In this episode, I’m thrilled to be joined by @Sarah Ropek, the Founder of @People Management Partners, an HR consultancy committed to delivering HR solutions to startup, small and medium sized businesses.
In this conversation, Sarah and I explore the world of HR for Small Businesses – and how small business owners can best approach the people side of their businesses.
🌟 Some of my favourite parts were:
✅ Developing your team’s skills and using competency frameworks to do so;
✅ Hiring for shared values amongst your management team as you scale;
✅ Forecasting for staff fluctuations and seasonality in your business;
✅ Rules of thumb around hiring full time vs. fractional staff;
✅ The benefits of virtual co-working for hybrid teams.
Business Book Bonus Recommendation –
The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle - https://amzn.eu/d/1dZmjl3
In this episode, I’m thrilled to be joined by @Sarah Ropek, the Founder of @People Management Partners, an HR consultancy committed to delivering HR solutions to startup, small and medium sized businesses.
In this conversation, Sarah and I explore the world of HR for Small Businesses – and how small business owners can best approach the people side of their businesses.
🌟 Some of my favourite parts were:
✅ Developing your team’s skills and using competency frameworks to do so;
✅ Hiring for shared values amongst your management team as you scale;
✅ Forecasting for staff fluctuations and seasonality in your business;
✅ Rules of thumb around hiring full time vs. fractional staff;
✅ The benefits of virtual co-working for hybrid teams.
Business Book Bonus Recommendation –
The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle - https://amzn.eu/d/1dZmjl3
Adam (00:03.444)
Okay, so today I'm here with Sarah Ropek, who is the founder of People Management Partners, a forward-thinking human resources consultancy committed to delivering results-oriented HR solutions to start up small and medium businesses. Sarah, welcome to the show. How are you doing?
Sarah Ropek (00:22.83)
Good, thank you for having me.
Adam (00:24.136)
Well, thank you for being here. Thank you for being here. So today we're looking at navigating HR for small business success and how small business owners can approach the people side of their business. So I guess to start with Sarah, would you mind giving us a bit of an overview of your career so far?
Sarah Ropek (00:41.666)
Yeah, sure. So I've worked in HR for around 20 years now. And for that first part of my career, I was in-house sort of working my way up in different sorts of businesses and in-house HR roles from HR assistant positions to advisory positions to up to sort of head of HR and director. And those roles were all within different sectors. So I've experienced the small family run business right up to a big international corporation.
But in 2015, I set up people management partners and we specialize in working just with small businesses and that's really where my passion lies. And here we work with all sorts of small business from creative businesses that I know you particularly work with, across to private healthcare, charities, all sorts of businesses. And we try and bring that broad experience.
to the work that we do to create the best solutions we can for our clients.
Adam (01:43.592)
Excellent, very good. Okay, so I guess to start with, let's look at the different approaches that small businesses can take to staffing up their businesses. There's obviously staffing up with fixed full-time staff or with variable contractors or freelancers. So, yeah, can you give me your view on how small businesses typically sort of start their businesses in your experience?
Sarah Ropek (02:08.47)
Yeah, so I mean generally it would depend on how they're funded. So are they growing their business by growing their revenue slowly? Or are they seeking external funding and starting off with quite a sizable pot of money? But regardless of which approach, how much money they've got to spend on that structure, we would always think about the staffing structure in terms of those two types of costs. So...
the fixed costs, those costs that are always going to be the same no matter what you do. They typically refer to, for HR people, your monthly salary costs and the other costs associated with that monthly salary like your pension contributions, any benefits you offer. And they're fixed and you're making a commitment when you put those roles into your structure and hire to them that you're going to meet that cost unless obviously you make a different decision and...
choose to eliminate those roles, but that is not the goal when you're trying to grow a business. Alongside those monthly costs, we would also encourage for particular roles, the business to think about the variable costs that could come with a fixed salary. So those would be things like bonus awards. So there are typically two categories of bonus that we see small business using quite often. So the first is a general bonus scheme.
where you reward all of the team if the company does well to a certain percentage. And that can be quite general, but quite a good tool for kind of encouraging people to work towards a shared goal, a shared goal of growth or whatever it may be. But then there's also the sales incentive side of things, which is much more targeted on has that team or that person brought in a certain amount of new business. And that would be a variable cost.
that a business might want to consider when they're planning their budget. And which one you use would depend on the role and the structure that you're creating. Other types of costs that we would encourage businesses to think about, particularly in the early days, is things like zero hours contracts, freelancers, because those costs aren't going to be contingent on...
Sarah Ropek (04:28.662)
that they're going to, sorry, the other way around, they're going to be contingent. Oh, should I start that sentence again? They can edit it out. So the other thing that we would ask small businesses to consider is things like...
Adam (04:33.026)
Yep, okay.
Sarah Ropek (04:44.098)
casual workers and freelancers because those costs are going to be applied only when the need arises, there's much more flexibility and typically when a small business is growing their structure they will rely much more on those variable staffing costs over a fixed cost like an employed salary.
Adam (05:04.824)
Yeah, understood. And I guess one point that businesses need to consider before hiring their staff, as you say, is whether to try and do it themselves, whether to try and bring on freelancers, contractors, or to make that first hire. How do you recommend small businesses decide which approach is right for them? Are there any kind of rules of thumb that you give them?
Sarah Ropek (05:31.218)
in terms of how they source those people.
Adam (05:33.429)
in terms of which approach they take.
Sarah Ropek (05:37.002)
to whether they go with a flexible cost or a fixed cost. Yeah, so I would always encourage business owners to think about a few things. So the first is, are there activities that are essential to the running of the business, but aren't core to the service you're delivering? So back office support like finance, HR, I would always encourage a small business owner to think about outsourcing those things over putting that capability in a fixed role.
Adam (05:40.409)
Yeah.
Sarah Ropek (06:06.346)
because it's specialist, you don't need it all the time. The other thing I would encourage a business owner to think about is the low level administrative tasks that typically if you're starting small and growing slowly, you will have those things that you're doing in your day-to-day role. How can you remove, what position could you put in that would support those activities being delivered freeing the business owner up to do more of the things that are gonna drive growth?
And things like virtual assistants, so freelance type arrangements are a great way of doing that in the early days. But equally, a fixed employee cost and administrator is going to be much cheaper than bringing in a senior person to do that senior level work.
Adam (06:55.572)
Understood, understood. And I guess another factor that you probably come across is how you scale. So in terms of your approach to hiring, how should that evolve and develop as the business grows? Are there any sort of common challenges or pitfalls that the owner should watch out for as they transition, I guess, from startup to scale up?
Sarah Ropek (07:17.11)
Yeah, so I think when a business is in that phase, they're normally looking at bringing in manager level roles that deliver in a specific area of the business that might even be outside of the business owner's experience or real level of skill. So I think that the really important thing to do when you're hiring for those critical positions as you scale up.
is to be very clear about what are those specific skills that you do need, what are they, have you got them elsewhere in the business? But also to think really carefully about what are the behaviors that you're trying to instill, what's the culture you're trying to instill in your business? Because it's so important in those early stages that you develop a management team that have those sort of shared values around how they're going to deliver the work.
Adam (08:11.672)
Yeah, absolutely. I think we'll come on to that, the behaviors and culture, as you say, it's so important and something that changes so much as a business grows, right? As you change your roles and responsibilities of the original founders.
Sarah Ropek (08:20.683)
Yeah.
Sarah Ropek (08:26.206)
Absolutely and I think the great thing about if you're a small business growing slowly through increasing your revenue versus going for external funding is you have the time to do that, you have the time to think okay I know that in five years I want to be here, who do I need to bring into the business now at a more junior level that I can nurture and develop?
so that they really understand what it is I want them to deliver as a leader in my business.
Adam (08:58.204)
Great, yeah, absolutely.
And I think another, just a final point on this area I'd like to ask your opinion on is around fluctuations and seasonality. And you can, you know, often I've worked in businesses where you'll have peak periods and then you'll have down periods. And a constant conversation I have as the finance guy with the business owner and the business managers is making sure that you're, you're staffing up with the right level resources without overspending during those slower periods. Do you have any kind of advice
business owners around that.
Sarah Ropek (09:32.778)
So, I mean, I've seen this work particularly well in actually private healthcare setting where the model that they use is they have a smaller amount of what they call core staff, so salaried staff, the minimum number of people you need to deliver the service that you're delivering based on your average amount of activity. And then you use flexible staffing.
to top yourself up when the requirement arises. So that would be things like having a staff bank. So you might think, oh, I have to go to an agency to fulfill those temporary staffing needs. But actually, depending on the frequency and the timing of those peak periods for your business, you can set those arrangements up yourself. There's nothing stopping you from having a pool of temporary staff that you can call in.
when you need on zero hours contracts and then standing them down when you don't require it.
Adam (10:38.756)
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess a follow on from that is around how business owners should forecast because obviously you've got your seasonality, but when you're starting out, you're not always aware of when that seasonality is coming and it's quite a difficult challenge to staff up and to forecast. So any advice around how they should forecast their staffing needs and how they should align them with business goals they might not even be aware of yet.
Sarah Ropek (10:54.094)
quite a difficult challenge.
Sarah Ropek (11:07.654)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a... Is it art or science? I don't know. Because I think there's a lot of unknowns when you're trying to forecast what your staffing requirements might be in the future. Generally, how I see businesses do it is to think, look back at the past, look at the past, what happened in the previous year, two years, what are the patterns that we can see? Depending on the type of product or service that business is delivering.
They might already know something about the likelihood of that work continuing in the future so that they can predict, yes, we know that that's going to happen again next year, or actually we know it's not because we've lost a contract or whatever it may be. And then it's a bit of estimation, understanding the market, knowing what's going on with your competitors to help you think about, is that...
how likely is what I expect to happen, is that actually gonna be what happens and do I need to adapt my staffing to accommodate that? So I think it's a difficult thing for businesses to navigate and I think the finance role is obviously very, very important in that business planning process.
Adam (12:26.36)
I'm glad you said that. I absolutely agree. In terms of, again, this is a kind of finance and HR question together in my experience, but I'd be interested in your view around if there's any techniques or any technologies or tools that you have used around helping you to forecast staff needs that you would recommend or anything that you've come across that would be useful for the audience.
Sarah Ropek (12:30.749)
Yes, I thought you might.
Sarah Ropek (12:56.226)
So do you mean in terms of how much resource is required?
Adam (13:04.541)
In terms of the actual tools that are used, so whether it's like there's a piece of software that you've used that you sort of help your forecasting of people resource planning, that kind of thing.
Sarah Ropek (13:16.758)
I mean, I've worked in small businesses, big businesses, middle businesses, and I have never encountered a magic tool that is going to help businesses specifically forecast what is required. In my experience, businesses that do it really well have developed something that is bespoke for their company. They've developed something that, I don't know, depending on the type of service they're offering, if they're...
Adam (13:38.614)
Okay.
Sarah Ropek (13:46.178)
charging out by the hour and they need to know what they're charging by the hour and what their booked commitment is. They've got something bespoke on a spreadsheet wherever it is that really pinpoints exactly what their requirements are and what the corresponding staffing requirement is.
Adam (14:03.972)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I guess we focused on kind of numbers, but another obviously, and you touched on it before around skills and the skills that you require. Any sort of experience you've gotten, advice you can give about how you can develop your staffing plans around the skills that you require when you're starting out and as you're evolving towards your business goals?
Sarah Ropek (14:32.734)
Yeah, so I think developing your team towards what you're trying to offer to your clients, customers, whoever is really an important part of growing your business. The most effective tools I've seen to do that are things like competency frameworks because there's no avoiding getting down to the detail of understanding the specifics of what you need a role to deliver day to day.
and then doing that work of analyzing the gap between where your team members currently are and where you need them to get to so that you can identify exactly what it is you need to do to get them to that place. And I know for small businesses they might often think oh that sounds like a kind of big business activity to create a competency framework and do that level of work but there is really no other way because unless your employees have the same understanding as the
as the business owner has of what those requirements are of the role, you're just never going to be able to bridge that gap.
Adam (15:38.724)
Yeah, absolutely. And without doing that exercise, how can they, right? Because it's going to be subjective with the best will in the world, the owner communicating that to the employee when they join, it's going to evolve, right? As they, as they develop.
Sarah Ropek (15:52.166)
Exactly and I think for small businesses in particular, over time what you understand you want to deliver as a business changes. So that then changes your expectations of job roles within that team. I can definitely say that's true of my business. We're constantly tweaking, you know, we've seen this thing over here that didn't quite work or it worked really well. How do we...
develop the team so that they all do that thing consistently. It's a never-ending activity, really.
Adam (16:25.4)
Yeah, absolutely. Those standard operating procedures are continually developing and like this is best practice. This is how you do it, right?
Sarah Ropek (16:33.382)
Exactly, exactly. And I think as you grow your team, so when you're very small, you can just assume almost that people will understand what it is you need to do in a job. They'll understand the steps of a process because normally everybody's involved together and they all see parts of the process of the process in its entirety. But as you grow and you bring new people in and you need to explain to them this is actually how you do this job and this is...
what the outputs of those activities are, you do start to need something more, a document, something that you can actually share with people, some specific training that talks them through those processes and why you're doing them in a particular way.
Adam (17:17.688)
Absolutely and I think without it the employee can be slightly lost, can't they, in terms of doing something they're not quite sure on how to and then also frustrating the manager or the owner because they're not doing what they want them to do.
Sarah Ropek (17:31.922)
Absolutely and I think everybody, most business owners have been in a position where they've interviewed somebody and they thought this person's great, I can't wait to have them on board, they've got all the skills and then they've come into their business and it hasn't worked out and nobody can quite pinpoint why that is but if I think in the majority of cases if you took a step back and looked at what that onboarding process looked like, how you explained the requirements of the role in...
The majority of cases probably there wasn't enough detail there, there wasn't enough training, there wasn't enough explanation of what those requirements are.
Adam (18:09.764)
It's one of those bits that gets forgotten often and mistakenly because you only get one chance to onboard someone, right? And if you're an owner and you're massively stretched, which is why you've done the hire, it's easy to think, right, they're in the door, I can move on now, rather than going back and sort of underlining and cementing their place in the company through onboarding.
Sarah Ropek (18:16.212)
Exactly.
Sarah Ropek (18:30.482)
Exactly, exactly.
Adam (18:32.512)
Excellent. Okay. Something you touched on before and I'd like to go back to around incentives and sort of the, you know, obviously sales incentives, bonuses, you know, that's something that often is right at the outset. You're going to be starting that process. Uh, it'd be great to hear your, uh, some of your success stories or examples where you've had really well designed programs that have significantly improved sort of employee attraction, employer retention.
Sarah Ropek (18:39.511)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Ropek (19:03.306)
Yeah, so I think on the sales incentive side, I think that the temptation is often to make something really complicated and, you know, because with all of these sorts of incentives, they need to be self-funding. So the work of the team needs to generate enough more money for the bonus to pay out. It should always be that way. And if it's not, you need to look at your bonus schemes.
But I think to achieve that sometimes people, business owners, like to put everything in there and make it really complicated and say, you know, you've got to have this many calls and this many follow-up meetings or whatever it is, whatever is part of your sales process. In my view, the simpler the better. If people don't understand what their incentive, what the things are that they have to do to achieve that incentive payment.
then they're never going to do it. So the best examples I've seen have been very simple. And I think the best examples are where, you know, there's no point in incentivizing sales in a team that don't want to sell. So that may sound blindingly obvious, but I've seen situations where businesses have given everyone access to the sales incentive, but for the majority of people, they're not interested in selling. So that isn't an incentive to them.
they're never going to achieve that. So I think you need to ensure that those incentives are targeted towards the outcome you're looking for and the motivations of the team members that you are trying to encourage down a particular path.
Adam (20:46.852)
Yeah, absolutely. I think you've already answered my next question around motivating the company because as you say, it has to be targeted and it has to be designed in the way that is creating the right effects rather than just being broad brushstroke and trying to chuck everything in there, right?
Sarah Ropek (21:02.894)
Exactly, because just as a sales incentive can tend to be too detailed, a company incentive scheme can be too broad and you might have to achieve X amount of revenue in order for people to attain this company bonus, but then people don't really understand what their part is in getting to that goal. So it's not...
Adam (21:26.225)
Yeah.
Sarah Ropek (21:29.034)
you want it to drive the behaviours and the performance towards whatever that goal is.
Adam (21:34.692)
and it's gotta be aligned, right? So you've gotta have the individual incentives aligned with the company incentives or even the departmental incentives as you scale up. So it all needs to dovetail into each other, right?
Sarah Ropek (21:45.822)
Absolutely, absolutely. And then obviously, alongside those sorts of incentives, those bonuses, you have your normal goal setting process, your normal pay review process potentially. So there are all these different pieces that you can put together to pull the right levers with the right teams with different goals. So they all work together in that way.
Adam (22:09.424)
And what's your view on the pay review process being aligned to the goals? Because I've come across different mindsets there about you either keep them separate and so your goals are your goals, or you go, right, you've hit 50% of your goals and so you can have a pay rise that's sort of correlated to that. What's your view on that?
Sarah Ropek (22:28.81)
I mean my view is you have to do the thing that works best for the business and the goal that you're trying to achieve and your culture. So for some businesses they just don't feel that it sits with their culture to have a review around how did you do on your goals, how's your personal development going and then say oh actually we're not going to give you a pay increase. They would rather have the goal setting process focus much more around development and do a cost of living increase.
that's unrelated to the goal of the business. And if that's right for them, then we can help them design something that makes sense. I think what's far more common is that people do like to tie. They may do a cost of living increase as part of the overall pay award process, but they like to have a component in there which is driven by performance. And personally, that probably is my preferred way of doing it as well, because if...
all these things don't work together, if all these different incentives don't work together, then you're not getting the benefit of them.
Adam (23:34.532)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One thing that as you were talking there made me think is I've seen these programs beautifully designed, really well understood by the team who were designing them, but they're not communicated properly. So I'd love to hear your view on what role communication plays in ensuring that you get a positive outcome from these programs.
Sarah Ropek (23:47.432)
Yeah.
Sarah Ropek (23:57.214)
I mean of course communicating it is so important. I mean I've seen those things too where it doesn't just apply to performance review process. You probably think of a hundred different examples in different areas where people get so excited by the detail and the process and the latest thinking and whatever the programme might be that they miss that it needs to be aligned to the business and the team just need to understand it. So my preference is always to have
the simplest possible performance appraisal process, the clearest possible pay policy, and any sort of bonus scheme rules to be equally as clear so that you don't have that problem because I think leaders can fall into the trap of thinking that they've communicated really well and really clearly how something works. I think HR people can fall into that same trap.
Adam (24:50.128)
Finance the same as well, to be honest.
Sarah Ropek (24:52.074)
Yeah, and we understand it, we know the best practice. So I think making it very, very simple is the most important thing. So actually the communication can be very simple and clearly understood.
Adam (25:06.)
Absolutely, absolutely. And a link to that, I guess, is employee morale because poor communication leads to sort of poor morale, I would say, around the company. And often, particularly finance people, and I think maybe other departments as well, think that if you're offering sort of competitive incentives, then you don't necessarily need to invest in other aspects of the workplace environment. What's your view on the balance between how much investment should go into incentives?
programs and how much you go into other areas.
Sarah Ropek (25:40.29)
So again, it's going to depend on the business and what their goals are. Cause if they're pushing for big growth, then they should have hired a team that are motivated by that environment. And they're probably therefore motivated by bigger sales incentives. Whereas if what you're doing is trying to stay kind of steady, then you'll be hiring different people, different type of person with different motivators. But I think the key is however much weight you put on.
the type of incentive and benefit you're offering. You need to have as much of the full suite as the business can accommodate. So you need to have considered the personal development staff. You need to have considered things like health benefits I find are becoming increasingly important to employees. Things like not just physical health, but financial health, that is becoming really topical.
Adam (26:15.972)
Yeah.
Sarah Ropek (26:36.014)
flexible working opportunities. You need to, particularly as a small business, where you may not have the biggest budgets, but you do have the flexibility to tailor something for the employees in your business in a way that a large corporation doesn't, because they're more driven by these, the company rules. I think you need to set yourself up to have that suite of things that you can draw on that will motivate the right people in the right way.
Adam (26:37.017)
Mm-hmm.
Adam (27:05.976)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that flexibility is key and you're sort of, as you say, you're, you're
A real strength as a small business is the ability to be flexible and not be sort of constrained by a wider structure, which actually, yeah, that brings me on to the sort of final bit I would like to get your view on is around organisational structures and how an effective organisational structure looks like for a small business as they grow. So what's your view on how a small business owner should approach that?
Sarah Ropek (27:19.15)
corporate governance.
Adam (27:41.542)
an effective structure that accommodates their growth.
Sarah Ropek (27:45.858)
So it won't surprise you that I'm going to say it depends. It depends on the strategy. It depends on how much money you've got, because obviously if you've got a big budget, then why wouldn't you try and do everything? But I think for a typical small business that's sort of growing fairly steadily, the sort of structure I would recommend is one where the founder starts to bring in support around those back office areas, like outsourced.
flexible support around things like finance, marketing, HR, although it's all out there for these businesses to tap into so that they can create that kind of back office strength. And then I would be suggesting that they look at what are the core roles, what are the roles that are most critical to them delivering their service to their customer and those are the ones that I would be saying.
We should be starting to think about if you're not ready for a manager in that area to take the lead now, we should be thinking about who are we bringing in lower down so that they can be developed into that role. And that's where I would be recommending they're starting to build out more of a formal structure with more fixed cost because it's the difference between how they deliver their service or the quality of the service or product they might be delivering.
Adam (29:10.554)
Yeah.
Sarah Ropek (29:11.128)
That was.
Adam (29:11.564)
Absolutely. No, I get you. I get you. And I guess the final question I had on that is as you're bringing in these sort of new outsource services or you're changing the structure, as we said, touched on before, communication is key for the people who remain who are there from the outset to understand what's happening. So can you share any sort of best practices in terms of how business owners can develop effective communication, effective collaboration within their structures as they're bringing in these
teams.
Sarah Ropek (29:43.378)
So I mean, developing that sort of collaboration as a culture, it's all about the behavior of the leaders. It's all about, is the founder or the leadership team, depending on how big the structure is, are they role modeling this behavior of collaboration? Are they going away and thinking about what they want to do on their own and just telling us, or are they encouraging contribution from other parts of the team? So I think it has to start there.
But in terms of some practical things that business owners can do to support that, I've seen things like virtual co-working working really well, where teams come together, maybe not necessarily working on a specific thing together. They're working on different parts of the business, but it's a forum to have a broader conversation about what's going on in the business and look for opportunities to work together or maybe do things.
slightly differently, so that can be quite effective. But also, if there is a problem in the business, actually proactively bringing a team together across different areas to invite their contribution and to come up with some new ideas and share that that's what you're doing, share that is how you work, and then it won't be long before you start to see.
more junior team members following suit and setting those kind of collaboration style meetings up too. The only thing I would say is with a highly collaborative culture also needs to be the author, I've totally lost my train of thought then. I know you're talking about the authority. It's not authority, it's not authority, what's the word I'm looking for?
Adam (31:25.82)
I know where you're going, the authority of the leader to not be too collaborative, right?
Adam (31:34.16)
dictatorship.
Sarah Ropek (31:35.95)
No, it is. Accountability. Yeah. So with all that collaboration, with a collaborative culture, that has to work hand in hand with accountability. If you've got people off coming up with new ideas all the time, working across the business, you still need to be very clear who is accountable for delivering that thing or who is accountable for making that decision. Otherwise.
You might have a lovely culture where everyone works together, but at the end of the day you still need to be delivering whatever it is the business requires.
Adam (32:10.564)
Yeah, absolutely. Some really good ideas there, I like that. The cross-discipline teams, that virtual co-working and accountability to ensure stuff still gets done, right? Very good. Okay, excellent. Well, and now I'm gonna move, change tack again, onto our business book bonus section where we're asking our guests to provide us with a recommendation for the audience of a business book or to make it a bit easier, some other business content will be okay. That's helped you during your business career.
Sarah Ropek (32:20.99)
Absolutely.
Adam (32:40.458)
and that you would like to recommend to our audience. So what business book or other content would you like to recommend, Sarah?
Sarah Ropek (32:47.522)
So the book I'm going to recommend is The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle. So the reason I'm recommending that is because we've talked a lot about sort of functional things that you can do to support a growing business. This book is really about how you develop a culture as a leader and it shares lots and lots of examples of different types of business, military groups, a gang of jewelry feeds and how they did that. And I think...
There's so much that a business owner can take away from that when they're thinking about building their team.
Adam (33:22.764)
Excellent. Okay. That's great. The culture code. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Thank you very much. And anything that we haven't covered that you'd like to say before we wrap up, Sarah.
Sarah Ropek (33:33.15)
I don't think so, no. It's been great to talk to you.
Adam (33:36.144)
Thank you very much. Thank you for joining me on the Fractional CFO show and really appreciate your insight, your perspective and your time. Thank you.