Embark on a captivating odyssey through the shadows of Plato's Allegory of the Cave with Brad and me, as we peel back the layers of reality, knowledge, and the blissful spark of enlightenment that beckons from beyond our digital screens. With wit as sharp as the flickering flames that cast those ancient shadows, we navigate the murky waters of social-media-induced delusions, all the while juxtaposing the profound wisdom of antiquity with the relentless buzz of modern trends. Prepare to be whisked away from the ephemeral 'fit check' fads and plunged into the depth of philosophical musings that have withstood the test of time.
Ever found yourself questioning the nature of your own reality, or chuckling at the absurdity of trying to enlighten the happily ignorant? Sit back and join us for a hearty laugh and a healthy dose of introspection. We take you on a journey from the allegorical chains of Plato's prisoners to the popcorn-scented musings on the impacts of our favorite films. It's a rollercoaster ride through the stages of enlightenment, complete with side-splitting detours into the trials of troubleshooting Dad's network issues and the skeptical mindscape of modern-day philosophy.
As we wrap up this philosophical feast with a flourish, don't be surprised if you find yourself pondering the Prometheus within, or the Socratic gadfly buzzing around society's complacent ears. We engage in the dance of discourse, inviting you to participate in the eternal conversation about the very essence of our collective existence. So, grab your earbuds, relax, and let the conversation of millennia wash over you, all while promising not to blame us for any friends you might lose to the all-consuming allure of our delightful banter.
Embark on a captivating odyssey through the shadows of Plato's Allegory of the Cave with Brad and me, as we peel back the layers of reality, knowledge, and the blissful spark of enlightenment that beckons from beyond our digital screens. With wit as sharp as the flickering flames that cast those ancient shadows, we navigate the murky waters of social-media-induced delusions, all the while juxtaposing the profound wisdom of antiquity with the relentless buzz of modern trends. Prepare to be whisked away from the ephemeral 'fit check' fads and plunged into the depth of philosophical musings that have withstood the test of time.
Ever found yourself questioning the nature of your own reality, or chuckling at the absurdity of trying to enlighten the happily ignorant? Sit back and join us for a hearty laugh and a healthy dose of introspection. We take you on a journey from the allegorical chains of Plato's prisoners to the popcorn-scented musings on the impacts of our favorite films. It's a rollercoaster ride through the stages of enlightenment, complete with side-splitting detours into the trials of troubleshooting Dad's network issues and the skeptical mindscape of modern-day philosophy.
As we wrap up this philosophical feast with a flourish, don't be surprised if you find yourself pondering the Prometheus within, or the Socratic gadfly buzzing around society's complacent ears. We engage in the dance of discourse, inviting you to participate in the eternal conversation about the very essence of our collective existence. So, grab your earbuds, relax, and let the conversation of millennia wash over you, all while promising not to blame us for any friends you might lose to the all-consuming allure of our delightful banter.
This is the Terribly Unoblivious Podcast.
Brad:Yep.
Dave:I said it before and I'll say it again Life moves pretty fast.
Brad:You don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
Dave:Okay, that might be the quickest turnaround time from not having any podcast gear set up to having podcast gear set up and recording what it was all here oh yeah, that's right, we have a studio. We're going to have a studio. Allegedly we bought. We bought a condo for the studio. You bought a condo. I bought a condo for myself, but it's just a condo. I bought a condo for myself, but it's just going to happen to work out to be a studio as well. I didn't buy shit.
Brad:I didn't do any of this, yeah.
Dave:And then lawyers in 25 years when Brad and I are having an ugly divorce. Remember the statement. I don't even want it it doesn't even have basis in the company. No, that'll be the argument. Be the argument. I will say I was forced to work in this environment.
Brad:Good, I, I hope you come at me for, um, uh, right now, laws right now, I am just ignorant and I'm I'm just, I'm comfortable inside my cave I've.
Dave:How do you always find a way to segue in today's episode with my banter in the beginning?
Brad:Cause I should have been a newscaster. Should have been a newscaster, jk, you're good at it.
Dave:No, no, why not?
Brad:Because I don't have that voice. I don't have the news voice. I guess you don't. You have to today on terribly unoblivious we are going to talk about stuff the moon and everything that goes along with it how it's fake or is it?
Dave:yeah, that would be.
Brad:That would be rough. It's not what we're talking about. We're actually talking about caves, your favorite thing actually actually talking about some social media stuff. I just came up with my plan theme for tomorrow what's your plan theme tomorrow um guy upside down in a cave. Oh god, please don't do that.
Dave:Yeah, okay just walked right into that one, uh. So going back, uh, two episodes now we're gonna do a little. We're going to pull back into your philosophy book. Oh, are we? Oh, I thought we were. Did you write a different episode?
Brad:I'm sorry, you again, I'm terribly unprepared, and Brad Hold on. I wrote notes.
Dave:And Brad is prepared in episode.
Brad:Oh, it is in here, okay, and look at that.
Dave:Oh, love it. It's in a bunch of places and I'm super famous and I and I don't know much about it, he didn't even. Actually, I had a feeling I knew which one was coming, but I didn't look it up on purpose because it's more fun just to have some unscripted banter.
Brad:Everybody knows, not everybody.
Dave:Does everyone know?
Brad:A lot of people know this story in some sense. Okay, uh, we're going to be covering the allegory of the cave by Plato, and this appears in his book the Republic, where he lays out everything that society and politics and people should be like, I guess, in the most ideal form. So this is okay. He covers a lot in that book. This is just a small portion of it.
Dave:So we are get your phone off the table and stop it buzzing. Can't stop it, Won't stop, can't stop.
Brad:So we're actually going to start with Soren Kierkegaard. Okay, because he has a nice little intro into. Do you want to tell the audience who that is?
Dave:He's a Danish philosopher. Okay, a little quick bio. Do we know dates times, 1800s?
Brad:Okay, that's just a hundred year variability. Existentialist or proto-existentialist, from Denmark, copenhagen, actually, 1813 to 1825. You might recognize his name from famous movies such as Wayne's World, wayne's World 2? I can't remember which one it was. They reference him.
Dave:What was the reference? I don't know. They just reference him, okay.
Brad:They were speaking. What was that girl? He meets, remember that. And they were speaking like Cantonese Cantonese, that's his girlfriend Cause then he's like yeah, good guard. Oh, that's right yeah. Oh that's him, okay. So Kierkegaard once said there are two ways to be fooled One is to believe what isn't true, and the other is to refuse to believe what is true. Makes sense, okay.
Dave:That goes a little bit back to. Was that the flame of reason? Is that what you have there? When he talks about open-mindedness Coaster, it's my coaster? Yeah, it does a little bit of that Just because you believe something completely crazy doesn't make you actually open-minded.
Brad:No, no, I shouldn't Sometimes nor sane or smart or yeah, but sometimes the opposite is true. Okay, so the allegory of the cave we're going to it. It is really jordan peterson's gonna love this. Oh, it's the archetypal hero's journey, okay, and it it comes from some stories previous to this, so this was written like 300 bc, something like that.
Brad:Okay, was plato's time somewhere around there and starting early with the archetypes. Yeah, prior to that is, a lot of these archetypes would have come from greek mythology and then, prior to that is, a lot of these archetypes would have come from Greek mythology and then, previous to that, there was other mythologies and if you guys remember the oh, what was the fire God that burned his mom a lot, you know that one, the Japanese one, yeah, oh, so there's, there are these kinds of archetypes and they walked around the pole wrong.
Dave:Yeah, they walked around the pole wrong, you're right. Yeah, I remember, I actually pay attention.
Brad:So the archetype of the hero is usually that the hero brings light or wisdom or enlightenment to a downtrodden people. Okay, downtrodden people, okay. This story is one of Western philosophy's most influential philosophical concepts because it talks about the nature of reality, it talks about knowledge and it gets into epistemology a little bit. So the study of knowledge and how do we know what's true? And and things like that, um, our perceptions, and what actually is real enlightenment. So it kind of goes on to all of these things and, uh, we've talked about this way early on, that Plato kind of sets a standard for Western philosophy. Uh, up until who? Maybe some of the postmodernists start stepping away from it a little bit, but a lot of the ideas that come through almost all Western philosophers, they got a pretty deep root in Plato somewhere. So the idea is that he sets forth, while everyone doesn't agree with them, they're playing on the same field that Plato set up. Essentially they're playing his game.
Brad:Yeah, okay, yeah, now you can go into like Eastern philosophy, and that's a different story because they apply both their kind of own set of rules. Okay, so it's yeah, it's very wide reaching, I think, shall we say so, it covers a lot of basis in life. Yeah, it's very wide reaching.
Dave:I think, Shall. We say so we just it covers a lot of basis in life. Yeah, it's going to touch on a lot of things.
Brad:Yes, Okay, so let's get into it. Why? Let's start with a why. Why should we study these things Like, why study any of this shit Really? And people that are like I was introduced to this in my junior year, high school maybe, and so Plato's cave is a real introductory like, while you can get really deep into it and it touches on a lot of things, it's also a simple story. It's an allegory which is a story and you can take some little piece of it. You know whether or not you're understanding the whole thing or the full implication that he is intending, or, um, whatever. So it's, it's a really good like way to dip your toe into philosophy, and so that's why a lot of especially high schoolers, and definitely like intro to philosophy and college and things like that, we'll teach this kind of thing.
Dave:It's it's Ted Lassa a lot of good positivity moments throughout it. You know it's. It's it's ted lasso a lot of good positivity moments throughout it. You know it's.
Brad:It's got an overall arching theme, but there's a lot of little lessons dabbled yes, yes, and because of this, because the way he sets it up in a story, like, it's easy to follow along, it's not super complex, that's gonna be a problem any.
Dave:Apparently it is complex, it's gonna be a real problem I don't think anyone on the radio has heard a cat sneeze before.
Brad:Well, they heard that one, Wow. So by studying these things and trying to understand them a little bit when we come into problems such as what Plato is going to get into. Here we have a little bit of a roadmap on how we can think about these things and, even if we don't think the way that he does, it gives us a little bit of a view on how we can start thinking about them and processing through them.
Dave:Okay, so you're going to lay out some rules for the audience to put themselves in, keep themselves in while they're thinking about these things with us. No, okay, no what.
Brad:You just said it.
Dave:Okay.
Brad:No, I'm going to give you the story, let's do it All, right. So I'm going to share a photo of this because it makes it even easier, but, like anyone reading Plato, there are no pictures, so we're going to have to describe it. So, imagine there are prisoners in a cave Okay. Subterranean dwelling, okay. Inside this cave, we're going to visualize a like a brick wall, a six foot high brick wall, okay, and these prisoners are chained to the brick wall in such a way that they're sitting down on the ground, their backs are against the wall and their head or neck are bound in such a way that they can only look straightforward, okay, and straightforward is the actual cave wall right Now. Behind them is a walkway, so behind the wall that they're chained to is a walkway that people can walk to and from, and behind that walkway is a big fire, right? So the people that are actually using this walkway do not cast a shadow because the fire is above them, okay, but they hold on poles, figures that do cast shadows, so you have a fire casting the shadow of a figure that is being carried by real people onto this cave wall that the prisoners see, okay, okay. So the prisoners are only seeing the shadows of figures that are held by real people. They do not see real people, they do not see the actual figures. All they see are the shadows.
Brad:Okay, so that is, that is the setup. So we want to talk about that. Or you want to keep going? Let's talk about it. So you can break that, because there's going to be different uh scenes to this story and in each scene you can kind of talk about, uh, what the implication is of. So you have quote unquote prisoners yeah, I don't know how else you describe that, because they're bound to a, to a thing, they're not allowed to leave and they have no interaction with the outside world at all. The only thing they see are these shadows. Okay, so today, I think I think today more than ever we can relate more to the story than people, even a hundred years ago, okay, and the way that we can do that is through the media, social media, things that we perceive that we see senses.
Dave:So what we're getting at is that you're not able to use all of your senses in both cases, because well, you are, you are using your senses but you're just not having access to all of the information, and I think that in and you can make arguments about.
Brad:You know there used to be papers and newspapers and then there used to be stories and things like that, but, like what we've talked about before, the misinformation is not as abundant as it is today. Right, so the prisoners, basically, are being fed misinformation. Okay, because what they're seeing is it's not actually people.
Brad:It is real, but they have no basis of knowledge to compare it to anything else. Okay, so they accept it as a reality and they name things and they, you know that that is the life to them. Similarly, I think in today's world, we can easily slip into something that we think resembles reality because we're so used to seeing it, but we lose some perception on what is actually happening around that.
Dave:So our senses only show us the shadow of the true kind of essence behind everything. Yes, essence behind everything. Yes, the there it's while things are happening in the background. People can.
Brad:People can choose what shadow they're casting, or others, you know well, in this sense, you can look at the prisoners being bound also as a lack of uh freedom and specifically freedom of movement to learn.
Dave:So in today's day and age we can extrapolate this out to a little bit of us versus them, kind of that herd mentality, and then social media only being able to present certain things and then having people latch onto that because they don't kind of what we've talked about other episodes, previous episodes. People don't want to leave that herd mentality. You know we'll talk about braving the wilderness, because they're fearful to go, wander themselves out, and so them being bound in that wall would be them not braving the wilderness.
Brad:Yes, okay, and we'll, we will get to that as as our archetypal hero leaves and tries to come back, okay, I think an interesting point is at least, in the cave, these people were not. They didn't choose to chain themselves to this wall. That's just what they've always known. That's and whatever. Yeah, there's obviously some problems with that as to how they got there and did all that kind of stuff, but we choose you as we relate to today and what we consume in the media that we consume and the things that we watch.
Brad:We are doing that a bit to ourselves. So is it chaining ourselves? So, in a sense, you can say, the people walking behind the wall holding the figures, they're kind of in charge of what the prisoners see, right, because they have to hold it up or not hold it up, or they choose what to hold up. Okay, but the prisoners don't really have any option to not look like. That's pretty much their only option besides closing their eyes, putting blinders on right. We have lots of options. We still have people walking behind the wall and kind of picking and choosing the things that they put out and want us to see. Okay, but we actually have the freedom to move, move and look at that or not. Look at that or look at something else.
Brad:um so, or or look at them questioning, thinking, critical thinking so in that sense, I think there is a large group of us and I think at some point all of us are guilty of this of of choosing to purposefully be the prisoner because it's kind of comfortable, we just it's comfy sometimes, you kind of comfortable, we just it's comfy. Sometimes you kind of sit there and somebody puts on the show for you.
Dave:Watch the picture show. Yeah, so where's my popcorn?
Brad:So that's extra butter. That's the beginning of it.
Dave:Speaking of butter, did you ever go to Nova six and just pump your own, bro, I used to have like two inches of butter just in the you know what I have right now?
Brad:What?
Dave:what? Yeah, like, airs, like, like it's. I know that, I know that aerosol, I know that it's the I can't believe, but but that's like hand pop, that's, that was the old school one.
Brad:The hand pump now it's.
Dave:Now it's pressurized and they figured out how to not make it foam.
Brad:It doesn't foam no, that's some clark, griswold shit yeah okay. So we make, we make, we pop our popcorn. And then how do you pop your popcorn? On the oven, on the stovetop? You do, you do If you pop, or do you have a? Do you have a a no worldly pop Crisco and popcorn kernels and put it in a pan?
Dave:Yeah, do you cover it and you just shake it. Yeah, okay, I use, I use the Dutch oven. And do you know I use for butter A real stick of Kerry golden. They just melted in a saucepan.
Brad:Wow, Look at you go, dude. For all you butter connoisseurs out there.
Dave:Life-changing, life-changing. I suggest it to anyone. I don't have a microwave in this house, so so oh, can we talk about current day trends? Yeah, let's do it.
Brad:It's our episode. Nobody's going to stop us. This is definitely into. The only thing I really wanted to touch on was that the people walking behind the wall influence what the prisoners think to the extent that they show them what they can or cannot see. And now I see people and even kids on any kind of thing. Tiktok is a big one because they watch these people or influencers, thinking that they're famous, and then mimic them and it just it's hard. It's hard because they think that's reality. Yeah, and I think I'm going to take this trend on. Have you seen the fit check trend? People just go through? What was a really famous one was when they did. What's that one sorority that does or not sorority? But college, Is it like Alabama or is it like Bama?
Dave:Rush Rush is crazy in the South in general, so it's like Bama Rush or something.
Brad:And so these girls are going through and they're doing like I got this piece and I wear this from this and this is this, and then they go through all their jewelry and everything. Yeah, like that's a pretty famous one. Okay, so now you have like nine year olds doing this, like I got this from Target and I found this, you know, in the hamper, and this is from this place. Like wow, that's, but I think I'm going to start doing it for myself. Okay, like out in the workshop, please. Yeah, I think I think out in the workshop, please.
Dave:Yeah, I think, I think I could really kick something off here milwaukee.
Brad:Um, I got, I I found this in the garbage and I glued it together. That looks good it works the every day is going to be the same boots. I've been wearing them for four years no holes? Probably not going to change, probably not. Yeah, so the idea that these things in fashion design just ideas, uh, like my son watches a natural herd mentality it's.
Dave:It's also hard to watch that and not see somebody blow up for there's originality there, because the original ones that blow up there's originality they're doing something different. Yeah, that's the difference. But it's easy for everyone just to be like, oh they did it this way, so I'll do it that way. And it's hard to explain. Well, they got to where they're at because they did something original, so now go do something original.
Brad:You can still produce content, but go do something original or they figured out you know a soundbite second, or how, how often to switch the camera angle and things like that. There's all that, the type of tone of voice that you use and things like that. But but really the thing that struck me is how, how easily influenced, uh, I mean really everybody is everybody, it's easy.
Brad:Because there's so much, so much out there. So continuing on. All of a sudden, one prisoner gets released, he becomes unshackled. Okay, he does the Hulk and breaks out. Is it like?
Dave:Robin Hood, like Prince of Thieves, where Kevin Cost costner breaks out, or did he break out in the beginning when he's in? He was.
Brad:He was a prisoner from the oh yeah, uh, he actually cut that guy's hand off from the, or the other guy cut that guy's hand. Yeah, that was. That was intense as a young kid. Good, good movie, though Good movie, another one that I've seen.
Dave:Wow, we're a couple episodes in a row now. Proud of you.
Brad:So prisoner is allowed to climb out of his cave.
Dave:Okay.
Brad:So imagine that you come out of a cave from the darkness and you get to climb up and now you're into the sunlight. Eyes have got to dilate hard. Your eyes hurt. He is temporarily, essentially blinded okay right the.
Brad:He can't see anything, his eyes can't adjust to anything.
Brad:As his vision adjusts, uh, he realizes that what he thought was his reality was not.
Brad:It was merely an illusion put on by a fire and some people, and because of that he begins to suffer. So the initial thought of everything that I've known up to this point has not been true. His sight kind of regains, okay, and once his eyes adjust, he starts to be able to pick up, uh, things that are in front of him, so he can start seeing shapes, and then he can start seeing the real objects and he can start seeing reflections and essentially he can adjust fully enough that he can look up and see the sky and the sun and all of these things. And so now we're getting out of the ignorance, which is the cave mentality, and all of these things that are surrounding him are pieces of knowledge, and then the sun is the top of it, okay. So as we get to it a little bit we talked before about this how Plato kind of has this hierarchy of things mm-hmm okay, so the the world of the forms, that would be the Sun.
Brad:So the Sun is the highest, and anytime you're talking about light, you're talking about knowledge or enlightenment. That's the, the typical metaphor. Has that ever happened to you? Have you ever been hit with something that that you thought was true, or something that you believed for a really long time and then suddenly found out not the case?
Dave:yeah, yeah and oh, we have to explain it. I was gonna, I was gonna say, when I realized that you couldn't fly like in Dragon Ball Z, that was a real kick in the pants. Really, I'm just god, that was it. Yeah, what was yours that you weren't gonna be six foot um, no, I had, I don't.
Brad:I still don't know if I'd fully believe that Honestly, someday. I had a real moment in junior high where I was like I'm going to be big. I'm going to be big one day. Not tall, I wasn't going to be tall, I was going to be strong. I was just going to be like, yeah, I'll be like 5'8" and I'll be like 190. Yeah, no, no, 172, soaking wet. Not, it didn't happen. No, no, it could happen.
Dave:I think I'm going to make it happen now, uh, that goes to the protein shake that you wanted on the way here. Yeah, I did You're going to need that little creatine? I did. I had this MSG with your creatine.
Brad:No, okay, no, thanks, that just stir fry swells. Ooh, I did have some MSG today.
Dave:Ooh, there you go. You already had it Kind of good, it's really good. Just a little bit, though. It's not authentic. It doesn't have MSG.
Brad:I've had this happen in a relationship, or what I thought was a relationship, or what I thought was going to be a relationship, maybe, maybe, oh where and it turned out not to be the person. Uh, no, it just turned out like you read everything wrong, you know, okay, and and I'm not accustomed to doing that usually I get a pretty good take on things, yeah and, and this wasn't like a one time, you know, like, oh, I got a, I got a good vibe one time, and so I thought yeah, you had a lot of vibes.
Brad:There was a lot of instances of potential vibes that I clearly did not. Was she a friend's owner Not handle properly? Okay. But yeah, then you confront that light and you're like, oh yeah, none of this was real. So it happens sometimes.
Dave:I think that's just the world in general for me. Every day I'm like, oh yeah, another disappointment.
Brad:But in that, but in that sense, you, just like he, has this initial suffering from realizing that none of that was true. It's quickly overtaken by the fact that but but now I am learning what is true and that's all this cool shit, and that's better than not.
Dave:This is shiny, this shows me, I think.
Brad:So it's kind of him immediately doing that about face, where he's like, yeah, okay, so everything was wrong, but now I get to find out what is really true, and so that's cool, it's exciting. I think it's exciting you get to learn what is the curve.
Dave:We brought up a couple of times where it's-.
Brad:Parabolic curve.
Dave:Well, there's that too. But people that don't know a lot understand. They don't know a lot. And then you learn a little bit, and then you think you know everything. And then it is a little bit like that, though, but it gets exciting. I feel like the more you learn and the more you realize it's out there and you're like I like to learn and I like new things, because I need that challenge and sometimes I like new things, I like shiny things Yep, I like to chase things that I don't think I can get.
Brad:Yep, oh, hit that hot take button, hot takes takes. My doctor told me I don't have adhd. Ah, that's a whole other episode.
Dave:Save it. Yeah, shove that shit back in your belly for a while, because when we start talking about those things, I'm like yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, I don't think you went to a real doctor. Well, I think big pharma gave that doctor some money because they're so behind on their scripts that they don't have enough. We don't need to add another one. Oh, we're behind.
Brad:They're subsidizing. No, yeah, add anymore Right.
Dave:We need the meth for other people All right.
Brad:So now our prisoner is is about to embark on the hard part of his hero's journey.
Dave:So let's recap. Okay, let's recap. Your senses only show a shadow of true essence of things if you're bound by certain constraints. Yes yeah, if there are restraints placed on your senses? Yes, Correct, moving from the darkness into the light. It's going to hurt because your eyes need to adjust and that's going to be. You know, your eyes are going to probably be the metaphor for your brain here, or?
Brad:thought.
Dave:Yes, thought process, so learning to critically think along the way. Understand things for your own.
Brad:Have you heard the thing that when your brain learns a new thing, it's never able to return to its previous size? I don't know if that's true.
Dave:I feel like that might be made up. I just I feel like you maybe make a connection in your synapses that you haven't made before. But but also that connection never closes no it's okay, it's open, you can bash your head across. It could die. Yeah, there you go. Not everything's everything's finite. Remember that, it's true. Okay, so we, we've. We've gone from the two lessons on on to the next. Okay, what's our third lesson? What's our third?
Brad:part of the story. The third part is now the philosopher's journey, Because now he has become enlightened and he feels compelled to go back down into the cave and tell his fellow prisoners this is not real life. The things that you are perceiving are not actually real. There's this whole other thing out there and you have no idea what it is.
Dave:uh, but the problem is this this television show wanna want an emmy on tv. What which isn't prison break, prison break, I don't think I want it.
Brad:I don't think he's. He's not trying to break my. Oh, okay, sorry, I think that's his goal, maybe okay, um, but he only has knowledge. He doesn't have like a hacksaw yet okay okay, so we're talking low level.
Dave:Just enough to know that this isn't the way dissemination of knowledge, not elimination of bondage can we go there?
Brad:okay, yeah, all right, I gotta actually think now so now the problem is he's been adjusted to the light. He sees the sun.
Brad:Now he's got to go back down into the dark. Okay, so he goes back down into the cave and because now his eyes are not accustomed to the dark and he's not able to see the shadows like he was when he lived in the dark, he stumbles and he fumbles around and he's not able to really see clearly down there. And so as he starts talking to those prisoners, they misinterpret his temporary vision impairment for stupidity. So they think look, you went up there and now you don't even know what any of this is. You're just an idiot.
Dave:And so they become. So he's a hard time conveying he has a hard time.
Brad:Not only does he have a hard time conveying, but they become, uh, almost violently cynical, counteractive to what he's trying to do. And so, dr fauci, the the harder that he tries to convey what is really out there, the more they resist. So, and this is his big metaphor for the task at hand, when philosophers try to, I guess, enlighten the masses on a new topic, so you're challenging a previously long-held belief, and that's not going to go very well. Almost ever it's not good.
Dave:It's not good. Don't tell me Barney doesn't exist.
Brad:He doesn't. He doesn't exist. This podcast is over. It's a guy, it's Roger, it's in his suit. So we come back to the masses, find a sense of comfort in their ignorance. So there's a real sense that I don't want to step out of the cave. I don't want to have to go into this light that apparently has made you disillusioned and stumbling and talking like a fool.
Dave:I've seen I've seen a guy smoke that before too, and he didn't turn out that great.
Brad:Smoke what I don't know. Smoke what the ribs. Oh Hickory, what do you smoke?
Dave:Nevermind, I missed it. Yeah, I know, it's okay.
Brad:So would they say I'm comfortable in my ignorance? Probably not, not most of them. It would take a reasonably enlightened person to have that much self-realization, I think, much like the Roger Craig, james Bond. I'm aware that double O's have a short lifespan, did you say roger did?
Dave:you say roger daniel craig.
Brad:You said roger craig oh, he's a good football player yeah, roger moore I was roger moore.
Dave:I did, I did, yeah, I did the crossover, yeah so don't, why do you gotta fuck it up like that? I like it. No, I like it. It's daniel craig. It's Daniel Craig, daniel Moore. It's Casino Royale Roger Craig and Daniel Moore. No, yeah, he's telling Em that her mistake won't be long-lived, because he understands we have a short life expectancy. That's a pretty ballsy statement, like it's okay. I have that much faith in me, yeah, yeah.
Brad:So they can become me. Yeah, yeah, so they, they can become uh angry.
Dave:Okay, defiant the masses are getting angry Take, take, talk ban tick talk, bam tick talk ban is right there.
Brad:Uh, that's just, it's going to be a problem.
Dave:Take it in my fucking shadows away. It's going. It's gonna be a problem and you can't tell me why you're taking my shadows away. Um, or I can see the shadows. What do you mean, you? Or what they can't tell you? Yeah, it's top secret.
Brad:Yeah, exactly, um, just also their way hui, the cell phone manufacturer.
Dave:Yeah, again, though, again, though we have the freedom to?
Brad:uh, we have the freedom of movement yep so unless the monopoly is involved, unless that's involved so as, as a more enlightened species in terms of consuming social media, we're able to look at other things, and we need to. I, I guess question I mean that's I've got questions Go.
Dave:Why don't people have all the fucking encyclopedias on their shelves anymore? You mail order that shit.
Brad:You got the whole Britannica series just wait, Because Wikipedia exists and they just constantly change.
Dave:But that leather-bound book is-. You imagine that guy shows up to your door and you're like, okay, k through L got there.
Brad:I remember being a kid and reading the ones in my grandma's basement and I was then wondering like, hey, why isn't this in here? I would do that at the library 60 years old yeah.
Dave:I'd be like what? Why isn't? Why is this not filled out? Times are moving a little fast now. K through L got updated last year. Would you like your two new bounds? Yeah, I would. Traveling door-to-door salesman what a time to be alive.
Brad:Can you imagine if they said in those that dinosaurs had feathers? Like the new edition was like oh, new revelation, dinosaurs have feathers. I would be like this is blasphemy. I'm gonna set these books on fire. I can't just can't deal with it?
Dave:and how do you know she's a witch?
Brad:uh, if she drowns?
Dave:what else floats on water? A duck, a duck. Oh, I think that scene in itself kind of exemplifies the masses of. We've got an ignorant person that's leading. You know what is strange about today?
Brad:though, is that I feel like we accept new knowledge too quickly, kind of too quickly, kind of too quickly. I remember several months ago when the government was basically just like, yeah, ufos exist and aliens are out there and we have some real knowledge of this, and everyone was like, okay, like I don't care, can you?
Dave:lower my taxes. Travis Kelsey is dating Taylor Swift. We got bigger shit to worry about.
Brad:Have you seen the Barbie movie? Some of these things come out and it just doesn't even register with people anymore what they feel is important has shifted.
Dave:We have notification fatigue.
Brad:Yeah, it's it.
Dave:I and the perfect example of my work is I. I get emails, I automated emails out of our CRM system, so like our client relations management system or content relations management system, and I get notified so much that it just I. It takes a lot for me to actually read one of the emails and I miss important shit sometimes, because 99% of the time it's bullshit and then 1% of the time it's important. And then I was and someone slipped through the cracks.
Brad:I feel like that's a you problem. I feel, like you made up that term. What Notification yeah.
Dave:No, it's a very real thing, yeah, real thing. Yeah, okay, never mind, it's like I have. I think we just get inundated with so much bs that people are tired of filtering it. It's an why would I burden myself with filtering more and more? And the the easy button here is why don't you reduce your connection, yes, and then make your, your notifications more valuable, but instead it's just let's all, let's ignore it all. Yeah.
Brad:Makes sense and just tune it out. Tune it out, I like that. So while this hero is on his journey, he kind of also has to realize that sometimes people aren't ready to leave the cave, they don't want to come out.
Dave:I mean half of Mr Mom. The movie was the kid wouldn't give up his uh, his blankie, his whoopee, his whoopee. Sorry, not his blankie, his whoopee yeah and he wasn't ready and then, finally, there was a moment. I don't remember what that moment was it's when he went into the room and he's like I think it's time he was like I'd like to take this moment to myself, dad, and he's just like okay, Lays back on the bed, puts his hands behind his head and he's just like, ah, what a good movie, it's a great one.
Dave:Oh, you saw that one too. Holy shit, the gravity of that. Hey, bring it on. Michael Keaton, love it. All right. So some people just aren't ready to leave.
Brad:Okay, so uh just aren't ready to leave, okay. So, uh, there have been lots of examples of this. If you want to go pre this, this is uh greek mythology. So it's prometheus. You know prometheus? Do you know the story of prometheus? Yes, remember. What is it? I don't know come on prometheus was a titan, uh, so one of the giant people and he, he sees the gods.
Dave:Where does atlas? So atlas is atlas, has the world on his back. He's trapped there. Yeah, and then prometheus, how many were there? Six, seven? What titans?
Brad:because only the gods feared the titans, but they put them away yes, okay, so prometheus was titan, and so he could see the gods up here, and then he could see mankind, the mortals below, and he can see that the gods have fire and that the mortals don't establishes. As caveman discovers fire and how to utilize that and keep it, the fire represents the knowledge, and so he takes this knowledge that the gods have and gives it to the mortals.
Dave:Technology, knowledge, civilization, because they can build off of this.
Brad:Yes, well, just, I mean the idea of enlightenment, so moving forward, of civilization. However, sometimes when you give people knowledge or what you'd consider the truth or enlightenment, the people previously holding on to that don't tend to take kindly to it. So prometheus got bound to a mountain where an eagle harassed him on a daily basis. That was his punishment. Uh and uh, well, uh, um, socrates. So plato's teacher, which is who plato mostly writes about, uh, was put to death in athens for basically disrupting the public policy and questioning, uh, those who were in charge of whether things were really being done the correct way or not and the ideas that they held. And so for that he got to drink some hemlock and died. So it is a real upsetting of the apple cart, and the fruits of your labor are often not rewarded until much later, often not rewarded until much later. So you don't until very recently. Uh, you don't see many philosophers that are famous in their time. It is typically much later. It's probably cause they'd crack habit, it's probably cause they seem fucking insane at the time.
Dave:Yeah.
Brad:So here go the crack habit.
Dave:I mean they might be onto something fucking insane at the time. Yeah, so Ergo the crack habit. I mean they might be onto something.
Brad:I miss the teeth, I would guess more shrooms or something Mm. So what about a modern day? You know another really good. Give me a modern day example of this, like as a story or movie Of what Of the cave? Of the allegory of the cave, barbie. Of what of the cave? Of the allegory of the cave, barbie movie. I haven't seen it. I haven't either, could be, but I haven't seen it.
Dave:I don't know, you don't know really go show matrix oh yeah, okay all right.
Brad:So the cave in the matrix is. I was gonna say, hancock, that's not.
Dave:I know it's just not, it, that's not god, I love that you've seen it, though I know that it's so disappointing.
Brad:I forgot, jason bateman was in that too. Yeah, so good, charlie's their own right.
Dave:Yeah, oh, also our spoiler alert will. Sm Smith slaps him.
Brad:Superhero. Oh, the cave in the Matrix was the incubators. Oh, so everyone was inside their own incubators, and the figures on the sticks that people would be carrying are just the electrical inputs that are tapped into their brain through the plugs.
Brad:It's the program they live in, right? So while everything seems real, because that is what they are experiencing through their senses, they do not have the ability to move and perceive in a different way. And there's also a real sense that most people, when exposed to what the reality is, they weren't able to make it so. Once they were unplugged, their brain literally couldn't compute what was happening and they just shut down. Um, on the, on the flip side, you have uh, who was it? Cyrus? Was he the? The bald computer guy where he wants to go back? He wants to go back into the cave. Yes, he's like, just fucking, give me that he's eating, give me that blue pill eating the steak.
Dave:And yeah, I know this is like I know this isn't real, but my brain's telling me this is juicy and tender and and he wants to go back and be rich so you have this and you you also have uh.
Brad:So Neo in, that is the real, like hero's journey he has to go through. He comes out of the shadows and the darkness. He's called into this adventure, uh, which is learning about what the matrix is, and he goes through these trials and tribulations about how he can, I guess, kind of convert himself into something greater, and then he has to return. So he has to go back into the Matrix and defeat so that he can help basically free the people there and learn Kung Fu, and learn Kung Fu, learn Kung Fu and maybe how to like I don't know dodge bullets and fly a helicopter and other things. So who's the Morpheus is a bit like the philosopher in that sense where he's. He's trying to figure out who, who's ready to leave and who's not right, who wants to stay in the shackles and who he can break free and get on his side. He's trying to build the team.
Dave:And he's looking for who's the?
Brad:oracle in this.
Dave:Prometheus.
Brad:The sun, I don't know. Okay, maybe there's some issues you want to talk about the issues.
Dave:Yeah, or my issues.
Brad:Okay, so Plato's hierarchy. He's got four levels Pyramid, pyramid scheme Ready. Buy my product? Okay, it's the best. You know what's better than my product? You selling my product on my team, that's better. Then we can both use it. Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't sure if you knew how pyramid scheme worked I know how it works, all right.
Dave:So on the bottom yoli yeah, yoli, okay yeah, okay, yeah, I'm super healthy I drink green, green shakes.
Brad:Yeah shit, your brains lose the weight, that's it's not yoli, that's alley Ollie.
Dave:I don't remember what the other one is Ellie.
Brad:Allegedly yeah, I don't know. First level imitations. So you can think of this as paintings. Let's go with representations, yes, okay, like a painting of a flower Okay, the next level up would be individuals. So now you have the actual flower, the real life flower Okay, that would be an individual. Then you have the concept, so the concept of beauty in a flower, or the redness of the flower, okay, okay, the redness of the flower.
Dave:Okay, okay.
Brad:And then you have this idea of the forms, which is the absolute perfection of the beauty in that flower, and it's not something that we can attain, right? So this world is other worldly. So I don't, I don't want to say cause I can't say for sure, like when we die we might go to the world of the forms, where things are perfect. So you see, uh, it's at.
Dave:Elysium. Is that Elysium?
Brad:I don't know, not sure. I haven't seen that one. Fuck you, quit bringing up those movies.
Dave:No, that's, that's the term for.
Brad:But it is a movie. Yeah, so there's.
Dave:Yeah, by the Greek religious. It was the afterlife. It was like that was their heaven, elysium. Okay.
Brad:So the world of the forms is like the perfect archetypes, right? So?
Dave:if the Jordan Petersons.
Brad:If Neo is right, so if the jordan peterson's, if neo is uh, I mean he is an individual in the movie the concept of neo is a step above that as the the hero's journey archetype. And then there would be another step above that, which is the creme de la creme. Right, neo's not perfect and we not perfect enough. Keanu reeves is perfect, plato would say not perfect enough I guess we gotta get john wickigan academy award.
Dave:Not perfect enough, okay. So you know it's never attainable never enough yeah, okay, I don't like that. You don't like that you can't become perfect, or that I don't like that. Everything exists outside of what we are capable of I think you can lose some form and function with that, or some form and order I. If that's the case, how do you, how do you, motivate people?
Brad:um, I'm sure he talks about that. Okay, because there is a real sense of, of that sense of like arete, where you're striving to be the best that you can be. Um, it's just that in any given topic, there's going to be something that is profoundly more perfect than what you're doing or what you are, what you're seeing. Does that make sense?
Dave:All right, I'm right there with you.
Brad:So what is like? What is one of the real important things of the cave it? It begs the question can we doubt what we are seeing? Right? So can we learn to question our own understanding about the nature of our reality? And if we're able to do that, our perception is probably going to widen and we're probably going to learn a lot more. If we, if we, don't ever doubt that what we see or what we think, or what we hear or know is incorrect, we have no reason to look elsewhere. Questions are good. So that's a. That's a big one.
Dave:That's. I think we I have this saying that I've stolen from others and it's, show your work. Um, and we, we were, we live in, or I work in, a very, uh, reactionary world. You know customer service it or you know third-party it. We, we wait for people to call, and not necessarily my team, but elements of our office wait for people to call for, not necessarily my team, but elements of our office wait for people to call for something to be wrong.
Dave:And the client inevitably say my computer doesn't work. And you're like, okay, is it plugged in that and that's? But then they'll say they'll immediately do that. I've already restarted, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this. Okay, so they've told us four things they've done. Now, how do we confirm they've actually done it? Because there's so many times where we've taken them at face value and we've wasted hours of resources over something they said they did but they actually do not, because they were malicious and were lying to us. They just didn't conceptually understand what it really meant to restart the computer or to make sure the monitors were plugged in, because there's hdmi and there's a power cord also. It's, it is okay, walk me through what you did. Let's show your work, and it's even engineer to engineer. Hey, I am escalating an issue to you right now. Yeah, okay, show your work, because either you have enough of a solid foundation for me to work off of and keep continuing on, or if you have elements of your base that are broken, then I have nothing to stand on.
Brad:So sure you work, yeah yeah, did you plug the computer in? Yes, I plugged in the power strip. Is the power strip on? Yeah, there's a power strip plugged in okay, yeah I plugged in the wall. Okay, did you make sure that that circuit's on? Does something else work in that plugin?
Dave:Okay, so I have. It happened yesterday with me and my dad. I did a bunch of stuff at his house for him, um, and he called me and he's like I don't think your network's working here. I'm like well, what do you mean? He's like I can't get the TV to turn on, so the network's bad, okay. Well, let me let me look at your network real fast. And I pulled up on my phone, cause there's a, there's an app that does it, for I mean I can see what is and isn't connected. And I'm like uh, it shows your smart controller. It's called savant, says it's offline. So why don't you go downstairs and look at that? Computer goes downstairs Yep, no green light.
Dave:Okay, why don't you unplug it? Plug it back in Still no green light. Okay, what's it plugged into power strip? Okay, is the power strip plugged in? Is it showing green? Yep, okay. Now pull the cord out of the power strip and put it into a different one. Oh, yeah, it's turning on. Okay, you've bad power strip, right? He's like oh well, that's great, it works now.
Brad:Yeah.
Dave:But guess what? It wasn't the network, it was your power strips broken, which has nothing to do with the network. So that's a reminder. Actually, I need to buy him a new power strip.
Brad:So so there there's that idea of, of can you constantly question. I mean essentially, that's what philosophy is right it is.
Dave:It's constantly questioning, but there are. I've seen this from people before. Well, how do? What is the very foundation of it all, and what can and can't we trust? And if that means nothing, then my mind is constantly spiraling and I have nothing to attach my hopes, dreams and reasons to.
Brad:And it's we will get there at some episode. The fact is even even the few.
Dave:What is being?
Brad:who, even the few people that have read heidegger and and want to ask that question. They don't live their life like that you can't it. It's really not efficient, no way to live your life, no right. So it's, but there are. So, when you get down to it, are you going to make assumptions and presuppositions? Have to, yes, you have to, but why? Because we don't fucking know everything it's very low level.
Dave:You're making very low level assumptions. You're not that allow you to build a base that is stable, because those low level assumptions aren't going to get ripped away.
Brad:But if you make some very high level assumptions, those have the ability to get ripped away and shake your world, and we're talking about assumptions, like I believe, because I perceive everything that is around me and that I can leave and come back and close my eyes and open my eyes and and all of these things, that this is my reality, yes, that I choose to believe that I am not in a simulation. Well, how do you know you're not in a simulation?
Dave:I don't, I don't, I can't, I cannot prove currently that.
Brad:I'm not in a simulation Right, but I, I don't, I can't, I cannot prove currently that I'm not in a simulation Right, but I, I choose to believe that. Okay, because all of the information that is given to me leads me to believe that this is real.
Dave:What, what what's the flip side? Oh, I believe I'm in a simulation. What does it change? It doesn't change anything besides the fact that you're stuck here. Um yeah, what are are you gonna do about it? How are you gonna get yourself out? Find?
Brad:morpheus, yeah, morpheus, I just, I just need to. I just need to get on dos. I just need to get on ms dos in the middle of the night and play techno music and I'll be fine, he will come.
Dave:For me. Morpheus is like a really bad aesthetics company hardware piece. Yeah, I think, actually. I think it is actually a laser.
Brad:I feel like morpheus is probably a lot of bad things. Yeah, based off of that movie. Yeah, so in that sense, uh, the socrates is very famous line, uh, which is that there's no meaning in living in the darkness, like the prisoners that are chained to the wall. There's no meaning to their life, whether they live or die, or nothing changes in the world outside of them. And so his saying is the unexamined life is not worth living. Why? Because you're just watching the wall. That's what you're doing. You're not actively engaging, so you're not actively poking, prodding, have effect on, on the things that are around you. In order to do that, you need to gain some new perspectives and question things right, and that the last kind of piece is, if you do go on that journey and I think there, I think there will be some people going on this journey I know one of our listeners that text me and said hey, I'm buying philosophy books.
Brad:What should I get? I was like fucking everything. I go. Where are you? And she goes books a million. And I was like buy all the fucking Bibles I had to go past. There's nothing else there.
Dave:I had to go by. I had to go past. There's nothing else there. I had to go by. I had to go by 11 racks to get to this section.
Brad:It's a little dusty. It's in the back I wasn't I don't think the light bulbs work back here but that there's some. There's some good shit out there. There's tons of boring stuff too, you know it's not all super exciting, but there are exciting ways to think about it. Um, but just know that as you go on that journey and this isn't just philosophy related, but anything knowledge-based which is philosophy-based the more you learn and the more you challenge other people, the more they're probably not going to like you. So going against the status quo is not comfortable. You're brave of going to like you. So going against the status quo uh it's.
Brad:It's not comfortable.
Dave:You're brave of the wilderness, yes.
Brad:So, if you find yourself going down that road, go back and listen to the braving, the wilderness episodes, because that's where you're going to find yourself. Uh, but so so it is. Can you have the courage to journey towards enlightenment, even if it means distancing yourself from the ones that you love, the people that you normally surround yourself with? Right, and I guess if they really love you, then they're gonna be accepting of that journey, would, hopefully, would be the thing. But there's plenty of instances, especially when we're younger and by younger I mean college and past that really where you surround yourself with people and as soon as you start kind of breaking out of the status quo, of what the normal conditions, are.
Brad:Yeah, yeah, suddenly, suddenly we don't seem so tight anymore by yeah, so just know that that's, that's a real possibility, so it's okay, that happens.
Dave:It happens all the time You'll find people. Unless you're in a really small town in the middle of wyoming, you'll still find people. And that's not a knock against. Wyoming happen like wyoming.
Brad:It's just a remote place, it's just hard to yeah, we, we like these homogenous neat, or? Zones right, neat, orderly boxes, and so we kind of all just kind of mold ourselves into these a little bit. Sometimes we're faking it and just so we don't kind of disrupt that. But if you really want to start getting down to things, you're gonna have to disrupt that. You're gonna have to stand up to somebody that's like vaccines are not a real thing.
Brad:You're like well okay, I think there's a little bit of science behind some of that so, yeah, let's, let's talk about eradicating polio, so letting that back in.
Brad:So that's good job, guys but, but there are these things where and, and that's that's a, that's like a reversal. I I find that some of the arguments that we're in today are not so much, uh, because people are moving forward too much, it's because people are going backwards too much. Not so much because people are moving forward too much, it's because people are going backwards too much, and and you're having to like, fight that same fight all over again. But the same can be true. And the the ones that I think of are is it? He's on? He's been on Rogan a ton of times. He's got a thing on Netflix, it's Graham Hancock, and so all of the ancient civilizations things like that.
Brad:And a lot of the ways that he thinks about things and actually how far civilizations have gone back and what kind of intelligence they had. They talk about the dark ages for a reason and what.
Dave:I mean like what Europe was post Roman empire was wild yeah, I mean just prior to prior to that prior to like Egypt, egypt.
Brad:You know, like you're talking, 10 000 years ago there was probably there, he thinks, a civilization at least as advanced as egypt. And 30 years ago, I mean still today he's. He's shunned by a lot of people, but 30 years ago he was like a leper. You know, get out of here. You have no business being here. And the more and more knowledge that comes out it raises a lot.
Brad:I mean maybe not so much answers, but a lot more questions where it's like, well, yeah, that does kind of make sense. And also, where are all the significant answers for the questions that he's asking that everybody seems to previously have known the answers to? So are you gonna face some, some struggles? Yeah you are.
Dave:You're not gonna learn comfortably yeah, learning's not usually comfortable no so, and if it's fun you're doing it wrong. Usually comfortable no so, and if it's fun you're doing it wrong no no, no, yes, maybe sometimes, I don't know learning can be fun. Yeah, it is, but it's okay. I mean you have to understand that your head's gonna go through. You're gonna bash your head in a couple times, like if you're just constantly making progress without some interruption, you might not be doing it right.
Brad:Well, if, if something is easy, you're typically not learning, you need stressors. Yes, if you're doing something and it's easy, you kind of already know how to do it. Does that make sense? It does. You know what I would love what? I would love someone to ask a question about this episode.
Dave:Who me? No, oh, anybody. There's nobody here to mean you oh, I mean later. Oh, not right put it in the comments, guys like. Subscribe all the fun shit. Share it with your friends, please.
Brad:Yeah, that'd be cool, do that sure, sure, you guys have friends right yeah, hey, you might not after you listen to this.
Dave:You too, you got friends. Share it all. Right, um any. Any last thoughts before we wrap this up, besides the comments, um, tiny hands no, I'm about to drink a lot.
Brad:Get into a hot takes episode, love it all right thanks guys, see you guys later.
Dave:Bye, you're still here it's over go home go.