Waves with Wireless Nerd
Join me for a weekly look into what's making waves in tech and the wireless industry! What's new? What's now? What's next?
Waves with Wireless Nerd
Celebrating a Decade of WLPC: The Convergence of Wi-Fi Innovation, AI-Driven Networking, and the Impact of Unconference Learning
Join the wireless community's finest Podcasts – Waves, Clear to Send, and Cisco Unplugged Connectivity - as well as special guests Manon Lessard, Stephen Rodriguez, Rowell Dionicio, Francois Verges, Payman Samadi, Lance Romigh and Keith Parsons – as we celebrate with me, Drew Lentz the WirelessNerd, a decade of the Wireless LAN Professionals Conference better known as WLPC! We share both the evolution of this incredible event and our own narratives woven into the fabric of the wireless industry. This episode is a treasure trove of insights, from the buzz on Wi-Fi 7 and 8 to the candid discussions on the challenges and triumphs of our industry and where itt's headed. As we reminisce about the conference's journey, you'll feel the palpable passion for innovation and networking practices that defines our tight-knit tribe.
Ever wondered how astrophysics could intersect with wireless technology? We speak to Eino and dig in to the curious twist in our industry from an outside perspective and take you on a deep dive into the world of AI-driven network planning. This powerful tool could reshape network building while provoking healthy debates on AI's role versus human expertise. Curios how Network-as-a-Service from companies like Meter will impact out industry? We get to the bottom of it!The episode highlights the unique 'unconference' vibe of WLPC, where genuine interactions trump marketing, and the founder's commitment to sharing knowledge and fostering inclusivity comes to the fore.
Wrapping up, we transport you to future of the ever-evolving conference, including possible updates on boot camps and workshops, where the learning never stops and every voice finds a platform. From the rise of new European event locations to embracing the diversity in the attendees and our industry, to the inclusive movements of our friends in Mexico, Central and South America, you're invited to partake in the global expansion of our wireless family. And for a dose of laughter, discover how double-speed podcast listening can offer a hilarious perspective on the industry. Connect with us through our stories, and perhaps we'll share a meal at the next WLPC event or somewhere across the globe in Prague, Spain, or Mexico.
Well, hi, we're having a good time. We're sitting on the stage. We've got a bunch of us are here, Waves. We've had such a great run and we knew we were going to be live. We just didn't know when we were going to do it. We didn't know who was going to be here to participate. But here we are, so I'm going to let you all introduce yourself. We're going to work across the stage here. Who are you and why are you sitting beside me? You're going to need that mic real quick.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. My name is Manon Le Sartre. I am a member of CX. I am a CSS wireless for Cisco. I've been coming to WLPC for nine years. I missed only the first one.
Speaker 1:Oh man yeah.
Speaker 2:I've been running around trying to help Matthew and Keith and Tony and Sam to run this conference.
Speaker 1:Good, what's fun. It's been a fun 10 years yeah, that's something to mention. This is a 10 year anniversary of WLPC, so it's definitely more people, I think, than we've ever had. And who's this guy?
Speaker 3:Hey, I'm Steve Rodriguez. On most social media platforms you'll find me as a at Wi-Fi janitor. I'm a technical marketing engineer for Meraki, covering assurance and some of the wireless product lines. I'm here because I love to hear myself talk and speak about wireless, and Drew hasn't learned not to give me a mic yet, so one day he might learn that lesson, but I highly doubt it. Yeah right, who are you?
Speaker 4:dude. My name is Raul Dionicio. I'm CWN number 210, co-host of the Clear Sand podcast, and I do a lot of higher education, wi-fi and some consulting.
Speaker 1:Cool. And then you brought your partner with you, the partner in crime.
Speaker 5:Yes, so I'm Francois Verges. I'm also CWNE 180. I bit you by a little bit. I'm also a co-host of the Clear Sand podcast. I've been helping Raul with the podcast for a few years now, and also the Wi-Fi. I've been coming to the conference for not as long as Manon, but probably like six years now, and it's always a pleasure to be here. Talk Wi-Fi.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, this is a little bit more of a professional setup, I think. When we did this in Prague, I grabbed a camera and some microphones and we sat down at the bar and we just interviewed people as they walked in, and it was a little bit noisy, but we had some really interesting conversations. So, in the spirit of that, what I'd like to do is just you know, let's dig into it, let's dig into the show. We've all, you know, we've been coming here for a couple years. We've seen it change, it's grown. I think this is the largest audience that we've ever had. I'm looking at Keith Parsons, who's sitting behind. We'll bring you up here in just a second Largest audience.
Speaker 1:10-year anniversary, Steve, with you. Man, what did you see this year? I mean, what are your big takeaways from the first two days? I mean, is there anything that you've seen, where you've been like? And look, I'm not. I'm going to be totally real. There's some topics I do want to touch on that you know I could probably get in trouble for in the right circles, but I do want to bring them in. So what do you think? I mean, what are your takeaways so far from the show?
Speaker 3:Other than just, like the community and like everywhere we are at right. If you're Ruckus, if you're Aruba, cisco, maraki, insert vendor here, here you're not that. You're a wireless engineer and all we have is love for wireless and a passion, and that's what makes us great and that's what allows us to have people come up and talk about Wi-Fi 7 and how things are going to happen, with preamble puncturing how we're going to have things with Wi-Fi 8. We're going to have coordinated AP so you can, as Drew said in his presentation, start on that AP and get it back on that AP as you're roaming, like things like this that are new and exciting.
Speaker 1:That are coming out and it's not just talking about it, right, I mean one of the. I walked in and the first thing I saw is a bunch of nerds sitting around looking at MLO actually running on a ubiquity access point, and there was like every vendor standing in there figuring out how can I help you test this?
Speaker 3:And that was. That was pretty cool. Oh yeah, I mean sitting there trying to figure out how are we going to get the best speed out of this and Drew had to break out his handy little nifty tool to get the two and a half gig connectivity to the AP and the switch that we could have the bandwidth that MLO would work. Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:It was an interesting problem to have. We couldn't find the switch port fast enough to handle the 2.8 gig that the wireless had negotiated. What I mean presentation wise God, I mean it's great presentations. Any takeaways from you on some of these presentations?
Speaker 3:I really honestly like I did miss some of them because I had a little bit of a passion project running, but one of like Wes purposes, where he talked about like it was his third year talking, wi-fi six and my six and the adoption rate we've seen over the last three years just ends Wi-Fi six and then the transition from WPA to WPA three to be more secure. How that has flown, how does flowed whether? And that's both having the APs, having the clients and having the people willing to turn those new features on.
Speaker 1:So that's what I was going to ask. I think one of the funniest moments is Wes looks out to Crowdy, says how many of y'all have Wi-Fi? Six, or you know six, gigahertz capable APs Everyone raises their hands.
Speaker 3:About 40% raise their hands. And the next question how many of them have actually have six gigahertz or are dual five and don't have six giga enabled? And like 50% went up and it was pretty funny it was Well cool.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll pass the mic over here, Ms Manon. What about you? I mean, you've been around WOPC for a while. What did you see this year? Anything new and exciting.
Speaker 2:I absolutely love that we started with JJ and her perspective. That's just a little bit different because at the end of the day, we're all wireless engineers when we come here, but we all have different perspectives and the various present presentations and given, like how Keith says it, by the people, for the people we all have different perspectives and you hear about that and it allows you to consider a problem or a situation in a different light.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does. And I think one of the things of one of my takeaways on it was I'm used to the first session of I forgot why I said earlier Peter McKenzie murdering us all with information bullets, like he, just like he just comes in hard and it's like, ah, fire hose of information. I feel like this year was a little softer. Jj rolled out and was just like like, hey, let me, let me look at it from a different perspective, let me bring a new light into this. And it wasn't that just that hard start that we always have to WOPC. That was saved for today with Tom Carpenter. I think Tom Carpenter really gave that moment where everyone was like, oh my God, this is what I'm doing here. You know, everyone's like zoned in, like, oh, here we go.
Speaker 2:And every year there's a moment like that which pushes our boundaries and our understanding of wireless. I remember the face of everybody and the fact that we almost had to pass around the Advils and the Tylenol after the end of the talk by Chuck Lukowiski about about BSS collaring and how. Ax was going to work and I can still feel like the atmosphere was electric.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll give you a chance to ask these two some questions. It's on you, bro, it's on me All right.
Speaker 4:Well, outside of the presentations, I find that conversations with people are actually the most valuable I get out of coming to WOPC. What has been like a really good conversation that's stuck to you so far.
Speaker 1:It's a good one.
Speaker 2:I've been running around so much and had so many conversations, but I've been very interested in the security aspects as of late and conversations with JJ, conversations with Phil Morgan in his deep dive and how I'm trying to think of one single thing I can tell you, but among other things, wp83, which in my past life, before I moved to Cisco, was a very big consideration, granted that I was working in IR, ed and we have all sorts of considerations with Etro, so that was one significant conversation. But otherwise, on top of my head, the opportunity for networking is just amazing. So there are so many that I could think of that I'm having a hard time just thinking, singling one out.
Speaker 5:I have an idea, manon, so maybe I'll answer Roel's question. One thing also that I find interesting with WOPC is that you can relate to what the other people are saying really fast. You don't need to explain, we have the same vocabulary and everything. So I was talking to Charles from Australia and I haven't seen him in like five years, but in like two sentences, which is connected on a project that he's doing I'm going to be doing soon. So I was like bang, bang, bang and we got deep into the conversation how do you do things and how do you do this? And it's one thing that we don't really have at work. When we go back home, like even with some people that work with us, like what are you?
Speaker 1:talking about. You're from a different world, man.
Speaker 5:But here in two seconds we would sound the same level going deep. So that's also something I appreciate about WOPC is you can just right away have really meaningful conversation about what you do with other people that do the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great, and speaking of. Before you do that, let me queue up another person here. Let's kick Steve off the stage. Let's get. Who do we want to bring on here? I want to bring on Paymon real quick to the stage. If you don't mind me giving you the booth, no worries man.
Speaker 3:Thank you. You know you started in a bar last week. I'm going to go finish in the bar Go.
Speaker 1:I'll meet you there. Man, I'll meet you there, Go ahead.
Speaker 2:I was going to keep going with François's point. You know, when you come to WOPC you're not either wear all weirdos that love wireless or we're just for once, we're just normal. And you know like we're going to pop open the, the, the wire shark or what have you and look at deep, deep down. You know what's what's there and what's the protocol doing and why is it doing that? And that is the one thing that is amazing here is, you know, we, we get to play with our toys and and and experiment and and prove whatever we can read and guides.
Speaker 2:And you know I'm I'm, I keep thinking back to dual fives from way back we started testing how it would all work out and if it would affect the transmission speeds to have dual five gigs. And so many tests throughout the years that we've done here and and you know, as, as Steve said, you know the the vendors getting together and trying to work out how everything works. It's just amazing.
Speaker 1:And on that note, talking about talking about new stuff and talking about seeing things work and so on and so forth. Paymon, dude, just like you know what, I'm going to ask you what the hell are you doing here? You know what I mean. Like I, a mutual friend of ours introduced me to you like a year and a half ago and said you need to talk to this person, and it took me a year to get in touch with you. I feel like, and finally, when you told me what you're doing, I was blown away and then he said, yeah, I'll be a WLPC. And I said, yes, I was going to tell you to come to WLPC anyway. Dude, who are you? What are you doing? And, more important, like, why are you doing that? And what's great about this is you're doing something traditionally that hasn't been looked at, something that hasn't been done in the way that you're doing that. Is that fair to say?
Speaker 8:Yeah well, hi everyone, thanks for having me so. Interestingly, me and my co-founder, jt, are one of our first jobs. We were land managers for a company and that was in a year like 2000, which was only two, three years after wireless was there and kind of stopped that job and we went to grad school and he studied astrophysics, I studied photonics and we're kind of involved with data.
Speaker 1:You're totally bored in school is what you're saying. You're like we're going to go for the easy classes and you know, got involved in optical telecommunication, networking.
Speaker 8:But what was very fascinating was the whole concept of connectivity, because that's how we all kind of get together and we wanted to kind of contribute to that. And the reality is that wireless is now the main mean, everything, everyone is connected through wireless. And you know, as nerds and scientists we were very interested in data, machine learning, ai, and seven, eight years ago we realized it's been used everywhere but not much in networking. And we say why? Let's try to find ways that it could be helpful. And that's why, you know, we originally got to this field and specifically not in the wireless side.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what is it that you do? I mean, it's what's the what? What makes you different than Eqahau and Hamina and NetAla and Cidos? And like, why, why you, what? What's the space that you're trying to look into?
Speaker 8:Sure. So you know, as an entrepreneur, they say you build a product for your customers. So before building things, we start talking to a lot of solution architects, a lot of network engineers. We talked to, you know, over hundreds of them and we realized they seek gaps and they would like to see innovation. They gave us the ideas and you know they explained that, this process that you want to build a network from the pre-sales activity, coding, all the way to the design, when you go to the deployment and then you know verification, you know the management.
Speaker 8:There are a lot of places that first are manual works that are happening there, that they don't like to do it. They like to see automation. They see a lot of areas there that you know. They like to get the recommendation. They have some sort of knowledge base there that learns from the best practices and tells them oh, that's, you know the best practices, that's being done now and that's why we came up with this idea of an AI assistant network planner. So when you go to this process at every step, first you could get automation and second you could get some recommendations. So the same way you go on.
Speaker 8:You know these chatbots that you ask questions and they provide it for you. You could say you know I have this project, this is my layout, parse it for me, it parses it for you. It might not be perfect but you know it does part of the job for you. Say, okay, I'm designing for a conference and I'm, you know that's my use case. Can you recommend what is the type of user densities, the type of clients you know does it for you? And say, okay, this is the requirements. I want to have minimum signer, rssi, all other requirements, and you know, design this for me and see how it is and you know all the way to the testing. Say, what if I have 20% more people? What if in this room certain activity happens? What if I want to introduce a digital experience and at the end we have this digital twin of the area of the end users and of the network, so we could use it for the management and maintenance of the network.
Speaker 1:Got it, so I'm going to pass over to you guys. I know you've used. No, you got. You. Keep the mic. They've got one over there. I know you guys have used every tool under the sun. What I mean does anything about what he's talking about, and the reason I went to showcase Paymon right is because this is a new tool that is a little bit different to here. So my follow up question after you're done is is you start thinking about what is it that this conference brought to you, and has that changed any of the way, now that you've got a test case in front of you? So any questions for him on what he's doing.
Speaker 5:What I was going to say is you know the tool that we use. Sometimes they impact our workflows. You know like you would do something a special way, and then this new tool comes and you're like, okay, I need to take advantage of these tools. So let me rethink my workflow and see how I can integrate that tool to be more efficient. His product sounds like it's you know, one of these tools that will kind of shift. You know the way we do things, the way we interact with the customers, so I would have to see it more in details, I guess, to you know, to kind of see how that can impact. You know the way we do things, but I think in general, you know. Looking at that earlier you asked about the presentation at WPC One thing that I've noted is that we're seeing more and more tools and companies coming up with solutions around what we do and coming here and presenting different things, which I think is nice.
Speaker 5:It brings some innovation into space. It means Wi-Fi is important. We already knew this, but other people think Wi-Fi is important and I think the technology with the cloud technologies, the APIs and everything it's mature enough today so we can actually start doing integrations. And maybe you know, eno is like one tool that we use and that integrates with, you know, maybe the vendor tools or something else, and it would be interesting to see how we can bring that, because you know, payment mentioned AI networking. Yeah, ai networking we haven't really, and we're very protective of our designs. You know, we've all designed Wi-Fi. Of course, they sort of move our AP one meter. It's like wow, he loses your mind. So I wonder how we can also evolve with the AI as an industry and as Wi-Fi engineers. And see, you know, I don't have these answers. Payment, you talk to a lot of people. What do people think about when you talk to Wi-Fi engineers? What do they think about bringing AI into there? Or, you know, letting the cloud decide where the APs go?
Speaker 8:Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I think all the engineers, they would like to see their problem solved. They would like to see when they do a design they don't need to go back there, if they could avoid site surveys and, you know, save them money, why not? So I think they all have this interest to see if these new technologies could, you know, bring those new features and solve those problems for them. But it needs to be proven and then they you know they all accept, but definitely I've seen everyone's open to share ideas and say where they would like to see innovation and I think our job as an entrepreneur is okay. They would like to see the change they have. They know what they want and how we could use AI, how we could use machine learning to solve it. And, to be honest, many times you have the simplest algorithm in the world that solves the problem. Who cares? As long as it solves the problem, that's good enough.
Speaker 1:So on that, what I you know interesting. You talk about bringing data in and using data to help solve those problems. We had the CEO of Ucla show up and he showed up on the stage and, in so many words, took accountability for the elephant in the room that's been affecting a lot of EkaHow customers. I myself, I'm an EkaHow partner, I'm EkaHow certified, I'm an EkaHow user and I've been treated terribly over the last couple of years and I don't mind saying it because everybody's saying it.
Speaker 1:So to have the CEO walk in and stand up on stage and and and say, hey, I'm here for the industry, to me it was a great sign. Was it enough? I don't know. I don't know if you want to voice your opinion on it or not, but for me it was interesting because I thought it didn't go unnoticed that he was here and I understood what he was trying to say. But I've talked to people who are like, yeah, it's great that he's here, but does that really change anything? And I think it does. I mean, there's been some shakeups over there, some movements and stuff, and you're definitely already seeing a new face on that company.
Speaker 1:And so then he started to talk about integrating different products and different services and things that are that he's bringing in, from all their different properties, the speed test and whatnot. I think that you know. Based on that, based on some of the conversations that you saw, was there anything that you saw here that has changed your perspective on the industry? Did you have you learned anything? You know what I mean. Because this is a do you like this? Because this is a hell of a test case. I mean, this is like this is. This is a good pool of people. If they don't like you in this room, the chances of your product being viable are not going to be very large, I would imagine.
Speaker 8:That's very true. Yeah, I mean one side. I you know it's true that I went. I've not been to wireless world but I've been in many technical conferences. That it's very refreshing to see in a conference. This morning they were talking about or FDMA. You know, in detail I'm like huh, you know I did optical or FDMA and now I do talking about wireless Can.
Speaker 1:I speak your language I can connect to people here.
Speaker 8:I was in different fields where I'm able to connect and one thing about this community is my first time Everyone's super open. I emailed and messaged, called these two guys and many more before coming here and they all answered me. They were all willing to meet.
Speaker 1:It only took me a year.
Speaker 8:Yeah, and they were very open to share and tell me, you know, what they want and what they like to see. So it was a great learning experience for us to understand what our product really needs to do and what they like to see. And, in terms of data, one thing that we believe in is that you need to have free imports and exports of data from different platforms. So absolutely yeah, so everyone could basically use the tool the way they want, and then so.
Speaker 1:So I'll put to put you on the spot. Then UC came up from Hamina and he had his Kanye moment. You know he's like I'm going to let you finish, but I think everyone should adopt open intent as a tool set provider. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 8:Certainly we are attending the meeting. Since we learned about it, I made with Jake and JHRCT going every other week and we definitely have that on our product roadmap and, yeah, we were definitely open to it and love the idea.
Speaker 1:Awesome, may. Do you have any questions? No, no, I find it very. You grab that microphone there. So while you're talking, I'm going to swap you out. We're going to bring Lance on real quick. Unless, keith, you want to jump on real quick, let's bring Lance on and continue the conversation. Thanks, man.
Speaker 2:This point of view is very refreshing and I hope that we welcomed you and to our community and that you felt the love of the wireless geeks for their tools and for sharing the knowledge. I'm going to cite Keith once again. He says that knowledge is how do you say it? Knowledge is like manure. So the more you spread it, the more things grow. Things grow yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, speaking of knowledge, lance dude, I didn't even realize you were where you are. And you came up to me and you're like you totally mentioned my company and your presentation. I was like I don't know who you worked for that was pretty cool.
Speaker 9:I was like, oh yeah, by the way, I never told you about that, yeah.
Speaker 1:So okay. So the trend here right that I'm seeing and thanks for going along on the ride with me on this one is we bring in, You've got outside influence in our industry. You've got Paymon doing what he's doing and looking at it in a more holistic way and looking at it as a workflow way. I'm not saying the robots are going to replace us, but my presentation was kind of like the robots are going to replace us in some way, shape or form. So in my opinion, we need to think differently about the way that we're doing our jobs. You work for a company that's basically saying don't worry about doing your jobs, I'll do some of that for you and I'll do some of the heavy lifting. Who do you work for and what do you do?
Speaker 9:Yeah, absolutely Well. First of all, thank you for not making me follow, keith, so I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:He looks like he's either asleep or enjoying the conversation. I'm not sure which one it is. It may be a little bit of both.
Speaker 9:Yeah, so my name is Lance Romay. I'm CWD number 367. This is my fifth time here, so, yeah, I love it. I work for a company called Meter. We're a networking as a service company. What does that mean? Yeah, tell me what that means, dawson, excellent question. So, with you know, it team is getting smaller, expecting to do more. There's just so much that people are expected to do. We think of ourselves as a it's right in the name, it's meter. We think of ourselves as utility and that's what we want to do. That's what we want to accomplish. We want to have Wi-Fi, have networking, be a standard utility that just works. You go into a facility, you go into a place as a new owner of a building or a tenant and instead of having to deal with hassle of getting things set up and dealing with you know, 6,000 vendors, you just, it just works. We do everything from ISP procurement to build their own hardware. We install it, we maintain it and support it and we refresh your, your product as new technology comes out, and it's a good thing.
Speaker 1:you guys haven't raised any money and you don't have any high level investors. You know, I just saw this blurb the other day. I mean, who was it that just gave that? Just came by and said hi to you guys? This is fascinating. Do you guys know this?
Speaker 7:No, I don't know. This is great One of their investors.
Speaker 9:This is this? This is cool. We just got a series of funding from Sam Altman's Wow.
Speaker 1:He doesn't know anything about AI.
Speaker 9:But yeah, it's, it was kind of surreal. You know, I was not even aware of the details until it happened, so it was, it was pretty awesome. So it's it's a nice, excellent opportunity and really looking forward to everything that's going to bring and I think in my mind that validates it a little bit.
Speaker 1:You know it's, and Niall was here last year, I didn't. I did not see them this year. I don't know if they're here in Incognito, but there's some people creeping around this show. Fyi, I saw the guys from Shasta and they were sitting at the barbecue joint and having drinks with some pretty influential customers, which was hilarious to see. So there are definitely some people that are here that are flying under the radar. I even got some of their stickers.
Speaker 1:But you know, from the perspective of, of of what you all are doing site surveys, all these other things that AI can solve I mean how? First off, what makes you different than a managed service provider that I can go to today and say, hey, here's money every month, solve all my problems, and the MSP does that for me. What makes you guys different there? And then, two, why would someone want to use your service if they've spent their whole life learning and getting their CW and E's and becoming certified? And you know, it sounds like you're coming in and you guys say, hey, this is a network of service. What happens to those, to those fine folks? Yeah, well, that's an excellent question.
Speaker 9:I mean, I, I personally believe there's always going to be room for site surveys. There's always going to be room for, you know, cw and E's while I'm just wireless professionals to come into a space to do that kind of work. You know what we do is is an alternate to that. You know we, you know we work with organizations that may not have the facility or the the means to do something like that or or, you know, want to go down a different path. So you know it's not. I don't think of it as an alternate to that, I think it's. I don't think it as a replacement to that. I think it was kind of an alternate solution.
Speaker 1:So, okay, cool, I'll let it pass the mic to you guys. What?
Speaker 4:Yeah, because I had a conversation with you guys the first day, right, we were talking about taking a look at it and seeing you know how we could integrate it into what we do, right, and, like, like what you were saying, I also put on many hats, so as, as we have a podcast, we got to think about the listeners, the viewers and and of course, that is the the big question with anything as a service is what happens to me, what happens to the engineer, the administrator? Am I out of a job? Right, and, and I think to an extent there will be people that will lose their jobs. We'll probably see much more leaner teams, probably focused on other areas, other projects that are a lot more meaningful, rather than spending people to have spend their time working on issues like networking, wi-fi, if, if AI does have this continued powerful, rolling trend here that fixes a lot of issues which it has fixed for other industries we'll see it soon with networking and, and, in my point of view, it's more about now trying to find other opportunities that come in the shadow of that right, as things start to change. What other opportunities can you see there and then take advantage of that and and pivot Like we'll, we'll all have to pivot in some way.
Speaker 4:Like Francois here does a lot of scripting and Python work and there are a lot of people in networking that are saying we don't need to do that, while you have another group saying it's a must right, you need to have it. But then you look at network as a service is like you don't need to do any of that stuff, you don't need it. What do you need it for? What do I do now? Ai can't run cabling, so I guess that's what I'm going to do. Wireless, bro, wireless.
Speaker 9:I mean I work with a lot of wireless engineers and where we put our product into their environment and, frankly, it does free them up to do a lot of other things. And one thing that I do find that people appreciate is they do want to at least have that visibility and a level of control, you know so they don't want to be cut out completely, so they want to be able to get reports, they want to be able to see statistics, they want to be able to, to be a part of that process. They don't want to be it it taken away completely. And you know that's that's kind of where we're at. You know we want to. We don't want to partner with you, not, you know, just take over.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and in terms of adoption, like what, what industry are you guys involved in in terms of customers, like what I've been seeing in terms of trends, and is it the kind of the target market that you guys had in mind at the beginning? Or did you guys kind of, you know, evolve with the flow and kind of go where, wherever the you know people want you guys?
Speaker 9:I can't comment on the beginning thing because I've only been there like seven months, so you'd have to talk to our, our, our founders for that one. So, but we do a lot of carpeted space, we do warehouses, we do retail, we do, you know, various verticals and we're we're constantly expanding into into different, different areas.
Speaker 5:So, for the wifi piece, how do you deal with the RF environment, especially like in complex environment? What do you guys do there? Because you may you know you may need to change maybe the antennae you're using or you may have some capacity. Questions, right, how does it work? Is it your job? Part of my job?
Speaker 9:So we we deal with, we use him at Hamina for our our predictive designing. We have a great installation team and we've worked with a lot of low voltage cable installers who are are really good. We do a lot of a preliminary work. We do a lot of preliminary work prior to our installation, so we know exactly what we're running into. You know there's always tweaking and there's always improvement through. You know auto RF and auto TX and and those sort of things, but we we try to make a a good show of it, so do you do you work with partners?
Speaker 5:Do you work with partners as you scale, or how do you see that?
Speaker 9:Um, well, how do you mean by? By partners, Like, if you?
Speaker 5:start having a lot of customers requiring a lot of wifi design.
Speaker 1:You know can you call packet six, for example, and have them go on the website survey?
Speaker 9:That's always, that's always in the cards, I think, you know, I think maybe we can, you know, I don't know. Okay, but we do. Um, yeah, sorry, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to for a time I'm going to, I'm going to rotate you out. Uh, I'm going to let you give you the last question again. Do you have any questions over here? And while you're asking your question, I'm going to get Keith. You want to come up and chat with us for a little bit? I think we're going to cut off here about 10 more minutes to go. So we, you're, you're, you're. I was bailing anyway, so so stay here for a second. We'll let Keith come up. Um, yeah, man.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, um, how about your, your customer? Um, I mean, you know, as, as Rawhel said, you know, with, with the value that your services are adding, um, what does it allow your customers to do? Because, you know, I come from from years and years of higher ed where we were always short on time and so, so, and and and and short on staff and all of that, and money, and money and budget, and all of those considerations. So, granted, you're freeing up their time. You know, what do you see as the the the things that your, your customers, can do, because they're taking advantage of your services.
Speaker 1:You can grab that mic. There we go.
Speaker 9:A lot of people tend to be quite relieved than knowing they don't have to deal with a lot of the, the rigmarole of getting a network up and running. Yeah, you know, there's just there's a lot of steps, um, even when you, you talk about just the ISP procurement which we do handle through, uh, uh, one of our particular programs. So you know, we have kind of like a travel velocity for ISP procurement where you can go in and you can get like the best deal, you know the, and then we set it up for you. So it's you know everything along the, the, the path. That makes it easier for our customers and then, once everything is installed, they just they can just like watch it work and then view it from a dashboard. So there's a big weight lifted from that perspective.
Speaker 9:And if I could speak personally, I, I love the idea of taking a product. You know, you, we build the hardware, we make the hardware ourselves. It's, it's our product, we install it, we support it. We have every incentive to make sure that that customer has a great experience. We're not taking a product and handing it off to somebody else and saying, hey, you know you, you, you you you were seeing it all the way through.
Speaker 9:I think that's, that's a wonderful thing, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:So I want to, I want to shift a little bit, keith. Hello, what's up? Man, dude, it's 10 years. 10 years is amazing, I do you know. For I want to start off with the awards. Today. That was some great products got recognized. How I'm going to cleaned up on on the first two, uc came up here and uh and I don't know if you saw the picture on LinkedIn, but the team had the award, which is very good. Uh, some, you know great products ruckus, when, uh, when. The product this is, uh, the product of the year. I don't know what it was, I can't remember the exact, but it's fantastic to see everybody online and voting and being a part of it. How, how are you man? How, how do you feel?
Speaker 6:I'm relaxed right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you are.
Speaker 6:Days over. Oh wait, we asked of a party to go. I'm not quite relaxed yet, but yeah, but it's good, it's been, it's good. We, after the sessions today, before the deep dives, we broke and had a like a CDBN photo shoot, which is the CBRU knees, and I think there are more CDBN knees here than they were attendees of the first conference.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. That's awesome. That's awesome. What, when you think back on, on taking the stage, the stage at the first one? Did you ever imagine it would turn into this?
Speaker 6:Truthfully, I didn't imagine we'd do it again.
Speaker 1:That's fair. It was cold, if I remember correctly, also.
Speaker 6:It was. It was a really, really big risk I had. I had thought I wanted to make a conference actually very much like Techfield and you've been at Techfield, the delegate and I wanted it to be like the feeling you get as a delegate, but for lots of people. But the business model had to switch. It was entirely different. But I wanted that feeling where you go and you hang out and you. It was the conference I wanted to attend. I've been going to Comdexes and Netrolls and Interops and and Cisco. I mean there's lots of conferences. Yeah, I didn't like being what was being sold.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 6:You go to a booth and you just wanna talk to somebody and they're like trying to see your name, they gotta scan you. It's like that little badge is they want what's in your badge. They really don't care about answering your question because it's all about leads and I didn't like being a lead, but I wanted to talk to other people and not have to describe every acronym I used.
Speaker 1:I think you know I had a conversation last night with an incredible group of people you talk about. You know, roy, you mentioned side conversations. I had a conversation last night and the quote that I heard I wanted to remember it to give it back to you was I came, it was the boss, the manager, of someone who's been coming to the conference for a couple of years and it was his first year here and he lives in Phoenix. And I said what do you think? He said I had to show up because I didn't think it was true. And so what do you mean? He says, the way that this conference is described, I didn't think it was real. I thought he was making it up, so this year I had to come see it for myself.
Speaker 1:I said and what do you think? He says I can't believe it's real. And I was like that right, I was like it's so cool. He's like it really is the way that people talk about it, because it's you don't market it. I mean, it's not in trade magazines, it's the people that have been here getting on their podcasts and going out and talking to people going. You have to go.
Speaker 6:And some people asked me like well, the first night during registration, someone came up and said can I come to your conference? I said, well, did you register? He went, no, like I'm here right now. I flew here. I know you don't have any hotel rooms, but can I come? I'm like, yeah, but you know we don't do any kind of marketing. We just sent to an email list of past attendees and we sold 85% of the seats in four hours, and so people come in late and I'm like you had your chance For three months. For three months, like we gave you a long window before.
Speaker 1:It could have been a speaker if you wanted to.
Speaker 6:Yeah, so it's just it's a different conference. It's kind of an unconference because we took all of the vendor bits out. Now, not that there's not vendors here. Vendors talk At night. We let them have their own little shows and they do their marketing bits and every you know. Sometimes we get somebody sneaks through the system and gets up on stage and just does vendor blather for a while and it happens, it happens Every single year. No matter what we try, somebody sneaks one in. So next year they're probably not gonna get invited back.
Speaker 1:You know what, though I will say, that it makes if they stick out like a sore thumb? Oh, they do. I made a meme today that 802.11 memes did not post, but it says trust me, and you know how you can trust me is I'm wearing a suit jacket. It's like anytime someone walks on the WLPC stage to give a presentation.
Speaker 6:Lance is aware, I gotta check it out.
Speaker 1:He's an attendee, yeah, you're attendees. When a speaker gets up and says no, no, no, I'm not sales and they're wearing the jacket, I'm like, uh-oh, here we go, yeah.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it's the only time I wore a jacket.
Speaker 1:But they stick out and it's not even not being a part of the community because, truly, once you're here, I've talked to so many. How many first timers do you think we're here this year? Almost 35%, or something. That's crazy. I talk to them, but that's every year.
Speaker 6:It is that ratio is the kind of same thing, yeah, and you talk to them and they're like it's just, it really.
Speaker 1:It's such a sense of community and they always say you make me feel so welcome. You know, because people sit down at tables with people they don't know.
Speaker 6:And you know what? Truthfully, I don't think people actually make them feel welcome. What it is is they feel like they're home because everyone around me who's talking talks like I do. They say the words that I say. They're excited about the things I'm excited about, and sometimes, when I'm back at my office, I feel alone.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what May was saying earlier.
Speaker 2:For once, I am not the weirdo yeah that's right.
Speaker 6:And so then you feel you feel it's okay to talk to people, and so we try to encourage people, let more people into the conversations. But it and we get complaints every year. People go well, no one invited me to dinner, well, who did you invite to dinner? And then they go oh yeah, I guess I can do that. And so many people who, like just this morning someone was saying I really want to go to dinner with I won't mention names this guy and this guy. I remember just a few years ago that same person came to me and said I want to go to dinner with Devon. How do I get to go to you know? And now people want to go with them because it's an opportunity to grow. You come, you. I remember when May first came with your son when he was what, teeny yeah, he was a little teeny kid.
Speaker 2:He was three yeah.
Speaker 6:And now you're part of it. You're we don't mind having more people come in and join and help. It's just cause that's what we like.
Speaker 1:So what I do want to say real quick is one thing on that note that I saw this year and I brought it up to a couple of people. I think you were standing in the circle when I said it. I saw more women here this year than ever before and that was such a great, wonderful, positive thing, maybe because I watched the Barbie movie on the plane right over here, but also because it was so cool to see just the the, the diversity of the group of people that's here is insane. It's so great and you don't, you know, there's even like a whole Latin American section that hangs out in the back and like jokes with me, cause they know I speak Spanish, and it's like there's such a wonderful group of people and to see the women represented here was awesome. It was like so awesome.
Speaker 2:It was cool, but but you know what? That's? Because, first of all, we're not women, were just wireless engineers yeah, yes, it's a thing, it was, it's it. And we're welcome as wireless engineers.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you feel comfortable here in its environment. That it's so awesome. It's like what a, what a wonderful thing you've built.
Speaker 6:And I can't take any credit for it. It was, and all I wanted was something that I wanted. And other people came and they liked the same thing, and so we did it again, and every year. All the secret is what? What did you like? What would you like again? And every year it's less vendor.
Speaker 6:Every year and even the ones that pop up, we'll whack them down, but but it's not. It's not less people who work for vendors, because I we don't even ask the question on on any of our databases. I don't know who's a vendor, who's not. I mean, I know personally and they might have worked for this company or this company, I don't know, but they're here because of who they are. When they speak, they will have their logo on the slides. Ok, that's fine. So, because they're out on the cutting edge, making new products, making new things, and that's totally fine. It's the one we don't like is when they don't give us anything but the marketing alone. So if you can take technology and wrap it with with your spin, yeah, totally fine it's. If, if your spin has no technology behind it, then those are the ones you say. They stick out like a sore thumb.
Speaker 1:Not the right state. So I want to get the micro to roll because I know he's got some questions for Keith. Oh, there's a question online. Oh, awesome, ok, what is it from the viewers in Houston?
Speaker 7:Yes, from the viewers in Houston. I don't think Keith can hear me, by the way, so you'll have to try, you'll have to repeat this for you.
Speaker 1:She's talking in our heads like a magical.
Speaker 7:We were talking, talking in Drew's head, but I was yeah, the question is about the future of the conference. What does Keith proceed for the future of the conference? What kinds of things would he like to see?
Speaker 1:A fantastic question, what? Ok, so this is from online. What do you see for the future of the conference? What would you like to see? Where do you? What direction do you think it's going in?
Speaker 6:Good question. I have that every not today, not tomorrow, but next week it'll be like oh, what are we going to do better next year? So we'll try to find new things. What didn't work, how do we add more things? The whole deep dive idea started with a little teeny thing. We thought we'd do like two hours and then we did a three hour one and then we did a four hour one and then we split it into two, three hours and I'm thinking for next year. We had we had 15 deep dives this year and 15 different whole entire topics each of them. Some of them went super, super deep, some were just fun. Drones was a good example, we used to do 3D printing and that. They all kind of rise and fall and they're all little curves.
Speaker 6:I think for next year we're going to do a deep dive boot camp. So boot camps are normally three days before the conference and historically we have about 35 to 40 percent of attendees come for. Those extra three days Used to be CWNA, cwap kind of certifications and now we have Hamana certification, ecow certifications, but Python classes deep dives into Wi-Fi six packet captures. So different deep dive I mean sorry, boot camps, those three day ones.
Speaker 6:I think we have enough deep dives to choose from and people say I want to do that one and this one and this one. I have to choose. And part of me says, oh great, we got them, we have such a list to choose from, we picked good topics. But that also means people don't get to attend the ones they really wanted. So the idea is perhaps next year we'll have one option under boot camp is you go deep dive, different deep dive, different deep dive, so you get three days of only deep dives and then, once the conference starts, you get your fourth deep dive. So if people are in just like want to do that, I think we can make that change. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Because, well, I'm actually surprised that you didn't mention. But every year at registration and afterwards we get people that are asking oh well, I really like this deep dive, but I saw that you had this other one and I'd like to switch, and maybe I don't want to switch. Is there any way that I can do two? Or every year we get that question, so we'll try to adjust and see if we can make that happen.
Speaker 6:I'm lucky because one of the things we try to do to improve the deep dives every year and, truthfully, the real reason, the real reason on the camera, the real reason is to give the deep dive instructors an artificial deadline. So for me, or I or others will go and two weeks prior to the conference we'll fly to them and they have to teach us the deep dive. It forces them to have it done early and we can work out any kind of bugs, but I get to go to most of the deep dives and so people are like that's not fair.
Speaker 9:You've got to go to all the deep dives.
Speaker 1:I'm like oh well, maybe we could open that up to other people.
Speaker 6:I love it. Roelle, do you have any questions?
Speaker 1:for Mr Keith.
Speaker 4:No questions other than positive vibes towards this conference. It's really the only conference I like going to and I tell everyone to go to this conference. So if you're at home watching, you should go to the next conference. If you're watching, you should go to the next one. I even go to the one in Prague. Yeah, prague's, great man, they're different Prague's great.
Speaker 4:It's a very different atmosphere, different set of people. Prague is smaller I like smaller events because you get to talk to people more but also it's Europe. It's also Prague, and I've actually been to the Prague one more than the Phoenix one, even though Phoenix is only a 48-minute flight for me. I've been there more, but for me it's just. I think you've got the model right. You're actually attracting the right people. Even when it comes to the presentations, it's done by vote, so we get to pick which ones we really want to hear about. And yeah, like other people, they want to take a different deep dive. I will say I did leave my deep dive and went into another one.
Speaker 4:I just wanted to take a peek and see what was going on. But I went back.
Speaker 1:I did also because they were giving away candy in the one next door and I just went in and grabbed a handful of candy and then walked into my room Just see what I can get, but I really come just to talk to people.
Speaker 4:I try to present. If I can, I'll submit something, but it's a great place to even just learn not just learn, but to enhance your skills. So if you're looking to teach others, submitting a topic and speaking to all of these people in front of you is one way to get a lot of skills at the same time. And as you start to sweat on your first one, it's okay, no one's going to talk about it afterwards, but your second one you'll get more comfortable doing. And that's why I like going here, because I will root for people who submit for their first presentation, like Ali was one that did it last year and I was just back there like go, go, go.
Speaker 1:Laurie man. When, when Ladi was, when she did her presentation, man, it was like the whole. We were all interested in what she was saying, but just the fact that she was presenting, all of us were like, yeah, we're so excited for her.
Speaker 6:Well, we had oh, maybe 140 submissions for presentations and we only have 40, 45 slots. So this year we started a spotlight where we took the next 20 or so in the queue and did some. We had them record. They're not in front of the live session, but we had a recorded session with live audience Awesome and there were some great things recorded and we'll have those posted on the YouTube channel and people can see them and hopefully next year some of those will get into the rookie category.
Speaker 1:You know, you bring something up that's so fundamental. That is so great, because do you remember a time when people used to charge for all of this content and everything from the presentations and the speaking of these slots? This is all made available, it's all out there, it's all on the YouTube channel.
Speaker 6:Someone came to me today and said I heard you're selling the conference and I said what? And somebody had asked to buy the conference. And they said you know you're leaving so much money on the table If you just sold all those YouTube videos. That's what conferences do. You should put up vendor booths. You know how much money you can get from vendors to meet these people. It's kind of like not the thing. And I said why don't you grow? And you could grow so much more. We try to cap it no more than 10, maybe 12% a year, because I don't want to owe the hotel too much money. So I'll take a little teeny risk every year, but it keeps it. So it's a little smaller and you're right. The Prague one is about a third of the size of this and it has a different feel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does.
Speaker 6:And, by the way, if you like Prague, this is our last year in Prague. What that's okay.
Speaker 1:I'm not sad.
Speaker 6:I'm just shocked for a second. We've capped out that building's capacity.
Speaker 1:I would agree with that.
Speaker 6:We'd like to grow, and it was just a little pushing. But we have one last year and then we're going to go find another place in Europe to go to.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is exciting. That is exciting. And there's Spain is coming. You're doing Barcelona, yeah.
Speaker 6:So we started doing because of Frené yeah, and, by the way, you see Frené's bodyguards today. No, some of the Latin America group are well compared to Frené and so he comes walking in and there's like two of them behind on either side and he's looks and he goes my bodyguards. So Frené has something called Tesos. It's every Friday. They have a meeting with Latin Spanish speaking all around the world and they every single Friday, no matter where they are, no matter where they are, and they're up to like 150 sessions, all recorded, all live.
Speaker 6:I mean all live, but they also have the recordings and he just is growing a community in Latin America.
Speaker 1:Well, he just to Colombia, and he did Mexico City also.
Speaker 6:So I went down and did the Columbia with him. They're way smaller than even the Prague, but the model that we use here doesn't quite work in those countries from a financial standpoint. So we don't include the hotel or not breakfast and lunch, because those are the really expensive things.
Speaker 1:You have to move it a little bit.
Speaker 6:So we adjusted to keep the price down. We have one deep dive and they all attend the same one, and we try to keep the prices down. But we are doing a new one in Valencia, spain, this year, and we're doing Mexico City again in November.
Speaker 1:So this is a great time for people to get on Duolingo and start learning Spanish so that you can have an excuse to attend the Valencia. That would be incredible.
Speaker 6:But they, I've been to them and it's kind of like blah blah, blah blah. Cisco, blah blah, blah blah, but Echehau, blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2:So I at least know what they're talking about. Yeah, but the Tesos group is very welcoming as well, and very much. And if you're interested in, Even the French speakers.
Speaker 6:What Even the French speakers? They'll let you on, mm. Hmm, they won't understand you, but they'll let you on.
Speaker 1:Like what language of Spanish is that? Or what the we?
Speaker 2:But anyways, the Tesos group is super, super interesting and if you're interested in the conferences in Valencia and Mexico, joining the Tesos group would be a great introduction and you're going to meet great people.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, they're fantastic. Ok, I think we have a party to get to. Ladies and gentlemen, one thing before we leave one of the qualities I love about you as a friend and someone who is a mentor or a friend everything that we've been through together is that you never stop learning and you have this passion for learning things. What have you learned so far at the conference? What strikes your fancy so far?
Speaker 6:For anyone who wants to get my little push to help get on a speaking slot. I love people who do they have an idea, they don't know the answer, they work to go find it and then they share it with us. I love it. So Wes and it's obviously just not me, because Wes gets invited back, peter gets invited back because they go and they think I wonder what the percentage of 6GIG clients is. And they go find the data and then they tell us what it is. And the people who are like we used to do WPA2, but we should go to 3. And then here's the data from 21, 22, and 23 were above 99%. Everyone went, oh, who's afraid of the big bad wolf? Now, 99%, let's go. And so you might have been sitting back.
Speaker 6:But if you can find a piece of data and support it and it doesn't always have to be positive we had someone in Prague a couple of years ago who said I want to know about BSS coloring, so I figured out how to do it and it took months of lab work to get it tweaked just right. And we did this. And there's all these little things and I proved when you get it tuned perfectly in the lab you get about 10%, but in the real world you get maybe five. That was fantastic information, it's great data. That's fantastic data to say thank you for doing all that work for me. I am not going to do that work for 5%, but if you didn't know and you listened to things, you're like, oh, maybe we should try that.
Speaker 6:People who said, yeah, we should go to OFDMA three, four years ago and we were so proud. We had a deep dive whose sole purpose was to capture an OFDMA frame in the wild. We made jets and nanos, we made custom software. We did it all. We practiced it for weeks ahead and literally in six hours of a deep dive, some people caught one. That's really useful information when all the people selling say, oh yeah, ofdma is going to change the world, maybe, but I can't even get one today. So I like those kind of experimental things, which is why I like going to all the deep dives. Every one of them has something that I didn't know before and I get to go sit for six hours with somebody and learn something new twice a year.
Speaker 1:I did flipper this year. Oh, how'd you like it? It was great. It was so much fun.
Speaker 6:And that was Jason and I sitting in Prague at breakfast. We were at breakfast. And he said oh, I had this flipper. And I just said really, you want to do a deep dive on it? And he's like, why not? And then he worked it. We had pretty good breakfast, You're leaving out a very important part.
Speaker 1:I was sitting right beside you so we were like, yeah, man, that'd be great. And Bishar was like OK, yeah, I think I'll do that, and Keith's over here on his phone. And we look over and Keith goes I just ordered 40 flippers, you're going to do the class. Well, there was that too. Yeah, I mean no push, no push. Well, on that note, it's coming up on 7.30. We've got an incredible 10-year anniversary party going on outside Y'all May. It's great to see you, lance. Thanks for hanging out. Man Ra'well, we're on a podcast together. It's fantastic. And Keith, man, I can't wait to see you in Prague, if not before. There's so many great events that we all have. This has been really fun, man.
Speaker 2:Congratulations on 10 years, thank you, and getting us all together a year after year and making December 15th, or about, the best day of the year.
Speaker 6:Oh yeah, December 15th happens to be a registration day.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we just did everybody's calendar.
Speaker 6:That's just how it works and really it's probably the most successful high school reunion, because most of us never went to ours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I heard you I think you said that last night and this is such a great family atmosphere. So, on that note, let's go out and have some fun. Thank you for listening. I'm Drew with Wireless, nerd with Waves, ra'well with Clear to Sin, and then we've got Unplugged Connectivity. You guys on the other side you want to say hello, pop on the camera one last time on Unplugged and say hello, ms Karam.
Speaker 7:Thank you. Thank you everybody so much. It's been awesome. I've enjoyed it a lot. I was just part of the audience. I couldn't even ask any more questions, I was just enjoying it so much. So thank you everybody. Congrats, keith, on the 10 years. Everybody follow us on Unplugged on youtubecom slash. Get Unplugged at Get Unplugged. Also, don't forget to follow Clear to Sin and Waves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you subscribe to your? Where do you find your podcast and your content? Just go to clear to sinnet, clear to sinnet, clear to sinnet, yep.
Speaker 7:Clear to sinnet. There you go.
Speaker 4:Yeah, usually I should know to have a mic. But yeah, you can find us at clear to sinnet. Everything's there, yep, and I'm on wirelessnerdnet and Keith.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I have one called Heavy Wireless. It's part of the Packet Pushers podcast network.
Speaker 7:Yeah, very good.
Speaker 6:See that three times fast that works. And so Heavy Wireless is a fun one and we get to dive into it, and all of us have podcasts that talk about the same subject, slightly different angles, and they're all enjoyable.
Speaker 1:I think so. I listen to his at double speed and it sounds hilarious.
Speaker 6:Anyway, we can't listen to yours at double speed.
Speaker 1:No it's impossible. Well, thanks for listening. Y'all have a wonderful evening. We're going to go out and we hope to see you here next year at WLPC. If not here, we'll see you in Prague, we'll see you in Spain, we'll see you in Mexico, we will see you somewhere. Thanks for listening. Have a great evening, and with that, we are out of here.
