Therapeutic Discipline- More Significant Behaviors

Today we dive into the crucial concept of individualized care  when it comes to more serious incidents with discipline. Our discussion highlights the importance of treating each person as a unique individual, tailoring responses to their specific needs rather than applying one-size-fits-all approaches. We explore how fairness isn't about treating everyone the same but about addressing what each person needs at the moment, whether it's a child or an adult. We also delve into the delicate balance between supervision and nurture, emphasizing the significance of maintaining relationships and offering support even during challenging times.

Furthermore, we examine disciplinary measures such as grounding and logical consequences, focusing on their effectiveness when they are reasonable, related, and respectful. The discussion underscores the pitfalls of using punishments that create negative associations and hinder long-term growth. Ultimately, we confront the challenge of staying connected with children even during their most difficult moments, emphasizing the importance of being a consistent, nurturing presence.

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Transcript

Effective Discipline Through Individualized Care

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to Brain-Based Parenting, the Boys Ranch podcast for families. We all know how hard being a parent is, and sometimes it feels like there are no good answers to the difficult questions families have when their kids are struggling. Our goal each week will be to try and answer some of those tough questions, utilizing the knowledge, experience and professional training Cal Farley's Boys Ranch has to offer. Now here is your host, Cal Farley's Staff Development Coordinator, Joshua Sprock.

Speaker 2 0:33

Hello there and welcome and thank you for joining us as we talk about brain-based parenting. Today, we're going to continue talking about discipline. Specifically, we're going to talk about how to help with more serious behaviors. To do that, I'm once again joined by michelle myketter hello. Chloe hewitt hi. And suzanne wright hello. So today we're going to start off with our question of the day, and since our topic today is serious behavior and discipline, I'm wondering what is something that you take really seriously but your spouse does not?

Speaker 3 0:59

so I have a dumb one. I take recycling very seriously, even though I've read the statistics about how it's not really helpful and useful. It makes me feel better, like I'm doing something. My husband does not take recycling seriously at all, but instead of just not recycling he just kind of halfway recycles. Well, he'll throw something in there that I have to clean up to recycle. So I'd rather he just not do it, or do it, but not kind of in between it, just to make me mad.

Speaker 4 1:26

Mine, I guess, would be working out, because he is in it sometimes, not in it sometimes, and I have to do it every day or do a form of it, and so it just is a little like I just want you to be committed or just be not half in, half out, just like me.

Speaker 5 1:36

See.

Speaker 3 1:36

Either do it or don't.

Speaker 5 1:38

I think that probably I take everything a little too seriously and I'm married to somebody who's very laid back, so I take everything seriously. He takes not very many things seriously, which is probably how our children have survived. It's a really good balance between the two of us, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:57

All right. When it comes to how we deal with more serious behavior, one of the concepts that we like to emphasize is individualized care. So what does individualized care mean, and how is it relevant to discipline?

Speaker 3 2:08

And again I think about individualized care for kids, but then also for individuals that we work with. I just think it means that you have to look at each person as their own individual, instead of comparing them to other people or to yourself as to what they need at that time, what they do well, what they need help with, and that everybody's different, and so you can't expect that the way you approach one person is going to work for somebody else.

Speaker 4 2:29

Yeah, I mean, I agree it's all about what need isn't being met, and so I talked about that a little bit last time, about how I put my kids down separately and different and have a different routine for each of them, because they both need something different at night and I think it's the same way when it comes to their discipline, that they each need something different from me, so tailoring it to what need they need met Do you ever have kids, or even adults, that struggle with this concept because they feel that this isn't fair, and if so, how do you respond to that?

Speaker 3 2:53

I think this is one of the biggest issues is that we want. Sometimes, when we think about fairness, we think that means everybody gets the same thing, and often that leads us to being quite unfair, and so we talk a lot about how, if you go to a medical clinic and they say we're going to treat everybody fairly and act like everyone has the flu, so you all get the same treatment, you don't feel like that's fair treatment. You want to be treated for what you need help with, and this is the same kind of thing. Trying to dole out these equitable responses is not really fairness, and a lot of times it's just easier for the person but not necessarily better for the person receiving it.

Speaker 5 3:31

I think that every child is different and so a response that might be impactful to one child might not be helpful to another child at all. Right, like you may have one child that you can just give that mommy look to and they respond and change their behavior, and for another child it may take a different type of intervention. So not only do they all have different backgrounds and that's true even if they grow up in the same family, right that they have different experiences, their personalities are different and they're going to respond differently to discipline.

Speaker 4 3:57

Yeah, and I think that you know we talked about that a minute ago that it's really difficult because in our mind we want to just know the answer. So it'd be easier if we did just have a cookie cut. Hey, this is the consequence, or this is the answer, but that's not always what's best for each individual. But our brain wants it to be super easy and just hey, he did shoplifting, so this is his consequence, right? But sometimes that's not what is needed, or not what's driving it, or what. They all don't have the same background either.

Speaker 2 4:21

So, as behavior becomes more serious, we may need to increase our supervision and structure, but at the same time, we also need to increase our nurture. Why is it important to do these two things?

Speaker 3 4:30

hand in hand, I think this is so interesting because there's something in us that makes us, when someone's in trouble or somebody did something wrong, we feel like we have to withdraw our affection or approval, and so we feel like we have to be stricter, add more structure to someone, but not let them know we still care about them. So it's such a weird kind of idea, and so really, what we've been talking about this whole time is that you know, when someone is struggling, they need to be brought in closer and made aware that the relationship is still intact and that they're important and that kind of thing. And I often think we do the opposite when we use discipline.

Speaker 5 5:03

Josh, I don't know if you've used this example in any of the other podcasts, but I know that during training you talk about the piggy bank and that we make deposits in our child's piggy bank whenever we have positive. We make deposits in our child's piggy bank whenever we have positive, loving, nurturing interactions with that child, and for a child who has healthy relationships, their piggy bank is pretty full, and so that when a parent applies discipline, they're making a withdrawal from that piggy bank, but the child can manage that. It doesn't mean their piggy bank is empty, and so there's a balance.

Parenting Through Challenging Behaviors and Grounding

Speaker 2 5:37

There's a give and a take. Yeah, I think that's so important because a lot of kids don't have any money in their piggy bank and if you try and withdraw then you become overdrawn and that just doesn't go very well for anyone.

Speaker 5 5:45

Yeah, and then we see some of the worst behaviors right, and it seems even worse than what it was before Right when their piggy bank is empty, or when we've had to bust the piggy bank to find that there's nothing in there, then we are going to see more negative behavior rather than improved behavior. So withdrawing love or nurturing or care actually makes it worse rather than better.

Speaker 4 6:07

Yeah Well, I think too so a lot of times. You know we talked about it with the time in that you need to draw them in closer and come side by side with them or bring them into it so that they feel that nurture piece, but also just recognizing within yourself when you're at a place that you can do that, because sometimes with especially with more severe behaviors, you kind of have to take a step back and realize, okay, am I in a place where I can do it and then provide that nurture because they're going to need it, if not more than they would even with the less significant behavior.

Speaker 3 6:31

Yeah, and I think that's the hardest part is because it is within us, like when we're hurt to hurt someone else, and so it is that awareness one. And then to the ability to step back out of that before you make your choices or have the conversation or apply any kind of discipline, and so being able to say, like we talked about before, I need a little bit of time before I come back to this and make some decisions so that hopefully you're calmer and in a better place, that you can show some care and concern and not just give them the punishment.

Speaker 4 6:56

Right, and no shame in that, like we've all been there, we've all had to take a timeout. We've all had to say, hey, we're not in a place that we can do that right now.

Speaker 5 7:02

Michelle, I think that's a really important point because it's easy as a parent to take it personally, so to take a child's misbehavior as proof that we're not a good parent or that we made a mistake, or sometimes we we become concerned that it's a negative reflection on us, and rarely is it any of those things. Yeah right, it's a child who has not developed the ability to regulate yet, or because their thinking brain isn't fully developed, they make an impulsive or emotional choice and it really is not towards us at all. But wow, as a parent sometimes we really feel like it is.

Speaker 3 7:42

Yeah, and then we tend to horribilize right, so they make this one mistake, and then we imagine, 15 years out, they're going to make these exact same mistakes and we're going to wind up if that happens and so being able to catch ourselves when we're kind of tripping over that horribleizing.

Speaker 2 7:55

So last week, when we were talking about how to deal with less significant behaviors, we mentioned grounding and how it might fit better with what to do with more serious behavior. So how would you define grounding, and for what behaviors would you say grounding is beneficial or appropriate?

Teaching Effective Discipline and Reconciliation

Speaker 3 8:08

You know, I think we talked about for more significant behaviors because we felt, like most things, once everybody was regulated you could have a discussion and talk some things out. But this is mainly, you know, concern about if you're concerned about a child hurting themselves or hurting someone else or not being able to, really just not being able to be successful in a situation. So if you're concerned, if you take them to a party or to an outing, that they are just not in a place they're going to be successful, it's probably not a good idea to go, and you know see how that winds up. But so that grounding would be more about bringing in closer and spending time on the relationship together instead of actually, you know, isolating the child altogether. It may not be the exact activities they wanted or, with you know, the exact friend group they wanted, but that you're bringing them into, the relationship is maintained or improved in doing things with them so that you're in proximity and you're having those conversations.

Speaker 2 8:53

So you wouldn't say it'd be a wise move to just have someone locked in their room for weeks, being grounded like some of the more traditional things you see on TV sometimes.

Speaker 3 9:02

Yeah, you know, I think we've all seen those really good examples of what happens when you're upset and you're left alone and how unproductive that is towards you know a goal of making things better. That you know any of us when we're struggling to be left alone with our own thoughts and our own feelings is not super helpful to any of us.

Speaker 4 9:19

And we talked some a little bit last time about how giving that, why which I know is the adult you don't always have to give, but if you can give them the explanation of, hey, this is why you're not going to go to the party, you're going to stay with me and we're going to go grocery shopping or we're going to go have lunch. But giving them that explanation and then also just giving them the right to earn it back, I think is also really important, so that they don't just see that it's a never ending consequence, because I think our children also get in that tunnel vision. They feel like they can't get out of it and then they feel like they are hopelessness, and so we talked about that never letting them get down to nothing either.

Speaker 5 9:50

I think a lot of times parents throw out this lengthy time You're grounded for a month or you're grounded for six weeks and then they start to realize maybe it was an overreaction or maybe it was an emotional decision and then they release the grounding early and sometimes that sends a wrong message when in the beginning, if they had been able to think that through and be calm and regulated before they made a decision about what the right consequence was, then it would have had a better outcome.

Speaker 3 10:19

Yeah, but I do think even when we make mistakes like that, it's more powerful to admit we made that mistake and I wish I would have calmed down before I, you know, took it out on you or whatever, and instill that there's more positive that comes out of that than them feeling that you don't know how to be a parent. You know that's what we think. Well, if I change my mind, they're gonna think I don't know what I'm doing right and when you can just be honest about. You don't know what you're doing, and at that time you, you know, should have taken a step back and calm down so you can make a good decision about what you were doing.

Speaker 2 10:45

So here at boys ranch, we typically cap grounding to three days unless the team working with the child, along with an administrator approval, feel like there's a justification for grounding to be longer. Tell our listeners why, for the most part, we try and stick to short-term grounding. Well, I mean, I feel like it's.

Speaker 3 10:59

all the stuff that we've been talking about is that you know, one, we don't want to be in an emotional place that we ground a kid for two months or whatever. And then you know you also don't want a kid to feel like there's nothing left to lose, like they. There's no reason to even try and most of the time we're already disappointed in ourselves and you feel like there's nothing. You know it doesn't matter, I'm always going to keep messing up and I'll never get out of this.

Speaker 4 11:22

So you don't ever want to go dig that hole that deep. Yeah, I think it also allows. Yeah, and it allows having the team, which we talked about that a little bit last time, like staffing it with your spouse or staffing it with a friend, so that way you have other people, because sometimes we aren't ready to hear and we have a tunnel vision with it, and so you can kind of step back and hear from other people, which is why I love the team approach. Everybody gives their input and they're all thinking differently and have a different thought, and so it really allows us all to come together and say, hey, is this really what's best? Because there might be stuff I haven't thought about.

Speaker 2 11:47

So many times when a serious incident happens, trust is broken. Other people get hurt physically or emotionally, or their belongings are damaged. Why is it important that restitution and reconciliation need to be addressed as part of discipline?

Speaker 3 11:59

I think this goes back to us talking about discipline being a way of teaching, and what do you want the child to learn from that experience? And so restitution is a big piece of that right we talk about. We're all going to make mistakes and we're just going to have to learn how to fix those mistakes, fix something we've broken. And part of that reconciliation is looking at the relationship. So we've caused a rupture in the relationship and then what do we do to make the relationship better? And always any of these infractions it goes back to how do you repair that relationship, because that's the most important piece out of all of it, I think that we're quick to point out restitution.

Speaker 5 12:33

Restitution is the easy part. If you damage this, it's worth X amount of money. You can repay that amount of money. But, as you mentioned, the bigger piece is reconciling the relationship between the child and whoever else was involved a peer or a teacher or a parent and that also requires that the adult involved be willing to reconcile too, and children learn what we model for them, and so it's so important that we are willing and able to have that conversation with a child that leads to a reconciliation of the relationship. That's the most important concept out of all of this.

Speaker 2 13:11

So what are some ways that kids can make things right with peers and adults who have hurt them, or how do we help kids reestablish trust?

Speaker 4 13:17

A lot of times. We talked about that before that we really like put it back on them and ask them like, how do you think you can make it right? Because we all know that everybody's a little different. You know, my husband tends to be very introverted, so the way that he's going to make it right it's going to look very different than the way I'm going to make it right, cause I don't mind tough conversations and sitting down that one-on-one and I have to have eye contact because that's my way.

Speaker 4 13:36

That way he wasn't raised to look at people in the eye. It makes him uncomfortable and so and he might need a day or two to make it right, right, and so respecting each other's boundaries and you know we try to teach the kids it can be, it can be a note, it can be cookies, it can be just coming by, going on a walk and doing it while you're regulating. I want to happen is a child come and apologize and the staff isn't in a place that can receive that, and then it just makes it harder for them to reconcile next time, right, and so it's very important on all those aspects with the child.

Speaker 3 14:10

And so I was trying to think about if the adult isn't ready and the kid is, what do we do to help bring that process along? And so I was thinking, even for myself I would have to have, you know, I'd have to have somebody help me get me there if I was unable to do it on my own. And I think the biggest piece is having the intention of wanting to be right, like wanting to be open to it even if you don't feel like you are in the moment, but wanting to get to the place, that you're open to it.

Speaker 4 14:35

And I think we have to have help with that sometimes. Do you think honesty can make that easier if you say, hey, I want to regain trust, I'm just not there yet. If they're honest when the child comes, if that would make that conversation easier.

Speaker 3 14:45

I think so Because I think anytime we don't have the information. So if somebody just puts us off or ignores us or avoids us or whatever, then we make up all kinds of stories about what it is, and it's usually so much worse than what's actually going on. So I think even just saying that we want to make repair we just aren't in a place to do it yet is better than just kind of letting them come up with why they think we're not talking to them or why we haven't resolved it yet.

Speaker 5 15:08

Well, we've talked about this before, but I think as the adult, we have to remember to be curious about what motivated that behavior on the part of the child. What was their goal? And frequently their goal wasn't to hurt us or to harm their relationship. They just don't have the ability to see that yet, and so they've done something wrong. Maybe we took it personally, maybe it wasn't really about us, but you know, we have to be curious and set our own personal feelings aside to really see what was motivating the child, what was their goal in that, and very often, if we gain that insight, it's much easier for us to be willing to reconcile.

Speaker 3 15:42

Yeah, and then to be curious, if we're not able to get to that point, what's going on with us? Because it's probably attached to something bigger than what happened with the kids, right?

Speaker 2 15:49

All right. Next, I want to talk about logical consequences. We say the elements of a logical consequence is that they are reasonable, related and respectful. Could you break down these three R's for us?

Effective Discipline Strategies for Youth

Speaker 3 15:59

I think reasonable is a good one. So because a lot of times when we're trying to be fair or whatever, we have made some bad decisions about what we think is reasonable, trying to make it equal or whatever. And I think all of these things reasonable, related and respectful, that it's reasonable to ask for someone to be able to do it, and then it's related to what was the infraction, instead of something totally unrelated. Like you know, we talked before about menial tasks moving rocks or digging a hole or something. It's totally unrelated to making repair or restitution. And then respectful, I think is huge. I think anytime we want something to be healthy and useful and move us in the right direction, it has to be respectful and something that we'd be willing to do ourselves. And so anytime any of three of those things are out of alignment, I think is not going to get you where you want to go.

Speaker 2 16:44

I always think about, like, if a kid is not waking up on time in the morning, a reasonable, related and respectful consequence could be an early bedtime. But if a kid is like cussing me out, an early bedtime wouldn't be appropriate because it's not related, right, right. So sometimes we get so stuck in those like early bedtimes or give me your phone, that's the consequence for everything. But it really doesn't fit those three R's.

Speaker 3 17:04

Yeah, and it really isn't looking at what's actually causing the issue, right.

Speaker 2 17:08

So some consequences that on the surface meet the criteria of the three R's, but because they create negative associations we advise against them. Could you explain that?

Speaker 3 17:16

So the one I talk about all the time is community service we used about all the time is community service, so we used to assign a lot of community service. So as a punishment, you had to contribute to your community, which I think is a terrible idea. If we really want people to feel like community service is important, then we shouldn't make it a punishment. And then other things like what we've done in the past with you know different sports related things where your punishment is running, and then we wonder why kids don't want to run, and so those kinds of things have negative associations being made because we're using them as a punishment.

Speaker 2 17:45

Yeah, I remember when I first started here. A lot of times kids would get caught smoking and their consequence would be they'd have to donate $25 to the American Heart Association, which sounds like a great thing you want them to do. But then later in life someone asks them if they want to donate money to a charitable cause.

Speaker 1 18:00

They'll be like well, I'm not in trouble.

Speaker 3 18:02

Why would I punish myself like that?

Speaker 2 18:05

So it's well-intentioned, but the long-term aspect of it, I think, can be more harmful. So we'd like to see those things as privileges, and things you ought to do, not things you have to do because you're in trouble. Does that sound right? Yeah, oftentimes, when kids are really struggling, their behaviors are going to feel like they're trying to push us away and, honestly, sometimes when kids are really acting out, we as adults want to push them away too. Why is it important that we keep kids close, even when they're acting at their worst?

Speaker 3 18:30

This is another hard one, because anytime, you know, being in a relationship with someone makes us feel bad about ourselves, we want to stay away from that and not, you know, not stick with it. And this again is that bigger piece of being the adult and understanding that when someone's struggling, they're just not able to be their best self or function as highly as we want them to, and so they need our help. And then if we, if we are able to apply that to ourselves about times that we've struggled in our life and what we really needed, we needed somebody to stick it out with us and to come alongside us and to help us through it, instead of isolating us or pushing us farther away.

Speaker 4 19:01

Yeah, and I think the important part too is here if you do need a break, because it is hard to bring them in, then use your resources. There's going to be other adults they're close to, so allow them to be the ones to tag in, because they're going to need as many connections that they are close to be brought in. It is exhausting, but they are usually when they're acting out and they need you. It's because they need you more. And so just remembering that.

Speaker 3 19:21

Yeah, regardless of what they say.

Speaker 4 19:22

Yes.

Speaker 5 19:23

Yeah, I just heard a short video and they they did a study where they said children act worse in the presence of their mothers than with any other person.

Speaker 5 19:34

And they they measured the children's behavior in a room with, with the people conducting the study, and then how the child responded the moment the mother walked in, and they determined that the behavior was 800% worse when the mother walked in. And so we have all felt that way, right, and grandparents or other people. Oh well, this child was a doll for me and I didn't see any problems, right. But they did conclude that that's because the child felt safest with the mother, right, and so when that mom walked in they could immediately let down their guard and exhibit the stress that they were under. And so when the kids are struggling, who do they need? They need that person that they feel the safest with. They need somebody who's going to. And the researcher said they know that they're safest with the mother. And so sometimes, boy, it's hard to be that mother and know how safe you're helping your child feel. But I think it's critical.

Brain Based Parenting Podcast Appreciation

Speaker 4 20:30

Yeah, I just saw that study and sent it to my sister because she has a newborn and I was like get ready, but I do think that's so true. I mean, and kind of like what you said, modeling even that, like hey, I need to take a moment to myself. Them hearing you use those phrases or them hearing you apologize is what's going to get them to apologize and what's going to get them to understand. Hey, it's okay to verbalize when I need a break because my mom can do it. All of those things.

Speaker 2 20:52

Yeah, no-transcript the end of every podcast. We've got to share our frontal lobes with the kids. Just make sure you get them back, right.

Speaker 3 21:13

Yeah, that's right. That's the hard part.

Speaker 2 21:16

Speaking of which, I want to thank Michelle, Suzanne and Chloe for all the insight you provided today, and I want to seriously thank all of you out there in podcast land for hanging out with us. So remember, you might have to loan out your frontal lobes today. Just make sure you remember to get them back.

Speaker 1 21:30

Thank you for listening to Brain Based Parenting. We hope you enjoyed this show. If you would like more information about Cal Farley's Boys Ranch, are interested in employment, would like information about placing your child, or would like to help us help children by donating to our mission, please visit calfarleyorg. You can find us on all social media platforms by searching for Cal Farley's. Thank you for spending your time with us and have a blessed day.