If your next chapter includes landing a job you love after a career break, you'll want to listen to today's episode. An excellent way to get your career back on track is through a returnship. These are like internships, but are created for people with mid-level career experience rather than entry-level, and typically require at least a 2-year career break.
If you are curious about returnships, also known as returner programs, you are in for a treat. I've invited Gabrielle Ferguson back to the podcast to share her insider knowledge about how returner programs benefit both the returner and the employer. Gabrielle established a successful returner program for her previous employer and shares her advice on how to wow the hiring team in your application and interviews in these highly competitive programs.
This will be a 2-part series, with the next episode highlighting what to expect on the job as a career returner in these programs.
Below are resources mentioned in the episode where you can find more information about returnships, including current openings:
iRelaunch.com
Path Forward
Reach Hire
Apres
Career Returners
Grab a Free Resume Template for Stay at Home Moms.
Interested in my 1:1 Career Comeback Coaching program? Let's chat!
Send me an email ---> christina@hernextchapters.com
Connect with me on LinkedIn ---> www.linkedin.com/in/kohlchristina
If your next chapter includes landing a job you love after a career break, you'll want to listen to today's episode. An excellent way to get your career back on track is through a returnship. These are like internships, but are created for people with mid-level career experience rather than entry-level, and typically require at least a 2-year career break.
If you are curious about returnships, also known as returner programs, you are in for a treat. I've invited Gabrielle Ferguson back to the podcast to share her insider knowledge about how returner programs benefit both the returner and the employer. Gabrielle established a successful returner program for her previous employer and shares her advice on how to wow the hiring team in your application and interviews in these highly competitive programs.
This will be a 2-part series, with the next episode highlighting what to expect on the job as a career returner in these programs.
Below are resources mentioned in the episode where you can find more information about returnships, including current openings:
iRelaunch.com
Path Forward
Reach Hire
Apres
Career Returners
Grab a Free Resume Template for Stay at Home Moms.
Interested in my 1:1 Career Comeback Coaching program? Let's chat!
Send me an email ---> christina@hernextchapters.com
Connect with me on LinkedIn ---> www.linkedin.com/in/kohlchristina
Hi and welcome to Her Next Chapter's podcast. I'm your host, Christina Kohl. I'm a mom of three and soon to be an empty nester. I'm also a certified HR pro who restarted my career after being a stay-at-home mom for over a decade. I created this podcast to connect with moms who have an empty nest on the horizon and are wanting to redefine their identity outside of motherhood, which might include a job search. On this show, we'll have raw conversations about our ever-changing roles as moms. We'll hear from women who restarted their careers and share tips for a job search after a career break. So if that's you, you're in the right place. Friend, let's get started. Hi, friends, we have a great couple episodes coming up for you. We are going to be talking with Gabrielle Ferguson. She is based in the UK and she's been on the podcast before. She is a repeat guest.
Christina Kohl:Gabrielle has a career in HR and now she is a goal strategist, and earlier in the year she talked. We had a couple sessions around goals and I wanted to pick her brain around returner programs. When she was in her last role in human resources, she launched at her organization her company a returner program that lasted for three years, and so she was the in-house orchestrator of all of that. I invited her back to kind of pick her brain about how that all worked and to describe a little bit more in detail for the listeners. What is a returner program in the US? Sometimes you'll hear them called returnships so kind of like an internship to really design for mid-level careers where people have taken a break and in fact you have to have been on a career break in order to even qualify for these positions. And since Gabrielle was an in-house manager and creator of a program, I really wanted to learn from her the insights from the company's perspective what these programs are like and also her insights around how applicants can excel in their application process and in the interviews. And because this is a pretty long conversation that Gabrielle and I had, I'm going to split it into two episodes. In the second episode we're going to talk a bit more about what you can expect so great you've gotten the job, what's your first day like, what are those first weeks like, what kind of supports do you get in this type of program and what tips that she has for your success. So it's going to be a two-part episode and I'm just so excited and so honored that Gabrielle's taking the time to share these insights with us. These returner programs are such an excellent way for women, especially state-owned moms, to be able to return to work and know that that gap, that career gap, is welcomed and it's understood and you are supported in the return, and these programs are very, very competitive. So Gabrielle's insights about how to shine and how to be successful are going to be priceless. All right, well, with that, let's get started.
Christina Kohl:Welcome to this week's episode of Her Next Chapters. I am so excited that we have our special guest with us today, gabrielle Ferguson, our goal strategist, who joined us earlier. And Gabrielle has an experience as an HR manager and with returner programs. And so, gabrielle, please share with us a little bit about your background with returner programs. And so, gabrielle, please share with us a little bit about your background with returnships what we call them here in the US. In the UK, I believe, they're called returner programs. So, yeah, if you could share with us a little bit about your background there. And that's what we're going to talk about. The whole episode today is these returnship and returner programs helping women get back to work.
Gabrielle Ferguson:Thank you so much, christina. It is so lovely to be back as a return guest. I've been really excited for this conversation. In my previous role my previous employer, one of my responsibilities was leading managing the returner program that we ran. So my former employer was in this space all around kind of tech and customer data science and it was something that we were really, really passionate about. So if you haven't heard of returner programs, aka returnships, before, they are a a specific program run in-house by an organization with the purpose is to facilitate bringing women specifically back into the workplace at this is the crucial part at a mid-senior level. So returning to the workplace, the workforce, after a sustained career break. My experience of running these programmes is at one organisation, so that's the one that I'll be describing the programme and how we have that set up. But a lot of this is up for discussion, up for debate. If you're somebody working in-house excited or interested to bring these programmes on board, there's lots of scope for discussion on a lot of the points that we'll discuss today.
Christina Kohl:What are the requirements for someone to be eligible for a returner program Like what do they need to have? You mentioned mid career, what else?
Gabrielle Ferguson:The program that I ran, the length of career break was one of the big points around eligibility. So we required people to have had a career break of two years or more, so a minimum of a two year break. But we did not have a maximum, which I think is the really interesting point. So I was responsible for three cohorts, three intakes of this program and I believe the longest career break we had where we hired somebody they were successful in their application I think was 12 years, so quite a considerable length of time.
Christina Kohl:Yeah, definitely. Well, my break was 13 years, so I would have been the record holder. You would have definitely. Well, my break was 13 years, so I can.
Gabrielle Ferguson:I would have been the record holder.
Christina Kohl:You would have, definitely. When you think of an internship, sometimes for someone, a new college grad or a college student you think of well, it could be a volunteer that they're just getting the experience, or it could be a paid internship the program that you ran was it paid?
Gabrielle Ferguson:Or it could be a paid internship, the program that you ran. Was it paid? It was paid, definitely, and the sort of guideline that I would give around salary is, of course, that is impacted by the area of the business that you're joining, because salaries differ between you know tech and IT and legal, for example. Of course you know tech and IT and legal, for example, of course, and the salaries that we would offer would be in the middle range of the sort of pay quarter that we would normally offer. So we would aim for the middle of that sort of salary band, for that level of role.
Christina Kohl:Okay, and I think that's typical here in the U S as well. They are paid opportunities. Are these positions typically short-term, like how? Like time limited, or are you just hiring direct, as you know, into an employee relationship?
Gabrielle Ferguson:There are two different ways of doing it. One way is a direct entry, where it's a facilitated program with some additional support that you are hiring into essentially a permanent contract. That's one way of doing it. That's not the way that we ran our program for various reasons, but it absolutely is an option. The second way, and the route that we went down at that time, was to initially hire on a six month fixed term contract with the provision and the mindset and the commitment that if this opportunity is working well on both sides so the individual employee is happy, settled, comfortable, performing, et cetera, and also from the organization's side happy, comfortable performance levels are where they need to be Then there would be a job offer at the end of the six month contract.
Christina Kohl:Okay, I'm thinking like a return shipping one person. Did you hire a bunch of group together that they go through the program together, or was it more individual? As an, as a department had a need?
Gabrielle Ferguson:We hired a cohort every year, a minimum of four people. Of course it's dictated by quality of applications and candidates and a successful hiring process, but I think the last cohort was maybe 10 or 12 people or 12 people, so there's a number of people being hired at the same time on the same program for different roles across different departments. So that was kind of how it worked. So it was this, this wave. You know that you do join as a cohort and you have comrades that are in exactly the same boat as you on the program, which is is really important. And again, just speaking about the programs that I ran and I was responsible for, our success rate of offering a job at the end of the trial period was 95%.
Christina Kohl:Wow, what are some advantages that you saw for the people that you worked with?
Gabrielle Ferguson:that you saw for the people that you worked with. I think the biggest advantage is the support available. The support is a key component of the program. It's built into the program that there is this common level, a foundation level of understanding that you've had a break, acknowledging it and I would say also embracing it. Embracing that you've had a break, acknowledging it and I would say also embracing it, embracing that you've had a break. There's no need to hide it or try to fudge dates on your CV. You know it's very upfront. I think that that's huge and that went a long way towards the confidence of the women applying for the program and who were successful, towards the confidence of the women applying for the program and who were successful, I think.
Gabrielle Ferguson:Secondly, in our program, the hiring managers and people that would go on then to be line managers of these individuals were trained and I think that is a crucial part of the program as well trained on how to interview someone for a returner program, because it's very easy to slip into those defaults. For example, asking give me a example of when you python 2.60, for example. You know it's not, you know I'm making that up. But talking about technology, you know, you know I'm making that up, but talking about technology that's been out and available for the last eight months. Well, if someone's had a career break for five years, immediately you're putting them on the back foot right immediately. You're knocking their confidence and unsettling them. So it was a it was a different type of interview structure and we trained our managers to do that and to do that well. And also, in terms of the interview process, our hiring managers were partnered with somebody involved in the program. So a lot of the time that was me to be with them as a kind of checks, checks and balances, and to mitigate any of that and to make sure that we were following the structure that we'd set out, and a lot of that was one we needed managers to be on board. That this isn't your typical hiring program. There has been a career break but also to allow the individuals that we were interviewing, allow them to shine, allow them to give, maybe, personal examples as answers to the questions Of course, they still need to be relevant, but in order to do that freely and confidently, to know that you know people have been trained and they're expecting you to use personal examples, I think again is a really key component.
Gabrielle Ferguson:So I would say that's a huge advantage. You know, there's a range of things in terms of rebuilding your confidence, access to training. So once you've been successfully hired, of course there's a grace period where we will fill in the gaps and get you trained and up to speed. And often I found the women that we had applying and then interviewed were hungry for knowledge, hungry to fill in the gaps. You know, really curious, really passionate about the work that they used to do and wanting to get up to speed. So I think that training piece is a huge component as well. And also just realistic expectations that you get a chance to at the risk of using a cliche, you know, get your feet under the table. There isn't an expectation to be, for example, hit the ground running. That's not applicable with a returner program. There's an acknowledgement there that you need a couple of weeks to learn, to absorb, you know, access to mentoring, to buddies, to, you know, familiarize yourself again as well, which is very different from just, you know, dropping straight back into the workforce.
Christina Kohl:Well, I was going to say I think one of the big advantages that I see for return to programs is just getting that experience, even if it doesn't turn into a job at the end. It's giving you current experience. For that you know some, for some programs might be four months, some six months, and you've got current experience. You're back into the rhythm of working life and just the your schedule and and and you know whether you're remote or in person. And actually, were your programs in person or were they remote? Did they have a little combination?
Gabrielle Ferguson:well, it was our first program launched in 2020, so you can guess the answer to that and actually, what we were really proud of, um, that year. So many organizations paused and halted their programs as a result of covid hitting, as a result of things changing, and we were one of the few that continued. Um, naturally, we were quite well set up for remote working, being a tech organization, so that's not the same in every industry, but we translated and went, you know, a hundred percent virtual overnight. You know, lockdown happened very suddenly in the UK, it was literally from one day to the next. So, um, so that worked in our favor, but there are, of course, many logistical things that we had to figure out how to onboard somebody completely virtually, without setting foot in an office, etc.
Gabrielle Ferguson:It was, it was a wild time for those of us in HR and you know, starting a new job and you've never met your manager or colleagues in person, you might have worked with them for maybe 18 months before you had an opportunity to meet them in person, with them for maybe 18 months before you had an opportunity to meet them in person.
Gabrielle Ferguson:That's a whole other scenario that none of us had really experienced before, unless you were already a remote worker, so so, so we had a range of those things, um. So we, I would say the first cohort was pretty much all virtual cohorts two and three, it was more of a hybrid approach. Um, and I, we always recommended that for people's first day, or a couple of days of their first week that they were in person, yeah, as a chance to get to the office, connect with a couple of people. But then, of course, you know we're very, very au fait with hybrid working by then and you know, wasn't an expectation to be in the office every day? Certainly not. So, yeah, a range, a real mix, which I think is a sign of the times that we've just come through, the last few years.
Christina Kohl:Right and probably will continue, at least the hybrid part of it. So we kind of talked about advantages for the individual and you mentioned, you kind of alluded to it. But if we can kind of go a little bit deeper about the advantages for the individual and you mentioned, you kind of alluded to it but if we can kind of go a little bit deeper about the advantages for the employer, like why would an employer be interested in doing this? What are the benefits to them?
Gabrielle Ferguson:First of all, straight off the bat, I don't know any organization that hasn't faced the conundrum of we have roles to fill and not enough quality candidates. I think that's just universal. So the biggest advantage is the opportunity and, I would say, being on the other side of it, the pleasure of tapping into a talent pool of people that have typically been overlooked. And when I tell you the literal gems, you know we had absolute diamonds in that talent pool that we were able to attract to our program and it very much is an attraction piece that I think needs to be considered and framed in that way where we met women with the most mind-blowing, incredible experience that blew us away as candidates that had previously been turned down, applying direct, you know, in all of the normal ways due to their career break. So we were able to really maximize that. So that was huge and I cannot overstate that enough. I'm still in touch with some of the women that were on the programs that I ran. I look forward to seeing their careers flourish and grow. Many of them, by the end of their first year with us, were being promoted because the level of talent I honestly I can't state that strongly enough. You're honestly missing a trick if you're not involved in returner programs. So that was the first thing, of course. Secondly, there is a diversity and inclusion angle to these programs. Secondly, there is a diversity and inclusion angle to these programs. Let's be clear around that. So it's different, I think, in the UK to the US. But we have in the UK, for example, a gender pay gap report. If you're an organization with over I believe it's over 100 employees, then you need to provide data on your salaries and how they correspond to gender at different levels.
Gabrielle Ferguson:Programs like this and this is why I was really clear at the beginning these were targeted at the mid-senior level. As we know from the research and data in the reports that often this is where there is that glass ceiling. It's where women in their careers, if they are taking a break to begin a family, it happens when you're in that mid to senior sort of level and that makes the re-entry more difficult. So our programs were specifically targeted there. These are not and I know that you've said it, Christina, you're passionate about it these are not internships and they're not targeted that kind of junior levels or entry level employees deliberately. So there was a strong diversity inclusion angle there. So there was a strong diversity and inclusion angle there.
Gabrielle Ferguson:There's something to be said around loyalty retention from employees on these programs that are grateful to have been given that opportunity.
Gabrielle Ferguson:They maximize it.
Gabrielle Ferguson:Like I said, they're hungry to get back to work and ready for it.
Gabrielle Ferguson:So I think you just get a really high quality of people and it's an opportunity to fill roles where maybe you've had very similar profiles of people and we get to diversify that in many ways, gender being one, but also background and experience, and I think there's nothing better someone who's worked in the D&I space for quite some time. There's nothing better than shaking up the, the profile of, let's say, an engineer you know and and changing forever the expectations of what an engineer looks like, sounds like the experience that they've had, and doing that in a very natural, authentic way by just hiring really great people in this case women for this particular program and having you know, allowing them to get up to speed and then allowing them to demonstrate what they're capable of. It speaks for itself and it really started to have this ripple effect across the organization around expectations and around TNI particularly diversity of thought and a better recognition of what people can bring to the table when they have a non-traditional background. Recognition of what people can bring to the table when they have a non-traditional background.
Christina Kohl:So so the the advantages were were huge, let alone the kind of brand and reputational pieces too. Yeah, you had mentioned, I think one year you had four in the cohort, but by the last year you had 12. So I'm assuming that there's a cultural shift, maybe that has happened during those three years and an acceptance and an appreciation of the program to see that type of growth. I don't know, maybe it was the applicants versus internally, but I have a feeling that the managers had to maybe see it and experience it to understand it and value it.
Gabrielle Ferguson:It was yes, definitely a bit of both.
Gabrielle Ferguson:So our application numbers increased year on year for sure. And when other hiring managers saw the success in maybe other areas, other departments, the following year, when my email went out to managers explaining the program, or you know, I ended up running these sort of very informal, almost roadshows Like come, if you're curious, come and find out more about the program, let me tell you how it works, let me tell you what's required. Here are some of the deadlines. If you want to put, you know you have a role to fill and you'd like this to be in the mix. Let's have a chat.
Gabrielle Ferguson:That started to grow quite naturally, because there's nothing better than referrals and word of mouth, right? So the fact that some of these hiring managers from year one were, you know, singing the praises of their returners, it started to sell itself. So it became easier and, from my recollection, year two and year three, we started to expand into different areas of the business, different departments Then said actually I've got a role that falls within the time frame and I commit to the training and I commit to the expectations. So actually I'd love to put my role forward and see if we can find a returner as well. We can find a returner as well. So it was really, really positive, and I think my message to any anybody in house that might be listening to this is don't be afraid to start small. It's still worth running a cohort, running a program. Even if there's I'm doing air quotes because I know we're not on video Even if there's only two or three people, it's still absolutely worth running.
Christina Kohl:Something I want to hone in on that you mentioned earlier, when we're talking about the advantages for the individual and and you had, the managers were trained, so they kind of knew this is a different interview style and that you train them in a way that would allow the candidate to shine. Yes, so I want to go back to that part where these at least in the U? S and I'm assuming in the UK as well these programs are incredibly competitive. There are way more applicants and candidates applying than there are positions. What advice do you have or what did you see in the application process? We'll back up even before the interview, when an applications came across your desk or in your on your computer. What helps somebody stand out like? What would help them grab? What would grab your attention to get an interview? And obviously it's unique to each position that you're looking for, but just curious if you have any insights around that.
Gabrielle Ferguson:sure my general advice would be and this probably goes across both application and interview to be honest, yeah, number one, be authentic, be yourself, tell your story and, I think, go in with the, the mindset and the confidence that, with luck, you know all of these managers have been trained. And remember it's a returner program for a reason. So we want to hear both sides of one, anything that's applicable and relevant from your personal life. Give a personal example to illustrate the skills and capabilities that we're looking for. Don't be afraid to talk about your previous work experience. Even if it was five, 10 years ago, it's still relevant.
Gabrielle Ferguson:It gives us a sense of you know what you've done, where your interests lie, the success that you've previously had. So just because it's, you know, a longer timeframe, don't be afraid to talk about it. Give as many specifics as you can. But also there is a recognition that was part of the training too is sometimes the exact specifics, or exact, you know, percentage increase might be a little hazy at 10 years ago, so actually we accounted for that. So I think that was one thing is to really tell your story, and I think we got to hear so many unique backgrounds, which was so interesting for us, as you know, on the recruitment side.
Christina Kohl:Would they tell their story in their cover letter? Or did you have a part of the application form just kind of open ended for that? Or was it on the record?
Gabrielle Ferguson:Yeah, ours was really simple CV and cover letter, ok, and we asked, depending on the role, we asked specific questions to be covered in the cover letter. So, you know, that would maybe depend a little bit more on the department, but there were very broad, you know, general things, nothing scary, um, I think also maybe just remembering nothing is there to catch you out, you know. So don't don't overthink the questions. And, and you know, there's no need to kind of put on a show If we're asking for, give us some details as much as you can around your previous experience on X, you know, and it's not there as a trap of any kind, it is there for us to get to know you. So I think just, yeah, that's kind of what I mean by that point.
Gabrielle Ferguson:By that point I also would say again, application, specific as well is just like with any other hiring process. We would expect you to do a little bit of reading up on the organization. So what definitely wouldn't work, what would be a red flag to me, would be sending in and we did have this, unfortunately sending in a generic blanket CV and cover letter that you send to, let's say, 15 different returner programs with no personalization. You know, and it's very obvious when you're reading it. I know that can be tempting, if you feel overwhelmed or you're running short on time, to just create something quite standard and send it in and hope for the best. But, as you say, christina, you rightly said, these are competitive, so we want to know that you've actually deliberately applied to us and deliberately applied for this role, rather than I'll just send this out to any tech related role that I can find in the country, for example, right. So I think that's super important, um, and and really demonstrating again as best you can within your circumstances, if there is anything that you have done to stay current, so demonstrating knowledge, so it could be.
Gabrielle Ferguson:You know, I let's say I, you know have expanded our family, which is a beautiful thing to do. We have three kids under you know, 10. So I'm not able to do any kind of formal training at home, but I listen to this podcast and this is some of the key topics that I find really interesting and etc. All of it counts and I think it's recognizing that and knowing that when you put all of that together in an application, it helps bring your CV to life and bring you to life as a candidate, and that's what we want to see. That's what we base our decisions from. We want to see, that's what we base our decisions from. So the more you can give us, the better in terms of actually helping us to get to know you and understand your story and understand your background.
Christina Kohl:All right. So, gabrielle, that was great about the application, like the CV and the storytelling. What about in the interview itself, like how can people shine in the interview?
Gabrielle Ferguson:self Like how can people shine in the interview? The similarities between a return of program interview and a normal, standard interview are that we'll be asking questions and wanting to hear answers and you will be given a chance to ask us, you know, any questions on the other side. So that remains the same. I would say key, key things. I would get people to consider number one when we give time to ask questions, that's there for a reason. That's your opportunity to pick our brains, hear more about us, the roles that we cover. You know, and it really is a ask anything.
Gabrielle Ferguson:If there are things that are concerning you or that you're just curious about, please do take that opportunity because that also demonstrates part of your you know it's still a part of the interview process. It demonstrates where your thinking is. So I would definitely say that curiosity piece and ask questions, be prepared to ask questions. That is always looked on favorably and considering you know what we're talking about returning to work after a significant break. It would be maybe a red flag is too strong, but it would be maybe a light orange flag if you didn't have questions, because surely there are things that you would want to know and that could be from the. You know the big picture strategy of the organization, kind of questions up to you. Know what time is lunch Because I've got caring responsibilities, or what do people generally do around? You know working flexibly, for example? You know, actually, if there are things that you need to know to make this work for you, that's your opportunity. Ask the question.
Christina Kohl:Right. So I'm even thinking of a question of how do people handle when their kids are sick and how do they negotiate that. And now, in a typical interview I may be a little uncomfortable asking that question because it's like, oh, was she even committed? She's going to be, you know, running off all home all the time. But I would think in a returnship type of situation it would be more acceptable to ask that type of question and and as a returner I would need to know that answer Like is this going to work for my family? Because they're still, you know, my guys still have kids and they still get sick and when they're growing up and everything else, I can't just leave them. So am I on target there? That type of question would be welcomed and appropriate.
Gabrielle Ferguson:Welcomed, appropriate and valid valid. This is a big deal. That you are putting yourself out there applying for a program and preparing yourself to return to work. It's a perfectly valid question and you need to know the answer to make a really good decision for you and your family and really good employers who are running programs like this. They get that, so be unapologetic about asking it. I, you know, would be, would be my advice. If I was running a program like this again, I'd be prepared with the answer you know. And that leads me on to my second point. In the interviews, again, what comes across very favorably is demonstrating that you have clearly considered the logistics of returning, that if you're serious about this program, you know specifically with this organization and this role, surely as part of your application, you know specifically with this organization and this role, surely as part of your application, you know process and prep. You've considered okay, let's say, the organization has one day a week in the office and you live, I don't know, 50 miles away. How are you going to make that work? And I think that should be part of your prep, just naturally. But also, if there are questions, you need to ask about that or or demonstrating that you've thought about it, and these are the things I've put in place, but I might only be able to do that once every two weeks rather than every week because of this. How does that land with you? It's your chance to clarify those expectations up front with the people that are going to be making those decisions. So I would, I think the two kind of work hand in hand.
Gabrielle Ferguson:And lastly so I'm assuming you know your relevant examples, et cetera, for you know this kind of standard interview questions but lastly, I would say, do not underestimate the importance and the power of demonstrating enthusiasm, enthusiasm and passion. If you're excited about this, show us that you're excited, show us that you can't wait. You know, demonstrate the things that you're most excited about learning, learning about and and that comes across so well because you know, christina, you've you've done a lot of hiring in your career too that you want to work with people that want to work there. Yes, no organization is perfect, but if you're super excited about this opportunity and here's all the reasons why and you know you mentioned this in the job advert. So I looked this up and I found this Could you tell me more about it? All of that speaks to wow this person's committed, they're ready, they want this.
Gabrielle Ferguson:And I think sometimes all of us you know, families and career breaks aside can shy away from that with the goal or the desire to be seen as professional. I think there can sometimes be I'm going to hold back and be, you know, almost quite stoic to show how professional I am. I mean, professionalism comes in all shapes and forms. I would rather hire somebody that's really excited, that's ready, that's done, the logistics, can demonstrate their skills and capability, has clearly prepared for this interview. Comes with some questions, but actually show me that you're excited about this, because that is what we want. So don't be afraid of doing that. Even if you've been out of, you know, paid work, because you're probably still working, if you're on a career break in some shape or form, if, even if you've been out of paid work for a while, don't, don't shy away from that. I think that's really, really important and something people hold themselves back on.
Christina Kohl:that something people hold themselves back on. That is that something you saw in interviews people holding back you, like they're maybe just kind of nervous and trying to be professional and instead of like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited, I, this is the best opportunity for me and I really hope you know that there's that I can see where the nerves and also I just need to be professional. Did you see that happen?
Gabrielle Ferguson:at times. Yeah, we definitely did see it and we did our best as an interview panel to, you know, settle in, build rapport, you know, clearly explain the structure of what would happen. You know, warmed people up as best we can, but it's also remembering that we've got limited time with you. Right, and for fairness, we need to be consistent with the time that we spend interviewing each person. It's unrealistic to expect, you know, half an hour of chit chat to to get you really comfortable, because then we'd have to give that to everybody to be fair. So there needs to be a balance between the two. And, of course, part of the training is understanding people might be more nervous than average because of the career break. So we were ready that we had.
Gabrielle Ferguson:You know, starting with broader interview questions, we might need to prompt a little bit more. Or say you know it's okay to expand on that, tell us more about that. To prompt a little bit more. Or say you know it's okay to expand on that, tell us more about that, give us a little bit more detail. You know we are prepped and ready to do that. But meet us halfway in terms of the excitement, the enthusiasm, the passion as well. Don't don't be afraid of allowing that to come through, because that's a really lovely thing to see in a candidate and it's actually quite rare in all my time of recruiting and interviewing. It's quite rare for somebody to be fired up at the thought of this opportunity and ready, so it really comes across, you know pretty well, very powerfully.
Christina Kohl:Yeah, I think, because people are, they're nervous and they're trying to be professional. But yeah, I would agree that that's been my experience in recruiting, as what was your recruitment process like? So you had the application, was there a screening call, and then you know, like you mentioned, the panel. I'm curious how many was on the panel and who they were like, what roles, what was the process to get from application to offer?
Gabrielle Ferguson:so one thing in my experience of running these programs is the lag time between applying and then offer and then start is often more elongated than a normal process. So part of being prepared or looking at these programs and thinking about that is to be very aware of that. It's nothing personal, but it's a nature of the game, of the behind the scenes elements of putting these programs in place. The way that ours worked is we would have a what should we call it Like a launch, a launch event, sort of workshop that we would advertise on our you know, marketing and social media channels was advertised by our partner that we worked with. Social media channels was advertised by our partner that we worked with, and people would register their interest in attending the event and let us know which of the department areas they're most interested in. The purpose of that event was to come along, find out more about us as an organisation, find out about the programme and what's involved, the different components that we've discussed, the training, et cetera, learn the deadlines, the application process. There was a little slot run by our partner on how to write a good quality application and some interview tips and tricks straight off the bat, and then we introduced. The final sort of 30 minutes was a mini breakout room with the hiring manager for the role. So, for example, if you put as your department of interest I'm interested in engineering, you would go in a breakout room with all the other people interested in engineering and have a chance to hear from the hiring manager directly. So that is the person that would be your manager if you were successful. So that is the person that would be your manager if you were successful. So you get to meet them and you get to ask them questions, you know. So I think as a launch event it was really powerful and a great way to kind of kickstart the recruitment process.
Gabrielle Ferguson:Immediately following the event we would open for applications and we would open generally for a couple of weeks. We would be scanning them as they would come in and assessing. So you know, it's more of a ruling in than ruling out was our typical sort of approach. And then we would pick up any candidates if we needed to confirm things. And then we would pick up any candidates if we needed to confirm things. So, for example, if you know, in the cover letter they described a real interest for working in UX, but then they've applied to the data science program as an example, we would just confirm that that was what they intended to do, and also any sort of visa requirements and things like that. We would check all of those. We didn't have time in our process for screening calls with all the applicants because we would run generally around you know 100 applications for I don't know between four and eight roles. That's a lot of people, a lot of time, but we would interview as many as we physically could for those roles. Then we would move to interviews.
Gabrielle Ferguson:I think for the most part it was just a one stage interview and in terms of the panel, it would be with the hiring manager, a person from the returner program team. So often that was me, but of course there were others that we could lean on and very occasionally, depending on the role, if there was another member of the team where the hiring manager felt it was really important they were involved in the interviews and therefore the decision making, then they would be invited, maybe for a portion of the interview. Again, something that I would call out is we wanted it to really be as relaxed as possible. So the candidate with maybe two people, I think, logging on for, let's say it's your first interview in seven years and you're met with a panel of three people might be a little bit overwhelming or daunting. So we try to keep that really to a minimum. And, again, depending on the role and the department, generally it was a competency-based question and answer style interview. But if there were particular roles where it was important that they looked at a case study or something along those lines, then we would work with those managers to design that in a returner-friendly way. So, interviews completed, that would probably take a couple of weeks because you need people's availability and you're interviewing a number of people and then selection, so making your decisions but also confirming things like budget and headcount and making sure we're still where we started. So, again, a sort of behind the scenes snippet If you're on the candidate side, being aware roles that might have been available, let's say, in April, by the time we get to June, july.
Gabrielle Ferguson:Sometimes things change and that can be so sad, disappointing, unfortunate, you know, but especially in the times that we're in where companies might need to reassess or reallocate headcount, sometimes that meant oh, actually we thought we might have three roles here and now we only have one, for example, but it can also work in the other way of actually, you know, we thought maybe we can only take one person on, but actually we've now had a lever so we can actually take on two. So there can be that accounting for change, and that was not always easy. Running it from the internal side and generally how we manage that is, let's say, we finished interviews the 30th of June. We would commit to people and say, you know, I don't know, by the 10th of August you will hear from us, but please give us a few weeks.
Gabrielle Ferguson:It wasn't just about picking the person that we wanted. There was a lot of behind the scenes contracts et cetera as well. That goes on. So once all of that is completed and we've offered to the successful applicant and they've accepted and it's all very nice, then we would agree a general start date and try and start the entire cohort on the same day so that all the contracts were aligned. But also, if we were hoping people could join us in the office, we can do, you know, a coffee morning and let everybody meet each other, et cetera, et cetera, and we specifically timed that. So I would really recommend, if you are going to start in September, I would time it to start probably third week of September. So if people do have younger families and school age you know, children there's enough time to get that routine sorted rather than trying to manage first day back at school and starting a new job maybe on the same day or in the same week. That can be quite a lot for a family. So I definitely recommend that.
Christina Kohl:Okay, friends, that's it for this week's episode. We're going to go and take a break here and join us next week when we finish the conversation with Gabrielle and we'll focus on what to expect in a returnship after you've gotten the job. If you are ready to return to work and you've kind of been spinning your wheels, you feel like you're stuck, that imposter syndrome is sneaking in and you just don't even feel qualified and you're discouraged because you're sending out resumes and not even hearing anything back but rejections, not getting interviews. If that's you and you are ready and you're committed to going back to work, I offer one-on-one coaching and I would love to talk to you and see if my program is a good fit.
Christina Kohl:Reach out to me at Christina at hernextchapterscom and that's chapters with a plural, because we have a whole bunch of chapters ahead of us, right? So reach out to me there. Or, of course, you can always find me on LinkedIn and let's just connect for a 15-20 minute chat and see if I can help you. Thank you so much for listening today. I hope this episode hit home for you. And if it didn't well go easy on me, I'm still figuring this all out. And if it didn't well go easy on me. I'm still figuring this all out and, if you haven't already, be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn and say hello, so I can personally thank you for listening. Until next time, remember, your story is uniquely your own, and your next chapters are ready to begin.