Carnival Chronicles: From Roots to Roads with David Bremang

In this episode of The Moreish Podcast, Hema and David Bremang delve into the rich history and cultural significance of Carnival in the Caribbean, David’s work with Caribana in Toronto and Caribbean music.

Connect with David:
Instagram
FoundMissing.co

Links:
Friyie
CrownMas TO

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/andrey-rossi/jerk-sauce

Transcript

Hema: Hello. And welcome back to The Moreish Podcast. This is Hema, and today we're talking about Carnival. Carnival happens all over the Caribbean and is most known for beautiful bright costumes, parades, music and days of fun and fete. But do you know the history behind it? David Bremang is joining me today to talk about the significance and meaning of Carnival in the Caribbean. We're going to dive into music, food and more. Planning for Caribana here in Toronto is in full swing, so there's no better time to dive into this topic. 

David is an entrepreneur with a passion for harnessing the transformative power of storytelling. Born in Toronto, he is the founder of FoundMissing.co, an experiential marketing agency. With a Caribbean and African heritage, David has a deep enthusiasm for the history and depth of Carnival, and he found it essential to immerse himself in the Trinidadian and Toronto Carnival space. He's worked with three major bands since 2018, and is currently involved with CrownMas TO, all of which makes him the ideal person for this discussion.

Hi, David. 

David: Hello. 

It's a beautiful Friday, you know, sun's out. It's a bit cold, but it's, it's, it's good for now. 

Hema: Thank you so much for joining me today. So we were connected by Keyanna from the In We Blood podcast. I reached out to her to ask about Carnival, and find out if we could find someone who can do a bit of a deep dive into the history of Carnival and the significance, and she recommended you. So thank you so much for joining me today. 

David: No problem. Thank you. Thank you. 

Hema: Why don't we start with a little bit of an introduction of who you are and a bit of your background?

David: Yeah, I'm David Bremang, born and raised in Toronto. Spent, basically almost every summer my mom shipped me off to Trinidad till I was 17. So, um, a lot of the broughtupcy of, of who I am is, is coming from Trinidad. I'm half Ghanian as well, my father. So I got two strong cultures. That, you know, that make, you know, who I am, which is very interesting and amazing at the same time.

Um, went to school at York university, graduated with a marketing degree, humanities minor, as well as a Seneca business admin, diploma. So I got that background and, allowed me to basically work in the space of marketing, branding, consulting, strategy services. And I'm just in that world. With several other businesses that I work with and it's just been fun to have the ability to be creative.

And now, within the past five years, I was able to jump into the Carnival Caribana space of Toronto Carnival and it's been amazing to see the behind the scenes of how things work. Um, I've been, I've been a model once, never again. I'll never do that. That's just not for me. Yeah. So I was just, you know, been behind the scenes and understanding the branding and storytelling and marketing of, certain bands within Toronto.

 I've just immersed myself. Um, thankfully I was raised somewhat in that space and I just, as an adult now, I've just been able to work. 

Hema: When you went to Trinidad every year for those 17 years, tell me about that. How was that?

David: So that's summertime. So literally like sometimes the last week of school, I'm already out.

And sometimes my mom, I don't know what she was thinking, but sometimes I missed three weeks of school in September. Like I would start late. I don't know what booking she was involved with, but it was just basically summertime. I was there. And it's not really the carnival season, but you still see carnival all around.

Like throughout the whole year, you see the fests, the parties, the music that's being released. So, um, I was, I was blessed to. Be around that, around that time. 

Hema: And, you know, that's a really good point. When I talk about Carnival and Trinidad, oftentimes people don't realize that there is a Carnival season.

And so when you mentioned in the summertime, there's no Carnival. In other Caribbean islands, there may be Carnival in the summer or different times of the year. Almost all of the Caribbean islands, Caribbean countries have a version of Carnival, right?

David: Right, right. So, 

Hema: I want to talk to you about the origins of Carnival on this podcast, The Moreish Podcast, we talk about the history of the people of the Caribbean and how that influences current day culture and Carnival for a lot of people or Caribana. Do you call Toronto Carnival Caribana or what do you call it?

David: Oh, forever. Yeah. Okay. That's all I know Caribana. Same. It's 

Hema: always Caribana to me. A lot of people sort of see it as a party, a fete, a time to go out and like wear costumes and hang out. But there's so much more behind it. Right? And so much more significance. So can you maybe talk about what the origins of Carnival is?

David: Yeah, there's, um, it's extremely deeply webbed. And from the knowledge that we know is that these are, this is not something new. It's been going on 200 plus years. And these traditions mainly come from West Africa. And so what I've been looking at too is even Egypt. So just the style of a procession and giving back to something and praising something or worshiping something in a community manner of just walking around in a parade and listening to music and playing drums and, you know, dancing movement, it all started from the motherland.

And so when the Transatlantic Slave movement happened, those traditions still came along. And within, like, specifically for Trinidad, what happened was, like, within the early 1700s, there was, um, the Cedula population, which were aristocrats from people from Martinique, Dominica, Guadaloupe, all came down to Trinidad.

So obviously, though, at that time, those islands were French colonized. And what they did when they came to Trinidad, they brought their own masquerading balls that they would have specifically the two days before Ash Wednesday. So for them, it was their Carnival was removing of the flesh. So they would party and do all these wild things.

And you know, that, that was theirs. But at the time our African people that were captured, I would like to say, not really slaves, did not have that access to be a part of it. So they would watch and observe and be like, okay, this is what they're doing. We were doing this back home in our own way. And it just became like this marriage of two cultures of taking from what the French did and what the Africans had.

And then you just slowly started to see them do their own thing. And Carnivals always had, um a backlash or a rebel, because again, it was a communal thing. It brought people together. It brought their culture back together. And it's like, no, we can't have that. So there's always been a fight, fight, fight, a fight.

And that's where you have like old mass where it's like always bringing up politics and what's happening in society. So there was always a, in the music, you would hear it. There's always a chant of back and forth of them explaining what's happening, you know, and then slowly be getting to like. Kaiso, and Extempo, and Calypso, and these are where these stories are being told.

So it's like, I could go for days. There's, there's so much that like make this, this whole engine turn. And a specific part of that was in 1888, it was the Canboulay riots. And obviously the, the, the Africans that were captured worked on these cane fields and they were fed up and just couldn't take it anymore that Carnival was being suppressed. So they burned down the whole fields And that's where you have the molasses, the wearing of the black, the Jab Jab, mimicking these people that once enslaved us. So there's a lot of satire to Carnival in that essence of we took what they gave us and we made it our own, you know, and we were still respecting what we did back home as well.

So there's a lot of layers, a lot of webs to make it happen. And you know, music, food, it all comes together, like in the culture itself. So. Yeah, it's, um, it's very interesting. 

Hema: Yeah, there's, there's so many layers and you talked about, you know, the enslavers, the colonizers first having their version, of Carnival 

And then the African enslaved people really taking over and making it something meaningful, more than just a party. Right. Which, which really is where Carnival stems from, right? Is, is, and what we see today is Carnival stems from the enslaved people telling their stories. And doing their thing, connecting as a community.

Now you mentioned a couple of different aspects of Carnival and there are, Carnival is more than just the one day parade, right? There's many different aspects of Carnival from the costumes and the music, uh, J'Ouvert. Do you want to maybe talk about some of the different aspects of Carnival and what encompasses it as a whole?

David: Yeah, so originally, today we see what we call a pretty mass, which is the whole costumes, but like, the real deal of Carnival really stems from J'Ouvert, and that was the, the representation of the Canboulay riots of the morning of is when they burned down all the fields, all the cane fields, and that's where you have like the different characters that come out of it, so like, You know, in Grenada, a Jab may look different.

In Trinidad, there's different types of Jabs. There's the blue Jab, you know, there's the Indian Jab that they call that whips and lashes. There's, there's several different characters that are used, or it's like almost like a folklore, but we're used to tell that story, which is, to me, is just beautiful, you know, and then like, when you go to Bahamas and Jamaica, they represent the Junkanoo.

That's another aspect, which is celebrated around Christmas. New Year's. So it's like, again, with within all the islands, the Windward Antilles, it's like it's all happening at once. And J'Ouvert is really the premise of Carnival that Monday. And originally it was, um, it was their date that they did, it was around Emancipation, which was 18, 18 34, when the British basically broke out of their colonizing Caribbean islands.

And if you look at Caribana Toronto, it falls on the first weekend of August. Which is similar to Emancipation in Toronto as well as in Trinidad, they did the same date. John Simcoe, I believe, um, was a part of that. So it's, it's, it really stems from, to answer your question, I guess, it's, it's that rebellion, that freedom amongst that day, you know, and that's, that's what, that's what really Carnival comes from that.

That ending of oppression and you know and then later on that's when we got into the costumes and that's like day two. The date they wanted the Emancipation date but the French kind of said no you're gonna have it two days before Ash Wednesday And that's where it falls in Trinidad.

Hema: And so you talked about a lot of sort of different aspects, right? I think it makes sense then, based on all of what you just said, that Brazil also has a very large Carnival, right? Because they also had a very large, enslaved population, and people that were taken from different places in Africa over to Brazil.

David: Oh, yeah. Do you 

Do 

Hema: know much about that? 

David: Um, I haven't really, I just know basically that they are the biggest. And when it comes to like their parade, it's like very detailed, very intricate. I haven't been able to touch South America yet, but that's definitely on the list to see what they're doing over there.

And it's, it's just, again, I believe they're the, no, I know Colombia, I think Colombia has a Carnival as well, but it's just, it's just beautiful to see that even in a different continent, they have something going on as well. 

Hema: And it all goes back to and can be traced back to the Transatlantic Slave Trade and the people that were forcibly taken to different places and it all represents the culture. And, you know, you talked about the storytelling and you talked about, you know, politics and the meaning behind it. Every year, costumes are different, music is different, and does that represent then what's going on politically, what's going on culturally in each society in each country?

David: I think, I think now it's changed, to be honest. Like when I look back and hear certain songs in like the fifties, the sixties, the seventies. It was more based on what's happening around the world, like, you know, especially with, um, post World War II, if you listen to like a lot of Calypso, they took arrangements from like American jazz, you know, and then you had like the influence of Harry Belafonte, like he, he put on, he basically, they say he put Calypso on the world stage.

So it's like you, it's hard to say, um, where, like what's happening now. I believe in the music, you know, you're not really hearing the political struggle or what's happening in the country. Some artists do it and you'll get that in like Kaiso, Extempo, but it's not mainstream as it was back then. So it's like you heard it more as Calypso is emerging.

But. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a bit different now. 

Hema: It seems to have taken a little bit of a stray away from, the satire and the, the political avenues and, and maybe be just a little bit more about entertainment these days. 

David: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 

Hema: Now you talked, you've mentioned a few different types of music, and I think that's really important because there are many types of music, you know, people sort of associate Carnival and Soca, but there's more than that.

Do you want to maybe talk about some of the different types of music in the background and where they come from? 

David: This is amazing. You brought this up because I've just been on this whole Bouyon binge and they say some people say like different sub genre genres of Soca have their time but for me, it's been I was able to go to Saint Lucia last year first time for Carnival and just hearing the music The Creole French side of Soca is just like a different world for me.

So, you have the Bouyon, you have Dennery, you have blends of Zouk you have, and I've been studying this for a while, like specifically, specifically in Dominica. They studied Cadence, which was merged from Soca in Trinidad, or sorry, Calypso in Trinidad, and they took some African influence of a genre called Jing Ping, and that's where you have like the certain beat that Bouyon represents in Dominica that it's like, it's unmatched and it's very popular right now.

And for me, it's one of the best things. And when you look at, I feel like it's almost like every island took from every island. Like when I'm, when I'm understanding that when it comes to the music that you're hearing, because there's a one big fusion, like there was a time where raga was big, early nineties into early two thousands, you had like Bunji was fusion, fusing soca with reggae and a bit of dancehall and you're seeing it happen everywhere.

So. Me personally, I go for the Bouyon and the Jab. I like the faster BPM, that's coming from Grenada. And it's just interesting to see how like, yeah, like Trinidad's, to be honest, personally, Trinidad's Soca right now is just too, like, there's a lot of groovy, slow, slow, slow. I'm not into that. So to hear the other islands and to see them now small islands is what they would call them is to like be on the world stage is a beautiful thing and to see the fusion happen amongst the islands and working with Africa as well because you're hearing the afro beats now in the music. You're hearing the, a piano. It's just one big pot of pelau. That's the way I look at it. Yeah, absolutely. It's, 

Hema: There's so much to know about Carnival beyond just what we see here or what the average person knows. 

Do you have any suggestions for somebody who might be interested in learning more? Where can they maybe start researching or digging into some of this information? 

David: I think honestly, like if you have the opportunity to like our,Like our, our parents, our mothers, our fathers, people that have been in the industry for a while, it's like, if you could reach out to them and, you know, just, just ask questions, I think there's, there is stuff online, but I feel like the stories, hearing it from actual people, which you can find in like a mas camp or somebody from Toronto Carnival like just literally reaching out to see who's, who's, it could be like a band leader in Trinidad and Tribe. I feel like if you're, if you're around and just in the right circle, asking these people, these questions are like, how did this start? Or, you know, there's even podcasts that like, In We Blood, like look at the whole relationship that we have here.

What you guys are doing at Moreish is amazing for people to, to understand these things. And online is cool, like, to, to read. But I feel like the personal stories Like, I was just watching an interview the other day and, like, this I forgot her name, but this lady was just breaking down, like, the whole patois in Trinidad and how it's a lost language. And it's, like, how she's, like, one of the few people in the country that speak it. You know, so just understanding that side and I know my mom could speak a few words, but you know, I think, I think again, like that storytelling of talking to somebody that. I 

Hema: I agree. I will say, you know, in doing the research for this podcast and trying to dig into the history of a lot of these Caribbean islands and the people, much of what's written and what's available out there is from the perspective of the enslavers and the colonizers.

Right. And I think what you're saying is so true is really getting the true stories, the real feeling for what's going on on the ground is to talk to people. And, you know, part of me is worried that if we don't start to document the stories that our elders have to tell us it's going to be lost forever.

I think it's really important to get those stories from people, to carry it forward, to really represent the culture. 

David: Definitely. Definitely. 

Hema: You have a little bit of, a history with Toronto Caribana, right? With Crown Mas, is that correct? 

David: Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Hema: Yeah, tell me about that. 

David: Crown Mas, yes, shout out to Deon, Casey, Calvin, yes, big three over there.

 Yeah, I've been with the team for a while now, and the good, what I like about Crown Mas is, they're really, like, being extremely innovative when it comes to, you know, breaking or changing or opening the envelope, like, just, just breaking barriers and taking risks, which I like.

And I feel like, you know, as artists and being creative, it's like, it's something that you have to do. It's something that we have to do to push the culture forward, or else it's just going to be the same. The main designer, Casey, has just been amazing at doing that, you know, and making it look cool.

And like every year it's just getting better and better and better. So we're just like, as a crew, we're very happy to see that. And, um, today's Friday, the band launches today with Tribal. And, it's been, it's been cool to see, like, really behind the scenes of how things work, budgets and, you know, marketing and planning and events and photo shoots.

So. It's very, it's not easy. It's not, people think like, yeah, okay. We just come out Saturday and jump up on the road. Like there's a lot of moving parts, that have to be respected. And it's, it's an art craft at the end of the day. And it's, it's, it's, it just makes me understand that these, these costumes, this work of art have to live somewhere like it can't just be like that one day.

Like there has to be something more tangible that, you know, Canadians can see or get or touch and feel and see what's going on. So I think something has to, has to build. 

Hema: There's, there's so, you know, you alluded to, there's so much work that goes into creating up the costumes and it's not just actually, you know, as you said, putting together a costume and like that one day jumping up on the road.

There's so much intentionality and storytelling and creativity that goes on behind the scenes. And I think people sometimes forget that Anybody that's intimately involved with, whether it's Caribana or Carnival, this is something that they're thinking about all year long, right? It's not just like, let me just, you know, throw on a costume and put some feathers on and, and that's that.

It is, it's very intentional. I'm going to put you on the spot. Can you give us any little hints about what's going on with Crown Mas this year for Caribana? Oh, 

David: Yeah. Um, well, yeah, I, yeah, yeah basically, it's, um, So the whole theme for Tribal is the Art of Mas. So just bringing back to the essence of like, why we do this and what's going on.

And it's very like, the theme for Crown Mas is like anime slash biker. So you're going to see elements of anime and biking in the costumes. Which is to me, again, I've never seen that before to be honest. Like, the whole storyline is, we are the anime characters that are fighting off carnival stormers that are coming to ruin the parade, like, so we're just a crew on our bike, like, it's, it's really dope and cool to get that, that storyline out, um, which I've never seen before, and, you know, there's elements of biking, but like the men, chest pieces that you would wear the bike.

You know, we got the glasses on, the woman's, headpiece, front line headpiece, it's almost like a steering wheel. So there's like elements added and it's just beautiful colorways. And, yeah, on the road we will be looking amazing. 

Hema: By the time this podcast goes live, people will have had a really good look at what's going on. Now, I'm going to take a little, a little departure because, There's some time, some criticism I've heard from some people about the skimpiness of costumes.

And I want to talk about that because it really does offend some people and some people feel like it's not a big deal and it's, it is what it is. Do you, do you have any opinions on that? 

David: It's um, it's definitely heavily layered. Um, we could, we could go back in time and The French used to call, well, the colonized French people would say, um, in Trinidad, they would use the word, Jamette.

Some artists still use it in their songs nowadays as, like, the woman with, that's curved and has, you know, body parts looking a certain way. They were like chastised and it's like, you're a Jamette, you're a Jamette, you're this, that, whatever the third. And that name became a community, so to speak. So it was like the Jamette people, which moved to, um, like Laventille, Barataria, and that side of the Trinidad, of Trinidad, were the ones that created Steelpan, mas, jude, all these things came out of that Jamette community.

So it's like, again, for a woman, it's that form of expression. If you're comfortable in being the way that, that, that you express yourself, then so be it, as long as it's respected by men and not abusing that power or doing the most. So it's like, it has changed. It will evolve. There's like, sometimes like there's nothing we could do, but it's like.

Again, if a woman wants to express her way in that way and people can leave her alone and do what you got to do, then that's a beautiful thing. I feel like, so, and again, it all comes from what was happening back then. You know, not being able to be ourselves and not be able to express ourselves. So it's going to evolve.

It's going to change. And, you know, costumes back in the day did not look like what it looks like now. And that, you know, that happens as society does this thing, but, you know, there's thankfully that there's, um, there's still costumes and bands that represent the old days. Like you have the sailor band that's still around.

You know, some people would be like, Oh, it's too old, old fashioned, but it's like elements of old mas, traditional mas is still around. And, um, the costumes are just a new part that joined in around fifties, forties, fifties. So it's still kind of new, I guess, but you know, um, Yeah, it's, it's, it is a topic.

Hema: It is, it is a topic. And I know a lot of people, maybe more so in North America, hypersexualize the women because of the costumes or because of the way people dance. And I think that if you don't understand. what's going on and what Carnival is about. It's not about sexualizing women and, and, and I think that's, that's really misunderstood.

Because that's not why the costumes are there. You know, I think you said it really clearly is if a woman feels comfortable in expressing herself in a specific way, then that's it. That's fine. It, it, it doesn't have any invitation for anybody else to react to her in a specific way. 

David: Right. I agree. And, 

Hema: You know, having been, I've only been to Trinidad Carnival once but I would say the feeling there is much more of a community than I find here in Caribana as it stands today. And Caribana of 10 years ago, had that sort of community feel, that sort of togetherness. And it doesn't feel the same to me these days. Why do you, do you have any thoughts on that? Why that might be?

David: Just think sometimes it could be just we're getting older. Like, it could be that, to be honest, or it's just, I think, um, with as society, as we progress, like you said, these, these stories and the understandings have to be passed down or else we're going to lose it. So I think we're just at a time you have social media, social media plays a major part on choosing or shifting how people think and how do they view things.

So it's like, you know, we got a battle against social media to be like, no, this is what the program is. This is what you're supposed to do. Can't just hop fences and run around. And it's like, like, you know, like it has to be respected. So it's like, those stories just have to be enforced to let people know, like, this is not just a, it's not just a running parade, you know?

And then, and it's, it's just, I've come to the understanding that this is what it is in Toronto. And there's only so much you could do, really. And um, it's just, it's just culture. It's different everywhere. Mas is are different everywhere. Like, you know, I, I heard, I don't know if I, if I read this, but apparently like in St. Vincent, like it's illegal to even storm the band like you will get arrested. I could be wrong, but somebody, I, I read it in a group, so I don't know if the person was boasting or boosting, but like. But again, like we have extraction teams and they pull people out and it's, it's, it's, it's highly respected over there.

And, you know, hopefully it can happen here one day, but it's, it's definitely changed. 

Hema: I mean, you're, you made me feel really old when you said that. It's possibly that we're getting old, but you know, Part of me just sort of feels like it's, you know, the, the knocking down of the fences and the storming the parade route is a bit disrespectful to all of the work and all of the thought that's gone behind the Carnival and the parade and the songs and bringing people together.

David: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's again, like, and it's social media that changes how Carnival looks like the other day I posted on Instagram. It's like they don't do fetes like this anymore. Like, I used to come out of a fete, like, sweating, drenched, powdered, like, like, you know, like, again, it's like, everything is pretty, everything looks good, you know, like, there's no, like, nobody wants to be on the road anymore, like, you know.

Hema: You in, in the bio that you sent to me, I picked out a little line that I thought was really important, which is, Carnival being crucial in society. 

David: Yes, um, it's just, I, it's, it's one of those ones where you really have to experience it to, to understand why I said that. And it's just one of those, like, out of body experiences.

Like, it's just this high that you get from just being there, I don't know. I can't, I can't explain it. Like it's, it's, it's just this feeling that you get. You could be drinking all day long. It'll still hit you. Like, it's like this adrenaline that you get and it's something that uplifts us. And it's something that we look forward to.

Even just looking forward to it it's just a good feeling knowing that God spare life in February, I'm going back again. So it's just, it's, it's needed because for people that have been oppressed, you know, specifically black and Indian within the West Indies, it's, it's, it's, um, it's that form of expression that we need to keep us going and keep us alive.

You know, you know, I was reading the other day, you have Michelangelo, you know, that's European art, you know, what's our art, you know, and it should be on the same level, it should be appreciated the same, and we need to keep pushing that and keep pushing that for years and years, so there's no art shaming, this is ours, let's push it.

Absolutely 

Hema: It, it is crucial and it, and there's so much history behind it, right? And that continues and the storytelling continues. And I think it's, you know, people like you and the work that you're doing, and educating people, about the history and the meaning so that we don't lose that.

We don't lose the understanding of the ancestors and why they did what they did to get us to where we are today. Right. 

So David, I'm going to ask you a question. Did you say you were born in Toronto? 

David: Born in Toronto. Yeah. 

Hema: Okay. So I don't want to get you into any controversial situation, but on social media, I've seen this a lot. I also was born in Toronto my parents are Trinidadian. I've seen people say that if you were born abroad, so not in the Caribbean, you can't claim it as I'm Trinidadian. And I have thoughts on that, but I'd love to hear what you, what you think. 

David: Right. It is, it's, it's so, uh, it's, it's a bit complex, so to speak.

So me, I am. I'm Trinidadian by paper. I have my citizenship, but I am as well Canadian as well. Coming here, specifically living in Toronto, you're in a melting pot. So a lot of us don't really associate ourselves as Canadian. Yeah, we are Canadian, but it's like you take from what your parents give you and you kind of claim that, like, and it's just something that you have ties to more, you may, you may find yourself, I'm more Trinidadian than Canadian or more Ghanian.

So it's like, it's, it's, I understand people saying like, no, I was born there. So I am, and you're not, so it's, it's a bit, there's, there's layers to it, but, um, I would, I guess I would say I'm Trinidadian of by descent. But it's like, for me, with my personal attachment to Trinidad is that spending all those summers there, it's like, yeah, I've been here for school, but it's like, summer is like where you get to like, as a kid, you get to express yourself, be yourself and take things in.

Whether it was, you know, when you go to school, you come home, you may go outside for an hour, come home, do your homework. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. So I'm not going to say I'm raised in Trinidad, but part of who I am comes from that, that island, you know, so 

Hema: It's 

David: Like 

Hema: It's the culture, right? You're raised in the culture. It wasn't that my, for me, it wasn't that my parents moved to Canada. And then all of a sudden lived a North American Canadian lifestyle. They still brought their cultures and traditions with them, which is what I grew up with. And, and like you said, certainly that doesn't mean that I lived the day to day life that a Trinidadian person living in Trinidad would, but it's a cultural thing.

And so I, I, it, it sort of saddens me when people want to take that away from us. And just by virtue of the fact that we weren't born in Trinidad or Jamaica or Barbados or wherever. 

David: Right. 

Hema: Culturally, we bring that with us. 

David: Definitely. 

Hema: So I want to ask you what really led to your wanting to do more of a deep dive into Trinidad Carnival, Caribana in Toronto and learning more about it.

David: Yeah, um, so the way like as a kid, so what my mom would do. Probably like, it all started with my mom just making me watch like VHS videos of like 1989 steelpan Desperados in Trinidad. And then I remember as a kid, I have a picture of it, but um, she brought me to the grandstands at Princess Gates and I would watch and I used to be scared of the Moko Jumbies as a kid.

Like as they would come for Caribana, so I would see that and then boom, go to Trinidad, see everybody talking, rave about Carnival. And at the time I couldn't go because I was in school. So like exams would be around February, Trinidad Carnival in university. So I couldn't go. And then I graduated and I was able to go 2015 was my first Trinidad carnival.

And then from there, I'm like, yeah, I'm sold. Like. It's, it's different. My first Caribana, I was in grade 11, grade 11. So people would think like I was always here for Caribana. No, like that was my first experience. And I'm like, okay, this is cool. But like Trinidad for me, like sealed the deal. Just seeing the whole orchestration of how things work, the organization, the events leading up, Steel Pan, Stick Fighting, Calypso, uh, semi finals, like the watching the parade of, like, the the Jab Jabs, the midnight robbers, like, all the characters coming into life and just seeing it happen all there for me was that was that was it.

I was sold, and I'm like, I need to be involved more. I wanna learn the back end, understand how things work, and yeah, I'm here now. 

Hema: I think I think one of the things, and maybe because I haven't been to Caribana in a few years, that I see missing, or that I miss, that I saw in Trinidad was people of all ages on the parade route.

Right? You mentioned, I think you mentioned earlier some of the older, with costumes, the sailors, costumes that may be what people would consider more modest. The older people who participate on the parade. Um, all of that was part of the Trinidad Carnival that I went to. I think it was 2012 or 2013, but that I don't really see here.

David: Yeah. Yeah. You'll, you'll see maybe like one, one small band, like, or like a float even, but it's not pushed, you know, and down there, like, it's so funny with, I played with Spirit in Trinidad this year and we were waiting to like, to get ready to cross the stage. And the sailor band was crossing us. And it was just so funny because they're looking at us like, yeah, you guys have to respect us.

Like, you know, we have to make sure that they're, they passed us before we went. And it was just like, amazing just to watch them pass by. It was just, it was, it was cool. Like just to see like your OGs doing their thing. 

Hema: Doing their thing. And you know that they've probably been there every year for like 40 years.

David: Yeah, oh, definitely. Yeah. And they were, they were talking some smack to us just for kicks. Like, you know, just like, yeah. Oh, yuh hadda wait. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Hema: Did they have their powder? 

David: Oh yeah. They had everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sailors, nothing changed. Live band playing on the float. Like, it was just amazing.

Hema: Having, having the best time that, you know, they look forward to every year. 

David: No, for sure. And that's the thing about Trinidad. You have the whole ecosystem. Everybody's involved and all the different events leading up to that, that those two days. It's amazing. 

Hema: Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's a good time. It's historic.

There's a lot to know about it. Um, and I think there's, you know, some, some great significance. 

You talked earlier about every country, Caribbean country, kind of having a little bit of a nuance. And, and learning from each other. You've been to Trinidad Carnival and St. Lucia? 

David: St. Lucia. Yeah. St. Lucia, Miami, Toronto.

Yeah. That's it. Any 

Hema: plans to go to another, a different country? 

David: So I'm doing St. Vincent, going into St. Lucia, okay, because Lucia was so good last year. My whole crew is like, we need to go back again to make sure we weren't dreaming. So I'm doing this double tour. I don't know how I'm going to make it, but St. Vincent, going into St. Lucia. And then hopefully maybe Grenada. I want to get it all out and try new things next year. Experience 

Hema: all of them. 

David: Yeah, if I could. Yeah, I don't claim myself as a Carnival chaser. It's just wherever I end up, I end up, again, I like fast soca.

So that's, I know when I go to those islands, I'm getting it. Like Trinidad sometimes a bit too slow for me, but yeah, a lot of groovy. 

Hema: A lot of people that, that would probably be listening, don't understand the difference between fast and groovy. 

David: Yeah. 

Hema: Can you like give it in a nutshell what that is?

David: Groovy is a slower tempo, basically coming from more of the Calypso side. and, you know, Soca now is mixing of, you know, the African drumming with Indian processions and fusing that together to make more of a faster tempo that you got. In the seventies, eighties, nineties, um, what's his name? Blackman.

Um, he basically came up with that term, which is Nailah's grandfather to coin what Soca is. And, and Soca is just, is there's so many cadences. There's so many different styles of, of beats and that's where you break into. Uh, you know, Zouk kind of has its own range, but like I was saying before, you have the bouyon, you have dennery, which is coming from Saint Lucia, you have the Jab Jab from Grenada, that style, that drumming.

And again, all relates back to Africa. Um, of that, those styles of what they were doing. So it's, it's interesting to see where everybody is now and how every island is taking from every other islands and to see Trinidad and Haiti work together, we're producers. Like it's amazing. You know, Barbados has a bashment style that's more like, you know, Jamaican reggae views.

Like, so it was just one, again, one big part. 

Hema: One big pot. 

David: Yeah. 

Hema: Let's talk about sort of the origins of Calypso. It's part of, very big part of Trinidadian culture. You know, what are the origins and where does that sort of come from? 

David: So Calypso you have mainly, you had back like, talking way back when it started with like Kaiso and Extempo and it was again that political voice that came out and satire talking about how things are going.

You have guys like Lord Kitchener, Sparrow that will talk about like, lady problems and lady issues. Just very funny, sometimes even hypersexual, but it's like, you have to catch it. Like, it's not just, you're not going to say something out loud, but it's like nuances of, of. of relationships, of life, of what's going on.

And, you know, Calypso was that, that, um, that way of telling these stories. And then as you get into like the 40s, like post war, that's when, you know, things change and more of like American influence happened because the Americans had their base in Trinidad and like, you know, the sailors, they brought their music in and their, their brass instruments.

And that's when you see Calypso now taking the brass and have that American feel to it, jazzy feel to it instead of just the drumming. And, and it was, it was fused with their like rhythm section and how they would use the tack back and the cowbell and all these things mixed in with horns. And it was just, it just became this one fusion of everything to make what Calypso is.

And it's, it's still respected today and forever will be, you know, they have Calypso Monarch. I've been to Calypso semifinals many times, and it was just vibes. So, Calypso is the heartbeat of Soca. You know, without, without Calypso, there's no Soca. And then, you know, later on in the 70s, 80s, that's where you saw the branch off and, you know, Machel was able to take it to the world.

 They're both beautiful genres, and my favorite Calypso artist is SuperBlue, and um, yeah. 

Hema: What's really interesting is, Carnival in itself, as we talked about, really has its origins in the times of slavery, and really a lot of African traditions, the enslaved people who brought this in, specifically in Trinidad, there is a big. Indo Caribbean population that has integrated into this. 

David: Yeah, first off, I am, I am chutney Rastaman. That's what I would call myself. I love, I love a chutney. I love, like, you know, I have, my mother is, is half Indian. So it's like, I've been immersed in that as well. And to see that fusion alone come together because you have Chutney and then you have Chutney Soca, which is like another branch that, you know, we even forget about that, which I feel needs to be played more.

We don't really hear it too much. Um, but it's like, again, like Drupatee, but it's like, yeah, you have these artists that like have brought you know, the Indo style, some even speak Hindi. Like it's just to see that whole other world is it's there, you know, which I feel, again, it needs to be pushed more.

We need to see it more and more mainstream, but to see that marriage happen is amazing, you know, being the two strongest cultures in the country, the African and Indian come together and make a genre of music is one of the best things you could, you could have. And then, you know, with the music and you have the food and then you have the events, the parties, the styles of dancing is different.

The drumming, the tassa, all that coming all into one is Trinidad and Tobago. 

Hema: Tassa is like, listen, that speaks to my heart. 

David: If I ever get married. It will be at my wedding. 

Hema: It speaks, it speaks to my heart, speaks to my soul when I hear it. 

David: Oh, definitely. So it's just beautiful to see. That marriage happened between the two cultures and make beautiful music out of it. 

Hema: I think it's really important to remember that. There is so much meaning and significance behind, behind the party. Yes, it is a party. It's a fete it's a good time, but there's so much behind it. And like you said, I don't want us to lose those stories and the understanding and the meaning behind it, which is why I wanted to have this conversation with you today to lend a little bit of context to the party that we see in Toronto, the party that we see on TV in social media, because it's more than just a fete and a good time. And yes, there's a lot of music and beautiful costumes and people and food, but let's not lose why it came about in the first place. 

David: Definitely. Yeah. 

Hema: Okay. I'm going to ask you a couple more questions that are just, you know, super easy.

What's your favorite, food to eat when you touch down at Trinidad? I

David: would say doubles, you know, because unfortunately in this country there's no good doubles. So, so when you land on there, it's like, you kind of have to, and just get it out. Me, I just like, I have like four in one setting and I'm good for the rest of the trip, 

Hema: A good doubles, you know, I think the last time I was there, our plane landed at something like five in the morning and the doubles man was open. So of course we had to stop. 

David: Right away. Right away. Standard procedure. 

Hema: Has to be. What is your, if you had to choose your favorite musical genre, what would it be?

David: When I say soca, I can't, I can't go a day. This, this is healing. This is therapy. Like, I can't go a day without it. It's the happiest, people like, hey, like, why are you so happy? Why is it happy? I'm like, it's the happiest music. Keeps me going. It's, it's a form of therapy. I need it, so, yeah. 

Hema: It's, you can't help but be in a good mood, I think, when you listen to Soca or for me, even like Calypso or Chutney or any of it. 

David: Yeah, definitely. 

Hema: If somebody is brand new, let's talk about Toronto, Carnival, Caribana. If somebody's brand new and they're interested, it can be a little bit intimidating, right?

When you see all of these people who have played mas for years. How does somebody maybe find their way in to get involved? 

David: Almost like what I was saying before, it's like going to the mas camps, like just to be, and I'm not saying it's lost, but it's like the communal aspect of just being at the mas camp is not, it's there depending on the mas camp or the band, but it's like just being there as much as you can and just pulling up and again, like talking to people and introducing yourself and just getting familiar with who's who and who's making the wire bras and who's making the big mas, like seeing, just ask questions, like, how was this done or what changed back in the day?

And I think, again, like just being in person, whether you just find out who somebody is, DM them, like, Hey, will you be at the mas camp this day? Pull up, you know, and these people are friendly and willing to talk and, and just, you know, West Indian people, they love to talk, so. Oh, too much sometimes. You know, so you'll get the insight.

I think being in Toronto, that's probably the best thing you can do. 

Hema: Yeah, I agree. It's, it's, it is, it can be intimidating. And I think what you just said is people are friendly and they're willing to talk. You just have to be open to it and open the door and people will people will embrace it. 

David: 

Hema: So before we, before we wrap up this conversation, let's talk about what you're working on these days and what you have going on.

David: Yeah, it's a lot going on. I currently co manage artist Friyie in the music space, focuses on hip hop, rap, dancehall, R& B, he just does everything. So. We got a few projects dropping out. Crown Mas as of today is our band launch with Tribal, as this is recorded. So for the next few months, we're gearing up and getting ready to tell the story that we want to tell, and just be authentic and working with the brands that we work with to do that, which we have some events and things going on within the community, to, to, again, tell that story.

 There's a lot that's gonna, we're going to be doing, leading up to that day, that Saturday when we're all on the road. So it's just, it's just now it's, it's, it's keeping busy and going to the mas camp and building the costumes and, and getting everything ready.

 So I believe Carnival technically starts, I think it's whatever the Monday is. So that's July 7th. So, I think that's when the Toronto Carnival really starts. So, that's when everything kicks off, all the events.

And, I will be at King and Queens for sure. 

Hema: If people want to know more about what you're working on and get a little peek into the work that you're doing, not only with Crown Mas, but all of the other things, where can they connect with you? 

David: Yeah. So, um, my Instagram is at thedavidsb.

 The main marketing agency that I run is foundmissing. co. We focus on experiential marketing, um, consulting, strategy, branding, design, you name it, event planning, all that stuff. That's us. crownmassto at crownmass. to, under Tribal. 

 It's going to be an exciting summer. 

Hema: Thank you so much for taking the time on launch day to have this conversation with me. I really appreciate you sharing all of your knowledge, and I look forward to right after this, going to the Crown Mas website to see what's going on. 

David: Yes, for sure. And thank you for giving me the platform to talk and yeah, it's been, it's been good. 

Hema: Thanks, David. 

David: Thank you so much.

Hema: Thanks so much for joining me on today's Carnival episode of The Moreish Podcast. I'll drop details and links in the show notes if you'd like to connect with David and learn more about his work. There's so much history to Carnival, and hopefully we've inspired you to learn more, dive into the music and join the fete.