Rocks and Ages 2

How old is the earth? What shape is it? Was there ever a worldwide flood? Simple questions for some. For others? Points of friction - and contention - between faith and science.

Mattea concludes her visit with an overview of her life as a geologist, and how (and why) she uses laser ablation inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry. (Hope I pronounced that correctly.)

Thanks for listening. Share with your friends. Find this and more at cheynemusic.com/podcast.

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MAKING OUR WAY - A McMahon/Cheyne Podcast

Rocks and Ages 2 (Season 1; Episode 10) - 1/17/24 

ROB: So how old is the earth?

[laughter]

JIM: It’s 6,000 years old. It's 4,004 BC. It's in the margins of my Ussher's Bible.

[laughter]

MATTEA: The consensus is 4.5 billion years old.

ROB: Billion years, yeah.

MATTEA: So, and even on my master's, I dated a lot of the rocks I was working on for my master’s. So I can tell you for sure with what I did, the rocks I was working on were 2.7 billion years old. So I have personally dated a lot of rocks, so I know it has to at least be older than that. So 4.5 sounds about right to me.

JIM: It sounds, like, an answer to your social life. “I've dated a lot of rocks.”

[music begins]

JIM (voice-over): Last week, the ever effervescent Mattea McRae thrilled us with stories of the emerald mines of Colombia, the gold fields of Ontario, her encounters with bears and cougars, and her inexplicable decision to dive into a frozen lake. Today, we conclude our conversation as we compare the geologic record with stories from ancient texts. How old is the earth? What shape is it? Was there ever a worldwide flood? Plus, she will explain what “shift work” is really like. (I must pronounce that carefully.) And I get to look up terms, like, “laser ablation inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry.” (Yes! One take!) So, grab a cup of coffee, grab a comfortable chair, and grab a pencil, too. Be ready to take notes, because class is in session.

[music ends]

JIM: Would you expect to find any mineral, that's not earthbound, that would be so different from earth? Like, there would be minerals we haven't discovered yet? I mean, is it all still based on our periodic table? Is it all going to be done that way?

MATTEA: I think it - I mean - I don't know exactly. It depends. My understanding is Mars is very similar to Earth besides that we lost, like, the magnetic field around it. So that's why, like, all the solar winds can come in and strip all the atmosphere. So it's so cold and barren because you don't have the magnetic field. So I'm pretty sure - I can't say this with certainty - but you wouldn't discover anything new. It's all came from the same, like…

ROB: Stars.

JAN: Yeah, from the stars.

ROB: Yeah.

MATTEA: …you said the big bang. When the big bang happened, like, you know, it was all the same, like, material being used to form these planets. I'm sure there's maybe the ratios could be different, but I don't think we'd be discovering any new minerals or metals that we don't already have on Earth. Maybe different quantities, like, maybe there, you know, you can find a lot more of something, but I don't think you'd find anything new.

JIM: Right.

JAN: Go ahead.

ROB: No, I was just gonna say I concur with that.

JAN: I concur.

ROB: Yeah.

JIM: Yeah, my geology is kind of limited because in what you would call middle school - it was junior high in Michigan at that time - and we had the guy who was doing our science class was actually the gym teacher. [laughter] And they needed someone else to be in the room, right? And then we had a test one day, and he asked us about all these different kinds of rocks and we raised an objection. “You never talked about rocks.” He said, “Well, they were sitting over there on the counter the whole time. You just had to go look at them.” So I might have a rather incomplete geological knowledge. So the volcanoes, they're going to give you, like, igneous rocks, right?

MATTEA: Yeah, that's correct.

JIM: Okay, here in Florida, we're going to get a lot of sedimentary rocks, which means things have just settled down. And then you've got metamorphic rocks, right?

MATTEA: Yeah.

JIIM: Are there other categories that I might have missed in the eighth grade?

ROB: Those are the main ones.

MATTEA: No, you covered them all. You did a good job.

JIM: So, what I'm asking again with the off-planet stuff, would you expect any sort of processes that we know to produce any kind of rocks other than one of those three categories?

MATTEA: No, I mean, that's, like, it. They're very broad categories. So, all, like, you know, igneous just has some type of, like, volcanic or, like, you know, activities, like, it's say, like, metamorphic just means, like, they underwent high pressure and heat. So they're very broad categories. So I really think you could probably classify any different, anything new - even if we found a new rock, I'm sure it could somehow fall under one of those categories. But again, I don't think I don't think we will. But maybe. You never know.

JIM: Yeah, I'm just trying to demystify the cosmos a bit, that it…

MATTEA: Okay.

JIM: …the processes that we see here on Earth are very likely the processes you would see anyplace - find anyplace.

MATTEA: Yeah, well I mean, yeah, like, I feel - I don't know how accurate this is - but I kind of view Mars as, like, what Earth could be, you know, billions of years late, like, it's, you know, it's been stripped away. It's kind of, like, a - it's, like, that colder. It's further away from the sun, obviously, but it just it’s - it's colder. It's been stripped away. There's not a lot of, like, plate movement. So everything's kind of flat. It's, like, like Venus is still, like, highly, like, eruptive, like, it's, like, all volcanoes going off. So that could be kind of similar to what, like - like, when Earth was just forming, like, so the Archean is, like, the oldest, kind of, like, time period of of Earth. So, when the Earth was just forming, everything was super hot and molten and volcanoes were going off and everything was super - not liquidy, but because of the temperature, everything was very fluid. So Venus is kind of more of like  what Earth, you know, was in its earliest stages. So kind of everything that you see in the the solar system, I think is pretty you can relate it back to Earth somehow. 

JAN: See, that's what's fascinating to me, what Jim's saying is. We think - I always think about space as somehow “other,” but in truth, it's - it’s all the same stuff, just in a different…

MATTEA: Yeah.

JAN: …location under different pressures. So, I - this has been fascinating to me to think about it, like, that. So thank you, Mattea, for that. That's been great.

ROB: They could have asked me. They could have asked me…

MATTEA: I am not an expert on planet [unintelligible].

ROB: …I could have told them.

DEE: So, I'm sorry, I'm going to go off topic. Well, kind of off topic. You were raised in The Salvation Army, like the rest of us here.

MATTEA: Yes, I was.

DEE: How did pursuing your career, and what you were exposed to, perhaps change some ideas you had about life and what you were raised thinking, believing, different things like that?

MATTEA: Yeah, I mean, I don't think it really changed anything fundamentally. I think when you go into, like, STEM, any sciences, the main thing that I think the teachers want you to get out of it is critical thinking and how to properly research any topic…

ROB: Amen!

MATTEA: …really, like, be able to look at something and really, like, analyze it. Know if you're not understanding something, you have to go to a different place to look at it at a different point of view. So I think if anything, it just actually made me be able to - I guess - research the Bible in a different way, like, before, I think I just kind of read it. I didn't understand anything. I'd close it. I kind of move on. So, I think after I really developed my research and critical thinking skills, I got really into reading kind of historical books about biblical times or biblical characters. Like, I really enjoyed looking at the Bible in a different sense than just reading it, but, you know, looking at different authors, whether they're - both religious and non-religious and kind of what was going on politically at the time, like, how did they think? So I think that actually helped me with understanding the Bible itself just by looking at it at a different view. But, like, I don't think, like, just because you're in science, it has to take away from your faith or anything. I remember - I don't think I remember the quote exactly - but Dr. King has this really good one. It was something, like, "science investigates, religion interprets." Like, the two are complementary. They don't have to be rivals or something. I can't remember the exact quote, but you guys can look it up. And it's, like, a really, like, I really liked that, you know, they're complementary. You don't have to take away something from one or the other to believe in science or religion.

JAN: That’s a great answer, Mattea. Thank you. It is. It's wonderful.

ROB: So how old is the earth?

[laughter]

JIM: It’s 6,000 years old. It's 4,000 BC. It's in the margins of my Ussher's Bible.

[laughter]

MATTEA: The earth has been dated, I think there was, it was something in the Northwest Territories - it was dated by a mineral in Australia, I think a rock, or vice versa. So the consensus is 4.5 billion years old.

ROB: Billion years, yeah.

MATTEA: So even on my master’s, like, I dated, like, a lot of the rocks I was working on for my master’s. So I can tell you for sure with what I did, the rocks I'm working on were 2.7 billion years old. So I have personally dated a lot of rocks. And so I know it has to at least be older than that. So 4.5 sounds about right to me.

JIM: It sounds like an answer to your social life. “I've dated a lot of rocks.” How do you date them?

MATTEA: You use isotopes. So I use zircon, they're called - it's a type of mineral, it's called zircon - so within the zircon you date the uranium and lead isotopes. So the whole, you know, parent half-life decay. But I was using the really big, I don't know if it's a point saying, but I was using the TIMS [Thermal Ionization Mass Spectrometry] method and LA ICP MS [Laser Ablation Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry]. So they're just different ways of dating. So I used multiple methods. So using lasers to shoot them at…

ROB: Cool.

MATTEA: …a little laser…

ROB: Cool.

MATTEA: …at a mineral and you figure it out that way.

ROB: Yeah. 

JAN: That’s cool.

JIM: So we were up in Newfoundland last year, and Jan and Rob got to see the Tablelands…

JAN: Yeah.

MATTEA: Yeah.

JIM: …which are an aberration. What is going on up in Gros Morne National Park? You have this giant, orange, Mars-like mountain there. What is going on with the Tablelands?

MATTEA: So it's an obducted, meaning it was an oceanic plate that got pushed up…

ROB: Pushed up.

MATTEA: …and kind of flipped onto the continent. And so it's an ophiolite sequence, which basically means that what you're seeing is what the mantle looks like. That's the composition of the mantle. So it has that really, like, red, dusty, like, Mars. Nothing really grows there because the rocks itself are - they’re creating fluids that are very basic, I believe, and so there's not a lot of life that can go. So it definitely has that Mars vibe. But it's just what the mantle looks like. 

JIM: Well, it's more than just a vibe, isn't it? Isn't the composition of the Tablelands very similar, if not the same as, Mars?

MATTEA: Yes, it is. It's incredibly similar to what they believe Mars is composed of. They think Mars is composed of different, like, ultramafics, so mostly peridotites. So, you know, we'll have scientists use the rocks there to do research on what they think could be happening on Mars. So one of my undergrad professors - she was doing research on, you know, if microorganisms could be on Mars because we do see them in the Tablelands. So there's a lot of research. I think the astronauts even were doing so. I don't remember correctly, I think the astronauts might have visited the tablelands just to take a look around.

ROB: Yeah.

MATTEA: But, yeah, no, it's a good analogy for Mars.

JIM: So when we think geology, we're thinking Earth. Have you ever had any interest in any off-planet geology? Like, asteroids, the moon, any of the rocky planets?

MATTEA: It's very interesting. And I know a lot of people think, like, everyone kind of jokes about it, but, like, the next kind of exploration in geology could be mining meteorites. Again, that’s…

JIM: Right.

MATTEA: …I’m sure very far into our future. But we do know, like, there's a lot of nickel and a lot of elements we would really…

ROB: Yeah.

MATTEA: …like to have. So I haven't done any, but maybe down the line, I think it would be a very interesting field of study to do. I think we'll be tackling the ocean floor, though, before we get to, like, meteorites as a source of metals.

DEE: So is there an opportunity that we might be visiting you on the Space Coast here in Florida?

MATTEA: [laughs] On the what?

DEE: The Space Coast, where NASA is.

MATTEA: Oh, yes. I mean…

DEE: I'm your training to go up…

MATTEA: … I would, like, that. I think it’d be pretty cool. I personally would not be on the first ships, but I think it would be a cool, cool thing to look at.

JAN: So when we were in Newfoundland again, which was awesome, you took everybody to Mistaken Point. So we know about the McRae…

ROB: Theory.

JAN: …you know, McRae theories.

MATTEA: [laughs]

JAN: Well, I know about the McRae theories. Can we just talk a little bit about Mistaken Point, why that's important, and what the theories are about the origins of the fossils there?

MATTEA: Yeah. So Mistaken Point - it gets its name because of the shipwrecks. They mistake it for another coast. And so they miss their turn off and they crash into the ocean - or into the rocks. So that's how it gets its name. But the cool thing geology-wise at Mistaken Point is the fossils that are there. They're I believe they're the oldest in North America, Ediacaran fossils. So and they're quite big, like, you and you see a lot of them, you don't really get the same content anywhere else in North America, at least, like, they're these gorgeous, like, long, like, they're saying they're they're plants, like, deep water. Who knows? I think they're still doing research. I won't give my…

ROB: They’re - they’re animals. They think they're deep water animals.

MATTEA: They think they're animals.

ROB: Yeah.

MATTEA: Yeah, they think they're deep water animals because they - they’re saying they would be, like, filter feeders. So it's, like, deep water. But yeah, there's some theories being thrown around.

[laughter]

JIM: So what's your - what’s a geologist's relationship to paleontology?

MATTEA: I mean, you can be a paleontologist and that is all you study.

JIM: It's kind of, like, a geology-biology-botany sort of mix, right?

MATTEA: Yeah, it's a hybrid, kind of. I personally, like, I've only, like, I can't talk much about it because I took, like, a course on it in second year undergrad. And it wasn't - just a lot of memorization. So I personally didn't love paleontology. I thought I would because I thought it was going to be like, you know, Jurassic Park and seeing all these great big dinosaur bones. I was like, “Oh, this will be cool.” And all you're really looking at are these, like, little turbidites, these micro fossils, and little things. I'm like, “Not as interesting as I thought.” [laughter] So, I can't talk a lot about it because I do not know a lot about it. But some people I'm sure find it very interesting.

ROB: Mistaken Point was really interesting because it's flat. It's a flat surface and there's a couple of layers of it. And it goes on even beyond what we were able to - to walk on. But to take your shoes off, you have to walk in your stocking feet. And, yeah, they're just all over right on the surface. You can see the different patterns of these plants or animals.

JAN: Yeah.

ROB: They say animals. We'll see.

[laughter]

JIM: As a musician, one of the things I love to do is find THE concert I want to go to and set it aside. So, like, this Christmas, I got a Christmas gift: going to see Florida Orchestra doing the Elgar variations, Enigma variations. It’s, like, OK, I can't wait to do that. What does a geologist look forward to? Are there places in the world you'd like to go? Things you'd like to see you haven't seen yet that are -  this is just what I want to do to enrich my experience?

MATTEA: I would love to see an active volcano. I've a friend -  the other day, he was in Guatemala and he was showing me videos and he was, like, right there. And, like, the volcano was, like, going off. It was really spectacular. So that's definitely on my bucket list is to see an active volcano. And if you die, then I think it's a good way to die as a geologist. [laughter] You know what I mean? Like, I feel, like, it would really make sense.

DEE: You need to visit Pompeii.

MATTEA: So, if it happened, it happened.

JAN: Oh, Mattea, your grandmother is going to die.

DEE: Yes.

ROB: You know, you're not too…

MATTEA: It’d be a good way to go.

ROB: You’re not too far from Iceland where you are right now.

MATTEA: Yeah. Yes. I yeah, I've heard - I saw that one too. Yeah, it's definitely - I’m going to have to plan a trip soon. There's a couple going off right now. So maybe in a bit, I'll get to, uh…

ROB: All right. Don’t die.

MATTEA: …live out my fantasy.

ROB: Don’t get too close.

MATTEA: Yeah, hopefully not.

JIM: I said in another podcast, one of the things of going to Hawaii was I'd be able to see an active volcano, and they had all shut down before we got there. They had been going on for decades and we land. “No, nothing. Nothing to see here.” So we're going to try Iceland next.

MATTEA: Yeah, that's a good one.

DEE: So there's an active one in Iceland? You can…

JAN: Yeah.

DEE: …give us some tips on where to go.

MATTEA: Oh, for sure.

ROB: When we were on the Big Island in Hawaii in 2002 - 3. We were standing real close to a lava flow. Just a - it was just a small one from some eruption that was going on at the time. But that was cool.

JAN: It was really neat. We got to watch the lava go into the ocean. So it's how the island…

MATTEA: Oh, yeah.

JAN: - oh, it’s really neat - you know, the island’s growing all from these eruptions. And it was nothing scary or disruptive, like, what you're talking about. It was just lava flowing.

ROB: Yeah.

MATTEA: I want to see the big ones.

ROB: Yes, it wasn’t any - yeah, this was very mild.

JAN: My question here is: Um, I know you're a reader and this is one of the things that I connect with you on. So I just wonder what was your favorite book that you read maybe last year and, like, why?

MATTEA: Oh, my gosh, that's so hard. I've started reading a lot of Kate Quinn, going into, like, The Diamond Eye I really enjoyed. It was, like, a Russian spy during World War Two. But I don't know if that's my favorite. I started reading, like, The Witcher - it’s so good - I, like, the whole fantasy. I also enjoy - I feel, like, I just have such a huge variety, like, I reread, like, The Picture of Dorian Gray, which is also one of my favorite classics. So, like, I really enjoyed that one. I don't know if I could pinpoint my favorite book.

JAN: I actually like that, Mattea, that you read all over the map. And that's - you - when we were up there, you showed me one book - oh, gosh, what was it about? - I mean, it was about, like, the life of Jesus or what was that?

MATTEA: Oh, yes. Zealot: the Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth. That was, yeah, actually, that was probably up there with one of my favorites. I love the author. He, like, is very well read, PhD and, like, biblical Greek and everything. And he did a really interesting piece on, like, the historical version of Jesus, like, he kind of - you know, he’s religious, but he's kind of setting aside all, like, the religious aspects and was fully focusing on what do we know of the historical figure, like, the Romans kept such detailed records. So we know a lot about that time, and, like, the political turmoil and what was going on. So he kind of starts with almost just, like, the time period, like, kind of placing him in this period of time and kind of expanded from there. So I really enjoyed that one. I really recommend it to anyone. Yeah, that was very, very interesting.

JAN: Thanks, Mattea.

JIM: Okay, talking about books: Neil deGrasse Tyson has a book called Astrophysics for People in a Hurry. Okay? So, you…

MATTEA: Okay.

JIM: …read that and it kind of engages your mind and then you think, okay, I want to learn more about this. So his book is kind of introductory like that. If I had someone saying, “Okay, most of what Mattea is saying is going over my head. I heard there were some rocks someplace; something about helicopters.” If we wanted some sort of way of talking about like, is there a “geology for people in a hurry” sort of book that you’ve - that know about?

MATTEA: There's definitely - there's, you know, Geology for Dummies; you scan the chapters. I'm a more visual learner. I love, like, if you go on, like, National Geographic's, like, any of their websites or magazines, they do a lot of really cool geology pieces. I mean, the Internet, though it’s a dangerous place, is a very useful place. And you can find, like, on YouTube, just, like, if you're interested in anything, there's plenty of channels that go over a more broader sense. But I'm always been a fan of National Geographic. They actually had one of our first textbooks in our undergrad and it has lovely photos of everything. And it makes it even more exciting than it might be.

JIM: All right. Let me just tease out a couple more things, then. Worldwide flood. Yes or no?

MATTEA: Worldwide flood?

JIM: Yeah.

MATTEA: Oh, I have the book I was talking about before. I haven't actually read it yet, but, so I can't I can't get my take on that one.

JIM: Well, now - okay.

MATTEA: Are you talking about Noah’s?

JIM: When a geologist is told there was a universal flood - the entire earth - up above the highest mountain - was covered with water. Do you find evidence of that in - in your field?

MATTEA: You find evidence of floods - of very large floods. Did it encompass the entire world? Maybe not. But I think if it encompassed a large enough of one person's particular world that they view, it could very much look, like, the entire world was flooded.

ROB: Yeah.

JIM: Right, right.

ROB: Good answer.

JAN: That is a good answer.

[laughter]

JIM: Okay, something else. Newfoundland. I'm holding you responsible for Newfoundland, though you're from B.C., but I'm going to hold you as a spokesman for Newfoundland. You go to Fogo Island. They have one of the four corners of the flat earth. The earth…

MATTEA: Yup.

JIM: …flat, right?

MATTEA: Totally. 100% flat. [laughter]

JIM: 100%. [laughter]

MATTEA: Do you really not know this? Did you learn something else? Anything else is wrong.

JIM: From where I'm standing, it all looks flat.

MATTEA: Yeah, must be true then. [laughs] No, our entire - everything related to geology, all of our theories of plate tectonics, of really anything of, like, how the mantle is, how we get volcanoes. If the earth isn't round, then that throws a lot of things in disarray. So I feel, like, we can fairly confidently say we do have a sphere. But you never know. You never know. You gotta keep an open mind.

JAN: Mattea, I love you. I'm just going to put that right out there. You're just the most delightful person I know. [laughter] Oh my gosh, I miss you.

MATTEA: I miss you guys too. I'm going to have to come visit soon.

ROB: Yes.

MATTEA: Do you want a serious answer?

DEE: Well, that was pretty serious.

[laughter]

JIM: No, no, no, no, no. We're not looking for that. I’m just, um - earlier you were talking about the importance of critical thinking. Then you were talking about a flood could look worldwide if it's just from your own perspective. And then from where I'm standing, the earth does look flat. So, what can we talk to people who might have, I don't want to say solipsistic, but their own point of view of “this is what I believe, here I am. I don't want some kid going off to college, having her faith ruined, and then coming in telling me a bunch of this stuff that is just going to undermine what I believe.” And then earlier we're talking about something that reminded me of something that Stephen Jay Gould wrote about when he was talking about the things standing side by side. He used the term non-overlapping magisterium, that the world of faith, the world of science are looking at different things, you know. You have people who can respond to you - the ideas you've presented - as a threat to their worldview. What can you provide to any of our listeners, anyone you meet every day, to say, well, let me encourage you to take a look at this. I can already completely confirm what I believe with a very particular Google search.

MATTEA: Yes.

JIM: You know, like, some of the flat earthers, I don't take seriously. I think they're trolls. [laughter] But you have another take on that - that I'm very interested in getting to.

MATTEA: Yes.

JIM: Why do people gather into these fringe ideas and seem almost to revel in the disdain others cast at them?

MATTEA: Yeah. I mean, so when I - I’ve seen, like, a documentary and a couple of videos on flat earthers and, you know, a lot of times they'll have conversation with scientists and, you know, they try to express their viewpoints. And, I mean, when you - when you listen to them and I'm sure some believe, but I do think a lot of especially flat earthers, it's, like, that sense of community that they're striving for, like, they like feeling supported. They like having their network. And as soon as people are so negative and condescending towards them, it just further kind of confines them in their echo chamber. And as soon as someone's condescending and really mean to them, then they don't want to hear any other viewpoints. So I think the sense of community is what a lot of those people are striving for. But I think to get them out of that is to be polite and to be, like, respectful of everyone's viewpoints. Again, I think just because you're coming from a place of faith or, you know, religious background, university is not your enemy. Education is not your enemy. It gives you a lot of critical thinking skills, and can open up your - your world and what you think. But it's not - it’s not kind of trying to convert you into being anti-religion or, you know, it's not - the world isn't evil. Sometimes they just want to teach you new things and new ideas, and you can get another community, not, you know, you're not leaving one behind, you’re just spreading your - spreading your wings and getting people with different viewpoints. And I think that's very important. I always try to - if I have a very solid belief on something, I like to look at the other side. I like to see what is their side. And a lot of times you’re, like, “OK, I can see where they're coming from.” Maybe I'm still not fully agreeing, but I think it is important to be able to understand the other side. And I think university, and science in general, gives you a lot of skills that helps you with your critical thinking and how to properly research anything, especially on the Internet. You have to be so careful and - and make sure you understand where the - the people who are you're getting your information from. What do they have in that specific? What's their game? What are they in? But on anything, on any side.

JIM: Yeah, that last two minutes are going to be the opening of the show.

JAN: It’s perfect. It was perfect.

ROB: Yeah, it was good.

JAN: Oh, my gosh, Mattea, you have such a - there’s a lot I would say just personally to you that I will do separate from here. But I'm so impressed. I'm so impressed with your joy of life, with how you think, with what you do, just with how you approach it all. It’s - I look at you and I see this young person who smiles all the time, who looks, like, her aunt Dee, and I would never know there was so - not that Dee doesn't think too, because this is going to sound bad.

DEE: I’m her favorite.

JAN: Yeah. There is so much going on in your head that is impressive to me, and would make me want to sit down and share a cup of coffee with you and just - which is kind of what we've done here this morning.

MATTEA: What - yes, when we'll have to do in person again. I love you guys. I'm missing out with you guys, too.

JAN: Oh, thank you.

JIM: This is not a live show. We record this and present it. So I'm just thinking that your conversations so far, Mattea, are sparking some questions in listeners’ minds. And just a reminder to our audience, we do have a Listener Line, which is at cheynepodcast@gmail.com - Cheyne spelled C-H-E-Y-N-E. And I should also note that we're doing transcripts of our shows now and posting those online at the CheyneMusic website. And the links to our email line and other things are available in those transcripts. Suppose our listeners wanted to ask you something. Would you be willing to field some questions? If someone emailed us the question and said, “I really wish you had asked Mattea about this or that,” would you be willing to answer our listeners with any sorts of questions?

MATTEA: Yes, I would love that. I also always want to encourage anyone going into geology. If you're kind of trying to figure out what you want to do, if you're in high school and you don't know what you want to do, look at geology. We're actually, like, the industry now is very old. There's going to be a lot of jobs coming up. And if you like the outdoors, if you like science, it is an excellent career path, that you can come to Canada and the states, like, Colorado. Nevada has some amazing deposits out there, and you get to travel and go all over the world. So I would always encourage anyone, and if anyone wants to talk to me about it, I would love to encourage more people in geology. So yeah, I'd be totally willing to answer any questions.

JIM: Okay, some trivia stuff. Have you ever seen the Burgess Shale?

MATTEA: I've seen an imprint of it in a museum.

JIM: Oh, okay. All right. So they do some sort of cast of it and they present it that way.

MATTEA: Yeah…

JIM: Oh, that’s amazing.

MATTEA: …they do cast and they have them in different museums.

JIM: Yeah. Is it accessible?

MATTEA: Pardon?

JIM: Is it accessible? Can you get to the Burgess Shale? Or do you need one of your helicopters to get you there?

MATTEA: It's a bit of a hike. I haven’t myself, but it is a hike, but you can see it yourself.

JIM: So your job - you're working for, like, two weeks, 16 days, something like that. Then you get two…

MATTEA: Yeah.

JIM: …weeks off. What do you plan to do with your time off? Like, this time off, you're with your grandmother there in St. John's. So your next two weeks, do you have plans? I remember once you decided New York was going to be it. What do you do?

MATTEA: Yeah, I mean, I have, I have my next rotation - or the next one after, I'm not quite sure, I might be moving to Vancouver. So the next couple might just be me settling into Vancouver, but I have a trip to Honduras with my family planned in - what is that? - April. Me and my other friends are planning Portugal and Scotland…

ROB: Oh, awesome.

MATTEA: …in off rotations. So yeah, I have a lot of plans coming up. So I'm very excited for this year.

JIM: This is to tag on to your plug for “go into geology.” So let me see if I've got this right. When you're on the job, all of your expenses, where you're staying, everything like that, the company takes care of.

MATTEA: Yeah. When you're, when you are, like, they fly me from, like, right now, they're flying me from Newfoundland. They fly me, they’ll fly me from Vancouver. So they pay for your transportation. Once you there - are there, we have, I mean, I personally have amazing accommodations. These cute cabins right on a lake in the summertime. We're swimming every day. Now we're going to go skiing and skating. So they cover all your accommodations. We have cooks that cook for us.

DEE: Oh, how nice.

MATTEA: Monday through Friday. And so they - they pay for our food. If you buy groceries or anything, they cover that. So you, you make a decent salary. And when you are there, you don't spend anything. So you save a lot of money too.

JIM: And then the company gets you to where you're going for your time off.

MATTEA: Um, yeah. I mean, that's dependent on the company. They, they probably won't fly all the way to Australia, but they'll, they'll, you know, send you to maybe an equivalent destination.

ROB: So…

JIM: Okay.

ROB: …so, shift happens, right?

MATTEA: Pardon?

JAN: Shift.

ROB: Shift happens.

JAN: Shift happens.

MATTEA: [laughs] Yes. Shift happens.

JIM: I can’t believe he said that.

JAN: [laughing] I know, I love it. You can cut that out if you want.

JIM: I’ve got to leave it in, but I just can’t believe he said it. I just have, like, a week of editing to do right now because we've run on 75 minutes of…

JAN: Two shows.

JIM: …stuff, and it all has to come down. It's a three minute segment. [laughter] I hope I have enough material for that, but it's, that's fine.

JAN: Thanks, Mattea, for just doing this. I appreciate it very much.

ROB: Yes.

JIM: And good luck. Where are you headed to next?

MATTEA: I'm going back to work in Ontario.

JIM: In Ontario.

MATTEA: In a couple of weeks. I had a nice long break, but I'll be back to work in Ontario.

JIM: There’s gold in them there hills. Well, I want to go back to school now.

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JAN: Yeah. I mean -

JIM: I kind of, like, what you've been talking about.

MATTEA: It was fun.

JIM (voice-over): And so this concludes an enthralling lesson at the feet of Mattea McRae. Do you have any questions for her? We again invite you to contact Matteo through our listener line at cheynepodcast@gmail.com. That's C-H-E-Y-N-E podcast@gmail.com. Also, if you would, like, to read more from Stephen Jay Gould on his concept of non-overlapping magisteria, I would recommend his book, Rocks of Ages, Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life, which is published by Random House as part of the Library of Contemporary Thought series. On behalf of Jan, Rob, Deanna and me, Jim, thank you for listening. Until next time.

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