REDEFINING THE NORM – Authentic Marketing Strategies for Law Firms

How can law firms break away from the clichés of legal marketing and connect more authentically with potential clients? Join us as we uncover the secrets with Ariel, a marketing expert from a non-traditional law firm. She shares her wisdom on avoiding legal jargon, making messaging relatable, and tackling the misconceptions about lawyers in both personal injury and corporate law. Get ready to rethink those cringe-worthy ambulance chaser ads and discover how creativity and authenticity can transform legal marketing.

Building trust is paramount in the legal profession, and Ariel offers a compelling blueprint for achieving it through personalized marketing. We unravel the importance of clear communication, humanizing client interactions, and the strategic advantage of embracing niche practices. Discover how her firm stands out by guiding clients with honesty, even when cases aren't a perfect fit, and how these approaches foster a brand that resonates across diverse audiences.

In our final segments, we dive into the essence of personal branding and client engagement. Ariel's anecdotes shed light on the power of direct attorney communication and the balance between authenticity and the risk of offending potential clients. We'll also explore the impact of client testimonials and word-of-mouth endorsements in building a formidable reputation. This episode is brimming with actionable insights for anyone passionate about legal marketing or aiming to understand the unique challenges faced by law firms. Don’t miss out on these strategies to elevate your firm's marketing game!

Want more? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpz3MJtB5wkuzoESfGd9xVw

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

On the business side of marketing the law. We often forget that and don't do that well, because we end up talking like lawyers, like we assume the audience is other lawyers and I'll go no clients, our clients aren't lawyers. Why are we walking and talking and writing like lawyers? No one wants to read that or hear that and then the fallback is well. But lawyers are good referral sources. Sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. But to me, I think there's a fear of being relatable to the people we want to do business with, and I think that's one of the misses is not taking enough time to understand what our clients actually care about and then create messaging that relates to that. You are listening to the Marketer, a podcast for modern day marketing professionals.

Speaker 3: 0:57

Thank you guys for joining me on the Marketer. It's great to have you. This is a kind of a unique episode. I want it to be just all about niche marketing. You guys are in a really interesting niche, being that you guys are doing marketing for attorneys. So that's you can look at it one of two ways Really interesting that you get to do marketing for some really unique things. The other way is really boring.

Speaker 3: 1:30

How do you, you know, how do you do marketing for a bunch of attorneys that are all, like you know, stiff necked and and maybe not so much fun? So I would love to hear from you guys maybe start right out of the gate how did you get in to doing marketing for law firms and what's been your experience with it? Jeff, will you start us out? Yeah, I, you know. What you had to say there I think is fantastic, and that you do have to eat and it's and so many people and it's interesting, you know do have to eat and it's and so many people and it's interesting, you know, just from an outsider looking in, you think that all attorneys are doing it and are making it and have no problem with business, right, and I know that that's not the truth, ariel, I want to bring you in on the conversation too, because this is your day-to-day journey too. So how's it going for you?

Speaker 2: 2:26

Because in my office I would say I don't think I've ever had a boring day. We definitely market ourselves very differently. I think that was kind of my pull to come here. I started from like a marketing agency standpoint, working with just a few law firms, and I had they were more probably what you would stereotypically think as lawyer marketing, whereas here we're so out of the box with what we do that I don't think I could ever say I came into work and had a day where I had to take pictures of like stuffy lawyers in their office.

Speaker 2: 2:58

We definitely like we have our own like merchandise we make. We're just like a very creative office in general. Um, we just put out like black history make. We're just like a very creative office in general. We just put out like Black History Month shirts. We're big on like all those kinds of things. So whether it's, you know, the way that we dress, the way that we do things, it's not your typical law firm, which I think was why I was kind of drawn to it for marketing purposes. So I'm not really, you know, familiar with the other side of it, but that's kind of when I'm used to a law firm, I think.

Speaker 3: 3:27

That's really awesome. So you guys are different, and you know to your point, I've never worked at or with a law firm other than Jeff which I find, jeff, to be fascinating, by the way. So walk me through that though. Why do you feel like yours is different?

Speaker 2: 4:00

So walk me through that though, here to help you genuinely. We're a big community driven kind of office. We do a lot of food drives, you know, giving back to organizations within the area you name it. That's kind of our bread and butter. We describe ourselves as a firmly, which is basically a family, because we all have kind of connected and we take care of each other here. So when you walk through our door you are part of our friendly. So that's kind of how we market ourselves and that's basically what we stand on. That's like the pillar of who we are.

Speaker 1: 4:33

It's really funny to hear that, because you know lawyers all have a stigma and but they have different ones because you know you brought to the forefront the whole idea of the ambulance chasers in the personal injury world. In the corporate law side, you'd think there's not a stigma. Yeah, there are. People typically think that corporate lawyers are overpriced, boring, arrogant, prima donnas and not relatable. You know, I often tell people. Why do you go out and tell people? When people say what do you do and they say I'm a lawyer, I think why are you opening with that line? Because basically what they heard is whatever their stigma is is what they just heard you say. So you know I'm arrogant. You know why don't we try something different? But what are?

Speaker 1: 5:23

There is an interesting similarity that I hadn't thought about until just now, ariel, that I wanted to say. Well, your primary audience of messaging is to individuals and sometimes I think law firms on the business side make the mistake of saying, no, we're marketing to businesses, but we're not. We're marketing to individuals in that business. It's just a different priority they have of what's important to them, but they're still individuals. You don't sell to companies, you sell to individuals in that company who decide that you're their value, the best choice for them you the best choice for them.

Speaker 3: 6:10

So I have a little story for you guys just about some commercials from a particular law firm I'm not going to say who. It is in my area and they are ambulance chasers and they have the most cringe commercials on TV. Yet you see them all the time. They are constantly advertising. I hear them on the radio and I wanted to get your guys' perspective about advertising like that, because what you said, jeff and Ariel, is that people do business with people, we don't do business with brands, and I communicate that all the time to my clients.

Speaker 3: 6:52

But it's interesting to hear you guys say that specifically about law firms, and anytime I see a commercial from a law firm, it's always the attorneys, the business, you know, the, the business owner attorneys, if you would, who are on the commercial saying something. Whether they're cringe or not, you know is is one thing, but how do you get attorneys basically to understand that, jeff, you don't want to go out and introduce yourself as an attorney. That's not what you know because of the negative perceptions that go with that, how do you get them to understand what marketing and personal branding, if you would is and how they can go about that to not only benefit their own client list, but the entire firm, to not only benefit their own client list, but the entire firm.

Speaker 1: 7:50

Well boy, how much time do we have? I think the first thing is that lawyers, I believe, need to be willing to be more relatable, because too often I think I will say this the industry you're in, ariel, I think does one thing it does really well is it understands who its customers are and it shares a message, and some we like the message, some we don't. We have different opinions of the message, but it's designed to meet them where they are and I think that on the business side of marketing the law, we often forget that and don't do that well, because we end up talking like lawyers, like we assume the audience is other lawyers and I'll go no clients, our clients aren't lawyers. Why are we walking and talking and writing like lawyers? No one wants to read that or hear that and then the fallback is well, but lawyers are good referral sources. Sometimes they are and sometimes they're not.

Speaker 1: 8:55

But to me, I think there's a fear of being relatable to the people we want to do business with, and I think that's one of the misses is not taking enough time to understand what our clients actually care about and then create messaging that relates to that versus what we think is. I mean, I'll tell you if I see another law firm that posts on social media some sophisticated, esoteric article about a new law that the lawyers think are the coolest thing ever which is why some lawyers are boring and you don't want them at your cocktail party versus something that someone can actually use. So I think there's a. I just encourage lawyers regularly let's get more human. Let's get more human and stop, get off the mountaintop and come down to the people.

Speaker 2: 9:46

I 100% agree with that.

Speaker 2: 9:47

I will say with our firm, even if you go to like our website and our pages like the way that we created kind of the idea behind it was to answer people's questions.

Speaker 2: 9:56

So even if it's a case, that's not a case for us, we'll explain to you why that doesn't work for what we do and ways that you can go about maybe trying to fix it or finding the right person to help you with your case, because there's a lot of misconstrued ideas as to what constitutes a case and when you can actually go forward with it. But when you look at a lot of sites, they involve statues and you know legal terminology and things that people don't fully understand. That people don't fully understand. So our blogs and things like that are always catered to talking to a human and like basically telling them like this is your question, here's your answer, here's why you know if it's not a case, we can still call us and we'll still try to help you as much as we can maybe connect you to the right person, but it's important to reach them in a way that they get you know we genuinely want you to have all the information you need to figure out who the right person you need for your case is.

Speaker 1: 10:52

You know Well, I think to that point, ira, it sounds like both of our industries have a common thread of needing to build trust and figure out how we're going to build trust. And does our marketing and branding? Here's my thing. I don't. I'm thinking this and I've got an example in my head. I was about to say that pure branding, I don't think, builds trust, but then I realized it might. So, for example, I won't use the name, but there's a firm in the Tampa area that's in your industry and their primary brand is highlighting the law school that this lawyer went to. Now I certainly remember it because when I see the sign I go, who cares? But he went to a very prominent law school that some people would know that name. So it may be that people see that and that means trust to them. It wouldn't mean that to me, because my first question is okay, dude, where'd you graduate in your class?

Speaker 2: 11:50

like this yeah, you went to a great law school, but I'm not hiring you because of that yeah, but some people that does work so there can be trust building in branding.

Speaker 1: 12:01

That I wouldn't have thought until.

Speaker 2: 12:03

I thought about them.

Speaker 3: 12:07

I you know, on this issue of content, jeff and Ariel, I know that to your point. I think a lot of it is, and there's certain brands that are not brands. There's certain industries, I should say, that are just traditionally hideously boring. It's basically content for the sake of content. The finance industry, you know, terrible at just spitting out junk that they think people are interested in. It's not personalized in any way, shape or form. It's boring, you know. But how do attorneys create content that matters and content that's going to be personalized, get attention to themselves and create this trust, expertise and authority that they all want to have? And then, piggybacking off of what you just said, jeff, you Jeff that some things are going to matter to some people and not to other people. So how do you guys approach that?

Speaker 1: 13:16

Well, I'll tell you, I look at it in the vein of the niche that you're talking about. Because you vein of the niche that you're talking about because you, amanthi, you referred to the law being a niche, but for the firm, each firm has its niches, like we have, and to me, firms are afraid of niches. I'm sorry, not all firms are, but a lot of firms are afraid of niches. They're afraid to say this is what we're about because they're afraid someone else who's not in that niche will not fit. I said but that's okay, you can take who you want. The question is what's your messaging?

Speaker 1: 13:52

Like our firm, bachter Law I've been working on it because it's only been a few months we've been a part of the firm. They say you know who are your clients? They say well, 80% of our clients are technology companies, sciences or consumer goods who innovate constantly. That's 80% of our clients. Do we have others? Absolutely I don't talk about them, because as soon as I talk about us being a law firm for everybody, we became a law firm for nobody. So part of this is just own your niches and be willing to be who you are, because on the personal branding, you've got to decide who you're going to be, because I will tell you over the years in the law, out of the law and now back in the law. The best compliment I've ever got and it was by design is people saying you don't sound like a lawyer, you sound like a business guy and as a lawyer who works with businesses, that's the best compliment, because businesses want lawyers who understand business. I didn't want to sound like a lawyer.

Speaker 2: 15:03

Yeah, we always talk about do business with people you like, you know, and that's kind of like the thing is you know, you are simple as well and kind of know your stuff, but at the same time understand, as you said, other human beings and what they're looking for too. That is extremely important, for sure.

Speaker 3: 15:23

So how do you go about personalizing the attorneys in your content? Ariel, Do you have a specific thing that you like to do or that the attorneys like to do?

Speaker 2: 15:36

So our attorneys actually, a lot of times they'll go out to a lot of our events and things and talk to people and are out in the community alongside of us, like, if we're doing an event, if we're doing, you know, a community driven food drive or something like that, we have a lot of R20s who join us. You know, just all of us are out there. So it's, you know, anyone who works in the firm, whether it's the marketing team, whether it's, you know, some people on the floor and, like, whoever it may be, we're all kind of out there. So we do like to do that as well.

Speaker 2: 16:05

As you know, the attorneys sometimes make their own content, so they'll be like, hey, I want to talk about a little bit about what I do. Obviously, like they'll be like, hey, you know, I don't know if you have a certain case or whatever is kind of who I am, and this is something that I want you guys to know. We do a lot of that personalized contact because we want you to know who you're talking to as well, as a big concept of ours is you're always talking to an attorney at our firm. If you call us, it's going to our receptionist and from our receptionist straight to an attorney. You never talk to just a random person. It's someone who's literally going to be handling your case.

Speaker 3: 16:55

Yeah, that's excellent. Let's talk about niches a little bit, because that's really what this show's about. I mean, you guys, I picked this, you guys, because a law firm is very niche-oriented. And you're right, jeff, you can take law as a global and say, well, that's a niche industry. But then you focused because there's opportunity everywhere that they feel like they can solve problems for. But how do you go about kind of isolating more of your ideal client persona? And then, ariel, I'd like you to follow up and let us know how you do that too.

Speaker 1: 17:44

Well, the starting point for me is just looking at the word you use. You said the service industry, see, and they don't want to miss opportunities. But those, those opportunities are mirages. They're a mirage because they're not real opportunities. When you're looking at from a and I look at marketing and branding at multiple levels You've got the overall firm messaging what's that messaging? And I do client profile and then you keep trickling down to the groups, the practice groups, and then to the individual lawyers. And when you get to the individual lawyers it becomes, I think, a matter of them just really being willing to claim what's their personal brand, which means just who are you? I tell people just be yourself.

Speaker 1: 18:29

A quick story that is just so funny is outside the law. But then I bring it back to the law. Years ago I was doing a lot of talks on networking and I was saying to people be careful how you introduce yourself, because if there's stigma and there's a lot of stigma as soon as you say what you do, they label you that. So I said to the group is there anyone in the group who introduced themselves in a unique way? This young guy raised his hand. I said great, stand up. He stands up. I said so how have you introduced yourself? And he said I've introduced myself as an event planner and I said that's awesome. What are you doing? He said I'm a funeral director and that whole room laughed and I thought that is amazing. And I said to him how is that working for you? And he said well, actually I stopped doing it. And I said let me guess you stopped because that turned people, some people off. He said yep, I said there was your mistake. Stopped because that turned some people off. He said yep, I said there was your mistake Because 50% of the people were turned off by that because they don't get you. They weren't going to do business with you anyway. The other 50% are the ones that get that personality, who like that. So you're trying to be everything to everyone. So I think the big thing I'll go back to those layers is on a firm level, get clear on what the firm is, and that's hard because it's made up of all these individuals. What's the river that runs through it? And just ride that pony. And, as you moved in each step down down to the individual lawyers, encourage people to figure out who they are, where the groups that they want to hang out with, they'll fit in too, that they're comfortable with. So people are as much themselves as possible and then be, and I'd really tell, and then be willing to be bolder than you think you can. You know me, monty, even though we've actually never met in person. I, my personality as such, is such and I'll stop this after this quick story.

Speaker 1: 20:32

I go to this event in Orlando once a month now. It's a gathering of entrepreneurial thinkers. Entrepreneurs hate lawyers. They hate lawyers more than other people hate lawyers, because entrepreneurs are trying to figure out how to build their business and they got a lawyer saying give me $10,000. They don't feel disconnected. So I didn't try and sell them a story, I just was myself. I'm very outgoing, I'm very bubbling. So they now look forward every month because they know when I stand up to do my three minutes, I almost never talk about the law. I tell them a story, or like one time I one time I got up and I opened by singing, just started singing from the movie Ghost or from the movie Top Gun, that song.

Speaker 1: 21:21

You've Lost that Love and Feeling. And then at the end they're like this guy's singing. And I said what does that song have to do with the law? Nothing except it. Oh, they said. I said crazy people stand up on the stage and sing and we represent the crazy ones, entrepreneurs like you. That's memorable.

Speaker 3: 21:46

I can't believe you didn't use the elf one I'm singing, I'm singing Dude, I'll find a way to use that. I know you will. That's a fantastic story, Ariel. What's your thoughts?

Speaker 2: 22:06

I think For us, like ariel, what's your thoughts? I think for us, like I mean, I think he put it beautifully for us, I think our thing is more so like our partners are kind of very involved in our business as well, so it's not just like they have a basic company, but they're also super involved. Um, and then I will say, like, reaching our ideal clientele it's obviously our ideal clientele is pretty much carried on. We have really, you know, anyone who drives a car is our client. Anyone who walks down the street is our client.

Speaker 2: 22:39

You know we handle anything from flipping balls to car accidents, so it's really hard to specifically target someone who is in an accident at that moment or has, you know, a situation that relates to personal injury. It's more so we put our name out there and we introduce ourselves to people saying we're really. This is always how we mark ourselves. We really hope you don't need us, but if you do, we're always here, because that's truly how we feel. We want you to know that we are here for you, but we don't want you to need us because we handle something that is so hard.

Speaker 2: 23:10

I know I myself have, you know, that with our students, and not one you can get really hurt from them. And last thing you want to think about is that. So you know, we try and keep it very like we're here for you If you need us. We hope you don't, but that's kind of our thing. As I said, we don't really, unfortunately, we don't really have like that niche where you can kind of determine, like what person to go after as a client. So for us it's just marketing to everyone, kind of saying like what we do, why we're here and, you know, introducing ourselves to people.

Speaker 3: 23:42

Yeah, I can see the conflict there, you know, in that, well, we're technically can be for anybody, as long as they're injured in some way or in some kind of crisis moment, right, and so I would think, if I was in your shoes, what I would be looking to do and it sounds like what you are doing already is humanizing these attorneys relationally Right. Is humanizing these attorneys relationally right Because they have to live in emotions in terms of their clients and where they're coming in? So are you taking the approach that they've got to be very soft? They've got to be, you know, but yet you know bold, if you would, because I'm here for you, I'm fighting for you, type of a deal. How do you go about kind of creating that emotional structure for people?

Speaker 2: 24:33

I think you know our attorneys here fully understand, as I said, we have that family kind of feel.

Speaker 2: 24:39

So we totally like our biggest thing is, you know, even in our commercials, if you listen to, like our radio ads and things like that it's Victor, who is our one of our managing partners, with his daughter talking about accidents and you know, obviously it's relating to a three-year-old girl talking about, you know, having an accident.

Speaker 2: 24:57

You know, as in like you know, her pants being wet or something like that, like something silly or not, putting her seatbelt on in the car and then him explaining to her why it's important. We truly like our biggest goal is to get you back to your normal life and that's kind of what victor and jeremy like and the rest of our team kind of builds and tells people, you know, as I said, we're here for you, but I hope you don't see us. That is something that they share with other people as well. So it's really they're really personable and at the same time it like we want you to get back to your normal life and be able to go to your family and do the things that are actually important to you at the end of the day.

Speaker 3: 25:34

Jeff, I want to come back to your first story about the guy that said that he was an event planner. Okay, so you told him that's because you're too broad. So devil's advocate a little. Yeah, because you're saying 50% of people are not going to like you. 50% of people are going to like you. Okay, okay, yeah, okay, right, right, okay, okay, okay, yeah, okay, right, okay. So you were on.

Speaker 3: 26:16

What I was going to say was I'm totally okay with that. Okay, yeah, I would. That would be my thing too, because who cares? If you're offending 50 of the people, those 50 are probably the people that you don't want to do business with, right, don't? You only want to do yes, all right, so we are on the same page, yep, and I think, too many people.

Speaker 3: 26:37

The reason I wanted to come back to it is I do think that too many people in their industries are afraid to offend other people. Now, you can offend. It can be done poorly by alienating the people that you want. You don't want to offend the people who you do business with, but I had a client a long time ago. He leaned very conservative, very religious guy and he was in the finance industry and he didn't really want to have the clients that leaned more left. He didn't like working with left-leaning people, yet at least 40% of his business was that. So he was afraid if I start telling people how I really feel in my content that I'm putting out on social media and what I'm doing, I'm going to lose 40% of my business.

Speaker 3: 27:31

My pushback was that is aren't you going to gain another 40% if you're out there and that's what you're going for, and isn't your business going to be much better for it in the end? And you'd be more happy doing it, because you don't have to work with people you don't want to. So I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on that too. Are the attorneys? Is that their mindset? Are they totally okay with offending people that they don't want to work with or putting out content that may be viewed as offensive to a particular group of people that maybe they don't care about?

Speaker 2: 28:06

Thank, you, you you.

Speaker 1: 29:42

Thank you. I think it's a slippery slope, though, when you've got people saying you know you got to monitor or audit your content out there. I think that's a slippery slope To some degree.

Speaker 3: 31:00

I totally agree with you. I think that you need to be free to say what you want to say and as business owners, you know which everybody within a law firm somewhat own their own book of business, right, In a sense? Right, If I'm doing business with an attorney and I have multiple times in the past I want to know who they are and I want to know that they think somewhat like me, Because if you're in a position to talk for me and to defend me or whatever, I want to know that we're on the same page together and that I don't have somebody who's going to be so different from me that when I'm standing in whatever situation, that that is where you're supposed to represent me. I want you to represent me and how I think and then tie that to this situation, not be something totally different, and I think that goes for all business-to-business relationships. Would you agree with that, Ariel?

Speaker 2: 32:13

Personally, I will say just the account of monitoring the content that goes through. I don't think we have that issue. I think we stand very like, firmly, in our beliefs and our things that we're proud of through our Black-owned firm. We support, you know, a bunch of different organizations and things like that, and Victor and Jeremy, kind of, have made that vision and that's who we are. We don't hide who we are. We don't, you know, do anything that's going to change that, because that's us, you know, and I think that's really important that we show those things and value those things. I think silencing any of the things that make us who we are and, you know, makes our firm what it is today is extremely, extremely important. I think if anyone's trying to hide it to please a certain audience or anything like that, I I honestly wouldn't understand that, to be honest.

Speaker 3: 33:02

I totally agree with that and you know we're talking about niche, right, and taking something that's large and boiling it down, if you would, into something very focused and this is a great conversation because I think it plays so well into all right how do you identify that niche? And from a legal standpoint, you know, while you want to be free to be able to say anything that you want to say and be yourself, and so on and so forth, you know you are limiting your market in some way if you are out there as an attorney and you're sharing, actually, your views within different areas. You know, jeff, you brought up a good one with the Second Amendment, but are you afraid to do that? Does it limit you in any way if you have the ability to get other business? And then, how do you approach it from a content standpoint, right, is it something that you do, that you just don't, that you maybe don't overly put out there, or are you free to do it and do you really lean into it?

Speaker 2: 34:18

I will say at our firm. I think we're completely free to put you know what you know makes our firm what it is. As I said, you know we support a bunch of organizations and things like that and I think the partners are kind of on the page. It's like this is what we stand for and that's kind of what it is. I don't think, you know, it's been an issue before, at least to my knowledge, but yeah, that's kind of. You know how it's always been here.

Speaker 1: 34:46

And for me, I think the biggest thing that comes to mind is to the degree it's about things that are being put out there, or whatever people's personal content is, the thing that comes to mind is just being um, part of it depends on how it's put out there, is it? Is it just? If I'm putting out what my opinion is, that's my opinion. That's one thing. Versus am I? Am I putting it? Am I really talking about what I think about someone else, like attacking people? That's a different question, because now it's not about the position, it's more about who I am as a person. So I'm just I think that and I'll share this really quick story because it relates to how I got where I am today.

Speaker 1: 35:32

In the last few years, when I moved to Tampa, I didn't know anyone. I literally had no network. I went online and I wanted to meet some lawyers that work with entrepreneurs and did some searching, and the first page on the website on Google was clearly not what I was looking for. All I had to do was go to the websites. I knew it was not it, even though they said they were it. I could tell so then I got to the second page.

Speaker 1: 35:56

I found a very small firm and I went to the managing partners page a guy named Brent and Brent and I go to his page on this corporate website and there's a picture of Brent dressed in a black t-shirt, black jeans and both arms are fully sleeved up with tattoos. And I saw that and I said I got to meet this guy because this is a guy who's clearly willing to be himself. He's in a corporate environment, but this is who he is and I was attracted to him because of who he is and immediately I met him. We became fast friends and then eventually founded this firm together. But the point was, if he hadn't done that, maybe I reach out to him or not. But I reached out to him because I could say this is someone who's willing to be himself and that's what I'm drawn to. Not everybody would be. Some people would see that and say I'm out, that's okay, that's who he is.

Speaker 3: 36:55

Yeah, totally, and I think that that's kind of the way you should do it. How do personal testimonies work into this field? I know that attorneys have to be careful in terms of what they're sharing. They can't share specifics about cases and stuff like that. They can't share specifics about cases and stuff like that. You can have case studies, I would imagine, because I know attorneys do that a lot. How important is it getting testimonies and recommendations from people to your business session for Google and everything else when people are searching that out? Is it very important to you guys? Do you really work on it, or is it not so important?

Speaker 2: 37:44

I can jump in here. So our reviews really, for us, are like a huge deal, because we really do like to know that our clients are happy. They felt like they were cared for. You know, and it's kind of you know, our bread and butter is just knowing what your experience was and, you know, hearing that means a lot to us, really does.

Speaker 2: 38:03

You know, our attorneys take these cases personal. As I said, these people who come in they become like family to us. You know we want them to be able to get back to their normal lives and feel like they were cared for and everything was possible. So not only from, only from, like you know, a standpoint of google and you know, marketing wise and getting out there the name. It's a huge deal for us as well because, as I personally like, those cases are so important to us and those people are so important to us and we want, you know, we want to hear what they have to say about us as a firm and their experience with us. Like we, you know, it's just the way. We know that you know we're doing the right thing and that the cases are handled the right way.

Speaker 1: 38:47

And I would say I don't have a whole lot to offer on this other than to confirm what you said. Lawyers have to be really careful because there's a ton of restrictions on anything like that and how you get them and where you put them, and every state is different. I mean, I will tell you just somewhat anecdotally for example, florida is one of the most monitored state in terms of marketing and things like that, but every state's a little different. I mean, I think where I see the value of that, I think it absolutely has great value in terms of the one-on-one conversations or what people are saying about you to others. The restriction and that's sometimes lawyers forget about that the restrictions. Restrictions are like putting things on your website. You got to be careful and follow the guidelines. That's what I would say. Follow the guidelines, but you know there's still no better endorsement than one person telling another person. I really think you should talk to them because I trust them, I value their work. Whatever they, whatever they cared about me.

Speaker 3: 40:07

That's what I think we can do a better job of creating those conversations, as opposed to what's going to be posted in places. I agree with that. How do you create them?

Speaker 2: 40:15

How do you create those conversations? So for us, as I said, our reviews are all from people. Obviously there's no details of you know exactly what they thought in the case, because that's just not who we are, you know. It's more so had the case was handled like, hey, I spoke to x attorney, they really took care of my case really well. Appreciate you guys. Um, you know things like that. That's kind of what I mean when I'm saying reviews and of that nature. Um, so it's more so you know just the actual service of the experience and the people are posting it themselves. So that kind of feedback is important to us because we want to know what we're handling exactly. Don't do like those situations I know I've seen a few on television where you have someone who comes in and personally talks about their case. That's not something we do. It's more so, again, just for us to receive the feedback, to know what's going on. That's more so why we have it in place.

Speaker 1: 41:15

Well, from my side I would say there's a real opportunity for could be a double or a triple dip or more, and part of it it also ties into ways that I believe is an effective way to build our business and that is to help others build their business. And too often lawyers, without knowing it, fall into a trap of being highly transactional and trying to figure out what they can get. When I started my own firm, I'd been with a big firm, started my own firm. I made a personal decision that I wanted to be the phone call. I wanted to be the guy that people called for anything they needed and I became that guy and 99% of the time they didn't need a lawyer and they didn't need me and they didn't need me. But when they called I said you know what I can help you with that. I've got Monty here who can help you with this social media strategy. I trust him, I know him, here's the guy. So I start making those referrals when they called and then I also make those introductions. When I'm not asked, I'll just say you know, you guys ought to really talk to each other. I don't do it to set up that endorsement, but they happen and I'll tell you really quick.

Speaker 1: 42:24

I was very honored that this happened. No intention with it. I was at this conference, as I said, this week. I invited one of my clients there just to meet other people and I introduced him to a lot of people just because that's for his benefit, not my benefit. I only did it for him, it was completely unselfish. And then a couple of those people later saw me and said, hey, it was really great to meet John Boy. John really loves you. He really went on and on about how he loves working with you and how much impact you've had on his business. And I was honored and I thought, wow, that's really incredible. That was not even on my mind. But the point is we, the, the opera, the, those conversations can happen organically when we plant the seeds of helping others by connecting people, and when that happens they're naturally going to tell the story.

Speaker 3: 43:18

There was no design in it, but there were two or three wins in it, including for them yes, it's really excellent, you know, when testimonials, if you would, are kind of important for everybody and when you're in a service-based industry, you know, I mean they just are. When you're able to get into organic referral through those testimonies and stuff, that's just like gold, right, jeff, you're so excellent at telling stories and I know that for marketing, creating those stories to help people own and personalize, write what you want and be memorable is super important. How do you guys use story in your marketing to make that happen?

Speaker 2: 44:14

I think for us it's more so. Just, you know we kind of share what we do, in the sense of like we're really proud of what we do. And you know the things we do in the community and the things we do everywhere and you know just kind of sharing those things with people. Obviously, like our managing partners are kind of the face of our company, so they pretty much so we'll talk about their backgrounds, their experiences, the things that are important to them.

Speaker 2: 44:43

As I said, you know Victor is a family man. He kind of brings his family into things a lot of times. Jeremy's very fitness related, so he does a lot of stuff about, you know, health and fitness, getting involved in marathons and things like that. Sharing you know different things about marathon to things like that. Sharing you know different things about holidays and tips like that. We're just very, you know, present and kind of share. You know what matters to us and you know really it's Victor and Jeremy sharing their stories with people and kind of what's important to them and how his firm became what it is and how his firm became what it is.

Speaker 1: 45:20

Well, I think there's two elements. First, you've got to start with the willingness to embrace storytelling as, I think, one of the most, if not the most powerful tool in marketing and business development and branding, because until you embrace that, you're going to struggle because you don't believe in it. I happen to believe in it. The second thing is stories are the most memorable form of communication and I think it's one of the best ways to differentiate. And part of the challenge is on an individual basis. A lot of people don't think they're good storytellers, but I think we're all natural storytellers until we start putting too much pressure on ourselves and we try and come up with the perfect story. So I think there's the higher level what's the firm story and what's the story about the firm? That's one story. But then take information and I don't know if I made up this word, I'm not sure I've seen it before, but I love the word story eyes, where you take data and you turn it into a story. And the example I use is like when someone goes home and says to whoever they live with their partner or whatever their friend, they say you know, what'd you do today? You don't say well, I got up at this time and I filled out six forms today. No, you tell them a story about your day and I've learned, you know, as a lawyer, this is probably the most important tool, because no one wants to hear you talk about yourself.

Speaker 1: 46:56

They love asking questions about themselves if they're asked in a genuine way. So typically, when I am getting to the point of actually talking about the law, I'm going to tell them a story, and some of them are new, some of them I hear every day. I just tell them a story and say that's one of the reasons we do what we do because we don't want this to happen. And usually that creates a conversation with more questions, and once you get a conversation going, especially on an interpersonal level, the deal is done. Now they're either like you or don't like you. They trust you or they don't, and that's okay. That's life. If you think everybody's going to like and trust, you, get over it. But I think the key is to embrace the power of stories, and then that makes everything you do come through the lens of stories.

Speaker 3: 47:47

Yeah, I totally agree with that and it's such good advice to you know that not everybody's going to lie to you and that's absolutely okay. We're coming down to the last few minutes. You guys have been so fantastic. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on the future of marketing within your space. Tons of AI, tons of new tools, tons of you know change, if you would, for everybody, no matter the industry. Is there anything that you guys see coming that's going to either reshape or kind of change the trends of what's happening in your industries from a marketing standpoint?

Speaker 2: 48:33

I definitely think there'll be an influx of more information. Probably. An influx of more information, probably. But my thing is, I just feel like, even though AI has been out for a little bit now and people have been utilizing it, there's such a difference between using an AI to create things versus having a human being actually write their story. Going back to that whole storytelling aspect, there's emotion that goes into storytelling. There's, you know, an actual human behind it. When you have a computer generating it, it's completely a different feeling. There's obviously ways I think it'll be utilized in to kind of match with the human kind of working with it, but I don't think we've gotten to that point yet. So I think there's. I think there'll just be more updates to kind of how that works and then that will change the course of the way marketing is done. But I still think that there's nothing like a human touch to things. I think that personal touch is what sets you apart from everyone else, to be honest.

Speaker 3: 49:31

Well, I totally agree.

Speaker 1: 49:34

My perspective is very similar. I think that you know things like AI, like in the law industry, there's a couple levels of AI coming into the law. One is there are ways AI is already making law firms more efficient and that allows them to provide a better experience for their clients, and that's good and it's a good use, and I think that'll continue to evolve. I think a lot of the AI talk right now in the law has I'm borrowing a TV term they jumped the shark because people are building AI that's completely like to go try a case for you. You know what that might happen in my lifetime, but it's not this week. It's way down the road.

Speaker 1: 50:14

I will say this there's going to come a time and lawyers I don't want to think about this there will come a time that AI or similar will replace some of the key functions of a lawyer. They will. And lawyers the thing I say about AI is lawyers either need to figure out how to integrate it or get run over by it. And the last piece I'll say is and a bit of this is borrowed from I wish I could remember the author the more we automate and grow and expand technology, the most important thing comes back to what Ariel said, is the ability to humanize it, to keep it high touch, to keep the human element. Because, as much as things change, the things that are done, especially in the law side what lawyers need to understand is which is still not happening is most of what they do that adds the most value is not the nuts and bolts.

Speaker 1: 51:13

A lot of people could do that. It's how they do it. How do they relate? How do they interact with their clients? How do their relate? How do they interact with their clients? How do their clients feel? Because, if you think about this, you know the number one complaint, the number one basis for bar complaints against lawyers is lack of communication. It's not mistakes, it is lack of communication and people feeling like they don't matter. And so the degree to which we can continue to be human and never forget that these are humans serving humans, we will be on a good path when we lose sight of that we're going to run into trouble.

Speaker 3: 51:54

That's so well said. You know, we crave relationships, we need relationships, and there's no AI that will ever remove that from the human existence, right? So from that standpoint, that falls right in line with what we've been talking about throughout this entire thing how do you get more personal with your audience and how do you put a face to the brand, if you would? So you guys have been exceptional. Thank you so much for joining me today. All the information that you guys shared and pulled out of your brains was just fantastic. Hope everybody has enjoyed this episode of the Marketer. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.