Ep. 5 - The Sims Family Slaying, Part 2

Step into the shadow-laden narrative of Tallahassee's most haunting crime, as you and I traverse the complexities of the Sims Family Slaying. This episode extends beyond mere retelling to impart in-depth knowledge and analysis. As we wind our way down the crooked path of this perplexing and surprising case, the true horror and grimness of this case comes into focus, laying bare the true brutality and gruesomeness of this crime.

Prepare to confront the sinister underbelly of a seemingly tranquil Floridian town, where the gruesome details and mysterious suspects of the 1966 Sims murders come to the fore. As your guide, and as a criminal defense attorney, I scrutinize suspect profiles from the rage-filled to the coldly psychopathic, dissecting their potential mental states against the backdrop of the blood-soaked crime scene. Moreover, we reflect on the influence of new Supreme Court rulings that law enforcement points to, as excuse for their inability to investigate and solve this family-affair triple murder.

Together, we step through the looking glass to scrutinize societal repercussions and individual characters enshrouded in the aftermath of the Sims tragedy. Dr. C.A. Roberts, a man of supposed faith with a secret darkness, emerges at the epicenter of speculation and fear, as we contemplate his ties to this sinisterly evil case and potential associations with malevolent forces. Your engagement through reviews and donations empowers us to keep these critical stories at the forefront, ensuring that the quest for truth remains illuminated. Join me in piecing together this intricate puzzle, where the pursuit of justice transcends all other considerations.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:26

I am JK Richards, the founder, creator and host of your beloved True Crime series, where we treat crimes seriously as your mysterious, murderous and macabre podcast In the past and still to this day. I am a criminal defense attorney, where I view, assess, investigate, analyze and reassess evidence again and again. If you are one looking for true stories of mystery, intrigue, vice, corruption, may him violent malevolence, jealousy, greed, assault, insult, murder and the macabre, well, you are in the right place. Again, I am your host, jk Richards. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it and it means a lot to me. It gives me so much pleasure researching and preparing these episodes for you, and I truly hope that you enjoy them.

Speaker 1: 1:23

It's been said about me more than once or twice that I should not have been a lawyer, but instead should have been a college professor, for the reason that I have a way of forever transforming myself into a teacher in whatever place or role I am trying to fulfill, and I sincerely hope that my legal insights not only are entertaining for you, but are instructive and educational as well. I would like to reiterate the very genuine and sincere request that I made in episode 4, that, as you listen to this podcast, and especially if you are at home or at work or a passenger in a vehicle while listening that you take just a few moments and go. Leave me a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts. It may be an unattainable goal, but I am trying to put out content that you love so much that I can maintain the all 5 star review that I began with. I didn't expect that, but it just happened and I would like to keep it going. Also, if you care to, it would help us tremendously if you would like to donate a few dollars per month to support this channel and our content. Finally, in episode 4, I mentioned that I was working on some things to assist in providing pro bono, free legal services to people who need those types of services where our public defense system does not have adequate resources to take care of and to fill the need, especially where the United States is the most incarcerating nation in the world. Well, that further information is. I'm looking at creating a non-profit 501c3 foundation that will pay for attorneys to provide pro bono legal services to those who need them, especially in particular cases or circumstances of a special need. I don't have any details about this right at this moment. Those details will be coming, but I wanted to let you know, and I hope that you will support that objective as well. Who knows, maybe someday you will need those types of services. It truly can happen to anyone. All it takes is the government getting you in their sights, for whatever reason. With all of this said, and in just reminding you one more time to go, please leave me a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts. We're on to our story.

Speaker 1: 3:29

So this is part 2 of the Sims Family Slaying, and before I continue on with the story, I have a few corrections that I need to issue. This is that I stated in episode 4, which was part 1 of the Sims Family Slaying that in further research I came to conclude were wrong or incorrect, in whole or in part. So first, helen Sims was shot once in the leg and twice in the head. Not only once in the head, but twice. Joyce Sims was both shot and stabbed 7 times. Joyce Sims was shot once Only. On October 25th 1966, a few days after the killings, only a double funeral, not a triple funeral, for Robert Sims and Joyce Sims took place. Helen Sims was still fighting for her life at that time. Alright, next we need to do a recap on episode 4. So the Sims Family is comprised of Dr Robert Sims, 42 at this time, mrs Helen Sims, who is 34, jenny Sims, who is 17, judy Sims, who is 16, and Joy Sims, who is 12.

Speaker 1: 4:36

This case begins at about 11pm on October 22nd 1966. The Florida State Seminoles football game had just concluded at Florida State University in Tallahassee, florida. 17-year-old Jenny arrives home from babysitting for another family, presumably who had attended the FSU football game. The house is eerily quiet and she searches around wondering why the normal hustle and bustle in their house is not going on. The last place she checks is her parents' bedroom, where she finds her mother, her father and her little 12-year-old sister, joy, all dead or dying. Her father is shot and gasping for air, her mother is shot three times, once in the knee and twice in the head, and Joy is stabbed 7 times. Her pants and underwear are pulled down around her ankles and she's shot once in the head. Jenny calls the Beavis family mortuary, because back then mortuaries provided ambulance transportation to hospitals. Jenny then runs to a neighbor's house to ask for help. Mr Beavis and his young son, rocky, who is only slightly older than Jenny, arrives at the house just before Jenny and the neighbor arrive at the house. The Beavis' are very careful not to disturb the crime scene, and when the Beavis' arrive, joy Sims was clearly dead.

Speaker 1: 5:49

Robert Sims died immediately before or after they arrived, and Ms Helen Sims' condition was grave, unknown, but she was still breathing. Sheriff Deputy Larry Campbell is the first law enforcement officer to arrive on scene. It's his 24th birthday and he was supposed to be at his own birthday party at that time. Deputy Campbell calls the sheriff and the chief of detectives in Tallahassee, jack Dawkins. A pissing match then begins between the sheriff, his office and Jack Dawkins and the Tallahassee City Police Department regarding who has jurisdiction over this crime. The sheriff's office wins that battle. During this pissing match, city police begin trampling the crime scene, with officers even putting on a pot of coffee inside the crime scene within the Sims family home. The sheriff and the sheriff's office ousts the PD and takes over the investigation.

Speaker 1: 6:37

Several days after, october 22, 1966, the funeral for Robert Sims and Joy Sims is held at the First Baptist Church in Tallahassee, with Pastor Dr CA Roberts presiding over the funeral. Later, helen, robert and Joy are buried in Meridian Mississippi, where both Helen and Robert were originally from. Shortly after the funeral, dozens of women begin calling into the sheriff's office independent of each other, with all of them calling to state and to affirmatively tell law enforcement that they had nothing to do with the Sims family murders. This caused law enforcement to investigate why such an odd occurrence was taking place and, as it turned out, pastor Dr CA Roberts was such a charismatic person, which we'll be talking about more in this episode, that he had been having affairs with dozens of women in his congregation and these women were afraid of coming under suspicion under a theory of being a scorned lover or something similar.

Speaker 1: 7:33

Now I'm going to come back to Pastor CA Roberts here in a little bit, but first I want to provide greater detail on the condition of Mr Sims, helen and Joy when the Beavis' and Jenny and the neighbor arrive back at the house on the night of the murders. So in researching for this episode I was able to find several news articles from newspapers back in October of 1966, on the day of and shortly after the Sims Family murders, that discussed the Sims Family murders, and there are details in there and interesting, eerie descriptions of what was found and by whom, and I've selected specific aspects and parts of those news clippings that I'd like to share with you Now. The entirety of these news clippings are up, or will be up, on the Triple M Podcast's website for you to be able to see, to peruse and to read in their entirety if you would like. First, on October 23rd 1966, the Tallahassee Democrat printed a story which contained the following the Sims' oldest daughter, virginia, who also is known as Jenny, 17 years old, discovered the slang when she arrived home from the football game.

Speaker 1: 8:42

This is incorrect. She was arriving home from babysitting. She telephoned the Beavis Sutherland funeral home for an ambulance. Mr Sims' third daughter, judy, 15, this is wrong. Also she was 16, was on a babysitting job. Beavis said he entered the house and found Joy in a bedroom dead. She had been gagged with a stocking and tied up. Mrs Sims was on the floor her head under the bed and tightly bound. Mr Sims was still alive. When he arrived he too was tightly bound. Beavis said he attended to Mrs Sims first, getting her into the ambulance, and when he returned for Mr Sims he was dead. Residents on the short street located off Gibbs Drive told police. They heard nothing to arouse any suspicions. However, ellis Finch, a Tallahassee Democrat photographer who lives a few blocks away said he heard what sounded like four shots at about 11.20pm.

Speaker 1: 9:35

Next, on the following day, october 24th 1966, the Tallahassee Democrat printed the following the three Sims family members were discovered by Virginia, also known as Jenny, in the master bedroom of their three bedroom home at 641 Muriel Court. Mr Sims was killed with a single shot in the head. Joy died from several stab wounds from a long, wide bladed knife in the chest and abdomen. Mr Sims wife Helen was shot three times, once in the leg and twice in the head. The victims were discovered shortly after 11.15pm. Sheriff Joyce said Virginia, also known as Jenny, had been dropped off in front of her home after babysitting. When she entered the lighted residence that had been the Sims home since 1956, she went into her room to leave her purse.

Speaker 1: 10:22

After getting the address of the Sims home from Jenny, in what Russell Beavis of the Funeral Home described as a terrified voice, he and his son Rocky raced to the home in an ambulance. Beavis and his son entered the house to find Sims lying on the bed and his wife and child on the floor. They had been shot with what was believed to be a.38 caliber pistol. The two managed to free the mother from her bonds and she was taken to the hospital. Mr Beavis said they were all tied very tightly. Mr Beavis then called the police. He also called another ambulance for Mr Sims but realized that the man had died. He said the parents were breathing. When he first entered the room, mr Beavis said the father was dressed in slacks and a sports shirt and the mother was dressed in slacks and a blouse.

Speaker 1: 11:09

Robbery apparently was not the motive, since the sheriff said that nothing seemed to be missing nor even disturbed. Mrs Sims' purse and a wallet lay on the dresser unopened and another wallet was found unopened in the living room. That's the end of the quote. But I would also note that the article indicates at one point that a motive of a sexual nature in relation to Joyce Sims had been ruled out in the investigation. However, this becomes a controversy later on in the reporting and in the investigation. Finally, on October 25th 1966, the Tallahassee Democrat printed the following A massive coordinated manhunt extending into several states is producing firm results in the savage murder of a leading educator and his daughter here Saturday night.

Speaker 1: 11:57

Sheriff WP Joyce said today he has ruled out robbery as a motive but declined to pin down the definite theory on which the investigation is now proceeding. Revenge or sex and for your knowledge, the revenge angle comes up much later in this case. We probably won't get to that in this episode. Ed Yaraburo, head of the Florida Sheriff's Bureau, which is lending full support, said his personal belief is that a sex maniac is involved who is intent on molesting the child. He went on to emphasize that his theory was personal and that the sheriff is in full charge of the investigation. We have four investigators running down leads and laboratory technicians who are analyzing evidence. Yaraburo said Mrs Sims remained in critical condition at Tallahassee Memorial Hospital today. She was shot twice in the head and once in the leg. While the chance appeared slim, sheriff Joyce continues to hope that she might rally enough to provide clues to the identity of the attacker. Sheriff Joyce said today there is no veil of secrecy over the investigation, but restraint is being exercised in order to card against any prejudicial publicity, as defined by new US Supreme Court decisions, that might reverse a conviction. He added that he recognizes the right of the people to know. He said the High Court rulings have proved a big stumbling block in questioning people in connection with the case. Questioning people in the case depends solely on their willingness to cooperate. They can refuse to answer questions and can demand a lawyer at public expense.

Speaker 1: 13:24

And another description of the scene that was found by Jenny in the Beavis' in this article reads as follows All three victims were found in the bedroom. The child was lying on her back on the floor, stabbed seven times and shot once. Two plunges of the knife, probably double edged, long and wide, had been deep, one penetrated the liver and the other severing the aorta. The blade had sunk into the right side of the middle chest, almost under the arm and even with the breastbone, and again below the center of the breastbone, almost on a line. Between these two stab wounds were five less deep wounds, all apparently inflicted in rapid succession. She had been shot in the right side of the head, about two inches above the top of her ear, the bullet probably a.38 caliber, ranging slightly up and forward toward the top of the head and remaining beneath the skull. Her wrists were bound together behind her back with a men's necktie, and a necktie was used to bind her ankles. A nylon stocking had been cramped completely into her mouth.

Speaker 1: 14:24

Mr Sims breathing. His last one found was lying on his right side on top of the bed. He was near the bed's edge. His hands were bound behind him with a necktie, another necktie bound his ankles. His mouth was open with what appeared to be a scarf stretched tightly across the mouth and tied at the back of his head. His eyes were covered with a blinder that had been fashioned from a piece of white cloth. He had been shot in the left temple Through the blinder, the white cloth showing plainly the powder burns.

Speaker 1: 14:53

Jenny lost a light blue silk undergarment which she found wound around her mother's face, apparently as a sort of blind and gag. She said she was afraid her mother could not breathe. A nylon hose had been used to tie her wrists behind her. The hose had been wrapped one way and tied in knots, then wrapped the opposite way and tied again. She had been shot twice in the vicinity of the right temple. One bullet had emerged a few inches behind and below the ear and was found lodged in the rug. The other bullet was later removed during surgery. The bullets had entered about a half inch apart. Another shot was found lodged in the left leg, just above and behind the knee.

Speaker 1: 15:35

Neither Mr Sims nor his wife Helen had been stabbed, except that a dresser drawer was slightly open and a closet door a little ajar. Everything was neatly in place in the bedroom where the victims were found. Mrs Sims' purse containing change was on the dresser, along with $6 in loose bills. Her husband's billfold containing $8, a negotiable check and credit cards was on a living room table. A coin collection plus a tube of about $10 and silver half dollars were in drawers. There were watches and jewelry in the bedroom.

Speaker 1: 16:07

And again, these news articles, newspaper clippings, are up on the Triple M Podcast's website for your perusal. I find that periodic newspaper articles like these often can provide very valuable information and context into past criminal cases, even if they're decades old. In this case, yes, on its face the crime is clearly gruesome and heinous, but these newspaper articles, I think, paint the picture from that perspective in time Better than really we can imagine it. And based on these articles, it's very clear this was a horribly, horribly gruesome, brutal crime. Mother, father, young 12 year old daughter all killed. It's just so hard to imagine a human being being able to do this, especially when you think about young Joy. To me, these murders feel more personal, substantial and possibly meaningful to the perpetrator than what seems to have been thought of or conceived of in the investigation in 1966. There are so many details to this family murder that seem deeply personal and or possibly symbolic of something just a deeper level. We just don't know.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Consider the blindfolds on Mr and Mrs Sims, but no blindfold on Joy. And Joy is the one that is stabbed over and over again. Her body was mutilated and mauled far worse than her parents. Why wouldn't a blindfold have been put on her? And what does that mean? Also, consider the sheer brutality of this multiple murder, especially against the youngest and the most innocent party involved, again Joy.

Speaker 1: 18:04

The following description, which I've already read once from the newspaper, really gets to me. Quote the child was lying on her back on the floor, stabbed seven times and shot once. Two plunges of the knife, probably double edged, long and wide, had been deep, one penetrated the liver and the other severing the aorta. The blade had sunk into the right side of the middle chest, almost under the arm and even with the breastbone, and again below the center of the breastbone, almost on a line between these two stab wounds, were five less deep wounds, all apparently inflicted in rapid succession. Now I can't imagine the kind of anger no rage that could possibly fuel a person to do such a thing to a young, innocent child. Consider the depth required to stab, to sever the aorta and to penetrate the liver. A person would absolutely have to be totally and completely committed to putting their full weight and strength behind such stabbings. Half measures or a half-hearted knife attack would not accomplish what was done to Joy Sim's body.

Speaker 1: 19:22

It seems to me that the perpetrator or perpetrators yes, I do think that's possible is a person or persons who could only fit into one of a couple of categories. Before I go into that, though, regarding the possibility of multiple perpetrators, even with a gun, it seems to me that a single home invader where, in my mind, mr and Mrs Sims had nothing to lose in physically challenging the intruder in order to save their beloved young daughter's life would have been able to tag team the intruder and overpower them. Possibly the element of surprise could have leveled the playing field for the intruder or intruders, and this would depend on the level of planning and the quality of execution of the plan to be able to have the benefit of the element of surprise. Or I suppose the intruder could possibly have just been very lucky in how this went down and took place. I have several children and I know without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, if my youngest daughter was present in the presence of a clearly hostile and deviant home intruder, I would have aggressively attacked, without regard for my own life. As my father used to say while growing up, when talking about wanting or intending to accomplish a certain goal, he would use a specific phrase all out, massive action. And that's what I would have used here and I think most parents would. Now, I'm not faulting Mr and Mrs Sims I don't know what happened so I can't judge but a more likely scenario to me seems to be that there was more than one intruder, which caused Mr and Mrs Sims to not be able to engage.

Speaker 1: 20:59

Okay, so now back to the categories of people that I feel like the perpetrator or perpetrators could only fit into, given the brutality, the gruesomeness and the grotesqueness of these murders, again, especially with regard to joy. So in my mind, the first category would be a person who is drunk or high on some drug likely high on a drug beyond the ability to comprehend the severity and gravity of their actions and possibly not even know at all what they're actually doing. But I don't think this is likely, because I believe that Mr and Mrs Sims would be highly likely to be able to overpower such a person, so this does not seem likely to me. The second category of person that possibly could fit the mold would be someone who is enraged beyond a measure that you or I, at least, I hope anyway could even come close to understanding, again, considering that such heinous actions and bodily mutilation were inflicted against joy.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Third category of person someone who is a flat-out serial murderer, sexual deviant, who had been targeting joy Sims for quite some time, who had the specific intent to kill Joy and, as part of that process of killing her, to specifically mutilate her body, for example as part of a type of ritual killing, with then Mr and Mrs Sims' deaths merely representing collateral damage in that person's plans with Joy. And fourth, a psychopath or sociopath who found their way into the home of the Sims, for whatever reason and by whatever means, and decided that they had a compelling need or requirement, for whatever reason, to kill everyone that was home Robert, helen and Joy. For example, someone who finds their way into the home, who is a psychopath or sociopath, who determines that they need to get rid of all witnesses. But this would not explain why the attack on Joy was so over the top, so brutal and so gruesome. Alternatively, however, it seems possible that the murderer may have been so brutal and mutilating towards Joy to cause authorities to think about and classify this crime and these murders as something that they were not, in other words, to throw authorities off of the scent of what was really going on. For example, if the killer was a disgruntled employee who worked under Robert Sims at the Florida State Department of Education, whose entire intent was to kill Mr Sims but then decided to brutally and grotesquely kill Joy in the manner that was done, in order to cause authorities to profile the killer, in this case in a manner that would not cause suspicion to point to themselves. Now, this type of intelligence and planning almost certainly would have to be done by a psychotic mind, as psychopaths are far more planned, organized and often more intelligent under pressure than our sociopaths. Sociopaths tend to be far more impulsive in their decisions and actions.

Speaker 1: 24:04

The investigation in this case discussed and offered absolutely no evidence that I could find whatsoever about when specific wounds were inflicted on Joy Sims. Was she stabbed so many times after she had been shot and was already dead, or was she stabbed first, with the killer, watching her bleed out and then shot her in the head simply for good measure. These types of details truly matter, but I found no evidence whatsoever of these kinds of inquiries being made during this investigation, and these kinds of inquiries would provide a lot of valuable information about what was the intent of the intruder and murderer, why were they there, what caused them to do what they did, because the brutality, the savagery against Joy becomes, in a way, this litmus test that we're able to use if we have enough information about when certain injuries were inflicted, regarding the intentions and desires and motivations of the attacker, and we simply, as far as I can tell, don't have any of that information. It wasn't investigated, from what I can tell.

Speaker 1: 25:12

Finally, I want you to consider us to consider the different depths and possibly different types of stab wounds on Joy Sims body. Two stab wounds were deep and wide, severing the aorta and stabbing into the liver. Those are stab wounds, like I said moments ago, that require absolute dedication behind the force that's required to do that kind of damage, and very dissimilarly. The other five stab wounds were quite superficial and shallow and other than the fact that from the investigation, we're told or rather the newspaper reporters were told that those five stab wounds were possibly, depending on how you interpret the language in the newspaper article all seven stab wounds were inflicted in rapid succession. What does that mean and what does that tell us? It tends to take my mind to the idea that there were two people doing two different types of stabbings One with possibly the right kind of knife and absolutely committed to stabbing deep and hard, and another that seems to be not quite as committed and possibly has a different kind of knife. I don't know, the investigation doesn't talk about that, but in any case, the second person having far less conviction in their desire to mutilate little Joy's body. I don't understand the difference in dichotomy between these two very different types of stabbings and I just have to believe that there's something about those two different types of stabbings that tells us something key about this case, but at this point I just don't have enough information to be able to draw any conclusions, only suppositions.

Speaker 1: 27:04

Alright, the next topic that I want to discuss in my mind is quite humorous, but it's also very serious. In the last newspaper article that I read to you from the Tallahassee Democrat, that article being dated October 25th 1966, the newspaper article states that the sheriff said, quote the High Court rulings have proved a big stumbling block in questioning people in connection with the case. Questioning people in the case depends solely on their willingness to cooperate. They can refuse to answer questions and can demand a lawyer, a public expense Ahhhhh, ai-ai-ai-oi-ve. Don't even know if I'm using that right, but it sounds right. I find this comical, because this really seems like a whining, complaining statement that, in my mind, plays out something like this Well, we just can't do very good because we can't ask people questions. They can just not answer our questions, they don't have to talk to us, they can refuse our questioning and they can demand a lawyer that we have to pay for.

Speaker 1: 28:15

Now I want to ask you the question, and if you don't get this right, I'm going to pull all of the substantial hair that is on the top of my head out, because every American should know this answer what is the source from which American citizens, and really anyone in the United States, has the right to remain silent when it comes to talking to police? And I'll even give you a clue the name that I'm looking for comes from a certain name of certain rights that you, I guarantee, have heard thousands, at least hundreds of times, but probably thousands of times. What is the name of this right and the source of this right? It's the Miranda rights, the right to remain silent. And I would accept the answer of the Miranda rights. I would also accept the Fifth Amendment, the right to not incriminate yourself. And how do you not incriminate yourself? You shut the foobar up. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, shut your mouth.

Speaker 1: 29:25

Now, when I'm talking to my own clients, and especially if there's been an issue or problem with this in the past, the language I use with them is quite a bit more affirmative, if you get my drift, than how I've said it here. Yeah, it just blows me away when clients call people from the jail phone and admit to things or make a phone call that the phone call in and of itself is the commission of a crime, like violating an order of protection. Any of you that this applies to, please, for the love of all that is good and holy, stop just causing your attorney problems that they have to fix and probably can't fix. Okay, next question why is it called the Miranda rights? I'm guessing you don't know that. Well, it's from Miranda v Arizona, known to attorneys as 384 US 436, among other citations that apply to the case. Well, the reason it's called the Miranda rights is that in Miranda v Arizona, the United States Supreme Court made certain holdings.

Speaker 1: 30:32

And just to explain, a holding is where a court officially puts out presidential not presidential presidential determination or decision that can be cited in the future as the rule of law on a given specific item or issue in the law. So a holding is the very specific decision, announced, rule announced by a court with proper jurisdiction on a given issue or area of law that that court has jurisdiction over. In that particular case and in the case of the United States Supreme Court, yeah, they pretty much have all the power and authority. Now, interestingly, only as to federal law and the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and the Sixth Amendment, right to counsel, legal counsel are incorporated into state law through the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution. So in actual fact, these rights apply at both the state and the federal levels.

Speaker 1: 31:31

Well, among the key holdings in Miranda v Arizona, the United States Supreme Court held that, quote the privilege against self-incrimination is fulfilled only when the person is guaranteed the right to remain silent unless he chooses to speak in the unfettered exercise of his own will. End quote. In other words and this is common sense right how does a person have the ability to not incriminate themselves? Shut the foobar up, don't talk. Now, that pertains directly to the Fifth Amendment, applied to the federal government through the Fifth Amendment and applied to the state governments and state law enforcement agencies through the 14th Amendment. By way of the Fifth Amendment.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Now, the right to counsel or legal counsel. In other words, as you've heard it on TV and in movies, you have the right to an attorney and if you cannot afford one, one will be provided for you at no expense. That right originates from the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution and it applies to federal law enforcement officers through the Sixth Amendment directly, but it also applies to all state authorities, state governments and state law enforcement officials through the 14th Amendment. And in Miranda v Arizona, the United States Supreme Court held, with regard to the Sixth Amendment, right to counsel. That quote when the person who has been warned of his right to counsel the signs that he wishes to consult with counsel before making a statement, the interview is terminated at that point. End quote. So when you see in TV and movies the police officer is frustrated or the prosecution frustrated because the perp just lawyer it up. Well, that's accurate.

Speaker 1: 33:11

If they're trying to question a perpetrator or a suspect and they assert their right to counsel, the law enforcement officers must immediately cease the interrogation, cease the questioning. Now you do need to know that that's not necessarily a permanent thing. There are things that can happen that reopen the door and allow police to reengage in interrogation and questioning. The most common is if the perpetrator or the suspect voluntarily starts speaking to known law enforcement officers again. Once that happens, the police can then start asking questions and if at some point the suspect again asserts their right to counsel, then the interrogation or questioning has to stop. So what's that cause to come into existence? If you can use your imagination, well, certain gamesmanship can be engaged in to give a suspect or a perpetrator the ability, the access, the accessibility and possibly even some kind of indirect incentive to start speaking to the officers again.

Speaker 1: 34:18

The officers don't have to leave the suspect or the perpetrator alone. They could sit in silence in a room and not ask questions, and they could bring in food or drink. They could even talk about inconsequential things, sports, whatever, totally unrelated to the case, in the hopes that the perpetrator suspect will for some reason re-engage the conversation and start talking again. The requirement simply on the police, on law enforcement, is that they not interrogate, that they not ask questions related to the criminal investigation. Now it is foreseeable that in some jurisdictions or under some courts whether it be federal courts or state courts that a given particular court might hold that such innocuous discussions equals quote, unquote the interview not terminating. Again, that's the rule that Miranda v Arizona gave us with regard to the right to legal counsel and I would expect, under other courts, certain state supreme court decisions at odds with other state supreme court decisions and certain federal circuit courts, possibly at odds with other federal circuit courts, might have differing holdings on what does and what does not constitute a continuation of the interview. I could foresee some court saying innocuous discussion is in fact a continuation of the interview and I could see other courts saying that's not the case.

Speaker 1: 35:47

The last thing I want to say about Miranda is no, you can't get your case thrown out necessarily and usually because the police violated your Miranda by not reading you your Miranda rights. That's not how Miranda works. But I can't tell you how often a client has said to me hey, hey, they didn't read me my Miranda rights. That means we can get this whole case dismissed. No, no, that is not what that means and I really want to slap whoever told you that, and you need to stop taking legal advice from that person or persons.

Speaker 1: 36:22

In this regard and as to this issue, the way Miranda works is this evidence that is illegally obtained must be suppressed and, under the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree doctrine, any evidence that is found after illegal collection of evidence where that later evidence that was found is part of an investigatory chain where that later evidence was found because of the earlier illegally obtained evidence, causes all of that later evidence that's related in that chain to all be inadmissible. Okay, well, so we have to look at legality of collection of evidence with regard to Miranda and the right to not incriminate yourself. If you make self-incriminating statements or admissions After custodial interrogation has begun and I'll explain that in a second, but before you were given your Miranda warnings then those admissions, those confessions, those self-incriminating statements were illegally obtained and are inadmissible and actually, put more accurately, they can be suppressed. They're not admissible because they are suppressable, which affirmatively requires the defendant and their legal counsel to file a motion to suppress that evidence. And if that motion is not filed at a pretty early time in the case, if that's brought up like a trial, hey, wait, wait, wait. You can't present that because it's suppressable. That's too late to suppress it. That has to be done earlier through a specific motion requesting that the court suppress that specific evidence that you think should be suppressed.

Speaker 1: 38:01

So, because of how this works, the procedure and process that every police officer should use is the second the moment they're beginning an investigation of any kind. Read the Miranda warnings. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to an attorney. If you can't afford one, one will be provided to you at no cost. Because once the Miranda warning is given, if you make incriminating statements, if you make admissions or confessions, then that was legally obtained and it is admissible. Your own confession, if you made it after you were given the Miranda warnings, it's admissible in court and you're going to have a hell of a time dealing with that case because of that admission. So again, the rule is after custodial interrogation has begun, but prior to Miranda warnings being given by the law enforcement officer. If in that intervening time you make admissions, confessions or statements of a self-incriminating nature, that then is considered illegally obtained evidence, just a confession and is inadmissible in court.

Speaker 1: 39:03

So what is custodial interrogation? It's going to be different in every jurisdiction. It's going to be defined very differently in different states and under different statutes and rules and guidelines. Generally speaking, if a police officer has stopped you just to talk to you, they've not said you're under arrest, and if you reasonably believe you're not free to leave and maybe, better put, a reasonable person would believe that they were not free to leave then custodial interrogation has begun. You don't have to be under hot light, you don't have to be down at the police station for custodial interrogation to begin. You don't have to be under arrest. Again, if a police officer is talking to you and a reasonable person would not believe that they're free to leave, it's pretty safe to say that custodial interrogation has begun. Again, the law and the rules are different specifically in every different jurisdiction, so you can't use this as a one-size-fits-all, but that's kind of the general way it works.

Speaker 1: 40:00

So, to conclude this aspect of this episode with regard to Miranda v Arizona and Miranda rights, I find it comical and humorous that the sheriff is bemoaning, as if it's this new unusual rule from the US Supreme Court, that witnesses don't have to cooperate with the police and don't have to talk to the police if they don't want to, and have the right to demand an attorney at cost to the public, because these things come straight out of the United States Constitution. Really, what I think is going on is the sheriff knows that they don't have a clue about who committed these murders, and that is a very scary proposition when you're the head of the law enforcement agency investigating such a widely publicly known crime of this degree of heinousness. In short, I think the sheriff was making excuses and pointing the finger elsewhere as to why the perpetrator had not been found yet. And really, the only reason that the sheriff was able to do this is because Miranda v Arizona was decided on June 13th 1966, just about four months prior to the Sims family slaying. This law has long existed in the Fifth and Sixth Amendments and in the 14th Amendment but Miranda v Arizona was a relatively recent case and that's why the sheriff was able to point to it.

Speaker 1: 41:29

Next is a pretty sad aspect of this case yes, even in light of the heinousness and horrendousness of what occurred to the Sims family and that is that not only did the Sims family lose three family members a loving, caring, providing father, a beautiful, loving, caring, providing mother and a beautiful, young, innocent little 12-year-old sister, niece, granddaughter. This case had far-reaching societal impact, both in Florida state but in the United States generally speaking as well. In one interview that I found in relation to this case and this investigation, an individual who lived very close to the Sims within the same block or few blocks from the Sims spoke about how, back in those days prior to this case occurring, tallahassee was just this tremendous city to have a family in Extremely safe, very cozy, and they spoke about how, prior to the Sims family slaying, no one ever kept their door locked. And we've all heard this kind of thing before right In our own families discussions about the past. At some point in the past our family didn't keep their doors locked, and now you do Well in Florida. This case is what initiated that happening in Florida state and from my research, there seems to be indication that it also had national impact In other reports I came across because of the Sims family slaying in Tallahassee.

Speaker 1: 43:14

After that occurred, women began putting ammonia in squirt guns that they intended to use against any home intruder if they needed to A sort of early type of pepper spray, if you will. I can't imagine being a woman and thinking or feeling like this is what I've got to protect myself Ammonia in a squirt gun. Halloween was canceled in Tallahassee because of the Sims family slaying and possibly in other parts of Florida as well. And another newspaper article in the same newspaper issue that I spoke about and shared a different article with you earlier. This article, being entitled Stay Calm but Lock your Door, said the following Assistant Police Chief Robert Mage today urged Tallahassians to remain calm but to secure their homes, particularly on the north side where the capital's most gruesome crime occurred.

Speaker 1: 44:08

Saturday night A run on locks and guns was reported by hardware and variety stores, beginning yesterday when people learned two murders of a family had been brutally slain and that a third member was near death. Another drug and variety store in the Capital Plaza shopping center said its stock of locks and door chain guards more than a hundred were sold out yesterday and that nine handguns had been sold. Another hardware store on the north side reported customers waiting in line to buy locks and chains early this morning before the store opened. A Southside hardware store, terry Rosa, reported early inquiries today about shotguns for home protection. A big run on locks and door chains was reported early by the downtown hardware store Store. Officials said many of the customers commented that they had never been particularly careful about keeping their homes locked in the past. In short, the Sims family slaying is pretty widely regarded as the cause and the reason for the loss of innocence of Florida State and contributed to the same thing on a federal level.

Speaker 1: 45:25

And this brings us substantively back to where I left you at the end of episode four, at the end of part one of the Sims family slaying discussing Pastor Dr CA Roberts. Now I know I left you on a very, very juicy revelation and tidbit about Dr CA Roberts at the end of episode four and I am gonna get us back to that juicy revelation and tidbit. But first I want to give you some more thorough background and other related information about Dr Roberts. Dr CA Roberts was originally from Waco, texas. He goes to school at Baylor University and does a bachelor's degree. He gets his master's degree and then he does a PhD at Southwestern Baptist Divinity School in Fort Worth, texas. He marries in 1953 and he arrives in Tallahassee by way of Altus, oklahoma, and he immediately makes an amazing impression on the community after taking up the head of the first Baptist Church in Tallahassee. Almost immediately after arriving in Tallahassee, dr CA Roberts wins the Tallahassee Junior Chamber of Commerce man of the Year in 1963. The following year, in 1964, he wins the Florida State man of the Year.

Speaker 1: 46:59

Now turning to Dr CA Roberts involvement with the Sims family and specifically Helen Sims. As I mentioned in episode four, helen Sims was the assistant and secretary to Dr CA Roberts and she had quit her job just days before she, her husband and her youngest daughter were murdered. It's unknown why she resigned. There are obviously rumors related to her resignation and things that were discovered through the investigation, but they're rumors. One thing that is known Helen Sims had a front-row seat to everything that was going on with Dr CA Roberts and I just want you to keep that and bear that in mind that she had a front-row seat to everything that was going on, in other words, everything that I'm about to tell you. Dr CA Roberts was not the man that he portrayed himself to be, as is so often the case with any type of public figure. But to be clear, dr CA Roberts was no exception.

Speaker 1: 48:24

Shortly after the Sims family slaying, dozens of women started calling the sheriff's office to affirmatively tell them they had nothing to do with the Sims family murders, and this perplexed law enforcement. Why all of a sudden, would all of these women, independent of each other, be calling in to say, hey, I had nothing to do with the murder, seemingly out of the blue? Well, law enforcement obviously had to investigate this. The reason that they found was that these women were afraid of being labeled suspects in the murders because all these women were having affairs with Dr Roberts or Dr Roberts was having affairs with them, however you want to call that. And they all would have been aware that Helen Sims had just quit her job at the church working for Dr CA Roberts, whom they were sleeping with.

Speaker 1: 49:22

In one report that I read, law enforcement officers used black lights in Dr CA Roberts' pastoral office and in essence the description was given by Rocky Bevis. Yep, the young son that went to the Sims family home with his father in later years, became a police officer and was involved at later points in time in the ongoing decades-long ongoing investigation of the Sims family slaying and because of that he was privy to knowledge and records of investigations done in 1966. According to Rocky Bevis, when Dr C Roberts' office pastoral office was blacklit, in other words and I don't mean to be crude looking for semen In his characterization. In essence, the entire room lit up like a Halloween glow stick. And in light of a murder investigation, this begs the question, especially because he's a pastor of a southern Baptist church right Strict southern Baptist church. The question arises how is it getting all these women to sleep with him? And it's believed and reported that the answer to that question is that Dr C Roberts wasa spell-binding orator. By one report he was characterized as being viewed in a messianic light by the congregation and by many people and he was described as having essentially a cult following. Rocky Bevis, at one point, states many years later that he believed that Dr C Roberts had followers who would go so far as to kill someone if Dr Roberts told them that that person needed to die.

Speaker 1: 51:22

Well, and because of that characterization, I wondered if possibly there might be a connection between Dr C Roberts and the Ku Klux Klan. And that might seem like an odd issue or question to you, being that the Sims family were, from everything I can tell, as waspish, white, anglo-saxon, protestant as they come. But when I think of murder, and actually multiple murders which could be a product of organized crime in the South, I think of the Ku Klux Klan. In any case, I quickly ruled that out. The research shows that in fact, dr C Roberts was passionate about integrating the First Baptist Church in Tallahassee during his tenure, in other words, bringing black people into the fold in the church to worship equally alongside the white people that belong to the church, and he actually accomplished that. So it seems highly, highly unlikely that someone who has that desire and brought about that particular type of change has any connection to something like the Ku Klux Klan.

Speaker 1: 52:37

In another interview about Dr C Roberts' spellbinding oratory skills, the person speaking said that Dr Roberts was called out for all the convocations, prayers in the legislature, graduation ceremonies and much, much more. First off, this music is a shout out to the Florida State Seminoles, as well as my best friend Tyler, who is Native American. Now, this being episode five, and if you've been paying attention, you should be asking yourself one question right now Was he resourceful enough, good enough at research, cool enough and nice enough to be able to show us directly how smooth of a character Dr C Roberts was? Well, the answer to that's pretty obvious, isn't it? The following is a portion of a Southern Baptist fire and brimstone sermon given by Dr C A Roberts In 1964, just following the Homecoming Festivities, where Dr Roberts lets us know plain and simple and very clearly exactly how he feels about what he saw at the Homecoming Festivities.

Speaker 1: 53:43

I hope that you appreciate the special effort I put into finding exactly the right example of this for you from Dr C A Roberts, and you'll understand what I mean in just a few minutes. Enjoy.

Speaker 2: 53:58

Now Ms Green, in her book Sex on the College Campus, was kind to the South. Or, as she explored the great areas of freedom that have been taken in terms of a new morality, she would very quick to say that the people in the South in general, and the college campuses in the South in particular, had not yet gone as far as the ones in the North or the ones on the West Coast. But what she meant by this was not that the ones in the South had reached the point beyond which they planned to go no farther. What she meant was we're simply a little bit crudish in old fashioned and therefore we need a little more time in the South. But we're headed in the same direction. I think we had an opportunity, those of us who attended the Power of Friday Night. I think we had an opportunity to see the philosophy of the new morality.

Speaker 2: 54:59

There have been so many things that have made me proud about Florida State and the brief time I've been associated with her. I must confess that Friday Night I've never been associated with all of my life. When I call those hundreds and hundreds of people who have driven from all across the state and all across the South to give their children and their friends an impression of the campus that they had loved so dearly. And then I watched there as mothers and dads were quickly trying to scramble their kids out of the stadium before they were completely overwhelmed with what they were seeing and hearing. When I watched our honors get Miss Helen Hayes sit there after having been so impressed with our college in so many other ways. When I watched her sit there and stunned disbelief what she would see and hear hear. When I heard of a Kentucky newspaperman who said well, there's one thing for certain I'd never send my daughter to this school.

Speaker 2: 56:07

I appreciate Harry Day's attempt at apologizing for what took place, but in a sense you can't apologize for what was not just the action of a few, but with the action of a large number. Not only that he didn't represent the action, but he represented the philosophy of the great majority of the campus, as sorority after sorority and fraternity after fraternity followed, one after the other, trying to see which one could reach a new load in an assault to the intelligence of any decent human being. Who was a rightist, I frankly want you to know, I've just never been so ashamed, and I've been associated very closely with most of these sororities and fraternities of this school and know most of the leaders personally, and I want to be quite honest. Sometimes I honestly wonder how you justify your right to exist.

Speaker 1: 57:09

Forward.

Speaker 2: 57:11

So we got a good look at the new morality Friday night and we're quite certain that our town and our community is a part of the direction in which our new countries go. And I keep using the word direction because it's very important not only that we know where we are, but that we know where we used to be and that we know where we're going. This is important Because no one is simply a part of the present. You're no longer a part of what lives. When you walked into this auditorium, you are ever a part of the future in terms of the past and you're moving in a direction, and any historian must know how to evaluate the future and the present in terms of the past.

Speaker 2: 58:02

You read your Old Testament and so many of the things that we say. The Old Testament prophets, these preacher, historians, and sometimes we think that some of the predictions they made as to what was going to happen to society, we think that God gave them some vision, some special knowledge by telegram of what was going to happen, when in reality they were doing nothing more than making and educating a guess at what would ultimately happen to a society if it continues to walk down certain paths. I think it should be both comforting and depressing to know that, although we are very sophisticated in some of our attitudes towards sex, we are not as sophisticated as we can get. Yes, Forward.

Speaker 2: 59:01

Sophistications. You call it whatever you want to, my dear beloved, but you need to know that what you and I, in our day, have been willing to conceive is sophistication. God in His holy book still says that it is sin and those things that we are trying to maneuver into an acceptable position in our society. If you will read the first chapter of the book of Romans, you will find are the very things that, when they finally began occurring in another society in history, the Bible says God gave them up, the only kind of all the Bible. When three times in one chapter of the Bible says and God gave them up. When men burned in their lust, women began to do the things that were not convenient and turned to unrighteousness and wickedness. God gave them over to a reprobate mind. For God has a morality of sex and there are points beyond which he will not allow a society to.

Speaker 1: 1:00:13

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen Dr C A Roberts of the first Baptist church in Tallahassee, Florida, 1964. Hypocrisy is such a sad and frustrating thing, and now you know how Dr Roberts became the first suspect in the murder of Robert Sims, Helen Sims and Joyce Sims. I'm not going to give you the conclusion regarding him being a suspect until we run through all of the suspects, so keep listening to find out. And this is where I leave you tonight. I'm your host, JK Richards. Thank you so much for being here with me today. I hope you enjoyed yourself. I know that I did. Please stay safe out there and I hope to never be telling your story.