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Start Here to Find Out - What's Blocking You From Making Your First $100k?
Connect with Me
IG: @matthewpaetz
Start Here to Find Out - What's Blocking You From Making Your First $100k?
In this episode, I get to sit down with the fun and amazing Marissa Sturtz to discuss our personal experiences with psychedelic medicines. We get into the importance of respecting the power of these medicines and why you need to work with an experienced facilitator. This conversation is for anyone who wants to heal from deep trauma and learn how to use their voice for good. What you're going to learn is the importance of accepting and taking responsibility for your life and how your depression may actually be denied expression and, lastly, the power of storytelling. Lastly, the power of storytelling. This is so important because there's not enough people talking about the power psychedelics have on healthy self-discovery and how to use these medicines responsibly so that you can begin to live with a deeper sense of fulfillment.
Speaker 1:But one I'm super excited Uh, I have so many things I want to pick your brain about, uh, since we last spoke, because I've had many, many, many uh experiences now, uh, whereas when we first met, I had a whopping zero. Um, and before we jump into that, I just want to kind of give you a couple of heads up here. So one this is really just a conversation we're recording. There is no official framework thing. I don't give a fuck, it's just us geeking out on topics that we enjoy. We just happen to be recording it. And then, uh, the other thing is if, at any time, you notice there's a lag, or your side freezes or mine does, or whatever may happen, um, I don't know if you've ever used Riverside for anything, but the thing that's amazing about this.
Speaker 2:Other people have recorded me, but I've never actually used it myself.
Speaker 1:Oh, amazing. Well, if you ever need to, I strongly recommend it, for no other reason than this one. So this is recording each of our feeds separately. So if it lags or freezes, it's actually recording clean because it's using both. So, yeah, I learned that the hard way. So the very first time this, like you know, I was using this, it froze super hard for a while and I was like we are halfway through the conversation I was like fuck, like is that there? Is that gone? I'm just going to act like it didn't happen. You know this whole thing, but luckily it's. We had it all.
Speaker 1:So if it happens, you know, don't stress Um, and if it does, I won't. So um, yeah, but with that being said, first off, marisa, what is up, my friend? Hello Hi, matthew, hello, hello, it has it's been a couple of years. Yeah, it's been probably well over three years because it was pre-pandemic. Yeah, but I'm super excited.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. No, it was just like I'm trying to remember. The last time we saw each other, it was a coffee shop, I think in, like I would say, 2018, maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, easily, easily, I would say 2018, maybe, yeah, easily, easily. And, like I said, I was a pup in this world that we might dive into a little bit today at that time. But before we just jump into it, I would love just to hear personally quick little cliff notes on what's going on in your world and what you're up to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh boy, I've been.
Speaker 2:Currently I'm coming at you from Costa Rica, where I've had the good fortune I was traveling when COVID hit and I had been here long enough to sort of get a sense of what was going on.
Speaker 2:And also I was going to move to Oakland and I'm like, well, I could go live in a box while the world shuts down or I could stay here in this jungle, and so I stayed here and it has been one of the most amazing, rewarding and like blessed decisions I've ever made in my life. And um, and this chapter is slowly beginning to wind itself down, just because it's a real moving and shaking time in life right now and it feels like it's time to build, and I'm really glad I get to spend a few years slowing down and kind of catching up and doing a lot of healing work, sitting a lot with ayahuasca and now projects are stirring. So I mean I'm working on the global psychedelic society, which is a big thing. Maybe we break them up, but I'm working on that. I'm doing a lot of work with storytelling and helping people tell their personal stories as teachers, facilitators, entrepreneurs, creatives, and I am bringing the sphinxes from the never ending story to Burning man. So that's a big.
Speaker 2:Thing to unpack, but bringing a big art project um stories at the core of it. I guess I'm also, like, uh, working on a documentary about my own life's journeys and writing a play, so technically I think that's. That's five projects right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was gonna say. Who said hanging out in the woods is boring?
Speaker 2:Oh my God, yeah, I have to actually make effort to well, you know, it's a lot of. It's a lot of what I call trolling around on your computer.
Speaker 1:I'm like yeah yeah, A lot of the computer time but it's it's also, you know, it's like valuable foundation building that needs to happen. So I'm glad to be doing it. I love this. Well, I have so many more questions, but I'll give you a little uh kind of update.
Speaker 1:Since we last saw each other, um, at that time I had never experienced any um medicine journeys. So no healing, you know, journeys, opportunities or anything at that point. But I was very, very I knew I was called to it, I just didn't know when or how, like for me it was very much it would be a knowing versus. I need to go out and like force the experience.
Speaker 1:But since I've worked now with many different medicines, um and what, I can say without question and this is a conversation that I absolutely have almost grown obsessed with because of the impact it's had on me, um, but my very first journey I worked with the very first two journeys I worked with MDMA, both times Um, and the first one, uh, I say, saved my life, and then the second one changed my life.
Speaker 1:And then I've gone on to work with many other medicines um, psilocybin, lsd, dmt, um, uh, ayahuasca, but it was more of a, a blend, uh, the, the shaman I was working with Um, and between that and psilocybin I guess it was like a much milder dose and like a full ayah trip Um. But I've, I've been very, very, very fortunate in my journeys and experiences and it's something that, uh, I now say and believe to my core that if I could give one gift to the entire world, it would be at least one journey in the appropriate setting and the appropriate support, because, it hands down, was the intersection of my life, where everything began to to change for the positive.
Speaker 2:Right on. Glad to hear that. Was it hard for you to take that first step?
Speaker 1:No, I, like I said it's something that I had known I would eventually do for quite a while prior to the experience. But, you know, coming from you know, I was very much in a party scene at that time. I'm very fortunate to say that in all of the medicines that uh, I have uh experienced, since I never experienced any of them in a party setting prior, so I didn't have any idea what the experience would be like. I had no um, you know, expectation going into it, um, it was purely to be with whatever came through Um. So I'm super grateful that I did not have any of those experiences in a um experiences in a in a non-healing environment prior to. But no, there was really no fear for me. There was a lot of excitement and the, the moment that the, so the very first journey that I had.
Speaker 1:It came almost immediately after one of my most shameful moments. It was one of the worst fights that uh, alison, my fiance, uh, and I had had in our relationship. And you know, at the time I was really um struggling with managing my anger, um, and when I would get angry it wasn't um, you know, it wasn't physical, but I would get right up to the point and I was very verbal, it was very loud. It would be those types of experiences and I also was in the process of really kicking a cocaine habit at the time, right, I had fallen into that world for several years and, um, you know, naturally I was spiraling in the wrong direction and you know a lot of the, the anger and the fights and stuff would come by way of, um, you know me being on a bender, or you know being being on the crash or whatever it was, from the night before and, um, you know, this particular morning that I was referring to, or the evening, rather, allison and I got in this huge fight, uh, for what? I don't even recall, um, but the moment that everything, like, I knew I had to do something drastic because I was already in therapy, how I was already coaching at that time, right, so I was very much living this like double life, as it felt to me, um, and, and so then, the morning after this argument, allison, you know, it's that whole I was the one that had a lot to say, you know, 12 hours prior.
Speaker 1:But the moment you wake up, your mouth is shut and your tail between your legs and you don't want to face anything. And you know, after about an hour of existing in the house together saying nothing, all she says to me in a moment was do you remember what you said to me last night? And you know, like a real man, I said no, when, in fact, I remember quite a bit, but what I know is I didn't remember everything and what I was more afraid of was hearing it backed, like I didn't want the reflection. Um, so in that moment I said no, I don't. And what she said to me, uh it, it. I mean I can't even describe the impact it had, but all she said in response to me, saying no was well, I'll never forget, and it brings me to tears every time. I bring this up because I know at that time what I was capable of, and I know that you know I had. I mean I, I was a man whom I did not respect, and the way that I also look at it too, if I'm being very candid, is in that moment mind very candid is in that moment.
Speaker 1:I'm 39 now. I was in my early 30s. At the time, in that moment, I had realized that I had become the version of my father that I did not respect. This isn't a slight on him by any stretch, but you know, those behaviors were something that I witnessed often growing up. Uh, and that was the moment I realized that I could no longer. I could no longer like lie to myself, I could no longer accept the bullshit that I was feeding myself and I had to do something drastic.
Speaker 1:Um, and a client of mine at the time had recently had a journey with a shaman here in California and made the connection, and I knew in that moment, like this was what I was supposed to do. And again, the very first, you know, journey with MDMA I, the things that were revealed to me were the root of my rage. Um, won't go into extreme detail here, but it from that day and I do mean literally from that day. It's been several, it's been a handful of years now. Um, I have not, I've been angry, but my experience of anger has been 180 degrees different, and it's I 100%, it's not even a question. It was at the hands of the medicine and the support in which I was receiving while on my journey Right on.
Speaker 1:Wow, good work, yeah, so that was a cliff notes version, a very long cliff note of you know the importance and why I think the work that you're doing is so important, is so significant, and I would love to, like I said I shared that, to kind of just give some little details about you know how it's impacted me, and I would love to hear from you, being someone that's been in these, you know these journeys and facilitating them and, and you know, having the depth of knowledge you have around the medicines themselves, um, I would love to know genuinely for my own interest, um, just kind of what, what you're working on, what you're teaching, how you like to to talk about these things, because I, as someone who's just experienced them as, um, uh, someone in the healing seat, I want to better understand and hopefully someday move into a position where I'm able to hold space and facilitate you know, journeys, uh, in the future, so I'd love to know again, you can take that wherever you wish, um, but just your thoughts and and tidbits and whatever it is that you'd like to, to make sure I and others here there's a lot of questions in that, um sorry.
Speaker 2:Um, I would say for anyone listening who's also wanting to start potentially facilitating, that it's something to get in with with with lots of caution and a lot of personal work yourself. Right, like it takes a lot of. I think it takes a lot of experience to do this. Well, because the nature of our own psyche is that we, we project on to each other and when you're facilitating you're in this position of power and it can get really sketchy. So there's really a need to very well know yourself and very well understand these medicines. In my opinion, that's even up for debate. But yeah, the world of psychedelics and how it's unfolding in the mainstream is really interesting, exciting, kind of scary thing that is happening right now. You know for the longest time it's been in the mainstream is really interesting, exciting, kind of scary thing that is happening right now. You know for the longest time it's been in the underground. People can talk about it. Now, suddenly it's emerging and you know it's. It's being pioneered by the medical model, which, which you know it's great and it's giving legitimacy. We have the research, we have the numbers, we have the science to say, hey, this is actually really helping people's lives. This is treating things that SSRIs and all kinds of other medications. It's treating symptoms and problems that SSRIs weren't able to make a dent in. And MDMA is now finishing its trials and getting legalized by MAPS. So, you know, thank them, thank them all for for helping legitimize it in everyone's eyes. But, but, um, when it's just the medical model pioneering, this it's, it creates a world that you know like falls into many of the medical model pitfalls, and you know there's there's a lot of pitfalls to fall into. So, so one of my projects is I work with the global psychedelic society, one of the stewards, and what a what a psychedelic society is? Because it's kind of what is it? They're basically community led organizations that have popped up all around the world on their own accord. Nobody has been orchestrating it. The world on their own accord, nobody has been orchestrating it.
Speaker 2:People have kind of like heard about it and going, oh, you know, in the uk or in san francisco, which is one of the first ones, um, people are getting together and they're having conversations. There it's almost like a mini conference. People get together to listen to an expert give an hour and a half presentation, um, and and there's some mingling and people get to chat about it afterwards and and they go home. You know, and this is an event and that's one format there's actually multiple formats. So that's the education model, but there's also integration circles, where people are getting together just to talk about what happened to them, what, what came up for them in their last journey, how it's unfolding in their day-to-day life, maybe what their fears are as they're preparing to go into their first journey, whatever it is. There's also, you know, psychedelic storytelling sessions and you know open mics and you know, like, basically, you think about it. If it falls in the field of psychedelics, people are getting together around it and it's happening at a psychedelic society, hopefully near you, Um, and so.
Speaker 2:So these psychedelic societies, they exist. There's over 300 around the world, and you can learn about them more on our website. You can find the ones that are near you. It's global psychedelicorg, um, but you know it's. It's an interesting model.
Speaker 2:Events is never necessarily lucrative, and though some of them have figured out how to fully thrive at it, you know it's also hard. So, being a good business person and running a community or different skill sets, they don't always overlap, and so our job is to get those leaders together to learn from each other, help figure out what it takes for them to thrive. And you know we're raising money and we're creating teams and we're doing the investigation of, like, what is the best business models? How can we templatize them for other people who want to start a psychedelic society in their community? How can we, as a psychedelic society, connect with accountability and ethics practitioners in this space?
Speaker 2:Because you know there's one of the warning signs of new facilitators is, like I said, things go awry. They're not always necessarily acting in integrity, but what does a community do when something like that happens? They don't always have something to connect to. So you know we're wanting to build those bridges with experts in the field. Yeah, and so so we are on a mission to help help new people find psychedelic communities so that they can learn about psychedelics in the community space versus just the medical. Also, when they're coming out of the medical model, they can come to the community afterwards or or during whatever. But they all work complimentary and you know a lot of people they're learning about psychedelics, they're stoked about it, they're going to go research it and figure out how to get some 5-MeO DMT and work on it on their own, but might not have the money to deal with the therapist to help them unpack it later on. And okay, here's your psychedelic community with the integration circles. We can help you figure that out.
Speaker 1:I can attest to having had now several experiences, both, you know, an individual experience being supported by someone so it was just me under the medicine and then being in different, in some cases larger, group settings where you know it was being facilitated by one or a couple but there were anywhere between 15 and 20 people under a medicine. Between 15 and 20 people under a medicine and the importance of the facilitator understanding how to navigate and support whatever comes through. I've been in an experience where the facilitator themselves got in over their head really quickly because someone you know was having an experience that was very necessary for them but you know they, the facilitator, wasn't prepared for the, quite frankly, the trauma that came through that this person had had endured, and I was on the front lines of being a part of that while, too, under the medicine. It was a very interesting experience.
Speaker 1:But, um, you know, if there's anything that I would say to anyone who has never done it but is curious, uh, or who is also interested in, you know, potentially supporting, respect, the medicine period, like it's not a game, it's not a game and it's not about fun, it's not about a party, it's not about any of that stuff, but the and obviously each medicine is a different experience. So, based on what I've done, I could you know what I would recommend, based on my limited experience, would be you know certain ones to begin with, just based on my journeys, but the importance of respecting the medicine, I think is paramount. And, like you said, having a facilitator that is seasoned not just with medicines but also understands, you know, at the very least, the basics of psychology and being trauma informed. Um, because the the way the facilitator I was with that day, I was actually appalled, if I were to put it lightly, at how he was trying to manage this person while they were in a very difficult space. It was very counterproductive.
Speaker 2:And a lot of people are getting traumatized in their journeys.
Speaker 1:You're wide open. More work, right, you're so wide open, yeah.
Speaker 2:Whatever bullshit your facilitator might not have processed for themselves, that's going to come up and influence your journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's, you know I mean these tools, these, like you said, this is not something to mess with. These are such powerful tools and and I think you know, they've like been in the shadows and prohibition has made it so it's not safe to talk about them. But now, now this is turning, so we need to get the information out and, like you know, part of the job of a psychedelic society is to educate people on how to vet your, your facilitator, how to like really understand what you're getting into, so that you were prepared as well as possible and not going to fall into a situation like what you, what happened for you?
Speaker 1:and and the other side of respecting the medicine was the individual who was in the very difficult journey at that time come to find out he wasn't truthful with God. His experience and he, for whatever reason this is what I'm about to say is is more of an assumption based on the experience, and it was, you know, directly from the individual, cause I had the opportunity to sit with with the gentleman that was in the journey. I was having a day full time after I actually became his anchor, so when he came out of it, like I was the one that he felt he could just literally sit there in silence with this. He was processing what he just experienced, but he he later revealed that he basically embellished his experiences and that he had not actually had, he's not as experienced under medicine as he had claimed experienced under medicine as he had claimed. So what he did is he tried to keep up with I think someone or others that he was kind of, you know, trying to connect with that were there in the group and he took a dose that was not appropriate for him.
Speaker 1:So again, it was this, you know, lack of respect for the power of these medicines and, um, you know, this isn't to scare anybody, but, like you said, start slow like a hundred percent, I think I don't care who you are. Start slow Cause you can always. You can always be guided into a deeper experience, if that's what you are prepared for. But whatever journey you take is the one you're going to be on, so right you take is the one you're going to be on.
Speaker 2:So right, yeah, yeah, yep, and if you get yourself into that pinch surrender and trust that something in there is going to help you grow one way or the other.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And yeah, trust rather than fight it, right.
Speaker 1:And I agree, like whatever it is, even if it gets a little uncomfortable. That's the work, that's what you're there for, right and in the right, in the right work. That's what you're there for, right and in the right setting. You're 100% taken care of. But I think the other part of this that is so, so, so important that I think many miss, especially if they're kind of doing it with amateurs or in casual settings, is the post-journey integration right. The ability to now unpack and make sense of whatever came through, I think is something that you know so many, whether it's a financial thing, or whether it's the community in which they're, they're having their experiences, or whatever it may be. So many are missing out on the power of the integr, the post journey integration yeah, yeah, and it's just for a lack of awareness.
Speaker 2:So this is, this is the work right to like. I mean, it's a buzzword, but it's a buzzword we should all know. It's simply taking that outside experience and bringing it into our lives and figuring out how to take the learnings from it and implement them as actual, actionable change on a regular, daily basis. You know, and yeah, there's lots of pitfalls, because the journey is exciting and the work always is, and the work, the integration work, isn't necessarily as exciting. Always isn't the work. The integration work isn't necessarily as exciting. But you know, I think, as it becomes more of a collectively known term and people, you know there's memes popping up about it and they're hilarious. You know we're, we're slowly getting there.
Speaker 2:I think we're recognizing how necessary it is well.
Speaker 1:And I'll also say that every uh 70s rock album cover now makes so much sense to me. Right, I see the art and I'm like, oh, I get it, that's funny. So the other thing, just to shift slightly, because I know this is such a we could go down a big rabbit hole here, but you know, not to keep that loop open, I think it's again, if I could offer one, one gift to the, to every person in the entire world, it would be, uh, at the very least a single journey, uh, with a medicine that calls to them Cause I believe that's a huge part of it Um, in a uh, you know, a setting that is supportive and conducive to the actual healing I think. I mean, there's no way the world doesn't come out, you know the way it's supposed to.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know, like I don't think it is for everyone. I think there's a lot of people who aren't. I mean, of course, if they could get the benefit from the psychedelic experience without necessarily giving up the control. But a lot of people are like no way, dude, I don't want to get get rid of that control, and, and you know, I think there's other ways. I think the idea the psychedelics are extraordinary and but they're they're just a tool, they're a way of getting to means, and I think that means is like can we get out of the monkey mind?
Speaker 2:and connect to this life in different ways, and so you know breath work and meditation and even ice bath, and so you know if, if, I, I. I love the idea underneath giving everyone an experience, but I think it's also just like get a give everyone experience of getting out of your head. Um, it's the head that seems to be causing so much of the problems that we're dealing with in this world today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I really appreciate that correction because you're absolutely right. Again, what I'm referring to is, if I could give anyone a gift, it would be the experience, the freedom that I experienced in those journeys, the detachment, the old limiting beliefs and trauma stories that I was carrying. That's the gift I wish all could could receive. And however one finds, um, what works for them, I mean that's what matters most. I don't think there's one way for everyone. I say this all the time. You know, in my coaching work it's like you know.
Speaker 1:I believe that you know all the strategies that are often used or referenced in in the healing spaces. I don't care if it's music, breath work, kundalini, psychedelics, I mean, the list is very long. I don't care what combination of those things someone uses. I believe they all work 100%, but I don't believe they all work for everyone at all times. I think they would all work for everyone, but depending on where that person is, what they're receptive to, what their experiences have been, there's obviously so many layers that we all bring to the table that you know. I do believe healing work is a dare I use the word a bit of a cocktail right, A mix of various tools at any given time to help us kind of work through and again detach from the monkey mind as you're describing it. That I definitely understand. That's the gift. So thank you for correcting me and challenging that notion a little bit, because you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2:I've just had enough. People be like I don't want you know, like I don't want to say that and I have to be like you know, and I mean they have been such a huge catalyst. I had a lot of trauma as a kid. I was completely, like, stuck in my mind. I felt like my mind was a jail cell and I could not think new, creative thoughts to get out of it. And if it weren't for the psychedelics and actually I also, you know, I studied kundalini yoga, I became a teacher, um, I think that played a big role in it um, finally being able to sit still with myself, um, but yeah, if it weren't for all of these things that got me out of the monkey mind, I who knows?
Speaker 2:where, where things would be, but I don't think they'd be pretty. And, yeah, I'm so grateful and I've had to, like, temper my enthusiasm, because people are like, you know, if it's not for them, it's not for them, and I'm like, okay, you know you I will, I will allow, if anything. My hope is that I inspire others when they see me like doing rad stuff and be like, oh, you know, psychedelics was a big part of what helped make that happen. But I am definitely, yeah, trying not to evangelize too much.
Speaker 1:Are you a coach who has been struggling to do everything yourself? I mean all of the content, the emails, the marketing, not to mention, every time you open your phone, there's a new social media strategy that someone is pitching that just makes you feel like you'll never be able to keep up.
Speaker 1:When all you really care about is helping people in a meaningful way, while building the kind of coaching business your family can depend on, your family can depend on. I'm Matthew Pates, the founder of Momentum, a growth agency that specializes in helping coaches, just like you, break through your first 100K. If you're a coach who is tired of trying to figure it all out themselves and you just want to build a business that works, then I'm going to encourage you to click the link in our show notes to take your 100K coaching assessment to find out if you're ready to unlock your six figure potential today. No, and I can understand that too and what I would say based on my experience, and correct me or shift this as you see fit. If you're someone who and if you're this person, you're going to resonate with what I'm about to say.
Speaker 1:I believe it's a knowing more than this, like you know saying the right words all the time. But if you're someone who genuinely wants to better understand yourself, you want to do that reflection, you want to, you know, kind of go inward and and connect dots and, like I said, better understand yourself is the easiest way I think I can put it. Then perhaps a medicine journey is is appropriate, right, and whatever medicine you feel called to, great. But if you're someone that is in a place where you're still wanting to escape your struggles, or the anxieties or the right, if it's this need to escape something, I would caution it Right, because I don't think the medicine is is one to be used as a tool of escape, but rather one to be respected as a tool of deeper understanding, if that's what you feel led to to experience.
Speaker 2:Um, you know there's a lot of conversation and a lot of caution around um the idea of uh, how do I want to navigate this one? You know there's people in pain and there's you know, like I don't know if I really um want to condemn people using substances to regulate themselves. Um, you know, like like alcohol, sugar, caffeine, like I had a lot of dysregulation in my nervous system.
Speaker 2:I was like in severe anxiety, felt very unsafe in my own being. And if it weren't for that pyramid of shit the sugar, caffeine, alcohol, like I don't know how I would have made it through, and you know, I don't know if it helps know how I would have made it through and you know, I don't know if it helps. I get torn because I also, I mean, on one level I'm like, yeah, don't do your drugs to escape. Like that's not. Don't use psychedelics to escape. But actually I mean, I don't know if it's as clear cut as that, because the reality it's like how about don't abuse them to escape? Maybe don't use them to the depth detriment, right? Because, like, I'm sorry, like I've had really, um, I've had really difficult times where I'm like, well, I don't want alcohol because that, really, like I'm done with alcohol.
Speaker 2:I barely have like a half a glass and I feel bad, like I have now connected my body enough that I am able to feel how harmful it is for my system, so I'm really grateful for that. However, like, ketamine is an interesting, fun medicine to work with and you know it's kind of controversial. But, like you know, the truth is I will have both very cathartic, beautiful, expansive experiences on the dance floor with my system system and I will. It won't be exclusively an escape. It will be wow. I'm connecting to my body in these different ways and I'm connecting to space and the music and I'm enhancing and it's beautiful. And also I'm getting out of my like monkey mind. I'm escaping it, like I'm tired of this guy running the show right now and I want to like get into a different way. You know, is that escape? Is that relief? Is that bad? I don't know. Like, I don't know if it's as black and white.
Speaker 2:However, I am a big fan of not abusing these things to yeah, to, you know, to a detriment of my system or of how I show up in relation to other people. You know so and that's my personal opinion. Um, so, yeah, I don't know. There's just like a lot of gray zones in between it all and I don't think it helps people who do need to use these substances to regulate themselves, to like condemn it or create shame or badness around that. Of course there's a term called psychedelic exceptionalism with this idea of like oh, we only use our drugs for the proper way, you know, and it's like it gets. It gets a little murky in between, right, but I mean we're all like trying to figure it out.
Speaker 1:So I think, opening that question there, I really appreciate this too, because you know, in your responses I'm I'm finding myself challenged, um, and I love this because you know when you were, you know the story that you were just describing about being on the dance floor, like what I was hearing is, you know, because I think this is also a beautiful part of the medicines is is it promotes and allows for authentic expression, whatever that might look like right and whatever form that may take, and I think that's something that most everyone dare dare put a you know some sort of quantifying phrase to this, but I think the mass majority of us are suffering from a lack of self expression and you know one of the best ways I ever heard the word depression described right, and this is with respect to the, to the ones that do have a clinical. You know there's a really legitimate form of depression that they're they're going through, but in my experience, how often that word is used, uh, or the way that it's kind of accepted in society, is misconstrued, and the best definition I've ever heard for me about depression was depression is nothing more than denied expression. And when you consider myself being someone who has experienced bouts of depression and work with many who are currently and have been themselves. I mean, I would argue that a hundred percent of the time and some level, whether conscious or otherwise, there was a um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, it'll come to me later.
Speaker 1:A suppression is the word I'm looking for, of self, of truth, of a, of a form of expression that they, they feel called to do, whether that be art, whether that be story, whether which is art, you know, whether, whatever it is, they are suppressing it to the degree that you know their body, in my opinion, their soul, is just, it's just starting to, to just kind of you know, curl up because, yeah, and I think that's the, that discomfort that most feels, it's not that the world is wrong or bad or that they're. Often they believe they're broken. There's no such thing as broken. I think it's. They're denying themselves something that you know can no longer rest dormant, like it's yearning for some sort of, you know, expression.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think that's for sure something that's happening right. But I think it's like sure something that's happening right. I but I think it's like I don't know. I've, um, I've recently had a journey where I was like this was just just a few weeks ago where I was like I forgot who I was, um, like after the journey because, or like halfway through the journey, I like got energy and I started being able to sing and dance and participate in an active way. It was the ayahuasca ceremony and it was the second night. And the first night was me kind of just like with stomach ache, feeling very sluggish and out of it, and just like not having a good time really but doing the work. And afterwards I came out like that second night. Suddenly I was like, oh my God, I can participate, I, I can have fun. I forgot who I was because of exactly what you described um.
Speaker 2:And, however, you know, I just feel like there's so much to it. It's like I think we are all within, each one of us, brilliant, creative souls, filled with so much potential, like every single human on this planet has the potential to be brilliant. Protect ourselves forces us to shut down. Oh, it's stopping so sensitive, stopping such a baby, you know, we're telling ourselves we're wrong all the time in order to to be able to survive in whatever the difficult circumstances we are in. And that builds, you know, and that's like all the adrenaline, all the cortisol, all of that that goes flowing through our body hardens in a shell that is not just, you know, physical, which I think it is, but also emotional, in a protective mechanism. And, you know, I think our desire for survival is driving the need to create this shell around us of protection. You know, and I also think the seed of potential is rich within that, but I don't know if it's just that the seed potential wanting to get out is creating the pain and depression and not being able to, or if it's this, you know, protective mechanism, that survival. You know that we've, we, we are lucky enough to have been able to protect ourselves in these ways. And, um, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting thing because I think they all play roles. You know, get like I get frustrated with some of the personal self-help work out there because it's just like positive affirmations, you've got it, and I'm like bullshit. Until you recognize all the I mean at least for me and this was my personal experience of what I'm reading and everything else is that until I recognize the? Um, I didn't have to necessarily re-experience the hard memories of my traumas, but I did have to experience and witness the pain and maybe the thought processes that came from it, that were in my body. I almost had to like go through all these hard experiences of my body and my body curled up, feeling like shit, negative thoughts, thoughts, thought looping, thought patterns, like I had to witness all of that over many ceremonies actually. And then, as I witnessed it, it released. As I witnessed, it released and.
Speaker 2:I became less protected, less guarded, more connected to myself, more connected to the brilliant soul within Um. And the reason why I forgot myself in this last ceremony is because I've been, like I said earlier, working really hard and, like my, one of my um addictive thought patterns or whatever bad behaviors coping mechanism is workaholism and I troll away on my computer and I was really trying to get a deadline through and I didn't make it, but I like completely shut myself down so that I forgot how to have fun, how to be bright and shine my light, and it was annoying and so no, that's, that's beautiful, and there's a couple of things here that you point that you touched on that I'm I'm loving.
Speaker 1:But I would love your thoughts on on an idea that I have. So, as I'm kind of witnessing our conversation in real time and in my experience of it, as we share, you know, different sides of kind of a similar coin, how much do you think our inabilities to articulate these experiences get in the way of kind of, I want to say like um, inspiring or allowing others, not just who haven't, but those that maybe even experience themselves like as we're sick? Let me try to make this clear. Like I described my perspective of like you know, don't, don't use it for escape, right, and then you had your, your perspective on that, which I loved, and that's the, the moment that I started to think about it's like, how often are our attempts to put language to these experiences actually kind of becoming the, the blocks or the hurdles from what it's really, what it really is or what it's really all about? Like, putting language to a soul experience, like, is that even possible?
Speaker 2:You're talking to a filmmaker and a storyteller, so I'm always trying to figure it out Like I spend all my days sitting there being like what if I said it like this, would it land? Would it resonate? I mean, I think the, I think language is really interesting and I think how would you know about it if I didn't tell you? And will it ever be truly accurate? No, because when I say this word, I mean this and you understand it to mean something else, right?
Speaker 2:right I mean, yeah, I, I do feel like, okay, you probably have to just try it to understand it and then also understand that you might need to try it 10 times. I had to drink ayahuasca eight times before. I had a mental experience like they were all physically grueling, completely non-visionary, completely boring, completely dull, um, and I ended up going to the jungles of peru and working with shamans and going on dieta and doing this like pretty hardcore path to break through. And when I finally broke through, I was like, okay, wow, this is my medicine. And after that, like my life started to much to make much more rapid steps and getting itself together. But yeah, I kind of feel like you just got to try it to really figure it out.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I kind of feel like you just got to try it to really figure it out, and I think you know we're talking about medicines, but I think this like super enlightened, super, you know, quote, unquote positive type of thing, quite frankly, when I can describe something as inspirational or as love, or as connected or, you know, aligned, or whatever the terminology we may, you know, attempt to find, I feel like that's where this, this part is just like available, right, it's not. Behind all of this, and you know, as someone myself who, you know, I always joke about getting into psychology, because you know I always say, like you don't get into psychology because you have your shit together, and I believe that I don't think any of us have our shit together, but I definitely did and do not. But the thing that came to me too, as you were describing needing to kind of experience those pains, um, you know, again, to release them, uh, something came to me when I was journaling the other day that I recognize as a part of my journey psychedelics just happened to be this, this important milestone in the process. But if I look at life just prior to that in life, but if I look at life just prior to that and life since the work up to psychedelics and with psychedelics early on was I realized me taking responsibility and genuinely accepting what my life had been up to that point, accepting my experiences, accepting my choices, accepting the parts of me that I didn't respect and I didn't chosen, and circumstantial before I could take responsibility for the future I could create Right, and what you were saying earlier with all this positive psychology stuff, which I don't disagree with, positive psychology, I just don't think it's the one, and you know it's.
Speaker 1:It's too heavy handed in one direction, I think, for many, just as other modalities are as well. That's why I say like, I believe healing is a cocktail and it's an appropriate mix of different things for each of us to really start to unlock the key, or the key to unlock ourselves, right. But when I was thinking about this, it's like so many of us, you know, right now it's the beginning of the year, it's what? January 8th. So you know, resolutions are a hot topic for many people, right, and resolutions really are just goals. And you know, as I sat there and thought about why, why, myself included, do so many of us struggle to one, accomplish the goals we set or two, once we accomplish them, maintain them right, sustain the change and what I believe to be true is that many of us are overcompensating or attempting to overcompensate for something you know we've. We're struggling with right Versus accepting it for what it is, experiencing it head on and allowing it to move through so that we can move forward. And I think so many people you know their goals are outside of what their current Identity will allow them to experience long term, and I truly believe that identity is the key here.
Speaker 1:Right, I heard Peter Sage and I'll turn it over to you to hear your thoughts on this. I heard a quote by a gentleman named Peter Sage and a Ted talk of his, and he said that no one I forget exactly how to phrase it, but he said no one can outperform the opinion they have of themselves. Right, which is really just an identity conversation. Right, it's like who do you believe yourself to be? Who do you believe? What do you believe you're capable of, what do you believe you're worthy of? And all these things, like the identity that's often developed, is developed in childhood.
Speaker 1:Right, no matter our experiences, we develop our original identities.
Speaker 1:Between the age of like six and seven is when it starts to really take root and from that point forward, we make the decision that this is who we are, what we're capable of, et cetera, based on our experiences and the environments that we're raised in, only to then become adults operating from this limited perspective of who we are and what we could possibly be in the world, because we're comparing ourselves to so much of what we could and quote unquote couldn't do growing up.
Speaker 1:So this idea of identity transformation that's really the journey that I believe we're all on is understanding and go who do you want to become? That I believe we're all on is like understanding and go who do you want to become? And then how would that person show up to their fitness, their health, their relationship, their finances, et cetera, versus I need to make this much money this year, I need to to lose this amount of weight, or gain this amount of weight, or whatever the goal or resolution may be. You know, instead of like hitting this arbitrary number, it's like well, who, who do I need to become in order to, to create that and better sustain it once we arrive.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Yeah, I really. I really appreciate that Peter Sage quote, um, and and the way you framed it, of there just being a conflict with our own understanding of our identity. I teach storytelling and I do it in two ways.
Speaker 2:One, I teach it for teachers and guides and facilitators, entrepreneurs, to better unpack how they've reconciled that identity conflict and that's for those who are wanting to share it, to inspire others so that you learn how to.
Speaker 2:How do you get that in that, like that big story that's going to resonate with your um, with your audience and and share it in five to 10 minutes in a big way?
Speaker 2:But, uh, when it comes to working with people one-on-one who are still in the process of actually mending that conflict and of that identity within themselves, you know, I think it's really fascinating to create a timeline of your life where you list, you know, and you say, okay, what's one of the struggles that I, you know, like, I have a goal, I want to make a bunch of money. Well, let's look at what your life experiences and your stories around money have been and you like, create all the. You just map out on a timeline all of the significant memories you have around money and you know, I mean some of them might be insignificant. That's great. It's like one of my students was like I just remember my dad pulling out money, wanting to buy me something some candy when I was five years old, and his wallet was very threadbare and there was like one or two like single bills in there and I felt really bad for asking for the thing and I put it away, you know, and there was this feeling of we don't have enough.
Speaker 2:They're like, um, I, I should make myself small, I shouldn't ask for what I want. You know, and um, and and like, as she started to unpack that and a few others. You know, there's this thing of like, hey, friends, those hard experiences you had in your early formative years, they're not, they're, they're, they happen to you. But that's just like the beginning of a program. It doesn't, it's not actually indicative of your own worth. There's nothing inherent. It's just that you went through these situations. You came up with a meaning. But I went through these situations. I came up with this meaning, you came up with those situations. They're all just like. I like to look at them as programs and, yes, we live our lives according to that program. Now, oh, I'm going to always make myself small because I nobody has money and I shouldn't be a burden on anyone to ask for what?
Speaker 2:maybe I'm worth, right, and so how does that unfold in your current day life? It's, it's like it's a formula. I love it. Yeah, I mean it's so fascinating. Once we get away like a bird's view and shift our perspective to those stories and start to look at them, then you can start to realize you're living according to a formula. It's not on you, it's not about your inherent value or worth at all, and that starts to, I think really starts to shift that identity conflict you were mentioning this.
Speaker 1:this is so amazing and I love that storytelling is is your craft, your art? Because, um, it's something that I have. I actually feel, uh, how was this? I guess I get a little self-conscious when it comes to storytelling because, uh, you know, I have this idea that, you know, I'm not that good at it yet, uh, so I can find myself being very in my head while attempting to to share a story, while sharing a story actually, um, but I believe that's that started to show up for me, because I've recognized the, the power in storytelling.
Speaker 1:You know, it's something that I would, you know, I never really understood or took much you know concern with, for for much of my life, Someone that grew up performing physically, sports et cetera, like storytelling was never, you know, paramount to my being. But as I've gotten older and especially in the work that we do, like, you know right, hearing stories and listening to stories and sharing my own and understanding the difference of, you know, because I came up through the trauma space, because of my own traumas, naturally, and you know, one of the biggest shifts for me around story is when I realized that the way that I was describing my experiences was from this place of being in it still, like I was describing it as I was still in it, versus doing the work to be able to describe my experiences from a place of being with it Right, and how that can shift, for others to be able to see themselves inside of what I may or someone may be sharing, versus comparing themselves to the story. You know, because I find that we often will treat our stories almost like competitions or our traumas rather as competitions, where it's like if you were to share your upbringing and you know all the details that you remember and that you felt were significant. You know, good, bad or otherwise. You know I on this side of the conversation, may think to myself like, oh, who does she think she is Like she? You know she, she doesn't know shit, she hasn't been through anything I've been through, Right, and I could minimize your, your experiences, or the other would be true.
Speaker 1:Whereas I hear your story, I could think to myself like, well, no, who am I to feel the way I do about my life, Like I've not been through anything this person has and I would minimize mine, Verse, because we're comparing context, right, or our interpretation of each other's context, rather, and you know, through paying a little closer attention to story and in the framework of story, and how one can convey many different points and lessons and and experiences by understanding how to frame, you know, some an experience is. I am, I'm just finding so much respect for it and I think that's where, like, my oh shit kind of comes in, Cause I'm like oh shit, it's like the medicines, or it's like I respect it, but I, I, because that I know I'm not there yet with it.
Speaker 2:I should take my class.
Speaker 2:I'm going to offer it in February. Yeah, yeah, you know it brings to mind what you said. This quote from Marianne Williamson. We all know the first part of it, so the but the part that I want to speak on is she says you're playing. Small does not serve the world. There's nothing in lined about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We are born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone, and as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others. She's on to some good stuff there, right?
Speaker 2:like you know. So what like, maybe you know to to any listener who's like, but my trauma was so big, you know, and the thing about it is your trauma might be so big and somebody else's might be a little bit small, but the way they handled the small thing might be insight for how you could navigate some aspect of your big trauma right like it's just never, you know, they don't.
Speaker 2:They don't compare the way we can measure how tall we are. It's an interesting thing, but I think that the rule on that is just like stop comparing.
Speaker 1:The comparing game just never works for any of us, right no, and it really doesn't, and I know it's something that's, you know, widely spoken and there's, you know, countless instagram memes that say that or some variation of that.
Speaker 1:But I think like a lot of, I think like wisdom in general, anything that's genuinely wise that's ever spoken at first sounds whatever.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like too easy or it's too trivial, or it's like doesn't really make sense, right, it sounds cheesy even in some cases.
Speaker 1:But when you really commit to your own path whatever that looks like and I do mean your own where you start to put the shutters on right, you start to say, okay, I'm making decisions that I'm going to, uh, I'm going to take my life in this very specific direction, whatever that that is for someone, but it's consciously, not by way of the wind hitting your sails in a different way today than it did yesterday, and you're just going to see where it takes you, but like when we embark on a journey that is chosen and deliberate. I think then you know these, these stories, these, these, you know snippets of someone's conversations that are just drenched in wisdom, become understood, right, they become felt experiences versus just, you know, these kind of nice sounding words that some people will, will use sometimes words that some people will will use sometimes, um, so I love it. I'm just finding that, you know, the the deeper we go, the simpler things actually are, and actually, the more simple they are, the more, the more depth we feel right.
Speaker 1:And those experiences and I've subscribed recently to a philosophy of essentialism and I'm very new to it, so by no means am I the expert on this, but really the thing that I subscribe to most is kind of their mantra, which is just a simple sentence of less but better, right. Or it's like, once you identify yeah, it's like once you identify your path, that's the first part that takes a ton of work to even get there. Like once you identify yeah, it's like once you identify your path, that's the first part, that takes a ton of work to even get there. But once you, once you identify the path that you are going to deliberately choose, uh, then it becomes. You know, how do we eliminate the distractions? Or you know the term I've come to use for this is what? What are the things that we need to unsubscribe to so that we could stay in track, stay on this lane, and in doing so, life become. You know, the things become less, but life becomes better.
Speaker 2:Gorgeous. That's that's, you know. I mean, that's all my medicine. Journeys keep bringing me back to these super profound truths and it's just like you know, spend more time outside. It's like these very simple things like nurture your relationships that you value, you know, and you're like no kidding buddy, and it feels so profound in the moment and then afterwards you're like wait a minute, but but there's, I love this philosophy. I'm going to look into it, it more. It's very much like, especially in this day of like oversaturation of information and entertainment, there's so much and I find myself getting um, when I am not on my a game, if I'm in my workaholic game, then I end up actually spending more time on my phone zoning out, doing stupid shit and like multitasking than I would if I was being more intentional, and the quality of my life goes down because of all this distraction, you know, and it's so, yeah, that's beautiful. I look forward to looking into that more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love this I look forward to looking into that more. Yeah, I love this. So with respect to the time, I would be very curious to hear, because I know you made reference to a program that you're going to, or a class or whatever it is, that you're going to be launching again here it sounds like February. I would love to know more about what you're creating and would love to invite you know anyone who resonates with this into uh cause. You certainly have my attention.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. Yay, Thank you.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, I am offering a course called articulate your wisdom story crafting for leaders, creatives, entrepreneurs and guides, and you know, I, I really I believe we all have these powerful stories to tell. Even if your life, if you're like, oh, my life's been kind of quiet and kind of boring, I think if you were to take the time and like run it through these exercises, through these different processes, you're going to learn that you, within the ingredients of your life experiences, have some some um, like real ingredients to you living your life, your fullest purpose, and to whatever your expertise is, whatever your wisdom is, whatever you have to share in this world. I think it exists in your life experiences and it's just a matter of like taking the time. It's like we're sitting on these mountains of lived experiences, but rarely are we taught to like bring our adult or now adult experience perspective to it and evaluate it.
Speaker 2:Because, to your point earlier, you were like, yeah, you know, we our identity forms at this young age, we make decisions about who we are at this young age. We, our identity forms at this young age. We make decisions about who we are at this young age and then we just run on autopilot from them from then on. But when you come to this, you know, I feel like this is something that what I found is people under 30, it might be a little bit too early for them to do this. You might want to be 30 or over for this process, because you know you're still learning. You're still. You need to max out on what you originally thought you were and let that start to hit a wall before you can start stepping into who you truly are meant to be.
Speaker 1:I think I'm freaking out right now, if no one can see me, because I couldn't agree more. I think 30 just has this way of of kind of introducing us to ourselves like no other, right, even as I'm about to turn 40, it's a different experience than it was when I turned 30. Because if you think about your 20s, you enter, leaving 19, you exit at 30. Like there's no decade so drastic, I think, than that one. And you know the quarter-life crisis, midlife crisis. I think we all go through a quarter-life crisis. We're just often inundated with children and all these kind of things during that phase in our life, typically. So we don't necessarily feel it or or can sit with it consciously as well as some do in their midlife.
Speaker 1:But I think all of those identity crisis that we experience inevitably are nothing more than the former identities. Shelf life coming to pass, right, it's just saying it's spoiled milk. They're like this isn't working anymore. You know we need to to to update our software, our programming so that we can continue to move forward as we were designed, right. I don't think there are examples or or further evidence of our brokenness. I think it's quite the opposite. So, but thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. You're such a beautiful soul and these conversations are amazing and, again, I love that you've challenged many of my thoughts today and you know I'm just such a fan of you and your work and although we haven't known each other that long, you know it was immediate that you were someone that I knew was going to make a difference for me, and I'm super excited for anyone that has the opportunity to get to experience you in any capacity.
Speaker 2:So thank you for for having me, Matthew. It's been such a pleasure. Thanks for receiving all the ideas and asking the good questions. And yeah, you know, and for anyone who wants to follow along this journey and learn more about any of the things I've talked about, my website is yourstoryiseverythingcom. The Global Psychedelic Society again is globalpsychedelicorg, and I do a lot of stuff on Instagram, so you can find me there at Marisa underscore Sturtz.
Speaker 1:I love this and, by the way, I love that earlier. I'm like is it our inability to articulate the soul and the wisdom? Is that our thing? And then you're like so my course is articulate wisdom.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, of course it is. I think we all have wisdom inside of us. It's all there, right? It's just a matter of taking the time to figure it out.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, you're beautiful, I appreciate you and I'm going to let you get to your work and again, I'll be here to support you in any way that you think would be of benefit. So let me know.
Speaker 2:So good to be in touch. Thank you, matthew. Let me know, so good to be in touch.
Speaker 1:Thank you, matthew, take care. Thank you, take care you.