Every new parent knows the struggle of navigating those sleep-deprived nights with a newborn. That's where Angela Haymond steps in, a postpartum night doula with a wealth of tips and tales to share. From co-sleeping and nursing to sleep training and setting routines, Angela and her team provide a lifeline for exhausted parents, offering reassurance that there's light at the end of the sleepless tunnel.
When it comes to raising a child, there's no one-size-fits-all manual. This episode is packed with candid stories and advice that emphasize the importance of tuning into your instincts and finding joy in the journey of parenthood.
Lastly, we tackle the overwhelming world of parenting methodologies and the diversity of family dynamics. Angela and I advocate for a tailored support system that respects individual needs and circumstances, discussing how such support could play a pivotal role in alleviating postpartum depression. We dream up an ideal model of assistance that could adapt to different budgets and schedules while prioritizing the health and happiness of both baby and parents. Join us on this journey of discovery and affirmation, where the wisdom of hands-on experience meets the tender touch of postpartum care.
Visit our website, here: https://birthlearning.com/
Follow us on Facebook at Birth Learning
Follow us on Instagram at @birthlearning
Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Every new parent knows the struggle of navigating those sleep-deprived nights with a newborn. That's where Angela Haymond steps in, a postpartum night doula with a wealth of tips and tales to share. From co-sleeping and nursing to sleep training and setting routines, Angela and her team provide a lifeline for exhausted parents, offering reassurance that there's light at the end of the sleepless tunnel.
When it comes to raising a child, there's no one-size-fits-all manual. This episode is packed with candid stories and advice that emphasize the importance of tuning into your instincts and finding joy in the journey of parenthood.
Lastly, we tackle the overwhelming world of parenting methodologies and the diversity of family dynamics. Angela and I advocate for a tailored support system that respects individual needs and circumstances, discussing how such support could play a pivotal role in alleviating postpartum depression. We dream up an ideal model of assistance that could adapt to different budgets and schedules while prioritizing the health and happiness of both baby and parents. Join us on this journey of discovery and affirmation, where the wisdom of hands-on experience meets the tender touch of postpartum care.
Visit our website, here: https://birthlearning.com/
Follow us on Facebook at Birth Learning
Follow us on Instagram at @birthlearning
Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Welcome to the Ordinary Dula Podcast with Angie Rozier, hosted by Birth Learning, where we help prepare folks for labor and birth with expertise coming from 20 years of experience in a busy Dula practice helping thousands of people prepare for labor, providing essential knowledge and tools for positive and empowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Ordinary Dula Podcast. My name is Angie Rozier, your host, and we are sponsored by Birth Learning. Today's podcast we have a special guest and a special topic too. There's a lot of preparation folks do for the day that they have a baby and the labor process and birth procedures, but then we have all these days, weeks and months that we have the baby in our life. So we're going to talk about preparation for postpartum and what people can do to kind of transition that and specifically the nighttime. So we have with us today Angela Hayman. She is a nighttime, a postpartum Dula, specifically focused on nighttime care of babies for families. So, angela, I'll let you introduce yourself a little bit. We've had her on the podcast before. She has pretty incredible stories, but we're going to kind of focus on her current career, or a piece of it anyway, and she's going to introduce herself to us a little bit about her role as a postpartum Dula. So, angela go for it.
Speaker 3:My name is Angela Hayman. Like Angie said, I am a postpartum night Dula. I have been doing this for nine and a half almost 10 years. I actually started with Angie's group and then, in 2017, branched out and started my own business called the Good Night Nanny. And then I since then have I have six ladies working for me six, six and a half, because Angie helps out once a month to help out with me and, oh my gosh, it's just my passion. I cannot believe how much I love helping people take care of their babies and help teaching them how to have them sleep and just normal infant behavior. I call it my dream job that I never knew I wanted.
Speaker 2:Very cool, Awesome. So tell me some basics of what a postpartum night Dula. We have day and postpartum day help and postpartum night help and this we're going to focus on the nighttime. So tell me kind of basically, what does a postpartum night Dula? If somebody was having someone come to their home at night and help them, what can they expect?
Speaker 3:I can speak to my group and what we do. I think everyone has different little tweaks, but our I always say that we are parent led support. So those mom and dad made that baby. They get to choose how. They get to choose what method they want at night, whether it's co sleeping, nursing, pumping formula. We're there to support them and then offer little light, if we can see it, maybe it's going in a direction that might not end. Well, we can be like oh, how about this? And we have this question and help them with the tips that they need to have.
Speaker 3:Ultimately, a baby that sleeps through the night, like that's. Our goal is like give mom and dad and baby the most sleep they can possibly get, because they've been through a lot and it takes sleep to recover. That's I always say if you're not sleeping, you're not recovering. So we go to the house of the families and we take care of the baby throughout the night and hoping that the things that we do will feed into the nights that we're not there, because rarely do people have us come seven nights a week, and so we're hoping to teach the baby and the parents habits on the nights we're not there. They're getting just as much sleep as they did when the nights we are there.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I know, like babies sleeping through the night, that's dreamy sounding. How realistic is that? Like what? We don't expect that on day one or day two or week two or week three? Have you seen a general pattern? And I know a lot of factors come into this, like with breastfeeding especially. Sometimes, you know, if we have babies who sleep all the way through the night, that can impact milk supply for those who are breastfeeding. So tell us a little bit about a timeframe when people can realistically expect the baby to sleep through the night, and through the night might not mean a solid eight hours. Yeah, it's subjective, right, but tell us about timeframes.
Speaker 3:Gosh, I think that there's so many variables that go into it, because sometimes it's about the goals of the parents and how often, like because some parents are okay, like letting the baby sleep as long as they want, and then just when they wake up we feed them, and some are, like I need to nurse every three hours, especially while I'm establishing my milk supply, but then I think a lot is the baby's personality, like I, we have babies that are 12 to 16 weeks old that are still waking up every three hours, and then this year alone I've had two babies who are sleeping truly through the night by three weeks old. Wow.
Speaker 3:We're talking like 10pm to 6am through the night, or they breastfed, babies Breastfed. Both of them were breastfed babies and milk supply was okay. Yeah, the mom would have to wake up once in the night to pump, sometimes twice. Just we call I call it their boob alarm. When your boob alarm goes off, then you wake up and pump, and so they were still keeping their milk supply up, but also not disrupting the habit that the baby had of sleeping for the night and getting like we're just like forming habits and trying to make them go, but like overall I would say 16 weeks is usually the earliest that you can
Speaker 3:expect that and I also do cried out sleep training, which I know can be controversial and that's okay because some people are okay with it, some people aren't. But I will not do that before 16 weeks because of object permanence and babies just needing that love and attention and, honestly, the nourishment Right. Like we said, every baby has a different personality and different needs and so I would say, don't be worried if your baby's not sleeping through the night before 16 weeks, and even then sometimes it takes longer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some babies that are closer to a year, yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:It really does. There's things that you can do to help encourage it, but also sometimes parents are fine with it. They're like they're babies at night and it just depends on what works for your family. There's no wrong way to do it.
Speaker 2:So you don't go in with a specific recipe for every family you love the parent led. What I think is amazing in doing postpartum work and it's really never failed. As you go in and the parents whatever they say is right Like they're gonna say, okay, the baby does this and this, like they'll kind of tell you what to expect and they nail it so they know their babies and they're just looking for that extra support. Sometimes we work with first time parents, right. So tell me about working with first time parents and how you might guide them through some tips. What are some tips to look for healthy sleep behaviors for babies and for parents? Because sometimes, even when we have a good sleep or a baby, parents aren't able to get good rest. So how do you get that in the first time parents?
Speaker 3:Okay, so I, I, we do something on my team called sleep queuing that helps teach babies the habits that they need to be able to sleep longer and to teach themselves that they can sleep longer. And I'm going to say this with the caveat that milk supply has been established, that so this is not like on. Well, some of them are on day one, but there's like those first two weeks can be a little bit different, right?
Speaker 1:Then next week after that.
Speaker 3:So I'll just talk about all of this as if milk supply has been established, baby's a good nurse or a good bottle feeder and they're good to go. So the first thing we do is turn off all lights. There's no light on in the room. I really encourage a white noise machine of some kind that is on the same noise every night. These love routines. They love routines so much so that some I'll even tell parents put your baby in the same swaddle every single night, in a different swaddle than they nap in, because they recognize that as a cue. Oh, this is the time when I'm going to sleep longer than I usually sleep. Also, I think we need to give babies more credit than we do. Sometimes, especially as a first time parent, you hear the baby make the tiniest little noise and you run up and run over and either pick them up or put their binky in, or they're making a noise. So something needs to be done.
Speaker 3:We always say that we let the baby try to self soothe. It's hard to say how much time, because that again plays into baby's personality. It could be anywhere from 30 seconds to 10 minutes. It is completely normal for a baby to be grunting and making noise as well while they're sleeping. That does not mean that they're awake or that they're hungry. You know that point. When they're like okay, this is getting inconsolable and they need some kind of intervention.
Speaker 3:I think that oftentimes you're very surprised by how well your baby can go back to sleep. Another thing we do is a super tight swaddle just to combat that moral reflex where they're like jerking and waking themselves up. If baby cannot self soothe after whatever amount we'll say it's like one minute and baby is obviously crying and unable to self soothe, at that point we put their pacifier in their mouth, if they have one, and we'll try that like a few times. If it's clear that the pacifier is not soothing them, then at that point we'll pick them up, put the pacifier in their mouth and do a gentle bum pat. I like to steer away from like bouncing on the yoga ball and rocking, heavy rocking, because every variable you introduce to a baby they start to expect it.
Speaker 3:And so if you're just doing a gentle, bum pat yeah, exactly, if you're doing a gentle bum pat, then they're like oh, that's my cue to go back to sleep, and I recommend, do that at bedtime as well.
Speaker 3:Like don't do huge bouncing and huge rocking, just gentle bum pat. These are all things that are babies like. Oh, when mom or dad does that, that means it's time for me to go back to sleep and then, if that doesn't work, then baby's truly hungry and it's time to feed the baby. But I also say after again milk supply is established, baby's a good latch or a good eater that you never wake a sleeping baby unless there's a reason that the pediatrician has told you. Because if you teach, if you wake a sleeping baby, then you're teaching them to wake up rather than teaching them to sleep. And again, this is all based on like nighttime and trying to establish those routines.
Speaker 2:Right, right. I love that and I've often found in my work my postpartum night work specifically same thing a rhythmic padding. I think that rhythm pat their back, pat their bum, like yep, that helps them to go back to sleep. Very cool. What a next question. So what are a lot of parents? What do you think they value most from your services, like what seems to be? What do they enjoy the most?
Speaker 3:I would say, by and large, the biggest feedback I get is they all say it in different ways, but the way I would say it is that they get to sleep with both ears shut.
Speaker 1:They don't, they don't they can calm your open.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they turn off their monitor. They don't have to listen, they? I think, angie, you're the one that told me they pay for your trust.
Speaker 2:Right, it's a huge part of it.
Speaker 3:So I so, like we have, for example, I'm working with a mom right now. It's one of the babies that started sleeping through the week at three, sleeping through the night at three weeks. She sleeps from 9pm to 9am every night, even when we're not there, but she still has us come twice a week because she has a really intense job that requires a lot of concentration and focus and she has four kids under five years old, and so she's like those two nights. Just let me get the deepest, most restorative sleep that I can get.
Speaker 3:Yeah, even though the baby's sleeping through the night, so I would say that's the biggest one is they can just sleep with both ears shut.
Speaker 2:Just confidently fall asleep, okay, and then tell me too, for new parents and I've been in this situation before as a postpartum doula I think it's really tricky, hopefully, you know, postpartum doulas are kind of on the same page about this.
Speaker 2:Like we don't tell people how to parent, right, we're not going in and saying you should do this, you should do that. So how do you go about guiding folks? Like sometimes and we have some folks who are very understandably so, especially first-time parents who are very they're unfamiliar with newborn life, right, like what that sounds like, smells like, feels like there's lots of new sounds, and they're worried about this tiny little baby. So how do you guide them into understanding normals in the gentlest ways? Because I think we always want to leave parents empowered, right, and and and I mean we're going to leave, right, we leave their homes, postpartum doulas, we work ourselves out of a job, like we don't. We've never stayed until a baby's 18 years old, right, it's just that first little bit. So how, what are some ways to guide parents to be self-sufficient in this and confident, especially those new parents who are nervous about some things?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good point. I always say that I'm always trying to get laid off, yeah.
Speaker 2:Trying to get, trying to lose my job?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm always trying to lose my job, gosh, I would say, first and foremost, just verbally, building their confidence telling them you have great instincts, you're doing the right thing, that was the perfect thing to do.
Speaker 3:Like just even tiny little aspects of of the parenting world. I think that, like you just go into it so Build from there. Like, yeah, as a, as a, as a, especially a first time parent, you're like I have no idea what I'm doing, but if someone who you've hired as a professional is complimenting you and telling you you're doing a great job, then you're going to start trusting your instincts even more.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 3:But then I think, just like we'll say parents like, oh yeah, I'm waking the baby up every three hours to eat because I read in a book that that's what I should do. In there, eight weeks old, I would say, oh, I can tell that you really care about your baby and that it's important to you that they get food. How important is it to you that you sleep through the night, like because it's five hours.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like a lot of my parents will say I'm is this wrong? And like, okay, I'll give an example. I walked into a house and dad was on the yoga ball and he's like I've been bouncing this baby on this yoga ball for two hours and I said, do you like to do that? And he's like no happy with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So usually if they ask something, I'll be like do you like how it's going? And if they say yes, then it's none of my business, right, my business after that. If they say no, then I'll give them suggestions of ways to change it. So to me, an eight to 12 week old that's still waking up every three hours because you're waking them up, to me I want to know like is that something you like to do? Because this is something that you feel like you have to do, because some people love that nighttime cuddles with their baby.
Speaker 2:It's quiet, nobody else is around. That's special time for them.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So if they tell me that and if they say, yes, I love to do, I'm like great, it sounds like you're doing a great job. And they're like no, I'm so exhausted, why do I have to wake them up every three hours?
Speaker 3:And I'll be like you don't like in this age, they're good yeah they're old enough now that they can sleep longer, just like I really think that that's like the way that I get into their good graces and it doesn't make it feel like I'm asking. Making them do certain things is just saying are you okay with this? And their answer will drive my advice. Perfect If they're okay with it, then it really is none of my business.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I support that.
Speaker 2:And I find a lot of times saying my, I feel bad on this. I sometimes I'll come in and get a baby to sleep better than it ever has or put the diaper on so simple as putting the diaper. Like some folks new parents sometimes they're not snugging up those snap, you know like diapers fall off.
Speaker 3:How did you change that diaper in 20 seconds? It takes only one wipe minutes to do it. Yeah, yes and.
Speaker 2:I think again you're building their confidence is important, like well, I have done this thousands of times. You know you guys will get here. You know, give it to three more weeks, you'll be expert as well. So I love that and empowering them because we can't, we're not going to be there all the time.
Speaker 3:But that's a really good point because sometimes, oftentimes, baby sleeps much better for me than they ever do for their parents.
Speaker 2:Likewise, what am I?
Speaker 3:doing wrong.
Speaker 2:How come Right Get that all the time?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm there like and actually I try to preemptively let them know that, just so you know there's a good chance the baby's going to sleep better for me than for you, and the reason for that is because they don't care about me. I call it sexy indifference.
Speaker 3:I go over to this house and I'm like I don't care if you sleep through the night, like you can do whatever you want. But parents are so desperate. The baby I want it so bad. That desperation. I know that sounds so dumb. I call babies tiny velociraptors, like they're just so smart. They know what they're doing. There is this one dad who's he like FaceTime. I gave him permission FaceTime you during the night because when I was there he was sleeping eight hours a night. When I wasn't, he was waking up every two hours. And so the dad FaceTime and said this is what he's doing. Is this the kind of? I'm like, yeah, that's the kind of crying where he needs to get up, like he's definitely sad. I said when I am there I actually sleep him with his head on the other side of the crib.
Speaker 2:Why don't you try something simple?
Speaker 3:And he dude started sleeping through the night eight hours again, just like it. They are so set on routine that even the tiniest little tweak that baby's like okay, now this feels normal again I can.
Speaker 2:So it's just kind of silly, I think. Another thing with new parents especially who may be nervous as a postpartum doula we know babies make sounds, right, they grunt, they and they're going to tweak. Yeah, they'll cry out and they. They have erratic breathing, where they'll be really shallow and fast and then it slows down so that I think worries a lot of parents. Yeah, kicking and kicking wakes them up and there's, and so I think a lot of times we understand that's normal, where they might sleep better for us in that or we sleep better for them. I guess, like we can rest through grunts where the parents might be like, oh my gosh, like what's, what's going on, are they okay? So just understanding normals, right? Just?
Speaker 3:helping. Yeah, just normal infant behavior. We know, oh, that baby's grunting. I don't need to walk like they're grunting, which means they're breathing, so I don't need to go check on them.
Speaker 2:Right Grunting is great yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah Cool, it's so true.
Speaker 2:And I actually I think we could do a whole other episode about this specifically, so I'm not going to get into it too much. But yeah, I'm not even gonna get into it, but I'd love to do another episode.
Speaker 3:I can't wait to hear what it is.
Speaker 2:Another topic that gets a little, just like you had mentioned. It gets a little political sometimes. So we'll touch on that. But but I think a lot of parents they like yeah, I have read this book, I'm going to do this method, and I think I want to hear you chime in as well. Not every method that we read about or want to do might work for the baby that we end up with, right? Oh my gosh that's so true.
Speaker 3:I actually just was texting someone about this this morning. When parents text me or call me and say what book should I read, I say read no books read your baby your books.
Speaker 3:Do not over research it, because one book is going to tell you the opposite of the other book. Trust your instincts and trust your intuition. The baby will tell you what the baby wants. And I just think that that's so important, because if you read a whole bunch of books, you're going to get really confusing advice and then also you're going to feel like a bad parent if it doesn't work. Your baby doesn't work to the book. Yeah, because not only is your baby not going to be like the babies in that book, but then your second baby is going to be different than your first baby. You're constantly just I have been working on this like sleep queuing method for 10 years and I have learned everything I've learned from the babies. You didn't read a book either.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:I have never read a parenting book, ever, which I don't know. If people think that makes me feel unqualified, you got. I have based on the trenches experience, parents feedback, but mostly babies feedback baby is me what? And then, and then you go to a new home and you tell those parents this is what the baby taught me last night. Maybe this will work for you.
Speaker 2:Right, yep, and you share. I think it's there. Other people have found this to be successful, or some people will choose to do this, and so I think, offering that you know I always do this or you should do that, but here's what you could try. Other people sound success here. I think that's very gentle way to and a good way, right, let them discover what works for them.
Speaker 3:And, I will admit, even though every baby is different, I do have like a baseline of like here's what works.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. There's patterns, yeah.
Speaker 3:Then sometimes you have to tweak it a little bit, like that baby that needed to be a certain place in the crib, like yeah, I would have never thought of that before, right.
Speaker 2:You learned a new thing from a baby.
Speaker 3:I mean anything you do you start with like your base knowledge and then you have to tweak it and adjust depending on the Expand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. A couple other things postpartum night work. I know you have a thriving business doing that. If we could provide this would be amazing, and I wish we could. This service for all people. Right, this is an expensive, it can be a very expensive service. Some folks get a year long contract, some do 12 weeks, some do three nights, like there's lots of different ways to do this. That all come with a price, right, but let's take money out of it, angela. And if you could, across the board, provide some kind of postpartum night support for people, what would be kind of high level best case scenario, like, if we like give me a little rundown of a schedule if you could do this, for if this was a paid service for all people could afford it, what would be the best? What? It's hard to say because there's so many different situations, but if you could provide for like?
Speaker 3:what would the parents to do?
Speaker 2:No, like if we could have a postpartum do come what would be the best for everyone.
Speaker 2:Like insurance, covered it or something Right right right If it was available to all people, what, what would be? Not everyone's going to get a year like that's not necessary. You know, and I think in my experience too, like most babies are pretty good at night. Very rarely do I have a cally, a truly cally, tough baby and again, we're probably doing the right things to help them sleep to the night. But if we could prescribe like all right, if every family could have three nights that first week being home, or one night a week for a month, like, tell me, and a lot of us just learning, right, you learn from the postpartum do and then implement the things on your own. But what would be a good cadence for if we could provide this for all people?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, I want to speak to the fact that there are actually studies that show that postpartum night work helps with postpartum depression. Absolutely and avoiding it, and so that is huge to me. I'm going to base your question on a lot of the questions I get from new people who are interviewing me, like what's, what do most of your people do?
Speaker 3:That's what they say, but most of your people do and I and that is an impossible question because it's so different it budgets a thing like I've had clients that do one night a week for six months and they're just like. They'll text me and be like it's 18 hours till you're coming. I can't, that's their golden night. And then some people who don't have those financial restrictions, who do seven nights a week for six months and I would say, like, speaking to cadence, I would say three nights a week for 16 weeks, eight hours a night. So that'd be golden service for folks. Okay, because I think that would give us enough time, because if we're only there one night a week, that's hard for us to establish habits for the baby, because you're just there once and then the parents are there the other six nights.
Speaker 1:You're on a little bit of their habits.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Three nights a week. We can like help the baby realize okay, if I make a noise, someone's not going to come running and I can I actually have the power to soothe myself back to sleep. Or I don't need to eat every three hours, I can eat every five hours. And the reason I say 16 weeks is because 16 weeks and again this is just speaking to my business that's the point where they're old enough that you can do some sleep training if you want to.
Speaker 2:And a lot of things happen develop money, like. Looking from an IBCLC perspective, babies gain ideally about an ounce a day until they're 16 weeks. Oh really. That weight gain shifts to three to four ounces a week, so it almost cuts in half. So there is some just development, only things at 16 weeks. That all fit this.
Speaker 3:For nutrition behavior, all of the above.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and 16 weeks, that's when the moral reflex starts to go away, that's fading, and so Startling themselves away.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean it can last up to six months for some babies, but it's. There are a lot of changes at 16 weeks that either make they start sleeping longer on their own or they have abilities for you to train them to sleep on their own in a way that's not cruel.
Speaker 2:Yep, absolutely Perfect, all right. Another question along these lines, because most people can't afford these services and you've touched on a little bit. But if you were to kind of give a recipe of success for people who can't afford postpartum doula support or night help which is a lot of people what can they work on in those first few days and weeks to get to that point on their own a little more quickly?
Speaker 3:I actually do have a recipe, because sometimes people like will interview me and they're like oh, it's a little too much. Or people who I'm working for twice a week. Or like tell me what you're doing On the nights you're there so that I can replicate it. Yeah, and again, this is like, like I said, every baby is different. It's kind of a baseline of things that are helpful, but, and again, my focus is all toward helping baby sleep through the night because, I want mom and dad and baby to sleep, and so this is what I base that on.
Speaker 3:Routine just can't be emphasized enough the same swaddle every night, the same white noise machine, the lights off, the same pacifier.
Speaker 2:And not everyone uses a password, right?
Speaker 3:No, no, yeah, not everyone uses a password, so whatever soothing tool that is the best chosen. Yeah, bedtime is a hard thing to nail down. When that's a newborn, you're like it was bedtime at six or at midnight.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Whenever you choose bedtime to be, I always recommend doing three things before that bedtime and the exact same three things every night. Not only read a story, but read the same story every night. Not only sing a song, but sing the same song every night. Those, if you do routine things that are very exact, the baby starts to recognize oh, we're doing these things, and so this means this is the time I'm gonna sleep longer, because when they're babies they're just sleeping all the time.
Speaker 2:They even sleep.
Speaker 3:that's all they do, yeah but if you only read that story, only sing that song, only do that bath, only do that walk, like with rigid routine, the baby's gonna start to recognize it's not gonna happen in two nights, Right, it might not even happen in a week, but you'll start to notice a difference and it will feel silly at the beginning because the baby's just like yeah, like I don't hear any of the words you're saying.
Speaker 2:I don't care about stories.
Speaker 3:But, again high-nevalosiraptors. They're soaking it in, they're figuring it out. And another thing I recommend is, before quote unquote bedtime is allowing the baby to cluster feed as much as they want whether it's the bottle or the bath or the breast. It's like the same kind of mental game as carb loading before a marathon. That way, you know, when you lay them down, pretend they'd been cluster feeding for three hours, from seven to 10, you lay them down at 10 and they start crying at midnight. You know they're not hungry.
Speaker 3:Like you can know that for a surety. I mean, like, unless there's like a medical thing, right right, but we can put off the next feeding for a while. Yes, you're like, okay, they're crying, so, but they're definitely not hungry. So let's figure out if they just need a self-soothe, if I need to go like re-swaddle them, cause they broke out of their swaddle, like there's other ways to take care of it, or maybe they just need the pass for my oldest son. He needed the pacifier. Like when he was old enough to grab it on his own, I'd throw like six of them in the crib, just so that Find one, he could find it.
Speaker 3:Luckily, my second one was a thumbsucker, so that made it so much easier.
Speaker 2:I've always had it.
Speaker 3:Yeah and then sorry. I'm just looking at my notes because I just want to make sure to say all the things.
Speaker 2:You talked about dark and white noise, which is right, a routine.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I just, and also like a lot of postpartum doulas. If you can't afford to hire them to come to your house will coach you for free. Right and teach you and give you I will and, oops, I just said my mic. I will do it and my and or my ladies will. That work in my team and it's something I'm happy to do like because of figuring things out.
Speaker 2:Helping people yeah.
Speaker 3:And I appreciate that it's an expensive service and that it's a luxury and that it's not fair that everybody can't afford it and it should be something that everybody can use because, again, postpartum depression alone is huge. So maybe just ask someone if they'll coach you. They might charge you, but it would be less, and so that could be a way to do it. And another thing I don't again can only speak to my experience is if they can't afford to have you come, they will almost always afford to have me come to do sleep training at 16 weeks.
Speaker 1:Like you can do.
Speaker 3:We can do anything for four months. We can hear this out. We can power through, Turn that corner and yes. Yes, and again, those are people who are okay with like crying it out and that type of a thing. But I just think, like that's the advice I would give make things as routine as possible. And if those things aren't working, then ask a postpartum doula if they'll coach you and what that would look like.
Speaker 2:Cool. And sometimes that would be one night right. You may pay for one night and watch what happens kind of see it Cool. So I'm jotting my own notes down here too, which is cool because I'm coming up with the other episode ideas. Oh, I love it.
Speaker 3:It's gonna be the Angie and Angela podcast.
Speaker 2:Let's do it. I love it. You're a great guest and you kind of touched on this how it can help with postpartum depression right To minimize postpartum depression and I think and speak to this a little bit. Sleep is a part of that but I also support, as a part of that right and tell me a little bit about the emotional support that walks in the door when a postpartum doula comes. That one of the first postpartum doula jobs I did and I kind of just tripped into it after a birth client and he did a lot of help and it was daytime in the beginning.
Speaker 2:My very first postpartum job was nighttime. That was probably 15 years ago and funny story I'll have to tell in another episode. But I kind of tripped into some daytime work with a client who had a tough birth and was having a hard time adjusting and the dad said to me he's like and I went a few days, it wasn't a long-term thing he said it's like the sun comes up, like the sun just shines bright when you come and we know you're coming tomorrow at 10 am, we can get through this time and it's just so refreshing to have you walk in the door because you're happy, you know what you're doing, which was kind of it's so simple, right, I'm like. But just having that, so to speak a little bit to the emotional support that comes, and really sometimes we talk to these parents for five minutes before they're off to bed. Sometimes you'll sit and have a long conversation about lots of different things. So speak to the emotional support.
Speaker 3:Well, the first thing I think of is that mom I told you about who had texted me and be like 18 hours and 37 minutes.
Speaker 2:Tell you right, I can do it.
Speaker 3:Countdown. Yeah, exactly, she was so excited. But what that made me actually think of is like I'm done having children of my own, but I'm considered a professional or a quote unquote expert in the area. Even if I did have a child of my own at this point I would still hire a postpartum doula just for that emotional support Like that, looking forward and knowing that you have someone that's going to be there for you, that will listen to you either listen to you and let you cry on their shoulder, or we'll take the baby and you can disappear for eight hours and just get the sleep that you want, just knowing. I feel like when you have, when you're postpartum, that a huge part of that feeling and I've taken no classes, this is based on my own experience it's just that you feel like you are the only one doing this.
Speaker 2:You don't leave the house. I sleep.
Speaker 3:You don't want to get your baby sick. You're recovering, you're feeling trapped, you are sleep deprived. You might be medicated because you have pain. Like it's so hard to think clearly and to have someone to come in and tell you that you're doing a good job and to take the baby and let you just like go and sleep you for a minute. Yeah, and it's so true, because sometimes you walk in and they're like here's the baby, see ya, peace out. And sometimes I'm like okay, you have got to go to bed. Yeah, we gotta stop talking.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because like this is missing the whole point of me being here, like you have to go and get some sleep, so, but I think it's important to, as a postpartum doula, to recognize what they need like and give them that. Like you can tell where like I am not on the mood to chat tonight and that's just fine. Or like if they do want to chat a lot, you send them to bed and maybe call them the next day.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 3:I wanted to wrap up or finish up that what we were talking about, but I just think. I think that dad described it perfectly like a ray of sunshine just walking in, like it makes everything better. You know that Help is on the way. Exactly It's-. I I've never had a postpartum doula, so I can only talk about how people have reacted when I walked in the door and, yeah, again, they're just, they're just so grateful, they're just grateful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool. I think likewise, like if I and I did my last baby, we had a postpartum doula come for a couple days and, yeah, and I made a world of difference. So so it can be a benefit, whether it's long term, short term once and you've spoken to the benefits of longer but also for those who can't afford this service and give you, given, some really good tips. I think that this scares people right, like we hear that from our birth clients all the time. Like here's what I'm scared of is being tired, the lack of sleep, and really it's brief, like it fills forever. Long, but 16 weeks generally. You know, some babies it's eight weeks, others it's a little bit longer, but this is a in the big picture of parenthood. This is a brief but challenging time and part of our goal, I think, as postpartum doulas, is to lighten their load a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I guess I would say like never turn down help. You don't have to be on the island. No one's going to think you're weak or a bad mom if they say, can I bring you dinner? And you say, yes, like they're going to be like oh, I wasn't really wanting to bring you dinner. Or like can I just come hold the baby while you shower? Yes, never say no. Never say no. If they're offering it, take a bump on it because, like culturally, that's how we used to be.
Speaker 3:Right, and they're away from that and now it's like in some circles you have a baby, you get meals three nights a week for two to three weeks and then everyone forgets about you. It disappears, yeah, and I just, I just say, if people offer, always say yes, I love that.
Speaker 2:And for a while. Right, Like our society, we get back to quote, unquote normal life way too quickly and we don't allow for that physical, emotional, mental recovery after babies are born, like we should.
Speaker 3:Yes, when I had my first, first baby, I had a neighbor who's like you are not to change out of your pajamas for three weeks.
Speaker 2:I love it, and so I obeyed that.
Speaker 3:And then with my second I, he had to be tested for bilirubin like at a three day appointment after he was discharged from the hospital and I walked out to my car and she came out. She's like screaming at me I'm on your pajamas, getting mad at me for not being in my pajamas. But like I just take any support you can get. Don't feel like you have to pretend to be strong. And even if you feel strong, take the support Right. Still, take it easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I see a lot of people do that Like I'm not pregnant. I feel great. I'm like, yeah, but take it, take care of yourself and let others take care of you as well. So cool, cool, cool, angela. Thank you. Anything else to add as we wrap up?
Speaker 3:No, I think. I think we've covered a lot.
Speaker 2:Thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks. So excited for the amazing work that we get to do for folks, which is, yeah, it's important work. So and hopefully our listeners have, if you know, if they're interested in becoming a postpartum doula or using a postpartum doula, or just want some tips from a pro hopefully we've been able to provide all of those things today on our on our visit. So, angela, thanks again for being here. We will have you back again. We have, I think, so many more things to talk about, but we appreciate your time. Thank you, cool. Well, thanks for joining us today. This is Angie Roger, with the ordinary doula podcast sponsored by birth learning. We hope you have a wonderful day and hope you can do something today that inspires you whether you see something, hear something, have an interaction with somebody else that just inspires you and helps you to feel awesome and amazing because you are. We hope to see you next time and have a great one.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the ordinary doula podcast with Angie Roger, hosted by birth learning. Episode credits will be in the show notes Tune in next time as we continue to explore the many aspects of giving birth.