Ep. 7: Challenges facing the 2024 elections, a conversation with Jennifer Morrell and Tina Barton

In today’s episode, we’re diving into a vital discussion with three experts on the frontlines of safeguarding our elections: 

Jennifer Morrell, U.S. Air Force veteran and CEO of The Elections Group. Jennifer is a nationally recognized authority on election audits, a subject matter expert for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security’s Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, and a member of the National Task Force on Election Crises. 

Tina Barton, also of The Elections Group. With 32 years of civil service experience from local to federal levels, Tina has spent the last 16 years focusing on election administration and security. She’s served as the city clerk of Rochester Hills, Michigan, and as Senior Advisor at the U.S. Election Assistance Commission. 

Justin Smith, retired sheriff of Larimer County, Colorado. With 35 years of law enforcement experience, Justin now advises The Elections Group on law enforcement concerns related to elections. Tune in as we explore their unique perspectives on the challenges and solutions in ensuring safe and secure elections. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

We're all people, and these are the same people that you're interacting with in your community in lots of different ways, where politics never becomes part of the conversation and realizing that they are human and putting that respect back on the fact that they are a person and they are an individual.

SPEAKER_04: 0:20

Hello, and welcome to Vet Our Democracy Podcast, created by us, the nonprofit, nonpartisan pro-democracy group, we the veterans and military families. In this series, we explore what it means to be a citizen, what veterans and military families' roles are in supporting and defending our constitution following military service, and how you can get more involved to help create a more perfect union. We're all in this democracy thing together, and it's important for all of us to know our rights and our responsibilities to each other. As citizens, we need to know how our government is supposed to work so we can engage patriotically and positively to help bring about the best version of America. If you care about America, democracy, baseball, mom, and apple pie, this is the podcast for you. Today's episode is all about our elections. No surprise to anyone, 2024 is a big election year where we'll elect everyone from the president of the United States, one-third of the U.S. Senate, all of the House of Representatives, and countless officials, right on down to the local county dog catcher. American politics and elections have always been, how shall I say, an energetic affair. For instance, when candidate George Washington was competing for the Virginia House of Burgesses in 1758, he plied voters with 47 gallons of beer, 35 gallons of wine, two gallons of cider, and 70 gallons of rum punch. Colonial area elections were festive, rowdy, and occasionally riotous affairs. While the United States is one of the longest running and most stable democracies in the world's history, we've had our moments when it comes to elections. In 1834, Whigs and Democrats duked it out in Philadelphia and they burned down an entire city block. In 1850, the Know Nothing Party used violence against immigrants and Catholics to prevent them from voting, which led to riots in Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York, Washington, D.C., and more. In 1874, more than 5,000 men of opposing parties fought in the streets of New Orleans. I was born a few years after the violence marred the 1968 Democratic National Convention, and elections over the course of my 50 years have been pretty normal, mundane affairs. Lately it seemed the pendulum of history has been swinging the other way and is a cause for great concern. We the Veterans and Military Families was founded in the wake of January 6, 2021 because we were shocked by the resurfacing of political violence and wanted to do something about it, to help strengthen the foundations of our democracy, reinforce norms, and help promote positive and patriotic civic engagement. Joining us today are three incredible guests who are doing great work around the country to help strengthen our elections and support election officials from coast to coast. As they will tell you, democracy doesn't just happen. It relies upon the patriotic work of hundreds of thousands of election officials and volunteer poll workers. These are patriotic men and women who ensure the sanctity of the polling place to ensure every qualified American citizen can exercise their fundamental right to vote. Joining us today for an important discussion on our vibrant democracy are U.S. Air Force veteran and CEO of the elections group, Jennifer Morrell. Jennifer is a nationally recognized expert on election audits and subject matter expert for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and a member of the National Task Force on Election Crisis. Tina Barton, also of the election group, joins us. Tina spent 32 years as a civil servant from the local to federal levels and spent 16 years dedicated to the election administration and safety. She's been the city clerk of Rochester Hills, Michigan, and the senior advisor at the U.S. Election Assistance Commission. And finally, Justin Smith. Justin is a retired sheriff of Laramore County, Colorado. He has 35 years of law enforcement experience and advises the elections group on law enforcement concerns. So to these three patriots and civil servants, welcome.

SPEAKER_02: 4:05

Good morning. Thanks, Joe.

SPEAKER_04: 4:07

Where are you? And could you tell us like roughly where you're located in the United States as you're joining us?

SPEAKER_02: 4:13

Sure. So this is Jennifer Morrell. I'm uh my home base is Salt Lake City, Utah, and just super excited to be here. Uh obviously we work all across the country, but when I'm home, this Utah is where I call home.

SPEAKER_04: 4:27

Fantastic. So, Justin, where are you located?

SPEAKER_00: 4:31

Uh good morning, Joe. Good to be on with you. I'm uh calling in from our home in Grand Junction, Colorado, on the far western side of Colorado, on the western slope.

SPEAKER_04: 4:41

Nice. Yeah, I've been out there. It's lovely country out there. And then Tina, I hear you're in Chicago.

SPEAKER_01: 4:46

Yes. Good morning, everyone. So, excuse me, currently in Chicago, uh, but from the Detroit area in Detroit, Michigan.

SPEAKER_04: 4:54

Fantastic. Yeah, I was just uh embarrassed this weekend because the Buckeyes did lose to Michigan, so my dad was rubbing that in pretty heavily. But uh, yeah, um Ellen. And Ellen, you're joining us from Norfolk, yeah?

SPEAKER_03: 5:06

Yep, I'm here in uh Norfolk, Virginia Beach uh area, as usual. Oh my Navy spouse life.

SPEAKER_04: 5:13

Well, well, can you first uh begin telling us what the elections group is and what your mission is all about?

SPEAKER_02: 5:19

Sure. So I'll jump in there. Uh we're a team of election experts supporting election professionals. We do that through collaboration, thought leadership, and elevating best practices. Um, we're really a unique organization. I don't know of another one out there where every single member of our team has worked in an election office or worked with directly with election officials at both the state and local level. Um and in in practically speaking, um, when we say we're there to support election professionals, um, that is in a variety of ways. We do provide direct support, we build a lot of resources, we go out and do training and presentations. Um, like Tina and Justin uh will talk to you about some of the work that they do. So, really, it runs the gamut from communications to security to um operational sort of best practices, and um, we just really want to do everything that we can to help our peers and former colleagues run successful elections.

SPEAKER_04: 6:23

No, that's that's awesome. And as a county-level election volunteer, I totally appreciate that because uh I I know the better that our county registrars do at their jobs, the better that, you know, the better experience that we have as volunteers and the better experience that the voters have at the polls. So all around, um that's good work. Um you're traveling the country right now, meeting with election officials coast to coast, I'm told. So what are you seeing out there? Um what are you hearing from state and local officials about what's on their mind when it comes to the upcoming elections in 2024?

SPEAKER_02: 6:57

Yeah, do you want me to jump in there and then Tina, Justin, you can uh follow up. I let me just say, Joe, Ellen, first thing is we're seeing a lot of great things. Um I know we're gonna talk about some of the challenges, but in my 15 years of being in the election community, we're seeing people really stepping up more attention, thought towards physical security, cybersecurity, um, a lot more attention to detail, knowing that they're now under this tremendous amount of scrutiny and trying to ensure that things are done well, things are done right. We we're seeing um huge strides in the way that election administrators communicate with their constituents. So there are some really great things happening. Um there's also a lot of stress and anxiety that we're seeing, right? There is um so much work that goes into preparing for a presidential election, and Tina can talk a little bit about that. It's um for those of us that um have been in the field a long time, no one is no single election is ever the same as the one that you ran before. Um you're never certain what what challenges might um crop up, and so you try to plan for everything. Um you try to make sure that you um plan for what you think will be the turnout, and and you wait and you watch and you hope that you've done everything well. I think the the challenge for folks that we're talking to is many of them are brand new, many of them have never ran a presidential election before. And um, there's some things that you can learn and teach, and there's some things you just have to experience. So I think that's one of the biggest things that we're concerned about. I think the other one is this um continued sort of um harassment of local election officials, everything from just being constantly criticized and and condemned for the work they do and including up to and including um direct threats. And again, Justin Tina can talk more about that. I think this latest episode with the fentanyl being uh mailed to a handful of election offices has sort of uh been sobering for the community and sort of thinking, okay, this isn't over. We're we're still gonna have to be really vigilant uh when it comes to our physical safety and security.

SPEAKER_04: 9:20

Yeah, that almost reminds me of when Fent or Ricin was being mailed or white powder was being mailed to the U.S. Capitol, right, a couple years ago. Um yeah, totally uh nobody deserves that, right? Uh Tina, uh Justin, what are you what are you seeing out there?

SPEAKER_01: 9:35

I so I want to first say, you know, again, thank you for having us. But this um as Jen mentioned, this this drive to promote confidence and um instill confidence in the constituency for them to feel and understand processes, feel that they um are a part of it, feel that they understand it, that it's secure, that it's safe, all of those things. I I think election officials are working overtime, um trying to do everything they can do to get information like that out there, um, doing uh new processes, bringing people in more, transparency obviously is a really big word for everyone to be really transparent. Also, see this um push for professionalism and certification programs that are going in across the country, more of a drive for election officials to do that. Um, also uh I would say that as as Jen mentioned, we also are seeing this um exhaustion that has set in, this um mentally emotional exhaustion really for those who have been a part of this process for a long time. Uh, we're seeing you know some burnout and challenges there, um, you know, because there has, um, for a lot of people in the press, it may appear that um what we experienced in 2020 as election officials was a 2020 problem or a 2020 situation. Um, but really this has kind of been an everyday in America situation for our election officials. The um harassment has continued, the constant barrage of criticisms, um, the threats, and um, like was just mentioned, uh, things like the fentanyl being sent to their offices. It has people on guard, it has people concerned, concerned for their safety, their staff safety, for the process, uh, all of those things. And so um another thing that we're seeing are new faces, and and Jennifer mentioned that too. We've seen a huge turnover in our country. And so retention and recruitment has become a challenge in the profession. And that's something that we're hoping as the elections group, as we put these good resources out there for people, give them help in whatever way that we can with these guides and with teachings and instruction, whatever that might be, that we might help empower them to feel like, hey, you know what, I can hang on to this for one more year. I can do this for you know another year because someone is helping me and I have some resources there. And I think that that's a lot of what we're hearing is that they just need resources. They need resources, they need support. Um, they need evangelists, if you will, people that are going to go out there and tell the truth about what is going on and how elections actually operate and um the security and the safety of the process. And one of the things that we say at the elections group is, you know, championing the process and not the outcome, and really just how much of what is done in elections is done that way. And so I think that that is um kind of what we're seeing and and hearing from like an overall general perspective.

SPEAKER_04: 12:50

No, thank you for that. Wow, that's it's uh that adds a lot of color to to the situation. And then um, you know, that's one of the things that we're Ellen and I are really focused on is like helping dispel myths about elections, right? You know, and I think um, you know, I tell the story I was probably one of the world's world's biggest skeptics, and then went to be a volunteer at the polls and sat through you know four hours of training and an inch thick manual that was pretty much marine-proof. I mean, if you could read, you could open up and close a polling station following the instructions. Um but uh you know, I think the the the biggest antidote to the skepticism is education, right? And I think you know that's a big thing where Ellen especially came up with the idea of helping um bring veteran leaders from the community into you know meet with their county registrars and the secretaries of state to help really understand how the whole thing's done and and really how awesome it is in almost every place in the country. So um Justin, what do what are you seeing out there?

SPEAKER_00: 13:51

So from the law enforcement perspective, I can tell you that the the big thing is that the the scale and size and scope of the problem is eye-opening. Uh traditionally, law enforcement has been discouraged really from being at or near polls. It really was our role to stay away from for a variety of reasons. You know, as a democracy, the idea of uniformed, you know, some kind of enforcement uh folks near polls is discouraging. So typically we've we've stayed away, we've worked to respect uh the uh you know the role of our elections officials, but the eye-opening part is recognizing that need really since 2020, and then it wasn't just a one-time thing, as Tina mentioned, that we had issues in 2020, but those have continued. And for a lot of law enforcement uh folks out there, it's a little eye-opening. We we didn't realize that these things were going on, were continuing issues. And you know, for me personally, it came from hearing those stories of elections officials like Tina and many more people of the things they went through. Uh, law enforcement's recognizing now as we bring it forward that the ask is coming from our elections experts and professionals, that they're asking for our assistance. And as we talk to them, I'll tell you, part of what we're learning is that the concerns and issues they face uh in a lot of ways parallel what law enforcement has been facing for the last uh few or several years, uh, recruiting, retention, just that overall environment in society of disrespect, etc. And I don't think we grasp at our election workers because we we typically recognize elections were pretty quiet. We didn't realize that that this bad behavior had spread into the elections field. So it's an eye-opener for us first to recognize that it's there and then be willing to be collaborative partners and find out what's needed and find out how we can help.

SPEAKER_04: 15:43

Yeah, you know, and you break up a good point about the the trend of like divisive partisan politics kind of creeping down into the county you know level where you know before municipalities you know were rarely partisan campaigns, or if they were, people were kind of just like titularly Democratic or Republican running for those positions, but it wasn't really such a strong, strong thing. And I saw in the Washington Post over the weekend one community had actually uh banded together to throw out the partisans. So it was like a coalition of of Republicans and Democrats who were just sick of the uh the chaos uh and said, no, we're just gonna work together and we we like our calm small town that has boring politics. So they fought and they threw them out and they brought it back. So, you know, that's a that's a glimmer of hope that that I read over the weekend. But um yeah, Ellen, what questions do you have?

SPEAKER_03: 16:33

Well, no, so just to just to be this super nerdy um interjection here, because I think um, Sheriff Smith, you set this up really well. You know, people recognize in America that law enforcement, when you come to your police or or so the people that deal with your everyday, you know, law enforcement, that's local. And then sure, there's federal stuff, but that's different. I mean, you you have local law enforcement, they are people in your community, they do those jobs for you, they serve you, fellow community members, and then there are federal agencies, there's the military. I mean, those things are all totally run um differently and by a different set of laws. And so um, one thing we learned in getting engaged in understanding the civics and the and the rules behind voting is that in the Constitution, in Article 1, Section 4, states have the power. They have primary control over election administration, the time, the place, and the manner of the elections. And that's become really confusing for many Americans because by the Constitution, it is different in every state. And that's how it's supposed to be. That's how literally the founders laid it out. The federal government can't come in and tell a state, you know, this is how, you know, this is what day, this is how you should run, uh, exactly run your elections. And so I think that's of course led to people's confusion. We we have a deep understanding that our law enforcement's gonna be local, but we'd have a less deep understanding that these election administrators are exactly the same thing. They're going on, you know, their own our own local rules, laws, state-level laws, and they are local people. They're not coming in from the federal government or the party or something else. They're just, you know, people that are doing their jobs. So I think that's that's something that we've learned. And so I'm curious, you know, are there any other areas of sort of information both from the law enforcement side, Sheriff Smith, and from Tina and Jennifer, your incredible um expertise that people really should know, um, first of all, as veterans and military family members, but also just as voters about how our elections um are supposed to run.

SPEAKER_00: 18:29

If I could just uh respond to that initially, Ellen, and you hit the nail on the head about that unique aspect to, you know, we are a local control nation, I think uniquely different than almost any nation on the planet. That that's that's been the secret sauce, I think, to our success. But it's that recognition that at these levels, you're right, that local police are are they from the community, and the same thing at that election side that it's there. And um, you know, if we look at other models around the world, typically they're they're top down, we are bottom-up, and it's it's keeping you know, keeping that knowledge, but at the same time for law enforcement recognizing depending on these threats, if we're talking about a specific individual threatening an election official that happens locally, or when that happens, that's a local police call. But you know, part of what we're seeing is is a combination of essentially domestic violence extremists whose threats go across the country. And you know, in Tina's case, for example, it wasn't necessarily it wasn't someone local, it was someone uh interstate making threats, and that's not unusual. And the point of that is when we get to those types of interstate or even uh foreign actors that may be somehow messing with our elections, you know, law local law enforcement has to uh cement those partnerships with our uh our federal partners because we need them, you know, certainly for interstate crime investigations. And then if we're dealing with foreign governments, you know, that's really going to be something we have to work very close with our federal partners. So I think that is part of that unique piece. Yeah, no, Ellen.

SPEAKER_04: 20:05

Go ahead. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 20:06

Oh, I was just gonna say, I this is such I this this problem that you framed up, I think is at the crux of the challenge that we're gonna face in 2024. We're talking about information coming in from everywhere. People are overloaded, they're saturated. Um, some of it is true, some of it is not. And so I think the biggest challenge for election officials is helping voters, helping constituents really sift through that and understand like who is the trusted source of information. If there's something that voters can do, it's making sure that they're going to the trusted source. They're going to the state or local election officials, starting with their website or any other information that they're putting out, um, not only to just educate themselves about what is actually taking place in their community and their state in terms of policies and rules and regulations, um, but also hopefully sort of gain this understanding that um elections are sort of three things that we can say consistently about the way elections are ran across the country. Um Tina mentioned transparency. Elections are always ran in a transparent way. Everything that we do usually has to be posted, open to the public, includes multiple members of the public present, whether those are poll workers or Canvas board members or what have you. Um elections are always ran in a bipartisan way. I don't know of any election office that doesn't require two people, and usually two people of opposing parties anytime they're handling sensitive information, ballots, uh, election equipment, so on and so forth. Um and elections are ran by professionals. Tina mentioned this professionalization. And and I think like driving people to trusted sources of information to feel confident about their own elections can help hopefully recognize that um elections are ran just as well in other states or jurisdictions as in their own state, own community.

SPEAKER_01: 22:08

Yeah, and I would say um, and Jennifer just did on that, Joe, where she was talking about the bipartisanship of this. And I think that, you know, even probably over Thanksgiving, some of us might have found out that we can't even discuss elections over thing, you know, at a at a family dinner, right? Because there's so much divisiveness in our country. And I that's one thing I do love about the elections process, is it it is the most bipartisan thing that we do in our country, where in my community, the where I was the city clerk, we would hire 400 people to work the election, you know, and you're you're hiring half Democrats and half Republicans to come together, to come together and actually do a process all day long where they work together to make sure that it runs smoothly, that it runs safely, securely. It's absolutely beautiful that we still have that in our country, that that we do that. And the other part of that um that you mentioned um in talking about uh reminding of people that these are locals, right? These are people you know. I think one of the challenges that we face is uh a dehumanization, if you will, of election officials, that they have become an enemy and not a person any longer. They're no longer Tina Barton, somebody's mom, somebody's grandma. You know, I've become a bad person. I've become a name that they want to tag me with, or whatever that might be, but I'm I'm getting between them and what they want or who they want to win, right? And so I'm no longer an individual. And I know that there has been a push across the country to do these almost like public service type announcements of, hey, your election workers are, you know, the soccer mom who's on the sideline with you. It's the grandma that you're shopping next to in the grocery store, it's the the male that you're sitting next to in church, you know, that you're having conversations with. These are those, we're all people, and these are the same people that you're interacting with in your community in lots of different ways, where politics never becomes part of the conversation and realizing that they are human and putting that respect back on the fact that they are a person and they are an individual.

SPEAKER_03: 24:27

Yeah, yeah, well, so so that's a great tee up because both what you're you're all saying about the lack of um information and and knowledge about our elections, but also about this need to hire people every couple of years for these really, really, really important parts of our democracy. So we we learned from you uh among other people, Tina, but really you were kind of our first, one of our first friends about this hole, this gap and need for more poll workers and that and that we we learned that in 2022 for the midterms, which are usually not as sexy in America, they're not as cool, um, they don't get as much attention, but um, they because they were coming after the the 2020 election, the 2022 midterms were becoming a little more interesting, but not necessarily in a good way. And we learned that there was a a need for poll workers, of course, representing all parties, all backgrounds, and literally spread across the country. And so because we had uh Joe, our our board member, our dear friend and amazing lifelong veteran or military member, but also veteran advocate in his post-military career, we we knew that being a poll worker was an incredible experience. And uh we we thought of this concept of like, why don't we just go out to all veterans and military family members who already have America's trust but also have a will and a need and a desire to serve and ask them. And the results that we found we got were astounding. And I think not because I want to talk about our organizational success, but I want to talk about one interesting story. We put out uh the information about being a poll worker and about how you can actually make money in doing it in your local community. We put it out through the VA newsletter. And I think until this point, no one thought that anyone read the VA newsletter. It's one of those like government newsletters that they do, you know. Yeah, yeah, but apparently they do because um within within 12 hours of the mention in the VA newsletter, 36,000 veterans signed up to be poll workers. And what that says to us is not just, you know, how how great are veterans, but also um when people are asked to serve and you make it clear and easy and and local, they do, and especially our community. So um I just wanted to say, you know, why why the whole? Why the need? Why was it so great? Um, and then what's it looking, uh, what's what's looking ahead to 2024? What's the need gonna be? And and how, you know, how how bad is it gonna be in terms of what how many poll workers America will will need to bring in across the country?

SPEAKER_02: 27:00

So, Ellen, I think one of the things that is um not as well understood is it's not just a matter of recruiting bodies, but recruiting capable bodies. Um, elections are more complex than they've been in the past. They require um some familiarity with technology, whether those are e-poll books to check voters in or um setting up uh modern-day voting equipment. So there's that part of it, right? Election officials need to recruit people that can manage that complexity and handle that technology. I think the the sort of added twist, though, and you um you framed that really well, is that they've got to make sure that they're finding people that can do exactly what they raise their arm and take an oath to do, which is to uphold the constitution and uphold the laws of their state and running the elections. And what that what I mean by that is being willing to put uh their party politics aside or any other sort of ideology that they hold aside um and run the election, just like Joe mentioned, uh, take that great big book and follow the um follow the steps in it exactly. So uh it's when you put add those two things together, it does become a challenge. And I think that's one of the reasons why I love the work that you all are doing, because for me, as a former veteran, uh married to a retired veteran, um that um that's an amazing population to tap into that sort of checks all of those boxes that I just mentioned.

SPEAKER_04: 28:33

Yeah, and I think thank you, thank you for that. I think one of the things, Jennifer, that that your comment kind of struck with me is and it kind of links into what Sheriff Smith was saying earlier, is really that that propensity to serve, right? Um, you know, we all if you know we we talk a lot in this country about our rights as citizens. We don't talk enough about our responsibilities as citizens and what we owe to each other to create a more perfect union. And I think one thing, you know, I know like, you know, I when I was in the in the military, I I spent 16 years as a public affairs guy and four years in the infantry, and and having studied foreign propaganda pretty intensively, I know like when people are trying to crack a population's faith in their system of government, three things they they what they try to do is keep them poor, keep them ignorant, and keep them afraid. And you know, like these fear messages play so deep because they they cook right into like old brain um, you know, human biology. Like fear is a really potent uh thing. And once somebody can make you afraid, then they can manipulate your thinking. And so, you know, we we always caution people to say, hey, like, you know, if somebody's trying to make you afraid with the news you're reading or or whatever, the conversation you're having, take a deep breath, pause and ask yourself, like, to whose advantage is this fear? And it goes into like you know, the dehumanization that was Tina's talking about, it was uh goes into uh Sheriff Smith and you know, like you know, public outrage against you know certain police forces spilling over into like you know, all cops are bad, which we know is absolutely not true. Uh, but if we you know if people persist in that thinking, it's gonna be harder and harder to get well-trained, well-equipped, dedicated police forces. So, you know, I think what I what I see out there is a lot of people looking for simple answers to complex solutions, right? In these false binary choices, like you can be, you know, all you know, all this matters or all this matters, and you got to pick a team and be on a side. Or you can be a Republican or a Democrat and you got to pick a team and be on a side. And it's just kind of like I think we need to push the brakes nationally and to say, hey, just remember, we may disagree about the how to get to places, but the what we're trying to achieve, you know, who doesn't want to feel more safe in their communities? Who doesn't want more free and fair elections? Who doesn't want like a more abundant society? Um, so we may differ on the hows, but to remember that the person on the other side of the issue is still an American first, right? They're your fellow citizens. So like, you know, nationally, one thing we're encouraging leaders to do is like tone it down, right? We know outrage kind of gets attention and all this other stuff, but I think people are getting sick of it. I hope they are. Um, but you know, I think that dehumanization thing is a big, big deal that Tina hit on because when you unpack genocide, the first step is dehumanization. You know, you can look at case study after case study around the world where people who had been living peaceably next to each other are next committing horrible violence against each other, dehumanization is the first step. So how we talk about other other people and what we think about them really does matter. So I think if you're feeling afraid, take a breath. Just remember that person is you know, is a red-blooded American just like you, and they just see the world a little bit differently, and and that's why we have elections, so we can kind of work these things out in in a controlled, organized fashion rather than a bazillion other horrible alternatives. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 31:46

I was just gonna refer to Ellen's question about the recruitment part of it and where we're gonna be at uh with that and what's like caused this kind of lack of of people wanting to volunteer to do this position. And I think if we go back to 2020, when you consider that the average age of an election worker in Michigan was 74, okay, and and you have a pandemic, right? So we lost a lot of our workers um in 2020 because of healthcare concerns. They were concerned about that. So as you look over the last like three to four years, um, COVID is still here. We may not be in the middle of a pandemic, um, but COVID is still here. People are still getting COVID. And I think that there is this concern that people still have, and rightfully so, for their health and being exposed, considering the fact that most of these are at an at-risk population, if you will, because of age. And so one of the things that we have seen is a new generation step up and say, hey, my mom did this or my grandma did this, and I want to do this in their place. But we need more of that. Right. Um, we need that generation that we lost um during that COVID era. We need them to be replaced with and not replace them as in push them out. But if they have chosen to not come back and work because of healthcare concerns, that someone else is willing to say, hey, I'll step up and serve in your place. I recognize this isn't maybe a safe place for you basically. So I want to be there in your place and serve. And so I think that that is kind of what we're trying to appeal to is that um it's time, right? We've leaned on our parents. My mom was an election worker for many years, um, you know, and and we had this last time. We had a three-generation um election team uh in Rochester Hills, and that was really amazing. The the granddaughter, the mom, and the grandma. And just seeing that this is kind of a generational thing to serve, just like the military service is for a lot of families, where it's very generational, so is election service. And I would love to see that promoted also, um, that this is a generational commitment of service.

SPEAKER_03: 34:03

Well, and and before I know Sheriff Smith, you were gonna say something, but I want to just tap really quick, Tina, because I say this all the time. You know, there's this idea in America for anyone who's gone to vote that a lot of the women, the people who work as poll workers are old ladies, like right. That's like people that's what people have in their head. And I always say to people, you know, we're trying to get this message out that so many veterans and military family members are poll workers. Because when you look at every one of those old ladies or old gentlemen who is working the polls, they are probably married to a veteran or served in Vietnam or before then themselves. So when you go to vote and there's an old lady and maybe she's from a party that you may not agree with or whatever, you have to look at her like she is a high likelihood that she is connected to the military in some deep way and has already been serving and has already proven that she cares a lot about this country. So if it doesn't get your heart that she cares enough to serve as a poll worker, it should grab your heart that she probably is connected through through military service as well. But Sheriff Smith, I know you were going to say something.

SPEAKER_00: 35:04

Yeah, I want to add in, and I think you've hit an important piece. You know, a critical part of this is that the veterans, by their nature, are people service-oriented, willing to step up. But the other one that I think we really have to keep in mind is trust in institutions. Any polling that we look at, and you inherently know this, over at least the last 20 years, we have seen trust in institutions across the board through the United States really tank. Now, one point we do see is it's better at the local level. People have more faith in their local government than they do as they move up the chain. It's just a reality we're dealing with. But what's the what's the one profession or one part of society that consistently is heads above the others? It's military. It's our military service. And I think that's one of the reasons that we're here with this ask is we recognize, number one, that military, you know, military veterans are people who have stood up. Secondly, that trust in institutions is there. And I think they are key to helping elections officials rebuild that trust because of their service. Secondly, at that local level, if they're there at the polling locations, they are hopefully knowing some of these individuals coming in and being recognized as a trusted individual. And if they can help transfer some of that trust back in for our elections process, I think it's it's that last step of service that they probably never recognize and have the opportunity to do, but is just as critical as time spent on the battlefield.

SPEAKER_04: 36:36

100%. 100%. And I found that same to be true both uh we just moved to Virginia this summer, but previously living in Maryland. And, you know, like Tina, like Tina and Justin just said, like it's one of the few places in American society where you have like Republicans, Democrats coming together to do something positive for the country. Um and you know, once you hit the polling place, it's just kind of ethic that you know, nobody talks politics. Like you really don't know. I mean, you know, one chief judge is a Republican and one chief judge or chief officer is a a Democrat to run the polling site, but beyond that, like nobody talks politics. And it's just kind of considered really bad form uh to do that. Um so I thought that was refreshing because it was the same thing in the military where you know I couldn't tell you most of the people I served with what party they belonged to or how they voted. We just kind of kept that to ourselves. It's like we'll we'll uh you know address that when we go to vote by absentee ballot, uh, most of us. Um but you know, it's just kind of like let's put all that aside because we got a nation to defend, we got a constitution to support. So, you know, I that was so refreshing to me um to experience that multiple times and now two states. So, you know, and my wife was doing early voting uh before the last uh election in November, and when she was pulling her shift, every single person in there was a veteran. Like all eight volunteers, you know, for early voting were all veterans. And it's funny how quickly, you know, even when they're not, how quickly you find each other, right? You know, it's like you don't you don't care, you don't you don't ask somebody what the political party is, but you know, you what service they were in. It comes up in conversation. So I think you know that's a great thing. And it's certainly, you know, um, you know, having been on active duty for two decades, I mean, we saw law enforcement, first responders, you know, uh folks who are out there protecting the community um to be part of the same trot. You know, we you know, it's just like so you know, when you talk about people you know denigrating the police and how hard it is to recruit, it's kind of like, well, if you want good police in your community and you deserve them, um you might want to support them, right? You know, it's it's not like uh uh we we can have two things. We can have a well-funded, well-trained police department that respects the law and everybody's rights, and you can't castigate an entire group of people based on you know crimes committed by onesies, twosies. Same thing in the military. We'd have you know a Marine do something stupid, uh even commit a war crime, and it's just kind of like you know, don't denigrate everybody because you know it's like um 99.99% of the people out there are risking their lives to do a a hard job to make your community a better place. So um when uh when you think about COVID and uh the debt and volunteerism, I I think that's uh an interesting thing because thanks to Tina, we kind of you know, as Ellen said, we kind of figured that out in 2022 um how great the need was. Um but can you talk to us about like um I know Ellen we talked about the need for uh for 2024, but like what other challenges are we not paying attention to in 2024 that that we should, you know, we've we need people to run, you know, and serve as county election officials. We need people to volunteer. Uh what else do we need to be paying attention to as we're going into primaries and in the general election?

SPEAKER_01: 39:49

Well, I think one of the things that um, you know, uh as we look at the number of election officials who have been threatened and harassed across the country, like I said. Um the the support that they need and the evangelists that they need to go out there and be truth tellers. But we also have to help them prepare should uh things happen that are unexpected. Um the sheriff likes to talk about planned and unplanned events that they prepare for in law enforcement. And so a lot of what we're doing is really kind of around not only the planned, you know, on one side of it, on the elections aspect of it and the processes aspect of it, but we're also looking at kind of the unplanned. And so the sheriff and I, Sheriff Smith and I travel the country a lot conducting tabletop exercises. Um, in and we've been in multiple states. I think we've been in around 26 states now just since um last summer, where um we've gone out and presented, or we have uh done regional tabletops where we bring election officials, law enforcement, stakeholders in the community, um, might be your fire department hazmat, it might be your PIO or somebody like that coming in and we're working through these scenarios of if this were to happen to you, like in my situation when I was threatened in 2020, as many election officials were, it was something we had never been through before. We were isolated, we really didn't know how to respond in that type of an environment. It wasn't anything that we'd ever been exposed to. And so what we're doing is helping go out there and support these uh election officials with these are some steps, uh, have these conversations, bring in your law enforcement, meet with them, agree on what you are going to do moving forward, sharing information with each other, perspectives that you might have, put some plans in place, a crisis communications plan, a continuation of operations plan, putting those types of things together and then putting that into practice, which is what we're doing with the tabletop exercises. And so those are things that we're helping to do with the Committee for Safe and Secure Elections that the sheriff and I are part of to help empower election officials that while COVID may have caused some to decide that they no longer want to serve, I think more so we've seen the threats and the harassment have caused a lot of election officials to say, hey, I think it's time I retire. So we're hoping that by holding these tabletop conversations, by giving them this type of information, for them to share information with each other and put plans in place, again, as I mentioned earlier, that they feel empowered to go forward and to continue to serve and that our election in 2024 will be even safer than and more secure than our election was even in 2020.

SPEAKER_04: 42:49

Nice.

SPEAKER_02: 42:49

Yeah, and Tina, you know, I love um what you just shared about contingency planning. I would say for voters, um, they can do something similar, right? Election officials, as Tina just outlined, are planning for worst-case scenarios, making sure that they're prepared. Voters can do the same thing. There are so many opportunities now to vote early, whether that's early voting in person, um if you live in a state that allows easy access to a mail ballot or automatically sends you a mail ballot, take advantage of that. Um, that actually helps. Um as ballots come in or cast um earlier, it sort of distributes, um more evenly distributes the number of voters who are voting. Um, when they all show up on election day and there is some sort of challenge or issue, um it becomes a lot bigger problem. So uh, you know, I would I I know that for a lot of folks, um, that's a really important day. They look forward to that. There's a lot of celebration around going to the polls, um getting your I voted sticker. But um there is value too in and going early and just making sure your vote's cast and nothing's gonna get in the way of that, whether that be uh, you know, a domestic challenge or natural disaster or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 44:04

So and I also like to add in that uh I think very important when you're asking, you know, what else the veterans can do, and certainly a big ask is being involved in the election process, but the other is simply to be a voice of reason. You know, we we can debate all day long the role of social media, positive or negative, and I think we recognize it can have both. But one of the things that that veterans, especially uh military combat veterans, bring to it is they they've been oftentimes in the fog of battle. They know what misinformation and disinformation, how that can create panic in a battle environment. And I imagine they all recognize those individuals out there who really stood the test. They didn't get rattled, they were able to sift through real information and bad information. And I bring that up because part of what we're seeing is a lot of things are coming up through a variety of sources to include social media. And for the military veterans who have that experience at being able to sift through is to be a voice of reason, take that quiet pause, look at what's out there, don't be an unintentional spreader of misinformation, disinformation. You know, be you know, as you mentioned, Joe, be skeptical. Let's be skeptical of anything we read out there. You know, unfortunately, as we look at faith in institutions, the faith in uh the media has gone down, and that's just a reality. But when they trust veterans and look at what's out there before you pass something on, make sure it's accurate. And secondly, is that you know, when you can show that it's not, be that person when those around you are getting wrapped up in emotion, adding to the problem. We're asking them to be that person that that says, you know, let's just take a moment, let's actually sift through the facts, let's don't convict on things we've read out there, and we can't over-emphasize the importance of being that voice of reason because that is very infectious.

SPEAKER_04: 46:01

I I love that because you're you're talking about treating your media consumption as open source intelligence gathering, you know, like you know, first reports are probably gonna be wrong. You know that um uh you know you've got to get multiple sources and confirm it against others to see if the story really adds up. So I I I love that. And I think you know, it that's the difference between bias confirmation, right? Seeking news or information just to reinforce what you already think, or actually, you know, getting news from different places and looking at it all and comparing and contrasting and said, okay, well, maybe this is what's really going on out there. And uh you know, I think that is so important, just to like be the voice of reason, press pause when when you know you feel fear coming on. I mean, it's uh you know, I think that can make a really big difference, you know. Just um and uh you know, I think based on that common experience, right? You know, I know the law enforcement community has kind of got that similar bond that that the military does. Um, and I've seen it and I've felt it. You know, we're you know, we're all in this democracy thing together. So let's let's let's start acting like adults. And if our if our national politicians are gonna be adults, so well, we can take care of our communities at the local level and maybe send better people to Washington uh to represent us. And I think that's that's the name of the game. Um let me run around the horn for like one final thought. I want to I don't want to abuse your time here this morning. So uh as you're thinking about about elections and our conversation today, what's what's your parting shot for us? And I'll start with Jennifer.

SPEAKER_02: 47:28

Wow, well, I'm just so glad to be having this conversation with you all. I think we have a lot to be hopeful. Um, I think we've got a lot of work to do, but uh just a lot to be hopeful of. Um, a lot of good things happening, a lot of good folks, organizations, people stepping up um and wanting to contribute.

SPEAKER_04: 47:50

Awesome. Thank you, Tina.

SPEAKER_01: 47:53

Well, again, thank you all for what you're doing. You know that I love Vet the Vote, um have been uh supporting for you guys for a long time and trying to promote what the work that you're doing because I think it's so critical in this time and space, not only for um the people and volunteer aspect of it, but for the messaging aspect of it. It's being so helpful for election officials. I think um, you know, for for veterans for them to know that their local election officials are also extremely patriotic individuals. They have a true love for the country, a love for service as those who are serving in our military. They are commit, they are committed that we all are operating under um you know rules and laws and regulations. We're a very rural and law-regulated uh profession, as many of um you know the military are used to operating in. And so for them to see some parallelism uh between their local election officials and between uh their service in some way and having this mutual respect for each other, how do we work together to get our country back on track, to you know, um add civility back to our conversations, to help reduce divisiveness? What are those things that we can do to work together as a community? And I think that bringing those two together is a really powerful combination, and I'm thankful that you all are doing that. So thank you so much. And to all the veterans out there, thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_04: 49:24

Awesome. No, thank you. And and just Tina, thank you for helping us shape our early thoughts with the whole vet the vote thing in 2022. It was tremendously, tremendously helpful. So, Sheriff Smith, take us home.

SPEAKER_00: 49:36

I'm just gonna end with this is an opportunity for for the veterans out there to take that long-term perspective. We all know that it's you know it's easy to do the right thing during easy times and when there's not controversy, but we're truly measured by those who will stand the gap when it's difficult. By all measures, as a nation and as a world, we're in a difficult time for a lot of reasons. And it's critical now. And I think history will look back on those who are willing to stand up, push back against uh the wrong that's being done, that the immediate, you know, knee-jerk type reactions. And to be that person, if we look back in history, it was those that made those difficult calls who were not interested in immediate gratification or recognition, but being a part of a team that did the right thing. So this is that opportunity, and again, I I appreciate uh this opportunity. Uh, and I want to thank all the veterans out there for the service that they've already given to this country and just remind them there is one more opportunity. It doesn't require you know the physical uh part, but it requires the willingness to stand up and do the right thing.

SPEAKER_04: 50:43

Yeah, absolutely. That was amazing. Absolutely love that. It gave me chills on the back of my neck. So yeah, no, I appreciate that. And and thank you all for being here. I know it's it's early, um, it's a Monday. Uh, you know, I've I I was struggling to get my brain into gear before this podcast. And uh you all have certainly warmed uh my heart and given me a lot to think about.

SPEAKER_03: 51:03

And um so thank you for oh before well before you go, before we go, I wanted to say, you know, first of all, for for um everyone listening, um, you know, we we want to thank Jennifer for her service, not only as an election administrator, but also as a military spouse and as a veteran herself, um, who has chosen to serve again in her current capacity. We want to thank Sheriff Smith, obviously, for his service, as we should thank all law enforcement who keep our country safe and people who are working our elections. And then last but not least, we want to thank Tina for her service as an election official who did not quit despite her life and family being directly threatened by extremists who somehow have forgotten a fundamental value of our democracy, is having people, according to Article 1, Section 4 of that constitution, uh, who locally run our elections. So um coming from our community, we want to thank you all for your service.

SPEAKER_04: 51:58

Absolutely. And thank you, everyone out there for listening. If you found this podcast episode interesting or useful, please share it with the people you know. This episode was co-hosted by me, Joe Plunsler, and Ellen Giftston. The audio and video were edited by Cameron King. Vet Our Democracy is a production of We the Veterans and Military Families, a 501c3 nonprofit, nonpartisan, pro-democracy organization, focused on promoting positive and patriotic civic engagement to strengthen American democracy. Find out more about us at we the veterans.us and follow us on social media and wherever you wrangle your favorite podcast. Thanks, they they