What if viewing difficult feedback as a sign of progress could revolutionize your business approach? In this enlightening episode, we sit down with Chanti Zak, the copywriting genius behind transformative quizzes for industry legends like Amy Porterfield and Jenna Kutcher. Discover how Chanti triumphed over self-doubt and fear of failure to build a business that genuinely reflects her values. We unravel her journey of committing to one's unique gifts and the vital role mentorship plays in unlocking true potential. This conversation will inspire you to challenge societal norms around education and forge a path that resonates deeply with your personal aspirations.
Chanti Zak dives into the delicate art of aligning values within client relationships, emphasizing the power of authentic communication and inquiry. Learn the strategies she employs to foster trust and balance personal beliefs with professional responsibilities. Even when clients' values don't fully align with her own, Chanti creates a safe space for genuine collaboration and connection. This episode is a goldmine for anyone looking to master the nuanced dance of maintaining integrity while delivering exceptional results in copywriting and coaching.
Join us as we peel back the layers of embracing free will and conviction in both personal and professional realms. Chanti’s captivating anecdotes, from navigating differing religious beliefs within her family to finding success through emotional resonance, offer profound insights into respecting diverse paths and staying committed amidst uncertainty. This episode touches on everything from discovering your niche in business to leveraging feedback as a powerful tool for growth. Don't miss this chance to enrich your mindset and learn from Chanti’s experiences on overcoming pressure, embracing feedback, and cultivating resilience on the journey to excellence.
Connect with Chanti on IG
Join her newsletter: Spill The Tea <-- This is a must for anyone growing an online business!
Connect with Me
IG: @matthewpaetz
Start Here to Find Out - What's Blocking You From Making Your First $100k?
What if viewing difficult feedback as a sign of progress could revolutionize your business approach? In this enlightening episode, we sit down with Chanti Zak, the copywriting genius behind transformative quizzes for industry legends like Amy Porterfield and Jenna Kutcher. Discover how Chanti triumphed over self-doubt and fear of failure to build a business that genuinely reflects her values. We unravel her journey of committing to one's unique gifts and the vital role mentorship plays in unlocking true potential. This conversation will inspire you to challenge societal norms around education and forge a path that resonates deeply with your personal aspirations.
Chanti Zak dives into the delicate art of aligning values within client relationships, emphasizing the power of authentic communication and inquiry. Learn the strategies she employs to foster trust and balance personal beliefs with professional responsibilities. Even when clients' values don't fully align with her own, Chanti creates a safe space for genuine collaboration and connection. This episode is a goldmine for anyone looking to master the nuanced dance of maintaining integrity while delivering exceptional results in copywriting and coaching.
Join us as we peel back the layers of embracing free will and conviction in both personal and professional realms. Chanti’s captivating anecdotes, from navigating differing religious beliefs within her family to finding success through emotional resonance, offer profound insights into respecting diverse paths and staying committed amidst uncertainty. This episode touches on everything from discovering your niche in business to leveraging feedback as a powerful tool for growth. Don't miss this chance to enrich your mindset and learn from Chanti’s experiences on overcoming pressure, embracing feedback, and cultivating resilience on the journey to excellence.
Connect with Chanti on IG
Join her newsletter: Spill The Tea <-- This is a must for anyone growing an online business!
Connect with Me
IG: @matthewpaetz
Start Here to Find Out - What's Blocking You From Making Your First $100k?
In this episode of the Changemakers Podcast, we sit down with the amazingly talented and kind Shanti Zak.
Speaker 1:Shanti is a copywriter by trade and a powerhouse by design. She is most known for her specialty creating game-changing quizzes for some of the biggest names in the game, such as Amy Porterfield, Jenna Kutcher, John Lee Dumas and so many more. But in this episode, Shanti and I talk more about the struggles of navigating building a business that actually aligns with your truth. So if you're someone who is currently struggling with doubt and the fear that you may not have what it takes to become a successful entrepreneur, then this is for you, Because by the end of this episode, you're going to learn about the power of committing to your gifts, how difficult feedback is actually evidence you're getting it right, how difficult feedback is actually evidence you're getting it right, and how borrowing belief from a mentor was the key that unlocked the life and business Shanti has now.
Speaker 1:So I hope you take as much from this conversation as I have and, if you do, please subscribe and share your biggest takeaway so we can share her wisdom with more changemakers like you. So, Shanti Zach, welcome to the Changemakers podcast. I am deeply grateful to have you here and you are literally the embodiment of what I hope this podcast not really becomes, but what it represents for people, and you know I'll share much more on what I mean by that shortly, but I really just want to start by saying thank you for your time and thank you for your willingness to jump on a conversation with a complete stranger from the Internet and really see where this goes. So I appreciate you being here with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm so stoked to be here and I've used that language of changemakers in my own copy for years and years and years. It's like who do you help, who do you serve, who's your ideal client? And I always go toward the changemakers and the rule breakers and the visionaries and the creatives. But yeah, that like it's a great, it's a great title. So that immediately called me in.
Speaker 1:Awesome and it's. It's so funny because that's exactly where I wanted to start was. I'm really curious. You know, when I was looking at your website before we jumped on here and you know, you're such a I mean, literally, you are a wordsmith, it's what you do um, and when I was reading through it it's like every other word I was like yes, yes, absolutely, like god, that's exactly it. And you start with those two things the change makers and the rule brokers. And I would love to know what does change makers actually mean to you? Like, how do you define what that is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a great question. I mean, I think it is sort of inherent in many of the people who are venturing out of the mainstream way of living their lives and making money and choosing and acting on their vocation. The people who are starting businesses largely are those who experience immense pain staying in like the little box that we've been told is a safe place. So anyone who's stepping outside of that paradigm and even asking the question is another way possible and then taking courageous action towards building something from the ground up very often with zero prior knowledge or experience in the business building world that to me like immediately ticks the box of change maker. Because even if the only thing you're trying to do is change your own life and your own reality your own life and your own reality that's the starting point. From there we can, like help others and create collective change. But it kind of starts right here, right, I love it.
Speaker 1:So, out of curiosity, cause I as much as I followed you and I've taken some of your courses and you've been a huge inspiration. I don't know that I've ever heard you share, but what like what? What rules did you have to break to to create the life that you now have?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. Well, a big one for me was actually around education, and I was raised to believe that if you want to be somebody, if you want to make good money, if you want to have a successful career, you need to go to university, you need to get a degree, and at the same time I was terrible in school. I, you know, barely graduated high school in school. I, you know, barely graduated high school. It it wasn't really even an option for me to go to any sort of post secondary.
Speaker 2:And yeah, like there's still a subtle little bit of shame that comes up when I say that out loud, but really, like moving through that and realizing that isn't true, Like actually it can be detrimental to go that route. So many times I've had conversations with friends who, you know, went into huge amounts of debt to get a Bachelor of Arts or study marketing and like they're you, you know, working as a bartender and it's there's no alignment. And when you're so young too, to be choosing what you want to do for the rest of your life and investing all that time and money, like at this stage in the game, I realize I'm so grateful that I didn't go that route, but I had to break that rule for myself and overcome that idea that that was the only way.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I find that picking, you know, asking 18, 17, 18, 19 year olds to pick their forever career is a lot like saying marry the person you dated in middle school.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And you look back and you're like you know nothing against that person, but like we are not, we were not aligned. So I, you know I share many of those experiences myself, specifically in relation to the shame around education. And I didn't. I went to university only a couple of years, but in my late twenties and you know my background I always say my background is in psychology because I can't say, you know, I'm licensed or any of those things. And what came with that and still does, is this like, like, is it respected? Is it like I'm? I've always tried to attempt to communicate that it feels. I feel like I know some, some great things and how to help people. And the results would say that you know, I've been able to do that over the years, mostly with my life and then with those who I've been able to support. But that shame around what does it mean to be intelligent? What does it mean to be smart? You know what quantifies those things in the first place has been something I am still, to this day, unpacking.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, Same here Sometimes. My husband is a builder and he does a lot of construction projects and right now we just got a cow recently and she had a baby, and so now there's this whole project of building not building the barn from scratch, but fixing a lot of the barn not building the barn from scratch, but fixing a lot of the barn and so my husband will do these like doodles of the, the vision he has for the space, and my brain, like I can't. I can't comprehend it. I'm like what are you explaining to me right now? Like my brain just doesn't work that way. I can't put like two pieces of wood together without getting covered in splinters and giving up. And yeah, for him it's second nature and it's just like this recognition that we all have unique gifts and just because we're not excelling in one area doesn't mean we're innately stupid. It's just that's how. That's how is, Although, when I meet those people who are like, seem to be good at everything, just but you just throw mashed potatoes at them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, yeah, I love this and I'm curious with this, this idea of the barn. So one question that I have written down here, and quite literally it's the only question, is I knowing what you do, as far as like not just discovering your own voice, to be able to write the copy in a way that feels, you know, natural and authentic to you? You, but I know that you support many different people across the board and I assume that it is a spectrum of personalities and backgrounds and expertise. So how do you or, better yet, where do you start in relation to gaining clarity, either your clarity on someone or helping them become clear on themselves, so that you can create something that aligns?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I ask so many questions, and so sometimes I do that at scale, right, with something like a quiz or assessment, and sometimes I do that in conversation, say with a client or a student, and it's really this process of inquiry that you, I'm sure, are intimately familiar with as a coach, right, it is such a learning curve and a practice to ask questions without putting your own projections onto the answers. So that's what I'm, you know, always trying to do in, whether it's with something like a quiz or in just conversation with the person that I'm working with, and then seeing where that goes and how that unfolds is where the magic happens, right, it's like I always use the analogy that every question is like a door and you open the door and you don't know what you're going to find, so you have to be open to then taking that next step, going through the doorway and based on what you see there, that's where it leads us to the next question, and we just kind of go deeper and deeper in that way.
Speaker 1:And you know it's funny with quizzes, because you can only ask so many questions and you know it's funny with quizzes because, you can only ask so many questions, you can only understand so much from someone in how they answer, and so you know you're only giving them this tiny little fraction of the whole spectrum of who they are, what they might need to hear or see, and in with clients and students it's the same, but you can often like go even deeper, so yeah, and how do you know when, like, you've hit that sweet spot, right Cause I know, like digging could, we could dig forever, forever, right, but how do you know when you hit that sweet spot, either when you're creating something of your own or when you're working with someone else, and you know, like we got it, like this is, this is what we need to achieve x.
Speaker 2:I think it's a feeling. It's. It's when someone communicates, resonance, and you hear it in their words, but more than that, you hear it in their energy and you know a back and forth dynamic conversation, um, with the words and with communicating on the internet and at scale. You don't always have that luxury Right, and so then you're more reliant on the actual word expression of like whoa, this was so me, you get me.
Speaker 2:I feel like X, y, z and having that feedback and that input, that's how I know that I got it and I and I hit on something there, like when people actually want to share your work and when they actually feel compelled to respond, that's where that I know I've hit a sweet spot and there's something there and say with, like a client or a student, it's really an energetic shift. That sounds kind of woo, but it's like a barrier comes down. It's like you can feel when someone trusts you a little bit more than they did 10 minutes ago or two weeks ago, and as those barriers come down, it's like okay, they feel seen and I know that I'm doing a good job in asking the right questions to get to that place where they can feel that way and feel like their, their voice or their intention has been captured and communicated.
Speaker 1:I love this and, like I said, my background. I specifically work with trauma. That's where I began and much because of my own story. But understanding, like you know, getting allowing someone to creating a container for someone to feel safe enough right To begin opening some of those doors, I find is, I mean oftentimes, sometimes the greatest gift I think we can offer someone.
Speaker 1:And I bring this up because I'm also curious, you know, as someone who has worked with you know, I imagine, thousands of people you know technically at this point, how do you and maybe it's the filter on the front end, but when working with someone and working this intimately with them, right, you're getting in and understanding their values, their perspectives, their beliefs and all of these like really important, kind of the key to what you're, what you do, I would assume. But how do you work with someone that you may not actually align with? Right, not saying that what they believe is wrong or bad or any of those types of things, cause I imagine if it was, if that line was ever met, it's like all right, enjoy, you know. But for those that you just genuinely you don't align with, like, how have you navigated that throughout your career?
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's such a good question. I have been sitting with this a bit lately because I have this client right now who I absolutely adore. She is like so brilliant and kind and has this huge vision and is also very religious and I won't like call out any specific religions. I'm not super religious. I am like agnostic, spiritual, open to many different things, and I see truth in all of these different religions and there's just like I'm just not a like there's no dogma involved and um, not that there is with her either.
Speaker 2:It's just that she's like all in on this one religion and it's interwoven in all of her copy. It's interwoven in all of her values and I love it. I'm like I can appreciate that about you and how that leads you through life without having the same belief structure. And, yeah, there's something liberating there, like we don't have to all believe the same things and you know she's. She's not like the, because if it were at this other end of the religious spectrum where you're like dogmatic about it and everyone who doesn't believe this is evil and needs to be saved, like that's not my vibe I probably wouldn't work with that person. But she's not like that at all.
Speaker 2:It's like we recognize free will in each other and that we each come to our set of beliefs through our own paths and there's this certain respect there and we just coexist.
Speaker 1:I love that, the recognizing free will in each other part, right, because I think I mean in any intimate relationship, whether it's a business, you know, which is intimate, it's financial, it triggers the same parts of us, as you know physical intimacy does with partners.
Speaker 1:So it's, you know, to be in a relationship like that and both be able to recognize and respect the free will.
Speaker 1:And the other is, I mean, if we could all land just there, right, like how much better would life be for all of us.
Speaker 1:Um, and, and I am, I'm in alignment with you, like I stand on that same same side of the conversation, and one thing that I've said and, by the way, my sister is is the opposite, you know, not total, but she's, she's definitely much more um, devout and in her religious beliefs and I was raised under, uh, you know those conversations as well and, um, the the one thing and I don't know if you, I'm saying this cause I'm curious if you would agree, I don't know if you, I'm saying this because I'm curious if you would agree the one thing on that topic is and I think this could also translate to business strategy.
Speaker 1:I know those are very different things, right, but I think the same principle could apply where. You know, I shared with my sister when I started to have the courage to voice where I stood on this conversation, to voice where I stood on this conversation and phrase that it would offend or upset or, you know, create some sort of you know, disconnect between her and I. But what I landed on was that I'm, I'm okay if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, if I get up there and it, it's the way that she and others you know, extremely believe and I'm like like, okay, I guess you know, I hope that I live my life in such a way that, you know, still, I might, you know, get a high five in the way in, but if not, I'm also okay with the way that I have lived, I've started to live my life over the last few years and if that, wherever that takes me, is where we're going to ride, so, um, but I, I, I compare that to business because you know, I find that so many, you know, we struggle so much with identifying the path that's most aligned with us. Right, we're pursuing the, the things that others have, you know, either proven to be successful in their own way, or that we are convinced is the only way, or, whatever the relationship is, I think you know getting to that place where you're comfortable.
Speaker 2:It's not about not being right, but you're comfortable if you know other people are doing it better, differently, right, yeah, or being comfortable knowing that you might be wrong or that you might change your mind and things will evolve, and that is not easy to do. But neither is certainty Right Like I, and so there's this part of me that admires the like extremely devout. I'm certain that this is the way and you know, this religion is the right one, or this strategy is the right one. Like there's a part of me that is sort of almost jealous of that in other people.
Speaker 1:I'm like how do you how?
Speaker 2:do you have that Cause I don't have that in anything Like. There's always gray in all aspects of almost everything in life and business and personal growth strategy included. It's like, okay, I'm going to do this thing and make this move and I'm committed to it. Am I certain that it is going to result in success or what I want? No, and I don't know how anyone could be, do you? Is there a difference in your opinion between conviction and commitment, whereas commitment could be? I don't know that this is going to work, but I'm committed to following through and giving it a shot.
Speaker 1:I love this. Do you? Do you feel like in business and relationships and motherhood and all of the? You know these things like you have been. You've lived a committed life.
Speaker 2:Yeah and conviction in certain areas.
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 2:But yeah, like there's a lot of commitment and you know, even from like homesteading and growing food and raising a family, like I'm committed to that, even though I know there's like alternative routes that might be easier. And in business, there's this commitment to watching and holding space for my own evolution and knowing that things will change. And I'm going to, you know, continue to be committed on some level, even if things look different from year to year.
Speaker 1:Love this. That was an unlock for me, year to year. Love this, that was an unlock for me.
Speaker 1:Hearing you say committed Cause I the the feeling that came through when you said that was the conviction feels like so, like rigid, I think, and again necessary.
Speaker 1:And I'm not saying conviction is not what we desire to, to achieve or arrive at in certain areas of our life. Absolutely there's conviction, but in in things like business and just personal development. And you know, looking back on the evolutions I find so many people get, they get stuck in the identities that they adopted, you know, early on in life. And you know, when the world starts to challenge them and I am one of them in this story or this analogy but when, when the world starts to challenge those, those identities, you know we go one of two ways. You know we either triple down on conviction right, you will not change me, you will not make me, you know, feel wrong, or whatever the relationship is, or you commit, and you commit to figuring it out, you commit to exploring, you commit to courage. Um, and I think, as I'm even going through this in my own mind right now, finding where those intersect again later in life is, I think the journey that I would say we're all on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, cause what takes something from commitment to conviction like say more I think evidence and what makes something worthy of committing to same same answer is evidence. But it's like evidence that you see through other people's experience and those who might be more, might have more expertise in a certain area than you, legitimately Right, and that's not like felt, lived experience type evidence. So you can't have conviction until it is felt, lived, experienced. I have evidence that this is my path because I've tried it and it worked for me and I feel that in my body and my mind and all aspects, whereas before that happens you're committing because, well, you've seen something work for other people and this person that you trust is telling you this is the way forward and even though it feels foreign and scary and you don't have the internal evidence, you have the external enough that you can move forward with some level of confidence that at least it's worth a shot move forward with some level of confidence that at least it's worth a shot.
Speaker 1:It's worth a shot. I love that. So I'm going to tie this into to business Cause I find. So I have a belief that it's a couple of things. First, I believe that business, when you start your own, is the greatest vehicle for personal development, and the reason being the reason why I say you know business over you know a relationship or potentially even children. I'm not a father yet, so I'm not going to speak as if, but in the conversations with those who do have children, um, and having been a child myself once, and still to this day sometimes the reason why I say business is because the business can only go as far as its leader.
Speaker 1:Whatever your blocks will be, your business's blocks right, especially at any stage, but I think they definitely show up early on any stage, but I think they definitely show up early on. And the other thing is, I believe that no one chooses a business, no one commits to a business, unless it's something that's personal to them, I like. I think you see, time and time again, people will choose to start something in pursuit of just the monetary reward and know some maybe hit the jackpot, so to speak, or whatever it is, uh, but most never stick with it because it's it the. The motivation isn't deep enough, it's not personal enough, whereas at least the people that I love to work with and I would imagine you're the same it's those who have really been through something, whatever that thing is for them, and because they've been through it, it's become a mission of theirs to help others either avoid or work through that particular thing themselves, and then you figure out how to, like, build the plane around it, right? So that's why I believe that you know this, this starting your own business, is the greatest vehicle to personal development, right? Because if you are committed to seeing that, it becomes something that can genuinely provide you got to go through some shit. It's going to make you face you the whole time Insert panic attack this morning, but that's another conversation.
Speaker 1:Um so uh, you know, what I'm curious to know is you know, tying this into your own business experience? Your quizzes are your jam, right? There's no secret. If anyone just Googles your name, they'll learn that really quickly. And you're absolutely phenomenal, in my opinion, at you know how you like. You're an artist with language, truly, and I've I discovered you, I don't know how many years ago now, but it's been probably longer than I think.
Speaker 1:Um, cause, I discovered you on Amy Porterfield's podcast and that was the first time I'd even heard of quizzes in the world of business and I was like what is this thing Like, tell me more. Uh. So I went down the rabbit hole after listening to that interview and immediately I had this like hell, yes, right. But then I went down the the you know, try to figure it out and it was like, oh no, like this is so much more difficult than I could have ever imagined. So all of this to ask how, like you know, when you started your own business, whatever, like what did it look? Like? How did you come to finding that quizzes were not only successful, but they were your jam? Like what was that evolution between like okay, I'm going to, I got to start something on my own too? Oh shit, quizzes are kind of cool too. Oh wait, I'm going to like do something with this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so interesting how like a conversation will come into your life right when you're sort of grappling with the things that come up in that conversation, cause I've been thinking about a lot of this lately too. It's like, how do you speaking of conviction, how do you write with conviction, how do you communicate with conviction? Because actually conviction speaks volumes, you know, on every level of communication, from just like the words that someone's reading in your email to your videos, to everything that you're putting out there, your offers, all of it and if you don't have that conviction that what you're doing is, you know, connecting on some level to an emotional experience, within that like you can get into the, the feels that that communicate conviction. Um, and without like going on, a total tangent here or do there's this book called power versus force.
Speaker 2:Have you ever have you read that? Okay, it's quite old, but it's really cool. It's based on a lot of research into basically like I'm forgetting the actual word for it, the scientific word for it, but it's like have you heard of muscle testing?
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm not familiar, I'm not an expert on it, so please, so if you like, held out your arm and someone who's a neutral, let's say third party, they ask you a question, yes or no? If it's a no, your arm will go down, if it's a yes, your arm will stay up. It's like really out there and strange, but actually works on levels that we can't even fathom. So power versus force he goes into the resonance of each emotion and even neutrality is above an emotion like anger or fear, right, and then above neutrality is courage and then above that is love.
Speaker 2:And I think when you can like conviction to me is in that realm of of courage and love, and when that's coming through in your message, you create resonance with the right people. But that can't come through if you don't have that emotional connection to whatever the subject matter is right, and so this practice of what do I actually care about and how that helps you in your business is absolutely wild. So I'm with you in this belief that business is the ultimate personal growth tool Because, yeah, it is this very unique path where you have to take uncomfortable action and you have to explore the unknown and you have to come up against your own growth edges in the process and I am totally lost the plot of what the actual initial question was because I got so excited.
Speaker 1:But no, I think that is the plot question was because I got so excited.
Speaker 2:But no, I think that is the plot. So, yeah, the origin, like like, what is the emotional connection with a quiz like where does that come from? And uh. So yeah, I've been thinking about this and trying to get to the heart of why some people are really naturally successful and others it feels like this is such a struggle fest and they're asking this question like why isn't this working? I'm putting all this effort in, I'm writing the copy, I'm producing the podcast and it's not working, versus someone over here where it's like they have like terrible design and things that on the surface don't look that great and yet they're crushing it, and so I think like resonance and conviction sort of play into that are you a coach who has been struggling to do everything yourself?
Speaker 1:I mean all of the content, the emails, the marketing, not to mention, every time you open your phone, there's a new social media strategy that someone is pitching that just makes you feel like you'll never be able to keep up, when all you really care about is helping people in a meaningful way while building the kind of coaching business your family can depend on. I'm Matthew Pates, the founder of Momentum, a growth agency that specializes in helping coaches, just like you, break through your first 100K. If you're a coach who is tired of trying to figure it all out themselves and you just want to build a business that works, then I'm going to encourage you to click the link in our show notes to take your 100K coaching assessment to find out if you're ready to unlock your six-figure potential today.
Speaker 2:And then I looked at my own journey and it's so funny. When I was like 10 years old, I was asking my mom to buy me basically self-help books and exploring all these journal prompts books and exploring all these journal prompts and I was obsessed with quizzes and assessments from a very young age because there was some innate curiosity into like, what can this show me? What can this tell me that I don't already know? So that you know is sort of a part of me, so that you know is sort of a part of me. And as I started building my business, it didn't start with that. I created a food blog.
Speaker 2:That was my first foray into the world of online business and marketing and I had incredibly low self-worth at the time when I started my business, like I was not in a good relationship. I well, when I started, I was pregnant with my first child and then, when things ramped up, he was like a baby. So there was a lot of just newness unfolding and I think, on an identity level, that probably worked to my advantage, because I'm already moving into this new identity of mother and provider. I may as well step into it fully and make this work, but when I first started writing for money. It was recipes and really random articles on health and wellness topics, because my food blog was like kind of centered around that and I got paid very, very little. It was like $50 for a blog post that I would spend 10 hours writing and it would have like 120 citations. Like I was really all in on doing an incredibly good job and yet I had no concept that I could charge a premium for that. And it was.
Speaker 2:It was really years working with my own limitations and ideas around money and what's possible. And you know, I say that evidence inspires commitment, because it was really the evidence that I saw from others who, similar to me, sort of built something from scratch and used their natural gifts and talents to create freedom in their lives that made me think maybe it's possible. Like, if they can do it, why not me? I'll give it a shot, even though I have this mountain of self-doubt and, uh, negative identity patterns over here that could stop me. But I know that other people have those too and they do it anyway, so I'll keep going and and it was like years of that and uh, and the quiz thing was just totally random. Like I was well random, right.
Speaker 2:But I was working with this company and in charge of lead generation, all the way to conversion, all the way to creating their actual programs, and I just thought, oh, maybe a quiz would be fun, like we've never tried that, let's try that. And I did that and and it just crushed. And again, the evidence that this works this has worked better than anything else I've ever tried inspired me to commit to that and give it a shot with other types of clients in other niches and other realms and to just continue exploring that theme. And over time, you know, it just deepened and deepened in the sense of what's possible with this and how much better can it get. And okay, we see that this like buzzfeed quiz over here has gone hella viral, like why is that, what's happening? And so that, like that curiosity sort of continued to weave its way through this one topic that, yeah, I mean I continue to explore and learn new things about, because I think that's just part of who I am.
Speaker 1:I'm just this like really curious person and curious about humans and the human mind, and that's what we're probing at when we create a quiz or an assessment I love this and it brings me back to, like I said you, the conversation room with amy was the one that introduced me to the idea of quizzes and I immediately ran, found a software, started playing with it, and purpose is a big topic that I I love. You know I speak on on purpose quite a bit and you know cause. My belief with purpose is that, one, it's literally an emotional state, not a destination that we find, and two, I believe it stems, I believe purpose is discovered, in our pain, not our passion. And so I bring this up because the first quiz that I created, if I remember correctly, it was, you know, discover your path to purpose, and you know it was me creating it. So, naturally, it was generic as hell and like, had all of these like very topical things, but I was also exploring ads for the first time and I ran. It actually was generic as hell and like, had all of these like very topical things, uh, but I I was also exploring ads for the first time and I ran it and the scariest thing, literally unexpected thing, happened and it terrified me and that's cause it worked, wow, and I bailed.
Speaker 1:It got over 6,000 people to take it and I bailed, I shut it down because I didn't know what to do with them, I didn't know what to do with the attention, and but what it did was now I have conviction, because I'm like, oh, this shit works. But now what do I do? Like I've invited them Everybody it's like you invite everyone over but like you forgot to go grocery shopping. You have no food and they're just sitting there starving, saying, like, what do we do now? Yeah, and so you know, and I bailed for years on this topic and, to be quite honest, I'm just now coming back to it but it's always been that like that love interest that has never left my mind.
Speaker 1:And you know, in our own agency, podcasting and quizzes are the two like pillars. Um, because it's the two things I believe allow you to create authentic conversations and relationships while also creating something that lives online so that you don't have to. Which is that was really the first like, ok, quizzes are the jam. Like I don't know about this posting reels and going viral thing, but like, yeah, give me 10 questions and an answer and I, you got my attention. Um, but to be honest, I just kind of lost where I was going with that. I just oh, I think the scariest thing that can happen to someone is when they find a strategy that actually works.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because what that brings you in contact with. Yeah, so the. I guess one question I have you said something earlier that really stuck out to me was you know how some people crush it, although their stuff doesn't, you know, have the aesthetic or it's not as smooth or whatever that might be, while other people have all the things and yet they still just struggle to to connect or find traction. Yeah, in your experience, do you find that those that focus so much on the perfection of something, the, the, the appearance of it, it doesn't work, because it's almost like they've perfected the soul out of it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, and perfection takes so long. It just takes so freaking long and I'm like absolute perfectionist to a fault. So I'm always actively trying to grapple with this feeling that it's not good enough. It has to meet this like invisible standard over here and it's constant. It never, freaking, goes away, even though I know it's not required and sometimes it's a detriment. It's not required and sometimes it's a detriment, but it's always there and like it's just it's slow to be a perfectionist. Sometimes you're a perfectionist and you create something freaking awesome and people do love it. It's not always the case. I think that like it kills the soul of it, but it certainly can kill the momentum.
Speaker 2:And in this like crazy fast paced world that we're living in? It's? I don't have an answer to this conundrum because I struggle with it myself. It's like do we focus on the quality and getting something to as close to perfection as we can, knowing that it will take way longer, or do we just go and experiment and let it be messy? And I think it's kind of both things like I've really poured my heart and soul into and spent way too long perfecting, but that I'm now like really proud of and I can confidently share it versus there's things that's just like no, we just got to get this out, we just got to see if it even connects, we got to see if there's something there and we've got to build some evidence before aiming for perfection. I think we need the evidence that, like that's the goal.
Speaker 1:But yeah, how have you managed, yeah, how have you managed the experience of, you know, battling the shame which you know. The way that I like to describe shame is it's the not enough emotion, right, like I'm not blank enough. Fill in the blank. We can go crazy with it, right? And the one guarantee to evoke whatever your shame is is putting yourself out there in any meaningful way, whether it's with one person or millions in some cases.
Speaker 1:So, being someone that is obviously intimately aware with what that experience is like. How have you navigated those, especially early in your career? Because, for anyone that hasn't discovered you yet, you've worked with arguably some of the most iconic names in the marketing space or online business and that kind of thing, and some really know some really amazing people and that are doing really amazing things in the world. So when working, you know when your work is going to be experienced by so many. Right, how do you navigate that Like, oh my God, is this enough? Oh my God, is this? You know, because not only is it your work, but your work now is representing someone else that obviously that adds a whole nother elephant Screw, a layer. It's just you know that could be massive forward, despite those you know potential fears of if it not working out the way that you and you know your, your collaborators want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, have you heard of the book existential kink? Okay, by the way, my favorite thing in the world is book recommendations.
Speaker 2:And you've now given two that I've not, if I could turn my books around me. So me too, I've got keep going for days existential kink. The author is carolyn lowell. I might be messing up that last name, but she talks about how the like so-called negative emotions that we experience like our shadow right that there's some part of us that actually wants that experience because in some way it benefits us.
Speaker 2:And I have looked at this a lot through the lens of all the shame and doubt, and you know all the emotions that come up when you are putting yourself out there or when it's a high stakes situation and you're representing someone else's voice and it needs to be as close to perfect as it can possibly be. You know, when people are paying a lot of money, they have high expectations, and so there is a lot of pressure and a range of what we could call negative emotions that come with that. And yet on some level I can recognize that they have served me and they're not necessary to achieve the required result. But in the past, when I have felt that pressure to look over it again, make it better. Get feedback from this other person who I respect and trust. You know, look at it from all angles. What am I not seeing? Like just the whole idea of going above and beyond what most people would do, I think actually served me in my early years of writing copy for big names and having a lot, of, a lot of pressure to make it work and be successful.
Speaker 2:And and today, now that I've, like, integrated those, those shadow elements, I can do those things. I can ask for help and get another pair of eyes and have a really high attention to detail and not have shame and fear around those actions. The actions don't change, but the energy does. And yet could I have done, would I have done those things in the beginning, if I didn't feel that anxiety and that desire to make it perfect? I don't know Like. I actually am kind of grateful on some level that I did feel those things. And you know my own dysregulated nervous system when I was 23 years old and starting out was a whole slew of chaos with almost any action, like even making a little post on Facebook, because it was just Facebook back in the day. It wasn't even Instagram like big and scary right. And with time and practice and integration. Now you know it's all good, but yeah.
Speaker 1:I love this and so I've. I want to be mindful of our time here and I have a couple more questions. If that's okay, yeah, perfect, and you can say no, by the way, but I want to connect some dots, and one thing that I was committed to achieving in our conversation today was, you know, I view your story as a prime example of what it looks like to live life on your terms. Looks like to live life on your terms, right, and I'm not intimately aware of your entire story, but when I came across your work, and even when I was researching it, going into this today, it resonates so deeply with what I'm evolving into, which looks like life on my terms, and so I really see, you know, what you've created as like kind of that North star in a lot of different ways, and that's not even talking about, like the money and the results, and we've not even discussed, like, how wildly successful your work has been and people and all the things, and, to be honest, like amazing, but this is actually the stuff that I care most about, right.
Speaker 1:So, but with that being said, I am, I'm curious about two things, so I'll start with, first, the word evidence, and this is something that's come up now a couple of times Commitment, conviction, evidence, right, it's been a through line, and then you were just talking about. You reached a place in your experience, and this is where I'm asking, because this is where I'm at now. This has been a huge shift that's happened for me in the last I would I mean it feels like few weeks, but potentially the last few months which is, the relationship to feedback has evolved. So I'm curious for you when? When did feedback shift from evidence of failing or not being good enough to feedback became evidence of succeeding and growing? And you're on the right path.
Speaker 2:Right, and do you have a qualifier in front of that feedback? Would you call it good feedback, bad feedback or just feedback in general?
Speaker 1:Good feedback, bad feedback or just feedback in general.
Speaker 2:Difficult the kind of feedback that makes you defensive Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that feedback that triggers the shame that I'm, you know, one of my biggest. So my biggest shame story is that I'm not smart enough. And again, I'm familiar with where the root comes from, which is why I probably have for 200 and something books around me that I've read actually the majority of, because I've been so obsessed with becoming smart. But I share that, because the face of I'm a terrible writer and I know this is like just stop saying that and you get better which is true, I also it. It terrifies me.
Speaker 1:I do not do well with grammar, something my mother used to make fun of me for, like you know, I'd say something she's like okay, but can you spell it? I was like fuck off. And my mother and I spoke candidly, so that was something that she would, you know, she would be okay with. But, with that being said, I would be terrified to write because I knew that the moment someone was like, oh, that's a misspelled or oh, that, why is there a comma there? I'd be like what's a comma? Like literally. And then so I received that as like oh, I'm not getting better. It's proof that I'm actually not good. Yeah, not getting better. It's proof that I'm actually not good, yeah Right. So that kind of feedback that makes someone defensive or reactive versus reflective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, two things come up for me. You said that to you purpose is a state.
Speaker 1:Emotional state yeah.
Speaker 2:An emotional state. Yeah, it's not like a destination.
Speaker 1:It's not something you find.
Speaker 2:Reach and attain and have and hold for the rest of your days. And, like I would say the same thing about the relationship to difficult feedback, about the relationship to difficult feedback and the perception of am I going to make this mean something and tell myself a whole story around it that limits me and makes me stop what I'm doing, or am I going to make it mean something else and make it mean that I'm actually? This is evidence that I'm trying and I'm learning and I'm growing and it's going to help me keep going. And I think it's normal to vacillate between those two states.
Speaker 2:I don't know that when I get difficult feedback, like I'll get like random trolly replies to my email. I'm not like super big or active on social media, so I don't get it on social media, but I definitely have a fear of it on social media because people can be just like so intense and angry. But for some reason, email has always felt like a safer space for me. But I still get people sometimes responding to my emails saying hurtful things and it's not like it doesn't ever not hurt, it doesn't ever not trigger this, and I have the exact same limiting belief as you that I'm not smart enough like it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's deep and well, you're pretty damn smart from my perspective so are you.
Speaker 2:So are you? But it doesn't matter, right? It's like these deep-seated, it's like the child within us that you know, the adult, the present moment, us is in the driver's seat. Maybe that's when it shifts, is when that isn't when we're most of the time in the driver's seat, but we're never all the time in the driver's seat.
Speaker 2:Like, like little us will will try to take the wheel when you get that tantrums like they'll throw a tantrum and then but it's like, can we grab it back and change that story around and continue to move forward? So I don't think it's a destination, um, but and then the other thing that came up for me was a big shift for me was understanding negativity, bias and how, how we're wired as humans to emphasize the negative so much, so heavily, like one negative interaction will, for many people, counteract a hundred positive. For many people counteract 100 positive interactions. Or you know, 100 kind email replies are just wiped out the minute someone tells me they think what I just sent them is a pile of shit. So, and it's like it's a protective mechanism, because we don't want to get kicked out of the tribe- Right.
Speaker 2:And so coming back like I think there is a lot of nervous system integration, it's everything they're like coming back to balance and stasis and processing our trauma and getting to know that little person within us. And then, over time, it's like can I come back from it a little bit faster than I would have in the past? Sure, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:I speak on quite a bit Again. My backstory is, you know, trauma and and what I learned is it's more important to learn. Well, actually, may I just pose this little question, all right? So, in your opinion, which and I'm going to use the word successful, just take it for whatever that means to you. Right? But in your opinion, what is a more powerful strategy of success? Is it to appear more perfect or learn how to recover more quickly?
Speaker 2:absolutely recover more quickly and why and your experience.
Speaker 1:Why is that more important?
Speaker 2:well appearing more perfect, like it doesn't matter if you don't feel that perfection and by perfection I don't mean necessarily just the surface level, like what other people are seeing looks perfect. It's like feeling the perfection of imperfection, of just being a human and knowing that we're all going through it, and and having that grace and compassion for yourself and and then in turn for everybody else. So coming back from it like that to me is reminding yourself of your own perfection and everyone else's.
Speaker 1:That's the skill I believe in most is, you know, if we could all just learn how to recover a little, you know, a little faster, a little more quickly, that's that's when your life begins to change, right?
Speaker 1:You know, when you find yourself hijacked, you know, may have sent you off the rails for three days, well, now it only takes two, then one, and then so on and so forth, and eventually you feel that reactive response and you're able to catch it before you do something with it, right, yeah, and that's the game I've found, yeah, and I love that. So one last question, and I know, again, you need to go a little question, and then I want a reflection that I'd like to share. So the question is I believe in collaboration, right? So so I conversations over content, you know, collaboration over competition, all that stuff. I truly believe in that. And you know, and you know, if you're speaking to someone who is just getting started battling a lot of those, you know inevitable trials and tribulations and let's assume they've got they, they, they're pretty clear on who they are, right.
Speaker 2:They know who they are. They have a vision.
Speaker 1:But all of the well, what the hell do I do? How do I get there? I'm in these circumstances. I don't know these people yet, but all the stuff, how, in your experience, when you were coming up like who was the one person that you collabed with, whatever that means, that really kind of opened the doors for what has become your career today.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, to this day, a big proponent of having a coach or a mentor or support on some level from someone who is like a few steps ahead of you, and I like that a few steps ahead of you, caveat, because when people are too far ahead of us, it feels out of reach, it's hard to relate, there's like a bigger gap to cross, whereas when someone's just like they've been where you are, but there are a few steps ahead and they figured some stuff out that you're trying to figure out, that is a game changer.
Speaker 2:So when I decided, okay, I am going to leave this company that I'm working for, where I tried the quiz and it worked really well, that I'm going to go out on my own, and I had already previously, like quote, unquote, failed at freelance writing and it, you know, there was like wounds there. But I'm'm gonna try again, I'm gonna dust myself off and I the first thing I did was I joined this mentorship program with two copywriters who I really look up, looked up to, I look up to them today too, and it was a scary investment and I was not certain whatsoever, but something I had a coach tell me once was you don't have to believe it, you get to borrow my belief.
Speaker 2:That's why you're working with me and it's powerful when you can borrow someone else's belief, and that's really what I did. They believed in me so hard that it inspired me to keep going and they were, you know, generous in the sense that the community was super connected, like we went beyond surface level there a it was a program, so there was other people in the community and the coaches and mentors were like constantly making connections and introducing people and really like cared, and that, I think, made all the difference and taught me the power of one positive relationship and that's like a massive ripple effect occurred because of that decision and those people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love the word care right because of that decision and those people. Yeah, I love the word care right. If we could all learn how to scale more caring then we, if we spend as much time trying to learn how to scale caring as we do. Content.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, totally, I love yeah. Well right and it's like it feels sometimes like it's at a deficit and like that's sometimes like it's at a deficit and like that's really hard to find. And you know, I I don't know if it is or it isn't, I tend to run into it a lot. It's like I feel like people care more than sometimes are. Like little angry teenager voice within tells us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate all that you shared, most importantly your time. And one last thing I'm going to kind of leave as a parting word is a reflection from this conversation, and I've been thinking about this since. You mentioned it in the very beginning, but you were talking about how gifted and skilled your husband is at building things and creating things and fixing things, and you specifically mentioned the barn project that you have undertaken and, if I'm not mistaken, it's it's an older barn that you guys are kind of bringing back to life with purpose and attention. Now that you got this little, this little nugget, as my fiance and I would call it the baby cow. Everything is a chicken to us, by the way, we call everything a little chicken, um, so you got this little chicken that happens to be a cow and, uh, the thing that I've recognized in this conversation is that I believe you and him have the exact same gift right.
Speaker 1:What he may be doing with this barn, I believe, is what you do with people's vision and their past. Like you take, you're able to take and understand deeply. You know the broken barn part of their life. You know the doubts, the shames, the uncertainties, the maybe even the convictions to the wrong things. Who knows what that might be? And through just even an hour with you today and, and you know, I realized very quickly, like how just gifted you are, natural it comes to you to to allow that space to exist. And then you start to, you know, rebuild them, you know, and their future, you know, by whatever skill, whatever craft, whatever tools you may find. So, yeah, I would say that you two are exactly the same and have the exact same gifts. So thank you for what you do and for what he does. Thank you.
Speaker 2:I will let him know that you said that, absolutely. I'll tell you his reaction. He'll probably laugh and make fun of me for not being able to tell what a right angle is.
Speaker 1:That's fair, thank you. He does write in angles, you do? You know daddy issues and copywriting?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're all the same he has to write a hard email to someone. You better believe I'm writing it.
Speaker 1:Right, you bring out the soul, like I got this one. I love it. Well, shanti, thank you so much. I appreciate you and I look forward to continuing to uh, to follow in your footsteps. Uh, if even you know from afar and um, yeah, thank you for living life and having the courage to do it your way.
Speaker 2:Thank you, appreciate you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you.