The Equity Gap
A straight talk podcast focused on infusing a justice lens into the advancement of equity in the world with your host, Shahzia Noorally.
Shahzia Noorally is someone who stays grounded in the possibilities, and her purpose is rooted in influencing a more equitable and just world. She's a diversity and inclusion professional who centers equity deserving people while teaching those in positions of power to use their privilege to advance anti-racist and equitable workplace cultures. She's a proud first generation, Pakistani-Canadian Muslim, a dog mom to a senior rescue dog named Ollie and a late in life diagnosed ADHDer who lives, works and plays in traditional Treaty 7 territory in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
The Equity Gap
Redefining success for women of colour with Dr. Golnaz Golnaraghi, Founder Accelerate Her Future and Divity Group
In this episode, we're so excited to introduce you to the deeply inspiring, Dr. Golnaz Golnaraghi. Dr. Golnaraghi is an inclusion + belonging advocate, the Founder of Divity Group & Accelerate Her Future as well as a Founding Activator with SheEO and a TedX Speaker. She joins us in conversation about her life's work, her passions and the incredible impact she has made in advancing the conversation around the lived experiences of self-identifying women of colour and on the work she’s done to empower and ignite real change in this space.
You can connect with Dr. Golnaraghi through instagram @golehgolgol, Twitter @GolnazG and through https://golnazgolnaraghi.com. You can learn more about Accelerate Her Future through: https://accelerateherfuture.com and watch her inspiring and thought provoking TedX talk through: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgcQiLM5rSk
So welcome to season two, episode seven of the color gap contest. If you are joining us for the very first time, we want to extend a very warm welcome to our growing community of incredible women of color and of course our allies. And we really aim to create a safe space to talk about sometimes very uncomfortable topics on the lived experiences and realities of women of color, navigating spaces and experiences that aren't always designed for us. But our main aim with this platform is to always leave you inspired with a deep sense of empowerment and in knowing that anything is possible. And one of the ways we love to do that is by featuring trailblazers and incredible women who have created lives that are really worth talking about and those who use their lives for a bigger purpose. And if you know anything about us, you know that we love the power of social media to connect us with such incredible women. And so today, excited to dig deep into a conversation with someone that we connected with through the power of Instagram and who we, um, who has really quickly risen to the top of the list of women that we deeply admire in this space. She's an inclusion and belonging advocate, the founder of davidii group and accelerate her future and a founding activator of she EEO as well as the TEDx speaker. And I'm going to try really hard not to butcher her last name so apologies in advance if I do and you can correct me. So Dr. Gomez Gullah Norgay joins us today in conversation about her life's work, her passions, and the incredible impact that she's made in, in bouncing the conversation around the lived experiences of self, identifying women of color and on the work that she's done to empower and ignite real change around all in her life. So welcome Gomez. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Salvia and Susie, it's a, I loved how you mentioned that we met through Instagram. I have been following your work as well and through the work you've been doing on this podcast as well as your disrupt HR talk. So this is one of those connections that's deeply meaningful for me as well with what you're doing. Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Yeah. I always tell people that I truly believe in the power of, of those platforms when you use them for good and you actually take things offline. And so we're so excited to dig in and we'll start with a really easy question just to be able to give our audience a little bit of context on your incredible background. I mean, in doing research for this dialogue, we were just blown away. Um, Sidney and I both knew a lot about your background just in the conversations that we've had, um, and sort of creeping your Instagram and your LinkedIn profiles and your website and your Ted talk and all of these things. Um, but we can't do it any justice that I, I'm sure you can do a lot better job of speaking to the things that you've done. And so, um, tell us about yourself. What I guess defines you? What keeps you both busy, both and professionally,
Speaker 2:and, and how would you describe your work? That's a great question and actually it's a lot tougher to respond to then, um, than one would think. If you had asked me that question, um, even 20 years ago, 15 years ago, um, my response would've been so different than it is today. I find that I have gained more experience and I, as I connect, um, to myself, my value, uh, what's important to me? What does authenticity mean to me? That answer has really changed. And so I identify very simply, um, as a racialized immigrant woman, uh, my family immigrated to Canada from Iran back in the early eighties. Uh, as well as, as a mother, as a wife, as a working professional, as well as an advocate, um, of many things that really matter to me and to take you through, you know, in terms of my progression in my life and my career. When, um, we first moved here to Canada, we settled in BC abouts home for me and where my entire family lives. And I moved to Toronto back, uh, about 20 years ago through work, um, where I, I transferred here and, and saw it as an opportunity and have been here since. And so, um, when I first started my career, it was essentially, I have a background in business, my master's in business and I worked for a number of years with professional services firms within a marketing, um, capacity. And so if you had asked me this question way back, um, I would've seen myself as that person on corporate ladder and very focused and driven around, you know, the, the typical career. And it wasn't until, um, I became a new mom and I remember my sister was visiting from, um, for work. And we have this conversation around, um, you know, what does life look like? How do you identify, uh, yourself and what defines you? And my answer at that point was, well, it's really work. And now motherhood, it's new to me. I'm still figuring it out. And once in a while I go to the spa just to rest. But really it was all about accomplishment work and busy-ness. And how, when I reflected on that question really made me think, right. Um, is this really what matters to me in life and what does success really look like? And so when I went back to work after my maternity leave after about a year or so, um, I, I felt that my priorities had shifted and that, um, I wanted more flexibility with my family and also I wanted to look for what, um, what defined me, you know, beyond what I had known about point. And so through a lot of reflection and working with, um, someone, you know, to really explore a thinking partner to explore what, what the could be, I started teaching part time within the college system and loved it. I loved the classroom environment, being around teacher leaders and, and you know, kind of what it gave me. And so I decided to take the leap and I left my corporate job and I started teaching and, and became a full time professor within about two years of doing so. And that world opened up, uh, this curiosity and real appetite for learning within myself. And so I pursued my doctorate, um, during that time, uh, where really I began as part of my research and coursework to explore issues of, um, immigrant experiences, um, lived experiences when we look at the multiple overlapping aspects of identity, like gender, race, religion, et cetera and those kinds of things. And as I, as I was doing my research, I found that I was exploring my own identity as a result, right? And, um, you know, these, this idea of where was I trying to fit in versus what this philosophy, intensity and self agency and voice, um, what, what does all of that look like? And it was quite a transformative experience for me. And then fast forward to 2015, um, after I finished my doctorate, I started asking those big, juicy questions around what's, what's really important to me? What matters. Uh, I've, I've done all this amazing research. I've mentored so many students. Um, and I feel like there's more I want to do. And so kind of that third, um, transition for me was to, once again after 10, 11 years of teaching to do, do a bit of a shift and pursue more of a portfolio career, which we, you know, kinda hear a lot about that looked like, um, Gomez as a consultant where I, I do facilitation work as well as program and curriculum development. Oftentimes with our diversity and inclusion very much embedded in the work that I do. I'm also continuing to teach because that is important to me as well as pursuing, um, meaningful projects that we'll talk about like accelerate her future. That's amazing. Oh, a roundabout way of giving you kind of an overview of where I started and kind of where I'm at right now. And to me like my identity now is I am all the things I described plus, um, you know, an advocate and you know, my life feels like it has so much more depth. Um, now that I've sort of embraced all the different things that really mean a lot.
Speaker 1:Love that. And I think, um, you know, I can really, in a lot of ways around really making that shift to think about your life from a place of purpose instead of like you talked about accomplishments because I think a lot of, you know, ambitious women, we get caught in that trap, right, of having to get the next promotion, get to the next place, and um, it's difficult. And then becoming a mother and like we just had a conversation last week with a very dear friend of mine. Um, and Susie led that conversation from a place of being a mom and trying to navigate through raising a child that understand their backgrounds and their heritage and has a sense of pride around that, but also knowing that they're kind of walking this into this world that isn't necessarily there to always embrace all the things that are unique and different about them. So I love that. You touched on all of those, those pieces and I guess in your, in your life's work, what is it that you hope to kind of leave behind if you were, you know, at the point of retirement and I'm sure you're probably one of the most people that will probably not stop working and involved with do something in this space because of the passion that drives you. But what would you like to sort of leave behind a sort of a legacy? How would you like to see things changed in the next number of years?
Speaker 2:That's a, that's a great question. Um, that's, that's a big question and I wouldn't say first and foremost, um, I have come to realize that, uh, what really matters most are my relationships and my family and my friends in my core circle, number one, um, how, how I chose to engage and prioritize the people in my life that really matter. That's, that's one piece of legacy that I feel is so important. And secondly, um, this piece really in a funny way, came to life for me as I was, uh, engaging in my research and publications. When I was working on my doctorate and kind of post and writing about issues and topics that really meant something to me, um, that connected to my purpose. And also realizing that this work, um, with within, within an academic setting, if it's somewhat hidden and that only a very small percentage of the academic community actually reads that work. And so what does it mean then to take this work kind of into community at a grassroots level? Um, bring it to life in a way that's very real from research to practice, from research to actually having an impact, um, in, in my communities and in the lives of others. And so I feel that my legacy comes from my teaching, the experiences in the classroom and how I choose to engage and, and what I bring forward in terms of experience with my students and legacy is also being an advocate for that inclusion and belonging that you mentioned, which is very important to me in terms of, uh, supporting projects that really matters to me. Like she EEO, like, um, the work that I've done with big brothers, big sisters as well as accelerate her future and really putting my energy and time behind advancing that really not, or did I do those things? Very powerful. I love that. And I think that we can all learn as you go down your journey and to help enlighten us in terms of the experience that you've had in the past. Like to your point of, you know, being one focused in terms of corporate climbing, the corporate ladder and then changing to being purposeful, which is beautiful to hear. So thank you for sharing that. I'm curious about, um, a concept that I think everybody's familiar with, which is the concept of being an impostor or imposter syndrome. Um, I'm curious about how you navigate those, that feeling of not feeling enough or how you found the courage to step into something really uncomfortable or unfamiliar to you. My goodness. Uh, not so well at times. Um, and I don't know if you can relate for me, this idea of imposter syndrome really came through. So life, uh, when I was working on my doctorate, I come from an immigrant family where studying, you know, getting credentials, um, is really important. Excellence is really important. And I remember growing up, my mum and dad and I built this in my, in my thesis and my acknowledgement, they always said to me, as an immigrant woman, your education is key to your freedom and independence and the striving to be excellent all the time. So fast forward when I was working on my doctorate and when, you know, the first part was a number of course courses and coursework and that came really naturally to me because, you know, like it's assignments and get feedback and um, you know, milestones, then that was easy once I had to submit my dissertation proposal and put together a committee with my supervisor and they reviewed my, my proposal and I actually had to go to my competencies and defend the proposal to be, um, you know, to get the seal of approval, so to speak, tremendous. Then move into the dissertation phase. I, uh, got feedback from one of the external reviewers that at the time felt, um, really tough for me to receive. And it opened the door into feeling still like such an impostor. Um, and the imposter phenomenon was real to the point where I almost wanted to walk away from doing the, just like doing the defense for the proposal and engaging with the committee. I remember talking to my supervisor and saying, I don't think I'm ready. I really need to do more research to make sure that when I walk into that room that I know what I'm talking about. And, um, my supervisor encouraged me and at the end of the day said, you're ready and you need to do this. And I'm really happy that, uh, that he did. And so ultimately I went in and I defended my proposal. I answered the questions and I pass. But even after that for a year, I was literally frozen and I couldn't touch my dissertation. I couldn't engage with the research because of this feeling of, um, I'm not as smart and I'm not as competent. I really shouldn't be here despite a history of, uh, accolades or, you know, things that would tell you otherwise. And it was just a really, uh, difficult. It was, it was a tough, tough experience for me. And, and I questioned whether I really belonged there. Um, and you know, now that I look back, those thoughts that you know, I connected with were, um, you know, still out of place, but they felt so real at the time and they really were sparked by this, this piece of feedback. And so what I did is I actually decided to write about it and I wrote a book chapter on self-compassion and the doctoral journey where I delved into imposter syndrome and really navigating that within myself. And what I learned is that as a phenomenon, quite a number of a percentage of people go through that. I think it's something like 70% of people actually go through that. So it's more common than we think. But also it's most common among women and people of color. So imagine when you identify as a woman of color, what that kinda means, especially when we know that imposter syndrome. Um, and, and that experience is still connected to things like bullying and stereotypes and discrimination, uh, bias that may come our way. Things in the media and how we internalize those things at a subconscious level, which, which can lead to this imposter phenomena idea. And so gaining awareness of that as I kind of explored, um, my own experiences, it kind of blew me away in a sense that how often do we, you know, internalize these things, not really knowing it and how does it affect how we engage with, with life and with our experiences as opposed to now where I really try and it's not perfect and it's not meant to be, but I try to gain awareness and think about how do I confront and stop myself, um, or, or stop internalizing that bias. And what could that mean? I don't know if you both relate, but that's sort of where I am with it now is, um, is uh, strategies for trying to sort of steer away from some internalizing these things. Absolutely. We actually spoke about that and one of our previous episodes, you know, I think that's something that it's very, I think evident in our day to day lives, but we kind of ignore it. We push it down. So to your point, you know, constantly pushing to think, am I putting this in my way or am I creating blockers? Am I, you know, I think it's something that we have to, it's a habit that we have to get into a behavioral change, right. In order to get through that. And so thank you for sharing that because very sure I think some, I don't know how you have both a navigated working through it. And I find for me mindfulness has been a big piece to even recognize the thoughts that run through my head and knowing that the compassionate wake, I'm not those thoughts, right. That they don't define me. I think that in itself has been a big one. And I say this to my students as well. And it's something that I practice, um, as we email that comes to me from a student or um, you know, otherwise, um, that speaks to something they appreciated about me or what I did. I keep, um, I'm very mindful of my strengths, um, and sort of a strength based approach, um, to life. And so in those moments of vulnerability, I go back and I read those emails. I reflect on my strengths and I remind myself again that, um, these gremlins are these thoughts that run through through my mind, you know, aren't real. And also more importantly, um, I realized that, uh, this, this need for accomplishment for me anyway, was connected very much and can still be, uh, connected to seeking external validation from others. And so how do I really connect with my values and connect with that inner knowing that and self trust. That's also been really important. And it also connects to voice, right? To then, then voicing, um, my needs and um, other pieces in different spaces and places as well. I love that. Yeah. And I think you have to take stock of what you can control and what you can't and really understand that right, is that there are things, I don't know what's happening to you. They are happening around you and you can control some of that, right. In terms of how you perceive it, how you take it in and how you want her to realize that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I'm really curious about learning more about how you got inspired to create, accelerate her future. I want to learn about what made you go down this path. Where do you see it making the biggest impact for others? Oh man, this is my, this is my passion project. Um, how it came to be is from a combination of my own lived experiences, uh, workplace experiences, my research that I talked to earlier and also mentoring many women and many women of color over the last 10 years. And noticing that there are systemic barriers and that there really is a need for a program like this or spaces like this, if you will. And so that's really, you know, kind of where it started. And back in 2015 I started asking myself kind of a big purpose question, you know, that, that we talked earlier around like, what, what kind of a Mark do I want to leave and, and where do I want my work to focus? And that dancer was very much connected to women and girls and in particularly those that come from racialized communities or, or that identify as, as women of color more specifically. And so that's kind of how it came about. And, um, about a year ago, so it would've been summer of 2018 more than a year ago, I decided to host a design session and one of my former students, um, who was also, uh, a research assistant, um, a few years ago, decided to join me and collaborate with me on this. And we put a call out and it was amazing. 25 women showed up and we had about a three hour session with them where we dug deep into their experiences when it comes to career planning, to career exploration, workplace experiences. And we had the women in the room from all stages, uh, kind of of life. And clear, but predominantly those that were still in college and university or in their early careers. And what came out of that session really validated my heart that, um, we need a program like this. And so fast forward from that program, um, I started receiving calls so women came forward and said, we loved the session, we love what you're doing, we'd like to help and we'd like to volunteer and work with you. Let's bring this to life, enhance the[inaudible] started forming, which was so exciting, um, around how organic excels once I actually took the step to do this. And so we work together and we decided to launch the summit last year. Um, it was held in October, um, to again the, if we were to hold the summit, what students be interested in, recent graduates interested in applying, what, what kind of responsible we get from employers as well as colleges and universities. And again, kind of as the event came together and as we hosted this incredibly special day, um, there was just so much interest and traction and energy around it. Um, so that's sort of how it came to be an end. Where I see it going now is, um, I have so many ideas for where I, I like to see it go ultimately. Um, I'd like to kind of build the summit as a flagship kind of program into, um, something that has more longevity. So from the summit building into some mentorship, um, programs around, um, after the summit and other pieces as well as some training programs and, uh, bringing research and thought leadership into the mix in terms of what are the experiences of women of color from when they are in, in college and university to workplaces that could inform, um, how colleges and universities support them as well as recruiters and employers. So we have lots of ideas that we've generated as a team and we're looking at how do we now kind of roadmap and move forward in a way that that makes sense.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. Yeah. And accelerating her future was, I think how we initially came across, um, you Gomez and how we connected through social media was, um, seeing the work that was done there. And, and what was so important when we first came across it was you've created this platform that is really designed for women of color by women of color and that although the thing that rarely gets done these days, right. And exactly very important distinction for, for us even coming into this idea of creating this platform for the color gap was, you know, a lot of the content like you read about, I remember years ago when lean in came out and it was such a big deal in the business community and I never connected to the idea of a very privileged white woman navigating into her career asking for these things that she wanted and not really being able to connect. Because the way that you know, I was raised is very similar to what you were talking about where education was the key to getting to a better place and doing more than my parents were able to do. And the stuff that Sheryl Sandberg talked about, it just didn't quite resonate in the same way that I think something like this would, where if I was, you know, coming out of school or university, I wish these conversations were hard because I've assimilated. We all have for so long, right?
Speaker 2:If it's so I still relate to everything that you've said. Um, same for me. And um, so two things. One, I believe that despite how I described my identity and how I define myself, uh, there are aspects of me where I have privilege. I, um, have my doctorate, I have Canadian experience. I grew up here for the most part, even though I wasn't born here, I have some networks of my own that I've worked very hard social capital to develop over time. And I think part of the legacy with accelerator future for me was how can I put my privilege to use and, um, my passion for young women and create a space that we know we need. Um, again, as you said, designed by women of color or women of color. So that was really, really important for me. How many times have we walked into conferences or spaces where diversity inclusion, I'm beyond are touted, but I don't feel like it's truly embedded into the DNA of what's being done. And so it was really for me that what we stand for is truly embedded in how we, how we move forward and how we designed accelerator future right down to, um, I'm very, very committed to even in terms of service providers or contractors that we hire from our photographer to our caterer. We support women of color businesses and entrepreneurs and excellent work that they do. Right? And so absolutely. And, and I think the power, so walking into that room, we knew from the design session that I talked earlier, a few things came forward. I was blown away by the number of young women, and I shouldn't be because this was my own experience growing up, but the number of them that said, we don't really have mentors. Um, you know, maybe a few cited professors well beyond that, they really couldn't identify mentors in their life or access to influential people or networks within the business community. Some talk to how their parents as newcomers works three or four jobs. And so their parents don't have the ability to introduce them to their networks. They're, they're settling and, and really focused on looking after the family and supporting their family. And so the idea of, um, you know, these barriers became very clear and, um, so to accelerate her future, I think the mentorship and the connection that we very intentionally built into the summit as a starting point of connecting, um, our, our participants to influential women in the business community was very intentional for the reasons you described. Um, using lean in as an example, right. Um, I was on a panel at a conference recently, um, and our panel tackled young women and the future of work. And, um, so, you know, I brought in the lens of the experiences of women in particular women of color or diverse women and, and you know, what that can look like. And I had one participant stand up and say, you know, love what you said about the networks. And, um, she talks about how her daughter was struggling with, you know, figuring out a career path. And this individual was able to go into her contact list and introduce her daughter to three or four different women. Um, and ultimately those conversations led to a position and how her daughter was, you know, feeling very content, um, in the path that she chose. And my comment was, I think that's excellent and consider how many young women don't have access to, um, to a mother like you that may have those connections, hence the connection to lean in. Right? And so when we think about networking, there's bias and privilege embedded even in that construct. And so one of the barriers that we're trying to address is just that,
Speaker 1:Hmm, Oh, you're giving me chills. That's actually makes me a little emotional because the work is so important and I am so grateful that people are creating, like people, like you are trailblazing in this arena because it's a conversation that has needed to happen for such a long time. And for a lot of us, I think it, it doesn't become a reality until you start entering spaces like in corporate environments where you're not seeing yourself represented in leadership. Um, Susie and I talk about that all the time because we work for a really progressive organization and very well intentioned, um, almost 6,000 people though. And I can probably count on one hand the number of women of color that are in more senior positions than myself and then enthusiasm. And that is heartbreaking reality, right? And it might be a bit of a symptom of the fact that we do live in Alberta. Um, Susie and I are in the heart of oil country and it's a little bit different than maybe the last, um, diverse in areas like the greater Toronto area or even in Vancouver. But these are conversations that need to be happening. And that's why it just like you're just elevating the conversation for us. And we're so excited to be digging into this. And when we were being our sleuthing research sounds we came across, uh, a tweet probably from that same talk, but you gave us the future workforce summit, um, focusing on mentorship and sponsorship. And we think, you know, in our experiences we're both, Susie and I are both in HR and we know that both of those types of programs and platforms are incredibly meaningful, important tools for women to advance within corporate environments within organizations. And one of the things that somebody had tweeted about your talk was you noted that mindful approaches to mentorship and sponsorship are about not focusing on fixing and assimilating but about emboldening and enabling women to advance on their own terms. And we can't say enough about how much we love that statement. And I'd love to just hear your thoughts around how each of us, whether we're in positions of leadership or you know, direct big influence or not. Cause I think all of us have some sort of influence. Um, how can we encourage that kind of dialogue around the fact that authenticity is key and not about assimilating and fitting in, um, in our own work environments.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great question. Um, so as you were, you were talking about, um, the whole mentorship and sponsorship. Uh, I'd like to make a connection also to an earlier question that we explored around imposter syndrome. I think that, uh, when we don't see representation, um, we can't be what we can't see, so to, and this race came out from some of the, uh, participants in the conference. Um, and so I think that in itself can lead to feelings of imposter phenomenon, right? Um, so, so important and your point around not seeing representation in leadership, it may be perhaps more pronounced in Alberta, and I'm not familiar with that province, uh, specifically from a statistical or data perspective. But I can tell you that that is exactly why, uh, what accelerates us into action. So, uh, research that I came across talks to you how about 69 to 70% of women of color, um, in Canada, uh, have some sort of college or university credential, whether it's a diploma degree, etc. Yet, when we look at representation and leadership roles, um, they represent six point something percent of management positions. And yes, there's nuanced differences depending on, um, the sector that we're looking at. But overall, um, all we have to do is look at, for example, the financial post, you know, listings and whatnot, and their leadership and more words to be able to ascertain that, um, representation is not there, um, to, to the degree that it needs to be. And that's a reality. And we've been talking about diversity certainly. Um, you know, since, uh, it's been decades that we've been talking about the need for greater diversity and diverse workplaces. Now we're talking about inclusion and belonging. Um, but we're still talking about the business case for diversity and it's been decades. And so why are we not moving the dial? Right. And I think that, to your point, um, it really starts, for me anyway. Um, it starts with us as humans to humans, um, how we can, um, all of us as, as we kind of progressed out corporate ladders and, and, um, have more power, um, for us to use our privilege in a sense, to bring people up, right? To help people rise, to use our voice at the table. Um, to advocate for the, the issues that are important to us and in this case, advancement and mobility of, of women, of color. And so, um, the, the comment that I made on that panel has to do with, when I look in the media, when I read about, um, for example, immigrant identities, more often than not, what we hear is we come from a place of deficit as opposed to a place of strength and excellent, right? And so even the immigrant integration conversation has to do with, um, how can we, you know, about things like lack of Canadian experience, the language skills, um, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so it made me question, um, are we looking for people to fit in and are we trying to fix people so that they fit in or are we really embracing, um, these opportunities from a place of strength? And I think the same goes for, um, how we engage with women of color in our workplaces, regardless of, um, whether they're newcomers or second, third generation, regardless of those pieces. Um, are we really connecting to their lived experiences with empathy? And curiosity and trying to understand and are we carving out a space where we can, um, we can support and, um, create the conditions for them to thrive on their own term. Right? And so, um, I came across a piece of research that was done by, uh, the consulting or in Toronto where they looked at mentorship and sponsorship and how that mentorship and sponsorship can look very different for women and people of color, um, where, you know, in a sense, are we trying to fix them and make them fit into the existing culture or are we truly being advocates and sponsors and allies in the true sense of the word? Right? And so that's really where that comment came from. And I think we can all, uh, particularly, you know, women of color as allies to one another. I think there's space for that, but also, um, for you know, our Caucasian colleagues or those that that are in the majority, whatever that looks like. I think we all have a place in, in really trying to understand the, the, the different lived experiences and how can we really advocate and create spaces where people can thrive on their own terms and how, how do they appreciate their excellence and what they bring to the table as opposed to this deficit model. I'm curious what you both think in the roles that you have, um, and, and your own backgrounds. I think this is a really great question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's tough. And I mean, it, it is, it goes back to that idea that yeah, you can't be what you can't see. And I struggled with that a lot in my career because I didn't have a mom who, like when you talked about, didn't have those networks or that kind of influence. Right. And it's often difficult because you do find yourself assimilating so much. And we talked about, you talked about privilege and I say that all the time too. Like I'm born and raised in Canada. I don't have to deal with the barriers that my mother dealt with when she came here. But what I have done for so long is just tried to fit in. And you know, I think we're lucky in the sense that we work for a pretty progressive organization and um, at least have been given a lot of opportunity to just use my platform. And I've never been stopped from talking about things. I've very vocal on my experiences on social media. Um, and I've been very supported by a lot of senior level people and executives at the organization that we work with. It's just, it's just that it doesn't always go past that point of dialogue and I've just always sort of erred on the side of authenticity because that's the only way I know how to be. Um, but it is a balance, right? Because there is a part of things that you have to play the little bit of the game and you have to be a little political to be able to get recognized and noticed. But how do I do that by also just being myself. And I do that by embracing the things that, that I am. And I talk about being an introvert and being Pakistan, you being Muslim, all of these things that make up my identity and being first generation Canadian and that's how I approach it. I don't know Susie, if you have a a different perspective. Well I echo everything you say, right. But the other thing I wanted to mention is, you know, when you talk about a place of deficit, I think we can totally relate to all of that, especially when it comes to, um, how we perceive ourselves. And I think that's the important piece of how do we help others is to be bold and tell our stories of when you know, we, you know, we might, it might be imposter syndrome, it might just be a lack of awareness. But making sure that we all have something to add to every conversation, to every story to help others. And you know, I think I come across a lot of women of color who choose not to speak up because they feel like what do I have to offer? What, what have I done? What, you know, am I good enough? All those pieces, right? Because that's what we've been constantly taught and not intentionally, but that's just the, the verbiage we hear in our heads is to get past that and actually realize that every story has a huge impact for others because there are other people that are struggling, right? Like to our point where we're, we may be women of color but we are very privileged women of color because we were born and raised here. So therefore our experiences may be different. But there's a lot of real relate-ability to that, right? For others and those that, you know, are new immigrants to Canada or to wherever you are, you know, you have something to add value to somebody else who's going through the same experiences. So I think it's sharing the stories is really important to your point. Shazia keeping it authentic, but constantly having these stories talked about and, and I guess re re told is really important. It matters. Absolutely. I think that's so important. I w I would agree with you and I think voice has been something that, um, I have been navigating for myself. I even did a Ted talk titled some silence to voice embracing my hybrid identity. And, um, so at one point I was doing search around, um, Muslim women's identity here in Canada and I was born into a Muslim home.
Speaker 2:And, um, and in my Ted talk, I talk about how after being, uh, I was, I experienced bullying in grade seven, um, which in a funny way was harder for me to, uh, process. And the market left on me was in some ways even more significant than having to leave, uh, Iran, um, after the revolution and move here and settle here. It's amazing how some comments can really stick. And, um, the exclusion that I felt in great Southern had to do with being different and, um, also being Muslim. And it was the first time really where I stepped back realizing, Oh, I'm deaf. I hadn't realized that I was different up until that point. And I think in some ways how it influenced me was that I just really wanted to sit in to your point. Um, and I began to hide the aspects of me that were invisible, including being born into a Muslim home. And so when I started my doctorate and I started kind of researching Muslim women's identities and what not, that's where I started. Um, really interrogating and, and, and I say that in a positive way, really looking at my own assumptions around who I am and, uh, my own lived experiences and about point. I chose to prioritize my Muslim identity, which is why I did my cut talk. And now I verbalize it a lot more. Um, and so that's become a really big part of how I define myself. Right. Um, while as we talked about, you know, using my privilege, because my advocacy I don't feel would be advocacy if I didn't include newcomer women from Iran or, or anywhere, right? That, that may, um, uh, face certain barriers that I may not because as you said, I grew up here and my education is from Kagan institution and so on and so forth. So I agree with you. And the second piece is voice has been, um, a big part for me in terms of those critical choice moments, um, in, in different environments where perhaps the easy answer would be to remain silent and walk away. But something in, in, in my stomach tells me that no, that wasn't the right choice. You were not living your values by remaining silent. Um, and so what does it mean to use our voice and how we say it and how we chose, choose to show up in those critical choice moments with courage, but also in a way that builds bridges and also seeks to, um, address things that may not be. OK. Uh, so I'll give you one. Um, a while ago, uh, I, uh, sometime ago I was working on a consulting project and in a team meeting, um, the client, um, sort of sponsor looked around and smiled and such. Me Gomez, why is everything so difficult with you? And that really took me off guard because for people who know me, um, the word difficult typically doesn't come into the equation. I tend to be very collaborative, uh, very growth mindset oriented, um, transparent as much as possible in terms of communications but also building relationships based on trust really matters to me. And so in the meeting I smiled and there were other people around the table and I said, what may come across as difficult is that I really care about this project and I'm not afraid to speak up. And I left it at that. And so, uh, several weeks later when we were deeply thing the project, uh, after hearing about how amazing it was and how well it went and how[inaudible] and the team that was working with me delivered on, you know, fairly ambitious, um, kind of goals and outcomes and I felt really good about, um, how I have navigated that particular engagement. The opportunity came up for me to ask this individual where that comment came from. And that may not have been something I would've done 20 years ago, uh, 25 years ago, earlier in my career. Um, I was very thoughtful about how I would engage in this conversation because I also believe it's important to call people in unless it's flat out, you know, uh, an ism, right? That's very conscious of flat-out I, I choose to call people in. And so how I positioned it was, you know, you make this comment, um, awhile ago at a meeting, it, um, it made me uncomfortable for two reasons. One, uh, you thought me in as a consultant and a comment like that need in a group setting could jeopardize the project outcome and secondly, it could jeopardize my credibility with the team. And so I'd love to know what was behind the comment and I would hope that we have the kind of, um, relationship where you can tell me, right, I like, I'm interested in knowing if there is something that I need to think about. And ultimately where that conversation went was the individual apologized because they, they really didn't realize the impact that a comment like that could have. And their justification. And to this day, I don't know if you know, this individual came fully open fully about what that comment meant, but their, um, how they described it was that when they feel really comfortable with someone, they cross boundaries and that was really inappropriate. And so I chose it as a learning moment to say, you know, I've worked in male dominated industries, um, a lot and how, which the words that we choose have power and you know, if there is feedback to give, um, a private setting might be more appropriate and to be really mindful of, of, again, the words that we put out in, in different environments have a lot, a lot of power attached to it. Uh, and I'm just, you know, at this point in my career, I, I trust myself in my experience enough to have been able to address the comment in the meeting, um, in the best way possible. And it didn't jeopardize, um, the project in any way or my relationship with the team. But it's those kinds of things where I try to have as much courage to address, right. When, when comments or bias can come our way, how do we address it and do we choose to use voice to address it? Um, sometimes when women are tend to be outspoken, um, sometimes that's seen as being difficult. Right? Yes.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that cause I think that's really helpful, especially bringing people in. I love that term. Um, so thank you for positioning it that way. So it's like the perfect question to ask because it flows into just kind of what you were chatting about, but I'd love to hear your best piece of advice that you have for other women of color who are looking to make an authentic impact in their careers or their lives.
Speaker 2:That's such a broad question and I absolutely love it. I think first and foremost, I'll go with kind of the steps that I've taken. Um, I think oftentimes these kinds of things come from our own lived experiences too. Community is so important. Number one. Um, I have very intentionally connected to communities where I'm, where I'm connected to a kind of, you know, a range of women that I can talk to, that I can connect with. And it's amazing how when we share our stories, it's, you know, I thought that I was alone in this, but to be able to hear it, you know, I went through that too. And to be able to talk about these things and normalize them, uh, in terms of our lived experiences and um, you know, what goes on. But the, um, the bumps and the minds that we have to navigate in, in, in the workplaces are different kind of contexts to be able to talk to others, um, and safe spaces. So important, so community. And so connecting with community and connecting with others that, that, um, you can be in a relationship with. Secondly, to, um, connect with yourself. Right? So that self awareness piece is really important. Um, and, and I know the word self love is so overused in some ways, but it's really about that like connecting to who am I and what am I all about? Going back to the very first question you asked me of, of what defines you and really embracing, truly embracing our differences and the aspects of us that makes us unique and loving every bit of that, right? And really embracing all those, those pieces. And that's taken me quite some time to do and I'm still working through that. But to be able to embrace and show up as authentically as possible and choosing what that our authenticity needs in different spaces. Um, very empowering and liberating. Um, the other piece is claiming and really, um, embracing my own excellence and, um, while not trying to seek perfection, right? So asking for what I need going for the opportunities that I may not feel 100% qualified for, but, but going for them anyway. Um, soliciting support from mentors and coaches. So really surrounding myself with others who, um, can make connections, who can introduce me to others, who can support me in terms of the opportunities or, or goals that I have in life. Those have been very important. And, and as we rise and as we kind of actualize, um, what matters to us to bring others along, I think that piece is also incredibly important to mentor, give back and bring others along with us. Has that answer your question? I think I could go on with this question for, for days, but those are some of the bigger pieces that come to mind.
Speaker 1:Those are golden nuggets. Those are everything that everybody needs to take a little bit because it is a journey, right? To your point, you're not perfect and it never will be perfect. And that's the beauty of it, right? There's no definition of what it should look like or be like. And so I love that. Thank you for clarifying that and showing us that you also are in that space where you're not sure what it's going to look like or you're not sure that you're there yet, but you're working on it. And that's important to hear. I think especially for somebody that is so successful as yourself and has done so many incredible impactful things from your place of purpose and passion. So thank you for that.
Speaker 2:My pleasure and I have to say, can I, can I add one quick thing? Um, when I was listening to your podcasts, um, when you were talking about your disrupt HR experience, I could relate to that in so many ways with the work that I'm doing with accelerator feature. I think that speaks to, um,[inaudible] that, that courage, right? It's though incredibly powerful. And the one phrase that I think shot the, you made at the end where it was about if, if your work can have warm women of color acting in self agency, right? Having agency and having that confidence to be their own, um, their own advocates in a sense and impacting kind of their advancement and their flourishing in their careers. If that's what you'll work, seek to do, then you've lived a good life. And I'm paraphrasing, but that's what I took away from it. That's exactly why I'm doing accelerate her future. And that's why the project is so important to me for the same reason.
Speaker 1:Love it. And I always say, I think there's an element of you have to always meet the universe or whatever you want to call it, God, whatever that looks like for you have to meet halfway, right? And there's the one thing about putting the good intentions out there and having a sense of confidence and um, you know, working on those things within yourself to know that you're worth it. And it's another thing to actually go and start making moves and start putting yourself in positions where you're uncomfortable, where it can stretch sometimes where it requires a lot of courage. And that's what we loved about this conversation and about your body of work from us is that you are the epitome of someone who has really stepped into that in a really, really meaningful way. And we know that it's going to inspire so many people to make live and to start putting some of that work in place to start seeing differences in their lives and advocating for their, for what they really know in their heart. It's true and it's so meaningful for us that you took the time to connect with these two random strangers that you met on the internet from Alberta. And that is that you really gave us the space for that. And we'd love if you have any closing comments or anything you want to leave our audience list, it'll, we'll just open that up for you to, to say any last words if you like.
Speaker 2:Um, I just two against thanks. The two of you for the work that you're doing, um, with what Susie said around sharing stories, sharing our stories, we need to do more of that. And with your listeners, I would once again, final word is to encourage them to connect to communities like this, uh, because we need communities like this. Um, and, and I find that they can be so self-empowering. Um, so that's my final word and I want to thank you both for the work that you're doing.
Speaker 1:Thank you. And it's just wonderful. I think you're right. When you start stepping into this kind of space, you start to meet other very likeminded women and individuals that will inspire you to see what else is possible. And so that's what you were able to do for us today. And, um, for our audience, we'll make sure to share all of Gomez's, um, social media and accelerate her future and all of the amazing work that she's doing, um, through our platforms. When we promote, if you're listening, you're probably connecting with us through one of those and you'll find all of her details, um, there. And, um, there's just so grateful for being able to dig into this conversation and excited to see, uh, where we can go with, with all of the work and what we're going to be able to do to inspire some folks to, to step out into what's uncomfortable and unknown. So thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
