The Importance of Wellbeing at Work

In this one, I'm excited to be joined by Chris Cummings, the Group CEO and Founder of Wellbeing at Work World, an organisation on a mission to make wellbeing a strategic priority for every business.

I really enjoyed this conversation with fellow Centaur Media Plc alumni Chris, discussing his journey over the past 10 years, inspired by personal circumstances, to fly the flag for the importance of wellbeing at work.

🌟 Some of the most interesting elements were:
✅The impact that true wellbeing can have on a business if leadership takes it seriously and its embedded into the culture;
✅How the integral parts of wellbeing are free - inclusive culture, authentic leadership and being a decent person don’t have to cost anything;
✅The effect that COVID had on this area, as it became a topic that was at the front of everyone's minds, and the challenge to ensure we build on the progress made;
✅Chris’ advice to have a forum where you listen to your employees and if there is a clear trend that many employees are saying to you, act on that and move forward with it;
✅And Chris’ belief, based on global trends that further UK legislation may be imminent, so the importance of embracing and being part of it so we can develop legislation that works for small business.

Transcript

Adam (00:04.398)

Okay, so today I'm here with Chris Cummings, the group CEO and founder of Wellbeing at Work, an organization who are on a mission to make well -being a strategic priority in every organization across the world. Chris, welcome to the Fractional CFO Show. How are you doing?

Chris Cummings (00:21.297)

I'm doing well. Thanks, Adam. And thanks for the invitation. It's great to be here.

Adam (00:25.486)

It's great to have you here. Thanks for coming on. So today we're gonna dive into the importance of wellbeing at work. And Chris, to start with, would you mind giving us a bit of an overview of your career so far? How did you end up founding wellbeing at work?

Chris Cummings (00:44.177)

Yeah, well, I started in a company you'll be familiar with, Centaur. So I spent quite a number of years there and various other companies in the media and event space. I guess just over 10 years ago, my partners, anxiety, depression and subsequent poor treatment at work sort of stopped me in my tracks, really. I saw what was happening at home.

And it motivated me to quit that corporate role and move into doing something myself. And really the mission was to try and educate and inspire leaders, workplaces, organizations to really focus in on well -being at work, particularly mental health and performance and the links to that. So...

So yeah, obviously 10 years ago, it was quite a challenge. There was a lot of knocking on doors. But thankfully that subject has really grown, especially since COVID. And now many organizations take this stuff seriously, which is great to see. So that's a whistle stop tour of me.

Adam (02:04.142)

Excellent, excellent. Well, loads to unpack there, I'm sure. And quite the journey, as you say, and perhaps a good place to start will be with the definition and scope of what we mean when we talk about wellbeing at work, because I guess it could encompass quite a range of areas. So what does wellbeing at work mean for you and for your organisation?

Chris Cummings (02:05.537)

I'm sorry.

Chris Cummings (02:25.777)

Well, I think the biggest myth around wellbeing at work is, is most, well, quite a lot of organisations think, you know, if we can, if we can put on a couple of webinars and, and have a yoga class each week and a bit of fruit, then everything will be okay. For me, you know, wellbeing is, is a state of mind that an individual has. So if you can create a culture,

that is inclusive and welcoming and allowing people to flourish. If you can have leadership that takes it seriously, that wants to provide a great place to work. If you take it to the board and have it as a strategic priority, it can have such a massive impact across the business. So I'm really, and governments see this,

Lots of larger organisations see this. It's taking wellbeing from being that sort of tip box, fluffy exercise that might just tick around the edge, which I call wellness. You know, a yoga class and fruit, that's wellness. That's an individual's wellness and what we can do for each other as individuals. But organisations have a responsibility to create workplaces where people can thrive.

and it's in their interest as well. So I want to move it away from those tactical pieces that many organisations might do to a more strategic approach.

Adam (04:04.398)

Excellent. Okay. And you mentioned at the beginning in your introduction about you've been going for 10 years and COVID has had an impact on how this kind of area is considered. So I'd be interested like holistically, how have you seen it change over the 10 years that you've been operating?

Chris Cummings (04:24.721)

Yeah, I think what we saw during COVID is it doesn't matter who you are or where you're based. COVID had an impact in your life in some way. Some had a lot worse experience than others. But I think sometimes when, you know, it was such a major event that everyone was touched. And I think when we look back over that period and

we saw lots of CEOs, lots of leaders from organizations really pulling out all of the stops to make sure that people were okay, whether that be sending out chairs and desks to make sure people had a place to work at home, really focusing in on the mental health of people because we're all in isolation. And it became such a...

it became a topic that was at the front of everyone's minds because we were all going through that period together. And what we saw is a lot of leaders being impacted directly, whether it be themselves, whether it be a family member or whether it be a close colleague. So it became important to organisations to really step up and deliver. So...

Up until that point, I think there was some wonderful work going on across a number of businesses, many in the banking sector, professional services, legal sector were fully aware of the impact of this and these high performing teams in those organizations. And obviously there was the tech sector as well, if we think of Silicon Valley and where they were 10, 15 years ago.

and the different types of working practices that they had. So I think what COVID did is just bring it into the mainstream. And what we've seen now is every industry taking this seriously and really putting a focus on looking after their people. So it's great to see.

Adam (06:42.318)

Yeah, absolutely. You can certainly from a lay person's perspective, see that shift. one, one thing that I've noticed like yourself, I've moved from a corporate environment to a small business environment over the last few years. And the audience for this podcast are typically small business owners and you know, less than 50 people. what are some, because I guess you've mentioned larger organizations. You mentioned the tech sector, legal professional services banks, you know, those.

types of companies in those industries have large budgets. They're able to sort of ensure, you know, that wellbeing is managed and have often teams to look at it. But for smaller businesses with more limited resources, how have you seen or how would you recommend they start to prioritize wellbeing when perhaps they're not used to doing it or not coming from a large budget, large corporation perspective?

Chris Cummings (07:35.089)

Yeah, it's a really good point and something I hear a lot about. I'm a small business owner myself, so I understand those challenges that a small business will face. And I think sometimes when we look at wellbeing, we automatically think, we're going to have to spend thousands, millions of pounds to make this work. And the simple fact is that a lot of this stuff is free. And, you know, to be an authentic leader.

doesn't cost anything. To create a culture in an organization where people feel welcome and having an inclusive culture doesn't cost anything. Yes, you can have training. Yes, you can bring in outside consultants for this. But actually, we all know how to be decent human beings, I'm sure. And we all want to go to a place of work where we feel

a sense of belonging, where we feel a sense of purpose, where we feel like we're doing something that means something. So, and, you know, again, going back to that original point, this is, this really drills into business performance. So if you see the levels, if you look at things like the Gallup study, where, you know, engagement levels, if you can increase your engagement levels of your people.

the performance and the profitability is significant. And that's not just in large companies, that's in smaller companies. And, you know, I give the example of our own organization. We're a growing small business. There's 20 of us globally. We treat people fairly. We have a good sense of purpose. We have flexibility. We don't have huge budgets to go out and spend on.

on massive projects around wellbeing, but we do look after our people and we're fair with our people. And the results speak for themselves. There is a continual growth and improved performance each year. And that really matters when it comes to small businesses. The other thing I would talk about is that talent attraction. Again, I can talk from personal experience here. We...

Chris Cummings (10:01.297)

we don't have any problems attracting the right talent. People want to come and work for us and that's all age groups and that's all backgrounds and that's all genders. So it's not as if we're just attracting a certain type of person. People want to join us. So I think there's big benefits for all businesses.

Adam (10:26.99)

Okay, great. Lots there that we can unpack. And you mentioned, you know, with regard to the impact of COVID and the impact on talent attraction and the impact on the employees. I'd be anecdotally, it does feel like there's that growing demand from employees and growing understanding from employers around this. Yeah, but what's, you know,

What are you seeing in the space in terms of actual tactics that employers are doing post pandemic in the last few years that have sort of reflected that step change that you talked about holistically?

Chris Cummings (11:10.641)

Yeah, I think the biggest thing and the best recommendation I can give, but the biggest thing that I've seen is employers listening and acting on what employees are saying. So there's no use in seeing a big shiny app that might be really interesting to you personally as a leader, putting that into the organization and saying, right,

off you go, go and use that app. We've done wellbeing because they might not want that. That might not be the solution that they need. So, you know, a lot of companies talk to their employees, whether it be through employee surveys or just as a small business, you know, we have regular get togethers and face -to -face meetups. We had one last week and that gives us the opportunity to really listen to what's going on, how employees are feeling.

what solutions that they feel would be helpful to help them do their job easier. So yeah, I think that's again, it's a free solution. Listen to what your employees are saying and act on it. If there is a clear trend that many employees are saying to you, act on that and move forward with it. So it might not be that shiny app.

even though that's a great solution, it might be something really simple that you can do, whether that be flexibility or giving Friday afternoons off or whatever it might be that really suit your workforce. And then you'll see the results off the back of that.

Adam (12:57.806)

Okay, great advice. I read a recent article you wrote that was looking at some of the legislative developments internationally. I think you mentioned Mexico and UAE and some of the sort of regulations guidelines that have been introduced in those markets.

Obviously a lot of the listeners of this podcast are UK based and you mentioned that perhaps we're not quite as far along as some of those other markets. Is there anything that you see coming down the pipe that small business owners need to be getting prepared for or need to be ready for?

Chris Cummings (13:36.273)

Yeah, so I think when it comes to legislation, I mean, there's always two ways of looking at it. You can wait for the governments to bear down on you as businesses and boy, have they done that over the years. And we don't have our say and we don't have an input. It's just given to us.

what was different in Australia where in the last couple of years they've introduced psychosafe workplaces is the business community were very much part of that conversation. So we have elections in two thirds of the world this year. So I can't predict what's going to happen in terms of legislation in all those different jurisdictions. I think, you know, talking

here in June, just before the UK election, we've all got a pretty good idea what's going to be happening. Is it coming down the tracks? I think it has to. If we think back to 50 years ago when the Health and Safety Act came into legislation, we had, sadly, several deaths on building sites and in manufacturing and in construction before that act was

was put in place. And now we have a, you know, a physical health and safety workplace legislation that works. My hunch is that we are not too far away having something similar around psychological safety. I think there's, you know, I've had various conversations with different MPs and across the EU as well. And I think that's

That's certainly the direction of travel. And if you look at what the trend is across the world, that's certainly developing elsewhere as well. So let's get part of that conversation. Let's start to be part of it so we can mould something that works for smaller businesses. And then we'll develop legislation that works for everyone. I think it's...

Chris Cummings (15:57.777)

I think it's certainly coming. And if we look at the Australia model, you know, it's been in for a couple of years, there have been some pretty hefty fines already. So I do think that this conversation is going to grow. Places like the World Economic Forum are talking about it as well. You know, this is something that is developing quite quickly. So, yeah, I think it's a good thing and it will create better working environments.

And let's be part of that conversation and not be scared of it.

Adam (16:31.15)

Yeah, absolutely. Always better when you can be part of it rather than have it foisted upon you, which is not always the case. And even, even when they pay lip service to that, it doesn't always happen. But, I think, you know, in terms of the, you know, you, you, you touch there about the improved performance that you can get from, some of these practices as well as the sort of stick of legislation. So it'd be great to understand from what you've seen about how small businesses can use.

these kind of practices to, for want of a better term, gain an edge over larger competitors. You know, how can smaller, more nimble companies best take advantage of these and fight against sort of larger budgeted competitors?

Chris Cummings (17:15.889)

Well, it's what small businesses do all the time. And we're always trying to find that edge as a small business owner myself. We can't compete with some of these larger organizations on budget, but being nimble is definitely how we can win. So look, you...

We all know that the best people perform the best results. If you want to attract those great people, you need to be offering some of the things that large organizations may not be able to do. Again, it just depends on the type of workforce you have. But I know from talking to businesses, large, small and everything in between, that when interviews are taking place with candidates, this is coming up.

more and more often. So if the candidate is asking, you know, what's your policy around flexibility? What's the culture like in your organization? What's the purpose of the organization? All of these things, you know, when you and I first joined that West End media company, it was like, how much are you going to pay me and how many holiday days are you going to give me? You know, it was a very basic request. But people and...

Adam (18:31.95)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Cummings (18:37.425)

It often gets lumped to the younger generation are asking for this, but actually I don't think it is. I think it's across the board. We all want more flexibility. We want to have a bit more of a balance. So, you know, how are we going to attract those people? So many of these things are not necessarily going to cost you as a small business. But having that flexibility policy is really important.

And I would say.

Look, the world of work is going to change significantly over the next few years. Technology is, you know, you think of what's happened in the last 20 years, I think in the next three years, the change is going to be even more significant than the last two decades. And we really need to have human -centred organisations because technology is going to...

developed so fast. And human centered organizations put the person at the center of that. So we know that technology is going to be able to do many of the things that we've been doing for centuries. But technology is not going to be able to do some of the human centered work and those skill sets of EQ, emotional intelligence.

are going to be really strong, especially in leadership roles. And we're really going to have to upscale and get the right sort of people in our businesses, whatever size, to combat that.

Adam (20:24.782)

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's interesting. And I wonder what your thought is on there's obviously not, you know, isn't how it was 20, 30 years ago, and things are changing. And it's not always driven by the younger generation, as you say, it's just the way it should be. And you mentioned Gallup before in terms of some of those sort of metrics and as a finance guy that that immediately kind of ticked the box for me like, what, because we're now in a cost of living.

situation, you know, we had COVID, we had the pandemic and we took two steps forward. But I get the feeling that things have slightly shifted back and I don't know what your thoughts on that. So I think it does come back to being able to demonstrate the effectiveness of some of these approaches. So I wondered if there's any kind of specific metrics or specific ways of measuring the impact.

of wellbeing initiatives that you've seen work quite well to help people make that case.

Chris Cummings (21:26.513)

Yeah, well, I would certainly point to the Gallup State of the Workplace report, which they do on an annual basis. And you'll see the levels of engagement that we've got across the whole of the UK in terms of businesses. There was a wonderful study last year from the University of Oxford, which again drilled down into return on investment and the impact.

that wellbeing initiatives are having. And I think it was roughly between 18 and 20 % against your competitors in terms of uplift on productivity and on performance. So that was a really extensive study across the UK in partnership with Indeed. There is a number of reports from McKinsey, again,

Googling McKinsey Workplace Reports. There's a number of great reports from them. Same with Deloitte as well. Again, they do an annual study around workplace wellbeing as well and human sustainability. So the data and the... We also have a number of reports in our hub that I'll happily share with any of your listeners. But...

The data and the evidence is clear. Now, you mentioned around cost of living and budgets and things being squeezed. I guess, you know, that's always the case when budgets are tight. However, the one thing that I keep on hearing leaders saying is we need to increase productivity, we need to have improved performance.

we need to have better numbers. If you look at the UK as an economy, we've had hardly any growth for the last 10, 15 years. Our productivity levels are pretty low. Our performance has been fairly flat. So if you want to unlock that, then I would argue that actually an investment in wellbeing is going to give you a far greater return. And that Oxford...

Chris Cummings (23:49.105)

study, I think it's for every one pound spent, you get six pound back in terms of profit profitability. So, you know, the data is really clear. But that's not by doing the fluffy bits, you know, you've got to have, you've got to put your weight behind this. And that's not spending millions. But it is saying as leaders,

Adam (23:55.214)

Mmm.

Chris Cummings (24:17.841)

This is important to us as a business. We're really going to commit to this over a period of time, not just a couple of webinars and a couple of training sessions. We're really going to commit to this longer term and the results will be outstanding, I promise.

Adam (24:35.726)

Yeah, absolutely. It's as ever, if you just put a poster up in the kitchen, it's not going to work. You need to have, you know, the leadership, the empathy, as you say, the culture needs to sort of reflect it fully rather than just being just being a nod to it. I think that's so true with so many things.

Chris Cummings (24:54.737)

And look, with both, I'm sure, I know how I have, I've worked in organizations where it's pretty toxic. And I've worked in organizations where it's a really, really strong, engaging culture. And if I think back to my performance, how long I stayed at that organization, large or small,

I've worked for a really, really bad small business, a really good small business. I've worked in a really bad big business and a really good big business. But if I think back to performance, I think back to how long I stayed, you know, I was in and out the door that that team needed to then replace me so that, you know, they train me up and then I leave. I give far more loyalty to that.

other company, I'll go the extra mile, I'd work at weekends if you do those extra things. And that's the bit that probably you can't measure. But you know, as a leader, I know my team go the extra mile, every single member of that team goes the extra mile because they feel wedded to what we're doing. And we give them that flexibility after the busy time. So you're not just working.

20 hours a day or whatever every day, you will go that extra mile. So sometimes it's not always on a spreadsheet. And I appreciate your audience would like it all in an Excel, but you can see it. You can see it in a small business. You can see those people who go the extra mile. And if you're getting that in a sustainable way, then that's going to prove to be really strong for the performance of the business.

Adam (26:43.246)

Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Just changing tack slightly and talking about, we mentioned cost of living and there's undoubtedly a link between financial wellbeing, let's say, and mental health. And that's become apparent, I guess, over the last few years, ever more so. I know on the consumer side, Martin Lewis, the money saving expert does some excellent work on that. And so if you look at that and then...

Chris Cummings (26:51.697)

Hmm.

Chris Cummings (26:57.745)

Yep. Yep.

Adam (27:12.238)

think about how that works on the workplace side of things. It'd be interesting to get your view on how that does manifest in terms of the support that businesses can give on the financial stresses and sort of supporting their employees on that, given the nature of our podcast. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Chris Cummings (27:33.777)

Yeah, no, it's a really, really important link and really important topic. Look, if I think back to when I moved to London with my first job, earning peanuts, but still could afford to live in zone two in London, it wasn't the most glamorous of places, but I could afford it. And I could still afford to socialize just. If I look at my nephew now, who's just done something very similar,

60 % of his wages is going on just accommodation. And he's earning pretty well for a grad straight out of uni. So, look, financial wellbeing is a huge topic. And it's not just your young workers who are just starting out. I've also spoken to people who have got...

some significant private school fees in their mid to late 40s. They've got a pretty whacking great mortgage and a lot of their money, they only need one or two things to go wrong in their lives and it can spiral. So look, we don't learn about finance at school. That's a problem. I didn't have any classes around budgeting.

Adam (28:45.55)

Hmm.

Chris Cummings (28:59.857)

or how to manage your finances. I didn't have parents who were particularly clued up either, so I didn't get much direction from them. So it was a case of, you know, learn as you can and learn from your mistakes. I think what's happening now is there's a lot more financial education so people can come in and help all different age groups with that financial wellbeing, which I think is really important.

and also planning for your retirement and pensions and all of those things that we just don't learn about. So I think it's really important. If someone has a financial stress in their lives, they're not going to be performing at work. They're going to be drifting off. They're going to be, you know, it hangs over you. And I've been there and you don't think you're not fully focused on work. So I think it's really important. And again,

Adam (29:33.262)

Hmm.

Chris Cummings (29:56.657)

There's some great providers, not overly expensive, who can come in, spend some time with your teams. And I'm sure there's some wonderful people who listen to this podcast who would have a good idea on how to communicate that as well to their teams. I think it's really important. And again, it's not saying that you have to give everyone a 20 % pay rise. It's just reinforcing is we actually care. We understand.

And look, we might not be able to do all the things that you're asking for, but we can help and give you some guidance.

Adam (30:34.67)

Yeah, I think absolutely. And just a couple of things from my own experience. I know when I recently ran a program on budgeting and long -term financial planning for one of my clients, not something that I do as regularly, but they asked for it and I did it. And it was so well received by the staff that I did it to. And they really benefited from it. It wasn't hugely expensive, but it was tailored and personalized and something that wasn't necessarily

sort of part of their day to day, but they benefited from it personally. And actually most of the questions were about their personal circumstances and you know, it was incredibly useful. And the other thing just for anyone listening out there who may have a pension provider or pensions broker for their company and their business, they will often come in and do courses, do training, do education as part of what you pay anyway. So you can get these kind of...

expert advisors coming in on pensions or on a particular area linked to the suppliers that you're currently working with. So definitely check that out. I think just changing tax slightly and it will kind of linked but one of the concerns that I have heard from employers talking about financial stresses in the workplace is that element of privacy or that element of staff not wanting

Chris Cummings (31:41.553)

Absolutely.

Adam (32:01.39)

to sort of own up or explain or discuss it with their employers. It may be a British thing, but it's definitely something that I've heard. So it'd be great to hear from your experience, how would you encourage employers to handle this so that problems can be surfaced, but it's done in a respectful and effective way that supports employees, gets that problem out there and potentially talking about it without infringing on their privacy.

Chris Cummings (32:32.337)

Yeah, it's a good point. I think, again, it's how we do these things. If we get everyone in a room and said, put your hand up if you've got any financial stress, then people are going to keep their hands down. Having an external provider coming in, having educational workshops that have Q &As at the end of it, or have private spaces where people can go and have a one -to -one conversation.

I guarantee every company has at least a couple of employees that are having financial stress at the moment. It's a huge topic. And if they're not sharing it, they're not performing because it's hanging over them. So provide that safe space, have an external talker or speaker, have an expert coming in offering one -to -one sessions where...

It's clear that it's not going to get back to management, whatever you say,provide that. And again, it comes back to that culture. If you've got an open culture where people feel safe to speak out, then you're more likely to have people feeling comfortable to be able to say something. So psychological safe workplace is the way forward for all of this.

Adam (33:55.95)

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, great stuff. Just sort of, I guess, final question on this section. Just around, you mentioned before about attracting and retaining staff. And I'm interested in, you said for yourself, like how you've developed this kind of brand, I guess, which people want to work for you. You've got a good reputation in the marketplace.

Are there any kind of practical steps you can give to smaller startups about how to develop that brand specifically? Yeah, you can put those initiatives in place, but how do you cement it and establish that reputation?

Chris Cummings (34:36.689)

I think shouting about what you're doing and telling the world. If you're having, if you're doing, and again, you can go on LinkedIn and find these pretty easily. But when there's World Mental Health Day, lots of organizations are telling the world about what they're doing. Their leaders will speak openly about how open their culture is, how inclusive it is.

continual messaging from all areas of the business externally. It's part of that employer brand that you're trying to build. I think leadership play a huge role. So I speak openly about, you know, I show vulnerability on a regular basis. I make it a safe place to be in and we attract talent through that because they can see from

externally that it's a decent place to work. We're not perfect. We have our own challenges and every company does. But you will find the right types of people if you can communicate that externally as well as internally. I do a weekly video to the whole team every Thursday afternoon. Employees will tell friends, they'll tell...

others about the working environment that they're in and we try and be as transparent as possible both internally and externally and hopefully that builds up trust and it creates a psychological safe environment.

Adam (36:20.206)

Absolutely, that's great. Yeah, shouting about it, being authentic, being transparent and having empathy with your staff and being vulnerable and open as a leader. I think those are some great tips. Excellent, well, moving on to what I call our business book bonus section, which is where we ask.

Chris Cummings (36:36.017)

I love this by the way. I do love this.

Adam (36:42.99)

We ask to provide a recommendation for the audience of a business book or any kind of business content that's helped you during your business career. So Chris, what would you like to recommend to our audience?

Chris Cummings (36:57.713)

Well, I'm going to be greedy and recommend three, if you don't mind, because I couldn't narrow it down to one. But I love this feature of your podcast, Adam, and I'm going to be checking out all of the others and picking up recommendations. So I'm sure you've had all three of these before, but 4 ,000 Weeks was a game changer for me in terms of time management and just a general business book.

Adam (37:01.998)

Absolutely.

Adam (37:22.35)

Mm -hmm.

Chris Cummings (37:27.121)

If you're working globally, which we are, the Culture Map is an awesome book for that. And then a bit cliched, but High Performance Podcast is definitely something I listen to. So, so sorry, I've been greedy there and I'm sure you've had those before, but they're my recommendations.

Adam (37:49.198)

That's quite all right. It's always good to have a few high performance podcasts. We've definitely had before the other two we haven't. So that's good. That's great. well, thank you very much for that. And yeah, I'll put links to those, those three in the, in the, in the show notes, as well as those hub articles. If you want to send me the links through, I can add those as well. so is there anything that we haven't covered Chris, that you'd like to say before we wrap up or where can, where can people find you if not?

Chris Cummings (37:54.577)

OK.

Chris Cummings (38:17.009)

So our website is wellbeingatwork .world. So feel free to get in touch. And I'm Chris Cummings on LinkedIn. I would also say as mainly a financial audience, think about how you can weave this in and don't dismiss a small investment on how this can have a big impact on your organization. And yeah, I'm happy to...

talk to anyone if they want to challenge me on any of these points. But yeah, feel free to get in touch. I'm freely available.

Adam (38:56.43)

Excellent, excellent. I think any right -minded person listening will appreciate the data and the stats you've said and won't be challenging you, but that's good to know that they can if you're open to that. Well, thank you very much for joining me today, Chris. I really appreciate your insight, your perspective and your time. Thank you.

Chris Cummings (39:14.609)

Thanks very much, Adam.