Eric Ball & Company

The Gang of 8 makes a surprise return visit for some more reflections on the esoteric world of British Brass Bands, especially those within The Salvation Army. Those in the  know will know this leads us inevitably to stories about, and music of, Eric Ball. Along the way: Erik Leidzen, Derek Smith, Leslie Condon, and more.

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MAKING OUR WAY - A McMahon/Cheyne Podcast

Eric Ball & Company (Season 1; Episode 12) - 1/31/24 

Today’s guides:

Faith Anderson

Ian Anderson

Joan Robinson

Campbell Robinson (ROBBIE)

Jan McMahon

Rob McMahon

Deanna Cheyne (DEE)

Jim Cheyne

JIM (voice-over): We interrupt our regularly scheduled program for this irregular one. In a couple of weeks, Jan and Rob will be field testing their new typhus and malaria vaccines while on safari in Tanzania. Today’s episode was originally planned for broadcast to cover their absence, and a different episode was planned for today. Our best laid plans, however, were no match for our old friend COVID, [music begins] which made an unwelcome visit to their home last week, so we couldn’t get together for that recording session.

So, today we return to our visit with our friends Joan and Campbell Robinson, and Faith and Ian Anderson, and the discussion the eight of us had on our common passion, Salvation Army banding. We covered a lot in four hours of conversation, and had our fair share of refreshments along the way, which explains the noise you’ll hear filtering in from Jan and Rob’s kitchen, which I couldn’t quite filter out. Today’s discussion gravitates toward that exceptional luminary in the brass band world, Eric Ball. Plus, we now get to look forward to a future episode with Jan and Rob’s Tales from Tanzania, should they ever return.

[music ends]

JIM: I think it was a London Citadel under Bram Gregson who came out with an album called “Saturday Night and Sunday Morning.” One disc was all the Saturday Night big hits, and then the next disc was the Sunday Morning most loved pieces. So, if you had one piece that was a Saturday Night piece, and you had one piece that was a Sunday Morning piece, what’s the piece? Which ensemble? Who’s the conductor? And you can mix and match. It doesn’t have to always be the same thing. And would you rather be playing it, or sitting in the audience?

JAN: Yes.

JIM: Robbie?

ROBBIE: My Saturday Night piece is Condon’s “Present Age,“ and the performance is the initial premier performance of the ISB in 1968 in the Royal Albert Hall. Every time I have played it, I think again how absolutely marvelous it is. My Sunday Morning piece is Eric Ball’s “Songs in Exile“…

IAN: Oh, yeah.

ROBBIE: …which entails, “I’m the Child of a King,“ played by trombone. The middle part is “Go On, We Go On Every Day,“ I forget what the [unintelligible] is,“ but, the final piece is a beautiful horn part “Someday I’ll See His Blessed Face,“ with the cornets playing this ethereal sound over the top. You know? 

IAN: Yeah.

ROBBIE: As a matter of interest, after Eric was brought back into The Army as a soldier, that - “Songs in Exile“ - was the second piece he brought one day to the rehearsal of the ISB, and we played that. You know. Absolutely wonderful.

JIM: So you might know this history. Did he write that while he was away, or did he write that once he had come back?

ROBBIE: I think he wrote it once he came back.

JIM: Was that what it was?

ROBBIE: Because the first piece that he wrote was based on... [sings]

IAN: “The Secret of Thy Presence.“

FAITH: “The Secret of Thy Presence.“

ROBBIE: The Festival piece. That was the first piece. And then the second one was “Songs in Exile.“

JIM: So the Saturday Night piece is “Holy War,“ Steadman-Allen, Bernie Adams, and I would not be able to be in the band, but I would have loved to have been when that was premiered.

FAITH: I was there.

JIM: You were there?

FAITH: In Royal Albert Hall, yes.

JIM: Was this at the centennial?

FAITH: Yeah.

JIM: Centenary, sorry.

FAITH: Yeah.

JIM: Yeah, and that’s on the recording. But that moment is just - something changed in Salvation Army writing with him doing that, and yet the piece is not a flash of compositional technique. That thing delivers. I mean, it’s exceptional. And then my Sunday Morning piece is going to be Les Condon, and it’s going to be “Peace of Heart.“ It’s going to be the Detroit Citadel Band of 1969. That’s just before we were in it. And it’s going to be Hanny Orchard conducting it. He was my first Corps bandmaster. Back in the days when - and Rob, you’ll remember this - the year we had Eric Ball as our guest, 1969 at 601 Bagley. We were 14. Right O & R [Orders and Regulations] age, but not Hanny Orchard quality…

ROB: Right.

JIM: …because, with him as the bandmaster, you had to rehearse for a number of months before you actually played. So we were both 14, but we were in the audience when Eric Ball was up there doing the “High Peak“ and the other pieces. He was the bandmaster who I had to go individually into the band director’s office for a little bit of an interview about what it meant to be a member of the band. So it’s “Peace of Heart“ by Les Condon. With that band, Bob Herivel on the cornet line, the other Jim Cheyne, the real Jim Cheyne, on horn.

JAN: I’m going to say “My Comfort and Strength“ by Brian Bowen for Saturday Night, even though that could also be Sunday Morning.

ROB: Yes, it could.

JAN: That will always - it’s the Euphonium - always my favorite. And I’m thinking it ought to be Brian conducting. I’d be at CMI. That would always be the band I’d want to be in. My Sunday Morning piece would be “Prayer.“ And I thought about this a lot, and I came to that because I’d want to be playing. I’d want it to be the Territorial Band. And because I still remember doing that. And I’m sure it was Dick conducting. I’d want you to be conducting. Was it you?

JIM: Yeah.

JAN: Okay.

JIM: That’s why I didn’t see what was going on.

JAN: Okay. Here’s why. Many reasons, but the horns have the most wonderful part. And so whenever there’s a piece that’s written that has a strong horn part and not everybody does that, a horn player knows to do that. Jim Curnow, Bill Himes, they know to do that, too. So I would go for that: “Prayer“ on a Sunday Morning.

IAN: So if I go next - let me share a couple of Eric Ball stories first.

DEE: Oh, good. I’ve been wanting to hear that because I’m the only one here who hasn’t met him.

IAN: Wait. He’s very…

DEE: So, I want to hear them.

IAN: …he was a little fellow. But yeah, so I was a kid and he came to Derby and he compèred. And he had a dry sense of humor, but not always on show. But he tells this story about this couple that lived in their street. And he said, and one night during the second world war, a bomb fell on the house and they were both blown out through the front window. And everybody’s, oh, and he says, “And it was heard to be said by the neighbors, ’It’s the first time they’ve been out together in years.’“ [laughter] And then the next one (that may not be able to be shared), Royal Albert Hall, Ron Waiksnoris and I have to go to the men’s room. And we are standing in line with - who else, other than? - Eric Ball. That’s the last time. [laughter] And I could go on with that joke, but I won’t. So anyway, there’s the Eric Ball stories. But yeah, he was a true legend. My piece is - I don’t know, you’re saying all this stuff and they just knew once. But “Resurgam,“ we’ve mentioned it all, there’s Eric Ball. But “Resurgam,“ we had a reel-to-reel. I had the ISB playing it and also Black Dyke, which was really interesting.

ROBBIE: Oh, that - the memorial.

IAN: And you could hear it back to back. And it was like - and I don’t know whether we just said, but the ISB, they just seem to [sings] you know, it was just so nice. Dyke was perfect. And so we Army people said, “oh, well, they know the words.“ But, you know, it was really nice. And my dad, why it stuck so much, he played it when his, I think it was his father’s mother died. He kept playing it in the house. And that was - who died by the way, Maundy Thursday, just before Easter. So that was his father. So that was - so, “Resurgam,“ and I never thought I would play it. It was also the first piece - I could be corrected here - that really was in the brass band world, the non-Army world, and came into The Army. 

ROBBIE: Right. Correct.

IAN: All of a sudden we could play this contesting piece. And it was like, wow, and I’ve had the privilege of playing it.

ROBBIE: It was his wish.

IAN: Yeah, really!? It was great. So that would be my Sat-Night. And the other one I would mention, I was going to, you said “Present Age.“ I remember “Present Age.“ I don’t remember a specific time I was playing it. And I think it was with a Corps band or something. We were playing it, and the solo bit - you’re playing away, and I suddenly - and it came to me, it doesn’t matter that there’s anyone else in this room. And it stuck with me because, you know, you always have a little bit of a performance thing, you know, how many people are here and are we doing a concert, are we doing a meeting or whatever. And all of a sudden it was just like we were in this sound. Everybody could have just disappeared and we would have played on. So that was a magical kind of, if that’s the right word, spiritual moment with “Present Age.“ So I would put that there and things like “Shine As The Light“ with Peter’s piece, knowing that was - Al Honsberger - written for him. So there’s all those. Sunday Morning: “Prayer“ - that day when we were playing and people were coming to the mercy seat, I’ve never forgotten that. That was - “Prayer“ by the way is a piece that Jim wrote and he’s not played well enough. So get a copy, Bandsmen out there. But it’s wonderful. And that was, so that’s a memory. I think “In Quiet Pastures“ would probably be a piece I would say, but I would take all these others as well. And as we kept going, keep going, I would be going, “Oh yeah, oh yeah.“

ROBBIE: You know, “Resurgam“ originally was written as a contest piece in Belle Vue.

IAN: Yeah, Manchester.

ROBBIE: At C.W.S. band - Manchester band - when Eric was conducting it, and not the taller cornet, but the second guy was a cornet player from New Zealand. He was a bad guy, really. Bad. He said, “We played a piece today that really moved me.“ I said, “Oh really?“ I said, “What is it?“ He said, “Well, it’s a new piece by Eric Ball called “Resurgam.“ I said, “Oh really?“ It got to him. He didn’t have any spiritual moments at all, but the piece got to him.

ROB: It’s all original music, right? I mean, there’s no…

JIM: Except for the “Dies Irae.“

ROB: …except for, yeah. There’s no hymn tune…

ROBBIE: No.

ROB: …or anything else in it.

JIM: He pulled words out of the Apocrypha, “The souls of the righteous are in the hands of God.“ But, it’s just Eric Ball singing. But, was that - maybe someone with history knows - that this was first published outside of The Army…

IAN & ROBBIE: Yes.

JIM: …when Eric was away, and then -  the story I heard is that he said, “When the Army published that, I knew it was home,“ or, “I was home,“ or something like that. Is this story something familiar?

ROBBIE: Well, it’s the companion piece to “Exodus,“ because the death motive [Jim & Robbie sing] in Exodus he has in “Resurgam.“

JIM: Right.

ROBBIE: So companion.

IAN: The “Meditation on Spohr,“ has that same opening [Ian & Robbie sing] and then it goes on.

JIM: I could talk for an hour about that first note going into the second note. [laughter] You know right away what you’ve got…

IAN: Yes.

JIM: …by the way that player goes from the first note to the second.

IAN: Yes. Settle in or move out.

ROB: That was my dad’s favorite, “Resurgam.“ Eric Ball came to two Thanksgiving festivals for Detroit Citadel, and the first one, the band played “Resurgam.“ That’s where my dad first played it.

JIM: What year was that? Was that like ’63?

ROB: It had to be early ’60s. Because I don’t - I probably - we were too young to even go to the concert at that point.

JAN: In the Cheyne family, you were never…

ROB: Oh, you went?

JAN: …too young to go to the concert.

[laughter]

ROB: Well, then, maybe we were there. My dad just raved about that. He just loved it.

ROBBIE: Before I turned the National Capital Band over to Steve - okay? - I spent a whole year working on “Resurgam.“ We were doing a weekend down in Salisbury, Maryland. In the afternoon, we were in a band shell, giving a concert, and we played “Resurgam,“ but it took me six months to get it, where they could really do a reasonably good job. So, if you’re thinking about Eric Ball, both Eriks - Leidzen and Eric Ball. Okay. Here is an anecdote for you. In the middle ’50s, Leidzen came over to London, and so, the ISB decided they were going to put a concert on at a local, at a local, so it was out in Ealing somewhere. We played Ball - Leidzen piece - Ball - Leidzen piece - Ball - Leidzen piece. In the middle of the concert, we played “The Cross,“ which is Festival Series number 110.

IAN: If you say so.

[laughter]

ROBBIE: So, we played it. The next piece we were supposed to play was a very bright Eric Ball number. Eric gets up and they each were announcing their items and everything. He got up and he said…

JOAN: Eric Ball.

ROBBIE: …Eric Ball got up and said, “Folks, what you’ve just heard is something that touches your heart, and we can do no better. So, if you’d all stand, I’m going to pronounce the benediction.“ And, he pronounced the benediction, and we all went home. That is typical Eric.

IAN: Yeah.

ROBBIE: I’ll tell you too, Joan and I were visiting them when he retired in - down in Bournemouth.

IAN: Poole.

JOAN: Bournemouth. Poole.

ROBBIE: Poole. Right. And this particular day, it was about the time when women were beginning to play in…

JOAN: Contesting…

ROBBIE: …in British bands. But in America, they hadn’t. So, there were some guys from the Poole Citadel band there. They had been to a wedding or something. Somehow the talk got around to, “Why are we having women play in the band?“ So, “Eric, what do you think about women playing in a band?“ He says, “Well,“ he said, “outside bands, contesting bands, have lots of women, and they’re far better looking, too.“ [laughter]

JOAN: But he did say that when - he said, “If they play well, they can play. And besides, they’re better looking.“

JAN: And you know what? I would say the same thing of men.

DEE: Yeah.

JAN: “You play well…“

[laughter]

JIM: That’s the first female member of the Detroit Citadel band right there.

ROB: Yup.

JAN: Well, and…

JIM: The two Jans…

JAN: Yup.

JIM: …at the same time. Jan Herivel, not with us anymore, and Jan Cheyne.

JAN: At the time when Eric Ball came to our Corps, I would have been old enough to be in the band, but I was not in the band because of that. But I got to play under him at CMI twice, and - [to Rob] Twice, yes.

ROB: You did twice. I did once.

JAN: So it was - I mean, in all honesty, you’re just in some other world. Because by the time I was old enough to do that, or I got that experience, I was old enough also to recognize who he was and what that meant - what that moment meant that I was sitting there and he was conducting.

JIM: I played under him only once, and I was in ’69, and that’s when we had our Sunday School opening. Band plays, singing company plays, the YPSM brings the message, and I was in the junior band. And he came down because he was with us that weekend, and he conducted the YP band in “The Firing Line.“ That’s the only time I played under him.

JAN: I forgot about that.

JIM: And then, was it in that service that Morning when he extemporized at the piano? And it was just a call for a couple of choruses from the congregation. Someone named me a chorus, another chorus, and he had a collection of three or so. And then he just [would] sit down and would make a suite out of them at the spot, and you’re just thinking, “Who’s recording this? Get your phones out.“

JOAN: When he stayed with us - and I give you this not because it was me, but just to tell you what he, the kind of person he was and how he related to people - he said to me something that I think he must have said to a lot of people. He said, “I think I have met you in another life.“

FAITH: Oh, yes. Yes, that was his…

ROBBIE: Well, he was psychic.

FAITH: That was his thing.

JOAN: It was mind-blowing. Because you’re looking at this man who looked rather fragile.

IAN: Yes.

JOAN: He had blue eyes, and you know,

ROB: White - a shock of white hair.

JOAN: …and he’s your idol, and, you know. And it just blew my mind.

ROBBIE: So that was the undoing of him because he was practicing in spiritualism and preaching in spiritualist churches in London. But there is a story about him leaving one of those services and talking to a lady and saying, “I’d be very careful if I were you.“ And she walked down the street and was shot. So, yes, there is - and of course, army-wise, they didn’t like that. Plus the fact that when he was bandmaster of the ISB, they had the biggest congregation of anybody, including the general, right? So when he - and they told me when I played in the band, “Oh, yes, when Eric was the bandmaster, when he came on the platform, everybody would stand up and clap and shout and like that.” There’s a lot of hero worship, which also contributed to the fact that they didn’t want that.

JIM: No.

IAN: I mean, they’re not direct comparisons, but it’s interesting, Erik Leidzen…

ROBBIE: The same.

IAN: …left The Army, and that was a bit some back then, Eric Ball, similarly. The other thing I would say about Eric Ball, and I’m just amusing here, growing up in Britain as well, the contesting band world and the brass Salvation Army world was very much separated. You shouldn’t mix. So you couldn’t be in both, of course, in those days. But Eric Ball was the one character, or person, that straddled both, and we both claimed him, and there was no kind of - And of course, that’s so much gone now because people do play in the bands, and it was never an issue when brass banding started here. A lot of Salvationists were catalysts in a lot of those brass bands starting here, but in the UK, there was all this great fear, “We’re going to lose people,“ or whatever. And even when they released music and let that be used, there wasn’t so much as, “This music can bless people,“ it was more like, “Oh, we shouldn’t have them having played our music.“ So anyway, but Eric Ball was, as I think about it, fair to say, he was a big part of both groups and where we shared.

ROBBIE: Right.

IAN: It’s now history, and I remember my dad saying at one point, he sensed the difference when they were actually starting to mention that people who had come out of the Salvation Army, and there’s lots of conductors and bandsmen that did that, and they mention that now. They never used... That was ignored in the past. Just a little aside, Eric Ball again was pretty unique.

DEE: Okay, I’m going to... Because all this talk and talking about, like, Eric Ball and that, we’ve talked about his instrumental stuff, and when I looked at Jim’s email about what we’ll discuss, I said the “Magnificat.“

IAN: Yeah.

DEE: I don’t know if you guys have background to that or anything, but I mean, I sang it with the Territorial Songsters. That’s been my experience with it, and I haven’t had the opportunity since, but I would like to hear anyone who has, you know…

IAN: Vocal.

DEE: Yeah.

IAN: Eric Ball’s vocal contributions.

JIM: I just remember that recording and Chris Priest trying to keep me from rushing all the time.

DEE: Yeah, I remember that.

JIM: I had this nervousness about it, and I could not settle down to play that piano part the right way, and it bothered me because I have limited fingers.

JAN: It’s such an ethereal sound. I mean, who can do that? Not many people can do that, so you don’t hear it very often, to have it with the vocal.

JIM: What’s the band piece with the soprano…?

ROB: Yeah, I was just thinking that same thing. Do you, do you remember…

JIM: Solo soprano, wordless soprano. Probably got “song“ in the title.

ROBBIE: A Festival Series piece?

DEE: I think it is.

JIM: Probably. But there’s one where it’s just a wordless soprano that sings at the beginning. It comes in a couple of times, and that was one of the few one-on-one conversations I had with Eric Ball - about that piece, and it was done at CMI, and he was just there after one of their - in the amphitheater, after one of the evening programs, and it’s the first I had heard that piece, and I just went in and said, “I don’t understand what happens to me when I hear that.“ He says, “It’s just something that’s something up there.“ You know, he couldn’t quite articulate it either, which is, which is right. I do remember, at CMI, though, sometimes the guest would - after an evening program - the faculty would go up to the log cabin on top of the hilltop, up where the housing was, and the log cabin was where you would sit at the feet of whoever the guest was, and one Night it was Eric Ball. And you know, in the early Army publications, the composers were not listed on the music.

IAN: Yup, yup.

JIM: Now they are, and in between, initials would be put up there. And so here is Eric Ball, E.B. He also knows that there was somebody else, I don’t want to say who it was - she was part of the Booth family - who shared initials with him, and he said that, you know, sometimes someone would mistake his initials for hers, [laughter] and he was asked about it, and he said, “Well, let’s just say, I think there’s a lot of ghost writing that goes on sometimes.“ [laughter] And I don’t think he was talking about spiritualism at that time.

ROBBIE: Well, that’s true, because when he was working in the music editorial department, he would get a call from E.B., and he was sworn to secrecy. And so he would say to his boss, who was probably Colonel Hawkes at the time, “I have to leave.“ And so, “Well, where are you going?“ He said, “Well, I can’t tell you.“ So he would go out to Sunbury Court where she was - okay? - and he would either write the tunes for her or maybe just do some harmonization or something rather like that, but was never actually known. So, yeah.

JIM: And I think he kept it close to himself, but I think he let a little bit out of the bag that night.

ROBBIE: Yeah.

JIM: Just a pickup on what we were talking about, because I’m hearing all the people listening, all the band members listening to the podcast are yelling at me the name of that Eric Ball piece. It was “The Eternal Presence.“

FAITH: Yes.

ROBBIE: Right.

IAN: Yeah, yeah.

JIM: And I had the word “eternal,“ but I got it confused with “Song of the Eternal,“ which was the Leslie Condon piece. And I’m thinking, “It’s not Song of the Eternal. What’s that thing called?“

ROBBIE: Is that the one where they had the ISS in with them and they had a soprano sing that high, soprano part, you know?

JOAN: That’s what they were just talking about.

JIM: “The Eternal Presence,“ yeah.

ROBIE: Yeah.

JIM: And they did that at CMI, and that’s the one where I was talking to Eric Ball afterwards about it, and it’s one of those that - I wasn’t going to come up with any words, but he couldn’t come up with any words to explain why that works, how it is that it just changes you while it’s happening. But that’s just one of those things that music does. You just listen to a tone, you listen to another tone, you do it, and something happens to you while you’re listening to it. It has to happen through time, you know. Sometimes you’re lucky enough to write some stuff down, but mostly you’re just there to listen to it.

FAITH: And we were walking from the apartment where he was staying in the building, and we walked past the songster room, and one of my friends was undoing her tunic, [laughter] you know, it was back in the zip-up days, and she was only in her bra. So Eric looks in, and here’s my friend there in her full... 

IAN: Glory.

FAITH: Glory. And he goes, “Well,“ he said, “actually, that’s the nicest thing I’ve seen all day.“ [laughter]

IAN: Is that Nancy?

FAITH: Yeah.

JIM: I might have accidentally recorded it.

[laughter]

ROB: Eric’s the one that said - somebody about - “Do you borrow parts of other people’s music.“ He said, “Well, if you’re going to pinch one, pinch a good one.”

[laughter]

JIM: And that was because of the “Song of Courage.“

ROBBIE: Oh, yeah.

JIM: And someone was saying that’s the same as, “Oh, what a beautiful Morning.“ [sings “Song of Courage,“ then sings “Oh, what a beautiful Morning“] It was a flat seventh. But he says, I think it was on that one, “If you’re going to pinch something, pinch something good.“

ROBBIE: You know, Joanie was going to tell you that her favorite Saturday Night piece was going to be “Clear Skies“…

IAN: Yes.

ROBBIE: …played by David Daws at the Eric Ball Memorial. You remember when what’s his face was supposed to play it?

JIM: Roger, uh…

IAN: Webster

JIM: Webster, and was not able to do it, and he come out…

ROBBIE: He fell down the stairs.

IAN: Yes.

JIM: Right, and Daws plays that from memory - the original version - the tougher.

JOAN: Yeah, right.

JIM: When he walked out to play that, it’s just a tremendous ovation that he’s coming to do this at all. And he leans over to Stephen Cobb, he says, “You know, we could just quit now while we’re ahead.“

[laughter]

IAN: I think because David Daws, I think probably any of the top brass bands would’ve taken him as a principle.

ROBBIE: Oh, yeah.

IAN: And David Daws…

ROBBIE: Yeah, I think, you know, all the way around. He had a really lovely tone…

IAN: Oh, yeah, and so easy.

ROBBIE: Big sound.

IAN: Everything’s so easy.

JIM: Yeah, the photograph of him, Stephen Cobb, and Derek Smith was captioned - you can sort out the order - “The Good, The Great, The Legend.“ 

IAN & ROBBIE: Yeah, yeah.

JIM: So, Robbie, who was the ISB bandmaster when you were there? Was it Colonel Adams?

ROBBIE: Yeah, Bernard Adams.

JIM: And was he the only conductor while you were there?

ROBBIE: He was.

JIM: So of the band directors you’ve had, lo, these many years, who do you feel most comfortable under?

ROBBIE: Mm. Either Dean Goffin or Bernard. Bernard. Because, you know, I’ve played a lot longer time with him.

JIM: So Ian, who have your band directors been?

IAN: Derek, Brian, New York. Derek, Brian, Ron, Derek Lance. I’ve played over a 40-year span, on and off, so…

ROBBIE: What about Steve? Up in Boston, huh?

IAN: Yep, Steve at National Cap and in Boston, yeah. In Derby it was Keith Wilkinson, who is up in the East, and I was his band secretary and whatever, and then Richard Gilmore before that, and then my dad when I first went in the band. Derek Smith was the classic, but his beat was not the clearest. We were talking last night, and I was saying one of the guys, put a note on the stand, “Don’t sing,“ because we were recording, and Derek’s going, “Mm-hmm.“ [laughter] So that was this. Brian, I’d been with it at Tylney Hall. Brian - I was very comfortable with Brian. Not everybody in New York was.

JIM: He had a very rough ride there.

IAN: Yeah, yeah, he was a bit exacting, and probably didn’t - just think - personalities are different. Yeah. I always enjoyed playing under Steve.

JAN: Okay, sorry. Go ahead with your story.

ROB: Oh.

JAN: You’ve already forgotten, right?

ROB: What I’m saying? Oh, yeah.

JAN: Conductors.

ROB: Well, obviously it was an honor to sit under Eric Ball, and Derek was awesome when he had the Clearwater band, but there’s my favorite conductor right there. Always has been.

JAN: That’s the truth. I know you hate this every minute of it. I don’t care.

ROB: He’s so good. He brings more out of me than anybody else.

JAN: Yep.

JOAN: Well, when we came…

JIM: I can edit that out.

JOAN: When we came here - what’s his name? - Ron Busroe was after Robbie to come to his Corps because he needed both a Songster leader and a Bandmaster. Well, that was a little distance to go, but the real factor there that made it difficult was that Derek was a Bandmaster at Clearwater, and looking forward to having a good Bandmaster.

JIM: Derek, as the Bandmaster, it was in a good way intimidating. You know, it’s kind of like, I can’t just sit here and blow. I’ve got to actually produce something.

JOAN: That’s right.

JIM: He gave up the band, and I don’t know that it was the best circumstance that it happened, how it happened.

JOAN: You’re right.

JIM: But it was one of those that, when they’re standing there and you’ve got to - okay, I’ve got to do my best right now, you know. And he was one of those.

DEE: I remember when the ISB came over, they were all talking about Derek Smith. We were at Kevin’s restaurant that time, and I remember that being covering over the conversation.

JIM: They knew they were in Derek Smith’s land.

DEE: Right, yeah, it was -- 

JIM: That’s who’s here.

DEE: They were in awe of him.

JOAN: Well, you knew if you play in the band, you would get training.

JIM: But it’s like what Robbie and Ian are talking about, the way that the music is supposed to happen. And it seemed like there’s something that he’s asking for that I’m not really sure about, and I’m not sure if I can give it because I can’t figure this out. But if he wasn’t correcting you, he had either accepted what you had done or given up on it. [laughter] [music begins] So how do you accept his silence? Kind of like, “Well, maybe.“

JIM (voice-over): There is a vein of gold in these conversations, in these memories, and we will mine some more nuggets from it for a future episode. For the moment, we bid a reluctant farewell to our friends, Joan and Campbell Robinson, and Faith and Ian Anderson.

Just now, I’ll go out on a limb and announce that our next episode on Making Our Way will focus on the spiritual journeys the four of us have taken, each of us, and how our thinking on spiritual matters has grown, has been refined, or has changed altogether. Join us then. Until next time, we are Making Our Way. 

[music ends]