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ValleyChat
The official podcast of Shepherd of the Desert Church, Scottsdale, Arizona. Faith, life, and wisdom in the Valley of the Sun.
ValleyChat
Second Chair Leadership Feat. Pastor Alan Rosnau
Shepherd Pastor John welcomes his coworker and mentor Pastor Alan onto the podcast as they discuss the nuance of leading from the "2nd chair." Listen in to gain some wisdom on what it means to support central figures in leadership, and hear some of Pastor Alan's own experiences over nearly thirty years of service at Shepherd!
Hey Shepherd family, pastor John, here with Pastor Alan, we are going to be recording another segment of our Shepherd podcast and usually Pastor Scott is across the desk from me as we talk about the different areas of leadership, ministry or even devotion, talking about some ways we can hopefully provide some support and encouragement resources for you to use in your daily life and your daily walk with Jesus.
Speaker 1:But today we've got not only a special guest but a special topic where Pastor Alan and I are going to be speaking to each other about our own roles as associate pastor to each other. About our own roles as associate pastor and kind of the idea of leading from a supportive role, from a supportive position, rather than being the one at the top of the food chain, the one with the highest responsibility. So Pastor Scott is our senior lead pastor here at Shepherd. We both have the opportunity and joy of serving as associate pastors, really in a supportive role and an encouraging, bolstering role to his ministry and leadership. So, pastor Allen, if you would just share kind of your story when you started and how things have been for you in the course of time at Shepherd, Well, thank you, Pastor John.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've been honored and privileged to serve here at Shepherd of the Desert since the fall of 1994. And I have served always since then in an associate position and joyfully very much enjoy being in that kind of secondary role. I've worked with three different senior pastors here at Shepherd of the Desert, which has been an interesting experience, a wonderful experience. Three gentlemen who all have unique talents and abilities and I've counted it a real privilege to learn from each of them and work in support of each of them. I worked for 15 years with Pastor Steve Tile I learned so much from him and then about 11 years with Pastor John Beauregard and now with Pastor Scott Seidler and of course, john as a colleague as well and it's just been a real blessing and a learning experience to be able to be in this kind of a role.
Speaker 1:I think, as time goes on. So I've been serving in this role specifically for a little over two years, but serving in a tangential role, at least here at Shepherd, for a little over three, for a little over three. What I learned as time goes on is really how much of a privilege it is to be in this role, where the buck doesn't necessarily stop on my desk but I'm still able to contribute to the forward movement of a congregation, of a ministry, of an organization, and continue to learn from great leaders like yourself and like Pastor Scott as well. So I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about a time when things really were positive and strong and going really well. What's one of the best experiences you've had in having this supportive role and what do you think contributed to that way?
Speaker 2:As far as speaking to somebody who is in my early, early years of this role, of this kind of supportive position, and also maybe anyone that would be listening or watching that finds themselves either at work or in a relationship you know, a family relationship situation where they find themselves not in charge, not in the driver's seat, yeah, no-transcript, and it was an opportunity to really sort of reevaluate also my own talents and gifts and so on, and through that process I saw the wisdom and counsel of a lot of different people and that process just really kind of helped to affirm to me that my role was sufficient in itself to be in a secondary role, you know.
Speaker 2:And so that was very affirming to be able to say you know, it's okay to be who I am and use my own unique talents for the sake of the church and for the team, and so that was a very positive experience. You know, a number of people had nominated me to be the next senior pastor, but it was. It kind of goes back to that ancient Greek phrase know thyself, you know. It's important to know what your God-given talents and gifts are and to affirm that and use those to their best. You know, and I could recognize that I could use my talents best, you know, doing what I'm doing in a secondary role and leading in that way and allowing God to bring someone on who has a different set of talents to be in that senior position, which I truly believe he did in bringing us Pastor Scott.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it speaks a lot to your character and maybe it's something that took decades of experience to develop that strength of character to say you know, especially, I think, as leaders in ministry, we tend to have an attitude of if it needs to be done and there's no one to do it, I'm happy to help deal with the task, you know, to help contribute to getting things done, and so you know there's no one in that role and you have the capability probably to at least pick up the reins if necessary in an emergency situation and do what you need to do, and instead, you know, being patient and being willing to work through the process and trust that you know God's called you into a role that will continue, you know, in that same capacity, alongside whoever it is that is brought in.
Speaker 1:I can think of really just some gracious leaders in my life.
Speaker 1:On my internship year, my vicarage year in South Florida at St Paul Lutheran in Boca Raton, the senior pastor there treated the intern almost as an associate pastor, and so I came in in that kind of category. But at the same time that I was starting there was a new associate pastor, and so there is a significant, you know, kind of period of time where we were trying to wade through what are our roles? Who are we? How do we not step on each other's toes but also really lean into each other's gifts? And so I just commend Pastor Steve and Pastor Andrew for their patience with me and also just developing and helping me understand, you know, what kind of ministry and what kind of role I can do in almost preparing me for a kind of similar role of associate pastoring yeah, is owned at a church somewhere. As somebody who has transitioned from being by yourself in a church and being the sole pastor into the role of supporting role, a secondary position, can you speak to how that change shifted?
Speaker 2:for you. Yeah, yeah. Well, people may not be aware that before I came to Shepherd, I was pastor of a couple of different congregations in two different states. I was pastor of a couple of different congregations in two different states For nine years. I was the sole pastor of congregations and while that was a great experience, when I had the opportunity to come and be on a team and then sort of focus in on the area of ministry that I love the most pastoral care, as well as teaching and so on I thought this is a God thing, you know, and I've really come to appreciate team ministry. You know, the fact that we as colleagues can help and support one another. We're there for each other, as well as all of the rest of the folks on staff and the lay leaders that are a part of the ministry team here at Shepherd. It is just very affirming to see how God brings different gifted people together and then maximizes those gifts for the sake of the ministry. That has been just a real joy. And so, yeah, I think about.
Speaker 2:Well, there's a book you're familiar with too. Mike Bonham and I'm forgetting the other author's last name now, anyway wrote a book called Leading from the Second Chair and really it's applicable not only to ministry but in any profession where you find yourself not in the top position but in some kind of secondary position, and it's a tremendous book with insights about how to navigate that well. It's a tremendous book with insights about how to navigate that well, and I I've just really enjoyed recognizing that we lead in our own unique ways as secondary persons on the team. We lead because leadership basically is influence, and you influence through your work, in your realms and in support of the person at the top. You know, and that's been a real joy. I'm sure you found that too, jim.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's been so meaningful to learn how to speak as a team of three with one voice, you know, of course, primarily guided by our senior pastor, but the way that he leads in partnership with you and I gives us a place at the table. So, on the one hand, we have to recognize his gift to us and allowing us to participate at that level I know there's probably many secondary leaders out there who don't necessarily have that same influence at the table of decision makingmaking or whatever but that communication piece of being able to not only when we're each preaching a sermon separate and distinct of one another, speak in such a way that still sounds like shepherd, but also even in our internal communication. So one of my favorite things to do is receive a text from you or Pastor Scott in our little three-man group chat, because it's either going to be some way we can support each other.
Speaker 1:Maybe one of us has experienced a difficult thing, some kind of. We need some help, we need some encouragement, we need some prayers. Maybe we've come across just some funny anecdote we want to share with the others, and that's a good way for us to continue to build our friendship and rapport with each other. But there always seems to be encouragement and support that comes from those communication pieces. That then makes me feel more and more confident that what we're doing, we're doing together, rather than there being kind of this idea of competing or trying to win over other groups or pit each other against one another. It's really not like that and we're so blessed to have that kind of situation where we just want to really see each other succeed and really, when Pastor Scott's in a good place and we're in a good place and Shepard's moving forward, then there's nothing more I think we could ask for. I think-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a blessed situation. Yeah, it really is. And I've recognized over the years too, that it calls for a certain level of humility, not only on the part of the persons in the secondary role, but on the part of the person in the lead role too. And Scott just is such a wonderfully gracious man to very humbly allow us to do what we do, and he affirms us in our talents, just as we do our part to affirm and support him. And you're right, this whole team spirit is so very positive. But I am sensitive to those who are in situations where maybe that kind of team support isn't there. That can be very, very difficult and that's where, yeah, some real, honest conversations need to happen around what makes for a great team, you know, and I think genuine humility is a big part of it.
Speaker 1:So I want to hear a little bit about the. You know there's a verse in Romans you were sharing with me before we hit the record button, about how to not think of oneself and why we shouldn't think of oneself more highly than we ought to, but also maybe before we get there. Over the course of the last few months we've been having some staff transition and we've been reflecting on the past and you've said a couple of times, with some key leaders that have been here for a long time, you've weathered some storms together and, without necessarily getting specific or personal, I wonder if you could speak to how navigating those times of challenge whether that be because of relationships among staff or just the circumstances of the organization how has walking through and navigating those challenging times been as a secondary leader?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it can be a pretty heavy question to respond to, but I'll do my best.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is no perfect place and there is no perfect church here on earth, and sometimes tensions arise, even in ministry, and sometimes that involves the church members themselves. And here at Shepherd we've faced a number of different challenges over the years that I've been here anyway, but boy I've sure seen God at work and in bringing about healing and renewal. You know, it's called for an extra measure of grace with everyone involved right, an extra measure of grace. And it's called for the value of putting value on seeing that every person is a child of God, and the enemy out there is not other people. The enemy is the evil one who wants to cause division in the church. And so how can we best come together as brothers and sisters in Christ and work through whatever the challenge is, and I've just seen great things happen when people come to the table with honest, open hearts and motives and so on. I'm not sure if I'm addressing your question exactly the way you wanted me to Pastor John.
Speaker 1:I think, getting to the strategy for navigation, which is humility, which is communication, which is prayerful posture and trying to recognize and see people how God sees them. I mean that list from Ephesians, chapter six, is one of my favorites. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual powers out there in the universe, and while we may get hung up on what that spiritual realm is full of, what we should really focus on is that the people that are right in front of us are never the enemy that we are called to confront. Yeah, very true.
Speaker 1:And that enemy may be active within them or within us at times, but ultimately it's other children of God. And that's the other key piece to this too is a church, specifically a ministry. Now, a church is not like a business, where we have a combined focus on simply profit or growth or one key performance indicator. Instead, we've got a family, and a big family at that. And so in a family situation, you're gathered around the holiday table and somebody lobs a big hot button question into the air hey, grandpa, what do you think about this? Or John, what are you going to say about that? And maybe we've experienced this. You know you're a pastor. What would you say? You know how should a Christian handle that? Anyways, the conversation tends to get a little tense at those times and when we sit back, breathe and realize this is people we're dealing with, not numbers. This is a family.
Speaker 2:we're all fallen people, we all have our faults and flaws and so on, and it's good to just be honest about that. You know and and recognize. You know jesus called to repent and believe the gospel is central to all of it. You know all of us need to daily repent and and acknowledge our, our failings and then believe the good news that Jesus has died and risen again to forgive our sins and set us free and we live under grace and we treat each other with grace, and that's what makes the church so alive is when we can live that honest way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It puts us in a place of hope and a place of joy? Certainly, absolutely, and I think being led by that Romans mentality of humility not thinking of oneself higher than one ought, but being willing to submit to not only the authority of God over us as our father, but also the authorities he's placed over us in life, and being willing to have that honest conversation with ourselves and saying, okay, lord, open my eyes up to how I can navigate these relationships, come about these decision making conversations better and do it in a way that's representative of the work that you're doing in my heart, or how you're doing on me.
Speaker 2:That Romans passage, by the way, I find interesting because it comes right in the context of Paul describing the church being like a human body with many parts. You know, and God has given in the church a variety of gifts, in people, right, and we're not all the same. We don't all have the same gifts, and it's in that context that then he makes this rather intriguing statement Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to think, but think of yourself with sober judgment. And I think that is a part of what makes a team ministry really effective is when you can be honest about the gifts that you've been given. Don't try to think more highly of yourself than you ought. Right, have a sense of being interested in what the other person needs. It's a part of applying God's kind of love in a relationship, and all of that, I think, is what makes for a really healthy, vibrant team ministry and church congregational family setting as you described so well. It's like a family.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, and using that example of body parts, when you are studying the body in high school biology, you learn the functions of each body part, if you don't know them already. The eyes are for seeing, the ears are for hearing, the hands are for feeling, the legs are for walking, and when you understand their functions you begin to value their importance. Right, and sometimes what gets in the way of our relationships with other people is we struggle to see that maybe their function to put it in an unfeeling, unsentimental term. But when God allows us to see the function, the gifts, the tools, the things that other people can do that we can't do, that brings us into a place where we're just, we're just healthier and and, uh, so if, if that's a place where you're at, where you're struggling with a teammate or you're, you're kind of figuring out, how does it, how do I sustainably live and lead from a secondary position? How do I stay in a good place and a good relationship with the other people God's surrounded me with?
Speaker 1:Consider that Maybe. Look at the people around the table on your team, on the Zoom call, whatever it is, and say what is it that each of these people brings to the table, and how does that contribute to our team body? What does that give us the ability to do together that we wouldn't be able to do? Kind? You know kind of like what's that phrase. You know an object is greater than the sum of its parts. You know it's more than just four people from four areas, but you know together they can do more than what five or six people might be able to do yeah.
Speaker 2:So Very well said Very well said.
Speaker 1:Well, I really appreciate you know you sharing some of your story, some of the Shepherd story as well. We couldn't be more grateful for the opportunity to serve here and hopefully speak some support and encouragement into your lives. And, as we continue to produce these Shepherd podcasts, we just encourage you to share them with anyone that you might think would glean some value from them. We look forward to continuing to be in conversation. We just pray that God would bless you and bless your work and the vocation and the calling that he has placed you into, and we look forward to seeing you next time.