Finance and Account Management

In this episode, I’m thrilled to be joined by @Rachael Ager, the Client Services Director at Brunswick Creative, the creative arm of Brunswick group, where Rachael leads the account management team working across offices in Europe, North America, Asia, and the Gulf. 

In this conversation, Rachael and I explore how agency finance teams can best empower and support account management and in turn their clients.

🌟 Some of my favourite parts were:

✅ How Rachael sees the role of finance as a vital second pair of eyes within the business;

✅ The challenges of working in a Creative agency and managing overspends to ensure client satisfaction;

✅ The management of projects and ensuring that as a global agency international clients are supported in a consistent way;

✅ How Brunswick Creative use regular finance surgeries as ways to provide visibility to Account Management on project progress;

✅ How education of the team on the direct link between timesheets, estimates and invoicing improves timesheet completion rates.

Business Book Bonus - Belonging: The Ancient Code of Togetherness by Owen Eastwood -  https://amzn.eu/d/cLr4TFZ

Transcript

Adam (00:02.195)

Okay. So today I'm here with Rachael Ager, who is the Client Services Director at Brunswick Creative, the creative arm of Brunswick group, uh, Rachael leads the account management team, uh, and Brunswick group, uh, are obviously the global creative, uh, communication agency, uh, working offices in Europe, North America, Asia, and the Gulf. So Rachael, welcome to the fractional CFO show. How are you doing?

Rachael (00:28.606)

Yeah good thank you thank you for having me nice to see you.

Adam (00:32.311)

Nice to see you too, thanks for being here. Today we're diving into how agency finance teams and best empower and support account management. So Rachael, to start with, would you mind giving us a bit of an overview of your career so far?

Rachael (00:35.017)

Thank you.

Rachael (00:48.074)

Yeah, sure. So yes, I've always worked agency side. So I've always been in an account management role working for different agencies in the UK. So started my career in Leeds as a graduate trainee. So right at the very bottom of the ladder, working my way up and moving to London in the process to director level, but actually I've really enjoyed the journey because it's helped me to understand all aspects of the account management role.

I'm well equipped to be in this position and just really enjoy and continue to enjoy all the aspects of account management and client service.

Adam (01:27.987)

Excellent, excellent. So I guess to start with, I'd love to understand how you see being in account management, being in client services, how do you see the role of finance in a marketing agency? And how do you think finance best supports account management?

Rachael (01:46.35)

I mean, yeah, I think for me, it's all about partnership and teamwork. I could say, I could use this answer, I guess.

understanding the role of any department when working with account management but I think it's really important to see to make sure we all see ourselves as being on the same team. We should be collaborative, we should be positive and we should all aim to kind of help and benefit each other. I know it's managing project and team finances is a really big and important part of my role and of my team's. So yes I think the role is first and foremost to be collaborative and be

Rachael (02:23.676)

two main areas that I find myself working closely with finance on. The first one will be in and around client finances and the second one would be around internal finances. Client wise, having access to data is really important. As account managers we have so much information on a project level and but certainly from a finance team and they can really help to fill in those gaps and give so much more information in terms of historical data.

real key insights into profitability, utilisation and can then produce very clear and accurate reports for us to work with. I think the finance team are always a second pair of eyes, very invaluable support on things like budget estimates or invoices and they can also really partner with us in terms of the more contractual aspects such as payment terms and way after a

manager's role perhaps is started to finish. Chasing payments and making sure that invoices are processed, all great things to have finance team support with. And then internal wise, similar kind of reports are useful for me in particular, checking team utilisation, overall project profitability, I think that's very helpful but also for things such as

Rachael (03:52.856)

and align on budgets to make sure that I have the right information for salary, benchmarking, charge out rates, etc. So many different ways that the finance team can help account management.

Adam (04:06.311)

Excellent. And you touched on something, you touched on a lot there. So I'm going to dive into a few of those points. Firstly, you mentioned about collaboration and that sort of collaborative culture and the importance of that, creating synergies and having a successful experience for the client, as well as for the team as a whole. Could you, I guess, to start with share some real life examples, if you have any, or any success stories to illustrate how finance, how account management have worked well together?

Rachael (04:36.242)

Yeah, oh yes, there'll be loads of examples. I mean, my finance team are always laughing at me for kind of walking around and asking, interrupting them really to ask them questions about VLOOKUPs or conditional formatting. I mean, at a very basic level. There's some great examples of where the finance team have really helped me improve some of my spreadsheets. And we work a lot in Excel in terms of tracking project amends, creating budgets, doing...

budget reconciliations, rate cards. So although I make light of it, that is a genuine example where we really do work well together and collaborate. If the bones of a spreadsheet are there from the account management team, you know that the finance team will really help you make it more robust and get some good formulas in there. So that's one example. But really I think the main kind of areas

in how we manage different programmes and tools. So sometimes, you know, I'll be working on the start of a document and can progress it so far, but I have that vision of what more it can do and sitting and working with the finance team and linking into other documents on the server, getting them to help improve those documents genuinely does lead to much better estimating and reporting for those things to be linked to the system.

Also other examples would include things like job reconciliations, making sure that account managers are always up to speed with their burn rates. So running projects, there's so many nuances to it, it's so busy with so many aspects of the client service, that to go back to that project management detail side of things is often where team members and myself value additional support. So having things like monthly finance surgeries.

with finance teams to review a report that is generated by the finance team to show the project budget versus the current spend. Looking at fees and costs is very helpful and we can use that information to...

Rachael (06:52.682)

course correct, to have internal conversations, to have client conversations, to ask for more budget, to give budget back. It's just good to make sure that we have those regular meetings for visibility and just making sure that we can reassure or raise a flag in terms of how budget is being spent.

Adam (07:14.111)

Excellent, excellent. Loads there and you've mentioned budgets a couple of times already and I'd be interested to understand from your point of view how you see finance inputting best into client budgets. How do you see finance really being involved in setting those client budgets as accurately as possible?

Rachael (07:33.742)

I think working for a global agency, I think rate cards, rate setting, having that kind of global view of how we can structure our estimates and the right rates for different people in different markets is very interesting. I mean we are a global agency but the majority of my clients are London based so when it comes to having a more global perspective I would definitely find the...

working with the finance team, very helpful in understanding a different market or a different make-up of how a budget may be put together. I'm trying to think of another area.

Adam (08:16.823)

Now that's good. I think we can touch on that because the international side of things is something that a lot of the audience either have to deal with now or are looking to deal with in the future. So in terms of how finance work helping you with those international budgets, is it around exchange rates? Is it around making sure that there's transfer pricing going from working in one market?

Adam (08:43.379)

across to another, how is it that finance best help with those international side of things?

Rachael (08:49.278)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely exchange rates. I mean, on a monthly basis, the finance team will provide an updated sheet that has the different rates in there that we should base our budgets on. And not only is that sheet provided, but it's linked. So when we're doing our budget, you can enter the month that you're budgeting and it will pull through the right exchange rates for you to be able to give the client a budget in their currency that is as up to date as possible.

I mean, always there'll be a caveat in there that exchange rates, that the final figure is subject to exchange rate fluctuation. But it's important that we try and give the client the most accurate estimate upfront. So that is very helpful when the finance team help us with visibility, what the different rates are for the different markets.

Adam (09:40.263)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's, as you say, having a caveat there is important. So you cover off particularly in the current sort of fluctuating environment that we live in, but as well, you want to be as accurate as possible from the outset. So having that linkage between current exchange rates as accurate as you can is best practice. Okay, that's great. And something else you touched on earlier was about course correcting.

and looking at actuals versus budget. I think you mentioned in a finance surgery. So I'd be interested to understand more about that. Like when those projects are live, you need to get sort of accurate or as accurate as possible tracking of actuals versus budget. But particularly in smaller agencies, which some of our audience are in, you know, they don't always have that access to the financial information that they need. So could you tell us a little bit more about how you and your agency manage that?

Rachael (10:34.602)

Yeah, sure. And this is best.

the partnership and teamwork point really. Working in the creative industry, there's undoubtedly a lot of subjectivity in the work that we do and the client feedback that we'll have. Although we can do a very detailed project scope upfront in terms of what the deliverables will be, how many rounds of amends might be allowed for, if a client just does not like a creative concept,

Rachael (11:06.732)

to change it. So sometimes we will have to knowingly overspend to get the creative to a point where the client likes it and where they feel it meets the brief. And then there's a conversation with the finance team to explain that yes, there has been an overrun there on the creative concept stage because it's a subjective review and there was more work needed and that was a value add that we have made with the client.

and that's where the numbers will tell one story but then the context and detail of actually running a project will tell another and this wouldn't go on to an endless degree but I think there's that understanding there from the two teams that there's going to be give and take at each of the stages and as long as we're able to voice that over we can note the figures, we can think ahead to future stages and how we might perhaps pour some of that time back

we'll communicate with clients and explain that that's been noted and it's been done consciously and it was for the benefit of the creative and the benefit of the overall outcome of the project.

Adam (12:19.339)

Yeah, yeah, no, I see that. And, you know, having that project scope clarified, but then also during the life of the project adjusted or reflected on correctly to the client, you know, is very valuable. And the finance team have access to that information and can provide you with that, can't they?

Rachael (12:36.074)

Yes, yes, so we will do our, everything is driven by time sheets. So if we estimate that one creative concept will take two days of a designer's time, and then the designer logs they've done four days, that then is gonna pull through into the finance surgery showing an overspend, but then we will be able to explain that internally and then have the right client conversations to reassure that was done knowingly

the best outcome on the project.

Adam (13:09.375)

And speaking about timesheets, everyone's favourite subject, well, what do you, do you feel that the information that goes into the timesheets is accurate and complete, or do you struggle with that? Because I know a number of agencies, you know, have this ongoing challenge around that.

Rachael (13:26.986)

Yeah, I think there's a fine line and in all the different agencies I've worked at, we've always completed them differently with different levels of information. I think at a very basic level, you do need the hours to be plugged in. And if on top of that you can have any extra explanation, some notes that the account management team or the finance team can read, that is always helpful because you can see where then those hours differ to what you had estimated.

Generally we are good at completing timesheets and I personally do find them very, very important. We do complete timesheets for all the work we do here, that's client and internal work. I think when people really understand the direct link between timesheets, estimates, invoicing and the ongoing tracking of reporting of that, you get more timesheets completed

and there's better conversations that can happen and ultimately there's a shared responsibility then by everybody and to make sure that you understand your brief, you understand your time allowance and then you understand what time you're logging and conversations can happen around that if the time is over or under the estimate.

Adam (14:45.119)

Yeah, exactly. I think the key is ensuring there's an understanding from the team who are entering the time as to why they're doing it. So it's not just a box ticking exercise. There is actually an understanding of the link that you just explained between time sheets, you know, what you're tracking, billing and getting money in. So that sort of linkage is key, right?

Rachael (15:05.898)

Yes, yeah exactly and I know they can seem like an extra job for everybody at the end of the day or the week and particularly when people let the week slip by it's very hard to recall what you were actually doing.

Adam (15:14.967)

That Friday afternoon fun, isn't it? Yeah.

Rachael (15:18.418)

If someone were to ask me what I was actually doing three weeks ago, I would not know. I think the trick is to keep on top of them and then it's not so much of a big job. But yes, hopefully by being transparent with internal team members and clients around how your budget is tracking makes people realise the importance of completing them as accurately as possible and as frequently as possible.

Adam (15:42.175)

Yeah, no, exactly. And one area that we just touched on there that I'd like to dive into is around billing. And obviously that can link to time sheets. But there's often a shared responsibility again around billing, like whose responsibility is it? Does it sit with account management? Does it sit with finance? And it's always something that...

in the agencies I've been in, we've been able to simplify and that's been something that's reflected well on finance with account management. They've appreciated that reduction of admin between finance and account management. How do you like to see this work best? Because obviously you have the relationship with the clients, but the information around billing often comes from finance. So how do you see it work best in terms of raising those invoices, sending them out, making sure they're accurate, et cetera.

Rachael (16:34.986)

I think one thing that I've kind of learnt over time is that as well as in agencies we have an account management team and a finance team. In many of the client organisations that I work with they also have a similar structure. So we have our day to day client contact and they also then have a finance team. And what I've found is the conversation about the budget.

payment terms, final agreement, even issuing of the PO, will happen between the account manager and the client manager. And then once the client has raised the PO, agreed the scope, agreed the invoicing schedule, as long as nothing changes from that, it then from both sides hands over to the finance team. So you can kind of pass on the information that this is the agreement, these are the stages, these are the dates we're going to invoice these amounts.

here's the PO and then on a monthly basis it's just a case of saying yeah release the invoice exactly in line with the scope, yes release the invoice and then the two finance teams start to coordinate so I think if the right planning is done up front between the account management team member and the respective client team member it's then a very easy and clear instruction to pass on to the finance team who are wanting to manage things on a monthly basis and that shouldn't be done without conversation

there has been any change to it. The account manager should be kind of ticking that box, but it can be a very easy process if the setup's done correctly, hopefully.

Adam (18:12.287)

And you touched on setup there, and I'd be interested when you're onboarding your clients, do you have a setup meeting with finance on both sides, or is it something that you just, you give a name and you hand over? How does it work at the setup stage?

Rachael (18:28.222)

say it's probably more the latter and then separately as I will have conversations with my finance team the client will undoubtedly have conversations with theirs. I haven't been in many meetings where it's been a fully collaborative effort but certainly conversations do need to happen. We like to invoice work as it's done. Some agencies have worked out of invoice to 100% upfront and then recognised on a monthly basis. Some agencies have worked

50 at the beginning of 50 at the end. So different agencies have different ways of doing things, different clients have different ways of doing things. So I think there are definitely conversations, but I find that usually the client team member will speak to the account manager and then we'll both go off and have different conversations with finance and legal and whoever else is involved in kind of setting up those initial contract terms.

Adam (19:22.847)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I guess you wanna make sure that everyone's in the loop and that you're aware of the differences with how that client operates, but it's then not making it too onerous, right, in terms of too many people involved in too many meetings.

Rachael (19:35.134)

Yeah, yeah, and you know, in the majority of cases, our terms and agreements align. There have been occasions where a client has wanted, you know, 90 plus days payment terms, and we've tried to negotiate on that, and this is in this agency and many other agencies. So there's always conversations. But yes, I would say that's the key is communicating around it and just, you know, understanding from what the requirements are from both sides and then

hopefully meeting at a good place in the middle.

Adam (20:09.324)

Yeah, no,

Rachael (20:18.262)

Yes.

Rachael (20:36.446)

Yeah, and that's where personally the finance team are so helpful to us because you know once the project is finished we're on to the next one. So to be, you know, what's the word, so to be...

linked to a project that has finished to try to clear it up and finish it off, it is often something that we will struggle to make the time for. So aligning with the finance team, who we know are there, to stick to the contract terms and chase up the right contacts and client side is so helpful.

Adam (21:10.399)

Yeah, no, that's interesting. And that's a nice segue actually onto the next point around actually collecting the money, because that's obviously, you know, everyone's moved on, you know, we're 90 days on or whatever. And then, you know, money hasn't come in. So how do you work with your finance teams? Are you involved in that process at all? Do you ever get escalation to you or how does it typically work to collect?

Rachael (21:35.19)

Yeah, I mean compliments to the finance team because I'm sure behind the scenes they're doing so much that we never, never see in terms of chasing payments. There'll be the odd occasion when a finance team member will say, you know, is it possible for you to get in touch with the client, you know, this is overdue or there's been a problem here or this has been returned. And at that point, of course I'll connect with my client who probably has no idea because they've handed off to their finance team too. But yes, credit to the finance team

team so a lot of that is done behind the scenes without us really having any idea but on the occasional time when they will come back to us and say is it possible for you to chase on this then that's when I will go to my contact and you know that you're kind of both coming at it coming at it from both sides to see which contact responds first or who's gonna help you.

Adam (22:27.519)

Yeah, that's so important. And I get from a finance perspective, just knowing that you've got someone on the client side, on the account management side with the client, able to escalate to often helps. You know, you don't really want to use that, but if you need to, knowing that person's there and it knows that it's part of their role, that's really helpful.

Rachael (22:48.81)

Yeah, of course, because we know we, myself and the client contact will be the two people who have started this whole project and conversation anyway. So, so yes, absolutely valid to come back to us and join forces back to our respective teams.

Adam (23:03.635)

Yeah, no, absolutely. And then just as we're talking about the end of a project and collecting the money, do you typically have kind of project wrap-up sessions where you look at the final reports on the project from a profitability point of view? I appreciate maybe you do from a client perspective and performance, but in terms of project profitability, do you have those kind of project wrap-up sessions?

Rachael (23:27.114)

Yes, we do. And I think the key actually is that they're not just done at the end of projects. So as we have the monthly finance surgeries, well as well as the monthly finance surgeries, on a weekly basis we are doing budget recs. So we're looking at the time sheets and we're very quickly, again a great Excel sheet set up by the finance team, we're pulling this data into a sheet that shows what the total hours add up to. So on a weekly basis the

account managers are managing the burn rate of projects. On a monthly basis we're checking in with the finance team to make sure that our numbers are correct and voice over anything important, bill what we need to bill, write off what we need to write off etc. Alongside client conversations happening constantly as well and then yes at the end we will have the relevant client conversation and we will document it internally as well so if there is more

has been made for that throughout the course of the projects on the weekly and monthly bases. And then internally we'll try and store that information so that when we come to work on a project that's similar or if we work with this client again on another project, we have those financial learnings with the voiceovers and that's where, to my earlier point, it's not always just about the numbers, it's about the context and the explanation around them. So we do try and document

always get better at budgeting and managing projects.

Adam (25:03.011)

Great, very comprehensive. And, because obviously you talk very fluently and with a lot of financial terms in how you explain things, which is excellent. And you've obviously developed that capability across your career. And I'd be interested, you know, how you did that. How does an account manager develop their financial skills? Is it, did you have training or is it something that from your personal sort of education or is it just something that you've acquired over time?

Rachael (25:31.242)

Yeah, I'd say it's probably something that I have acquired over time and that is because I have always worked in account management. So, you know, starting out in the very beginning, I had no idea what anything meant. And there's still loads that I really don't understand. But as you join and settle into each agency, you quickly or, you know, over time even familiarise yourself with their terminology. Finance is a big part of an account manager's role. There

absolute basics that we must understand and we must be fluent in. I think things like income, revenue, profit, margin, different agencies I've worked at have all used slightly different terminology. So it is important to be close to the finance team in the agency that you're working at and make sure that you are clear on the right ways to speak about different financial aspects. And I think wherever there are opportunities for training to happen between both teams, we should look for those.

outside of training, just regular communication and asking questions if you don't understand something, sharing information on a two-way basis just all helps to get that lingo and info into our minds. And you know, things such as where we add VAT to documents, so you know, because we print a lot of documents, information around things like that is very important to know and that's where we will lean on the finance teams

and invoices and you hope that as and when you have these different conversations you're taking away learnings for the next time you work on a project and you just know a little bit more each time you coordinate with the team.

Adam (27:13.719)

Oh, the intricacies of that. That's, yeah, everyone's favorite topic. Excellent. And I guess, one other question I had around the team and how...

Rachael (27:16.814)

Okay.

Adam (27:25.979)

you work with them because obviously every team works differently, every agency as you say works differently. Do you have targets for your team that are you know focused on you know as well as revenue targets but as well do you have profitability targets, do you have gross margin targets, do you have targets on how they're performing through the life of the project down to bottom line or are they are they primarily targeted on top line targets?

Rachael (27:56.567)

This could be answered differently for each agency that I've worked at. In a previous agency, I don't actually think I've worked at any agency where an individual has had, certainly in the account management team, an individual has had a target, which I think is correct. I think that puts a bit too much pressure on an account manager in an industry where...

some things are worth different amounts, some things demand more time that you don't necessarily get charged for. So I think there's too many intricacies to put a target on individuals. Having said that, I have worked in agencies where there's been a loose rule of thumb in terms of what the expectations are around what an account manager, senior account manager, account director should be responsible for billing on a monthly basis. And that's been helpful in the past in terms of...

how I might resource a team member. So if a team member is working on something and they're only billing 10k a month when the rule of thumb might be 30k, I might look for a project that they can be put on so that it bumps that up a little bit and it usually in the past has worked out that it correlates. At Brunswick we don't have individual targets, we are a one firm with one P&L

Rachael (29:19.928)

collaborative way of working where everyone's kind of in it together looking for the best solutions and the best work for our clients. We're not competing over what to recommend to a client because it suits our department. So that's nice. We actually can put the client solution at the forefront and then build the team around it. So yes, there are agency targets, but it's very much a team effort to meet those.

Adam (29:48.523)

Yeah, yeah, of course. And I agree, I think it's very difficult to have individual targets.

down to profit where someone is not fully responsible and accountable for all of that work. So you're kind of holding them responsible for something they don't control. And that's not the most productive and conducive to good performance, I think. So no, fair enough. We've touched on sort of client finance quite a bit. Just moving across, you mentioned that the other areas that you work on is internal finance. And I'm interested about utilisation

Rachael (30:04.777)

and

Adam (30:23.985)

around utilization on the team and what they're working on. How much is that a focus for you in managing the team? And do you have different sort of expectations about different levels of your team in terms of utilization?

Rachael (30:39.294)

Yeah, and a utilisation is a funny one, isn't it, because it really does rely on people completing their timesheets accurately. And the account manager has a lot of different things on their mind when it comes to completing the timesheets, because we are the one department who are very conscious of what the overall project budget is. So, you know, I'm not suggesting anybody would incorrectly complete timesheets, but I think there's, as with everything, there's that lens of looking, that you have to look through to just assess really what

regardless of what the figures may show. Fundamentally, yes, we do complete timesheets for client and internal work. And I think...

on the whole they're done accurately and then we can see how much of a team member's time is spent on actual client billable work versus internal initiatives which are also equally as important versus, want a better word, downtime, kind of internal meetings, general admin, and they're the areas that we want to be looking at just to make sure that is an accurate reflection

Rachael (31:50.892)

you're looking for account managers and account directors to be between 70 and 80% utilized and then there's that allowance for 20-30% to be for internal meetings, line management, training, etc.

Adam (32:07.091)

Yeah, I think it does differ as you get more senior, doesn't it? Because as you say, you're gonna have more management responsibility as you're a more senior account manager than you do at a more junior level. So your utilization from a client point of view reflects that, right?

Rachael (32:22.462)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, for example, I think I think an account manager in the team is

potentially around that the aim is for them to be 80% utilized, whereas myself, I could be 50 or 60, just because of the responsibilities I have that are there outside of actual client work. So yeah, it's important to understand the level and, and the genuine other responsibilities that team members have. And that, that could be permanently or, or on a, on a seasonal basis. So you do always need to be looking at that and have the context and the extra information around what, what the team members are working on at different times.

Adam (32:35.788)

Yeah.

Adam (32:58.651)

Excellent, excellent. Okay, brilliant. Thank you, Rachael. And just moving on to a section of our podcast that we're calling the Business Book Bonus section, which is where we ask our guests to provide the audience with a recommendation of a business book or other business content that's helped them during their business career. So what would you like to recommend, Rachael?

Rachael (33:21.534)

Yeah, sure. Well, actually, I have to confess, I have not yet read this book, but it comes very highly recommended by our chairman and founder, Sir Alan Parker. So each Christmas, Sir Alan will send a copy of a book to every employee in the company. And it's his it's his recommendation for the year. And he encourages us all to read them. And so on my reading list for this year is a book called Belonging by Owen Eastwood. And and

I understand that in this book he talks of the idea of Whakapapa, which is a spiritual belief that each of us is parts of an unbroken and unbreakable chain of people who share a sacred identity and culture.

You know, I'm all for spiritual beliefs and crazy names for things, so that alone has intrigued me. But genuinely, the idea of teamwork and uniting around a shared belief and just getting the best out of each other resonated with me. So I am looking forward to reading it and will take Sir Alan's recommendation and will be happy to report back on whether it is a recommendation of mine.

Adam (34:33.507)

Absolutely, that's a good one. Okay, we will put a link to that in the show notes. Belonging Owen Eastwood, thank you very much for that. And anything else from your side, Rachael, that we haven't covered before we wrap up?

Rachael (34:51.75)

No, I mean, I've probably made my main point, which is just really about how I really do think it's important that we see each other as teammates. I think it's very easy to kind of eye roll when you have to consider the extra aspect of your job in terms of, you know, finance responsibilities. But with the right attitude and the right team members, you really can partner and you can really benefit each other. And I certainly have seen that evidenced in a lot of the agencies that I've worked at. And so it should be encouraging.

and it should be seen as an important part of an account manager's role to understand finance, to be interested in it and to coordinate with the team of experts who can kind of help and support really.

Adam (35:33.667)

Absolutely, I think you touched on it there with the word partner. So it's a partnership and you know that way lies Lies progress and lies sort of adding value from an account management point of view, finance point of view and also client point of view So that's a good a good point to end on. Thank you very much. Thanks. Thanks for joining Rachael Really appreciate your time your insight and your perspective. Thank you

Rachael (35:49.646)

Yeah.

Rachael (35:57.29)

Aw, thank you for having me!