. We're going with the ether, going with the brain okay all right. So there's some other fun ways that we can do about do this. Keep dissecting, let's go if someday it's possible to do a brain transplant. Oh, yeah our intuition? Are we talking about like face off?
Dylan:but better okay yeah, nick cage, I like that.
Brad:You've seen that one too you're doing really well on this episode a bunch you're doing really well on this episode I've seen. I've seen bad movies a whole bunch of times okay, yeah, so you.
Dylan:So you're a B-list guy.
Brad:Sometimes Okay yeah, all right. So our intuition would be Not judgmental.
Dylan:Yeah, I'm curious, I'm curious that if I put my brain into your body right, so You'd be really depressed. You didn't have this your whole life.
Brad:You also would be. Oh, oh, you wouldn't be, because you'd be my brain. Yeah, I'd be really upset. You don't have a brain anymore, so it were more likely to say that your body received a new brain, right?
Dylan:no, okay, my your brain received a new body.
Brad:Yes, okay, it's kind of what, but our brain received a new body, not that the body received a new show on netflix that did this um black mirror.
Dylan:No, no it was it was actually.
Dylan:I watched the first season and then the second season. I didn't get into um, it doesn't matter, but essentially they learned how to. It was kind of like science meets religion in a way, where they they learned how to we'll call it your soul. They captured your soul inside of a microchip, okay, and then a little bit of like your brain memories, all these things, but okay, and then they would just upload that program into a hard drive or whatever and they'd be like, okay, well, you committed a crime. 300 years from now, when your sentence is up, you can come back, which the whole punishment? There was everyone around you you love and died, and it's going to be really hard for you to reacclimate when you come in back. So, or they had these.
Brad:I don't like this. Yeah, what was that? It's kind of like the what was the Tom Cruise one.
Dylan:So there's this. The whole premise of this is there's this old kind of like super soldier assassin guy that they want to bring back to try to figure out a murder.
Brad:Is this Demolition man?
Dylan:It's kind of like demolition man that's flicks brain swap show. I don't know all right.
Brad:So altered carbon? Oh, I did not see that one. Yeah, altered carbon, and then in like season two he gets another body, like.
Dylan:So the main character has like one body and then he has a different body, so it's a different actor.
Brad:Yeah, so are. Are we saying it's the brain which we're still talking, a physical thing, right? So now I put my brain in your body. Okay, are you me now, because you have my brain probably probably, but it's not. It's the controller, but it's probably not from just the meat of the brain, right?
Dylan:okay in the sense it's the things inside the meat.
Brad:So the the meat is the hardware okay the. The software is what we're interested in.
Dylan:Okay, what's the software in the brain? The thoughts and consciousness and memories, and all of that, so all the cells that align in specific areas.
Brad:Oh, do you gonna tell me the magic of how the brain works? No well, I'm open.
Dylan:I don't have enough time right now to to explain the origin of consciousness to me it's really hard to know everything in this world so.
Brad:So we kind of get into this thing where it's like, okay, well, in that sense, what makes us up is maybe, maybe not the hardware at all, right, so we're looking again, we're looking more towards self-identity. That's what this is leading into. Okay, so the the thought experiment is not fun when we're talking about ships and cars every average size guy right now is saying thank you really oh, do they like the car thing now?
Dylan:it's probably talking about. It's a small dick joke what it's not about the hardware. It's not about the hardware.
Brad:It's not about the hardware, it's about the software. I don't know what that means. Yeah, so that leads us to. If it's the software and it's the memories and the consciousness and the behaviors and the cellular activity and electrical nuances between all the connectors and conductors and synapses, there you go. That was the word you were looking for. Can't something else do that? Yeah, there's a lot of people that do that way better than you, every day With everything, not a brain.
Dylan:What you're doing right now.
Brad:With a computer okay, so cpu central processing unit yes, okay so this is when I was talking to you off air about how some of these chapters lead into another one. I think the very first one is called brain in a vat and essentially it's abby, abby, normal. It is a lot more like the, the matrix, where imagine that you could take your brain out and hook it up to all kinds of sensors and processors. I thought you're going to talk about the trinity sex scene.
Dylan:They didn't know okay that didn't happen.
Brad:Okay, did I get the edited version I don't know ps. I still have to fill out forms when I go see my therapist. I even saw a different one and they still made me feel damn, it is that. It's that bad. I don't know, I haven't figured it out? I haven't figured it out, I'm beginning to think it's a me policy.
Dylan:I think it is a you policy. Do they take your shoelaces away?
Brad:no, I always wear cowboy boots. Um, so it can. If your brain is taken out of your body and hooked up to all of the, the nerve endings and all of these kind of things, would you be able to tell you know, if you were not part of the world? Or there's a, there's a computer that's just putting inputs into those nerve endings and, and, uh, synthesizing things like that all right.
Brad:So so the material body, we're always changing. We're growing or not growing, or cells dying, regenerating, losing tissue, losing body parts, losing 18 inches of your intestines, you know, just basic, normal, normal, whatever. So, um, it's not necessarily the, the, the material part. And also now we get to the software and it's like, well, that's uh, that's also questionable. You know, that's also changing constantly, that's also changing constantly and our thoughts are changing, our ideas are changing. Hopefully, hopefully, some of your ideas are changing, hopefully your ideas don't stay the same all the time.
Dylan:You think you should establish your values at 18 and just fucking hold on to them. Just go for it.
Brad:This is me. Yeah, just like riding the toboggan down the dam Hoover. Yeah, making a big one.
Dylan:Yeah, hold on tight I think one of my favorite damn references is gonna be uh, goldeneye okay james bond. Yeah, that's his. That's. That's pierce bronson's intro. He blew up the dam. Well, remember when he was running down the dam? And then he shoots, he jumps off the bungee jump because he's got the guards chasing. Okay, what was the tagline? Which one?
Brad:I don't know, whatever he said something surely, really.
Dylan:No, that's interesting yeah, that's your introduction to one of the greatest bonds ever okay, so material, mental, okay now, you don't have hardware without software.
Brad:You don't have software without hardware okay, so we have both of them, but both of them are ever changing. They're ever changing and they play.
Dylan:Yeah, they play roles. Okay, there's compatibility issues?
Brad:Yes, so we still run into this, this principle, idea of like.
Dylan:I think philosophers are overcomplicating this to make their lives easier, which is to make their lives easier. Yeah, please make their lives easier, which is to make their lives easier yeah, please tell me more the more confusing we make everything, the more our jobs, didn't you just?
Brad:send me that meme the other day. Which one? Uh, people who read philosophy yeah and it's people in berets and they're sipping coffee and smoking cigarettes and no, that's what like people think they are.
Dylan:And then it's. And then it says actual philosophers.
Brad:It's people just ripping heaters, looking super dirty in life yeah, he looked like he was having a mental breakdown over a table, yeah, that one was good. I think that sums up pretty good. So later in yeah, I don't have time frame on this. It's john lock. Okay, you can look that up. It's much later he comes at it. So this is at it. So this is probably Lock with an E, right? Yeah? Yeah, this is 20th, early 20th century mid 20th century.
Brad:He comes at it from a psychological perspective. Okay, so saying that basically, our psychological continuity is what identifies us as us, it's why we keep being ourselves, so it's the sense that we are. It's kind of that. This is really early intro philosophy, where how do you know you're the same person when you wake up as you were when you went to sleep? Yeah, was in.
Brad:He was an og enlightenment guy so, uh, it's, it's this thing where there's, there's all of these overlapping elements of, uh you know, part of your history and enduring memories and all of these things that kind of coagulate into making you you right, and so it's the string that is ever attached to each other through series of events and that's your memories and feelings and recollections and and all of these things. Now we're going gonna get to a problem with the psychological part.
Brad:Enter star trek shatner or um chris, it doesn't matter okay but we're gonna get into the future, not back to the future what?
Dylan:no, I just want to make sure you don't have Parkinson's. Thank you.
Brad:All right, so imagine we're in a Star Trek style transport system.
Dylan:Okay.
Brad:So this records your physical composition down to the last atom and then transfers it somewhere else. So teleportation, right? So we're going gonna leave our studio here and we're gonna end up on the moon, right so?
Dylan:like? Are we talking like wallace and gromit go to the moon for cheese? No, okay, no, nope what episode was that.
Brad:I don't know what that is.
Dylan:You don't know Wallace and Gromit? Nope, that hurts man.
Brad:Sounds like an old people show.
Dylan:Okay, all right.
Brad:So you arrive on the moon at the precise moment that your body is completely gone here, right? Mm-hmm, a grand day out, that's what it was. So, if you adhere to the psychological continuity thesis, there's an uninterrupted stream of memory, et cetera, flowing from the individual here to the one on the moon, right. So you are still you, according to the psychological principle that Locke is going towards right, and so your identity is clearly the same. Right, and so your identity is clearly the same. But suppose the transporter didn't work properly, and now you jumbled the bits. It copied you from here and sent you there, but forgot to annihilate you here. So now you exist here and you exist there. So which one is the real one? Which one is the true one?
Dylan:You know how we were talking about that. You overcomplicate things.
Brad:No, no, I'm really good looking.
Dylan:Yeah, that one.
Brad:Funny all the time.
Dylan:It was you make a decision in your early self and that makes consequences for all your future selves. I say we just kill both versions.
Brad:Okay, so logically we have an issue here, because from the psychological perspective, they're both you right. Yeah, but can there be two of you?
Dylan:exactly, exactly, uh, yeah, yeah sure, I mean scientifically. All you have to do is replicate every cell in the body exactly the same way, okay, okay, now let's go.
Brad:But that's not. But that's not the principle.
Dylan:So so brad. This is what's gonna happen. There's only gonna exist one version of you for one micro second yes okay, okay. So in that fleeting millisecond, okay, you are the exact same, but your environments are different. So the moment you've replicated and we'll say time stands still for that millisecond and you have no external outside influences. You are the same person, but if you're on the moon and you're on earth, those are two different wild environments. Your external inputs into your internals are going to create two different beings immediately. You're so smart.
Brad:I'm not smart. You're so smart why?
Dylan:Because that's where we're going. It's environmental man.
Brad:So you are temporarily, in that instant that the one is transferred and exist in a totally different place. Yeah, you are instantaneously different to the as one and after that instant, you are now two, two separate beings. Yep, because of that, yes, yes, external influences. So which one is the real one? This is the problem. No, it's not. Yes, it is no, it's not.
Dylan:How is it not so?
Brad:but your concept the laser, laser beam so is it the one that, because we we transferred you it's?
Dylan:you replicate? There's a replication system there you're.
Dylan:It's no different than we do virtual machines you create a copy and then one's living, one's being replicated and then transfer over as a final final. But do you see, logically, how this is a problem? Yeah, so you'd have to understand the underlying technology of the beam. You're going to talk about the laser beam. I'm telling you, yes, you have to, because that is that is fundamentally. Are you doing a copy and delete or are you doing so like if that's a copy? The idea is the copy and delete. So the, the idea of the copy and delete is that means the person on the moon is not you, the. The original person is the one that didn't get deleted.
Brad:You don't wipe it out here. That didn't get deleted. That's the one here, but but that one doesn't exist anymore. No, you said that it it fucked up. Okay, so if it fucks up, so that's the original one. Yeah, so that's the original one, even though, yeah, everything else is exactly the same but that's the same concept of cloning.
Dylan:It's like, yeah, cool, that's you, but it's not. You, it's not, but it's not the same.
Brad:Yeah, you copy and delete it, so the original one's gone because you have an inorganic matter making organic matter but what you're saying is because this one is here, this is the one we copied, even though they're both exactly the same and they both psychologically have the exact same continuation. Because this is the one we copied, this is the original one, and what that leads us to believe is because this one is here and we copied it. It's has something to do with the material being of it.
Dylan:Now, if you can transport, but they're the original which leads us back to the original problem yeah, which is underlying technology no, that's not the original.
Brad:The planks it's the wood planks, yeah, and that's why I original problem the planks it's the wood planks, yeah, and that's why I said it's the second ship. That's all new.
Dylan:No.
Brad:Sorry, third ship, c ship. Oh, the old stuff. Yeah, oh, it's the old stuff.
Dylan:The best part about the second one, b. Yeah, a is the original, b is the all new parts, c is the reconstructed. A is the original, b is the all new parts, c is the reconstructed. Problem with B is that what's our boy's name?
Brad:Theseus, theseus. He never touched the planks. No, he didn't. Oh, so this is the art thing.
Dylan:It's the art, thing, okay. All right so it's like that plank touched the plank that maybe touched him one time, so like transitively, but then there's going to be a point where it's going to be so swathed out Transcendental plankification. There's going to be a point where all the planks have been changed so many times that there's no transitive property of him originally being there anymore. Possibly, not possibly for realsies.
Brad:So so material. So it's gotta be material. What so material?
Dylan:So it's got to be material. What do you mean? It's not got to be material, Okay?
Brad:We're saying you see the puzzle part of this right?
Dylan:No, it's not the puzzle part You're saying worth is by a touch Like we're getting back down to like.
Brad:I'm not saying worth. We're talking about identity, not worth.
Dylan:Worth is the easiest identification of what the market says is true. Oh, easiest identification of what the market says is true.
Brad:Oh, it is. So what's the worth of my brain, what's the worth of my memory? What's the worth?
Dylan:of my personality for, uh, not many people are going to pay for you in the aftermarket okay, I disagree, I'm just I disagree okay I feel like I would be an upgrade. I'm not saying you wouldn't be, I'm just saying there are people maybe a little bit ahead of you. Dude philosophers used to look dumb. They don't. They're not yeah.
Brad:I like those crazy German ones. They look more fun, kant yeah. Wait is he French? No, so to end this a little bit, uh, david hume another. He's a scottish philosopher. Oh, yeah 1700s. He draws attention to the elusiveness of the self. However hard you look in on yourself, you can only ever detect individual thoughts, memories and experiences. The self is hard you look in on yourself, you can only ever detect individual thoughts, memories and experiences. The self is no more than the point of view that makes sense of our thought and experiences.
Dylan:I was also reading somewhere, though it's like trying to capture jello in your hands yeah, that's why you capture with your, your mouth. I can't leave.
Brad:Slip out. Before we started, I did see something else and I thought it was in here, but it has a lot more to do with and I think you touched on this. So it's that instantaneous temporal thing. So the problem with Like tempura shrimp, no, oh, okay, chicken.
Dylan:Oh Sorry, okay Chicken, oh Sorry, shellfish allergy.
Brad:That in these things that we're looking at, we're sort of looking at them in a 3D sort of sense instead of a 4D sense, where time is Just not checkers another major factor in it and like underlying technology no, okay, I don't think so I'm gonna go to bed with a nightmare about that word. I just I don't know, so what, so what.
Dylan:So that, for those of you that weren't picking up on it, we're talking about what makes you you. Is it the memories from long ago? Is it the now memories? Is it the memories all around? What is it? Is this even worth thinking about? Maybe it's your new prosthetic arm. I don't know, Could be. I mean, we talked about this in an earlier episode, like I've got some somebody else's blood in me somebody else has your blood in them double time now.
Brad:So just get done with that one. Can that? Uh, yeah, I feel bad for that guy. What makes?
Dylan:you, you. If he picks up any of my quirks, he's gonna be in for a life of pain I feel like there's definitely a black mirror episode about this Aliens. I don't know if there is an Aliens one oh, honestly. I don't know. I think Black Mirror's all about like shit.
Brad:That could actually happen in the present. It's all this kind of stuff.
Dylan:That's why I like it so much. It is fun.
Brad:It's also very scary.
Dylan:Why? Why is it scary? Why is this scary? Oh, this ship isn't that scary.
Brad:This isn't that scary. No, black Mirror is scary, but some of this, some of this, I think, is scary. Yeah, I think it's just in the sense of how do you know you're you, how?
Dylan:do I know I'm me? Yeah, because I wake up every morning hating the world. The exact same way.
Brad:That's funny. I wake up every morning feeling like P Diddy.
Dylan:Nailed it, the one on trial right now. What Is he? No, I think he's under investigation for some. Murder.
Brad:No, not this time.
Dylan:Oh, pee, pee, I think some underage stuff oh.
Brad:Like things he did when he was not P Diddy, puff Daddy.
Dylan:Oh, oh, like things he did when he was not P Diddy.
Brad:Puff.
Dylan:Daddy, oh yeah, puffy, yeah, puffy, smalls Puffy Did Jennifer Lopez date. Puff Daddy, for sure, okay.
Brad:Probably yeah, but should he really be on trial for things that he did when he wasn't him?
Dylan:I will refer back to the statute. Oh yes, he gave up his future selves.
Brad:He did refer back to the statue. Oh yes, he gave up his future selves, he did. I think that's a thing. Yeah, can I give up my future selves for what? I don't know? What are you gonna trade off? Uh, could just be really awesome right now for how long?
Dylan:um, I don't know, gotta gamble like what's? What's enough time for you to try to make as much awesome shit happen to then know that, after that awesome period's over, life is gonna fall back to where it was, unless you were. Try to make as much awesome shit happen to then know that, after that awesome period's over, life is going to fall back to where it was, unless you were able to build some sort of nest egg. What's your limit?
Brad:what's your limitless timeline? No, again, you just go back to the money. Um, yeah, but what if? What if all I built was memories?
Dylan:Then you're going to be in a world of despair the rest of your life. Can you find happiness and solace in those memories? Are you going to be grasping at those memories? It's about how you react to them. A little bit of hardware, a little bit of software.
Brad:I read something the other day that parents are only living to be memories for their kids. Whoa Jesus, I was like wow.
Dylan:Yeah, I think my dad probably does that. That's something He'll be like. We'll do this. It'll be cool. You're like what?
Brad:You just got to decide what kind of memories you're going to be. Really yeah, and are they really?
Dylan:you yeah, nobody knows.
Brad:That was supposed to be the ending line. I Really yeah. And are they really you? Yeah, no, nobody knows.
Dylan:That was supposed to be the ending line.
Brad:I'm really sad to see that people. Yeah, I know You're still here, it's over, go home, go.