The Musicpreneur Space
A Conversation with Dr. Kyle Blake Jones
On today's episode, we had the pleasure of hosting this remarkable saxophonist and arts administration professional, who not only reveals the intricate dance behind the curtains of artistic endeavors but also the power of adaptability in a musician's life.
Outro
On today's episode, we had the pleasure of hosting this remarkable saxophonist and arts administration professional, who not only reveals the intricate dance behind the curtains of artistic endeavors but also the power of adaptability in a musician's life.
Outro
All right. So I'm here with Kyle Blake Jones, and why don't we let you just introduce yourself? I know I know you from from NASA and everything, but why don't you tell everybody what you do, who you are and why you do it?
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, absolutely Well. First, austin, thank you for letting me be a part of this podcast. I'm always really tickled and humbled whenever people just want to have a conversation and get to know a little bit more about me, and so hopefully the audience finds this interesting or engaging. So thanks again for letting me be a part of it. So, as Austin said, my name is Kyle Jones. I've recently tapped on Doctor to the front of that, which is still really weird to me.
Austin McFarland:That's right. Congratulations.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Hey, thanks, I'm still getting used to it. It really didn't hit, I think, this summer, just because summer is such an unceremonious time to graduate, and so it was sort of here's your degree, congratulations, you did it, and there was very little pop in circumstance surrounding it. So now that I'm teaching again and I'm back and having those in person one-on-one interactions with students in a classroom, people have been starting to call me Dr Jones, and that first week it was a little bit oh, I guess this is who I am now. Anyway, all that being said, yeah, so now officially, dr Kyle Jones.
Dr. Kyle Jones:I graduated from the University of Missouri, kansas City, witha doctorate in saxophone performance. I've been here since the fall of 2020. And right now Kansas City definitely feels like home. It took a while to get to that point, but I'm kind of in love with the city. Prior to that, I was at the University of Texas at Austin. I was doing an artist diploma, I did my master's at Peabody Conservatory and then my undergrad was local.
Dr. Kyle Jones:I'm an East Tennessee native, grew up in Kingsport, tennessee Fun fact home of the Eastman Chemical Company, same Eastman as the namesake of the School of Music in Rochester, new York. We don't have a big music conservatory in Kingsport, tennessee, I hate to say, but yeah, I went to East Tennessee State University, taught to use as a middle school band director, as an assistant excuse me, middle school band director and then, yeah, found myself kind of diving headfirst into higher education. And here we are, in addition to teaching, getting the doctorate with the goal of, you know, eventually excuse me settling into a full-time collegiate teaching position. I also have been for the past several years having a kind of growing presence in arts administration. It initially was a little bit of a curiosity.
Dr. Kyle Jones:That started actually through grant writing, through getting my first successfully funded grant, and then through just collaborating more, both with saxophonists in our kind of academic saxophone community, but then also seeking broader collaborations. I started getting more into the fold of Arts Admin and it's a place that I still occupy and hopefully a space that I can continue to be a part of. It's just been really fascinating to see what it takes to make art go from the other side of things. I think we as artists see the part that we're allowed to see and the part that's relevant to us in that given moment, but it's just fascinating to pull back the curtain and see what it takes to even make things that we may associate as like local or regional arts productions, just how much labor and money it takes to make anything happen. So yeah, hopefully that's not too long-winded of an answer about me.
Austin McFarland:No, I love it. There's stuff I didn't even know the band director thing that's something we share. Two years before we had to jump and run, right, yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, definitely learned a lot. I mean I have a tremendous amount of respect for individuals who teach in a classroom setting, especially with that age group. I teach private lessons to both middle school and high school students and certainly love that working with that age group in a one on one situation. But I quickly learned that that type of classroom instruction was not a great fit for me. But I learned a lot. I mean I had an incredible head director who just really showed me the importance of just being organized and being a thoughtful and concise communicator. Still working on that, I think I sometimes subscribe to the Charles Dickens model of more words are better. But yeah, people are not subscribing like they were to a serial novel and so I need to get to the point faster.
Austin McFarland:I'm not getting paid per word. I think that's something we all fall into. Is that academic trauma right? If I say it three times, then we got it. Five is guaranteed.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Right, what's the most confusing and obfuscating wording I can use here? Ah, now they'll know I'm an intellectual, exactly.
Austin McFarland:And still have no idea what you're talking about. No, so talk about the decision to write that first grant and take that jump, because that's always such an intimidating thing. I know I've for me. I've written three but only submitted one because I was too nervous to submit the other two. So I'd love to hear your perspective on like getting into that and like how that sort of evolved for you.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, I am deeply indebted to my primary applied teacher and mentor at that time, dr Stephen Page, who really encouraged me to look for funding, and I love sort of the nonchalant way that he even introduced the concept to me. I, while in my master's at Peabody, had a lot of opportunity to do performances in, I will say, non-traditional spaces but just outside of a traditional concert venue, and so Peabody had a wonderful collaboration with the Walters Art Museum that was just right across the street from them. They had a couple of initiatives where they would invite Peabody students to give performances in a large open space. They called that Peabody on the Court, I believe. And then they had something that was more broadly open to both local and regional artists, called Art Sound Now, and artists could submit proposals to, I think. Essentially just you were choosing a gallery or a space or a type of art that they had exhibited and you were building a musical product that was in dialogue or in response to that visual art. And so I did that. I was paid for that but didn't have to apply for a grant for that.
Dr. Kyle Jones:So when I moved to Austin I was in an artist's diploma which, if you're unfamiliar with that degree structure. It's really kind of a pick-your-own adventure in an awesome way. A lot of people view it as a practice degree, and certainly it can be a practice degree, but I think it also offers you so much freedom and agency to pursue projects that fall outside of the four walls of academia, and so I was looking to do that. I have always been interested in the intersection of visual and acoustic art, and so I set up a meeting with the Blanton Museum of Art beautiful contemporary art museum on the grounds of UT Austin and came up with this collaboration, and so I was talking to Dr Page about it and he said, great, you should apply for a grant, and it was so nonchalant, like, yes, obviously I should probably do that, but at the same time, I agree with you, austin, it was incredibly intimidating, and there's just something I think that's uniquely challenging about writing, that that feels, I guess, going back to the joke we were making earlier it's so against, I think, how we're taught to write, especially in higher education, right, we're taught often to write in a way that is heavily steeped in technical language, right, to show that we have this deep mastery and understanding of the content, and then, when you're writing a grant, there's a chance that those panelists whoever's reviewing it don't have that technical knowledge, and so it was really challenging.
Dr. Kyle Jones:But Dr Page was an incredible editor. If you all have any professional documents that you need looked at, you know, obviously ask him first, and I'm sure that there's a lot of people who are great editors. I'm thankful that I have those people where I can send a message and say, hey, can you please look at this? And they're always quick to respond. But I really just needed someone to say, yeah, you should just do this. And I don't know. I think I'm just sort of the person that's rather tenacious and I'll email and I'll send it out there and I'm like, well, the worst they could tell me is no, I mean, they can't slap me to, just to be honest. And so it really just took a push. It took a push and then having a project that I thought was compelling enough to receive funding.
Austin McFarland:Yeah, no, I think there's a lot there to unpack. Yeah, that mentor push is so important, yet also that inner imposter syndrome battle and trying to figure out how to navigate that yeah, it's just so important.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, I agree, and you know not to cut you off, I apologize. No, I think oftentimes what I see, you know, always our mentors have our best interest at heart. I mean, hopefully, that's why we're studying with them. And well, I guess I shouldn't say always, but I mean, if we've attached the label of mentor to them, I think that we understand them to have that kind of relationship. Where they are, they're advocating for us and they're giving us the best feedback that they can.
Dr. Kyle Jones:That, I would put the caveat caveat on is tailored to us right.
Dr. Kyle Jones:It's not sort of taking this broad silver bullet approach of you know, I want you to be successful so I'm going to superimpose the strategy that worked for me on to you.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Well, that's, that's not really mentorship at, I have to say, because I think mentorship requires that understanding of what are your artistic and professional goals, who are you as a person?
Dr. Kyle Jones:And then how can I draw upon that experience to then help you find the resources or the connections or the opportunities that you need to then fulfill that vision, whether it be professionally or artistically?
Dr. Kyle Jones:And I think that the longer you spend in an academic situation, the more that your values can come to be strictly aligned with that, and so I'm thankful that kind of the people who I've had in my orbit, who have taken an interest in me and who have given me that mentorship, all have projects that aren't exclusively in one space, that they may like choose to spend the bulk of their time in one avenue, like academic saxophone making or you know something else, like being a concert touring artist, whatever. But they have also done everything else. They're curious about those other things and even though they may not have that experience right, they also have that self awareness to acknowledge their blind spots and say I see you're interested in that. I may not be the best help, but let me connect you to these three people who I know who would, who could provide you with that kind of mentorship.
Austin McFarland:Exactly Yep, and that's, I think, an intersection where we, as musicians, don't spend enough time. We talk about networking and we spend all this. I'm saying we need to do it, but I don't know that we're actually training our students quite well enough to do it yet.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Oh, absolutely not. And I think, well, a obviously it's really easy for me to sit here and be like, yeah, we're not doing that. Well, I mean, this sort of goes back to that Brene Brown thing right about, like you know, being in the arena, like not taking the criticism of the person who's not in the arena. As an educator, you know, I feel like I have a little bit of skin in the game, so to speak. I feel like I can remark and say you know, as someone who was recently, who's gone through the higher ed trajectory with the goal of seeking a full time, tenured position or maybe just full time, maybe not tenured because I think tenure is sort of this tumultuous thing that is receding in a very real way from the reality for a lot of us who are graduating and seeking employment in higher education. Right, that's a reality. At the same time, I think that, yeah, I don't know, it's just, it's so complicated because there's so many skills that I think go into it right, like being able to communicate effectively in a written format, that we can express the value of what we're doing to people who don't have the same background as us. And music school is awesome because you get to be surrounded by people all the time who are so interested in what you in, the same thing that you're interested in, right, and there's all these vantage points that various people have. You're, all you know, huddled together striving to accomplish this one thing or seeking this certain level of engagement with this activity, like higher ed or with, like graduate school. Like y'all are serious, you're bought in, and that's infectious and that's exciting.
Dr. Kyle Jones:But I think it's easy for us to get into this space of over specialization.
Dr. Kyle Jones:We lose.
Dr. Kyle Jones:We lose what makes the arts valuable, or what makes any field valuable, and that's when it starts to communicate with these other fields. And there's this intersectionality, there's this co-operative kind of exchange, free exchange of ideas between disciplines, and so I think the other part of that is being able to communicate with people in a way that's not alienating but that is welcoming, that's inviting them in, and I think that for the longest time our institutions and our art form have been alienating, right? So how do we build the skills, both in written and verbal communication, to welcome back those individuals who look at what we do as like oh, that's not for me, you know, that's not for people who look like me, that's not people from my socioeconomic background, yeah, and I think, speaking of networking too, you know, like so many, like that word is so gross in a lot of ways, and I'd be curious kind of if you find that people in your experience have that same kind of you know, they recoil, they're like networking, oh, you know, I don't know if that's what you've experienced as well.
Austin McFarland:No, I think so. I think we see that. We see that pop up in the conference list here's a whole hour long lecture on networking, or it pops up as a topic on the syllabus for a class or something. We immediately just go oh no, no, I don't want to talk about it. But then we? But at the same time we see stuff about building community and or connecting with people, and we think about those phrases as being these like warm, welcoming ideas, but they are networking, like networking is the nasty term. And I think, if we can flip our mindset to, I'm not building a network, I'm building a community, people that people that support me, that want to help me communicate my art or want to engage in my art in some way, that we end up pulling those people, getting that cross, pulling someone who's maybe not the same socioeconomic status or that's not the kind of music they listen to or whatever, and dragging them along for on a journey that you know what are they going to lose by following us or engaging in our art?
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, and I think they're so, because if we just talk about our background to saxophonist for just a second, I think we can look around and there's so much excitement with where the field is going, especially when I look at, you know, generations younger than me and it's so weird to talk about that because I'm also, you know, in addition to coming to terms with the fact that I now have this honorific in front of my name, I'm also acknowledging that I'm turning 32 next month and I think I perpetually see myself as being a 20 something year old and that's just not real anymore. But I think we can go on. You know, especially like short form social media, we can see that content and younger saxophonists are playing things that you know people were, those were the challenge pieces or those were the things used to audition a graduate school, and young saxophonists are engaging with that repertoire at earlier and earlier junctions, and so we see this pedagogy kind of growing and taking off at an exponential rate, which is awesome. But I think what we also are not asking ourselves is what is missing, because, yes, we are achieving these things and it is remarkable and laudable and invaluable right in certain contexts, but to achieve that level at a younger age. There's the same amount of time in a day for everyone, and so if we feel like that is the quote level and you know that's your ticket to ride, then you're putting more time in to achieve that level that some that mean, that arbitrary idea of what the base level is.
Dr. Kyle Jones:And then what are you giving up? Well, potentially you're giving up again those times to build relationships with people, right? And the networking word what? Community is certainly a better word, and I know people would say well, you're just having an argument of semantics, right? Community versus networking one word sounds happier. Well, to me, community is about building relationships and like mutual aid, trust and care, networking.
Dr. Kyle Jones:I don't really feel that that's your primary objective, right? And so if you approach networking as relationship building, then I think it can be a really healthy and positive experience. But that means that you have to also acknowledge that your life can't happen in the confines of the practice room. And yes, there's some amazing stuff that happens there. But for me, the reason that I stay engaged in this field is because I dream, while I'm practicing by myself, of eventually putting that with someone else. Right, playing for myself will never be enough, and I hope that that is how a lot of younger people are looking at it too, because again, there is this push through that short form content to just practice these bars for a minute and just impress people and to achieve these higher levels. And then my question always like okay, great, now what? Who are you welcoming in? Who is going to be exposed to that achievement that's not been there before?
Austin McFarland:Yep, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I like what you said about community being that give or take. I do agree that give and take. I do agree with that that there is some of that. But I think there is some of that in networking too. So we have to be careful about what that line looks like or how we want to draw it. But at the same time, part of what makes our art so much fun is the vulnerability in it.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, yeah, I've had so many chamber music experiences where I think my enjoyment has been, has ranged in them, and when I go back and try to interrogate or, you know, determine what was the factor that made me enjoy X experience over Y experience, I feel like it goes exactly back to your point, austin, of trust. Do I trust the musicians that I am on stage making music with? If I do, I feel like it's infinitely more rewarding to perform than if I'm in a situation where I feel like we're all kind of just in it for ourselves and if I make a mistake, you know, no one's got my back right. I want to be in that situation where you know we can have a little trust fall right. Oh, I skipped it, I skipped a beat, it's OK. I trust the people I'm playing with. We all have each other.
Dr. Kyle Jones:I realize that you're leading this podcast, but I do want to ask you a question. Do you feel like the sort of reticence or like I don't know this, like concern about give and take, what has has been like, fueled through scarcity, like what has been your experience with scarcity? Because this is something I'm thinking a lot about as we start to see maybe what we thought were tried and true. Career opportunities and inevitabilities start to shift and maybe disappear, right Like the total number of those collegiate teaching jobs is shifting, or you know what they're wanting from their candidate. Their applicant pool is changing. I'm just kind of curious what your experience with scarcity has been.
Austin McFarland:No, I think I think there is a little bit of that. I think there's also a, at least here in this area, where I where I've experienced most of my professional career being a transplant in Northwest Arkansas is that it's not necessarily the people aren't available, it's that the people don't want to engage. There are a lot of people that I think could be doing the little pieces of what I'm doing at NWAC without me having to, without me having to carry it all, and I think the institution looks at it from that perspective, because they've they've even approached me and we can find somebody to do that if you want us to, which is so unusual in academia, yeah. But I think that I'm also looking at it from the standpoint of like, well, I have the skill set. It's not that it's not that many Like, there's not that much to do. In all honesty, there's no reason why I can't do it, especially since, right now, the people that are taking lessons are saxophone and clarinet players, which are that's what I do. Like, yeah, I can do that all day long, that's easy.
Austin McFarland:So, but I also I haven't found like, yes, scarcity. And like the financial side of things, yes, I have, we've all. We all go through those as artists where there's just times when you're like we're going to make it, but but it's going to be rough. You know that whole idea and but I also have discovered that, just like there are seasons of life, even within a year, that that's just the way things are.
Austin McFarland:Yeah, so I think if we're open to just following our passion and letting sort of into some extent, letting the music sort of lead where we're going to go, who are we going to play for next kind of mentality, yeah, then you, you discover you can piece together this non traditional, weird amalgamation of a career. Yeah, that I am totally fulfilled doing what I do. Some days I hate it, but that's kind of how I mean. What's the difference between what I'm doing as an adjunct for a school district and adjunct for a community college and running my own private studio and having my own business ventures on the side Right In addition to that, versus someone that's adjunct at three universities in the same town?
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and I love that you bring that up about this kind of multifaceted career and how I think I still think a lot of people associate that with this notion of, well, they didn't like, they just didn't make the cut right, like they're piecemealing something together because there's this sort of hierarchical organization of opportunities and positions and that's just. It's just so silly because, again, like I think that scarcity happens when we find ourselves in this position where we do think that there's this hierarchical structure of what positions and what opportunities are out there and we're just seeing, we're just trying to get to the next rung on the ladder, right. And I think that scarcity happens when we do over specialize. I mean, like yes, I obviously want to sit in a practice room and be able to play middle D in tune, right, like yes, that's admirable, and I'm not saying that playing middle D in tune is like over specialization and anyway, everyone should be able to play middle D in tune. That being said, I think that when you kind of brand yourself and when you, when you only spend your time doing one particular thing, I'm going to just broadly call that thing classical saxophone playing or you know what? Art music, saxophone art music, for lack of a better term right, sort of ambiguous. But I think when you that is all that you do, it is easy to fall into a scarcity mindset because you have backed yourself into that corner, you have specialized yourself or over specialized yourself into a corner.
Dr. Kyle Jones:And maybe it's me right, austin, like I am sort of all over the place. I'm talking in tangents like this this feels like a really good exercise for me and having a through line, a cohesive line of thought that's not jumping all over the place, but that's kind of how I am. And you know, I get up and I answer emails and then I'm, ooh, I'm doing this and I'm going to break in reads and I'm going to warm up and then I'm going to go do this and now I'm going to go have a social activity and now I'm going to do social media. Like I just want to do a bunch of stuff because the burnout that is very real in our field, right, and in music in general, that to me I've been able to stave that off what I would say really successfully.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Just my own personal assessment of where I am at 32, you know, finishing a terminal degree, hustling between a couple of different jobs of various skills. That that's very skills of me and I'm like dang, this is awesome, like I and if any future employer is listening to this, of course I would love a full time job where most of my time is spent there. So please do not take this as, oh, you know, kyle. Kyle does a one big job. He wants to do nine small jobs. Not necessarily, but I do hope that my career always has these multiple branches from from like kind of the main, the main trunk, the main stem, which is the same thing that I imagine you that initially drew you to this field and then, like this branching is like oh, okay. Well, now I'm seeing how music and my own personal affinity for X can kind of cohabitat together. And then, oh, look, now there's all these other opportunities, because I don't see myself as only the saxophonist, exactly.
Austin McFarland:No, I think, and I where I totally agree with you, where I think our system is, is our stories differ and where? Where my understanding came from, it is the fact that I am a doubler and have been a doubler for so long. So I started on saxophone as a sixth grader. By my freshman year, I was playing bassoon by the by the time I was done. By the time I was done with high school, I had taken on trumpet, french horn, clarinet, like I was playing everything, which is why the music education path was where everybody was just like oh well, that's where he's going like dark, we check, we filled in that box we know where he's going to be for the rest of his life.
Austin McFarland:Like I'm sure that it's just going to be printed in all of the reunion folders from my high school that that's what I still do, because that's just what they assumed I was going to do. But the what I had to discover when and luckily for me I went to an undergraduate institution that realized classical saxophone is an academic thing, and the saxophone professor loved her to death. She's an amazing woman, had fantastic performance careers as a jazz saxophoneist. All of us everybody in her saxophone studio played clarinet, played flute. We sat in concert band in a different section and played saxophone and jazz, because she knew we had to be marketable.
Austin McFarland:That was one of the ways that you could do. It was taking on something else. The clarinet professor was absolutely well, like, okay, you've got to be a classical clarinetist too, so let's get it to where it needs to be. And so I had to learn how to get better on saxophone or practicing clarinet and vice versa. And learning so it becomes this game you have to play with yourself of how do I accomplish the stuff I need to accomplish while also doing the things that are going to fulfill me and drive me forward? Yeah, because I remember even being so. My teaching career was in the middle of Southwestern Kansas 250 people in the entire school district. Yeah, I was teaching K-12, everything and still driving an hour, hour and a half to sing with the symphony chorus or play a musical or whatever. I had to do because I needed that connection.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah.
Austin McFarland:And so this career, settling in this career, was the I need to be able to play and how can I support myself while still being able to pursue saxophone duo stuff or cynical duo, or Michael and I are working on oboe or English horned bass clarinet duo stuff right now and so finding whatever we can and it's just following what's available. And I think the more connected we are to not only the larger saxophone community for an arbitrary community but also as local as we can get, that also plays a part in it. I'd love to hear your experience of moving to Kansas City and getting as connected as you could in that art scene and sort of how that developed.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, sure yeah, absolutely. How did that?
Austin McFarland:go. I'd love to compare stories.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Well, first, there's like so much about your backstory that I'm also learning right now, which is awesome. I okay side note before I answer that question did you have a senior superlative? Like did you get the class? Cause you mentioned like going back for your I just I got most talented and it was. I just I feel like that's just such a cop out, like I don't, I don't know. I also I don't think I'm ever gonna go to a high school reunion Like I'm thankful that I did not peak in high school. At least I don't think I did, reflecting back if I peaked, like I don't know what this is, but anyway, okay, I was just curious, cause I feel like I don't know. I also, as a member of the LGBTQIA plus community, I feel like I have a shared experience with with several members of my community where that that, that your book, you know you were always looking for the teacher to write. You were a joy to having class. So, sorry, sorry if this is a deviation into a very unprofessional sphere, but Totally fine.
Austin McFarland:That's what this is for, right.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Okay, let me actually circle back and get to your question instead of just on this tangent here. So when I moved to Kansas City in the fall of 2020, as you can probably imagine, there was a significant world upending event, right, and I moved here from Austin. I know, yeah, it's a blip on the radar, but I had moved from Austin and, as I mentioned, you know, when I first got there, I built that relationship with the Blanton and I got that grant and after that, I mean, that was sort of like a catalyst for things and plus, I had, like I said, mentors that were just pushing me out the door constantly. They're like you're in this artist diploma, you have this time, use it. And so I feel like I did and it was really nice. And so I moved to Kansas City and, for purely external reasons, I couldn't engage in those activities and you know, when I moved here, I was like, oh, this isn't a real city.
Dr. Kyle Jones:You know, because I had come from Austin, I was like oh you know, and at that point I knew my rent route, the Trader Joe's that I was shopping at, and I was thankful to live a seven minute walk from campus. And so, honestly, austin for the first year that I lived here. That was my understanding of Kansas City and during that time I had had so many people say, oh you know, kansas City is sort of like in a Renaissance period right now where they're deeply invested in the arts and building that kind of infrastructure. And so it really took me, I think, just making a concerted effort to go out to concerts to start to kind of see the topography of the art scene here, to see who was making art, what spaces were making art and what kind of art they typically welcomed. We're really thankful and lucky in Kansas City to have a fantastic new music ensemble New Year which is going into their 31st season, if you can believe that. I mean that's for a contemporary chamber ensemble. It's so impressive and I've gone to their concerts as an attendee, I've played with them as a performer and now I'm lucky to also be a board member. But seeing their work and then kind of building off of that experience in Austin with grants, first thing I did when I moved here was, you know, search artist grants in the area and several of those arts organizations popped up. So it was a combination of going out and doing you know field work, if you will, going to events and seeing who's making art and connecting with those artists, seeing those spaces. In addition to New Year, we have an incredible Baroque group that's committed entirely to Baroque music Kansas City Baroque. I've served as a project coordinator for them. We also have Charlotte Street Foundation, an immense community space. They have a studio residency program, they give out grants, arts KC, same thing just a tremendous boon to the arts community. So we're really lucky to have these organizations in place.
Dr. Kyle Jones:But also and I think this differs from places I've lived before and maybe we won't count home because it's just different in East Tennessee, but we'll talk specifically about the two major urban areas. I've lived in Baltimore and Austin. When I lived in those spaces I really felt like there was no room Again, that scarcity mindset, right where there's the same audiences going to these three ensembles, concerts. If somebody new comes into the fold, well, they're kind of pillaging our audience, right Like it's an attack on us, and there's just a lot of I don't mean to say this in a pejorative sense, but there's a lot of noise, like if you go out there and you step into the scene and you're trying to do something, how do you cut through that? How do you establish what you're doing is different?
Dr. Kyle Jones:And here in Kansas City I've really felt like there's not that saturation to that point. There is a lot happening and I don't mean for that statement to make it sound like there's not a lot happening here. There is a tremendous amount of diverse art being made, but I also feel like there's still space. There's space in the sense that there are venues that are curious in supporting new acts, people they've not heard of before. But also there's space in the sense that I think there is that capital C community where people want to collaborate, they want to do these interesting interdisciplinary projects and they are welcoming new voices into the fold in a way that I think has felt different than other places I've lived.
Austin McFarland:That is interesting because I've had a little bit of a reverse experience, coming from South Central Kansas that's basically dead in cows to moving here in Northwest Arkansas where, yes, there's more happening, but it's still now that I've lived here for five years. Still not enough is happening. I think there's so much room for growth in this area that we're all overwhelmed. We all want to see the growth happen, but we're all stepping on each other's toes, trying to do everything all at one time that I think has been an interesting thing to navigate as I've gotten more involved.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, and I think that's so crucial. It seems like there needs to be some sort of larger umbrella that these groups, these people because it's like you said, it's not a lack of people wanting to do things how do we come together and do it in an organized way that's sustainable and we can build some infrastructure? I felt that a little bit in Austin and you're recently something that has been just really exciting. Just as a sidebar to Traktis, which is a new music ensemble, one of a couple that has been in Austin for some time, they recently had this event called here Be Monsters. It was several hours long and it was basically do you do new music in Austin? Well, we're going to have a marathon style concert and we're going to showcase everybody.
Dr. Kyle Jones:It was so special, not only because, as an audience member, you got to go and you paid a ticket and you got to see these 15, 20 minute acts just all afternoon long. I mean, you got to see the entire snapshot of what was going on, but it got people talking to each other in a really meaningful way where, even though I'm not really a part of that community anymore, I do kind of look for excuses to get back to Austin because I love food. So anyway, there's that I could probably found her on tacos and chips if I wasn't careful.
Austin McFarland:But we got stuck in the airport there, not this last summer but the summer before, and I will say there are worse places to be stuck overnight than Austin.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Oh yes. So even though I'm sort of like an outside observer now, it still is really exciting because I think any space that you care about, you build a relationship with, you want to see them do well, and so seeing that kind of momentum, I'm like, yes, good, Just because I'm not there and not reaping the benefit doesn't mean I can't be excited for you.
Austin McFarland:Exactly. No, I think you're hitting on. Another kind of important topic for us as artists is accessibility and figuring out ways that we can increase what is perceived by the general public as overly academic and present it in a way that, no, it's not actually overly academic, it's whatever you want it to be, just engage with it and figuring out how to sort of create that as artists. What are some things that you've noticed in your career thus far that have been like opportunities, that you've discovered accessibility or created accessibility for a new audience or in an attempt to find a new audience.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, well, I think it goes back to trying to be creative and doing my homework as an artist to see who is doing something that is unique that I find interesting, that has not yet, at least to what I perceive. And of course, we all have our blind spots and we all have our kind of limited field division from where we are, from our vantage point. But trying to find artists, so other musicians, composers, non-musicians who are doing something really interesting, where I look at the communities that I'm working and living inside of and say I don't see that I can see how they would benefit from that. And I would love to bring that into the fold because I know that, even though my, even though that one time event right, like so, let's say, I'm doing a collaboration to commission a new work right, we never know what kind of life a work is going to have but I still think there's something admirable and worthwhile of introducing that to a community and having that hope that a community will rally behind that. And so I think part of accessibility is continuing to do your research as an artist and bring people into your communities and into spaces that historically have not had a place there.
Dr. Kyle Jones:I think, for me, part of accessibility is programming. So, realizing that it is 2023 and there is no excuse for you not to have diversity and representation in every facet of what you do, and for that to come from a place of honesty and integrity and to know that you are putting people on a program because you find there are to be valuable and you are interested in their artistic voice, but then also you are hoping to I mean, like I'll just talk about my approach I am trying to hopefully curate programs and work with collaborators on projects that accurately represent the kind of community that I want to be working and living in. And I think that we have seen historically, especially from kind of larger institutions and arts organizations, we have seen programming that does not reflect, you know, and is not an accurate representation really in any way of the kind of people who are making art in the 21st century. And so I think, if we want to bring people into the fold and avoid the danger that has sort of sat over our field for a long time, that danger of alienation, the first part of it is presenting art that accurately represents communities that have not been a part of that conversation. And I think the other thing that happens when you do that that's really beautiful and special is that you also start bringing in other lived experiences and other narratives that may not resonate incredibly strongly with you, based on your own, you know, lived experience and your own biases. But there's something really special about curating a program that offers as many avenues or as many windows into the art form as possible, and I sort of think that the art form itself isn't inherently alienating. I think our programming practices are alienating. I think the way we communicate with people about what we do is alienating, and I think that the venues that we often present our art in can be alienating because they come with all this baggage, right we?
Dr. Kyle Jones:You go to a symphony hall and I mean I have played in large halls before. I am a working music professional and I would say most of the music I play, or a portion of the music I play, is, you know, big C, classical music, whatever that means. But I still find myself in those spaces feeling a little like this is not where I belong, right? Yeah, absolutely. Especially from my sort of economic background, which is middle to kind of lower middle class, I still walk into Hellsburg Hall in Kansas City and think, wow, like do I mean? I don't know if I really deserve to be here, I don't know if this space is for me, and that's absurd because I literally am working in this field, and it may be illogical, right, but that's how so many of these biases and so much of this cultural baggage is. It's not based in logic, but it still has a tangible effect on people, and so I think for me, that's. Those are concerns I have.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Is, you know, what is my venue alienating Like? Is my venue a place that people can come? That makes this accessible? Is my venue close to multiple modes of transportation? Is there a public transportation option available for people? Because that can be really limiting. For example, I'm working with a composer to put on a program in Union Station in Kansas City, in the planetarium, and one of the things that we were concerned with was finding a space that was central, that was not associated with, you know, kind of as a concert venue, capitalizing on the fact that there is a bus route right outside of the venue that stops there. There's a bus stop literally right outside the front door. There is a light rail that stops right outside of the front door. Of course there's train. I don't think people are going to be taking the Amtrak into Union Station for our concert, but, goodness, I would never stop them if they're going to.
Dr. Kyle Jones:you know, take the train. How elegant that sounds. And of course I mean like you could take your personal vehicle. Also, is the space ADA compliant If there is a significant spoken element to your programming? Are you reaching out to a sign language interpreter and are you providing ESL? Are you providing sorry sign language interpretation for the deaf and hard of hearing community? I think there's all these things that it's so easy to forget about, whether it be because of my own, like racial bias, bias based on, like gender ableism, right. And so I think the more that you communicate with artists where that is that lived experience, hopefully the better you get at seeing and recognizing those own, your own blind spots, in an effort to increase accessibility to what you do. But I firmly believe that the form, the art form itself, is not alienating, but so much of how we present it.
Austin McFarland:Yes, yeah, it's in the perception right, both in how we execute it and just culturally. Yeah, I think we also. We also have to realize that there's a cultural aspect that we have to sort of battle against.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, I mean, I think our you know we have, like every instrument, every genre is going to have its own unique problems. I think that there are concerns about accessibility and equity that are large and encompass a lot of things, something that we all broadly have to deal with. But I mean, look at, look at our instrument. I mean we are still dealing on a constant basis with issues of gender equity in our field, in higher education, just around who is being represented by? By, like marketing promotions from our major instrument manufacturers and the companies that produce accessories for our instrument, just how we're teaching the instrument, what, what people from a diverse gender background see, you know, like the over sexualization of the saxophone, from like skewed towards like a male sphere or a male perspective, like those are unique problems for us and, like I said, I think every instrument, every genre has their own unique issues.
Dr. Kyle Jones:But I think the first part is just acknowledging that it is a problem. And if you never interact with individuals who can, who can share that that's been their experience, that they felt alienated, yeah, like your art form is going to be alienating, like you don't know what you don't know, and until you start talking to other people, you're not just going to magically have an epiphany like oh my gosh, I've been only programming Six men for eight years, and like how did I not realize this was a problem? Well, how many gender diverse people have you talked to or have you been in the practice room eight hours a day? You know, practicing the doll? I don't know. I like the doll, I practice the doll, sure, but like also, go talk to other people and people who have a different experience than you do.
Austin McFarland:Yes, yes, yes, yes, no, it's not Now. I find that my my program is the opposite. I'm looking at my library going. I don't have enough diversity. How can I create more?
Dr. Kyle Jones:Well, you know, I think part of it is utilizing the resources that are available to you. I was really lucky that I was in school with now Dr Sarah Hedrick. She was the doctoral student line. I was an 80 student at the University of Texas at Austin and I've just had like peers who have noticed these concerns and who have sought to create resources that address issues of representation. One of the things that Dr Hedrick did while a student was start to build a really beautiful resource for gender diverse composers, and that has been something that I've leaned into as a teacher, like trying to find works for the various members of the saxophone family that are gender diverse.
Dr. Kyle Jones:I think the other part of it, too, is just like doing research, like there's a certain amount of our job. I think that has to exist. Where we are, we have to keep learning, I guess is the best way to put it. Like we have to realize that there's a lot of work that we have to do. I guess is the best way to put it. Like we have to realize that this is a lifelong endeavor and that the moment we stop learning, the moment we stop being curious, the moment we stop researching and having conversations with people is the moment that we stagnate and we likely start doing harm to others.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Austin, I don't know if you're familiar with the wonderful curator and saxophonist, olivia Short, but they were a guest on my podcast back in 2020 and I've just been a huge fan of what they do incredible improviser and just activist. And one of the things they said with me they said in our conversation on the podcast that stuck with me is that you, when you act in the betterment of a group of people, or when you act on someone else's behalf in a way that you think is for their betterment, without checking with them first, you're likely to do harm, and you potentially could do more harm than even if you didn't try to do that positive thing to help people. And so I think the other aspect of that is having conversations and saying what do you need? How can I be a better ally, how can I be a better supporter for you and your community and maybe you don't even go so far as to say your community, right, because we can't expect people to be like the sole arbiters of the community and spokespeople for that but I think the most important conversation is how could I be a better ally or support to you.
Dr. Kyle Jones:If we look at the makeup of studios, saxophone studios across the country, just looking at the discrepancy between men and women playing the saxophone, or, like men and gender diverse individuals, probably speaking, who play the saxophone, it's still a cavernous gulf and so acknowledging that that's really alienating, and just having that conversation with them and saying, hey, how can I support you, how can I, through my artistic work or through my professional endeavors, support you through this journey, whether it be while you're peers in school or, why you're not, when you go out eventually into the quote real world? I hate that term.
Austin McFarland:Right, I'm still trying to find it.
Dr. Kyle Jones:I know exactly. I'm apparently in some sort of perpetual role playing game, according to my parents, where I'm not actually in. You know well, the whole time I was in graduate school. Oh well, you're still in school, so you're not actually in the real world. I don't know. This feels pretty real to me. If this is a simulation, maybe we should you know, maybe we should change some of the settings.
Austin McFarland:I am on hard mode.
Dr. Kyle Jones:I'm on hard mode right now and I know, no, it's like I was not prepared for the entry. That's exactly right, it's. You know it's an RPG. I'm in it for the story. Let's do easy mode. I just I'm here for the ride, I just want the narrative. Thanks.
Austin McFarland:Yes, thank you. No, I think. Wow, that's yeah a lot to unpack. Well, I guess let's go ahead and wrap up, because there's no like no reason why I couldn't just have you back later to continue the conversation. Sure, when and how can people connect with you if they want to get to know you more after interacting with this, this episode?
Dr. Kyle Jones:Yeah, so I'm pretty active on social media. I do not track my screen time and I'm sort of alarmed to even turn that setting on Yikes, but I'm on social media quite a bit. So if you'd like to stay in touch, you're interested in what I'm doing or just interested in connecting, because obviously I'd love to see what more of anyone else is doing you can find me on Instagram, kyle Jones. I'm there. I think it might be Kyle Blake Jones. I've included my middle name and a lot of things just to distinguish myself. It's a very common name and so a lot of times if you search Kyle Blake Jones, you're more likely to find me. But you can find me on Instagram, kyle Blake Jones. Same thing with Facebook Kyle Blake Jones. Make sure you throw that middle name in.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Youtube account is kind of growing. It's mostly just performances. It's sort of been a late addition. So you can certainly find some recordings on YouTube and I promise I'm going to get my website back up. Just a lot of overhaul this summer. It just felt very not who I was anymore and now that I'm teaching I've sort of put it on the back burner. So eventually you'll be able to find me from my website as well, but for now, instagram and Facebook are probably your best bet.
Austin McFarland:Well, there you go. That's where you should connect with him, and, before we wrap up, I just want to thank you for coming on. It's been a great conversation and I've enjoyed every minute of it.
Dr. Kyle Jones:Hey, thanks, it's been an absolute treat. Yeah, I'm excited to listen to the podcast later as well.
Austin McFarland:Thank you for being part of the community stage. It wouldn't be a community without listeners like you. Stay tuned for our upcoming episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like, subscribe and share our podcast with your friends, family and fellow music enthusiasts. Until next time, keep dreaming, keep creating and keep thriving musicpreneurs. Goodbye for now.