The Musicpreneur Space
How to People with Dr. Nathan Mertens
Embark on a transformative journey with Dr. Nathan Mertens, our esteemed guest and Assistant Professor of Saxophone at the University of Colorado, Boulder, as he unveils the intersection of music education and entrepreneurship.
Outro
Embark on a transformative journey with Dr. Nathan Mertens, our esteemed guest and Assistant Professor of Saxophone at the University of Colorado, Boulder, as he unveils the intersection of music education and entrepreneurship.
Outro
All right, welcome. I am here with Dr Nathan Mertens. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and talk about who you are and what you do and why you do it?
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Great. Well, first, thanks for having me, Austin, it's great to be here. So my name is Nathan Mertens I use he him pronouns and I'm currently assistant professor of saxophone at the University of Colorado, Boulder. It's a position I have now finished two weeks, so, yeah, it's been a great two weeks here. So prior to my appointment here, I taught at the University of Arkansas, Baylor University and Hastings College, and in all of those spaces I've taught music of some sort. So it's been theory, it's been music history, it's been woodwinds, it's been saxophone, and at Baylor I was fortunate enough to actually teach entrepreneurship for them.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:And as, as I continue on now, I'm only teaching saxophone, I think, even though my job title does not include entrepreneurship at all, it's essentially what I'm doing, and I think that's what a lot of applied faculty are doing across America is in that like the job market is scarce, and I think the job market is scarce. That mentality is sort of mostly around the traditional careers, right. If you think about, like academic teaching or you think about orchestral performing, that's where we think about it being scarce. But I think there's a lot of opportunities in other places that we don't necessarily promote in higher education, and so it's sort of my job to help students if they want to be the best orchestra musician, great, we can 100% go along that route but also remain flexible and build skills along the way that allow them to have other sort of careers until that dream sort of manifests. I mean, like, just to be 100% transparent, I am in my first tenure track position with job security, and I am 34 years old.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:This has been a dream of mine to have a position like this since I was 18. So we do the math right. That is 16 years of essentially working towards this thing, and so I've had 16 years of having to provide income for myself, having to pay my own bills, and you know I've got rent. I've got a single dad raising a dog. So you know, I've got all of those things that I have to pay for and and projects that I want to do and I have to find other ways to fund them than just, you know, like, sitting and hoping that an academic job is going to come open. So long way to answer your question of who I am and what I do. But short answer I teach the saxophone. Long answer I'm trying to create musicians who, like, have longevity in this field.
Austin McFarland:I love that that's. That's exactly where you went, because I think that is definitely something that's missing. Even not just you know you were talking about your, your career as an educator, but even like my career as a student leading up to this, like there was nobody talking about the skill set that I needed or how to develop it. So what are some things that you do with your studio to, or your students to help them sort of figure that out for themselves? How do you navigate that entrepreneurial path?
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Well, I think, like the first thing and we talk about this a lot, and I was just having conversation with colleagues yesterday that, like the thing that you've got to know how to do first is you have to know how to people which I know that seems like a wild statement to make, but you have to know how to be around other people and be a good hang. Yes, you have to be a great musician, but you also need to know how to like have a conversation with individuals, and I take that into sort of like. The next level is that, like we also know how to need to know how to communicate from the stage, and that's how we essentially build community is we. We build community through these conversations. Making the great music is nice, but also being able to engage engage your community during, before, after a concert is really important. So one of the skills that I do sort of. Just we've got a competition coming up for graduate students and they're only allowed to play a 15 minute program. So I'm having all my graduate students only prepare 13 minutes of music and then they're going to prepare a minute and a half of speaking because I want them to get in the habit, even though the competition doesn't ask for it. I want to get them in the habit of. I'm preparing this program. This is what the program means to me. Please listen for X, y and Z more than like. Beethoven was the most prolific composer of the.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:You know like that, that that sort of communication is isolating in a way, because the non musicians feel like, well, I don't know anything, and so it pulls them out of it. So how to communicate on a people level and not necessarily as a, like, a high level musician? I think we can operate in that way but also just communicating with the general public, something I say often to my students and my mother doesn't know this, but my mother, her name is Tammy and she works in accounting, and so it's oftentimes in lessons. Students will have this great idea and I'll say, wonderful, now how does that relate to Tammy and accounting? And what I'm trying to get at is like how, how does this relate to the general public? Like, how would they engage with the material that you're creating? And it's quite possible that the material is not at all meant for them. However, I think we need to start thinking more about Tammy from accounting, and how can she engage with the saxophone repertoire or how can she engage with the concerts that we're curating for the community?
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Even Tammy from accounting, she has children. And who? Who's going to teach your children? And how do you appeal to Tammy? Because, at the end of the day, tammy's children aren't necessarily making the decision about the teaching. It is going to be Tammy from accounting. So, in sort of a silly way, I'm trying to get my students to always think about how does this, how does this affect the general public? Because I think, as you know and probably many of your listeners know, that, like academia and the music, world can often become so siloed off that we lose sort of our perspective of the larger world.
Austin McFarland:Absolutely Siloed, and then it also from the outside world, them looking in see it as this, like high class, like that's where that nose in the air for classical music comes from. And it's not that I think there's some. There's definitely something accessible for everyone.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Yeah and it's like this exclusive club, like you have to go to these fancy schools and you have to go to. You have to like know the right people and have the right instruments, and it's like you have to be a decent player and you have to be a good person, like that's. That's essentially what I'm training all my students to do, like even if they decide that music is not for them. I hope that they become lifelong lovers of music and they're you're coming to concerts or contributing. Maybe they're even still playing.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:That would be great, but it's not my job to sort of create elitism in what we do, and so I think that's where Tammy from accounting is always trying to get like how does this relate? And most, I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't know one else in my family is musical. So my whole life I've been building this skill that I didn't even know, which was how to talk to my family, which are like a lot of people are like middle of nowhere, nebraska, like never been to a symphony concert. They've that. That's just not their world and that's fine. But how do I relate what I'm doing to them and how do I bring them into my world and show them that this is important and special and that it's valuable to their lives.
Austin McFarland:Yeah, no, and I think that like for me, that that same. You know, I am totally with you 100% of the only musician in the family. Nobody understands where the talent came from, and I remember finishing concerts and recitals and stuff as I was progressing, and my grandparents saying things like when are you going to play something that I know, or you know things like that, and but it from that actually has spawned projects. So I've been able to commission pieces and dedication to them and things like that. That are things that they know, that let me sort of get my creativity out. So how can we as a community foster that sort of growth while also competing for the same jobs? Because I feel like there is this sort of we've got to compete against each other, but that's not necessarily the case. So how do we come back that?
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I think it goes back to I'm coming back to people, sorry to be a one trick pony, but like I also want to remove, like so much of what we talk and the verbiage of how we talk about jobs. It's like I won this job and it's like it's like I need to beat everyone else, I have to compete against everyone else, and it's like like, yes, yes, there is a level of competition to get the jobs. You are in fact, going up against other people who also want that job, but at the end of the day, all of that is like out of your control and it's essentially there's a committee, there's a person on the other end. The opportunities are often being chosen by people that like it's, it's completely out of your control. And so I've been up for a lot of jobs and I've not won a lot of jobs. I've applied for a lot of jobs, not even up for them, and I'm happy for the individuals that win them, and I think more that we can be a community of all. Boats rise with the tide. That I mean.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:That's sort of a phrase that my mentor, stephen Page at the University of Texas uses quite a bit is that like, while it's you know it's like someone else wins a job or they get this opportunity that you want. It doesn't mean that the opportunity is then taken away from you. It just means that you have another, you have another, you have another avenue to essentially pursue something else Like and it's never a no, it's just not yet. That's the way I sort of have gone through sort of my career of 16 years of looking for this job. So I think cultivating that mindset of like we're all in this together, I think is really really great, because at the end of the day, going back to people, people are the ones hiring you and if you're, we can see what sort of skills that you have.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Right, you need to be able to have all of that clear, clear communication, like we talked about before. All of that needs to be clear. But we want to work with good people and so if you, if you are a good person in all realms, people will notice that, and then you want, like when I'm hiring people or I'm, I have opportunities. I'm wanting to reach out to people that I know and people that I know are good people, like I'm at this conversation, right, I'm not thinking like what is Austin's skill set at X instrument. I'm just like Austin is a good person and I want to engage in this sort of conversation and I think I'm not selling like, yes, you have to play in tune and you've got to have good rhythm, and all of that. I'm not saying that that doesn't matter. I'm saying that it matters just as much as like being a good person. I know I keep talking about this, but I think it's really at the crux of what we're doing.
Austin McFarland:We've established we have to develop those communication skills and understanding of what needs to happen. But how do we create direction for ourselves once we leave that academic setting? But because once we're in school, everything's sort of controlled You're going to study these pieces, you're going to do play in these ensembles, all of that. But when that goes away, how do we create that structure for ourselves and sort of guide our path?
Dr. Nathan Mertens:And I think that's where a lot of people will get lost is that, like we're being constantly told what to do. I won't speak on behalf of all the other studios, so in my studio I give my students a lot of agency and like repertoire that they're picking, and I'm just sort of a guide, right, a mentor, on that path. I'm not necessarily picking all of the repertoire, I'm encouraging certain pieces, but allowing them to create that agency on their own so that way when they get out they have a little bit more of that. But if someone doesn't, I think it goes back to. I think you and I talked about this at our NASA proposal is that you need to figure out what your mission is Like. What do you actually want to be doing? We oftentimes get stuck in like I want to have X job.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:A lot of people in academia, saxophone world they're like I want a saxophone professor job, cool, great, there are like five in America that were open last year, so like. But but I think, doing some self evaluation, whether like on your own, journaling, therapy, whatever, whatever you decide to do, and figure out why you want to do the thing. What is it about teaching that appeals to you, right. Is it that, like for me, it's. I get to guide these young people when they're sort of at this pivotal moment where you talk about structure, high school is even more so. These are all the things that you get to do in college. You have so much more agency to choose and to like decide who you're going to be as a person, as an artist, and that's exciting that I get to sort of be on that journey with the students. They're learning, I'm learning, we're all growing together. But that was something that was a realization of of me like, okay, these, I love that growth aspect. Well then I was like, okay, great, what skills do I need in order to help my students grow? And I was like, okay, well, I have to be a great teacher. So I started taking more like teaching classes. I started reading more books about teaching. I like. Then it was like oh well, the market is getting quite competitive, so what other skills do I need to be offering students? So I enrolled in the global leaders Institute to learn more about entrepreneurship and program curating and audience engagement, because those are skills I need to have for my students.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I was just talking with one of my students actually the other day and we were talking about like they were feeling some type of way about not practicing enough in high school and I felt that a lot. But it was like, well, I was in speech and debate and I, when I was an undergrad, I thought, oh, I should have practiced more. And now I'm like, thank God I was in speech and debate because it got me up in front of people talking and doing all of these things. So, figuring out what your mission is and then figuring out what skills you have and what skills you need to cultivate in order to, like sort of see that mission through, I think that structure is a positive structure. I want X job is is a place where you're going to. You don't get that job, you're going to feel unfulfilled the whole time.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:If you're like I'm cultivating these skills for this mission, right, whether that growth of students is middle school students or that's collegiate students or that's, you know, the aging population of of people who are retired and they have a hobby of always wanting to learn the saxophone Great, all of that you're able to see value in the work that you do and I think that sort of gives us the fulfillment of that structure which I think in school it's here's the structure, here's the grade, that's your fulfillment.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:So you have to sort of create that, that fulfillment and that structure, on your own. And I think having those more loose guidelines of here is my mission, here are my skills, allows you to reach those goals. Or at least for me, I was able to be happier along that journey than just like sort of giving up. There are many times I wanted to give up because it was like well, I can't get this job. And every time I had that mindset it was like well, I need to change my mindset in order to find, like this sort of fulfilling life, because we're, I think, as musicians, like we're always cultivating our skills on our instrument, we're always sort of reaching towards that next step, which is great. But you also have to be happy in the moment and I think that sort of structure, mission, skills allows us to be happy.
Austin McFarland:Yeah, as you were discovering this for yourself, like talk a little bit about that process. For you was, like, did it, did it happen really quickly? Was it over a course of several years? Like, how did you navigate that and what are some of the like big hurdles you felt like you had to overcome? That might be common that you've seen, as you've been teaching now for a while.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I think it's. The big hurdle for me was one the like societal or like family pressure of like you've got to make money, like it's so different from what we do because, like I didn't have my first real job until I was like 30, where my peers were having their first job at 21. So like you see them like getting married and having kids and buying a house and having a car, and I'm like taking vacations and I'm like I hope I have enough money to like pay for gas, rent and food for next month and being 27, 28 and doing that doesn't necessarily feel great. So it's that like I have to have the same. I tell my students comparison is the thief of joy, right, and we it's really hard to not compare yourself, because in what we do, you have to sort of compare yourself to other people in order to constantly understand where the level is. But at the same time, trying to do that in an objective way is hard and I think that was sort of one of the obstacles I had to overcome.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:And dealing with rejection, because it happens so often, and knowing that you're applying for jobs, you're, you're, you're doing all of these things. You might have a great product, you're putting it out there. Sometimes it's not. There are so many other factors that have nothing to do with you, but we equate so much of our art to ourselves. So finding a way for me to separate myself from my art. So really thinking of, like my teaching and my music making as a business and I know that seems cold but thinking of it as a separate entity. So if there is rejection in this field it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a failure over here. I know that sort of like. Have you found that to be true, that like separating yourself is something that's really important?
Austin McFarland:Absolutely. If I, if I don't allow myself to have that separation, I get so bogged down in imposter syndrome and like, just for an example, like there's a four year age difference between you and I but, you have a doctorate and this long teaching career that you, that you've fostered, I've only been really teaching since I was 18.
Austin McFarland:So you know, 12 years, but in the like full on academic setting, only eight. I don't have a doctorate, I think. So there was this whole long process. Even when I was doing my masters, I was a year younger than the professor I was working with. That was a difficult like hurdle for me was realizing that, okay, I have to separate these two.
Austin McFarland:I have interest in education, I have interest in music, I have interest in business, so I have all of these three facets and I can be good in all these three areas. But then is there a way that I can combine them and which has led to the path that I'm on? But, yeah, so I agree with you in that whole, you've got to separate it without it being cold. That's the you talked about. That I think that's. Another important aspect is, yes, it is who, like when I play that that is me, my expression, my art, but At the same time, like there's a transaction. I'm providing this for the audience, the audience is getting something out of it, but I have to then separate that moving forward.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Yeah, and I like that word transaction because like it's it's also when it comes down to like the thing that no one wants to talk about, which is money.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:But like, at the end of the day, like if I'm teaching, like it is a transaction, like if you are taking a lesson, I am providing a service. You are then paying for that service and, yes, I love what I do. But also, like I said, I have bills to pay, just like everyone else, and my time is worth something, everyone's time is worth something, and so knowing your worth in that time and like like not doing Necessarily things for free there are plenty of things I do for free but sort of seeing if it fits into that mission. Every opportunity that I get or that it is like is like like emailed to me, it's like okay, well, is this something that matches my mission? And then that's like how you you get that sort of fulfillment out of it. If it's not necessarily Monetary that you're getting any sort of fulfillment. But yeah, transaction also feels cold, like, oh well, I'm teaching and this is what's happening. Or like I play a concert. You go to the concert, you pay for the concert, yes, but at the end of the day, that you also need money to make art and and, and you like our Instruments, our reads, all of that are very expensive and so you need to sustain yourself to do that.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:And I think Separating will not only help, like the sort of mental aspect that comes with what we do, but I I found that it also helps like I'm able to make money and I'm able to like sort of stand like nope, this is my fee, I'm so sorry, you can't like that. That's not a fee, we can work out another way. Or I can give the opportunity to someone else, right, like I have no problem with being like okay, I can't do it at that rate, but I've got these six graduate students that would love to do this and they're gonna do it a slightly like a more affordable rate, still going to be very high quality. Here you go, and so I think, oh, my man, my brain is spinning, maybe too many cups of coffee this morning. But like going back people like if it's something you can't do, then you just connect it with someone else Right to like time, you don't have enough time, and that's like a, that's like a networking thing.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:That isn't like I need you for something, but, like I've got this opportunity someone approached me I can't do it. I really think you would be great for it. Why don't? Why? Why don't I connect you with someone else? And being that sort of connector is really really great. Not really what you asked in this question. I'm not sure how we got here.
Austin McFarland:Hey, that's okay, we're headed myself exactly and well. And community building, because being that person, that connector, starts to build this community around you. That may be local, it may be regional, it could be national, it could be the entire world. You know use. I know you spent some time studying in Japan. I'm sure you still have connections To saxophonist there and if you needed to use them or needed to hand something after them, there is that of the ability to do that. So I think, thinking about our, our careers less as like career got to make money, but more about like how can I Utilize my community to accomplish that mission, and I think you start to filter through the mission you've created and it just becomes this path. That is self-fulfilling and in that self-fulfillment I think we find the monetary, like the sustainability to be able to pursue whatever it is we're gonna pursue, yeah, and, and people find value in, in, like your skills.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:But they find value in like oh, this person is very kind, right, and they're giving opportunities Because, like, I can't do everything that is asked of me and so, like, you can give things away to other people and it doesn't mean less for you, it actually might mean more for you in the end, because people are thinking fondly of you and then they're able to sort of like, give you, give you back opportunities that you know reciprocity might happen. I mean, I'm not doing those things in hopes that everyone is gonna come back and do it. It's just like I literally can't do it. I have to give it to someone else. And Sort of what you were just saying made me think of like how Newport's got this really great book when he talks about career capital and like building, like skills. And I want to go back to like building a mission statement. Because if your mission is like, well, I want to have this great business, and like, or I want to provide this product, blah, blah, blah, and you've got all this but you've got none of the skills to match it, that's a problem too. So just having a mission is not enough. So I can't I Can't talk more enough about like these skills that you'd like you need to cultivate, like I mean, and find what is needed. So, like speaking from a saxophone professor I, I play the saxophone, correct.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:That's what school prepared me to do a lot of. But my day I spent a lot more time sending emails. I spent a lot more time teaching. I'm sitting on committees, I'm reading student papers, I'm giving feedback to students about like papers and and and their teaching. Like there's a lot of like that interpersonal skill set or, you know, like having to navigate Sticky situations with maybe other faculty members, staff members, community members. All of those things are important skills to have. But really school prepared me for one thing. Let me backtrack. I don't want to sell school short. Primary focus of my, of my degree, was, like you have to play the saxophone. I think there are a lot of other skills that were happening that I want. I wasn't seeing a skill building while they were, while they were going on. So you know we talk a lot about like what do music Musicians have a skills beyond just playing the instrument, and the sooner you can start to realize those things, whether that's through podcasts like this, whether that's through your own applied teacher, whether that's just through your own self reflection.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I think it's really important to find those things, because then I think those added skills sort of give you power, right, like you feel like, oh, I can do this, I have all of these skills minus. Like, oh, I can sit in a room and Tutut for a couple hours. Really. Well, right, did you find that? That? That was like you said. I've got all of these different areas that I'm interested in. And then you realize, oh, I've got all these skills and actually I can put them all into one thing and that's a fulfilling thing. Was that? Was that your?
Austin McFarland:story, basically how it, how it worked out as I, as I started dipping my toe in the industry and working with, with Global and doing all these other things, it was like, oh wait, a minute, like I, can I communicate really well from the business side, communicate really well with the parents that you know, because I, my my private studio, do the, can do the education thing really well. I mean, obviously I'm sitting in this in the office here, um, and Then it was like what's missing from the music industry? How can I like fill this role or what can I bring to that that sort of fill fulfills all of my desires? And and arts marketing management strategy sort of fell out of that, because it was like, oh there's, there's a missing skill set in that musicians don't understand that they have these business skills Because we do like project management is just learning a piece of music in a difference it's just with a different title, it really is.
Austin McFarland:And Realizing that all of that sort of fit together and I was doing everything, it was like, okay, now I need to find a way to use that education skill set to teach musicians that they already have the skills to pursue a career on their own and so watching all of that sort of unfold and it has been a longer process for me um, just because I didn't have the Understanding of what I wanted early on. Early on I thought it was like I'm just gonna get a job and be a band director and like that's the thing. And, as I've reflected and looked at, like everything over the course of my life, you know, my first entrepreneurship class I enrolled in was 14, so this business skill set has been growing for, you know, 16 years Essentially, and I had no idea that I could utilize it in this way or that it would feed my ear, feed my art, essentially.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Well, and, and you gave yourself the space and the time to like sort of discover and like that's. I mean, I Think so much in my studio, just like how you practice, but also just in life. Reflection is so important and just thinking about like I spend everyday journaling. I live in Boulder, um, so, like, I spend everyday journaling to think about, like, where I've come from and what skills are there. You know, you, you talk about like, oh, I, I, I was enrolling in entrepreneurship at 14.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:It was like languages were always something that was interesting to me. When I started college, I was like gonna be a German and music major and then it was like, well, I ended up in Japan. I learned a different language and it was like that was always there. I just didn't realize it. And I I think about like, well, while I'm very happy where I am, what would life look like if I would have realized? I, this was an interest of like connecting with people across the world through language, and how would that influence where I would go? And so I'm always trying to get students to see more of like. Okay, well, what else are you interested in? Okay, well, trying to connect the dots, because I think that's what you're doing. You're like you've got all the things, but I'm just trying to get you to connect the dots.
Austin McFarland:And I see that all the time in my students. It's the you know they. Right now I'm working with a student. She's new this semester, this is the first time I've taken on a bunch of lessons in my role and she plays in a Latin American band every weekend, does not read music well, but plays saxophone in this Latin ensemble and has to play by ear and she wants to learn how to read. So she's actually going to we're going to rely on her transcription ability and her ability to play by ear and focus all of my teaching skills on getting her to read.
Austin McFarland:But the transcription stuff she's going to do to fulfill the rep requirement is going to force me to transcribe and work on a skill that I don't use enough and don't honestly have the like. I don't feel like I have the right skill set to be doing it, but I'm going to see what she can teach me. So finding ways to even learn from my students gives me the ability to look at their skill set and mine and go how can I, how can I help them further their career while also furthering my career, because us learning together gets both of us farther than us trying to do it in our own silo, yeah, and if you spend the whole time just operating in your own like your own skill set, you're not necessarily you're essentially teaching the same thing, right?
Dr. Nathan Mertens:You're like like I don't want to have a carbon copy of my students, right, and at the end of the day there aren't enough jobs to sustain me teaching carbon copies to my students, right? And so like, how can? Okay, here are all your skills I'm growing, you're growing, okay, how great, because now I have more skills to then offer the next student, right, but then they also have a cultivated skill set of like oh well, this is, I'm so much better at this, but you know, Dr Merton was also talking about that they've got a larger skill set, essentially more tools at their disposal to be the educator. I mean, the market is going in a way where professors, teachers, everyone you have to be able to do not necessarily I say more, but it's you have to be able to have a much diverse skill set. You have to do a little of this, a little of that, a little of that, and then that's all sort of packaged into one job versus like I only do this one thing.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:But even me, as only the teacher of classical saxophone. I don't just teach classical saxophone right, I serve on a diversity committee. I also serve on an academic policy committee, so I need to understand systems, I need to understand how these policies and affect students, and so there's a level of empathy with that right and all of that sort of will bump together. I know this is a podcast medium but like I just keep forcing my hands together because it's really all connected. But we oftentimes silo everything off set, like playing is different than teaching and then like teaching is different than admin. But like they're, like you said, like planning a recital is project management, you do a chamber music recital. That is, you're working with people, you're managing people, you're managing systems. Like you have to get all of the things done, like you've got all the skills right there.
Austin McFarland:Hard deadlines, soft deadlines it's all like everything rolled into one. It's so funny, because I and I've started doing this even with my younger students, the middle school and high school kids that I'm talking about the development of skills versus you have to play this specific technique. We're working on this skill, big skill. Here is the small piece you're going to do right now to get to that point and I, with my college students, I actually am taking the time to go.
Austin McFarland:You realize this is a project management piece, that we can apply this to anything and we talk about how they could apply. Like, sit down and think through the process of learning a piece. Now sit through and think through any process you do at your job or any you know, and how those overlap and they start to see I can see the light bulb go on of oh, this is what he's talking about, this is how I get better, this is how I accomplish more in a shorter amount of time, so that I have the ability to practice if I need to practice or, you know, go spend time with friends or go on a vacation or whatever it is. I think, if we understand, like, dig deep in the planning of everything, like we do, when we practice, then we open we this creative space, and pursuing your own career allows you to also get that break and you're not just go, go, go, go go all the time.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Yeah, and it's like you know, they, they, they say, grow where you are planted, sort of a take on that that I, I like is like, find value in what you're doing now, right, because, like again, we're constantly like, oh well, that's all the way in the future. But, like, even when I was like I mean, I was joking with the my studio was like, well, what summer jobs did you have, dr Merren's, where you just always teaching us like summer camps and doing that, and it was like no one summer. I was like a forklift driver, right, I was an overnight forklift driver, right, and again, that was like I was. I was in a world of, like non-musicians and to have to speak about what I do and I have people be interested and speak at a level that was like not sort of like what we were talking before, like nose up, just being like, yeah, this is what I do, this is really cool, you should. Oh, here are some opportunities in the area, but like it's, it's again my hands are coming together. It's all sort of connected because you're finding value in people and you're finding value in the work that you are currently doing and knowing that the skills that you are building now will probably be advantageous moving forward.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:If you sort of harness those skills Right, you could look at like well, I just work at fast food job, it has nothing to do with my career. Hmm, it's like well, but you've got you, you might be a manager. So you're now, you're managing people like a studio, if you're, if you're a, you have a studio, you're managing people and actually like a private studio, you're not only managing your own students but you're managing parents. So you've got different ages right. You've got communication skills that you're building. Like all of that time management, all of that is built into that job. So if you can think about it in finding the value in that job, then, like the next job is either easier to get or like you are sustained and you are happy in that current job. Because I see a lot of burnout in the music world and it's yes, burnout is sort of there in every field, but in music I feel like it comes from not finding inherent value in what you're doing, because we're trying to achieve status.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I am so happy if, like, students are coming from an amazing middle school and high school teacher because it makes my job so much easier. There's like we can get to music. We're not working. There's not a lot of like, oh, I have to completely fix everything. To me, that is worth so much more. That job is so much more important because you're starting kids off right, they've got the correct skills and like, while I have a quote, university job, ooh, but like middle school, you're putting them right. I'm praising you. That's because, like also, you're working with middle school. That's the Lord's work. You know, like not for me, but like or elementary school teachers, you're teaching these kids to sulfage and like like stop chasing status. And like like find the value on what you're doing, which I again, I'll connect it. It goes back to a mission statement.
Austin McFarland:So, yeah, it goes back to the impact. What are we trying to bring to the world through whatever the skill set or whatever you know, whatever the mission is? Because I think if we focus on serving people with the art, then we get to that place where we're, where we're fulfilled emotionally, financially, and we have the, we're not going to feel that burnout as much or we're going to be able to combat the burnout. Let's let's put it that way we can. We can fight back a little bit because we have the financial resources to create that space because, again, time is valuable.
Austin McFarland:The generalist thing you were talking about having, like having to have a little bit of a lot of things. So did that? I know I think you've read the book range David Epstein Was that sort of around the like. You stumbled upon that book as you were realizing you needed that or that sort of came out of. And how how can we, as musicians, foster that generalization and sort of get those skill sets if we don't know where to go looking for them? Like, do we rely on our community? Do we like? How do we seek that out?
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I think there's a lot of resources that are already available. Like I read, like I almost read exclusively nonfiction, and so I read a lot of books about like. I read a lot of books about like productivity and like how to be a productive like. But also balance is my new like. When I was in grad school, it was like how can I be as productive as possible? And now I'm like, how can I have balance? So I also have a semblance of like a personal life.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:So I've been reading right now a lot of like how Newport, which is just talking about how to like be super focused, do the work that you need to do, do the deep work and then essentially, like, have the time to be a person scheduling all of that out. But to answer your question about like range, I think that was an afterthought Like I think I read that book and then was like ah, I'm already sort of doing this, but again, what would my life be like if I would have read that book earlier? Where I would have been? I think we get there's the phrase what, uh, jack, of all trades, what's the skill that? Nothing does.
Austin McFarland:Yeah, jack of all trades, master of none.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Master of none. So I think it's possible to like actually like you can be hyper specialized, right, you can be absolutely the world's best clarinetist, right, but you also are playing in a chamber group where you've got, like, these admin skills and I think it's it's it's possible to foster both of them without either one of them depleting. And so it's. It sort of goes back to like how do you balance everything in your life? And so there are times where I am much more of an administrator, right, there are times where I'm much more of a teacher, there are times where I'm much more of a player, and when I get burned out is when I try to do everything at the like a very, very high level. So like the generalists, yeah, but it's like generalists with spikes of.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I'm also an expert in sort of all of these fields, because you can't operate at, you can't be this like amazing marketer, also a performer, also the world's greatest teacher. That is like so much pressure to put on yourself all at the same time. You can be a great teacher and administrator for a couple of months and then, oh, I've got performances. I need to do that as well. It doesn't make you less than if you need to sort of generalize and that and that spike goes into a different area, but again, diverse skill set, that you're able to sort of fluctuate where the expertise lies and where your energy is going. Yeah, I think I hope that answers the question.
Austin McFarland:Yeah, so a little nerdy productivity question. And how do you manage that in your day-to-day life? Is it a like weekly planning session and you're looking weekly at where you have to do stuff, or is this like a daily thing? Because for me it's a daily thing. I literally look at that task list every day, have a mental breakdown and then move on.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Mine is a combination of all of the above. So I I Sit at the beginning of because, like for me, academic years are sort of like this that's my quote-unquote new year. That's where I'm here, new me. So I sit down and I plan my goals, like over the summer, I'm thinking about what are my goals for that academic year? Those gear, teaching, those are performing, that's research, creative activity, all of those things I'm thinking about. What are my goals? Then I break those goals down into semesters, then I break those goals down into months and then every, every day, right or at the start of a week, I look at okay, what is my goal for the month, what can I accomplish this week? And then I break that down into days and because I'm, if you can't tell, type a already, I even break.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:So every day, when I wake up, after I walk my dog, I journal, and when I'm eating breakfast, I take a look at my, my, my Google calendar and I write down what I'm doing and I plan out my day every minute, from like eight to seven, and the goal of that is not to stick to my calendar or stick to my schedule. The goal is to be intentional with my time. So that way I go into the day instead of just like, well, I guess I'll answer emails for three hours, right, but you never say that you go into, like, I'll just answer emails for a couple minutes. You go down a rabbit hole three hours later and then all of a sudden you're like, well, I didn't get to the things that mattered, right, and so that's where, like, I just was burning out for the past couple years.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:So I've been doing this for, like I said, two weeks now. It's it's been good for me. Like it's just like, nope, I'm practicing now, so the laptop is not open. Or it's like, no, I'm teaching, I'll get to the emails later, and I also don't feel guilty about like Not practicing or not doing that, because I had already planned it out. It was intentional what I was going to do.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:And then, if something Happens right, like a student has an emergency, I've got a meeting that I forgot about, which also happens I just redo the calendar, like, so the calendar that I use has got space on the sides, and I just redo my schedule for the day, and then I just take notes at the end of the day, like these are the things I want to work on. Did I accomplish what I need for the week? And then every week I look at that and that sort of helps me stay on track for my goals. So I know that seems super, super planned out, but it's again just for me being intentional with my time to be able to make sure I can. I can get the most out of my day as both a worker and as a human being, because that that wasn't always the case.
Austin McFarland:I Love that you've left place for flexibility, because that was when I was going through the process of trying to figure out what was gonna work for me. I tried to do that like this is the structure and this is what I'm gonna stick to, and it felt like those were the days that like Everything was going wrong and I was beating myself against the wall Because I wasn't accomplishing anything and I knew I wasn't accomplishing anything. So I like that you've you made a space for it's okay, if something else happens, we'll get to it, but I, you know, gotta, gotta take care of this first. I think that's that's something that we tend to forget about, because in that academic setting, it's like class happens at this time I have to be there because the grade, all that stuff. We forget that Life happens and it's okay.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Yeah and like. Again, the goal is not to stick to the schedule, the goal is to like just okay, well, I know, from eight to nine that's my warm-up time, then I teach from nine to twelve and then it's like I I even schedule in like walks with my dog, and those are walks like I'm, I just Walk around the neighborhood with my dog and like that's so important. Because all of those things like we also, you know, we talk about work, work, work, work, work, work and having work life balance. But I think it's being like finding those little chunks of joy, of like creativity, especially people who are in the arts. You need more things in your life to Sustain you.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:For a long time I was a producer of music and I was not really a consumer Because I would like for go going to concerts, because I was like I need to practice, but I was missing out on all these great opportunities to hear these amazing artists. That then I, I'm inspired, I'm, I'm like, oh, I wonder what they're doing, and all those things give you the energy, the motivation, whatever you want to call it to then pursue your own projects. So having that flexibility in your very type a schedule is absolutely possible. So it's it's working right now. And also I can't take a hundred percent credit Count.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:This is a Cal Newport thing, so I Promise I'm not sponsored by him. I just I Think it's really really great that the work that he does because he talks a lot about like how do we do the most meaningful deep work and not get bogged down by like sort of the little mundane things which would be, like he calls shallow work, which sometimes is taking care of emails or doing like all of these other like Smaller things that were the deep work. For me is teaching and performing right. That's sort of like where, where I need to invest a lot of my energy and it's, it's been working, so I can't take credit for it, but it's Two weeks in, I'm happy.
Austin McFarland:So it's working, who cares, right? Yeah, let's talk a little bit about work, life balance and that sort of finding the creativity in those other places. Like do you find living now in Colorado I know you haven't been there long, you went from the fake mountains here in Arkansas to the real mountains there in Colorado Do you find that like that time outside like helps the creative process? I know for me it does, like I am itching to get out of the building or out of the house on a regular basis Just because, let giving my mind that space to wander, I feel like my musicianship gets better in the process.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Yeah, it's almost like I find time where I I'm like chasing boredom. You know, like if I I'm so used to filling Every second with work, with work, with work, and that like I'm emailing until 10 30 at night and like I'm like, oh, I can write that, grant, I can find the other thing. But I'm far more productive if I actually just take the time you know, like I mentioned, like journal and then I plan out my day. That takes time in the morning to do that. It takes about 30 minutes, but I have found that the rest of my day is better because of it and so really trying to stop myself to be able to find that time. But I will say that with a new job I am still I can find my.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I Find myself constantly getting pulled back to like you just need to do more work. You need to do more work where, like if I go for it like walks with my dog or like you know I've got mountains here we can go for like a small hike or something that Not only like sort of rejuvenates my soul but like my brain along the way, I almost need a sticky note because I come up with my best ideas. We're like you know you talk about like people are like oh, I get the best ideas in the shower, yeah, because your mind is wandering, it's bored, and so there's tons of research. But it says that all of that happens, and so giving yourself the space to be bored and giving yourself the space to think, thinking of that as being as just as productive as actually sitting there click-clacking, whether that be on a Laptop or on an instrument, just making sure that you've you've allowed yourself this, the space to do it, because that's where you get to sort of discover again, reflection, who you are, what you want, versus this is what everyone else is telling me to do, which I think in school, as music majors, there is no time for that, especially the undergraduates like there is very little time to sort of have that you time, and so trying to cultivate even 30 minutes of that with my students, I think is really, really important.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:So, yeah, look, we've got a student chapter of a saxophone. I mean at Arkansas was the Saxon Society of the University of Arkansas. We've got something similar and like go on hikes, go bowling, we have dinner together. So we have time separated from our instrument. And Now I'll take the conversation all the way back to the beginning. We connect as people. So my studio, my studio, connected at dinner. Before we've not studio class. Before classes started, we had dinner at my house and we connected as people first and then we'll connect as musicians. But like going there and having that space to Be creative and bounce ideas off of each other and just be humans, I think it's just as rejuvenating as like sitting there and playing really great music together mm-hmm, we start to wrap up here.
Austin McFarland:what For for undergrads or anyone in any music program listening to this right now. What are the three things? And I probably can answer this for myself, but I want you to say it what are the three things they should be focused on, outside of just the academic stuff that they should develop in themselves, whether the three skills that you think are missing or need more cultivation amongst students in academia, music students in academia, I think reflection.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:I mean reflection is so big and I mean the etymology of reflection, really like it means to lean back right and so, like, leaning back and looking at what, what have you done? We spend so much time thinking forward, which is great, but lean back and look at what you've done, look at what you've accomplished, feeling grateful and for all of that is really, really important. So having time to reflect, I think, is great. Being flexible, I think, is also really great. Yes, you like you said I want to be a band teacher. This is all I want to do. But you were like well, but I also have these other skills that bring me joy and also fulfill my mission. So I'm going to explore other options and last year you literally were a band teacher and that's that's neither a step forward or step backwards, it's literally a step in the same direction because you're fulfilling your mission. Still like it's all of the same skills. So I think being flexible and then Flexible was the first one. I already forgot, oh no.
Austin McFarland:I don't know what did you say.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Oh, reflection reflection and reflection. I do thank you for that reflection, cleaning back, thinking about that. That was on purpose. So reflection and oh my gosh, and Like being flexible and then finding value. I think finding value in where you are I think is really really important. Like all of those are talking about mission skills, people, all of those are the things so like I think that's sort of where it's at. Those seem very big picture and vague, but that's where I've seen the most success, I think, and that's where I've seen the most success, sort of assisting students as they're sort of on this journey as well.
Austin McFarland:Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that the Broadness of them allows us to get narrow with what's actually going on up here and what's happening.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:And the narrow part is up to you. My narrow is different than your narrow. It's not right, it's not wrong. It's Austin and Nathan right, they're. Just the narrowing is going to be different, and so, again, finding value in that is really, really important.
Austin McFarland:Yeah, so how can our listeners connect with you after listening to this episode? What, how, what's the best way for them to connect with you if they would like to?
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Well, like every millennial, I have Instagram, so you can find me at on Instagram, at nmertenssax, and I'm there that you can find a bunch of news on what I'm doing. It's mostly a professional account where I post about like saxophone stuff, but you're also going to see pictures of my dog and my partner, because that's just as much a part of like sort of who I am as an artist and my life, and I believe those are not separate. So Instagram would definitely be the best place. And then if you're ever in Colorado, please let me know. I'd love to see you.
Austin McFarland:So Well, Nathan, it's been a pleasure to have you today and thank you for joining us.
Dr. Nathan Mertens:Yes, thank you so much for having me. It's been great.
Austin McFarland:Thank you for being a part of the community stage. It wouldn't be a community without listeners like you. Stay tuned for our upcoming episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and share our podcast with your friends, family and fellow music enthusiasts. Until next time, keep dreaming, keep creating and keep thriving musicpreneurs. Goodbye for now.