Embarking on the pathways of childbirth and surrogacy, with guest Angela Haymond as she shares her profound VBAC journey on the Ordinary Doula Podcast. Her honesty about the complexity of labor decisions, the weight of cesarean recoveries, and the heart-rending experience of surrogacy provides a raw, enlightening perspective that any listener touched by birth will find compelling.
In the marathon that is childbirth, every step counts, and Angela's narrative is a testament to the power of education, preparation, and advocacy. We celebrate the victories, empathize with the challenges, and ultimately provide a beacon for those considering VBAC or surrogacy. This episode isn't just about listening; it's about understanding the profound journey of these courageous women and the myriad of roads that lead to the miracle of birth. Join us for a conversation that's not just about outcomes, but about the unspoken trials and tender victories that define the birth experience.
Visit our website, here: https://birthlearning.com/
Follow us on Facebook at Birth Learning
Follow us on Instagram at @birthlearning
Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Embarking on the pathways of childbirth and surrogacy, with guest Angela Haymond as she shares her profound VBAC journey on the Ordinary Doula Podcast. Her honesty about the complexity of labor decisions, the weight of cesarean recoveries, and the heart-rending experience of surrogacy provides a raw, enlightening perspective that any listener touched by birth will find compelling.
In the marathon that is childbirth, every step counts, and Angela's narrative is a testament to the power of education, preparation, and advocacy. We celebrate the victories, empathize with the challenges, and ultimately provide a beacon for those considering VBAC or surrogacy. This episode isn't just about listening; it's about understanding the profound journey of these courageous women and the myriad of roads that lead to the miracle of birth. Join us for a conversation that's not just about outcomes, but about the unspoken trials and tender victories that define the birth experience.
Visit our website, here: https://birthlearning.com/
Follow us on Facebook at Birth Learning
Follow us on Instagram at @birthlearning
Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Welcome to the Ordinary Dula Podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning, where we help prepare folks for labor and birth with expertise coming from 20 years of experience in a busy Dula practice helping thousands of people prepare for labor, providing essential knowledge and tools for positive and empowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Ordinary Dula Podcast. This is Angie Rozier, your host, and we are sponsored by Birth Learning. Today we have a special guest with us. She's been with us before. She'll be with us again. She has some pretty amazing stories. Today we are going to talk about her VBAC story and stories where she has been, where she's headed.
Speaker 2:But a little bit about VBACs. We know VBAC means vaginal birth after cesarean and some people want a vaginal birth after they've had a C-section. Other people do not. They want to repeat C-section and there's lots of different ways to approach that. There are different ways to be supported in that. Providers look at that in different ways. Folks who are considering a VBAC after a C-section have a little bit of navigating to do throughout their pregnancy and with their care providers. Angela is with us today. I'll do a little introduction and let her introduce herself and her stories. We're just going to hear about her VBAC journey. Angela is a long time friend of mine. We've been friends since we were nine years old, which is a long time ago now. She has some pretty unique pregnancy journeys of her own. Today we'll focus on VBAC. Angela, tell us a little bit more about yourself and then we will get specifically into your VBAC story.
Speaker 3:Okay, my name is Angela Heyman and I am currently pregnant with my sixth pregnancy, seventh baby, and I have two amazing kids Well, they're not really kids anymore 18 and 20 boys. No, I know, adult boys. I am a postpartum night doula and I am a successful VBAC after two C-sections success story.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Tell us a little about your pregnant now, and if folks have listened to our other episodes they may know, but tell us about your pregnancy now.
Speaker 3:So I am almost 37 weeks pregnant with my fourth surrogacy journey. Okay, and this will be my second VBAC.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So give us a little history as to your I mean, you've given birth many times now. Give us just a brief overview of vaginal cesarean why cesarean? And then we'll focus on your VBAC story.
Speaker 3:Okay, so my first son. He was born vaginally, but by the hair of his chinny chin chin he was breech. So I had a successful external version Version. Yes, I feel like Cephalic's supposed to be in there somewhere, it's in there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, at like 38 weeks, and he just whipped right around perfectly, no complications, and he was born vaginally, which was so great. And then my second one, he was obedient and head down the whole time and was vaginally. And then my third pregnancy was a surrogacy pregnancy, with twins and baby A. She kept flipping, bummed down and head down, and bummed down and head down, like all the way up to when she was born. So she was head down and then I went into labor and we went, she did, they did an ultrasound to make sure and she was bummed down and with twins they can't do an external version. So she had to be choose baby A, baby A, yes, and she was like it was so funny because baby B was head down and I'm like can't you just like reach up there and push her bum over and like let BBB come out first, like I didn't understand why that could have logistics of the logistics of it.
Speaker 3:I'm like, why does she have to be baby A Like why can't we just push her up? I think probably my successful external version, with my oldest informed me with those questions because I'm like I know they can move over like she does all the time, so that one was a C-section Devastated.
Speaker 2:How did?
Speaker 3:you. Okay, I was going to say how did you feel about that? I was devastated. It was I devastated.
Speaker 2:I know this is a surrogacy delivery. Were you devastated for your own body, for the parents, for the babies Like? Tell me what devastated you about that.
Speaker 3:I felt like a failure. I felt like I did it wrong and, even though that's ridiculous and not true, I don't get to choose the position that the baby's in. But and it was so cute because when they said we're going to have to do a C-section, the intended mom said well, look on the bright side, like now, it will be easier for the baby because they want to have like the trauma of going through the birth canal. And the doctor was like, yeah, actually that's really important.
Speaker 3:part of birth is going through the first canal and so they were just so cute because I was just crying and crying and it was. It was a hard part. How?
Speaker 2:far before. Did you know? Like did you know?
Speaker 3:I was a labor at the hospital.
Speaker 3:Okay, so this would need to have much time to process and they're like I wish, knowing what I know now, like we always like learn and grow right, I wish they were like okay, well, the doctor has a scheduled C-section in about an hour, so let's just do it right now. I wish I'd said can I labor a little bit more because she's been flipping so much? Maybe she'll flip right back around, but I was having intense, nonstop back labor, like my back never stopped hurting. In fact, the intended father said Angela, this is the first time I've ever seen you not smile before. So I just wasn't like in my right mind and I hadn't hired a dual, I didn't have anyone advocating for me, and so so you went into spontaneous labor.
Speaker 3:Yes. For what weeks with twins? I was 37 and five. Oh nice yeah, so we're pretty full term. I think they consider 37 weeks. Well, 36, maybe 36, yeah, I think. I'm the doctor actually. Yes, it does. So, yeah, I went into spontaneous labor. I didn't know it was labor, though, because I just thought I had done something to my. I actually thought my kidney was going to explode, or something like it?
Speaker 2:How about back pain?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then when they hooked me up, they saw the contractions and you were explaining what you had to pivot like last minute.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, like last, I'd known she was head down and we were and I was so excited and good to go and I'd been doing like the ice pack and the radio and the lights and like all the things stay down. Yes, but then you explained to me that with twins, back labor is even Harvard, because there's like maybe always one baby pushing on the back and so that's why I didn't know I was in labor, because they weren't having him flowing like the contractions.
Speaker 2:That pattern used to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, but the C-section went well. Baby B had to have a little help breathing just for a few minutes, like not even any NICU time or anything, and the recovery was really hard, really, really hard, and I think part of that was mentally and emotionally, because I was just. I just felt such like a failure, like I had done it wrong.
Speaker 2:And you had not recovered from a cesarean before.
Speaker 3:No, and for my brain anyway, I don't know if other people feel this way.
Speaker 3:I feel like I've gotten the same feedback because it was so unexpected it recovery just took longer, like I would, just kind of sad and so, there's some emotional recovery to that Exactly, but I think it came out physically like with like the pain of a C-section, and it took me a while to recognize that. So anyway, that, and the hard thing about a C-section is like, even a year later, you're leaning over a counter to like put your mascara on or clean addition using that incision scar, the perfect place and it still hurts, like it's not it's not like it's just done.
Speaker 3:I had continuous reminders and because I was already so sad about it, like every little reminder was just like.
Speaker 2:More difficult.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was hard. So I was determined, with the next pregnancy, to have a vaginal birth, and this was another surrogacy with a different set of parents. And at the 20 week ultrasound we found out that I had something called Vesa Previa, which a lot of people mistake for placenta previa, but it's way more rare and way more dangerous. The easiest way for me to describe it is that usually the umbilical cords hook to the baby free floating in the amniotic fluid, and then hook to the placenta, and in my case the umbilical cord was embedded into the bags of water like it had grown into the bags of water.
Speaker 3:It's following up the side of the sack and in my case also was over my cervix, not the placenta but the umbilical cord. And so if my water had broken, then baby for sure would have bled out and there's a good chance I would have to. So with that they take so many precautions. Like towards the end I was doing three non-stress tests a week. They considered having me checked into the hospital. But they said even then, like, unless I was numb and in the OR when my water broke, that even being in the hospital wouldn't do it wouldn't be enough.
Speaker 3:It happened so fast and my doctor was extra cautious. Well, my OB was extra cautious because she had just lost a baby to undiscovered vasopravia, like maybe nine months before, to the point where, like she was crying when she was telling us about it. So it was that much to her. Then they transferred me over to MFM and the doctor was really great and really helpful, but they took him via C-section at 35 weeks. But the only reason they let me go to 35 weeks is because I carried twins and my own children to full term Because they didn't want any risk, like they didn't want me to have a contraction, they didn't want any dilating happen. So every non-stress test actually not everyone, but I think once a week they would do a vaginal ultrasound to measure how my cervix were dilating, because they didn't want to do an internal check with a finger.
Speaker 2:The danger of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so they would just measure it with instruments and so he was born. So again, I was very sad, but also there was nothing I could do at that point and I also had time. I had 15 weeks to terms with it and make my peace with it and ultimately, what you wanted to healthy baby, especially when you're doing a surrogacy.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's a few curve balls to this surrogacy journey, right.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes. So, but we loved our MFM doctor. She was just so great and I was really getting worried. At the end I was like I'm really afraid I'm going to die, like I'm scared I'm going to die, and she's like you're not going to die and I'm like you're not allowed to tell me that. And she goes. Well, I know, but you're not.
Speaker 1:I will not let you die, I will not let you die.
Speaker 3:And so it was interesting when I had the C-section, I should say, with the twins. It was really cool because they let one parent come in when one twin was delivered, they let the second parent come in when the second twin was delivered, and then they let my birthing support person, who is my sister, come in while they sewed me up.
Speaker 1:Cool.
Speaker 2:My doctor.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it was so cool because, like they were like when my sister came and I'm like I looked at her and I actually said you might have to cut this, I don't know. I was like who the hell are you? She was like all masked up and had her cap on and she like took another person.
Speaker 3:I'm your sister, but then the doctor. I'm so sorry, I just think this is fascinating. The doctor said to me she's like do you want a tour of your uterus after the twins were born? So she lifted my uterus out and put it on my chest and like, showed me my thalopian tubes and like it looked like a frozen turkey Was like they have a clear drape up.
Speaker 2:Say what they have a clear drape or did they pull the drape down?
Speaker 3:I feel like they pulled it down. That's my memory of it, but that kind of feels unsterile. So maybe there was a clear drape, but I remember seeing it really clearly and thinking that looks just like a frozen turkey, like just bouncing around on my belly. So then, with the second one, they because they had to prepare for an emergency with, like, perhaps blood transfusions and stuff. They only let one person in.
Speaker 3:So the mom chose to come in but, everything went so great, there were no complications, and after the MFM doctor brought my placenta over to show me and you could see like the umbilical cord was just implanted into it.
Speaker 3:It was really fascinating to like see what it, because I had a hard time picturing what it was because if you Google Vesa Previa, there's lots of different descriptions of it, and so they got to see exactly what they were talking about, which is the only reason I can describe this, because I'm describing what I saw. But he was totally healthy. He was six pounds nine ounces at 35 weeks. They'd done two steroids Any NICU time for him Only because he had to serve his time. If you're born for 36 weeks, you have to spend eight hours in the NICU, but he was never on oxygen Like. This particular family asked me to breastfeed the first seven days, so I was down breastfeeding him like two hours after he was born and I kind of felt like I understood a little bit that guilt people talk about when you have the healthy baby in the NICU. He was literally just serving his time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no intervention Assessed and then he could leave. Yes, you see all the little babies that are in there.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's really sad and we felt so grateful. I think his lungs were developed. I don't know if they would have been anyway, but we got the two steroids shots before. That helped with his lung development and that recovery. It was still hard. I never have easy C6. Like I have a friend who I went to visit her after her C-section and she was only on ibuprofen and when I got there she was in the bathroom and she walked out and like hopped up on the bed and I was like normal walk out.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I can barely like take a step forward after I don't know. If I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Anyway, there's all different ways to do it.
Speaker 3:I just thought I would say that, for if there's people that have a hard time, I hear you, and if there's people that don't, that's true too.
Speaker 2:And some people. You're right. I've had clients who can take ibuprofen for a couple days after a C-section and they're good and others need much stronger and really part of the controlling pain levels helps with healing If you're in a lot of pain.
Speaker 3:Movement is important to healing from a C-section and sleeping is important to healing and so if you're in pain and can't sleep, both my C-sections I had an opioid prescription and one refill with both of them and I would have taken another refill just for hard days, slair up days and stuff, or to sleep. That would have been so nice, but they've gotten much more strict with that. Back when I had my vaginal burst, they gave you a prescription of Lortab and you could have up to three refills after a week, I remember those days.
Speaker 1:So it was very shocking. I was like wait what?
Speaker 3:I can? Only have one refill and my whole body was cut open. This time. It was very, very shocking, Another mental game that I had to make an adjustment with. So anyway, that happened.
Speaker 2:And then so tell me about the emotional recovery. This time you had more time to prepare. Physical recovery can be difficult, which sounds like it was, but how was the emotional recovery this time?
Speaker 1:Much better.
Speaker 2:Okay, because you had some prep time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the hardest part emotionally with that pregnancy was just saying goodbye when they went back to California. And probably equally, maybe even more painful was drying up my milk supply after nursing for seven days Because your body's like all right, here's what we're doing. And then you just shut it down. And all my doctors every doctor I asked said it's easier just to rip the band-aid off, like you can pump for a while if you want to, but eventually you're going to have to fill that pain Like it's never going to not be easy or it's never going to be easy. So that was probably harder. And then you mix the pain of your breast just hurting so badly with the pain of having said goodbye to the people that you love.
Speaker 3:It's hard to distinguish which pain is which Right. Yeah, so Got a lot of factors going on there, exactly, but it was. I didn't feel like a failure this time. I was disappointed, but I knew that there was nothing to do about. It had to be. Yeah, like at the beginning there was hope. When they first diagnosed the vasopravia, they're like sometimes there's a chance that it can like move or change, and I don't really understand how, because I just know that it never happened. Like there was a point where, like, they're like okay, this is, this is not going to happen. And to diagnose.
Speaker 2:It is really tricky. There was a point where there was a Because you got a lot of ultrasounds.
Speaker 3:Is that why they found like so it's one of the things that my MFM group checks off their list. They have to rule out vasopravia. But for mine there was a point where there was an internal vaginal ultrasound going at the same time as an external one on two different monitors and they were like checking all the angles and the doctor was in. Like it wasn't even one of those things where they're like we're kind of the doctor, like it was. She was like controlling ultrasound and looking and deciding, which is why maybe they thought it might move, because it wasn't obvious.
Speaker 3:They had to really search to find it, but I'm so glad they did Because I don't remember the exact statistics. But a discovered vasopravia, there's a 95% chance-ish I'm not remembering the stats exactly High percent. That the baby will be born healthy.
Speaker 2:But in an undiagnosed case of vasopravia there's only a 20% chance that the baby will be born healthy, so when they know what they're working with and how to be cautious with it, yes, the one that's undiagnosed, like the baby's just bleeding out and you don't even know, because it's happening inside the bag.
Speaker 2:So I know this is not the topic of this podcast, but touch briefly, both of these C-sections you just described were for surrogacy journeys and that changed the experience and the risk to your body Was that anything that was heavy for you or weighed on you a lot? I mean, you know it's a risk going into it, right, but you faced it twice.
Speaker 3:You know, that's a really good point. I don't think I ever considered the risk. I just was like, oh, I didn't do this right.
Speaker 2:But we know. I mean, obviously the goal is we're going to get this healthy baby to its parents.
Speaker 3:That's the main goal, If you had told me you're going to have these twins and this little boy, and they're both going to be born via C-section, before I even got pregnant, like if I had that knowledge ahead of time. I honestly don't know what I would have picked. Like I think it'd have been way easier to say no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow so those are your first two surrogacy experiences.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay, yes, and I think again.
Speaker 3:I think having had a successful external version with my son would have informed that decision Like I did everything I could to avoid a C-section with him and I know this is a little off topic too, but his birth and delivery was not easy. Like he had a cord wrapped around his neck, he had meconium. Any other doctor besides mine would have been like C-section heaven we need it. But she knew, kind of flirted with a C-section before.
Speaker 3:Yes, I was stuck at a seven for like eight hours or stuck at a six for like eight hours and I and that's when his heart would desail every time they'd give me pitocin because we didn't know it. But the cord was around his neck and then he had the meconium in there. They're having me like turnover on my hands and knees and do all these things. And I really think if it hadn't been my doctor, because that was back in the day when your own doctor delivered, right, and I think she just knew how hard we worked. An example is I had a nurse and in September is apparently a really high month for delivery, all those new years babies.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she said, all the other nurses on the labor and Joe Lilly four had three or four patients and they assigned her just to me Like she was in there all the time. She never left and I was so just grateful for that. And so I think with the other ones I'm like a little bit like why can't we figure something else out? We did last time.
Speaker 2:I avoided it last time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, I don't know if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely Okay. So that's your C section stories. Tell us your V back story.
Speaker 3:All right. So the same set of parents that I had the Vesa preview with. They asked me to do it again for a sibling journey, and I got pregnant with a little girl.
Speaker 2:How long after?
Speaker 3:Um, he was born in November of 2016. And I was had my embryo transfer in March of 2019. So just almost to a little less than two and a half years later, cool, so, yeah, lots of time to heal and recover between both C sections and then the C section and the V back as well, because the twins were born in 2014. And he was born two and a half years later. So, um, I we obviously you don't know what's going to happen until it happens, and she was super obedient and head down the whole time. Oh, oh, and I forgot to tell you this, but on my Vesa, previous C section, I said to the doctor, just in case I decided to do another surrogacy what does my uterus look like? Like, will you let me know? Cause like this is our chance to find out. And she, she said it is more healthy than some uteruses that have not had C sections. Like, no windowing, super thick.
Speaker 3:Um they couldn't even see my incision on the ultrasound when I got pregnant with the V back baby. They couldn't see the incision from the C section on the ultrasound that they did. They said it just healed so nicely. So that was good to know. Like to have that insight, because a lot of people don't know what they can do.
Speaker 2:And all good to see our uterus like that Exactly so.
Speaker 3:So they were. So the doctor was um the doctor, my normal OB. I went to her and baby was doing great and I said I'd like to do a C a V back and she was like I'm sorry, you've had two C sections, we can't do that. And so I chose to go to the midwife group and the midwives in this particular hospital are under the umbrella of MFM and we went to our first midwife appointment and intended dad did not like the midwife that we went to and so he asked me to email our MFM doctor from the C section, the basic, previous C section.
Speaker 3:I hope this isn't too confusing to see if she would take me on as a high risk patient. And she's like absolutely like your two C sections, your advanced maternal age, like you, I can take you as a patient and I will support a V back, which is very backwards, stereotypically speaking. Usually MFM are have reputed I'm not going to say this is what they do, but they have reputations for like let's just cut out the baby, like this is what our jam is because we do high risk pregnancies. But she was. She's like no, there's no reason you can't do a V back.
Speaker 2:So we and MFM is good to see the most interesting stories, right. They get like you could. You're not their most high risk person at this rate. That's a really good point so they're not as scared of you as other providers or even as scared of me as they would have been with the last pregnancy Right.
Speaker 1:If you're lower risk for a few reasons yes.
Speaker 3:And the parents loved her, like loved, loved her, and I loved her too, and so it worked out great all around. Someone who was willing to do a V back, somebody that everybody loved. I was really determined. I was really healthy. I walked five miles a day, like three to four days a week, as soon as I stopped feeling nauseous and I ate really well to avoid gestational diabetes.
Speaker 3:And I researched and read a lot about how to have a successful V back, but also the importance of being unmedicated when you're trying to have a V back. So for the first time I hired a doula and my plan was to go unmedicated, not for any reason except that I wanted a successful V back, like I wanted to have a vaginal delivery. I didn't care about like epidurals affect the babies or I just knew the more interventions you introduce, the higher risk of having a rapesee section it is. And so we are all set to go and for the first time ever, the baby does decides that she doesn't want to come. And when you're advanced maternal age, they're very uncomfortable letting you go past 40 weeks pregnant Because there's little, as far as I understand it and you might be able to speak to this better is. There's little research on how well the placenta's Perform after 40 weeks.
Speaker 2:Is that fair to say? Yeah, sent as well. Yeah, they Become less effective pregnancy go they are.
Speaker 3:From how I understand it, they can become less effective. There's not a lot of research right on whether they actually will.
Speaker 2:And when we look at moms who are over 35, then, yeah, that's a factor to consider as well.
Speaker 3:Yes, and then adding in a different factor which I brought up to them was is my placenta 30 43 years old, or is it the age of that that?
Speaker 2:right right.
Speaker 3:Which is like much younger. So if my placenta is not my age, then we're not at a risk. And they were again Chockingly little research on that.
Speaker 2:It's true, it's a unique situation, and they say what was their answer for that?
Speaker 3:They didn't know and so they just like. We have to err on the side of caution, the baby but I'm sure, for litigious reasons too, they need to. And so my doctor was willing to let me go a few days into 40 weeks because the non-stress tests have been so successful and I was very Intune with the baby and knew that she was moving. My intended parents were not, and so we compromised and I said let's leave. So she was due September 3rd and I said we can. Oh no, hold on, I might be getting that wrong. She was due September 1st and I said let's get Like. And so the dad was like alright, let's induce that day. And I said no, let's induce date on September 2nd. And he's like well, can I ask you why? It was very like respectful conversation. I said because I want to give her until midnight of her eviction date.
Speaker 3:Like to come, I think, and then in my brain I'm also, and then I won't be induced until the next morning. So we'll get a few extra sleep hours? Yes, I had never had to be induced.
Speaker 3:It was very this is a whole whole news chapter for you, and I have learned since then that babies genetics play a huge part in that, because baby decides when baby wants to come. So we can't base, when I'm gonna deliver on my two your own own children's right, completely different Genetics. And I didn't know that. I had no idea. I thought it was about my body Deciding. I didn't know that baby decided right so.
Speaker 2:I think one thing you've pointed out so well that is important to take note of is the preparation you did for a V back and, and you did have two C sections, that's you know a little bit of different category which we've worked with many times. But Throughout the pregnancy you made changes. You were vigilant with your health, your exercise, provider support, preparation, do low support. Like you, you pursued this very actively throughout your pregnancy, which is important.
Speaker 3:This was me the intended parents were like, because they were there the first two sections pretty well.
Speaker 3:Like I kind of just would rather do that again, like they were actually more worried about a vaginal birth Because it's new for them their experience on their C section and so it was mostly me determined they were supportive but like they weren't, like they weren't encouraging, just supportive. And I and I should say one of the reasons I feel like I need to point this out, one of the reasons they were willing to do a V back is because I had had two successful vaginal yeah, that was huge and I know there's some women that have to fight much harder for that because I haven't had any vaginal deliveries and the two C sections I did have were, quote unquote, not my fault, like not because of failure to make that extenuating circumstance or like tiny pelvic, pelvis or right.
Speaker 3:It was circumstances out of my body's control. I don't I feel like that's important to decide, because some people really have to fight. It's not easy for them to find a, and I don't think V-backs just happen like it. You don't just trip into a.
Speaker 2:V-back. You have to do some work towards that in preparation for it. Yes, okay, so let's, let's get to the like. Obviously we don't want to. You know, spoiler alert, we have a V-back, but All right. So when you have a V, when you've had a former C section, induction looks much different than when you haven't.
Speaker 3:There's certain things you can't do. Usually with the Induction, they'll give you a medication called side attack side attack which is inserted vaginally and has a there's a few words ripen, soften, whatever your cervix, because that has to happen before you can start dilating. They cannot do that with a C-section. I actually don't remember why they can't do that. Is it cause contractions that are really may, but once, once side attack is given, we can't stop it. Oh, you can't do it.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is and puto so and we can. It's much more titratable.
Speaker 3:You can.
Speaker 2:You can see the effect and change the effect, but with side attack once it's done, we can't, you can't take that. Yes, I don't do the umbybacks. Yeah, so, so they did what's called a gentle induction.
Speaker 3:So I went in.
Speaker 2:They got me all checked in and they put a fully bulb in my vagina, which basically right in the cervix, right, yes, in the cervix.
Speaker 3:Basically, as I understand it, it's a very simple thing to do.
Speaker 2:You can see the effect and you can see the effect Basically.
Speaker 3:As I understand it, it's blown up to the point that it puts pressure on the cervix so that it will start soft, like Stimulating it. Yeah, it's more like stimulating contractions and dilating because they can't do anything to soften it when you've had a v-back. And so the point that what they say is that once you get Dilated, so yeah, they put it through your cervix. They say, once you're dilated to a four, it will fall out and then you know that's usually blown up to four centimeters.
Speaker 2:Yes, a lean yes.
Speaker 3:Yes, so they put it in and they like tape the strap to my leg so I have like Stuff all these tubes hanging out in the vagina. It was Really painful really painful not to have it but to have it inserted. They had to try Like four or five times and there's the last time. She's like I'm just like. I was just like holding my doula's hand and just grinning and not grinning.
Speaker 1:Gritting my teeth.
Speaker 3:Like, like making like loud, uncomfortable noises that hurt so bad. And I think it's because the position Not only of my cervix but of the cervix that's not ready, since it's anterior, like they had to reach.
Speaker 2:They're kind of doing. Finally, yeah, really no and so this is before labor begins, so that cervix is harder to reach a lot of exactly, and I Do not progress before like I've had.
Speaker 3:I've had Three appointments the day before three of my deliveries where I was checked. My cervix were checked and I was like Not even nothing going on to faced any dilated, and then my babies were born the next day. Yeah, so that's what I look like, so. So it was uncomfortable, not only because they're doing it blind, but they had to like really shove it up in there. I wasn't even dilated at all, like they said. I think they said their fingertip with that. So then I just my contraction started and, um, they were like very much. The only way I can think of is like anal contractions, like it just hurt a lot in my bum and you've got that extra catheter in there too, like a little balloon in there, which is causing interesting pressures.
Speaker 3:Yes, so then I just started walking, walking, walking. You have to be constantly monitored when you're um a v back and they had wireless monitors, so that was good. Um, just trying to do everything I could. My doula was doing acupressure, doing um essential oils, I was doing squatting and all kinds of stuff and um, they say that it usually comes like an hour to diet, dilate each level, so to get to a four would have been maybe four hours and they check you. But, um, that was not happening. I, I think they find, I think I think I got inserted around nine and then, um, you don't have those nodes, right?
Speaker 3:I don't okay, I think I got inserted around 9 am and then I think they took it out like Almost 12 hours later and usually.
Speaker 2:Usually a bulb is about 12 hours.
Speaker 3:Okay, they had told me like four hours, like well, if if the body responds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the bulb may come out on its own before 12, but they like give it a good 12 hours Okay and I feel like I I feel like they had to pull it out, like I don't feel like it fell out, I feel like it didn't hurt as much as well. And so then the doctor was like, okay, we're gonna break your water. And I was like no, no, no, no, no, we're not gonna break my water because once you break my water, that 24 hour clock starts and I'm gonna have a c-section. And that's like Sometimes, between my last birth and that, that hospital policy had changed to where there was not a clock, a time, a clock, a timer didn't start as long as babies doing well, they didn't care if your water was broken more than 24 hours, as long as you had clear fluid, baby's heartbeat was good and also they let me eat too, which they never let me do before Little side note.
Speaker 3:So they broke my water and um dilated to a six. I can't remember if I ever made it to a seven. I feel like I didn't, but I was at a six clear until like 10 am the next morning how many hours is that From when my water broke I think that was about 12, 10 hours okay, so that's six centimeters for 10 hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with contractions.
Speaker 3:Yes, and the contractions were not productive or hard like I was having to breathe through them and get help, but they were mostly three to five minutes apart. Okay, like super I could sleep in between them. I would need some pressure and help when they were happening, but it hurt way worse when they'd come check to see if I was dilated than any of the contractions is like my body was clearly Not ready to go into labor.
Speaker 2:So how are you feeling hopeful, like wise, with a V back with this encouraging, was it?
Speaker 3:Discouraging. I was still encouraged because there wasn't a timer. I was so worried about that water breaking timer so I was feeling I mean it was very oh, every time they checked me and I was still only at a six. I can't, I can't remember if I got to a seven. I'm sorry, I should have probably looked at my notes before we did this.
Speaker 3:But, there was. It was around I Think 10, 10, 30. I had to go to the bathroom and well, my doula told me I had to go to the bathroom, which I probably should have, but really she wanted to have a chat. She shut the door and she's like they.
Speaker 3:She's like I'm certain they're about to come in and tell you that you need an epidural, because one thing with a V back is that you can't have a high dosage of pitocin because there's risk of a uterine rupture. So they had given me what they called a whiff of pitocin, which was just turned up to two, and they said they couldn't do it any higher with an app without an epidural, because you need to be numb if you have a uterine rupture. It was like this vicious cycle of like I'm stuck and there's nothing more that they can do. We are trying positioning, we were trying lots of different things and so, um. So she just reminded me like our goal here was to get a V back. So she thought it would be a good idea to get an epidural Because, if I quote unquote failed to progress much longer than they would want to, they would have no other option but to do a C-section right move toward to.
Speaker 3:C-section yeah, so. So we came out and, sure enough, we opened the door and that MFM doctor was sitting there. He's like let's have a chat like. It's like she could read his mind or something.
Speaker 2:It's a great for that.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, they can anticipate. So we talked about the reasons why it would be important and so we got the epidural and it was a really hard epidural, like Really hard. The doula tells me now that she thinks it was a rough placement. I think that's the word a hard placement. I didn't know if I had just been, I'd been awake for 36 hours, or If I was disappointed that I was getting the epidural. But I was sobbing like Flying at my doula's shirt, begging her to make him stop, just crying, crying because it's painful, it hurt.
Speaker 3:So bad and he was. And the funny thing is is he'd given me an epidural before. I had had this anesthesiologist before. So I was like this has got to be psychological that I'm feeling all this. But my doula said like no, you are like reacting pretty viscerally to that. So if and he was super calm, got it all in. I sat up and I looked over my sister, the two indetended parents, my brother-in-law and my doula, all sitting there on one other friend who'd had I had. I wanted to surround myself with people who'd had unmedicated verse. I looked up and they were all just crying.
Speaker 3:They're like it was so hard to like watch you get that I was, I'm sure looked so desperate I was just I just remember just crying at her shirt and just begging her to make him stop, and so then I sat up and I was like all puffy, I did. I sat up and laughed and I'm like, well, that was fun, I was over. So they were still all like I'm gonna say this too. So the doctor said he wanted me to sleep for one hour.
Speaker 3:So he said you guys can all, you all leave or you shut up Like one of the two. So everybody but my sister and my brother-in-law left and my sister and I started chatting. I was just trying to like, unpack the idea, come down from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and my brother-in-law was finally like okay, so do I need to?
Speaker 3:kick Melon, your sister, out then, or you guys gonna shut up and let her sleep. So I went to sleep and like 50 minutes and everyone else went to breakfast. I didn't know this, but at breakfast the intended dad was telling everybody I'm pretty sure this is gonna have to be a C-section, so like, let's just like get prepare for that aired and we'll cheer her on and we'll support her like, but he's also the kind of person that probably was secretly hoping it would be a secret. I'll be fine, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, so, um, but then 50 minutes later the resident came in to check me and I saw on her face like her eyes got really big. She's like wait a second, let me just like triple check. And she's like yeah, baby's like You're dilated to attend babies at, I think, plus one station or something. She's like call them right now. So it was like the whole like the movie team came back, the baby's coming, come back now and they'd luckily gone to breakfast just across the street. They were all running back as fast as they could and and uh. When they all got back and we got situated and, by the way, there were so many people in there and the nurses and doctors were so patient because they just knew that I had this team to support me and they weren't kicking anyone out or being me- and also, they brought like five extra people into because, it's a v-back and that's exciting.
Speaker 3:I think it's an extra team, though. Um yeah, and I pushed for I think like five and a half minutes, wow, and it was successful and it was, oh my gosh, it was so great, it was so cool.
Speaker 2:So how long it been, how many years, since you had had a vaginal delivery.
Speaker 3:Like how old my son was born in 2006 and this happened in 2019. So 13 years.
Speaker 2:Wow, okay, cool. So that moment for you is probably pretty remarkable.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it was also very familiar, like when she came out, that wish of I can breathe. Do you know that relief sensation? Yes, like I watched my belly go flat and I was like, and I remember with with my second Donovan, yelling oh my gosh, I can breathe. And I had that same sensation again, oh my gosh, I can breathe again, and and like shoot. And then there's like the whole feel like this needs to be spoken to, because there's like that feels like five minutes before the baby cries, when you're like, oh my gosh, is she alive? Okay, yeah, and so we're all just kind of staring and she was covered in Vernix. I've never seen.
Speaker 2:She was a little early yeah.
Speaker 3:And she was right, on time, right, I mean, we knew she was, but she didn't act like. She was like she had to stay in the hospital two extra days because she had really bad jaundice, like all the telltale signs of a baby that was born too early. But you know your dates, for yeah, I mean we did. It was not like mistaken period math or anything Right, but just proof that, like, the baby knows when the baby is supposed to come.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think too, what we see often in VBACs and everyone has a different goal set around that and the reasons why and the journey to it but sometimes the epidural just like Robin said to you. You know, let's remember, vbac is a goal and sometimes an epidural is the tool to get us there. For some VBACs, not getting an epidural is the key to a VBAC, but sometimes, yeah, and we never know until we're in it how that's going to play out.
Speaker 3:So that's a really good point, because who knows if the epidural let me sleep and relax yeah, that relaxation, or pumping up that pitocin.
Speaker 2:What combination?
Speaker 3:the last two seven centimeters, I love. I need to go back and look at my notes. I'd love to know what they pumped that pitocin up to, but yeah, we'll never know. It's like the chicken or the egg, but it worked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool, yeah, so how was recovery on that? You talked about your difficult recoveries with the two previous C-sections. How was recovery after VBAC?
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, it was so good. I actually did look at my notes for this. I went on a four and a half mile walk eight days after she was born.
Speaker 2:Wow, so physically you're feeling better.
Speaker 3:Yes, Potionally, you're feeling better. Oh, that was I was doing better, except when I again when I had to, because they had me nurse her too and also they had another baby, another child to worry about.
Speaker 2:Right, they're busy.
Speaker 3:She and I in the hospital the whole time. Like mom didn't come back for like three days because we had to stay in longer because of the Billy Rubin, and so it was just she and I. And then when we came back from the hospital, we all went to my parents, including my intended parents and their son, and we all stayed there and I took care of her at night. And they're really good about like that set of intended parents was really good about you hold the baby as much as you want, because we will get her when we leave, right. And so for the first time ever with that baby when she left, it was the pain of like weaning my breast milk again, which is horrifying. But also for the first time ever I wondered does she miss me? Because I had been, her had more time together.
Speaker 3:For seven days straight.
Speaker 2:Right, and so that was that change. Goodbye for you.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, it was really. It was really really sad.
Speaker 2:And in a way that you appreciate now, or in a way you regret.
Speaker 3:I don't regret spending that much time with her, but I also don't appreciate it. It was hard. I appreciate spending that much time with her, the goodbye She'd been your little buddy for like nine months. Yeah, it just wouldn't have been easy. And of course she adjusted well. Like her genetics were linked to her mom and dad and so she got to her family and yes, yes. So it was all just my brain being like oh, she probably is, like I don't smell anything familiar.
Speaker 2:So, if so, you have this coming up again. We all get into this story right now, but with that in mind, knowing having spent a lot of time with the baby, afterwards, that time you have this coming up again, and I know there's a different plan for that. But if it was all your choice, would you choose to spend more or less time with the baby?
Speaker 3:I would still choose to spend time with the baby as much as they let me. This one's a little different, though, because this couple's local.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's easier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think they would let me visit as much as I want to. That's true, so it is a little tricky.
Speaker 2:But even though it's difficult, it's worth it.
Speaker 3:Exactly, right. Nothing, yeah, that's such a good way of putting it Cool. So we're going for VBAC number two and we're feeling really I've done even more preparation than last time.
Speaker 2:And it's been what? Five years, four and a half, four and a half since your last successful VBAC.
Speaker 3:Yes, and these parents are super involved. You just taught us a childbirth education class. They want to be there every step of the way, like supporting me and counter pressures. And the last couple they didn't One because he just wanted to sleep and two the mom it was too hard to watch me be in pain.
Speaker 2:She couldn't, and it's a different way, right? Everyone has a different way to approach it, and there's no wrong ways, it's just all the different ways.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So this will be fun to have a good team and we're at a new hospital and I'm just really excited, which is very supportive.
Speaker 2:So we're preparing for a second VBAC, which is pretty exciting. So we'll have maybe we'll have you back and hear that story Once it happens. I mean it's coming up in just a few weeks.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness, I know right Angel.
Speaker 2:As we wrap up, what are tips for our listeners on VBACs? Like, if somebody's considering a VBAC, striving for a VBAC, what advice would you give them? Top three things that you would suggest.
Speaker 3:Top three things supportive partner and informed partner, educated partner, supportive provider and supportive hospital. Cool, because just because you have a supportive provider does not mean they have to follow the hospital standards and the hospital rules, and so you have to make sure that the place that you're delivering at is supportive as well. Yeah, absolutely. I know those are really basic, but I think that's like huge. And I also on a little fourth one prepare, prepare Almost.
Speaker 3:Physically and physically Like there's so many things you can do to be like. You need to be prepared for a marathon Like, which is why I've been working out a lot and doing like it's. You can't just lay around for nine months and then and expect to trip it to a VBAC. You can, you could, but you feel, I think there's just something about put it if you're prepared, then you'll be ready, and then we'll be very very cool and I think that's so important.
Speaker 2:Support and I always talk about people, place and policy. The people around you need to be supportive, so that's like professionals, personal support, people yeah, the team that you assemble place, you're right. Hospitals every hospital has a little different culture around it, different climate, if you will, and how they support whatever it is, whatever aspect we're looking at. That runs from VBACs to vaginal deliveries to or unmedicated deliveries, to postpartum, to breastfeeding support. There's so many different components of place. And then policy. There are a lot of policies, and so you've been in some categories for a lot of various reasons that have unique policy around them. So if you've had to navigate some very interesting journeys and everyone's story is unique, right, every single story of every pregnancy and birth journey unfolds in its own unique way. So I love that prepare in any pregnancy and delivery journey. Make sure you do the preparation so cool, it's empowering.
Speaker 3:It really is Knowledge is power right, absolutely right.
Speaker 2:I hate saying that, but it's true. It's true. And when it gives you options, when you know what they are, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when someone says you have to do this, you can say no, I don't, because I know we can also do this.
Speaker 2:Right, right. If you don't know, you don't know what you don't know, absolutely so do you.
Speaker 3:And then, if you don't want to prepare, then hire a doula, because they know and they will advocate for you and they will tell you your options, absolutely, and help guide you through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Cool, awesome. Well, thank you for sharing both your C-section stories and your successful VBAC and hopefully have another story VBAC story to share soon. And good luck to you in coming weeks. We absolutely will, thank you. We're excited for this another surrogacy journey for you and the family that you are serving. So thank you so much for being here. We want to close this podcast episode with great thanks to Angela Heyman for her willingness to share her stories and so much of her life to help families, other families, and we hope to see you next time. We will finish up. This is Angie Rozier at the Ordinary Dulles podcast. Please go on, do something kind for someone else today and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Ordinary Dulles podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning. Episode credits will be in the show notes Tune in next time as we continue to explore the many aspects of giving birth.