Ep. 3: Vital to Our National Security: Understanding Civics with former Secretary of the Army Louis Caldera and Secretary of the Navy Sean O'Keefe

In this episode, former Secretary of the Army, the Honorable Louis Caldera and former Secretary of the Navy, the Honorable Sean O'Keefe join Joe Plenzler (USMC), Ellen Gustafson, and Jeremy Butler (USN) for a discussion on how increasing public understanding of civics helps strengthen our democracy and mitigate political polarization. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

And and we now know that uh disinformation, uh, that social media uh tends to accentuate voices that are negative and divisive. And uh the you know, Russia and and China noticed, they understood that. And so they spent a lot of money trying to foment division within our country, trying to turn Americans against each other, because they see that as harming our country, advancing uh their interests uh in the world.

SPEAKER_02: 0:32

Hello and welcome to Vet Our Democracy, a podcast series produced by We the Veterans and Military Families. We are a nonprofit, nonpartisan group of veterans and military family members who are very pro-democracy. I'm board member and retired Marine Corps veteran Joe Plensler, and my co-host today are Elvin Gustafson, Executive Director of We the Veterans and Military Families, and Jeremy Butler, a U.S. Navy Reserve Officer and our Chief Growth Officer. And we're joined today by two very special guests, Secretary Lewis Caldera and Secretary Sean O'Keefe. Secretary O'Keefe began his public service career in the Department of Defense in 1978 as a presidential management intern. In his long and distinguished career, he served most notably under Republican administrations as the Secretary of the Navy, Deputy Director of the Office of Management and Budget, and one of my favorites, the administrator of NASA. When he left government, he served as Chancellor of the Louisiana State University, and he's presently a university professor in the Howard and Louise Phillenstahl endowed chair in leadership at Syracuse University's Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs. Secretary Lewis Caldera graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1978 and served in the Army on active duty from 78 to 83. He obtained a jurisdoctorate and MBA from Harvard. He practiced law and was elected to serve as a California State Assemblyman. He served in Democratic administrations as a Secretary of the Army and the assistant to the President and Director of the White House Military Office. Secretary Caldera is now a senior lecturer at Harvard Business School and serves on numerous nonprofit and public company boards and has on a number of educational and foreign policy and national security commission task forces and study groups. Both Secretary O'Keefe and Caldera have collaborated on pro-democracy and civics issues in the past, and I'm really looking forward to today's discussion on the role of public understanding to civics and how that plays into our national security and our domestic tranquility, and what veterans can do to help reinforce the foundations of our constitutional democratic republic. So to all, welcome. So to start the discussion today, uh why is it important for American citizens to understand civics?

SPEAKER_04: 2:42

Well, first and foremost, I think it's uh because it's uh such a perishable condition. This is not something that sustains itself on its own. It requires the engagement of the citizens to actually express the will of the people. And to do so in a manner that is not only fulsome but in full weight of all the factors to be considered. Um it's one that's you know considered something that is just on autopilot. That's when it begins to erode.

SPEAKER_03: 3:13

So uh uh first of all, thanks for for having us uh today uh on this important topic. And uh, you know, I totally agree with uh what uh Sean Secretary Keefe just said. You know, we're we're really blessed to live in this great, great nation that it was not fordained at our founding that we would be today the greatest nation in the world. But that happened because one, we had a structure for our government, which was this experiment in representative democracy and freedoms, and freedom that allowed people to have private enterprise and prop property and create the affluence that we have today. But we along with the with the rights uh that we know are in our constitution, there are the responsibilities of citizenship. And those include all the men and women who have fought for our freedoms from that uh war of independence through every single war that there have been Americans who've been willing to stand up and fight for our country. And the and and and the obligations of citizenship also uh you know, civics is a participatory sport. That means you have to vote, that means you have to be engaged, that means you have to be educated about the you know what the issues are uh so that you can make informed decisions uh you know at the ballot box. You know, so if you take, for example, what's happening today uh in the Middle East in the war uh that uh Hamas' attack on Israel, uh all of a sudden, you know, a lot of us are looking, saying, I need to relearn what uh this history is, what the challenges are, what the implications of this is. Uh and when policymakers uh suggest different courses of action, you know, we we will be better informed to judge how well they are actually uh representing us and our country uh in in responding uh to that because we now play a leadership role in the world. You know, our country does. And so therefore, we have to be informed and engaged citizens.

SPEAKER_02: 5:10

Thank you so much for your thoughts. Ellen, Jeremy.

SPEAKER_00: 5:13

Yeah, you know, I think I love what Secretary Caldera said about um the two sides of understanding our civic responsibility, the rights and responsibilities or obligations of citizenship. I think we are so buried in conversations, especially you know, loud screaming about whose rights uh are are won and whose rights you know tr could trample others, we are forgetting the other equally important side of citizenship, which is our responsibilities and obligations. The other thing that that's so important for us to understand, and we we say this often, you know, as a as a military spouse myself and in the company of all wonderful veterans that that um I work with, people assume that as a military family or a veteran, you know about civics. You know about the way the government works and the different branches and what the Constitution actually says and what every law says. But but we we don't have any greater level of education ourselves uh unless we've sawed it or a very narrow group who who's maybe gone to a service academy. You know, a a a person in in general connected to the military doesn't get a baseline education on civics. It's not part of the training. And it's incredibly important. Um but you know, it it's also um it's almost like you know giving us some false uh credentials in being able to speak publicly about some of these issues. The other thing I think that's so fascinating about our time is that there is a degradation of some of the most basic jobs needed to keep our country going. And I think that really comes from lack of education. You know, there's an immediate knee-jerk reaction against things like the word bureaucracy. Well, that's what keeps our government going. People that are doing these important but quiet and and and maybe seemingly boring jobs uh year in and year out are keeping uh are keeping our government going and are keeping our country um as as wonderful as it is. And I think you know that's part of what education might help us turn the tide on.

SPEAKER_01: 7:06

I'd also add that um, you know, our form of government was designed to be iterative. You know, it wasn't, you know, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, all of these things were meant to evolve, uh, and you know you can interpret that word how you want to, as time progresses. You know, we often talk about the Bill of Rights and things like that. You know, these are amendments. Like the Constitution was designed to be amended, um, and even at a much lower level, if you don't understand some of the basics of civics, it's hard to have a better understanding of where things need to change, how things need to change, the difference between uh rights that are imbued in the Constitution and those that are passed down to the state level. So when when average citizens are having these conversations and talking to their elected officials or those that want to become elected, it's very helpful to have an understanding of what the government was designed to do and not do and who should be having these rights and and regulations uh so that we just have a more informed conversation. Too often, you know, the loudest voices are assumed to be the correct ones. When I think we all know you too often hear people talking heads on the news, you know, spouting what they claim to be facts, which uh are really not accurate.

SPEAKER_02: 8:16

Yeah. I mean, it which brings up a really important thought, like, you know, of limited government, right, where we have majority rule but also protecting the rights of the non-majority within our country as well. So um you know, what we hear a lot about like democracy around the world being under attack, and we're fortunate today to be joined by two former service secretaries who I know keep a uh keep their pulse on what's going on around the world. Um we also know there's been documented attempts by hostile foreign governments to crack the American people's trust in democracy. So I'd like to ask you, gentlemen, from each of your perspectives, like what's the greatest threat out there? And um what are these folks trying to get us to believe as citizens?

SPEAKER_04: 9:00

Well, it's I think it's it's first and foremost to attempt to erode our confidence in being uh part of this extraordinary experiment that's been underway for two centuries and still sustaining itself based on a set of inviolate principles that uh if you can erode the confidence in those principles, qu have people question the rule of law, question the fundamental rights and responsibilities, as uh has been mentioned earlier, of citizenship, then there's a vulnerability that opens. And so to the extent that you're trying to exploit uh a weakness in what democracy calls for, there are so many, there's a multitude of ways to accomplish that task by simply questioning the underpinnings of what it is that you know is is motivated by that form of governance. And it is an unusual case, but it nonetheless is one that uh is uh information warfare is sometimes more deadly than many other forms of warfare that we are well prepared to try to respond to. This one we're still wrestling with it.

SPEAKER_03: 10:24

Yeah, I'm glad, you know, uh Sean, I'm glad you mentioned uh information warfare. You know, since since World War II, really when when the forces of freedom uh defeated uh the Nazis and the forces of uh oppression, uh, the U.S. has had played an increasingly significant leadership role in the world as the country that carried the banner for democracy, for protection of human rights, uh for free trade, and uh all the things that have created the society that we have today. And we clearly have uh adversaries in the world, uh particularly countries that are autocratic, uh, that uh run in a different form of government, uh, which don't even meet what they say their goals of their government are. What they really are is they're countries where a small elite is entrenched and where they use uh police powers and military power to keep themselves uh uh in power and to oppress even their own people. And then to try to to and and we're we're in a in a global contest uh with those uh forces in those countries. And then there's all other forces uh like in you know the uh Islamist jihadists and other terrorists and and other and other uh uh hotspots in in the world. And so as as we've contested these uh uh forces, uh we we they use the tools that are available to them. And our world has become you know very complex, uh that in part through globalization and part through technological advancements, and part of that technology is information technology, as uh as uh Secretary O'Keefe was saying. And and we now know that uh disinformation, uh, that social media uh tends to accentuate voices that are negative and divisive. And uh the you know, Russia and and China noticed, they understood that. And so they spent a lot of money trying to foment division within our country, trying to turn Americans against each other, because they see that as harming our country, advancing uh their interests uh in the world. Uh and so you know it's it's something that uh that is in many ways growing. You know, artificial intelligence means that there's even new levels of uh of uh misinformation that are possible and deep fakes and things like that. You know, so and that that's gonna also uh put a challenge on us to be uh smart and educated about understanding what kind of information is trustworthy, what kind of information should I really have suspicions about, and not just be in a in a deep well of only hearing the voices that you agree with, but of understanding what are trusted voices and um and and maybe sometimes even having a uh you know a little bit of uh of believing that that is so outlandish. It can't possibly be true. Uh and so when there are people, and I don't want to talk too long, but when there are people out there saying, you know, Democrats hate America or Republicans hate America, we have to get beyond that. Democrats don't hate America, Republicans don't hate America. And so voices that are telling you that, you know, are probably not the ones you should be listening to.

SPEAKER_00: 13:44

Aaron Ross Powell And I think that's that's so important when you look at some of the kind of more intricate elements of the way our country runs. There's been in recent years all kinds of questions about our elections and how voting works. And it's i i it's a system. There's constitutional authority to the states to run elections. There's you know, processes that each state has developed because that's the way our government works. They're different, and it's okay because that's exactly how it was supposed to be. But that means it's a little more complicated than just, okay, every single person goes to one same-looking ballot and votes. It's just not exactly like that. So that complication and the fact that so few people understand it opens the door to questioning. But again, you know, we've never had a wide-scale questioning of the way our elections worked on the scale that we have in recent years. And you have to wonder who has the incentive to make Americans question the results of their elections. It's probably really not other Americans. It's probably much more so foreign adversaries who love seeing Americans in fighting about the quality of our of our institutions and our democracy. And so, you know, I I feel, again, like what an opportunity is for for more people to understand how voting works, why it is run by states, why it's different. That basic information would give people a lot more trust and a lot more ability to push back on any sort of foreign or or even domestic misinformation that could come at them about something as complex as as the way our voting works. Yep.

SPEAKER_04: 15:19

There's a fundamental aspect that was mentioned earlier on. I think Jeremy, you mentioned this. One of the prints and anchoring principles of what democracy is all about is limited government and individualism. Both of those are major features that incorporate the elements of this in addition to others, but those two in particular is what motivates the most level of anxiety, in my view, of those who are really frustrated with the way the process works, how government actually fails to be efficient or equitable in their judgment on any individual matter. And so, as a consequence, this is a means to uh really revolt against this form of government because it's inefficient by definition. When everybody has to be involved and everybody's engaged, that's there's virtue in that, but it also takes time and it takes tolerance and it takes patience and all the elements that frankly you know most of us as humans don't have. So as a consequence, it it is almost designed to create this kind of anxiety for the purpose of hearing all points of view. And to anybody who's looking for an efficient answer right away, get on with it, let's do this, uh, that becomes a source of great frustration. And as a consequence, it motivates folks to line up to the view as we're hearing more and more clearly, frankly, from both sides of the aisle, that this is not a responsive government. This is not a and maybe this form of government isn't the one that we really need. It was a I think a most instructive observation that Alexis De Tokio observed in the 1830s with his seminal work, Democracy in America, that observed that one of the real tendencies on the part of democracy is unless it's cared and attended to, it tends to degenerate into soft depotism. And his term, that term of soft depotism was give me somebody who can make a decision, get on with this, and move forward. Well, you may not like that decision, and you sure won't like the fact that it's being arrived at singularly by a very small collective that makes those choices, as opposed to all of us at least being informed of how this process works. That is the challenge of what what democracy requires every day that the founders envisioned and knew very well was creating a constant source of anxiety, but one that beat the spots out of every other alternative.

SPEAKER_03: 18:23

The the uh um our system was designed to uh uh make it hard to pass laws because we didn't want uh whatever the flavor of the day to necessarily be the law that then binds people and and uh and such. We wanted laws to be made thoughtfully. That's why we have a bicameral legislature in the Congress with two houses and in almost every state in the country with the exception of one of one. And so that by definition means that government will work slowly in making decisions, except sometimes in in times of dramatic urgency, war, or responding to a hurricane or something. You you can see the Congress move pretty fast because they know they need to, and everyone is is aligned about what needs to happen. And you know, academic scholars call the kind of democracy that we have interest group pluralism, because there are many different people who believe that something different should be the top priority, or maybe even on uh on a subject which everybody agrees on, they have different views about how you should deal with that, providing additional housing, for example, or dealing with the homeless, or immigration, or whatever it might be. And what what how this had always worked was that uh you would ascribe some decency and and uh a search for the common good to people on the other side of the aisle, and Democrats and Republicans would wrestle around an issue, around what those priorities were, uh, about how how the The legislation should be shaped. If they couldn't agree, nothing would happen. But sometimes after maybe uh two or three or five or ten years of working on an issue, the the there there would be a consensus about what was the common good, and it usually involves some kind of compromise. No, neither side got everything it wanted. Or, and it's not just two sides, you know, 535 representatives and senators, maybe 200 different views of what should happen, but at some point you can't you get to a point where you compromise and you agree here's a bill that advances most of what we want to do, some of the things you want, some of the things I want, some of the things that are important to my particular state or district, and then we passed it. And, you know, but that's that's how our system's supposed to work is compromise. And unfortunately, today, compromise has become almost a dirty word. And if you're a person who compromises, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, it means someone's going to challenge you in the next primary or you're, you know, an evil person or something. And we've got to get back, I think, to this notion of what is the common good, seeing goodness in other Americans, and that yes, we can differ on what we believe the right solution is, but that doesn't mean the other person is evil or hates America or is trying to enslave us.

SPEAKER_02: 21:20

Yeah, and I I love that. And I think, you know, both um you, Secretary Caldera and you, Secretary O'Keefe, are kind of uh a testament to that spirit, right? Because even though you served in different administrations, you come from different political parties, I see you working together in various ways to advance that idea that, hey, you know, America's best work is really done when we do the hard, messy work of democracy and compromise, or you know, work towards consensus where we can and compromise where we must. But um, how do we get how do we change politics? Like, what are your thoughts? I mean, we we described like external threats to um our national security by hostile foreign actors trying to crack Americans' faith in our system, uh, to use advantage of that, like you know, people who are trying to dismantle the international rules-based order that came after World War II. Um, we we talked about like the importance of really not looking at your political opponents as enemies or people who hate our country, um, and a lot of the outrage politics that we see so prevalent on TV today. So, like, how do we as citizens demand our better politics and demand a better civics, I guess, within America?

SPEAKER_04: 22:35

Well, I think uh what Secretary Caldera pointed to was just the the virtues of understanding uh a multitude of different points of view for the purpose of trying to uh compromise and work through to a best solution in the common uh good. And and I think Lewis, you're also right that it has become branded by extremists, of which there are growing numbers, sadly, uh on on all sides of you know these equations, that really view compromise as something that should be avoided. Well, let's look at this in a different way then. What if we describe this as let's start with the proposition that we identify common interest, common objectives? What are things that are in everybody's best interest? And if you start at that angle, that begins to then motivate a dialogue, a debate, a discussion over what's the best means to achieve that goal. But at least you've agreed on the front end of what is what is important. I mean, you Joe, you touched on on the on the critical issue of national security. We can all get around the proposition that we ought to have a means to secure the nation. Indeed, to provide for the national security, it is the proverbial public good that all of us benefit by. Now, the means by which you accomplish that, that's a worthy debate. But you know, moving off on the tangents of each of the individual pieces of this, and one preference versus another, is what causes the in the inevitable conflict and differences of opinions. Fine. Let's reground and recenter on what is our common interest, and that is the core of citizenship. That's the core of what we're all about, and why we've been able to sustain this experiment for more than two centuries.

SPEAKER_03: 24:45

So in the area of civic engagement, I think one of the most important things is that we need advocates for the democracy. People who are not just advocates for a party or uh one or the other parties or individual candidates, but who are advocates for our democracy. And what do I mean by that? I mean that our system is one that's that where we should want everyone who's an eligible citizen to vote. Uh we should want to maximize participation uh and try to create rules, yes, with with security so that you know we people don't vote twice and those kinds of things, which is pretty rare, but you still need to have some measures that prevent that from happening. But but we should want everybody's voice in the process. So, therefore, if in your state you see rules being enacted that actually work to uh exclude people from participating, then you know we we should speak out or join those groups that are trying to increase participation. I think one of the biggest threats right now, one of the things that uh is harming our democracy, is the rampant gerrymandering on both sides of the aisle, uh in their particular in whatever states they happen to have the majority in. And what that does is it makes uh districts uncompetitive, which means that the election is, if it's a if it's a regular partisan general election, that the election is really decided in the primary of whoever controls the district, and you end up with people appealing to the most extremist ends of their parties, whether left or right, and then therefore, and this is how we end up sending people to Congress who are the flamethrowers and the no compromisers, uh, as opposed to, you know, because we don't have competitive districts. But there are things that are happening. So, for example, there are states that are uh experimenting with uh citizen commissions to redraw districts and taking it out of the hands of the legislature. In some places they've done this through the initiative process, and where their goal is, you know, let's create some more competitive districts uh where people have to appeal to everybody. There are experiments like uh top uh five uh uh vote getters move on to a primary or the or the top two uh, I'm sorry, ranked choice like ranked choice voting or top two vote getters, regardless of what their partisan affiliation is, will go on to the the general election. Those are all uh experiments that you know, we should look at those because what what they're what you're seeing is that people are trying to say, how do we create a system where people have where candidates have to appeal to everybody? And the candidates that uh not the narrow niche candidates, but the candidates who have an affirmative, positive uh message are are uh we hope more likely to uh to succeed, or where the elections are at least competitive. And and then, you know, and then there are other kinds of things. Attract good people to run, uh, take some of that money and influence out of politics that makes it just uh you know a bidding war, uh, where the only people who matter are the people who fund your campaigns as opposed to the people that you're gonna represent. But I think there are there are groups out there that are working on many of these kinds of issues, and so if you're a concerned American, you know, supporting, volunteering, uh uh uh becoming educated about some of these kinds of efforts uh to reinvigorate our democracy are are good places to invest your time. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02: 28:23

And I know one of the areas that both of you worked pretty uh intensively last uh presidential election was around the issue of veterans and absentee ballots. Could you tell us a little bit about that and why that's important? I mean, that absentee balloting and uh uh came under a lot of criticism lately, but um could please share your thoughts on on why that's important.

SPEAKER_04: 28:45

Well, this is in in part the one of those really unbelievable uh uh consequences of the pandemic was it accelerated our acceptance and understanding of absentee voting, because we by definition were all uh you know confined to quarters, as it were. And uh as a result, it had to find new and different ways to really express our view on matters. And this was one that really was highlighted well before the pandemic as being a real disadvantage to veterans, uh and to those who serve, actually, uh at presently, uh, who were stationed across the globe or in uh another part of the world or in any any other circumstance, this really was uh one of the real disadvantages that most active duty and guard and reserve personnel were subjected to uh that needed to have a much more uh you know uh expansive way to count the vote of those who are in service to us. And that was a that's a noble objective in and of itself, and one that I think made made some tremendous advances, and because of that, that particular consequence I think helped to inform this broader citizen absentee valid opportunity that was brought you know really hoisted on us as a consequence of a pandemic that provided fewer options to actually do so in person. So, you know, in in many ways, th this ought to be celebrated as something that really did engage citizens in a much deeper way. And for those who are seeking to restrict that now, it is only for one reason it's trying to suppress the vote of those they'd rather not hear from it. And that's that's that's not a an excuse that ought to be tolerated for one second.

SPEAKER_03: 30:56

You know, there are some states now that do their entire election by mail, and the the name has changed from in some cases absentee ballot to vote by mail, because you don't even you don't even have to you don't have to be out of town or not at your home or wherever on on uh election day. And so you know, so innovations like uh early voting, um uh drop places you can drop off your ballot, uh uh vote by mail, you know, have been important ways to increase participation. We saw, and we could look at the data and see that for service members, had a very large, you know, a more significant drop-off in whether their vote at the end of the day was counted or not counted based on when it was received. And so you and so you know, if you think about a service member who's serving you know on a submarine or overseas or maybe is in the field or or is uh deployed somewhere, uh, because you know, as as as Ellen said, every state runs, they run federal elections. That's provided for in the Constitution. But they have very different days about when do they do their primaries? When do you have to request your uh vote by mail? How do you have to request it? Does it have to be a live signature? Can you do it over the computer? How many days are there between the primary and the general election? There are some states whose primaries are so late, and if you think about the mechanics of election, someone has to still print ballots after that primary. So if you can't request, you know, if you have to request your absentee ballot in writing, but you don't get the form to request it until the ballot's been printed, uh, it's going to be almost impossible for a lot of military people and and over other overseas voters are diplomats in their families, or people who work overseas, or people who you know are have to vote by mail because that's the most convenient for way for them to participate. You know, so those um uh those are little mechanical things, but they're really important. And that's that's why who is the Secretary of State? How is election administration work? Are these rules that on their, you know, on their face aren't favoring one group or another group? All those things are are uh important. And I think there are thankfully some good government groups that are uh focused on these issues and you know calling calling out of bounds when it seems like someone's trying to put their their thumb on the scale, but also coming up with ideas and innovations for how to improve uh improve that system.

SPEAKER_02: 33:27

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you both for your your thoughts on that. I know one of the things that's really important to we, the veterans of military families, is helping educate the military and veteran community uh and their families about like just how safe and secure our elections are. And um Ellen was just up in the state of New Hampshire over the weekend working with uh the Secretary of State up there to bring veterans in to see a mock polling station. Do you want to talk about that just for a second?

SPEAKER_00: 33:52

Yeah, it's so true. You know, again, these are I we I I joke a lot that, you know, I I don't understand how a nuclear submarine gets launched. I also don't understand how a Secretary of State fully executes the incredibly safe and secure elections that they do, but they do. And I think it's funny that there's some Americans that are deeply questioning how these elections work, but are not necessarily sitting on the dock of uh of you know a Navy base trying to understand how submarines are launched. Um at some point we have to trust that we have these institutions. Again, we should always question, um we should always be curious, but um but the the depth of inquiry in in some of these things seems seems really unwarranted, especially um as Joe was saying, we have this incredible coalition, vet the vote, of 29 military and veteran organizations and and five civics organizations. And we we gathered uh a group of veterans who worked as poll workers, along with opening the doors to any veteran or military family um who was curious about their elections in the state of New Hampshire. Of course, New Hampshire has such an important place in our um in our political story because they're the first primaries and there's so much heated um you know uh heated in a very cold climate electioneering and and um and uh you know focus on that state. But what was amazing is that Secretary of State Scanlinen just said, hey, we'll set up a polling location, we'll show everyone how the machines work, we'll show everyone how the ballots work, we'll show everyone who who does what in the different jobs along the way. And those people who came in and were the uh explainers were all veterans themselves. Uh the woman who is the election monitor who runs elections in Merrimack County as I was talking to her is also a Navy wife uh like me. She was she was a Navy spouse uh many, many years ago, her husband was in. And so, you know, these are incredibly trustworthy people who care so much. They took so seriously. They had two people there when they opened uh the machine and put the pieces together and used the key and printed out the zeroing to show the machine was zeroed out. I mean, they know how the system works. They are not terrible people who are trying to sneak uh sneak fake fake ballots in. And um, it's it's sad that people that do those relatively thankless jobs that are so incredibly important uh would be questioned by people who just don't understand. So our call to action is just try to understand it. Just go somewhere and see if you can figure it out. And if you really want to understand it, go work as a poll worker yourself. Get in the mix, get educated, take the training, see how incredibly serious it is. Most of the veterans who who've done uh the poll worker training through us have said it reminded them a lot of military training. It was incredibly serious. They had to do their job, just like we somehow get a nuclear submarine to do their job underwater for for many, many days. We somehow do these incredible elections um when we need to. And I think Americans should be educated but also reminded to trust that that's just how our institutions are set to work.

unknown: 36:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:41

Yeah, and definitely that in own part of the process. Jeremy, you're gonna say something.

SPEAKER_01: 36:45

Yeah, I was just gonna add because I just actually, it was just last week, um I redid my poll worker training because I moved, I'm so I'm in a new location, did it in a new part of New York City or New York State, and one, we opened with everyone stating the Pledge of Allegiance, we went through all the training, and then it actually ended with everyone taking an oath uh to the Constitution to properly execute these elections. So to Ellen's point, if anyone, one, questions the security of the elections or two is just curious as to how they are secure, could not recommend more doing the training and becoming a poll worker because one, it shows you just how incredibly rigorous the system is, but also it's just incredibly rewarding uh to work with people, like often by design, you know, you're working as a bipartisan team or as a nonpartisan team, depending on how you want to do it, to ensure that people are getting checked in, that the people are are who they say they are, and that their ballots are cast and counted. It's it's incredibly fulfilling. And I've been doing it for a number of years, but it just coincidentally redid my training last week and kind of forgot that we took an oath. And that may change from location to location, but it was literally an oath to uphold the Constitution while doing these duties.

SPEAKER_02: 37:56

Definitely. Yeah, I just took mine last uh last month over at Warren County, Virginia, the registrar's office, uh, because I moved this summer as well. Um, you've both been very generous with your time. I want to kind of uh throw out one last question to wrap things up. What can veterans do? You know, we talked a lot about uh we covered a lot of ground today, and uh, from your perspective, what role does the veteran and military family play in in helping make American civics and American politics better?

SPEAKER_03: 38:29

Well, you know, what I one first I'd say that uh we should always remember that uh people in uniform are citizens also. So they also get a right to participate and have a voice in our political process. They're not political, that is uh serving in the military is nonpartisan, our military, our our State Department, those should always be nonpartisan. But you still have a right, but you have a right to vote. So that participation uh is important. And then as someone who has seen uh firsthand what our country stands for, it's an important role in the world, super important to be involved in in civic life, to continue to be involved as an active uh citizen who votes and is educated and participates and shares their perspectives on the issues that are that are uh uh facing uh our country. Um and and if you and if you have the time, be one of those advocates for our democracy because you understand uh how important our democracy is. You understand how much people all over this world are counting on our country being that standard bearer for human rights and democracy and uh making it a making it a better, a better world, a more safe and secure world. Um and so you know, we'll uphold that uh we can uphold that if we have the strong support of the American uh people. Uh so you can be part, a very important part of the glue in our in our country. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 40:01

Yeah, there was a very interesting uh New York Times article I read yesterday on the Department of Defense school system is among the highest standards and performance and so forth for education across the board of any school system that we see around the country, and there's a whole lot of reasons for that. It's not you know uh you know something that is is just a consequence of any one individual factor, but nonetheless, um still is exemplary and it provides a with veterans and those who are in service today have an opportunity to do is is and their children and those that are that are part of their families really do have an opportunity to understand as the the discussion went in this article to understand the basic fundamentals of what makes this country operate the way it does, how effective way it can be operated. Terrible inefficient way of doing things it is effective solutions. Also we talked about why it's a responsibility. This is a responsibility of anyway. Given the atmosphere that they have, given you know for their families and others, it isn't perfect by any means, but it certainly is a standard that is what that the rest of us as citizens around the country aspire to see in our communities. That's a great message, that's a great opportunity to talk about why it is we need to preserve uh the basic principles of what democracy calls for now. And that they're part of actually picking up an ore, literally, in some cases, and you know, defending that capacity uh for all of us to enjoy. And that's a reminder of that in another subtle way as well. So, you know, the combination is it it is a uh it becomes a unique responsibility given the nature of uh their stepping up to and volunteering to be part of this extraordinary effort to defend this democratic way of government.

SPEAKER_02: 42:57

Thank you so much. I couldn't agree more. You know, I think you know, we hear about democracy not being a spectator sport. I mean, we all have a responsibility to get involved. And I think, you know, one of the things I absolutely love that I'm hearing in this uh conversation and other ones that we've had before is more talk about what we owe each other as fellow Americans and citizens, what are our collective responsibilities, how do we each contribute to this democratic republic that we have, um, and how do we keep it going so that it you know it it it persists for not only our kids and generations to come for sure. Um Jeremy, uh Ellen, final thoughts.

SPEAKER_00: 43:40

Yeah, you know, I I it was uh mentioned before, you know, De Tocqueville's um sort of view of America. And one of the things that I'm constantly reminded of as a military spouse is de Tocqueville's um main point that Americans across all ages and and backgrounds constantly unite. We constantly found ways, as he observed, in just working together, not just in politics, but you know, working together in in farming communities, in urban communities, in in you know, religious environments, in in just you know, community organizations. And what it wasn't saying, oh, ever everyone who was a Democrat you know collaborated in this way, and everyone who was Republican collaborated in this way. It was just saying Americans just tended to work together and and we we had to build a country from the ground up, so we had to just kind of get our hands dirty. And a lot of that, unfortunately, first of all, the the getting our hands dirty, those obligations and responsibilities that we've talked about, a lot of that has seemed to fade in every single community, not just one or the other. No side can point to the other saying it's faded just over there. Um, but one place that working together across silos hasn't faded, and I've can say this with 100% sincerity, is in the military family community. And I'm assuming also in many ways in the veteran community, you know, I work with people to raise my children that are very different backgrounds and political views, and their Instagram posts are really different from mine in many ways. But when it comes down to it and our family members are deployed and we have to figure out how to, you know, get through a hurricane coming to hit Virginia Beach, we are going to work together. We are going to make it happen. And that is something I wish for my fellow Americans to have less of these silos and more opportunities in, you know, in this civic capacity to just work with people from different backgrounds and remember what, as I said before, what our common goals are. Um because there's way more in common than there is than there is uh that's that's different and divisive.

SPEAKER_01: 45:45

Yeah, the the high school version of me would definitely say that civics education is boring uh because I said it and my grades probably reflect it. But I think uh to all of us today, it's much more relevant because we're seeing it in real life. Uh I think in ways that you know we definitely didn't when I was younger, and it's more so true now, and I've talked about this before. You know, we're seeing what single members of Congress can do. We're seeing what divided Congress uh can result in in terms of government shutdowns and potential shutdowns. Um and I think the more we see that in real life, hopefully the more interested average citizens will be in understanding why our system is the way it is, as we've discussed. You know, it's it's designed to make progress be slow, but it's designed to make progress benefit the majority of us. Uh, and hopefully uh people will learn from that uh and get involved and and we can get get things on a better path.

SPEAKER_02: 46:40

Awesome. Awesome. All great thoughts. I really appreciate uh especially Secretary O'Keefe and Secretary Caldera for taking the time to share your wisdom with us. I know you do a lot of thinking on our democracy and the world stage and how you know what's America's role and how do we how do we lead in this very turbulent, chaotic world? And I think, you know, one thing that I've gathered from uh this robust conversation today was one, you know, any time that Americans are tearing at each other, we're really doing our nation's opponent's job for them. And also to remember that the person on the other side of the political issue from you is also your fellow American first, and to keep that in mind so that we kind of stay focused on how do we debate the issues instead of hurling attacks at each other's character, which would help clean up politics quite a bit. So, well, thank you both for your time, and uh, we really, really appreciate your your thoughts and wisdom today. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03: 47:34

Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

SPEAKER_02: 47:36

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this podcast episode interesting or useful, please share it with the people you know. This episode was co-hosted by Joe Plunzler, Ellen Gifterson, and Jeremy Butler. The audio and video were edited by Cameron King. Vet Our Democracy is a production of We the Veterans and Military Families, a 501c3 not-for-profit, nonpartisan, pro-democracy organization. We are focused on promoting positive and patriotic civic engagement to strengthen American democracy. Find out more about us at weTheVeterans.us and follow us on social media. Until next time.