Church Happens

Troubling trends in communities of faith, as those who claim no religious affiliation, known on surveys as Nones, now rate as the largest "denomination" in the U.S.

What do you look for in a faith community? Or is that not an issue?

Join the conversation with Jan, Rob, Dee, & Jim, currently at their favorite café.

(Still trying to remember how "Groundhog Day" got in this one.)

Thanks for listening. Share with your friends. Find this and more at cheynemusic.com/podcast.

Transcript

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MAKING OUR WAY - A McMahon/Cheyne Podcast
 Church Happens (Season 1; Episode 25) - 5/1/24

Today’s hosts:
 Jan McMahon
 Rob McMahon
 Deanna Cheyne
 Jim Cheyne

[street sound]

JIM (voice-over)

So, we meet again. Welcome to our favorite café. Coffee, tea, a plate or two to share, and today’s special: Communities of faith, you know, churches. Are they useful? Are they indispensable? Are they replaceable? Good questions, and I think Rob has something for us, so let’s step inside.

[street sound fades out]

[music]

ROB

Well, this is what I see here. I’ve got religion and Christianity, Christianity and religion, Christianity, and Catholicism and Protestantism. Jan, what looks good to you?

JAN

Okay, I’m gonna go with religion and Christianity.

ROB

Religion and Christianity says Jewish Americans and what Christian group enjoy the highest retention rates of all religious groups? Is it A) White Evangelicals, B) Black Protestants, C) Jehovah’s Witness. Wait, wait, that’s a cult. Sorry. D) Italian Catholics.

JAN

Oh, that’s hard. I’m going with Black Protestants.

ROB

Why?

JAN

Church community is very important to Black Protestants.

ROB

Anybody think differently?

DEE

I do, and I don’t know why it’s just a gut reaction. I think Jehovah’s Witness.

JIM

I was gonna say about the why about the Black Protestants. I mean this in the best complimentary sense. They have learned how to absorb disappointment. I would think that the Italian Catholic community has got to be tied into, again, resistance that Italians had as immigrants coming to the country, and so it would bind them together closer. Do you have any, like, stats or is just…

ROB

Yup.

JIM

Oh, there’s stats.

ROB

It’s Black Protestants. It’s 82% retention rate. Jewish Americans are just a little bit higher than that. This all comes from a survey done by PRRI 2024 called “Religious Change in America.”

JIM

What is PRRI?

ROB

PRRI is what, Jan?

JAN

It is Public Religion Research Institute.

JIM

Is this like a university thing, an independent thing?

JAN

It’s American nonprofit.

JIM

Okay.

JAN

They do nonpartisan research.

ROB

This is a 2024 survey and actually it spans between 2013 and 2023 how things have changed. Dee?

DEE

Mm-Hmm?

ROB

What would you like?

DEE

Roman Catholicism and Protestantism.

ROB

Okay. Catholics continue to lose more members than they gain. However, there is one group of Catholics for which the retention rate is highest at 68%.

DEE

I’m going to say seniors.

ROB

Seniors, okay. Anybody else?

JAN

I would say conservative Christians - conservative Catholics.

ROB

Conservative Catholics.

JIM

Hispanic.

ROB

Hispanic. Yep. It’s 68%. Probably reasons for that, because they’re more conservative, right, Jan?

JAN

Yes.

ROB

Yeah. Jim?

JIM

Yes?

ROB

What would you like?

JIM

Well, I’m very interested to see what the difference is between religion and Christianity, and Christianity and religion. So let me take Christianity and religion.

ROB

All right. The primary reason given by religiously unaffiliated Americans for leaving their faith tradition is A) coffee in the sanctuary; B) what happened to the Latin? C) don’t believe that way anymore; or D) the pews are stocked with Trump Bibles.

[laughter]

JIM

I would think C.

DEE

Yeah, that’s what I would say.

JIM

I think it’s a shift of belief.

ROB

They just say, yeah, I just don’t believe that way anymore. All right, Jan, you’re up again.

JAN

Well, the one that’s left.

ROB

Christianity. Name three demographic characteristics of the religiously unaffiliated.

JAN

Young.

ROB

Okay.

JAN

Is that the kind of demographic you’re going for here?

ROB

Yeah, it could be.

DEE

Educated.

ROB

Educated. Okay.

JIM

There might be a political divide, so I’ll say liberal.

ROB

Okay. Mostly Democrat or independent. Yep.

DEE

They live in cities.

ROB

Okay. They’re white primarily. Democrat or independent, which probably means more urban, more educated, and they’re also LGBTQ. Which of these statements is not true? A) 50% of US churchgoers say they have received a definitive answer to a specific prayer; B) 39% say that they have been empowered by the spirit to do a certain task; C) 29% say they have received a direct revelation from God; D) 20% own the Trump Bible and read it upside down.

JIM

That the last one has to be untrue…

DEE

Right.

JIM

…makes me go, “Wow,” on the first three.

ROB

Yeah. Exactly. That’s what I thought. too.

JAN

Wow.

ROB

50% have received a definitive answer to a specific prayer.

JAN

That’s startling. All of those statements…

JIM

So you got 50% a definitive answer to prayer. What was the next one?

ROB

39% have been empowered by the spirit to do a certain task.

DEE

See, I thought that was the one.

JIM

That’s squishy language. I mean, what does that mean?

JAN

This is what they were asked in a survey.

JIM

Yeah, but that sounds like the Blues Brothers, “We’re on a mission from God.”

ROB

But to me, the first one sounds like, “Okay, 50%. That’s just luck.” You know, you prayed for the right thing. It happened.

DEE

It’s a toss of a coin.

ROB

Yeah. It’s like a flip. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, C) was 29% say they have received a direct revelation from God. Those people scare me.

JAN

They believe they have. I’m just going with that’s what they believe.

JIM

I’m on… Go ahead, Jan.

JAN

Whether or not it’s accurate, or whether or not there’s evidence of it, really doesn’t matter. This is what they believe. The question I was thinking about asking from this religious study was, what’s the largest denomination currently in the United States? The number is actually the Nones. They represent the largest single group of people, religiously, non-affiliated. Like, if you look at all the different denominations, that is the largest group, 28%. And it’s growing the fastest. Catholics are 20.8% and Nones are 28% and growing fast. For a lot of factors, I’m going to say Trump and what’s happened with evangelicalism. But I have somebody that I listen to named Trip Fuller. And he talks about when he had to kind of reevaluate - deconstruct - his faith, and that revolved around 9/11 and how the church responded to 9/11 in their anti-Islamic go-to-war caused him to reevaluate what he thought the church should be. So a lot of people are disillusioned. The Nones are a compilation of people who are atheist, people who are agnostic, but people who still are spiritual, they still believe in God, but they’re not affiliated with the denomination.

DEE

Yeah, they’re turned off from organized religion.

JAN

Exactly.

DEE

That’s where I would say I am.

JAN

Yeah. It’s a very interesting group. But I got thinking about this group and the whole idea of selecting a denomination. If you could just create your own church, what would you look for? Because in a way, when you do that break, you get to do that. After you’ve gone through the grief, after you’ve gone through the loss, you have an opportunity to find a spiritual community that maybe is more reflective of who you are.

DEE

Okay, I’m going to create an imaginary church.

JAN

I like that.

DEE

And it would actually be The Salvation Army without any hierarchy.

JIM

It’s attended by unicorns and leprechauns.

DEE

[laughs] There’s no hierarchy. Everyone is community. Everyone has their own role, but everyone is looked at equally. And you see each other as a part of the whole for one goal, one purpose. I like the old Army. Well, the old army in the sense of there was a time like when I went to music school, any one of the bandspeople, songsters, could go to music school and have more musical knowledge than any of the other music students in college. That’s not true anymore. And it’s because we’re no longer valuing those things.

JAN

I’m trying to decide if I should quote this person, but I’m just, I won’t name them. Somebody that I respect with knowledge of army music said, I wouldn’t want to be leading a staff band right now in The Salvation Army because of the decline in playing ability. In numbers. There aren’t as many people out there with the musicianship that we all grew up with. And we were surrounded by incredible musicians. And that’s no longer true. But, you know, another… Were you going to say something, Jim?

JIM

No, I was just going to say I was talking to Peggy, too.

[laughter]

ROB

Whoops.

JAN

Why? Why? I’m trying to…

JIM

Well, because of the thing - because it sounded like something Peggy would say.

JAN

Yeah, it was Peggy. It was Peggy.

JIM

I’ll take that out.

JAN

No, that’s fine. So I’m going to say in my ideal church, there is not a checklist of beliefs, but faith, and trust, and a community of mutual support, and an acceptance, and in fact, an encouragement to question, and to work through those questions, not to dismiss them, not to denigrate them, but to allow for them, take them seriously, work through faith. Also, I’m going to say a couple of justice issues. I think that in my ideal church, justice is important. And we work for those who have less than we do, or who are outside of the norm. And that includes LGBTQ. And that there’s a space for them that they are welcomed, fully included as part of the community that we’re in.

DEE

So a church that is modeled after Christ.

JAN

That’s the way I’m thinking about it.

DEE

Yeah. What - what Christ got criticized for when he was…

JAN

Yes.

DEE

…reaching out to those who were on the outside and getting, “Why are you associating with those people?” sort of thing. Yeah.

JAN

You know, it’s interesting. The presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, Bishop Curry, is very simple in his message. And there’s a way to kind of dismiss it when you say, “Choose love,” you know? There’s a way to kind of dismiss that. But here’s the truth. If the way you’re treating people doesn’t come out of that love, I don’t know what you’re about. And that’s going to be what I’m going to say is the primary thing I would seek in a religious community is love.

JIM

You started at St. Alfred’s in ’92. But now you’re at Holy Trinity. What made that change?

JAN

There was a change in rector at St. Alfred’s and we did not fit there. And we went to Holy Trinity.

JIM

So, in the Episcopal Church, is the character of a congregation given from the rector?

JAN

No. In this case - so when we started at St. Alfred’s, it was just a - we were not members of that church in the full sense. Okay? We were there and enjoyed the worship. But in 2005, we decided - and I might have been the driver on this - if we’re going to find a home, it has to be one that’s going to resonate with us in more ways than just being there on Sunday morning. Which really was what we were doing at St. Alfred’s. We went instead of Sunday school. But now we were looking for something that was more encompassing. And so that made a difference in the kind of congregation we were looking to be part of. And the Episcopal Church has lots of different kind of congregations. So we visited Holy Trinity, we met Father Joe, and he had a strong message of what’s outside of our doors. How do we serve those people? And obviously, we come from a tradition that would understand that, and it resonated with us, and we ended up transitioning and becoming members there.

JIM

And do they have a thrift store?

JAN

Yes.

JIM

And that is for Holy Trinity. It’s not like the Episcopal Church has a thrift store that’s nearby. That one is really through that congregation.

JAN

Exactly.

JIM

That’s different from The Salvation Army. That’s one of the things that happened when you compartmentalize, you lose it. “Oh, as a Salvationist, of course, I’m helping all these people. And what I mean is The Salvation Army is, and I’m part of The Salvation Army.” But yours, it’s the congregation when you go and take care of the people who need help with their laundry. That’s a congregational commitment with an organization. And then you’ve got the thrift store there for that.

JAN

The very first thing we did at Holy Trinity, which was part of that, was we helped with the Habitat for Humanity house. And we went just for one morning of helping to build. And it wasn’t-- it was us. It was us doing that work. It wasn’t our church did that work. It was us.

JIM

And you weren’t hired to do it.

JAN

Right.

JIM

You were there because you were part of this church that was doing this thing. That has an important component to it. It really does.

ROB

It’s interesting. You guys talk a lot about community. My community is my family - you guys, and my family. That my ideal church would be in the mountains. [laughter] It would be outdoors. And it would be surrounded by my family. That’s all I need.

DEE

Sounds like you’re going into cult territory.

ROB

No.

JIM

It sounds like camping.

ROB

Yeah. My church is wherever I am at the moment that whatever that is, that spirit or whatever it is out there, speaks to me. It affects me in some way. I can’t predict when that will happen. But I know when it happens, and it most often happens to me when I’m in nature with my, with Jan or with my family. That’s the community that’s most important to me. Does that make sense?

JAN

Yeah.

DEE

Mm-Hmm. It does. Yeah.

JIM

Everyone has learned this lesson, probably. When you’re new someplace and you’re listening to people, listen to the way people talk about other people.

JAN

Yeah.

JIM

When the person lowers their voice, guard yourself, because you’re about to find out how they’re going to talk about you when you’re in disfavor. I remember walking into a corps once and I was going to be there for a little while, and one of the first things I was told by a certain member was how another certain member used to live their life. “But now we’re just so happy that that person has it all together.” I said, “Well, why did you tell me this stuff? What is your plan in this? Why do you think I need to know that?” There are certain conversations - certain modes of conversation - that ought to be accepted as sacrament. That have, “I cannot violate this.” It’s the doctor/patient, the attorney/client, the pastor/congregant, ought to have a, “This cannot pass my lips again.” For - and I don’t know where that is. I know that it is in the Catholic Church. The confessional is sacred. It is something that, you have to be able to say these things. You have to feel comfortable. That is it. And if you don’t have that, there’s much less trust. There’s much less openness and there’s much less help that someone would seek.

JAN

There’s - one of my priorities. This is an aside, but maybe relevant. When I was doing the library at DHQ was to be a safe place where people could come and say things that they couldn’t say any place else. I got to engage in so many really important conversations because of that. It’s a high honor to be trusted with somebody’s information. But still, out of this podcast, I’ve had people reach out to me and share things that are that kind of intimacy. Even just this week, one of our long time friends reached out to say thank you about one of our conversations on the podcast. And it led to a whole exchange that I never would have had had it not been for this.

JIM

So the folks at DHQ never discovered the recording devices you had in the library?

[laughter]

ROB

We know where the bodies are buried.

JIM

Rob, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about what you were talking about with where churches. Tell me if I’m representing this right. If you are with the people that you love in a beautiful place, say in the Rockies or something like that, that can be church for you. Right?

ROB

Yeah.

JIM

Then just to help with my understanding of that, if that can be church for you, where would church not be? I mean, we’re all taught that church is not just an address that you attend on Sundays, that you take your church with you. But where - it’s like asking the question, “Oh, well, if you’re not in the church, then you’re not with the Lord. Or you’ve left the work. Or you’re not in full time service if you’re not being paid for what you’re doing.” I disagree with those things. So for you, where isn’t church?

ROB

Well, first of all, church can be anywhere. Anywhere that you have a spiritual - I don’t know how else to put it - some kind of spiritual experience outside of normal, what happens in a normal day. It can just be a moment. I’ll give you an example. We go back to Dearborn Heights. Most of that is just people for me. It’s community until the benediction comes. They have adopted this benediction that - it affects me the same way that the one at Norridge did. I can’t remember the words.

JAN

Me neither.

ROB

But that moment - and it’s right at the end of the service, I may as well just come in at 11 - no, sorry, 12:30 [laughter] and just participated in that. That is an experience. Going every Sunday, that’s not necessarily church for me. I mean, that is an activity. Church for me happens when I have that sense that there is a God, that there is a being, something beyond humanity, a creator, a force, whatever you want to call it, that truly speaks to me in that moment. And again, I can’t predict it. I just know when it happens. It happened when we were walking through the giant forest in Sequoia National Park. And it was early morning, and we were like the only ones there. And these huge trees, and it was for me a spiritual experience. That was church. And when that doesn’t happen, I don’t consider that church. I consider it an activity or something that I participated in. I define church differently than just that normal routine of every Sunday or whenever.

JIM

Well, let me go all homiletical on you. The story is Jacob’s ladder story, where he’s just stopped for the night. He has this dream, and the angels are coming and going - both directions - up and down this ladder. And so what does he do? His response to that is to set up an altar, because, oh, God is here. So he calls it house of God, Beth El. What I’m hearing and what I would suggest is that the holy moment doesn’t happen because the altar is there. You put the altar there because that was a holy moment. You’ve put this altar at different places in your life, right? You’ve put it in the Rockies. And you go there again, and you say, “OK, I’m now at the magic spot,” And it may not happen, because it’s not that thing. It’s not that place. It’s something that you carry around with you. Mountains are often involved. Moses found that out. Jesus and his disciples found out, the mountains are often involved. It happened to Francis Collins. I did this in an earlier podcast where he was talking about - he’s the scientist who was the head of the National Institute of Health recently through the whole COVID period. And he was also the head of the Human Genome Project. And when that concluded, he met and presented his work. And Bill Clinton from the Oval Office called it, “We’ve now discovered the language of God.” OK, he’s going poetic on us. But that became the language of Francis Collins’ book, where he talks about his religious conversion. And it was just like Jacob. He’s just hiking in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. He comes across - it’s winter. It’s cold. It comes across a waterfall that’s frozen in three parts. And that’s where he has his born-again experience. You don’t expect that. That’s not what he got up in the morning and said, “OK, I’m going to church today.” Church found him. And that became a sacred spot for him. That story in that book, “The Language of God,” has also become a point of ridicule for some who don’t understand that experience. And I’m speaking specifically of Sam Harris, who I’ve heard take that very passage - and I’ve heard Christopher Hitchens do the same thing - and they’ve dismissed Francis Collins because that’s not a rational experience. “OK, now you’re catching on, boys. It’s not a rational experience.” He’s not trying to say, “Because this waterfall was in three strands, it’s the Trinity. Oh, now I get it. I can now do a syllogism about this.” No, it was this experience that caught him unaware. He was not prepared for this. Jacob was not prepared for it. You’re not prepared. We’re not prepared. It’s just, that happens. And so that’s where we build altars. Not to say, “This is where I’m going to go to be holy,” but, “This is where the holy happened to me.” And so that becomes something. And you can go back there. The experience is not there. There’s no magic to it. It’s not that sort of a thing. It’s the confluence of your mind with what’s around you. And something happens to you. And I don’t care to go beyond into the metaphysics of it. It’s just that this is what my experience was. And so I will attest to what is about me, which is why we call it belief, and not just an assumed predicate for the universe. It’s just a belief that we have.

There’s a good example of that in the movie Groundhog Day. Okay? Bill Murray changes day to day.

ROB

Mm-hmm.

JIM

No one else does.

JAN

Yeah.

JIM

Right? But he and Andie MacDowell, rather than these two people who work together that really don’t have any time for each other, somehow he starts to realize some value in her. So he’s starting to approach her in a romantic way. And they have one night when they’re playing in the snow, and it just is like this magic. It’s wonderful. It’s just like that. Next day comes around. He’s ready for it. He goes there. It’s not magic at all. It’s not working. And she’s responding to him with like, “What’s the deal with you?” It’s a perfect example of where church is and where it isn’t. [laughs] I didn’t know if that movie was intended to be that sort of - But it shows. It’s just that in his mind, the surprise versus the expectation is the difference in those two scenes, because everyone else is exactly the same.

So I was impressed with that idea that church often happens in those places that we’ve built for them to happen. But I think it’s better to build something because this community is a community of faith, and we want to help each other. And so we find a place to it, but it doesn’t have to have the building. So those were a couple of thoughts that popped up as a result of that.

[music]

DEE

I like ice cream.

ROB

Ice cream.

JAN

Therapeutic.

DEE

It is. So my absolute favorite combination ice cream is chocolate with chocolate syrup, peanut butter, and - Well, let me go back. The chocolate syrup, I prefer hot fudge.

JAN

Oh, yes.

DEE

And then crushed peanuts on it. That’s like the perfect ice cream combination.

JIM

Do you like that in a cone or in a cup?

DEE

Well, if I have all that stuff, it would be in a cup. But if I’m going to have not all that stuff and just like peanut butter with chocolate, I would have it in a cone.

ROB

Isn’t that what they call a turtle sundae?

DEE

Oh, is it? I don’t know. It’s just all the things I like. What do you like, Rob?

ROB

Oh, there’s a place in Jackson, Michigan. I don’t know what it’s called now…

JIM

Jackson Dairy.

ROB

It used to be the Jackson Dairy. And we used to go there when we camped out there at Memorial Day and Labor Day. And they had these wonderful banana splits. Six big scoops of ice cream. Strawberry, vanilla, and chocolate. And then the toppings. I mean, and it stood…

DEE

Holy.

ROB

…probably a foot and a half high.

DEE

Dang.

JAN

It’s amazing.

ROB

They were huge.

DEE

You didn’t have that all to yourself?

ROB

Oh, yeah.

DEE

No! It would melt before you could eat it.

ROB

No, yeah, it melts in your mouth, not in your hand.

JAN

Well, he eats fast, Dee. He eats fast.

ROB

Yeah. Remember, I’m a McMahon. Yeah. And, oh, they were just so good. They had the regular - the pineapple, the chocolate, and the strawberry toppings, and marshmallow.

DEE

You need to hang out with my mom.

ROB

Oh.

JAN

Yeah.

ROB

Well, I knew your mom likes banana splits. When we were in Newfoundland, there was a banana split Sunday.

DEE

Oh, that’s -  It was in the one where…

ROB

Where Alan Doyle is from.

JAN

He lived.

JAN

Petty - Petty Harbor.

DEE

Petty Harbor.

ROB

Petty Harbor. Yep. Anyway, yeah, I know she likes those banana splits. And Janet?

JAN

Well, this is a Detroit answer. My absolute favorite is a Saunders hot fudge Sunday. Vanilla ice cream, very white vanilla, nothing, you know. And Saunders hot fudge. If I’m just going to have ice cream in a cone, I’m going to go for chocolate.

DEE

Everything else you would have in a cup, but chocolate you would have in a cone?

JAN

Oh, I’m saying if I had something without toppings.

DEE

Oh, okay. Yeah, that was my question.

JAN

Then I would have just chocolate ice cream in a cone.

DEE

In a cone, not in a cup.

JAN

Exactly.

DEE

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JAN

I like it plain. It’s hard to get now because you can’t get Saunders hot fudge easily anymore, and there are no Saunders stores that you can go and sit at the counter and eat it. So it’s become a little bit rare. I couldn’t find Saunders hot fudge last time I was up there. Fortunately, you guys have it.

DEE

We still have it.

JIM

Yeah, our supplier is you and Rob. And we have some in the refrigerator right now.

DEE

So we were in Chicago last week, and Jim and I went to the Art Institute and right across the street was an ice cream shop. And I can’t remember - what’s it called?

JIM

Amorino.

DEE

Amorino. And I saw it and I realized it reminded me of a place we went to in Budapest. What was the name of that one?

JIM

Gelarto Rosa.

DEE

Gelarto Rosa.

JIM

That’s right by the cathedral.

DEE

Yeah. And the line was going out the store and I saw what was coming out and I was like, “Oh, we have to go in there,” because they would shape the ice cream into roses.

JAN

Oh.

ROB

Oh, wow.

DEE

Budapest was the first time I had seen that. And you can choose like one flavor, two flavors, or like typically three flavors. So the last time I had something like that was in Budapest. So then in Chicago, I said, “We have to go there.” So we went in there and I had hazelnut, chocolate hazelnut, and then blueberry and vanilla.

JIM

Vanilla.

DEE

And then they put a little macaroon in the center and you get to choose your flavor macaroon. And I had - it was a sugar cone. The top part was dipped in chocolate with chopped peanuts around it. It was so good. And what did you have, Jim?

JIM

I had a hamburger and a chocolate shake…

[laughter]

DEE

No, you did not.

JIM

…minus the hamburger. They made this chocolate shake, which was just chocolate in cold liquid form. You know where they started? Amorino?

DEE

No.

JIM

They started in Paris.

DEE

Oh, that would make sense.

JIM

On the Île Saint-Louis. I’m going to mispronounce it that way. And it’s right next to that other place we went. Berthillon?

DEE

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JIM

Remember that place?

DEE

Yeah, it was a neat little ice cream place. It was small portions, but it was like really good.

JIM

Well, a good flavor.

DEE

Yeah.

JIM

And it was it was just south of where we stayed. We were staying in the Jewish quarter that time.

DEE

Well, it was that was actually gelato.

JIM

What’s the difference?

DEE

Less fat. Yeah, ice cream has 10 percent fat and they add air. Gelato: four to eight percent fat; lower in fat and higher in flavor. Sherbert has one to two percent fat and sorbet has zero percent fat.

JAN

Which is why, yeah.

JIM

Sorbet generally is a non-dairy thing.

DEE

Yeah, it’s non-dairy.

JAN

It’s fruit usually.

DEE

But feel less guilt when you’re having gelato and one of those rosa…

ROB

How did they make it into a rose? Did they do that by hand or was there some kind of press?

DEE

Well, the ice cream is hand dipped ice cream. So they have a flat paddle and they just take a little bit and they they clump a bit in the center and then they keep adding like pieces. So it’s like little petals going around. So it takes time like they’re creating it in front of you. Then they’ll get your next flavor and that’s the next row and they’ll just put petals all around.

JAN

I love the attention of that and the artistry of that. When you eat really good food that somebody is so intentional about. I mean it’s an experience that’s wonderful.

DEE

Yeah, it was neat. It was good.

[music fades out]

[street sounds]

JIM (voice-over)

Well, that conversation continued well into the night, and ended only when the café staff started stacking the chairs. It was Jan’s fault, mostly. She thought, in her pastoral way, that we should share the reasons we had - the four of us - for leaving The Salvation Army as our church. At the time, let’s be honest, a lot of junk speculation was being passed around, which we didn’t have the energy or the inclination [music begins] to address, but, if you’re curious about the situation as it really was, and what we have to say about it, it’ll be in a future episode called “On We March,” where we talk about the joys and griefs of our continuing spiritual development beyond the traditions of our younger days.

[street sounds fade out]

But first, our next episode will be an interview with an old friend - Jennifer Hoosier -                who has been on her own highly innovative journey, and whose life has taken a rather -  how shall I say it? - “Strange” turn. That’s upcoming in a week as we continue Making Our Way. Until next time.

[music ends]