Angela Haymond, a postpartum night doula and experienced surrogate mother, joins me in a discussion about her personal surrogacy experiences.
Embarking on the path to become a surrogate isn't as simple as a decision—it's a cascade of considerations, qualifications, and processes that ensure the safety and compatibility of all involved. Angela delves into the meticulous steps, from medical and legal screenings to matching with the right intended parents.
Angela offers a candid glimpse into this unique world. The conversation explores how she navigates bonding with the babies she carries, the intricate legalities, and the very special role her own children play in her surrogacy journey. Join us as we share a powerful testament to the human spirit's capacity for compassion and connection.
Visit our website, here: https://birthlearning.com/
Follow us on Facebook at Birth Learning
Follow us on Instagram at @birthlearning
Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Angela Haymond, a postpartum night doula and experienced surrogate mother, joins me in a discussion about her personal surrogacy experiences.
Embarking on the path to become a surrogate isn't as simple as a decision—it's a cascade of considerations, qualifications, and processes that ensure the safety and compatibility of all involved. Angela delves into the meticulous steps, from medical and legal screenings to matching with the right intended parents.
Angela offers a candid glimpse into this unique world. The conversation explores how she navigates bonding with the babies she carries, the intricate legalities, and the very special role her own children play in her surrogacy journey. Join us as we share a powerful testament to the human spirit's capacity for compassion and connection.
Visit our website, here: https://birthlearning.com/
Follow us on Facebook at Birth Learning
Follow us on Instagram at @birthlearning
Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Welcome to the Ordinary Dula Podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning, where we help prepare folks for labor and birth with expertise coming from 20 years of experience in a busy Dula practice helping thousands of people prepare for labor, providing essential knowledge and tools for positive and empowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2:Well, welcome to the Ordinary Dula Podcast. My name is Angie Rozier, your host with Birth Learning, and we have a pretty awesome guest with us today. I will introduce her and then I'll let her tell us a little bit more about her. Her name is Angela Heyman. Angela and I have actually known each other since we were in the fourth grade so that's sometime in the 80s and it's been fun to know each other through childhood and then into parenting as well, and we've enjoyed our friendship and association together. So she has such cool, unique experiences with so many things regarding kind of our podcast and childbirth and lots of interesting aspects of that that we're going to dive into with her over a couple of episodes. So I will let Angela introduce herself a little bit further and then we will get into our topic for this episode. Angela, take it away.
Speaker 3:Hey, so, like you said, I'm Angela Heyman. I am a single mom of two sons Donovan is 18 and Keyen is 20. And I am a postpartum night doula. I've been doing that for almost 10 years and I don't know how much you want to know, but I'm currently 36 weeks pregnant as a surrogate almost 37 weeks and my life 10 years ago suddenly became completely surrounded by babies, out of no like thought or desire. It's just kind of where it led and I say that my postpartum night doula job is the dream job I never knew I wanted. Yeah, so that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 2:Angela Very cool. So right there you can tell she has a pretty interesting journey and today we are going to talk about surrogacy and her pathway into surrogacy, which she has done several times at this point and, as you heard, is currently doing. She's pretty close to having another baby. So, angela, tell us a little bit about your journey into surrogacy and what brought you there. Let's start with that and, yeah, tell us about that.
Speaker 3:Angela. So when my first son was born in 2003,. I do not have a hard time getting pregnant, it's very, very easy for me. And about I think it's about day three after we came home from the hospital, my husband at the time was working nights and so I was trying to keep the baby quiet during the day so he could sleep and he was crying and I was crying and it was just really, really hard and I just had this thought pop into my head that said this is supposed to be the hard part. The hard part isn't supposed to be getting the baby. And like I just knew right then I was going to have a baby for someone one day, which was a weird thought to have because I didn't have a hard time. Like infertility wasn't even on my radar, but having a baby and the difficulty of the adjustment was on my radar, and so I just kind of knew that would happen.
Speaker 2:And then fast way back then, like you knew.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I knew, and if you ask people who have known me since then, no one was surprised when I said I was doing my first surrogacy journey. They're like, oh yeah, you've talked about that for a really long time. So then I had my second baby two and a half years later.
Speaker 3:And then life happened and I my marriage ended and I was a single mom and just trying to like adjust to that new lifestyle and I had never forgotten about surrogacy and I actually offered to do it for a few of my friends that I knew that were struggling to get pregnant, and none of them wanted to take me up on it because, bless their hearts, they just really wanted me to get remarried. And they were worried if I got pregnant and then met the person I was supposed to marry, that it wouldn't happen and I would tell them, well, like then, that's not someone I want to marry, like this is something I really want to do, like I called it something on my spiritual bucket list and so no, no, no, no. And so finally I was like that's a pretty big offer.
Speaker 3:If you'd like to say to a friend or a family member, somebody you know, you want me to have a baby for you like, yeah, you know you're offering a lot there, yeah, and I think they probably felt like they would be selfish to take me up on it because I was a single mom and or maybe they didn't think it was as serious as I right.
Speaker 2:And believe you yeah.
Speaker 3:So I was like, okay, I'm gonna have to go about this a different way. But and I had gone on websites a few and I just was like I don't know who's like legitimate and who's because this was what we're in two early 2000.
Speaker 3:This was about 2000. Like nine or 10, when I was researching, and then in 2010, I moved into my new home and one of the very first people I met was pregnant and I said to her oh, congratulations on your pregnancy. And she's like oh, thanks, but I'm a surrogate. And I was like oh, like best friend, like the light, just I just knew. And so I talked to her and I call her my surrogacy mentor because she pointed me to a few legitimate websites to go to and she gave me some really good advice. She's like just look at like a few of these different agencies, because I knew that's how I'd have to find a couple and you will know, just like, go on their website and you'll know when you find the one you're supposed to go to. That'll feel right. Yeah, and that's exactly what happened, Like I didn't excuse me, I didn't even like the website hadn't even finished loading and I was like oh, this is, this is interesting to go to and so and tell me about surrogacy agencies like are they close to where you live?
Speaker 2:are they national? Like, what do people look for at the time?
Speaker 3:maybe at the time it was different at the time there weren't any in Utah, so most I mean there was a lot in California and.
Speaker 3:I think a couple, maybe one actually. I'm not sure where a lot of them were, but I knew a few were in California, and so it would be like a long-distance type of relationship, although the just because they're located in California doesn't mean they don't match people from all over the world. Right, there are like some surrogates that have babies for people in China or in Europe or in New York or like there's all kinds of options don't have to be in geographical proximity to do this and a lot of that.
Speaker 3:Like you, you choose the couple based on the relationship you want to have with them, and for me it was really important to have a relationship with the intended parents and the kids, and so are there intended parents who don't want a relationship with? The surrogate. Okay, yeah, and there's some that don't tell their children that they were born via surrogacy right, so okay it can be very open.
Speaker 3:I know I know, like they say the one, a lot of the ones in China come to America to have kids because it's the way to skirt around the more than two kid policy if they have them here and that's more just like a language barrier and it's very transactional. Like you, do the surrogacy you give the baby to them and it's done. And I knew that wouldn't work for me.
Speaker 2:I knew I wanted more out of the relationship.
Speaker 3:Yes, and the agency that I picked and like they called themselves a boutique agency. So they really like the application I filled out, I think was maybe 20 pages long probably they knew more about me than my best friend did and then same with them. They read all the applications and they look at the surrogates and they look at the attended parents and they try and match them up based on their similarities and so that's what someone's selecting like for both parties, or are both parties selecting each other, or did they select for you?
Speaker 3:so with my agency they selected for for us that they, they, they showed the intended parents like maybe four surrogates and then the intended parents picked they're like, oh, we like these two and I was one of them and then. So then they send me the intended parents profile and I look at it because I get a choice in the matter as well and decide how I feel good about it. I don't know if some surrogates more get more than one set of intended parents. Look at I only got one and there's like what do you think we think you'd be perfect. Look over this profile and tell you, tell us how you feel about it.
Speaker 2:And that's how I got matched the first time and so with the application, if I can ask you said they know a lot about you. Yes, I'm sure that's health. Yes, three, right, what else? Like tell us a little bit about what's involved in the application what?
Speaker 3:what makes you mad in traffic?
Speaker 2:wow your favorite flower.
Speaker 3:What your if you could have a gift card to any restaurant? What would it be?
Speaker 2:what we're going into personality, preferences, everything yes, yes.
Speaker 3:Do you believe in? Do you? Are you pro life? Are you, are you? Do you have any problems with same-sex couples? Like just so many things that I really had to think about because I was like I don't know yeah, interesting about the sounds of like what is my favorite book?
Speaker 2:like wow yeah, so they really are trying to match personalities for relationship, if that's what the people want. Yeah, interesting, yeah, and probably a lot of health things too, right, yes, for your fertility background, how many kids you've had, how recent it's been all my surrogacy's.
Speaker 3:I've been advanced maternal age. The agency did not care about that. The agency at the time. All they cared about was that it hadn't been like 20 years since I'd had my last baby my youngest was eight. No, no, no. When we got matched, he was. He was six when we got matched, no seven when we got matched. Eight when the babies were born.
Speaker 2:So, and that's what they care about, more than like how old you are and and tell me what qualifies someone to be a surrogate or what disqualifies someone to be a surrogate. Like you, have to have had your own baby at some point, correct?
Speaker 3:yes, well, in Utah that's a lot. You've had to have your own baby and also that's just good practice in general. Test embryo and someone who's infertile like that would be really, really devastating. They care a lot about your BMI. They care you can't be on any kind of government assistance. Gosh, it's been so long I'm trying to remember. Yeah, restrictions are. Oh, if you do have a partner, the partner needs to be on board and willing to like write a letter and say that they're supportive, and but you don't have to have a partner overall general healthy.
Speaker 3:I'm sure what right yeah, I'm just like with with all of them. There was, I think, four things that are like we're not even gonna talk to you if the answers yes or no to any of these things government assistance, bmi, having a partner who's supportive and having had children before I think were the top ones. But then they do a second interview where they ask more in-depth questions like tell us about your births, if you've had more than two C sections they don't like to have you as a surrogate if you've had preterm births right
Speaker 2:or a lot of miscarriages how about, like recreational drug use, do they get into lifestyle?
Speaker 3:but I don't know if they care because I have never recreationally use drugs so I don't know if that would have been a deal breaker. Got you okay that's a really good question. I suppose it would mean it would depend on, like if you were addicted and frequency, or yeah, if you've been clean, so to speak, or yeah well, so it's quite a process.
Speaker 2:Does this take weeks, months?
Speaker 3:So I had the initial interview in the evening just to see if there's any kind of ruling out. They sent me the application next day. The application took me like about a week to fill out. It was that intense. And then I think I was approved like within a couple of weeks and then I received the profile of my intended parents and this was only for my first journey. My other three were very different. Within like a month I received the profile and then we were matched in March and I was had my IVF transfer in July. It felt like forever but it really wasn't that long of a time. It was probably actually the shortest of all three that.
Speaker 2:I've done, so it can be a process.
Speaker 3:Yes, you have to be patient, because sometimes it takes a while for them to find you a match, especially if you have certain things that you're not willing to compromise, like same gender couples, or unwilling to do selective reduction if there's like quadruplets or yeah, it just depends on how picky seems like the wrong word, but it's the only one I can think of right now.
Speaker 2:So, along your process, like you had known for a long time, you wanted to do this. Was there anything along the process that seemed to be a barrier that you were like, oh wow, this is not as simple as I thought. Anything that made you have second thoughts as you really got into it.
Speaker 3:Not with my first journey.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:I went really really smoothly. There was I don't know why, but it surprised me that my intended parents had baggage. I think everybody does right, and so there was things to think about there, but not because it was bad, but just because I was like, oh, you're working with other people, right? Yeah, but then I realized I stopped my right to tell them you can have a baby based on your history or because you've had depression, or that's so silly. That just kind of took me by surprise, but it wasn't an obstacle.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Okay, yeah, even though you knew you wanted it and you get the reality of it, you're still obviously moving forward.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly Cool. And it was pretty cool because they came out. They actually came out to meet me. They chose to fly out to meet me before we even had the medical clearance done or anything. Wow, they just really wanted to make sure that it was the right fit and they were from California.
Speaker 2:Okay, so they also wanted a relationship. Obviously we're on the same page. Cool, awesome, okay. And then? What are the next steps after that?
Speaker 3:After you get matched? Yep, okay. So after you get matched you get in contact with their reproductive endocrinologist. You go through the intended parents' reproductive endocrinologist. So they flew me out to California to do a medical clearance and they just basically do an overall physical and then they do an ultrasound to make sure your uterus is good. I can't remember the name of the kind of ultrasound they do, but they put water inside of it and then kind of blow it up and make it big so that they can see if there's any polyps or just like extra careful inspection of the uterus, and then they then you like. So I spent a couple days with my intended parents and got to know them and they like that one. That took forever. That felt like two weeks. I think it was two weeks before I know if I passed that.
Speaker 3:I probably felt the longest. And then, once I passed, then we just started getting the process going of contracts, which is by far the longest because attorneys are busy. So I have an attorney and they have an attorney and, by the way, I don't pay for any of that stuff. They pay for all of that. That's included for, yeah, and so we do the contracts. And the contracts are gosh like 30, 35 pages, everything in the contract that you could possibly never want to know that could go wrong, but they have to put it in there. Like if the surrogate is in a car accident, I'm put on life support. The intended parents are now a power of attorney kind of yes, you cannot take her off life support until baby is at a term where the baby can be delivered via C-section, like just like horrifying things that you don't want to think about.
Speaker 3:but you have to, like, there there are things to consider and in the beginning it's so exciting and you just can't wait and you want to be pregnant and give these families babies. But then you're like, oh, like I could die.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, really like as you get into it, like the taking seriously the risks involved to you right and very procedural, right Incredibly medical procedures. So folks who aren't fond of medical procedures, this might not be a good pathway for them.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's and at this point it becomes very technical and the relationship, I mean, you're still building a relationship with them, like talking to them on the phone or texting or whatever, but you're, you have to be careful, or at least I was like not to talk about contracts with them. It's just only through attorneys, right, because you don't want it to get awkward or talk about money.
Speaker 2:Right, keep it simple.
Speaker 1:That gets awkward too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so it's. You have a good relationship, but it's not completely transparent. It's not transparent quite yet because you're still finishing up all the legalities of everything. Yeah, wow. So then you sign all the contracts and you go back and forth like between attorneys like we want these changes, we want these changes, we don't agree with these changes, okay, we'll compromise here. And then you finally end up signing the contracts and then you have to wait for for it to be approved. Well, okay, so you can go about it two ways. You can choose to have the judge do the approval right then and do the birth approval, that the surrogates are the parents and everything. Or you can choose to get pregnant and then just do that before delivery, and so there's risks to both. It can take a long time to get the judge to approve it. So I chose to just go ahead and get pregnant and go ahead with the idea, so you're not waiting longer, because then you can work on all of that while you're pregnant.
Speaker 3:And they my attorney would always say, like we want to get it done before baby is viable, so like before 24 weeks, so that if the baby's because if the baby's born before you get all of that approval, then it's my baby.
Speaker 3:My name goes on the birth certificate and that's just traumatizing for everybody. So, yeah, so that's a big long part, and there's things that the judges waive Like. There's things that they have to have, like a home study. I've never, actually ever, had any intended parents need a home study. The judge waived it every time. And then sometimes the judge has you come in for a hearing and sometimes he'll let you do it virtually and sometimes he just approves it. I say he, cause I've had a he every time Just approves it and lets your attorney know and you're good to go. So, yeah, that's the way that I chose to do it Interesting, very cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so then when you do the transfer, with my first journey I had to do a mock transfer because I had a tricky, crooked cervix. So I went in and the reproductive endocrinologist did a pretend transfer, like with the catheter, just minus the embryo, and she literally drew a map of my cervix because they don't want to upset your cervix cause then you'll start contracting and then there's less likelihood that the embryo or embryos will implant. And so she did a mock transfer and, just like, did a map of my cervix and figured it all out. And then I think I went back. I don't remember the time period, but then I went back for the real transfer. You're on meds for about depending on the agency or the doctor like four to six weeks. You go on birth control right away, which feels super counterintuitive, but the last thing they want you to do is get pregnant on your own.
Speaker 3:They also don't want you to ovulate because that can mess with stuff. So with my first journey I actually had to go on two types of birth control because I wouldn't stop ovulating Like they'd check. So you have a monitoring clinic in Utah that's where I am from that does all of like the ultrasounds in preparation up to the transfer and then after you're pregnant. But then for the actual transfer you go to the location the intended parents are and that reproductive endocrinologist does the transfer there where they are, yeah, so like you're seeing lots of doctors in different places.
Speaker 2:And I know I've had a lot of clients who have done IVF and I don't know if folks realize what an incredible amount of dedication that needs to be right for the person receiving the transfer.
Speaker 3:So you go through this and yes, and I was really lucky with my first one. It was actually a needle free transfer. I only took oral patch or vaginal medications. Wow, it was really. I felt like and people like you meet other people in the surrogacy world and they're like, are you sure she's reputable? Like that feels really suspicious and so. But this just proves that she is such a good doctor, because when I did my second transfer with her, with the second set of intended parents, she's like studies have shown that we need to do medication through needles and so it changed. With the same doctor it changed.
Speaker 2:So it was in a period of time.
Speaker 3:And it really depends on your doctor, what medications you're on. I don't know how much you want me to go into that or not, but Sounds like there's a lot to get into. Yeah, if you're done progesterone, All the hormones right, you get your body ready to receive a pregnancy.
Speaker 2:So, that's the big deal, and there's different ways to receive it.
Speaker 3:Like I said, patches, vaginally, orally or with needles. So well it's a different ways and every doctor has their perfect concoction. It's never been the same for me.
Speaker 2:Interesting, but it's worked Like all the methods can work. Yes, yeah, interesting, okay, so you get to the transfer which is done for you in California this time.
Speaker 3:Yes, we do the transfer. It's really cool because.
Speaker 2:And are they with you during this? Like, do some people want to be, some people not want to be like the intended parents? I guess that's.
Speaker 3:I think probably if they're international, then they're not there, because yeah?
Speaker 2:logistics.
Speaker 3:When it's international, you do it where you live.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay.
Speaker 3:But everyone I've ever heard of you, when you do the transfer, the intended parents are there and also you get to bring a guest because you have your own support person. You have a support person, mostly because you're on bed rest for the next two days and they have to literally do everything.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Including carrying your luggage when you fly back, so so you go to California for a little while, like Like three days. Yeah, okay, not bad, and again that's all things like you get compensated for missed lost wages and for mileage and for airline tickets, like all the things.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of complexities to this process. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:Which is really why I recommend, if you're gonna do it for the first time, to go through an agency. I would have been completely lost. I've done three independent journeys since then. But, if I had done it independent the first time, it would have been I would have had.
Speaker 2:There's so many things you don't even think about, right, don't occur to you, yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was even a little intimidating, even with experience, to make sure you're doing everything right and getting done so, and this is all before you even become pregnant, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes, we're just starting out, I know right.
Speaker 2:And then you get pregnant and okay. So now you have a nine month journey yes, With the intended parents.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Tell us a little bit about that In general.
Speaker 3:I know that you have a few stories, but yeah, it's so after the transfer and you're on bed rest and then you go home and, technically, the day of transfer you're two weeks pregnant because you take out the period math Mm-hmm, and so you can test pretty early and everyone has their opinions on that. I've had intended parents that wanted to know when I peed on a stick what the answer was, and some that didn't want to know until we did the blood test, and the blood test is usually two weeks after the HCG blood test is two weeks after transfer. I've tested every time on day four and been pregnant every time on day four.
Speaker 2:And so I so that's another big moment, right.
Speaker 3:For everyone to see this work.
Speaker 3:Yes, terrifying, it's terrifying, yeah, it's so huge. And then, like I'm I feel like a lot of stories right. So I'm so obsessed with like P-test, like watching it get darker and taking like two or three a day, and like lining them all up and writing the dates on them and it's pretty, it's exciting to watch, but then it's exciting to show the intended parents after. Yeah, my first set did not want to know. In fact, she did not want communication with me for those two weeks, because she's like I'm afraid I'll interpret your texts based on what you know Like oh, there's too many exclamation points or she seems a little sad and so we didn't really there's no contact, no contact. And then the night before the blood test she called me and said she's like I decided I'd rather hear it from you than from a doctor because they'd gotten such bad news so many times.
Speaker 3:This first set of intended parents. They never had a positive pregnancy test ever.
Speaker 2:They had been on this journey before.
Speaker 3:Yes, They've been trying for 10 years on their own and with their reproductive endocrinologist failed transfer after failed transfer after failed transfer, wow, and so she's like I want to know from you, and so that was really exciting to be able to tell her. I was so glad the answer was yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a big moment I know, yeah, so then it's just about just like growing a healthy baby and growing a healthy relationship with the intended parents and a lot of coordinating when they don't live locally. With what doctor's appointments are they going to come out for? Usually, in my experience, they come out for the heartbeat ultrasound and then for the anatomy ultrasound. The big one set yeah, and then with my first journey, it was twins, and so my intended parents happened to have jobs that they could both work virtually, and the intended dad's parents had a house in Park City, and so they came out at like gosh, I want to say like 33, 34 weeks.
Speaker 2:Because, twins.
Speaker 3:You never know Right. So we just we got to hang out so much more in person and that was really fun and they came to all the end of pregnancy appointments and the non-sha.
Speaker 2:So tell me for you, like you had had two children before, but this was a first multiple pregnancy for you. Yes, and how was that? How did that feel inside of yourself? Like, all right, I've done this before, but I haven't done this, this multiple birth.
Speaker 3:It was so exciting and I've said since I was in high school I'm going to have twins, even if I have to cut the egg and half myself. Like I used both words.
Speaker 2:So you were planning on it.
Speaker 3:I just didn't know it would be for someone else, right, I nannied for twins in high school, every day after school for a few hours and I just like, I just knew, and then it I don't. It was really cool because when I was deciding, choosing if I wanted to go with this set of intended parents, I said a little prayer and just kind of was thoughtful about it and I just had this picture in my brain of a boy and a girl, like maybe three or four years old, in heaven with their legs like dangling off the edge of heaven, like and clapping and cheering and waiting. And that's exactly what those twins look like now, like like it was those twins. And so I just kind of knew from the beginning.
Speaker 3:You kind of been prepared for all of this. I had been like just a little bit ignorantly, because I'm like I'm just going to have twins and I don't care what I have to do to do it, and then a little spiritually, like prepared ahead of time too, which was kind of cool yeah.
Speaker 3:So it was really fun. I loved it. It and around 30 weeks is when it got tough and back to physically. It hurt, everything hurt. From like 30 weeks on, I'd have ice packs on my ribs and heating pads on my back and, oh my gosh, you know how everyone gets a story that they like have to win. They win the story. My story is how big my ankles got.
Speaker 3:Like my from the knee down got so swollen that my feet started growing little blisters on them because there was nowhere else for the fluid to go, and they did like all the ultrasounds to make sure I didn't have any blood clots. There is shockingly little research on twins.
Speaker 1:And when I was pregnant I'm like yeah let me join the studies, let me.
Speaker 3:And there is nothing. And so they're like, maybe the baby's just laying weird on a thing like we don't know. I've never before or since had swollen ankles during pregnancy Interesting, this was like grotesque. I don't get stretch marks on my belly, but I have stretch marks on my feet from that and your ankles, interesting Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you said it got hard at 30 weeks. Were there other surprisingly hard parts through this, like you knew, going into it, what you were doing, but were there. Did you have some surprising challenges along the way? Were there physically, emotionally, relationship-ly, and well, I'll ask you that question in a minute, but OK, no, like I was just so excited, it was just really really, really fun. And what makes you excited about it? What's the driver for you?
Speaker 3:Well, once I stopped feeling nauseous, I really like being pregnant. I just love feeling that life inside of me, and I just loved watching Matt and Nikki nest and get ready and just prepare for their babies to come. It was so exciting knowing what I was going to do. I think there are people who are like but you're giving this baby away, aren't you bonding with it? And I'm giving these babies away, and I never.
Speaker 3:It was never hard, I think. A, because I've always known I wanted to do it, and B, I was a single mom and not interested in starting over raising two more babies by myself, and so it was just always just really super exciting. Every appointment, every discomfort, every kick was just like. I just cherished and loved every single bit of it. It was just super, super endearing, just a lot of fun. And there was never I'm trying to think there was never. I can't think of any time where I was scared or there was a worry, oh well, except baby A kept flipping up and down between Breach and his mom Multiple softened do Up until 38 weeks.
Speaker 3:And I remember what happened. I just raised my arms up high and just be like, hey, just get it over with. I could feel like Do your move, yeah. So that part was really stressful actually, but nothing caught your guard. I was giving the babies up or having a relationship with the parents.
Speaker 2:But tell me, how was it? You'd had two babies of your own, which everyone wants a healthy pregnancy. But how was it different trying to have a healthy pregnancy for someone else, because there are different pressure that you feel to eat right and exercise right and do all the things and pass the glucose test. And how was that doing it for someone else?
Speaker 3:I'm actually really glad you asked that question because it made pregnancy seem so much more fragile and precious. My own children, I'm like. I guess they're growing arms and legs and lungs and hearts and I'll find out if they just trust it, but when?
Speaker 3:you're getting a weekly ultrasound and literally watching this is a fetal pole that turned into a baby with a heartbeat. It's like a little bouncing bean and now suddenly it has arms and next week it has legs and you get like a close yes, and it's a little bit stressful hoping those legs and arms will grow, knowing that you're watching a play by play of it. So I'm really glad you asked that. And then the pressure of wanting those babies to come safely for the parents did make me pay closer attention to the way I took care of my body and the things that I did. I did get gestational diabetes with them, which they say is very common with paternal twins, because you have two placentas, and so then I was trying to eat healthier and I just, I just didn't want to fail them.
Speaker 3:I wanted to, but I was also never worried that it would turn out wrong either, that something terrible would happen, and so it's just kind of a fine balance between having faith but also suddenly realizing what a miracle pregnancy and birth is and having totally taken advantage of it before. Yeah, just take it to the granite right, it just happens. Yeah, you're like, yeah, this baby is going to grow and it's going to be fine, and cause it always has been.
Speaker 3:And there's something about knowing the babies from when they're microscopic, yeah, and just knowing how hard the parents have worked and how badly they want a family. And your role in that. Yeah, but they were really cute about like involving my kids and stuff too, like they had to give them birthday gifts and they could let the kids because your kids were young at the time, like they were eight and 10.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's my next question. I'm glad you said that is. How was that for your voice?
Speaker 3:They, they were so supportive and cute. You know how you can ask your kids if they'll support you in something, but you can also kind of manipulate them into saying yes that's like what I did, Especially at those ages right.
Speaker 3:Yes, it makes me sound so terrible, but I think anyone who's a parent will know what I'm talking about. So they were super excited, like so excited, and little Kean, my oldest, when I had such the swollen feet, he'd have little nail clippers and be popping all my blisters on my feet. It's helping you out. Yeah, they were just really helpful and excited. I'll jump a little bit ahead, just cause it's funny.
Speaker 3:Second surrogacy I was talking to them and my youngest, who was he was eight when they were born, so my youngest was like 10 when the second surrogacy happened and he said to me I said well, you support me on this and he goes. Okay, mom, but next time the sperm is for you. He wanted a little baby, let's us have a baby. Yes, yes, and they've always been so supportive and I don't know if this is jumping too far ahead. But after the third time, my oldest Kean he was like, okay, everybody has two kids, you have two kids. Ray and Lisa have two kids, matt and Nicky have two kids. Like everyone has two and we're done. If you want to do it again when I go to college or go on a mission or whatever, then you can do that, but like we're done and I was done supporting you in this complete support of it.
Speaker 3:And now, suddenly, I find myself 36.
Speaker 2:And he's off. You know he's college age and I do have to give him credit.
Speaker 3:He has been. They've both been. He doesn't live with me. He's been super supportive. When I told him the story of how it happened, he said all of your stories are cool, but this one's like the coolest. You have to do this and so so, and I know I ask a lot of them and I'm glad you actually brought that up because I don't have a partner.
Speaker 1:They have to chip in support and other people will do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like but it was so fun teaching them like they wait no way more than anyone else their age. When the twins were getting close to the due day, I was talking to him like my water might break and I might have contraction. Or I didn't say contraction in my water might break, and like we'll take you to dads and here's how it will go and can goes, and after your water breaks, that's when your erections start, right.
Speaker 2:Or something like that.
Speaker 3:They were trying so hard to learn and they were fascinated with it. They've been great, great boys and I know how much I've asked of them and they've just been champs being so.
Speaker 2:And this really, at this point, has been part of their life right. You've been doing this for 10 years. They've been doing this for 10 years, so they have a whole cool education right and preparation.
Speaker 3:They really do like. They'll probably maybe know more than their wives and girlfriends to be, productive Probably right and they've never complained. They've been so supportive, and part of besides knowing I wanted to do it is I think it's really important to teach. I wanted to teach them that, like you, do things for other people.
Speaker 2:This is one of the biggest things you can do for anyone.
Speaker 3:You be selfless and obviously they can't do that right, but I hope it teaches them that there's other sacrifices you can make and things that you can do Cool.
Speaker 2:So cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, angela, we are like we haven't had a great conversation and there's so much more we can talk about, but we are kind of at time. Okay, would you be willing to come back and tell some specific stories of your journeys? Absolutely. Another podcast, okay, that would be super cool. So tell us, like, just to close up, what would you share about you? You're on your fourth surrogacy journey, which will include five babies total that you will help other families with and in addition to your own two boys, but just high level. To close up, what would you say about your journey? What could? What's last thoughts you could leave with with our folks?
Speaker 3:Hmm, I guess my brain's kind of scrambling because I'm like to giving advice to people who are thinking about it, or advice to people who are struggling with infertility, or people just want to know about the journey right On either side for the IP intended parents or for surrogate persons.
Speaker 2:What are some lessons you've learned?
Speaker 3:I think I would say like if you, if you know someone who's doing a surrogacy and you don't know anything about that, ask them questions, because there's so many old wives, tales and like things that people think are true about surrogacy that aren't, and usually surrogates are really happy to educate people and just let them know how it goes and what's happening.
Speaker 3:Please don't ever ask a surrogate how much money she makes, like that's a really awkward question and it makes actually makes you feel really, really bad, like because that's, that's not the focus of the journey. The focus of the journey is getting, getting the babies there.
Speaker 2:But I don't know.
Speaker 3:I just I'm kind of at a loss for words because I feel like I would have to talk for like 10 minutes.
Speaker 2:And you're right, it depends on who your audience is right. But just in general, to the general, let's say we're talking to the general public. Or you know, and the people live in this podcast, or people interested in pregnancy or preparing a pregnancy on their own or on a pregnancy journey of their own, and I think in my experience and I've been a doula for several surrogates at this point it's becoming more common, right. Have you sense that over the years? Yeah, so I think it's having very good conversation.
Speaker 3:It's destigmatized. People are a bit way less judgmental about it than they used to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it's it.
Speaker 3:I think that that's so. I think that the biggest point is that there's no wrong way to make a family. People deserve to have children, and sometimes they have to ask others to sacrifice to make that happen.
Speaker 2:And make their own sacrifices.
Speaker 3:Yes, and, honestly, I would love to put a plug for people who are thinking about doing it. There's so many people being a surrogate.
Speaker 3:And they are in really low supply compared to how many people want them Interesting. So, if it's something that's even occurred to you that you'd like to explore, and also I don't know if any of your listeners ever reach out, but I'm happy to tell my story and give them direction and help them know what to do, because it's it's an unbelievable experience. Having said that, I know that there's certain personalities that can do it and certain ones that can't. Right, some people just bond too much with the baby that they're growing and there's just different reasons to do it or to not. But if you're thinking about it, man, I don't think you would ever regret it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Cool. Okay, Now to close up, Angela is just weeks away from another delivery and, as she said before and I totally love this she and I are the same age and she is advanced maternal age and doing her fourth surrogacy journey, which is so cool. And can you tell us how old you are?
Speaker 3:Yes, as long as you don't mind that I'm ratting out how old you are.
Speaker 2:How old we are, tell us he's way younger than me.
Speaker 3:She's like the younger, like a few months. I'm 48. Which?
Speaker 2:is so cool and pregnancy is going well.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Like very healthy and you've worked hard to do so. But yeah, it's incredible to watch. It's been so amazing, thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Excellent work. I know that these intent-appearance are. It's been fun to meet them and happy for their journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what's ahead for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's cool, Awesome. Well, Angela, thanks for being with us today. We are going to have you back again and maybe get into the details of some of your journeys, if that's all right with you. But we appreciate your time and the service that you've provided for at this point many families. We sure appreciate that. So we'll close up this episode of the Ordinary Duel podcast. Thanks so much for being with us. This is Angie Rozier, your host. We are sponsored by Birth Learning. We hope you go and I loved what in Angela's words go do something for someone else today. There's always ways we can find creative and simple to reach out and touch the lives of others for good. We hope to see you again next time.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Ordinary Duel podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning. Episode credits will be in the show notes Tune in next time as we continue to explore the many aspects of giving birth.