Vetted Conversations
Vetted Conversations is a podcast created by We the Veterans & Military Families to help Americans - especially the veteran community - better understand their rights and responsibilities as citizens and how they can get involved to reinforce our constitutional republic and representative democracy. We are focused on bringing Americans together to help create a more perfect union. This podcast was formerly titled Vet our Democracy and was rebranded with the launch of Season 2 to reflect our expanded goals.
Vetted Conversations
Ep. 11: How veterans can get involved in local government
Episode 11 explores how veterans can get involved in local government. Local government decisions often have a more direct impact on daily life than those at the state or federal level. We begin (1:24) with Dr. Shawn Healy, Senior Director of Policy and Advocacy at iCivics, who addresses the question, "What are our responsibilities as citizens?" (5:55). Next, Navy veteran Mike Cantwell discusses how veterans can run for local office. Finally, Garrett Cathcart, an Army veteran and executive director of More Perfect Union, shares how veterans and their families can strengthen communities through service and leadership.
For more, check us out at www.wetheveterans.us and at https://linktr.ee/vettedconversations
Welcome back to the Vetted Conversations Podcast, where we delve deep into the foundations, workings, and current challenges to the American way of self-governance. In today's confusing world, it's more important than ever to understand how our government works and how we, as citizens, can actively participate in the discussion, to safeguard our liberties, and continue freedom. Our mission is to ensure you, our listeners, have the knowledge and insights needed to become more informed and engaged citizens and active members of your communities. So let's get into it. Hello, everybody. Part of our mission here is to help increase our collective understanding of civics, namely our rights and perhaps more importantly, our responsibilities to each other as citizens in a free society. Based on your feedback from season one, we are adding a short civics discussion to each episode in season two to help better explain how our government is organized and how it is designed to work so that we can all more effectively engage with our elected and appointed officials and help create a more perfect union. Joining us today is Dr. Sean Healy, the Civics expert and the senior director for policy and advocacy at iCivics. iCivics is our nation's leading nonprofit civic education organization whose mission is to ensure the practice of democracy is learned by each new generation. Sean, it's so good to have you back to educate us today. Here's our question for today's episode. We hear a lot of talk on the news and on news shows about our rights as citizens. But what are our responsibilities as citizens of the United States?
SPEAKER_01:I think this answer is a little more subjective. Our responsibilities are really not formally defined, other than, of course, we have a responsibility to obey the laws, uh to file and pay taxes, et cetera. Um, but but uh since you asked, uh I'll I'll give you a subjective answer. I think one, we have a responsibility to vote regularly uh in elections, and not just every four years in presidential cycles. Uh I would argue the most impactful elections are local elections, and unfortunately, they have some of the lowest turnout. So uh to be regular participants in in uh voting, and then I always tell my students, uh governance happens between elections, right? And often as citizens, we we uh exercise our right to vote, and then we kind of kind of sit out the process by which uh policy is made, and of course, whether our candidates win or lose, uh the winners represent us, right? Represent all of us. And I I think we have an obligation to be engaged in that process. Um, so uh what does that mean? Um well I think on a on uh one important level, it's it's paying attention, right, to what's going on uh in government. And I think the best way to do that is is to be a regular follower of the news. And uh one one great thing in the the current context is we have more access to information than ever before. And it's really critical that we cultivate uh a diverse media diet, right? Uh where we're not just uh consuming uh information that uh confirms our worldview, but but probably information that challenges our worldview, and I think to to do our very best to seek out objective information about uh what's what's going on in our government. Um it's important we be engaged in our community. So volunteering uh is critical to that end. Uh that we be good neighbors, we exchange favors with our neighbors, uh, that we work with our neighbors to solve problems uh in communities, uh, to exercise uh our freedom of petition, right? Which is uh, I think the most underappreciated uh freedom in the First Amendment uh to our constitution, to contact legislative officials, to contact uh administrative officials, to to address issues that are important uh personal concern to us and and hopefully also to the broader community, and then to engage in these debates. In fact, I I like to say America is a debate, uh and uh but to do so in and follow the norms of civil discourse. So we can we can disagree vehemently about the issues, but but let's be uh respectful uh of one another. So those are those are just some examples I see as responsibilities of uh of citizens. Of course, they're uh they're uh responsibilities and skills that need to be taught. So these are important uh civic skills, civic behaviors, uh that that I think we need to teach and to practice regularly.
SPEAKER_03:I love it because it's a great reminder that before our ancestors were citizens, they were subjects of the King of the Island. And told what to do, right? So I think you know, if you want to choose your own course and direct the own, um direct the future of the country, then that takes involvement, and involvement takes making good decisions, and making good decisions takes education and and sound information, which which talks about like how important things like public education and libraries and a free press were to the founders of the country. So, you know, in order for us to make good decisions as citizens, we need good information upon which to do that, and you've made a great case uh for what we should do or aspire to be uh as citizens of the United States. Thank you for that. One of the main themes at Fet Our Democracy Podcast is that democracy isn't a spectator sport. In our system, we the people are the final check on power. And as one of my favorite authors, Hunter S. Thompson, once said, in a democracy, you gotta be a player. We have a guest today in studio who exemplifies this activity at the local level, and that is Mike Cantwell. Mike is a Navy veteran who also uh spent some time over at the National Geospatial Agency, but more importantly, I think, in in post-military life, he has been extremely active in his local community in an independent and nonpartisan way. So I just wanted to welcome Mike to the show today.
SPEAKER_05:Hey, thanks a lot, Joe. Uh, love everything you're doing with uh Vet the Vote.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks. No, it's it's good to have you here and good to have um Veterans for for All Americans. I know you're affiliated with that program, um, as part of the Vet the Vote Coalition for 2024. So we had Todd and Eric around the show uh recently. Hey, um one thing I'd like to start by asking you is like, what did you do for the Navy and what was your proudest moment?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so um my father was in the Air Force and uh my his last duty station was near the Naval Academy. So I was always attracted to service and um and going to the Naval Academy. Um I graduated in 1987 and served aboard uh two warships before I uh affiliated with the Navy Reserves. And um I stayed with the reserves until retiring in 2015. But I really um I really established roots in Arlington, Virginia. So I've been living in Arlington since um about uh 1993, and um living with my wife and three children, uh we moved here, and I just started getting involved in the normal things you get involved in. I did a lot of youth uh sports coaching, uh baseball, flag football, soccer, uh softball. Um, and then I I just was really attracted to you know, what can I do to help my community? So I joined my local civic association here in Arlington. We have about 30 different um you know neighborhood or civic associations. Uh so I was on the on the executive committee for a while, and then the president stepped down and I raised my hand and said, Hey, I I want to do this. So I've been the uh president of the Yorktown Civic Associ Association for about 10 years now. So we do things like um you know, we figure out what's going on in our community. Sometimes we meet with our local elected leaders, and sometimes we write letters, sometimes we speak in front of the Arlington County Board, and just um really get involved at the really, really local level. So citizens will stop by. I live right on a pretty main road here in Arlington, and I'll be pulling weeds in the front yard, and they'll stop by and say, uh, hey Mike, we got a really big problem with uh you know speeding through the neighborhood or graffiti or hey, the school says they're gonna expand. What about parking? Um, and so I meet with my executive committee, we come up with various uh policy positions, and then we write letters and go to the Arlington County Board. So I've I've really found that I really like it, and um and I'm really pretty good at it. So uh I really encourage other veterans to consider uh serving at their local level.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. No, that that's uh, you know, I think part of you know understanding civics and our rights and responsibilities as citizens is how to uh petition our elected officials, right? You know, it's written into the Constitution that that's that's uh a right of all Americans and freedom of assembly being another one. Uh what from your military background kind of led you in that direction? Like, was there anything that you can think of that that made you want to serve your community again?
SPEAKER_05:Well, it probably goes back a little bit to my childhood. I mean, I just distinctly remember my parents, you know, it'd be a little bit annoying because they'd want to watch both the 630 news and the 730 news, and I couldn't watch my uh, you know, Hogan's Heroes or some of the other reruns and everything. Um, but my parents were always up on current events and civic affairs. Um and just uh I would say being in service, being being in the mil, you know, the Naval Academy, in the military, um, it's it's like part of your DNA. You want you want to give back. Um, and then just the leadership abilities, um, being able to form a coalition, being able to uh make things happen, being able to inspire others to act um is something that we all learn in the military, and and I I I think I was pretty effective at it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, and that that speaks to me as well. I think one of the you know the strengths of military service is how as an institution, it takes people from all over the country, geographic regions, all walks of life, and it's one place where I see people at a massive scale setting apart their differences and focusing on a common goal of supporting and defending our constitution. So um, you know, that makes a lot of sense to me. But the other thing that you said uh about getting involved at the local level, um, you know, I think is really important because a lot of veterans, you know, decry the military-civilan gap. It's just kind of, you know, they're like, oh, you know, America, we've been at war for two decades and people don't understand us or our experience. And rather than commiserating with them, one of the first things I like to do is kind of turn that around a little bit and be like, hey, if if if you feel like there's a gap, what steps have you taken towards your community? And that usually gives them a little bit of pause to think because I'm like, if you're waiting for them to come to you, you're gonna be waiting a long damn time. So if you're looking for tribe, you're looking for connection, that's up to you. What do you think about that? I mean, what are your what are your experiences with with veterans transitioning out of the military and then trying to find that same sense of purpose and belonging uh in the local community?
SPEAKER_05:Well, first of all, I would start with your local veteran service organization. Um I'm very involved in my local VFW. It's a great, we have a great sense of community. I I host a monthly um uh Jeopardy style trivia night that's a whole bunch of fun. People in the local neighborhood come in. I mean, we you know we bring them in as guests. Uh, it's a great time. Um, but also petitioning local elected officials. I noticed that we don't we don't have a a parade here in Arlington for Fourth of July or for Memorial Day. Um, I've never seen one of the Arlington County Board members attend any of any of the commemoration events in Arlington, which is is really just you know you know shocking in a certain way. I've never seen them attend the wreath laying ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery. Um, you know, yeah, maybe they couldn't be with the president doing it, but they could probably be in the third row in the background, um, especially when we have a president of the same party. So I think I've made a little bit of inroads there. We have we have some new county board members who have heard my pleas for this and have shown up uh while they were campaigning at a wreath laying ceremony um here in Arlington. So hopefully we'll make a little bit of change and and get the elected officials to participate in some of these events.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, and that makes sense. And and you know, some of my fondest memories since departing the military in the civilian space have been, you know, where my local town was like, hey, can you come and give this speech for Memorial Day this year or Veterans Day? Um, and that was kind of a fun way to engage people and also um, you know, get to know the people who live around you a little bit better.
SPEAKER_05:Um, you may for be familiar with uh in this area of uh wreaths across America. So it's a fantastic event in early December where um tens of thousands of wreaths are laid at Arlington National Cemetery. And I've been participating in that for several years. It's it's a wonderful event, and they have these at all the national cemeteries throughout the country. But shouldn't an Arlington County board member be participating in that also and taking a few pictures and putting it on their social media? To me, those are you know minimum things that they can do that doesn't cost them a dime, just a maybe a few hours of their time, right? So uh hopefully some of them will see this and uh be inspired to participate in some of these events.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it reminds me of a saying we had in in the Marines was like you show you you show what's important as a leader by where you put your body, right? Where do you show up? So I think you know that's that's a good good reminder for anyone um serving in elected office today. When we talk about running for office, and I know you ran and ran as an independent, I want to go into that a little bit because when you know in the military, kind of discussing partisan politics is is just not done. It's kind of unseemly um definitely looked down upon. At least that was my experience in the Marine Corps, you know, we had a saying if your troops know your politics, then you're you're failing as a leader. So um, you know, I think a lot of that carries over with veterans into civilian life where you know some of us have a healthy distrust of people who want that type of power. Uh some of us just um have an ick factor when it comes to like the partisan infighting. Um but when we look at the local level, right? Like I'm talking county, town, and and on down, um, most of those places, most municipalities are not partisan offices, right? So can you talk to me a little bit about that? Because I think if more veterans knew that um you didn't have to run as a Republican or Democrat for these offices, they might be more likely to get involved. And I just want to take your thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_05:So, under current Virginia law, and I think this is probably the same throughout the country, um local offices are by law nonpartisan. And what that means is that your name appears on the ballot, and there is no I, D, or R or G next to your name. Um and uh they can still have some sort of primaries or caucus or something to determine who the party nominee is, but on that general election ballot, um your party affiliation will not appear. So once I learned that and I really studied the hatch act, because at the time I was a federal government employee in the intelligence community, and the hatch act says that's even an extra, extra layer of you know being careful on what you do. So I contacted the hatch people and I said, Look, I'm really thinking about running for Arlington County Board as an independent. And I read the Hatch Act. I think I'm good on this, but you can you please write me a letter saying that I'm within the law, you know, kind of my get out of jail free uh card, right? So they weren't they they wrote this wonderful, you know, legal opinion with you know, sub, you know, all the all the legal ease that you would say, like, yep, you can run for Arlington County Board as an independent. There's nothing stopping you. You know, the only things you can't do is you can't solicit your employees for money and you can't uh you know do various things. I'm like, yep, I'm all good with that, right?
SPEAKER_03:And for for the audience out there who might be unfamiliar with the Hatch Act, could you just give us a couple sentences about like what Sure.
SPEAKER_05:Um by the way, I'm a huge fan of the Hatch Act. Um so basically it says that um that federal government employees cannot engage in partisan political activities, and they define what these partisan political activities are. So holding fundraisers, uh, you know, what you say, what you do online. And it usually will prevent a federal government employee from running for a partisan office. So you know, you can't have a federal government employee for running for U.S. Senate or for president. You can't even have them run for state uh delegate or state senator, because as you probably know, is that all election laws are run from the state, right? Um not run federally. And but uh so so but you're usually pretty good, even if you're a federal government employee, that you can run for local office as long as it's non-partisan uh local office. But if it's a you know, it's been around for a long time, and um unfortunately there are politicians who violate it uh frequently, and um, I do think it needs to be updated a little bit for that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but but the positions that you're talking about, like county board of commissioners, mayor, treasurer, registrar, dog catcher, right? Like these are like local um positions that really, maybe more than state or federal positions, affect the daily lives of the people that live in that town more than anything.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and let me tell you a little bit about my decision to run and then a little bit about my campaign. So here I was, I'm I'm really active in my community. I'm the president of the Yorktown Civic Association, which is a geographical place within Arlington. I I represent approximately a thousand households in this uh geographic area. And um and and and I just felt that I had a good feel for what the citizens of this area cared about. And so we had an incumbent Democrat, we had kind of a right-leaning independent, and then kind of a left-leaning independent. So it was kind of a little bit bizarre because we had one Democrat and three independents running. And um, and then I ran I did everything you need to do to run a successful campaign. I mean, I I I you know did my friends and family phone calls and emails saying, hey, can you donate some money to my campaign? I, you know, did yard signs, I did flyers, um, but the and then I did a lot of debates. Um, so we had six debates during this time. Wow. And you know, I had a website, did all the um getting enough signatures to run. So the bar is pretty low in Arlington. I needed to get 125 signatures to get my name on the ballot. That's not unreasonable. Some places around the country are completely unreasonable for independent candidates or other third party candidates. That's something that hopefully the democracy movement can help and everything.
SPEAKER_03:Um so if in some communities what you're telling me is if if you run as an independent, then you have to get way more signatures than you do if you're affiliated with
SPEAKER_05:It is shocking in some parts of the country the barriers to entry for independent or third party candidates. It's um, you know, parties have their own nomination methods, but in my opinion, it should be reasonable, easy for anyone to run for political office in America, is is how I feel.
SPEAKER_03:And again, those are more like the state and on up positions typically.
SPEAKER_05:They are, but it can even go down to the lower level where they just raise the barrier so high. And um, yeah, it's just really, really bad. But you know, again, I really hope people reach out to me if they want to run as an independent and have any questions. Um, I'm available for that. And um, so I it was really a I mean, I really enjoyed it, first of all. I love talking to, you know, knocking on doors is the is the is the is the greatest thing. It's great about America, you know, listening to people's concerns or what they care about. And here's another thing that I think is really important for your listeners to is that if you're running as a Republican, you are given a list from your party on the p on the doors you should knock, right? They only care about you knocking on Republican doors. So you will literally get a list of addresses and you'll you'll skip this house, you'll skip that house. Um because they don't care if that you they don't want you to talk to independents or democrats. And I'm I'm like, this is crazy. Um, I would go to a neighborhood with my flyers and I would knock on every door, one after the other after the other, right? Yeah, because and and when I would go to a farmer's market or something, I didn't ask people if they're a Republican or a Democrat. I asked you, asked them if they resided in Arlington, right? So they were a registered voter. So I think we need to get back to that where anyone running for public office is talking to all voters, not just voters in their party.
SPEAKER_03:That makes sense. Yeah. I wonder if the the D side does the same thing. Oh, absolutely. They totally do.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Totally do.
SPEAKER_03:Um so so if like where do I get started? Like if if I'm out here listening and I'm like, you know what, um, Mike's right, maybe I should look into public service in my community. What's the first step?
SPEAKER_05:Well, first of all, get get involved in in everything at your local level. I I just I received two emails today because I'm the president of the Yorktown Civic Association. They they are begging people to join committees and commissions, right?
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:So you got your planning committee, you have your you know, public service committee, you have your police oversight committee, um, and they you know they can't find citizens to do it. Yes, it takes time out of your day. It's you know, but it's really, really important work. Uh, zoning, um, uh pedestrian safety, transportation, these are all committees that most local governments have. So I would start start with that. Is there is there a civic association that you know similar to what I have? Are there other things? Dip your toe in the water with some of those before you run for office. Because let's be frank, there's a there's a little bit of an ego factor of people running for office. Um and that there are and then there are some like crazy reasons like somebody's a real estate agent and they know if they get their name on the ballot, it'll help them get business or something like that. You don't want to be that person, right? Right, right. And and then there are some military people who run for Senate or something, and they have zero experience running for lower-level elected office, or more importantly, serving in lower-level elected office. So so um, but last year I did uh form an organization called Independence for America, and anybody can Google it online, and and I'm all about telling the stories of local and state independent candidates, and and also helping independent candidates uh running for office. So uh I do think it's really important to hear the stories of people who ran, won, and are now serving. And then there are many of these people are veterans, so it's important to hear their stories and then give them the help they need uh in their campaigns.
SPEAKER_03:Uh you know, that that's that that's interesting, and I think you you have a growing population of independents too. This is interesting. I saw before our talk uh pulled up a recent Gallup poll. So this was reported out well, April of 2023, so a little bit dated, but the data is interesting. So in 2004, 35% of Americans identified as Democrats, 33% as Republicans, and 31 as independents. And then you fast forward almost 20 years, so 2023, both Republicans and Democrats' affiliations have decreased down to 25%, while independents are now up to 49%, right? So 31% in 2004, up to 49%. I mean, what that's telling me is half of America is unaffiliated with the political party. They might lean in one direction or another, but consider themselves to be independents, myself included.
SPEAKER_05:So I mean it it is uh the largest growing quote political party that we have. The Republicans and the Democrats are shrinking, whereas independents are rising. And it's really important to think about that. Uh, but here's another little date, you know, anecdote from my knocking on doors is I never had a door slammed in my face because I wasn't wearing a red t-shirt and I wasn't wearing a blue t-shirt. And they would normally give me a few minutes of their time to say, and I got a lot of, oh, I'm so glad you're an independent. I'm an independent too, and and all that kind of stuff. Uh uh, but there are challenges to running as an independent. You don't have the infrastructure, you don't have the donations, you don't have the money. And in Arlington, it's even harder. Um, and I hope to change this over the next few years, but but every every uh every county board member is elected at large. So there's 240,000 people in 24 square miles in Arlington. So me getting my message out to 240,000 people is really, really difficult. If we had districts, I really think I could win Northwest Arlington, right? So if I could if I could only uh target my message to Northwest Arlington, I think I could win. So this is the you know, things that I want your listeners to really understand is the nuances of you know, what's at large, what's what's districts, and and how does that affect uh your ability to win an election?
SPEAKER_03:That makes sense, yeah, because it's easier to communicate with 80,000 people than 240,000, right?
SPEAKER_05:Um absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:And depending on geography and I mean there's so many, you know, in large municipalities, large counties, you know, one part can be very, very different from the other. You know, like um, you know, I mean even thinking about here where you know we've got a smattering of towns, but most of it's rural, you know, like the interests of folks are are very different, right? You know, the farmers are more thinking about ranching and farming and issues and water rights and all the rest of it. Uh folks in the city might be thinking more about I don't know, parking, paving, you know, things like that. So um yeah, no, that makes sense. Um so the first step is kind of get involved in the community, you know, join the chamber of commerce if you're a business person, you know, check out the local civic organizations.
SPEAKER_05:Well, PTA and and PTA and and youth sports coaching, right? So I had a lot of people, I I like pulled out my you know list of of my kids' t ball team from 10 years ago and I started emailing them, right? Uh because uh and they were people who trusted me with their children, right? So maybe I can trust you with my children, maybe I can trust you to uh you know run for Arlington County Board.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, for sure. Um and then so once per somebody decides to pull the trigger on this and say, okay, well, you know, I'm in, I'm gonna run for city council, I'm gonna run for county board of commissioners, like what's the next step?
SPEAKER_05:Well, it's it's really great in America that um most of the small you know cities and counties around the country, you know, they have a director of elections, they have a website, and usually they have very clear instructions on what it takes to run for office. And then at the state level, they also have the infrastructure to tell you what you have to do. So yeah, you have to you have to uh file forms and you have to open a bank account, you have to uh collect um petition signatures uh of citizens that reside there to to run. And then you need to kind of create a team and and get enough volunteers and um you know hold hold fundraisers, just be out and about a lot, go to farmers markets, knock on doors. But none of this is insurmountable. A lot of a lot of people in our country sadly um are really it's a such a defeatist mode, and they and they think that they can't do anything about it. Um and you know, there are a lot of things in our a lot of things that are not even in our constitution, as you know, Joe. Um political the word political parties are not even in the Constitution. And one of our best presidents, George Washington, was our last independent president. Um, and Abraham Lincoln was our last third party uh president, right? So um we have some good uh representatives of of what it's like when people are independent or a third party. Uh primaries are not in the Constitution. Uh, so that's really important. And I'd I'd love to talk a little bit about the primary problem if you if you have a few moments and some of the solutions to the primary problem.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, let's dive in because I'm I'm curious, like, especially, you know, I know in the state of Virginia it's open primaries, so you know, I got to pick which party's primaries I wanted to vote in this year. But you know, in places that aren't, it's kind of like why are the voters paying for a private club to select their candidate, right? So I mean, like, yeah, I want to hear your thoughts on this. Like the primary problem as you see it.
SPEAKER_05:So several years ago, I I I got involved in an organization called Unite America. And uh this organization is run by an amazing young man named Nick Troiano. And um over the last few years, they did a lot of deep study, they got a lot of smart people on the staff, and they realized that the biggest problem we have are partisan primaries. And um partisan primaries uh haven't been around our whole lot, you know, our whole uh history of our country. It's not in the constitution. Uh in the old days, there would be uh party bosses and smoke-filled rooms who would select the nominee for for a political party, you know, both at the federal, state, and and local levels. Some people thought that we needed to reform that and we needed to have more citizen input in that. And so they said, well, let's have these things called primaries. And and so people in originally it was a little bit more democratic, a little bit more, but over the years it became completely warped. And Nick and others have determined that it is the biggest problem are our partisan primaries. So um across the country, I'll just stay at the federal level, is that is that some states have closed primaries, so you have to register with a political party in order to vote in a party primary. And then there are open primaries like Virginia, where you can show up on election day and say, hey, I want to I want a Republican ballot or a Democratic ballot, but you don't have to register ahead of time. But then we have the innovators like Alaska who have have uh created a new system, uh, which we like calling the Alaska model, which is non-partisan primaries. So how that works is um is that everyone running for a certain office um gets put on the primary ballot list, and and then voters just choose their their top choice, and then the top four for from the primary go on to the general election. So um it is not uh partisan, it is a non-partisan primary. And Nick and others believe that this is so important to our reforming our political system. So in that election in 2022, um Lisa Murkowski, who is a moderate Republican senator, longstanding, been in office for a long time, um, she she made it to the top uh four for the general election, and then and then she was re-elected as a senator. Most people think if she had to run in a partisan Republican primary, she would probably lose because she would be it's it's now a verb, she would have been primaried from her right, and she probably would have not been um made it through her primary, her partisan primary. Um and then uh for the state representative, the entire state of Alaska only has one representative, and so um they went through this process. We had some people you may have heard of, like Sarah Palin was on the ballot, but because of uh nonpartisan primaries and ranked choice voting, um the people of of Alaska were able to better express their their choices, and they ultimately selected a moderate Democrat to fill that seat. Um and some people say, oh, well, this caused the Republicans to lose. It really is is a common sense reform that doesn't favor any political party. It what it does is it it more closely responds to the majority of of the of the voters.
SPEAKER_03:I I love that because I think it also helps drive the conversation towards the center where most Americans are, right? You know, and you know, I think we've got the arguably the best system of elections in the world, you know, as a as a poll worker and uh election official in in the state of Virginia now, um, I'm definitely biased, but you know, based on my experiences, what I've seen in the state of Maryland previously, and then now in Virginia, you know, I feel really good about like any citizen going to the polls, their vote's gonna count and it's gonna be accurately tabulated and tallied. I I think the greater problem is where you're talking about is like the system by which you know we have the menu of choices, right? Because right now, you know, if I'm believing looking at this Gallup poll, essentially we have you know one political party that represents about 25% of the country and another one that represents the other 20% serving up candidates for 100% of us to choose from. And you know, it's just kind of like what happens if if um I don't really find a home in either political party, you know. Um I I you know, then I just have to hold my ho nose and pick you know from the least bad choice, where this system seems like it's gonna offer like some really optimistic choices uh about candidates, right? You know, if you know, I think you know in our system of economics, like more competition is better and typically serves the consumer more. And you know, I think Todd said, hey, you know, we would never allow a duopoly in business, but here we are in politics um and elections, allowing you know two political parties basically to run everything.
SPEAKER_05:So um absolutely. And I've been involved in this political reform movement for many years now. And when you know we have new volunteers coming in to veterans for all voters, um, you know, I give them a PowerPoint deck of hey, this is what this is how you get involved. The first thing I have, the first bullet is get smart, right? Meaning, you know, understand the nuances of our political process, of our election process. So many people don't even understand what a caucus is or a primary is and how they're different. Many people don't understand open primaries and closed primaries. Some people don't even understand uh what a board of supervisor member does. And your local government is like probably the most important thing because they're your local taxes and your police and your firefighters and your safety and your zoning. All that is done at the local level. So we have a lot of people in this country. It's a very sad thing that that have they don't understand and they have no interest in understanding, which I just think is is shocking that you don't have the curiosity. Um, and then they get radicalized because they think that their voices aren't heard, um, but they don't even understand the system of how it works. And and things like primaries are not in the constitution, so we have the agency to change those either either through the state legislature or through uh through ballot initiatives, and and we really need people to get mobile mobilized and activated in a positive way. I mean, obviously, we don't want people uh you know raising arms uh in their elections, uh we want them to get involved in more civic uh activities.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, as the founders of the country intended. So I think um you've given a lot us a lot to think about today. So just to kind of recap, if if uh for the listeners out there who are interested, maybe even as a result of this conversation, to consider uh running for local elected office, uh, where can they find out more?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'm gonna mention a few um organizations. Um Veterans for All Voters. I encourage everybody to uh take a look at that online. Uh another organization is called New Politics. And New Politics provides campaign training for anyone who has served, right? So it could have been the military, it could have been the Peace Corps, it could have been Teach for America. Uh they're an amazing organization that provides extremely high-level training for anyone that wants to run for office. Uh and then, and then even other organizations like the League of Women Voters. Um, you know, they're a wonderful organization too. And all these organizations need a diverse group of people to join. Um, I I love my League of Women Voters uh ladies, but a lot of them are older and whiter, right? Right. So we need other people to join these organizations and get involved. The other great thing about this pro-democracy movement is we form these great coalitions, right? So you know we we all show up in Richmond and we're you we're representing different organizations, but we're all for a common mission, which is to uh help our democracy.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. I think that's a great thought to end on, Mike. We really appreciate your time and your wisdom and knowledge today. You've given us a lot to think about. So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_05:All right, Joe, it's uh great to be a guest on your show, and um I really hope more people get involved in our democracy.
SPEAKER_03:In order to help strengthen American democracy, we run into thousands of people and hundreds of organizations who are all doing their part to make their bit of America better for everyone. So that to that end, we're gonna start highlighting partner organizations and their leaders to bring them to your attention. And there are many ways to serve our country after leaving the military. And there are many great groups across our country who can use your talents and your energy. There's an old saying that if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. And when we challenge ourselves in 2022 to help America close 120,000 deficit in election poll workers, we banded together with like minded people, formed Vet the Vote, and recruited the next generation. Of American election poll workers. You know what? More than 63,500 of you responded. Today we're spotlighting one of our newest members of the Vet the Vote Coalition, More Perfect Union. More Perfect Union is a nationwide movement to strengthen our communities and heal our country by creating meaningful connections through service and leadership. And joining us today for More Perfect Union is U.S. Army Combat Veteran and co-founder and executive director, Garrett Cathcart. Garrett's a leader among post 9-11 veteran organizations. Prior to joining More Perfect Union, he served as the founding executive director of Mission Roll Call, which is a nationwide organization that provides veterans a powerful and unified voice in public policy, and as the first Southeast Regional Director of Veteran Service Organization Team Red, White, and Blue, which many of you know. Garrett served nine years in the U.S. Army as a cavalry officer and as a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Endurian Freedom in Afghanistan. Garrett, welcome.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks so much for having me. Sorry I had a mute there. I'm excited to be here and talk to you guys.
SPEAKER_03:We're excited to have you here, sir. What can you tell us a little bit about yourself and like what led you to uh to this work?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I never would have thought I'd be a uh a nonprofit guy, certainly, or working in democracy uh or veteran service uh before that. But uh I grew up in Indiana, uh in Indianapolis, and uh even as a small kid, I I loved reading and was a bit of a nerd. And in the third grade, I told my mom, I've read all these books about military leaders. I'm like, I read this thing called West Point. I said, Mom, I'm gonna go to West Point. And I told her the third grade, she kind of patted me on the head. Um, but I never ended up losing that dream. And so uh ended up applying to one college, which was uh West Point, got in. Uh and then 9-11 was my sophomore year. Uh and so kind of dramatically obviously changed uh the course of the direction. Actually, my room, my roommate and I tried to quit West Point in the list because we thought we were gonna miss the war. Uh and our my tactical officer was like, You're an idiot, Cathcard. Go back to class. I was like, Yes, sir. Uh, and how how right he was to this day. Uh, but also obviously, you know, the 20 some odd year wars and both. And so um I got commissioned and uh went into armor branch and then subbranch has cavalry, which is reconnaissance and direct action. Uh, and so kind of straight out of West Point after all the schools, my first job besides mowing lawns for for cash was as a scalpel leader in Baghdad during the surge. Um and that was uh kind of my crucible year, hard year. Um company commander killed in action. I was in an ambush, and four of my own soldiers were killed in action in a pretty traumatic way, and uh, I recovered the remains, and then on and on for the rest of the year. And then my best friend from West Point was killed in action. And so, you know, that was kind of the beginning of the career, and then you train up for a year and you come home, and it was second year, I was supposed to be a staff officer, and uh the squadron commander comes out and is like, Garrett, you suck at making slides. I'm like, Yes, sir. Uh and he's like, We need a major to like go train the Iraqi army and live with him. I was like, Okay, sir. I was a young captain, I was really putting one and one together. He's like, Garrett, I'm asking you, do you want to go live with the Iraqi army and operate? I was like, Yes, sir. So I got I left the office and got to live with the Iraqi army for my second year in Iraq and um tried to quit the army a couple times. And the first time they threw away my paperwork, and they told me I was gonna command a cavalry troop in Afghanistan. I said, I can't say no to that. So I stayed in and got to lead a lot of 128 guys in Afghanistan for a year and came back and was ended up being aide to a two-star. But uh, all that to get to where I am now, I got out of the army and I was talking to some folks uh in the government for other jobs who ended up following a girl to LA, as you do, and uh moved to Orange County, got a job in med device sales in Beverly Hills, so straight from Afghanistan and Army to Beverly Hills. Wow, shock attention. Uh you know, I'm telling neurosurgeons my stories and making them laugh, and orthopedic surgeons selling my back screws, and then I'm standing in operating rooms at Cedar Sinai like during surgery. I'm like, dude, what is happening? I have no background in sales or science or medicine. Um, and very quickly I was you know pretty unhappy. Um and so I was like, dude, what why am I unhappy? I'm living in this awesome spot, great gig, going out with these docs, having a good time. And then ironically, a guy I met once in Afghanistan calling me out of the blue, a guy named Joe Quinn, who's now one of my best friends. He formerly led Headstrong, but he was sent out to study me because I had made friends with a bunch of Afghan uh militia Bujadin fighters and convinced them to fight um outside of the traditional kind of channels. And he said, Cathcart, come come help us build this thing-called team RWB. It's like for veterans. I was like, Joe, I like you, buddy, but I don't want to be poor and I don't really care about veterans, so appreciate you, man. And then I went and like volunteer, I worked out with him in LA and I was like, oh man, this is what I miss is making fun of Navy dudes, like work community, the work I didn't know the words at the time, right? Purpose, camaraderie, help, you know, service to others. And so that kind of began my career where I'm in now in nonprofit leadership. Um, and from there I was asked by one of the funders of RWB to build this new organization called Mission Roll Call, um, which is policy focused. And by the end of that, you know, I could text 1.3 million veterans by zip code and ask some questions. So, you know, that means I could text by congressional district and uh got the attention of a lot of lawmakers. Uh, and then I could kind of pause there and we get into the genesis of more perfect union.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, that's what we want to hear next. So, so you go from um med device sales, uh, which I can imagine was an unbelievable culture shock, um then um you were you were kind of you were exposed to some different hospitals between there and your uh military career. And and yeah, and and but but then okay, so so you've done now a couple of of organizations in nonprofit. Um how and and why uh did you get involved and help to stand up more perfect union?
SPEAKER_00:That's a great question. And I'll it all go comes back to a guy named Jake Harriman, who's uh who's uh the founder uh and an awesome dude. Um, you know, briefly on his story, he did a lot of work in Africa in a place called Neuru International, which was veterans and aid workers into some denied areas and hard areas to prevent terrorism through providing employment, right, and preventing poverty. He comes back after living abroad for seven or eight years, uh, and he comes back to the US in like 2016 or 15 for the first ever presidential leadership scholars program. He looks around, he's like, dude, what happened to this country? Yeah, I haven't been here in eight years, and you guys hate each other's guts. This is insanity. Uh, and so it was his original idea let's we let's use veterans somehow to bring America back together because veterans are the only ones, it's the only respected institution left, right? Still pulls up at 70% that everyone, you know, at least mildly respects and will listen to for a minute or two. And so this is how he was he's smart. He's like, Garrett, I heard you built some stuff with RDBB and mission roll call, let's do a couple calls. Can you give me some advice? Like by the third or fourth call, I was like, Come to DC, I love what you're telling me, tell me more. Uh, and by the fourth one, he's like, Do you want to do this for me? The plan you just told me. I was like, the whole time he was recruiting me, not me giving him advice, which was kind of genius. Um, it's like, this is crazy, but I love it, and I'm in. And so it is, you know, we are not a veteran organization, we're an organization for all Americans, but it is led by veterans in the first phase to as a convening authority. And so that was the idea is how do we get veterans to lead in their communities, get people to connect in real life through service projects, civic engagement, leadership development, and then have some real authentic conversations to get to know each other uh in order to depolarize and kind of turn down the temperature of the country.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah, I I love that because you know, I think we are the United States last I checked, and we're typically do our best when we come together to collaborate and build consensus around the hard problems, which we see precious little of um in Washington these days. And you're right, like you know, among both um both sides of the political spectrum, veterans still carry uh tremendous regard within the country. And that's something that that Ellen and I, and I know you uh uh and Jake uh really want to defend, right? You know, that that center space and the reputation of our community because it's just so important for many, many reasons. Um Can you tell us a little bit more about more perfect union? And you had a term in our last conversation about brickyards. Like what are those? And and you know, could you uh paint us the picture about what the purpose is and how they how they run?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I mean you hit our mission, right? We are a veteran-led movement to to heal the country and create connection through our three pillars of service, civics, uh, and leadership development. So a brickyard is our work for chapter, right? It is in any city that there's a brickyard, there's a leadership team, all volunteer, led by veterans, but also on their leadership staff, leaders in the community that are not veterans, right? And usually we encourage from diverse backgrounds because that's how you know the magic sauce is that you show up and there's a diversity of people in the room. Otherwise, what's the point, right? Uh, and so at every event that we do, uh you know, the the model is we do a connection event, we build trust and rapport and relationships through one of our three pillars of service, civics, or leadership. And you know, that is really on the brickyard leader. That takes the form of, you know, in Atlanta, we we built a house with habitats of humanity and then sat down to a meal. They've done in in DC, they've you know gone to the Smithsonian and have a conversation about what they saw and why. Um Chicago, you know, they they've done a uh like drive for for students. I think in Colorado they just had a coffee with a police department and marginalized communities. And so we're really a platform for leaders and we provide resources, aka dollars, right? And also um structure. But after we connect, we sit down and we have what we call a healing conversation over usually really good food, right? Because it's it's hard to be mad and hard to not have a good time when you're eating something amazing and drinking some good stuff. And so all those conversations are based around our core values. Um, and there's and our most popular uh has been around uh our core value of hope. It's just three questions a conversation around the American dream. And it's just like, Joe, what what's the American dream mean to you? It's designed to pull out stories, and who are you? And you know, this is what it means to me. And you know, Ellen, what's who's someone that personifies that to you? And you know, the answers you get from me is it's my grandmother, it's this person, this guy is certain person I served with. Um, and so like we don't explicitly talk about like, you know, I love Braver Angels, I go to their stuff, but it's a different model. Like, I'm on the red team, you're on the blue team. Let's talk about you know the Second Amendment. This is I want to get to know Ellen and Joe as human beings and where you're from, right? And then I'll later I'll find out you're a certain pillow of space. I'm like, really? But that guy's awesome. I didn't know that he was you know, red team or blue team. And so that's kind of the art and science of it. It's a simple, simple thing we do is getting people together and building relationships, but in practice, incredibly difficult. Yeah, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, go ahead, John. I was gonna say, I mean, that's it's so what's so true. I mean, I'm I'm you know, living the the that life, right? I'm a I'm a military spouse, my husband's active duty. I do not live in a friendship silo like a lot of people I know. I don't live in a media silo. And, you know, I I meet someone who I'm connected with because of, you know, my my husband's job in the military and our mil in our military unit or commander where we live. And there are 15 other things I get from that person before I find out their politics. Like, uh, you know, before I have followed them on Instagram and see what kind of stuff they post, I'm like, can you take care of my kids? Do we need to make meals for someone who just had a baby? You know, what's going on in the unit? Are we doing a walk for someone who's who's passed away? Like, that's we get we do all that before we even think about politics. And we're lucky.
SPEAKER_00:Is taking those notes and those lessons. Some of our best leaders, frankly, are military spouses that we send, um, all of our leaders we send to the University of Montana where we train them on a four or five-day fellowship in Missoula. Um, but that's a community, and it's right, like, hey, someone's sick, so they need a casserole, or can I pick, right? It's that's what we do. Someone who's a friend, right? And it's not, do you watch my new station, right? Can I trust you? We build the trust ahead of time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. So what's 2024? What's in store for 2024 for more perfect union?
SPEAKER_00:I'm not sure if you know this or not, but there's a f a presidential election in 2024 where it's going to be chaos. And so um 2024 is really about building the foundation infrastructure to be able to have national impacts, right? And that is not only in cities that we're in, brick and mortar cities, I call them, where brickyards are, that'll be 33 cities in 2024. That that those are people, volunteer leaders, and leadership development um teams in every city that we're in. But also what we're developing programming. So if you don't live in one of those 33 cities, how do you get involved in real life? You get your shirt in the mail, you do you do programming where you live, right? One of our most popular has been this uh the coffee club where we we buy the coffee and you invite people just to drink coffee and ask about who they are. It's not the whole the whole model, it's a smaller version of kind of outreach. But 24 is we've got some templates of cities we want to go, like the most polarized, the most politically homogenous, meaning all left or all right. Um but also one of the biggest programs I'm I'm proud of is we have a really big rural program. Um, rural America is half of the country, right? And traditionally it's really hard to get into. Uh my grand my grandfather was a farmer in Small Town, Indiana. My dad is from a town called Seymour, Indiana, which is the town that John Mellencamp's from and wrote the song Small Town About. Um, and so I grew up in the big city of Indianapolis. So like I've got a heart for both. Um, but we've got an incredible leader, a Marine Colonel who's a special operations battalion commander who lives in Idaho, who's running all of our rural programs. And he's got he's building things in Idaho and uh eastern Oregon and growing from there into Wyoming, and we've got places in Indiana. And so getting to rural America and connecting them to the rest of the country is something I'm excited about and proud of because it's it's hard to do, right? I mean, similar to the military community and other communities, those are tight communities, and outsiders aren't really who are you and what do you want? Is the first question, right? And so um they just drove uh one of our program managers, Triple Connell and Vaughn, just drove from Boise and did like this five-day road trip all through rural America almost on a listening tour, meeting people, hearing them, and two of those two of those folks want to start brickyards now. And so, but is that that literal work of you know going to places, sitting in diners, meeting people, and asking them what they think that that's the kind of the seeds of our growth?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and doing it from a position of curiosity, right? That's right, curiosity. Human connection and curiosity. It's not like I'm coming in here to have a debate, I'm coming in here to like challenge my own beliefs and better understand your point of view. Right. What's important to you?
SPEAKER_00:What's important to this town, right? It's not always politics, right? You know, I mean, where's Enterprise Alabama at a few years ago? The Bull Weevil Festival, right? I mean, all these beautiful things across the country that you would never know about until you talk to someone who's there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, I love it because you know I think you're a natural fit for a partner with us um on many levels, but especially around bringing people together to serve the community and get to know each other and civics, which leads to my next question. Uh, why was it important for y'all to join the vote this year for 2024?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, civic engagement. I mean, literally participating in the democracy, and it's dramatic, but true that we fought for, right? Like it's as I learned in my Beverly Hills days, veterans need purpose, right? Like, like we need community, we need purpose. There is no greater purpose for a veteran than to help preserve the democracy that we fought and bled for, right? And that sounds dramatic, but it's I mean, viscerally true. If we're questioning election integrity, if we're, you know, there's political violence, like that is not our country. That's some third world country stuff, right? And so, I mean, what a what a beautiful thing if you walk into a for a veteran to physically literally participate in democracy, but if you're a citizen engaging in voting, you see a veteran of the armed forces, like it gives you a sense of peace, I hope, right? Like this person is trusted, they're trained, they care, they've already sacrificed for this that I'm doing, right? I respect them, and so it fits beautifully within our civics uh pillar. And so um, yeah, I think in Michel Roll, I was even excited about it. We sent it out um my previous organization, but there is something beautiful about literally participating in democracy uh and about helping to bring a calm and a peace and leadership to the churches and libraries around the country that people voted.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, we we agree. And it's so true, you know, uh, that I've heard so many stories from from friends who've served that that they've engaged with other countries who are trying to get uh elections up and running. And and that that's something we've always been proud of. So kind of being able to do that back here at home is super gratifying.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I got to be in Iraq during the first ever provincial elections, and I got to be in Afghanistan when women are allowed to vote for the first time. So it's like, you know, you probably see the famous blue thumbprint uh photos with women. Like um I mean it's just it drives on how what how important it is for we are able to vote, and that um that it's that it's it's it's a duty as a citizen to go vote. Um and I, you know, I had gonna have, I think last year I went and saw a butt I didn't work the polls, I was doing something else about I had a buddy doing it, he's a double amputee, lost both legs in Afghanistan. I was working the polls, um standing there with his robot legs on, and uh uh I never forget that like a yellow cab taxi pulled up. Like a like a literal taxi, and a lady gets out with two kids and she's wearing a Waffle House apron, like clearly on the way to work, uh wrangling kids. Like, I mean, she it's she is going through a lot of hoops to go vote, right? Uh before she gets to her shift to the Waffle House, and she's like looks at my buddy Dan and like nods. And it was just a almost like a the moment kind of encapsulated, I think, the whole purpose of Veterans and Polls, right? Like this lady is doing all she can to go vote, and this guy's standing in there with on prosthetic legs, like they just lock eyes and smile. It was it was to me kind of the entire you know uh uh purpose of veterans and polls, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that that's it. That is the story. You're totally right. Um, so so how can uh veterans, military spouses, military family members get involved in more perfect union? What what's the what's the ask? What do we do?
SPEAKER_00:Many levels, Ellen. Uh the first is to sign up at our at our website, MPU.us. And this is for any American, not just veterans uh and not just military spouses. I mean, you if you want to start a brickyard, we can talk. We have programming for non-brickyard cities. Um, we will in the next month uh open our application for the 2024 Fellowship in Missoula, Montana, uh, which we look, we invest a lot in you. It's about a$9,000 ahead uh investment we make to train you um to go lead a brickyard. Uh and we we usually bring some pretty incredible leaders. Last year was National Security Advisor O'Brien and his buddy Sean Penn, who are polar opposites politically, but they like each other because they work on hostage negotiations together. Um, we'll train you as to our brickyard. And so sign up on the website, apply for the fellowship, and like, look, everyone says it. But it's true, follow us on socials. We're also developing a pretty big digital media and social strategy because we for this to have an actual impact, we got to touch millions of people, hundreds of thousands in real life. Um, but also we gotta showcase that so the rest of America can see wow, there's the middle 80% of America isn't the problem. You got the 10% on the ends that are taking all the bandwidth and are all the news stations and creating all the drama. Like I really do think most of America, we're like, we're being ghastly as a country. We're not super divided. We all we see is like the crazies talking, right? Like regular people don't make the news. You had a cup of coffee with someone who didn't watch your news station. That's not news, right? And so uh we're gonna show start showcasing that in a in a better way through digital media and video storytelling. But um, so all to say is sign up, follow, apply for the fellowship.
SPEAKER_03:There you have it, folks. We we absolutely love that. Ellen, you were gonna say something?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I was gonna ask one last question. What's the story of the flag behind you?
SPEAKER_00:Uh that flag uh flew above the three combat outposts in Afghanistan, I uh I ran as a commander. That was the flag that flew above uh the headquarters outpost. And I like to think that you can see a hole in there. I like to think it's a bullet hole in it, but it's probably a cigarette birth from a soldier on guard. I don't know, uh, but I like to think it's a bullet hole because we were in some gunfights or whatever. But that is uh a reminder of uh uh of my time in Afghanistan. So that yeah, great question. Appreciate that. Beautiful.
SPEAKER_03:Awesome, Garrett. Thank you so much. There you have it, folks. More perfect union. The goal is in the name. That's something that we all serve to uh to defend and support our Constitution within the United States, and um couldn't be more excited to have you as part of the vet the vote team in 2024. Ellen, any final thoughts?
SPEAKER_02:No, thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_03:Appreciate it. Thanks, Garrett.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you so much for listening. If you found this podcast episode interesting or useful, please share it with the people you know. This episode was co-hosted by Joe Plunsler and Ellen Guseson. The audio and video were edited by Cameron King. And this podcast is a production of We the Veterans and Military Families, the 501c3, not-for-profit, nonpartisan, veteran led organization focused on promoting positive and patriotic civic engagement to strengthen American freedom and liberty. Find out more about us at we the veterans.us and follow us on social media.
