Ep 22- Transcendence and the Limits of Therapy w Rabbi Avraham Edelstein

What exactly is self-esteem? How is it different than self-image? How do you know if you've got healthy self-esteem or not? What can you about it?

And in what way does Judaism offer a whole deeper dimension into transcendence and self-actualization that you won't find in traditional modalities of therapy?

All this and more with Torah scholar and thinker Rabbi Avraham Edelstein.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Shmoozing. I decided we're going to take a bit of a break from the AI track. We've had, I think, seven episodes in a row on the topic of artificial intelligence. Time to take a bit of a break. I wanted to talk about something a little more human. And I really wanted to get into the issue of self esteem.

So I turned to a mentor, friend, Torah scholar here in Jerusalem, Rabbi Avraham Edelstein. He'll be introduced at the beginning of the episode, because I know he's somebody that has a lot to say on this topic. And we really got into the question of the difference between Self image, self esteem, self confidence, we talked about transcendent, we talked about how therapy, normal traditional therapy, is limited and how much a person can really get away from their self esteem issues.

We talked, interestingly, about why it is that Jews often seem to have more psychological illnesses, sometimes even physical illnesses as a result of psychological issues. And I asked Rab Edelstein to give us a send off with something very [00:01:00] practical that we can actually implement to work on our own self image.

I'm sure you're going to enjoy the 

Speaker: I am pleased to have with us today Rabbi Avram Edelstein joining us. Rabbi Edelstein is the educational director of the Nevaeh College for Women, a native of South Africa. Rabbi Edelstein teaches in many institutions, has over 30 years of experience. He has founded several Jewish organizations. sits on the board of numerous Jewish educational institutions and is in demand as a speaker throughout the Jewish world.

He's the author of his most recent book, The Human Challenge, Being Jewish in the 21st Century. So I know that when I mentioned to you that we can talk about a broad range of topics, because I try to cover anything and everything a Jewish take on things. So you mentioned that you'd really like to get into the topic of Poor self image.

Why would you say that's an important topic for us to, to delve into?

Speaker 2: Self image, self esteem. There, there is a reason why I use the word self image and not self esteem, but is, is [00:02:00] something that insinuates itself into every situation. Every, everything is predicated on the idea that you have a positive self image. And therefore it's, it's a mega theme on which, on which all other actions, activities, perceptions are based.

That's number one. Number two, it's The disease of our generation for various reasons, certainly social media has contributed significantly to to that where external features become very, very stressed at the expense of one's inner value and worth, which is the only thing that'll give you a good sense of self.

And therefore, although it's, it's always been an issue and it's been addressed. Throughout the generations. It's particularly pertinent in our generation. 

Speaker: Okay. So you mentioned there is somewhat of a difference between poor self image and poor self esteem, or I think also it often overlaps with poor self confidence.

Do you have a clear [00:03:00] distinction between these kinds of 

Speaker 2: terms? Well, they're overlapping. They're overlapping concepts, but I use the word self image because images a picture. And what ultimately would. Trying to do is to have a picture of oneself which allows one to, to be oneself and fulfill one's potential and more.

Self esteem is more like a a psychological state. 

Speaker: So you hear often people talk about the do the idea of doing daily affirmations. It's a very common thing. So the idea of, you know, looking in the mirror first thing in the morning and saying, you're awesome. You're going to rock today. You're amazing.

You're on top of the world. You got this. So can a person have too high of a personal self image? In other words, to look at themselves as greater than what they actually are. They're, they're, they're seeing themselves beyond what their skill level or talent level actually is. [00:04:00] 

Speaker 2: Let's let's add two words to the pile.

Humility and an arrogance. Now a person who has good self esteem ordinarily. Would not be aware of it, but they don't walk around puffing themselves up. They're just they're just on they just Naturally feel good about themselves. I don't have to tell themselves that they feel good about themselves And I'm not sure whether it works to tell yourself because that's That's not standing in front of the mirror is not going to give it to you.

That might be a pep talk to be motivated for the day, but I think it's going to cure a problem of, of self image and self esteem. Humility is this, the default state that one should be in. If you have positive self image, if you don't have a positive self image, you should not work on your humility. I'll explain what humility is in a minute because it's just going to make your, you're not going to achieve humility.

Humility. You're just going to [00:05:00] achieve a worse self esteem. Now, the way of differentiating these two is to understand that a humble person does more. I'll explain in a minute. Whereas a person with poor self image does less. And that's a great rule of thumb in Judaism. Any character trait which gets you to do more, in the good sense which allows you to do more goodness, is a positive trait.

You can do it. Anything. Be it sadness, depression, poor self image, which gets, arrogance often, which gets you to do less goodness is a negative, is a negative trait or attribute. So now, a, a, a humble person, the definition of humility is somebody who realizes the gap between himself and others. He can also, he can also realize the gap between himself and ultimate reality, God.

But let's go with the first definition. And [00:06:00] therefore, he feels very motivated to close that gap, to fulfill his potential. He doesn't fulfill his potential with all kinds of self accolades, and I'm the best, and I'm the greatest, and I've, right? He just, he doesn't. He just does his thing. A humble person is not aware that he's humble.

That's a self contradiction. A person who walks around saying, Oh, I'm so humble is arrogant. But he just, he just feels that he's just doing his thing. He's doing what he knows how to do. He might be the CEO of a great company. He might be a great rabbi. He might be somebody and he knows he's the CEO and he knows he's the great rabbi.

It's not a contradiction. If you ask him, why is he the great race is God gave me certain gifts, and I'm just doing what you know what I need to do, and I, this is how I landed up. It's not, it's not something that he feels arrogant about is often the, the real arrogance [00:07:00] and is often doesn't exist today very much and very rare.

Maybe I've met one or two really arrogant people. Most people, most people who display arrogance are compensating for poor self image. 

Speaker: So you're saying the real, the real true definition of arrogance would be seeing a person having a very actual inflated sense of self and just what we normally see people that actually have a lower sense of self and they're using arrogance to try and make themselves feel better, make themselves feel better that more than they actually are.

So one question on this idea, because at one point I'm confused about, you mentioned that you really measure a person's level of arrogance. Self image by how much they produce how much they actually do but couldn't a person do a lot because of poor self image In other words, I don't feel good about myself.

I'm gonna serve people. I'm gonna get people to appreciate me I'm gonna, you know help all the old ladies cross the street. I'm gonna do a lot of good So that I can feel like I'm a good person in other [00:08:00] people's eyes, my goal, it feels to me like I'm still basing my self image on getting people to think I'm good and therefore I'm motivated to do good things, still coming from a bad place.

Speaker 2: That's a very good example because a person with poor self image needs a lot of external validation and that validation never falls him up because you can never fall yourself up from the outside. Only from the inside and therefore you become, you remain as hungry as you were before for that validation.

Now that that need for external confirmation that you're okay, might cause you to do certain types of actions. But it, It doesn't lead to a good trajectory of growth. It doesn't lead to a balanced and fulfilled individual. It leads to [00:09:00] just ad hoc attempts to, to, to gain some kind of approval from, from others together with very often with imposter syndrome.

Right? The feeling that you, you're really faking it. Very often the person is really faking it. They're only doing it for an external reason. So the long term effect of that is that when you feel bad about yourself, you might do some things, but in general, it's demotivating. It's deflating. It saps your energies and, and you have less.

Ability to, to do significant things or even, or even daily little important things. 

Speaker: Well, okay, but I think we'd make a distinction. In other words, everyone has ups and downs in life. We, you know, I failed at a project or something's not going well within a relationship, or I realize I'm not as, I'm not as talented as I thought it was on the basketball court or in whatever area of life.

So, you know, I come back like, oh, that sucks and I'm not so [00:10:00] great at that, or I'm not as good as I thought I was, or things didn't work out, maybe I'm not all talented. At what point does it go from just the normal ups and downs of life to like a condition? At what point do you assess it as a condition?

Boy, I've got poor self image. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, the difference is whether, whether you consider that you didn't do well in something. You failed, you messed up, you're not good at it. As opposed to you are not good. You are a mess, right? You are a failure. 

Speaker: You're judging yourself rather than your behaviors or your, your, your skill level.

Speaker 2: That's correct. 

Speaker: I suck at basketball. I'm, you know, I'm really bad at basketball. You know, I'll give you an example. I'm really bad at time management. I suck at time management. I can say that, and that doesn't mean I have a poor self intimidation. It actually might mean I'm, yes, I really do suck at time management.

I'm actually really bad at it. It doesn't mean I'm a bad [00:11:00] person. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with me. It means here's an area where I just don't have a skill. Right. Correct. Okay. So, so, so going back again, because I think this is where it becomes really, I want to make this practical for people, myself included.

What's the starting point? How do you look at yourself as, how do I make a baseline measurement of myself and say, Hmm, do I have poor self image on a scale of one to 10? What is my self image? What is my self esteem? How do we, how do you actually examine yourself and come up with a realistic, realistic measurement?

Speaker 2: Right. I don't think we have a self image odometer that, you know, gives you an exact measure. And I do think that it's different points in one's life, one can feel overall better or, or less positive about oneself, but Judaism is quite clear that your, your starting point for developing self image has to be the idea that you're made in the image of God [00:12:00] and you have a unique role to play in this world and you're very, very special in the, in a real substantive way.

The one of the commentators says you have to, you have to love God, and just as you have to love God, you have to love yourself, and just as you have to love yourself, you have to know that God loves you and believes in you. And these are all, these are all intertwined. You have to love your neighbor like yourself.

If you don't like yourself, you cannot like your neighbor. So we have to know that it's it's something which You can't clearly separate from other aspects of your trying to become what you need to become. When a, when a child grows up a great educator once said to me, the greatest gift that you can give a child is, is this positive sense of self.

If they have it, then they can take everything else you're giving them and they can translate it into their own action plans. [00:13:00] If they don't, then they're so busy trying to. Trying to fill the deficit of self image that they don't get around to all the other things. That's a real growth stunt. 

Speaker: I would imagine that the real, the key to that is the more a person really loves their kids and the more the kids feel 

Speaker 2: the love of a parent, it's that feeling, I am lovable, I am worthwhile.

Right, 100%. It's unconditional love. It's not, right, it's not I love you if you'll do well in school, and if you don't, I'm not going to. It's not, it's, it's absolutely unconditional love. I, I sat around with my kids once, we had a family meeting with my kids and my wife, and I, I said to them, if one of you would commit murder and you would be sentenced to a life sentence, I said, I wouldn't approve of the action, but I would love you no less.

I'll come visit you every opportunity, you know, I'll bring you cookies, [00:14:00] I'll maintain the relationship. There's not, there is nothing that can come in between me and you. I can be disappointed in your behavior. But the love is unconditional and unbreakable. 

Speaker: You could, you could probably even further.

You could probably go further and say that distinction you made before. In other words, I hate what you did. I'm disgusted with what you did. I'm shocked with it, but I still love you as a person. There's the behavior and there's the individual. 

Speaker 2: Right, right, right. When my, when my daughter was eight years old, she, she got upset with my wife and she said to her, I hate you with all my love.

In other words, in other words, a message to a child should be that that was a message to a parent, which is beautiful and by an eight year old, but the parent must give that message to even when I'm showing anger or this or that. It's never an issue of my loving you. Never. If you don't get there as a child, it's going to take you much [00:15:00] longer.

In general, with other things, whatever you didn't do at the right age, whatever maturational aspect of your life you didn't get when you were supposed to get it, Maybe you have to get it yourself. It's, it's a ratio of about one year to 10 years. In other words, what you could have done in a year when you were 14 will take you 10 years when you're 22 and so on with self image, with self image.

It's, it's going to take longer. It's going to take longer and a person who now is in their adult years and they're dealing with this has to understand process because if they won't understand process, they'll they'll try to do it too fast and and they're just going to fail. And then they're going to be disappointed.

It's going to be a vicious cycle. They have to understand that this is going to be a little, little, little, little building blocks over an extended period of time. 

Speaker: Interesting. [00:16:00] Okay. So back to the original question, if a person wanted to have some sense of, do I have a problem here? Do I have a poor self image?

What would you say are like, what, what are the symptoms that person would look for to see if it's a real issue that needs to be tackled? Now, there's probably a lot of people that are not all that either happy. Or functional in life, and they might look at it as well. I never had a fair chance or people just don't appreciate me, or I just got to try a little harder.

I have to go to a therapist or try a course or read another book instead of realizing. No, the real core of what's holding me back from reaching my potential is just my own stuff. Poor sense of self. How does a person know that that's what's really ticking? Right. 

Speaker 2: So the first sign is, is a much greater need for validation from others.

Secondly, greater difficulty drawing on your own values. It's a corollary of that, whether, whether they have the approval of the broader society or not, the ability to say, this is what I believe in and this is what I'm going to do. [00:17:00] I'm not going to follow the crowd on this. Thirdly, a tendency to blame others for your errors to a, to a greater degree.

And fourthly, which really we all do to some degree. A tendency to inflate and not see realistically that the good things that you have done now that they did studies in one study, they they found that they were 80 percent of CEOs thought they were in the top 20%. Which is a mathematical impossibility we all I'm not accusing CEOs of having good self image.

That's that. But I'm just saying. You know, even the best, most competent, not the best, the most competent and successful of people by certain categories tend to inflate their own actions relative to others. We all do that a little bit, but, but a normal, healthy person will be fairly realistic about who they are and, and, and what they're good and what they're not.[00:18:00] 

A person with poor self image can't afford. That kind of honesty, so they will intend to blame others and therefore they will be prone to having more conflict with other people or to feel more antagonism towards other people. 

Speaker: They feel they're being judged or not appreciated because they don't, because other people aren't reflecting to them the way they're seeing themselves.

But, but one second, I'm a little confused 

Speaker 2: here. Yes, and because, and because the effect Can I just mention this and because the effect of negative judgments by others is, is so much more impactful on them, which, which arouses the part of them that knows it's true, I guess. Perhaps. And yeah, because a part of it is true and because it's, it, it messes them up much more because of the they don't have a positive image to, to accept if nothing else, if nothing else to base 

Speaker: themselves on.

Right. Right. But one second. I can kind of hear this both ways and maybe they're both true, but let's say a person with poor self image who succeeds at [00:19:00] something, but they whatever they got a good mark on a test or they succeeded in some area of life. I could imagine a person with poor self image like you're saying.

really centering on that. Look how awesome I am because I'm good at this or I did this or this is who I am. I can also imagine a person with poor self image, even if they are successful, downplaying it. That was just good luck and it wasn't really me and it was a fluke and that's, that's not who I really am.

Really. I'm not so good at these things. I can imagine poor self image making a person inflate them, inflate their, their talents, let's say, or their successes. And I can also imagine them downplaying their successes and talents. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I, I made. Brief reference to that when I, when I mentioned imposter syndrome, the person to themselves, when they, you know, has a continuous sense that they've, they're faking their way through life.

And therefore, in terms of how they view 

Speaker: others, right? In terms of how they present themselves to others, that's going to be grandstanding those things they're [00:20:00] good at. The CEO saying, yeah, I'm in the top 20%. But you're saying in terms of how they would look at themselves in the mirror, they're going to say, really, I know I'm a loser.

Correct. Okay. So now you mentioned the God factor. I want to get into this because I guess an important question here would be, I'll put it like this. I've heard many psychologists say that self esteem, as you said, is kind of like the, it's the sickness of our generation. Everyone in some sense suffers from self, poor self esteem or poor self image.

A person going to a normal therapist using normal models of therapy. Would that generally have a successful outcome if they're a good therapist, or do you need some dimension of something more spiritual to make it more substantive and more real?

Speaker 2: One thing is for certain, just getting a person to feel better about themselves directly is, is not going to work, which means you're not giving the [00:21:00] person the, the real substantive inter fulfillment that the person needs in order to feel good about themselves. If you just deal with a person on a psychological plane alone and not on a spiritual plane, the person would have every right to maintain their poor self image because there are so much more.

Then just a, a bundle of, of emotions, right? And even cognitive therapy, you can add a bundle of emotions and a bundle of, of cognitive frameworks, perceptions, and paradigm, etc. Right? So, so it is not it is not possible to really feel good about yourself unless you're feeling good about your core.

And your core is spiritual, and your core is good. requires not just self actualization, but self transcendence. It's the ability to somehow feel that [00:22:00] you're becoming more than yourself, right, by attaching yourself to that which is greater than yourself. If you don't feed that core, you're simply trying to take care of the layers around that core, and And it's, it's, it's what I'd call symptomatic treatment rather than 

Speaker: a real solution.

So why would it be then? I think I know the answer to this, but I'm sure you can probably articulate it better than me. Why would it be that there are religious people, Jewish and otherwise, with poor self image and people who would identify themselves as atheists, secular, no God, spiritual dimension of life that actually at least seem to have pretty Strong, authentic, good self image.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I, again, I don't quite know how to tell who does and who does not have, but it's, it's, it's a fair statement. I believe that the, that the observance people [00:23:00] who are like that have leveled off in the, in their growth. They're keeping. Shabbats, they're keeping kosher but they're not growing.

They're not they're not self actualizing and they're not self transcending. They're just, they're just maintaining themselves at that level. And that's, that's not going to be enough. To, to feed the soul 

Speaker: maybe they're focused on observance, but not so much focused on the being religious. In other words, taking, taking the spiritual dimension of their lives seriously.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's spiritual growth, right? You can get it, you can have an isolated, you see, let me, let me take a step back. Bruno Bettelheim asked a very, he was a psychiatrist to like Viktor Frankl that survived the Holocaust, a Jewish. Psychiatrist and Bruno Bettelheim. I'll ask it as a question. He wondered, what is it that allows a person to see their [00:24:00] entire life as one unified whole?

What is it that allows us to not be fragmented and say, well, this moment has nothing to do with the previous moment. Doesn't have anything to do with what I did yesterday and certainly nothing to do with my childhood. So his answer was the only thing I 

Speaker: love that question. It's a beautiful question. 

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah. The, the, and you can tell I'm South African because I said, yeah, not yet. So, so Bruno Bettelheim said that it's only meaning that you can thread through all the different events of your life that can make it one singular unitary life. Yeah. so that the you that is presently here is is a history of your entire life.

And it's not just you in the moment. Okay, very often these new [00:25:00] ideas like mindfulness, right, are, are very, very good, but they, they miss this very, very significant point. So I'm suggesting that that thread of meaning that makes you an integrated person that is the collective experience of your entire life.

It has to, has to be spiritually meaningful in, in whatever way. I'm not, I'm not saying that if Judaism is the only formula to having a positive self image. I do believe Judaism is the formula for many unique things, but I'm not, in this case, I'm not saying that nothing else can provide it. It's, it has to however be something where the person feels I've, I've lived a life worth living.

And I continue to do so and I continue to hope to do so in the future. Let's contrast that with Olympic, Olympic athletes. [00:26:00] There's a, there's a well known phenomena that Olympic athletes after the Olympic Games get depressed. Even the medal winners. Because it's over. There, there is nothing to carry them on.

Through the next experiences and to say that well that that race right is feeding my Sense of feeling good in this moment. There's no connecting thread 

Speaker: of meaning because they've defined their whole life As it's all about getting that metal. So once they've got that metal, there's no more purpose to life, 

Speaker 2: right?

Right, there is whereas a person like let's take Bill Gates. I don't know anything about Bill Gates Bill Gates's sense of self. But I, I was a person who earned a lot of money revolutionized the computer industry. Then Lift became, became a philanthropist, a cutting edge philanthropist, [00:27:00] whereby whereby he continued to live very, very meaningfully in the world.

Okay, so he can, he can, he can say that that is a product of his entire life. Doing now. Okay. So a person if I contrast Bill Gates at his age with I don't want to be insulting to Floridians, but with a Florida retiree, just as a, as an, as an arch type, right? Somebody who's now so to speak. Right.

Okay. Then now, yeah, they, they, all they have to call on are their memories. Okay. Of their past life. They're, they're actually. living in the past. They're not, they're no longer living their life. So if you don't have this element of continuity in your life, meaningful continuity that comes all the way into the present and then extends into your future.

Then you will be eroding your, your self [00:28:00] image, 

Speaker: but I want to, that's, that's why I'm not sure if I'm hearing what you're saying, are you saying, I don't think you're saying this, but I want to clarify a person who worked hard, built a family, succeeded in life in what way made their impact on the world and now decided, listen, I'm 75.

Me and my wife are feeling a little older. We want to go to Florida and just enjoy, enjoy our time, you know, visits from the grandchildren and walks on the beach. And I don't feel the need anymore that I have to make another mark, make another impact, accomplish anything else. I'm happy with what I've done, I've accomplished good things, I'm proud of the choices I've made.

I want to just enjoy this stage of life with my wife, with my kids, with my grandchildren, with my, you know, and just enjoy life. You're not saying that that's the problem, the problem is that the depression that comes with, I'm no longer useful, I'm no longer functional, I need to still accomplish to feel good about myself.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not you're right. I'm to enjoy your family is the most wonderful and [00:29:00] meaningful thing. Okay It's it's it's it's not lacking in meaning. It's the the very contrary to that It's the idea that you you've you've finished with life, you know when we in the Jewish world when we Make a toast. So we say to life.

Alright? Mm-Hmm. We're, we're always, we're always walking to life. We it would be a non-Jewish idea to say, I'm taking a break to get away from it all. So, okay. There, there, there's no Jewish concept of getting away from life. I can change my pace. I can change my environment. I can do something else, which is productive and productive doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be go, go, go.

It doesn't. That's not the definition of being productive. Productive means the internal, right? I have now a week, right? In the Tanya where I can think [00:30:00] about my life, where I can think about, right? Getting in touch with myself, where I can You know, et cetera, et cetera, do all the things I need to do. And that's hugely productive.

We do that once a week on Shabbat.

So would you say, so, so getting away, getting away, right. Getting away from life. Right? Saying I'm finished with life. Now I, I, now I just, you know, live in a retirement home and take, and take cruises. Right? All the time. That's, that's that's why old age depression sets in. Old age depression is a real thing.

Right. There's a much higher percentage of old age people who are depressed than younger people. And it's interesting, I think, 

Speaker: so I think part of it is also that it really is it's part of the, it's part of the, part of the Western culture. In other words, the idea that you define points in life as, you know, You know, I graduated [00:31:00] college.

I got my first job. I made my first million. I've arrived. You know, I reached the head at the top of my my profession. Now I'm 65. I'm retiring. And what does retiring really mean? It means I'm done. So in a world where. You're valued for your economic output. So to say I'm retired almost means like I am kind of useless at this point.

You know, I can't contribute. I'm not, I'm older. I'm burnt out. I'm tired. I don't want to work anymore. I don't need to work anymore, which in an economic sense means I'm now useless. So what am I going to do? I'll go to Florida, go to a retirement home and make, you know, my kids who don't want to have me living with them because I'm a Burton will put me in a retirement home where I'm physically taken care of, and they'll come and visit me.

And what's interesting is I found my experience in the, in the Jewish world, so in the Orthodox world is, The older you are, there's no such thing as retirement. An older rabbi really means a person with a lot of wisdom and a lot of life experience. And they're, they're venerated. They're, they're put on a pedestal.

Those are the people I want to spend time with [00:32:00] because they know more. It's not like, well, now you're 65 years old. So you kind of useless. We're going to put in a shove you away in some retirement home. 

Speaker 2: That's right. Exactly right. If If I were to retire, I have such a long list of meaningful things I want to do with my life.

I want to read so many things, I want to study so many things, I want to write. About so many things. I, I would not have a minute in my day. So I would not for a moment. You wouldn't be looking past the time. 

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. So if you have to summarize it, just what would you say is a uniquely Jewish perspective on self image, self esteem?

Speaker 2: You know, the, it's very interesting because if you'll open up the books on character and self development. They don't talk about self esteem except in [00:33:00] a very limited context. Rabbenu Yona, a great commentator, talks about the fact that when a person has sinned and they want to do tshuva, they want to repent, the first thing they should do is to say, how could I, such a spiritual, beautiful, Holy person, and how could I have done such a thing?

But there's no chapter one of the books on character development, which talk about self esteem. The first person who really, of, of this ilk, this greatness, who talked about it was Rav Shlomo Valby. Well, well into his book. And he lived in the latter part of the 20th century. So that was already when this, when this health image became a problem, but all the other books just, they presume you've got it, you're coming into it and you're opening up the first page of what they have to say with all of this well developed.

So in our day and age where it does need to be focused [00:34:00] on we, we do need. We do need call it a new emphasis. We do need that chapter one. And Torah gets produced by human challenges. I called my book, The Human Challenge, but Torah, Torah, Gets developed by new things that happen in the world that say, well, this hasn't been dealt with.

There are always sources. Let's pull those sources together and let's talk about this now. And I haven't yet seen the great work that that ties all those needs together. All the, call them the new elements of the 21st century Jew into something which is the, Book of introductions to all those other books that 

Speaker: that 

Speaker 2: need to be 

Speaker: talked about.

I find, look, I find often when I, whenever, whenever I want to tackle a subject and I want to see a Jewish perspective, like what is, you know, I want to understand leadership, or I want to [00:35:00] understand anger, I want to understand relationships. So what I will often do is say, okay, so where does Torah really talk about this?

Where do you see leadership in Torah? Well, there's Moshe, right? Half of Torah is about Moshe's leadership. You learn about the Jewish perspective of leadership by learning about Moshe Rabbeinu, about Moses. You learn about relationships by looking at the relationships in Torah. And I think what you're saying is okay.

When I want to understand what Taurus says about self esteem, you're not going to find a story about Abraham, Isaac or Jacob or Rachel or Leah struggling with self esteem because they had a deep sense of connection to God. They understood that they have a spiritual potential. They didn't live in a society that was focused on externals.

They weren't worried about the latest tweet coming out or, or what they're going to post on Instagram about what they had for lunch. So because it's a relatively new phenomenon that didn't really exist, there's no real direct connection. The closest 

Speaker 2: I, I can think the closest I can think of an example, but it's not when God speaks to to Moses at the burning [00:36:00] bush and there's a whole conversation of God saying, you've got to go and speak to far away and say the Jewish people and Moshe Moshe Moses saying no, I can't do this and but I've never seen any commentator who suggested even when at the part of the conversation when when Moses questions whether he is worthy of doing it, they suggested that it was because Moses didn't have a positive self image that was keeping himself.

He he felt that perhaps and and the commentator said is very clearly when he said I'm not worthy. The commentators say, what he was saying was that Aaron is holier than me, he's older than me, he's wiser than me, alright he should be doing it. It wasn't, it wasn't about self doubt. 

Speaker: Yeah, it's interesting.

I think what you do see is Moshe saying, I don't have the right power of speech. I am, I have, I have a heavy tongue. I stutter. I mean, I don't, I [00:37:00] don't feel technically capable, which is fair, 

Speaker 2: correct? None of those things translate into poor self image. So there are earlier sources ethics of our fathers, which comes long after the, the five books of Moses.

And one place is who ever has. A good name has acquired something for himself. That's a mysterious statement. But one of the commentators says that he has to understand and believe in himself in order to have a good name. In other words, if he ever has a good name and believes that, that he has a good name, he believes he is a person worthy of a good name.

But that's about as far back. As as I've been able to go 

Speaker: interesting, so this might be a little controversial. I don't know. Would you say that there's something uniquely Jewish about having problems with self image? In other words, do [00:38:00] Jews in general have more? I find, I don't know. I've never done this.

It seems to me that Jews are are more messed up, more psychotic than your average. I look, I look at a lot of people in the non Jewish world that are just like simple, normal, happy people. Jews are always struggling. Jews are always joining cults. Jews are always involved in some sort of a social turmoil, either on the good side or the bad side.

Maybe it's an intergenerational trauma thing. I do find it's more among Ashkenazi than non Jews. Sfardim actually, maybe it is Holocaust related, but I'm wondering if there's a uniquely maybe it's not a self image thing, but I find that Jews, Jews tended to be psychologists and need psychologists and have all kinds of physical symptoms more than your average bear.

Speaker 2: When the first advertisement for the Shabbat project was produced, it was produced in South Africa Rabbi Warren Goldstein, the chief rabbi of South Africa rolled it out and they had a [00:39:00] comedian. advertising. So he said, he said, do it. In other words, keep this Sabbath as a part of the project. He said, do it, do it because of Jewish guilt.

And if Jewish guilt isn't enough to get you to do it, do it because of your mother in law. So we have a lot of Jewish guilt and we have mother in laws that we try to please. Perhaps that's the source of. Our anxiety, but I think that the answer to that although it is, as you say, controversial is that Jews are, are just never satisfied.

They're always trying to make things better. They're, they, they, they exceptionally optimistic about their ability to be able to do it and hence their responsibility to do it. And and therefore they're, they're joining causes all the time. Jews are definitely represented in, at a much higher [00:40:00] rate than other people, but that idea that I can take responsibility is, is the very opposite of poor self image.

It's, it's an empowered person who does that. 

Speaker: Interesting. But so the Jewish guilt would be, I guess, a person who has that sense of, I know I could be doing more and they're just not. 

Speaker 2: Yes, correct. Correct. So 

Speaker: it means you can almost, when you look at It's interesting. It's like, you know, all the Jewish Nobel prize winners and all the Jews leading social movements.

And on the flip side, all the Jews involved in cults or Jews involved in drugs or Jews involved in, or Jews that Jews that have physical symptoms and, and, and all kinds of diseases, you could say it's really, there are two sides of the same coin. It's a sense of having, I'm part of a culture that tells me I have enormous potential, you know, whether I'm religious or not, but I'm part of a culture that says we're human beings.

We have a special relationship with God. We have these powerful souls. I could be doing [00:41:00] amazing things with life. And if I do something about it, it's going to be a Nobel prize. And if I don't do something about it, it's going to be a feeling of guilt or a feeling of poor self image because I'm not living up to my potential.

Speaker 2: Yes. I might have phrased it differently, but the point is, is one I agree with. Interesting. So. 

Speaker: It's, I mean, it is interesting way to look at it. You can look at it, you can either look at it as a cultural thing, or I think you would say more, there's a reality that I, I know I have a soul, whether I recognize it as a soul or not.

I know there's this inner yearning I have for greatness, for doing something powerful with my life and in the world around me, and it's a question of how I act, and it's, as you said before, the idea of finding what's that unique thing that I'm able to do, what's my unique contribution or my unique sense of power that I can really express in the world.

Speaker 2: Correct. In America, amongst American Jewry, there's the [00:42:00] words tikkun olam, fixing the world. Now the real tikkun olam is a very spiritual concept. I'm not going to go into it now. But the point is that that Jewish idea has led people to do all kinds of things. It is a Jewish idea to want Make the world a better place, 

Speaker: right?

Right. Okay. So one final question for you, because I mean, it's, it's very intriguing and a lot of points you meant you mentioned really are giving me homework when, when we're, when we're done here, what would you say in very practical terms, the person says, you know, whether it's a major problem or a major problem in some level, I know I don't have amazing self image.

I know if I had greater self image, I'd be more empowered. I'd be happier. I'd be more settled in life. Practically speaking, what are steps a person Can take towards actually building positive self image. 

Speaker 2: So I would say you should not work directly on self image. It's, [00:43:00] it's kind of like as Victor Frankel said, certain things, try and focus on not salivating, you will salivate more.

So you need to focus on, on things that are really of, of, of, of value to yourself. And then you need to begin to give yourself feedback from those things. You need to get out of whatever rut it is that you're in, right. In, in whichever way you can, that's reasonable for you. You need to create an action plan.

Who volunteer for a soup kitchen once a week right. Do good things, put away. Yes. Yes. And then, and then give your feedback, yourself feedback, say that was a good thing. Okay. I, I'm capable of doing more good things and you just, you have to build it up, but you can't start the other way around. You don't start feeling good and then doing good things.

You do the good things and then they give you the feedback to allow you [00:44:00] to feel better about yourself. So it's the 

Speaker: action that causes the feelings rather than waiting for the feelings to lead to the action. Correct. And I would imagine part of it as well is it's not going to the soup kitchen and then posting on Facebook every day, Hey, I went to the soup kitchen, I'm such a sadic, 

Speaker 2: it's not going to help.

Right. Yeah. No, no, it's not. Because then you're soliciting other people's feedback. We all need some kind of external validation. It's very hard to be in a job longterm without anybody telling you that you're doing a good job et cetera, et cetera. But. You should minimize the external validation because that's feeding the problem, not the solution.

That's what I would say. Right. 

Speaker: Okay. Very good. Anything 

Speaker 2: else you want to add? My life has been dedicated to nurturing all kinds of different people. I see that as, as being my mission in life, nurture others to whatever greatness they can at every level, leadership level and, [00:45:00] and, and, and not leadership level, everybody needs to be a leader of themselves.

Speaker: Very good. Okay, rabbi, thank you very much. It was great having you on and I really appreciate, I learned a lot from it. I really appreciate the time. 

Speaker 2: You're welcome.