#37 - NICK EGAN - Gambling Addiction in Australia

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🎙️ In this episode of the Planet MEW Podcast, I chat with Nick Egan, a former gambling addict in Australia, about his inspiring journey from rock bottom to recovery. We explore the culture of gambling in Australia, the fight for his life, and his advice for others battling similar struggles.

🚀 Timestamps:
👉 01:14 - Where it all started
👉 13:05 - Debt
👉 21:24 - Cultural problem
👉 35:55 - Spiritual problem
👉 45:50 - Anger
👉 48:40 - Self love
👉 52:30 - Advice for those struggling with gambling
👉  1:05:45 - How much did you lose?
👉  1:14:26 - A note from Nick's journal at the turning point

🔗 Related Links:
The full blog post with resources, references, and transcript can be found on my website: www.planetmew.com.au

📞 Need Help?
If you or someone you know is struggling with gambling addiction, contact the Gambler’s Help Line (Australia) at 1800 858 858 for free, confidential support.

📲 Follow Nick Egan:
Instagram: @nickegan7

🪐 Plz subscribe if you CBF because the children need me x.

Transcript

0:00

Hi. My name is Nick. I'm a compulsive gambler, and today marks 758 days since my last bit. So today's guest is Nick Gagan, aka my sister's boyfriend. And when I first met Nick, we spoke about his past with gambling addiction and both the Great would be a really interesting podcast episode. I think there must be a lot of people around Australia in the world who are struggling with this in secret, and probably carry a lot of shame around that. And so I feel really proud of Nick for being so open about it, and I feel really honoured that he chose. My podcast is like the place to share his story. So you might also notice that this is the first, video interview that I have, and I did the whole set up, the whole set myself, and it was just like too much work, to be honest. So the next one or future episodes with interviews will be filmed in a studio in Geelong. So if you guys want to help the channel, to help me pay for that and to help the channel grow, then you can subscribe to my YouTube. It's probably the best way to like, help me. Or if you, you know, have commitment issues and you can just watch the video, I hope it'll help me too. Okay, enjoy. Spanish to Me. Podcast is the journey of discovery. I think I want to go back to the start. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Yeah I guess like a way for you. Where does the story start. I suppose for me. When I was, I would have been like 13, 14 in high school, I went to an all boys school where, you know, gambling was just something we did as kids. Like, we would, flip coins in the yard to get more money, to go buy something at the canteen or having shots from the girls, like, sorry, having shots on goal and playing footy and things like that and betting with each other, was something that I experienced. Yeah. From the age of 13, 14 for me. And even that, like, where did that like, did you see people around you growing up who were gambling or like, was it just like a game? Almost like It was just a game. It was just something. It was just a bit of a laugh. It was something, you know, that culture we had together as married to kind of like a bond that we did, it was something that we would, you know, do on a weekend. And that's kind of how it all started for me. And then obviously being such so into sports, American and Australian rules footy was something that really drew me to, you know, you know, I've really loved that as a sport. But I like to, by the end of it really loved having a bet on as well. Okay. And like, what did having a bet on it look like at the start. Yeah. So betting on it at the start was quite funny. Probably throwing my brother under the bus here that used to get him to put bets on for me when he was 18. And then old were you at this stage? I was probably like 15. 16. Yeah. Yeah. You used to tell me I'm going down to the supermarket or going to matches or something. You would be down at the pub putting a bet on for me, watch the races, the next day, or to watch the footy that night. But yeah, that's, that's how it started for me. And also, something that you used to be able to do. They probably cracked down on a fair bit now that when I was in high school, online betting was just starting to really, you know, come into play and it was starting to become quite accessible for people. And, you used to be able to set up accounts and deposit money into them. But you actually could never withdraw. So that's actually something that I used to do when I was 16, 17 and, had access to do. But regardless, whatever you want, you could you can never actually withdraw that money without being 18. So it's oh, okay. Right. So they let you have accounts and but they wouldn't let you. Yeah. Happy to take your money, but not happy to give it to you. Well, which so just explains the whole industry, I feel. But like we'll get back to Yeah. And then so when you're at, like this age, like, how much were you betting or spending on gambling? Always spending, any pretty much anything I could get my hands on. So Like canteen lunch money and. Yeah, whether it was, like $5 I would like to save, you know, I think it was like $2 for a sausage roll back at the school canteen. Or pizza was three, $3. That was probably right up my alley. Or, you know, I wasn't going any of the healthy options. And that would probably give me another$2, $3 to hit the odd with and flip any of that got, if I won with, that would be getting some sort of ice cream or an up and go, I reckon. Yeah. So that's what you spend your. Yeah, yeah. But it's like an incentive and like looking back on it now, it's like it's actually such a driving factor of, you know, kind of where my gambling actually stemmed from to win, to progress, to get something better and to have more money to do something else. Yeah. Yeah. And especially at that age, like just an extra ten bucks can, like, matter. But I resonate what you're saying because I used to say my, like lunch money buy alcohol you'd only need like six bucks for. So, Yeah, yeah. Well, lagoons are. Like, actually, I didn't get into gear until I was like 21, but, Yeah. But anyway, I so then like, when, like, even then, we're losing more than you're winning at that age. Drinking. Yeah. For sure. Like, I started, my first part time job at biggest a lot, and I was just. Any time I, like, got a little bit of money, the first thing that I would always think of was, how much money do I need to, you know, have a couple of drinks on the weekend with your friends, but also, you know, whatever I didn't have for that or whatever my lifestyle was like at that time. I was just betting pretty much anything I had at the time. And so I had no value for money pretty much at a very young. Age. Like monopoly money, almost like Pretty much just like fun tokens comes in one hand out the other. Yeah. And like, did any part of you think, like, maybe this isn't a good thing if I'm losing more than I'm winning? Like or not really. I never I never had that mentality. I, I actually strongly believe my gambling addiction has started since I was that age. And the mindset of having no value for money and not caring if I lose, that was just something that I've always had, and I never cared what what I lost. And that progressively is how you know how. That's why the whole way of my life really, up until I stopped gambling. But yeah, just it just not having any, any sense of what this is worth. And if I don't have that tomorrow, you know, and I'm actually need that. I've always just got my parents to fall back on like that was. That was my mentality. And, it's it's very selfish way to think, but yeah, it's it's just kind of how I was. No, I can relate to that as well. Like and it's good in lots of ways. But then yeah, I can understand it being bad and all of this as well. But so what was the age where you like it actually really started becoming like a problem. It started becoming a problem for me when I was, I think I was about 20, 20 to 21, I was always working full time. I was always the one that of my friends that had always had a full time job since when I was 19, started, you know, full time work, 40 hours a week. I was always quite good with my money and not always. I was always the friend that I had the money. Like always, always giving loans to my friends who, you know, having been betting themselves, but also maybe some friends who, were at uni and didn't have, you know, the kind of money I did. I was always that type of person. But it then got to the stage where all my friends started working, and I was probably my betting had just increased. And when I was probably about 2021, I kind of had a couple of realisations that, yeah, like, I'm probably out of out of control of it here, but I tried to rein it in a couple of times. I think, I used to only be maybe once a or twice a week. It would be on the weekends, Thursday nights, preferably. I'd love the greyhounds. Then I'd bet on the footy on Friday. But I would never be in luck during the week as much as I was. And I think I hit about 20 to 21. Sorry to kind of do a bit of a loop there, but once I got to that stage, I found that I was betting every day. It was, it was on my break. It was after work, before work, even before footy training, before games, half time at footy games, checking footy scores or something and then straight away after the footy game I'll just be seeing the writing results save I'd want to know and that's when I kind of realised that, you know, I think a lot of people around me knew I was betting, but I knew that I was. It had really consumed most of my life at that point. And yeah, it was probably probably my identity for the best part of 5 or 6 years from then. So like when you're at the age of like, say, 21 or whatever, where you're bidding just twice a week Yeah. versus when you're almost every spare hour. How much were you putting in in when you're not 21 and how much. Yeah. Well, yeah. When I was like 21, I was probably betting I was probably earning about$1,400 a fortnight, $1,500 a fortnight. Then I wouldn't have any of that left by then. Whether that would be going out. I think that's the stage of your life where you you're hitting the nightclubs, you're you're partying, you're you're always out and about. You're you're not really missing a dogfight at that point. You're always at somewhere. But I was always if I wasn't spending my money on that, always betting every single dollar of that, like so I'd say I was probably losing probably at least $1,000 a fortnight. And to the stage where, like, living expenses, like car insurance, things like registration like that, that wasn't even getting paid by that point. My, my money was solely going to Tab or, another betting agency, whoever it was that I had an account where that was my majority of my paycheque, 80% was going towards that. And would you budget that? Would you be like, okay, I'm going to spend a thousand on gambling this week, like, oh, this fortnight, like. Yeah, yeah, it would piss me off if I had to spend something on money, on something. So, like, if I was going on a holiday and or had someone's birthday or, you know, something that I had done because my significant purchase for or. Or. It just annoyed me. Yeah. I was like, this is like, I've got these coming up in two weeks. And then the driving factors of like, betting larger than increase for that purchase. So I would be like, I've lost. Let's just say I had a, I was buying flights for like to go on a holiday and that was $500. And I've lost that $500 that day, one of being paid for that fortnight. Then I'm trying to chase my losses for the rest, to try and try and make up for what I actually needed the money for originally. I'm trying to gain your mind a little bit. So the fact that you're budgeting every fortnight, you're understanding that you're losing more than you're winning. Yeah. And so how did you kind of justify that to yourself? Did you tell yourself, well, you know, this is fun. This is my entertainment at like, some people, you know, Yeah. pay for Netflix, I pay for gambling. That's my fun. Or was it more just like, I'll get it back one day? Like, all I always just had the mentality that at some stage I'd have a big break, and, I would just be, like, at the stage where sometimes you'd have a thought where you'd be like, shit, I've lost so much money. Like I've. It's it's now June, doing my tax return of love. I can actually see how much of earned for the year. And I'll have, I'll have under $100 in my bank account, like that. That was you kind of have ways where that would come into your mind. And then I would be like, I'm gonna have a big win, and then I'm just gonna stop bidding. And that would just never come along like you. Never. I never had, you know, a major, massive win when I was of that age where it was going to stop me from gambling. At that point, it was that was me. That was what I did. And, at that stage, anything between, you know, if I had won, like, $1,000, that was probably a big win, but. enough for you to stop. Oh, No, no, I lock Arqiva out of one like in the tens of thousands that back then I probably would have classified that as I've done a great job. I'm going to start betting, but if I'm if I'm being honest, there's absolutely no way I would have given it up like that. Winning big is the worst thing that can possibly happen to a gamble. Yeah. So they call it, for gamblers. Like if it's, you get like in Gamblers Anonymous, they kind of talk about, one of the trades is like bailing people out. And something I've discussed with my cancer before as well, like, bailouts are the worst thing that can happen to someone. And bailouts and winning a big is it's all it's kind of the same thing, like it gives you financial freedom. But really basically the habits never going to change. No. You just it's just a free hit. And for me, the more I want the average bit size would just increase. So it was going pretty quick. Any time I did have any substantial type of win. And did you end up getting into debt? Yeah, plenty. So I, I made I'd still owed my parents to this day I've tied them back a fair bit in the last 18 months, which, was about $35,000, which, took every ounce of what I have in me to pay and was a lot of, a lot of hard times through that. Journey of paying them back. But that's, that's very minor of what I'd probably I them, I think would be upwards of 150 to probably $200,000. And yeah, saying that now I'm like makes makes my stomach churn. But at the time that's not. I must be so proud of you that you've gotten out of it now. Yeah, yeah. Without them, I'd fucking hate to know where I'd be. Or if even I don't think I'd be here. So And like. Like what? Did you get to a point where you just, like, you couldn't see a way out? Or was it. Yeah, I. I never, I never was going to give up. And I was never going to give up gambling. I'd just, I never I didn't want to, but what it took to was, I had I had a partner at the time, and our relationship ended because of that. And because of the person that I'd become. And that was becoming very taxing on her at the time. And, you know, we parted ways because of that. And, that, that that changed my life. That sent me back into my mum and dad's house. That just made me very nearly broke me at the time emotionally, but it kind of made me think, like, okay, like, look what just happened. Then look at all the financial that you're in. You'll you'll lose you next thing you know loses you, mate. But and then the next thing you'll lose after that is probably your family. But I was more worried about like, hey, Nick, like, what's going to happen to you? Like, I didn't know I was scared, I was yeah, I remember one day driving home and being very, very scared of the thoughts that were going in my mind. I. Yeah, I it took to the realisation to be like, I have to start looking after myself now or else. Yeah, I was driving one day and to be honest, I wanted to drive my car into a into a pole and that's how, that's how I felt. And I felt so broken emotionally and to to do that to my parents, after all they had done for me, would be the most selfish thing I could ever have done. But what I then really had my sister, who I love a lot, but I probably don't show it to her, but she was someone that just gave me some really fucking, like, hard, tough love and was like, my mom and dad probably would have bail me out if I could have again. And she was just like, not, he's got to do this. He's got to work this out. And then she was really like, what are you doing to make yourself better? What are you doing? You know, cancelling. Are you saying, are you going to meetings? Did you gamble today? And I really needed someone like that at the time to really strike me off. And it's something I'll be forever grateful for. And the rest of my life is just the way that that changed my life. But yeah, it you never going to defeat gambling unless you have that support around you, which I'm very lucky to have. But you also have to look into the mirror one day and say, you know, this isn't May look, this is not who I want to be. This is not who I want my my nieces, my nephews. To look up to. And this isn't who my friends should be friends with, or my family members should have to deal with on a daily basis. So, yeah, I've got so many people that helped me change. But, I can never take myself and off like a selfish, as arrogant as that sounds like. Yeah. Like I'm I'm. I'm, rock inside now. Like I've built myself up to be such a strong human being, to overcome this. But, yeah, the journey's only just getting started, though. Yeah. And it was interesting because you said something similar recently like, you feel like all that was meant to happen and like, you know, meeting my sister as well and like that it made you all stronger. And so is that how you look at it? Like it was all like, almost. I don't wanna say you grateful for it, but it's all like you find meaning in it, and it, like, helps make it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll look it. Yeah, I'll, I'll look at it like your sister just dropped me off here, half an hour ago, and. Yeah, like, jeez, she's changed my life in so many ways than I could have possibly imagined. But she's give me a good perspective on on life and a different perspective of life. We've had such different, you know, ways of growing up. So far. And to meet someone at this age, who's mature, a kind and, like, as nurturing as she is, as my my transition of opening up about being a gambling addict to someone I don't even fucking know. Like, so comfortable. So I'll never, ever be able to kind of put into words how easy that transitions game. But to more more to your point is like everything does happen for a reason. Like this is this is my story. This is why I'm here. This is why I'm still alive. And and why I'm thriving as well. So yeah, I do. I do believe that there's there's something behind why all this happened to me. And you just got to use it for the greater good. And and not dwell on those really hard times or, Yeah, just dwelling on financial debt and, you know, being behind in life at this age at 29, like, it's okay. And I'm okay with myself. There's nothing that can ever be, you know, hard work. Yeah. that, like, your sister and your family, kind of like you said, held your responsible and, like, made you pay back the debt. So that is that that was that helpful in your recovery like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So between our relationship ending and the like. No, I'm not getting bailed out. That's true. That would just like, solidified how you need to sort this shit out yourself. If, if I had to got bailed out lock up. Yeah. Like I probably would have. I wouldn't have cared. Like I'm not going to say hi. I would have 100% given up gambling, but for my parents and sister to kind of really put the foot down and say like, hey, we're not doing this. This is on you. Now, I really believe that that's something that has made me really realise, you know, what money is and what value a dollar is or, you know, buying your own lunch on a lunch break, like being able to afford. There is those little things in life when every other day was a struggle or I wasn't even spending money on myself to to eat or drink or do anything. It was just strictly on a race or a sport. And yeah, I think that is such a good turning point for me to kind of realise that, yeah, that's you get to change. And what are you hoping to get out of like this conversation? Because it feels almost like what you've gone through is giving you purpose. Yeah. So I just want this is someone that listens to this that, is uncomfortable in the in their own skin at the moment and, you know, needs help, needs help. And for some people, they don't have what I've got. I don't have a family, I don't have a friends, that I have a, you know, strong partner to back them. You know, some people don't have that, so I just. Yeah. Really wanted to do jump on here and tell my story about gambling. So hopefully you can relate to someone that'd be like, hi, I'm actually not doing okay. Or hey, I think my gambling's out of control because, yeah, it's it's it's this all in addiction and gambling addiction does not discriminate against anyone. It'll it'll get anyone. And without you even knowing. Well, I really want to say, like, I'm really proud and grateful for you for even, like, sharing your story because, like, there's a quiet about shame and it's like, you know, if you put shame in a petri dish, it needs like three things to survive. Like, one is like secrecy, silence and judgement, I think. yeah, And I think you being open about it, it takes away the shame, not just from you, but from other people that, like you said, it's silent. I think so many people in our culture are going through so many things, but it's all like hush hush beneath the surface. And I think, like, what you doing? Bringing it up to the surface. Even though it's self-sacrificial in a way, I think that that will just have ripples that you won't even know about. We interrupt this broadcast for a message from our sponsors? Are you tired of Karens approaching you? So what do you do for a living? Introducing new clothing. Wear this and no Karen will ever approach you again. New clothing now available at planet me.com dot you. So Australia leads globally in gambling losses per capita. So like one of, if not the biggest gambling countries in the world, right. And the social cost here is $7 billion, like, so I think like, there's this huge problem with gambling, a culture that no one's really talking about. Like, I don't hear it like that commonly just spoken about. So why do you think it's so common? It's just it's just what we are like. It's where we're. We're known for our spring races. We're known for, sport like footy and and or AFL and and NRL. So that's what we're known for. And that's where these companies, they just target and like, you can't watch the TV now without saying anything on the TV. But it's like question. It's hard to know why this is our culture. Whether it's got something to do with laws, regulations, what they can promote, like at the moment, I can just feel like they can just shove this marketing down your throat at the moment and like, if you go over to another country, let's say the United States, they can only bet in certain certain states, they can't get in like, you know, I don't know the specific details on all of the countries, but you can't bet in some countries and, in some like Asian, South East Asian company, country. Sorry. You can't even bet it's actually illegal to bet in, in those particular countries themselves. So I'm not sure why astrology is any different. I wish it was like some of those countries where it was heavily regulated, but at the moment it just feels like someone's profiting off this. And I'll. Yeah, give a shout out to my councillor, Jan Ames, who is one of the driving forces in Australia. Anti-gambling ads. And she's really she's been on, the ABC before, and she's written been in a many articles to kind of promote this to why it's being thrown down. That's right. So watching an AFL ad, AFL football game while I was all these just being thrown at us all the time, and while there's no one doing anything about it and yeah, I just feel like if someone wants to come live, live their life with me or. The the. Like, whoever's running these gambling companies or these, Australian racing, if they want to spend the day in my head, they can feel free to say how that affects someone. Yeah. I mean, like, it's totally you're right. Entwined with everything. So, like, football and, like, you said something about, like, high school, like, is there a gambling culture at school. I don't know, basic I would say yes. Actually 100%. Yes. I would think that at an all boys school, mainly because that's, that's something you do when you're an adolescent and your, your, your kids, like. It was funny because like, I never I went to an all girls school so maybe it's It's. Probably a little different there, but. Oh, you never know. As I said, it doesn't discriminate. But it's it's just something we did. Yeah. Like I, I don't know like oh no I'm not sure about the years above me, but I know the people I may at our school, they're into the same stuff that we were. I like writing sports betting multis like multis, was just the word of everything. Now it's it's during the same game. Old like PayPal, PayPal, like I got a free card. I like a free card. And everyone's talking about the same guy Maltese and all that garbage. Like, it's just. Yeah, just. I'm not sure why the males in particular. It does like they do seem to gravitate towards it. Yeah. And I think a lot of it is, programming, like, Yeah. a culture, like you said, really does, like shoved down our throat and even, like, looking into the psychology of, some of the machines and how they work on you, like, here are some of the ways that they like psychologically get you. So intermittent rewards. So it keeps you engaged because it's like the uncertainty. Right. So there's always like, you know, when one minute you get a reward, five minutes late, you get another one that like when's it going to come? And I kind of get that like, I, I've been on the pokies and it doesn't do much for me, like, I feel that, Yeah. the losses disguised as wins, that's a big one, right? Like they make it sound like you won money, but you lost, you Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. misses, but you like, oh, I just got out. And, I also like the light sounds, you know, reminiscent of, like, childhood toys, things Yeah. Yeah. some real serious, like, psychological warfare going on, like. And the end of the day, it's interesting because, like, they like the pokies and stuff, they wouldn't. They're business. Right? So at the end of the day, they're making more money than you are. Like, Yeah. So it's kind of crazy that, you know, and then you think, well, why are they even allowed to do that? And then you think, well, maybe, you know, the government is like taxing them, making money off that. But then when you look at the statistics of it's costing us like, you know, socially like $7 billion billion like a year and that's things is in life lost productivity and mental health and things like that. Yeah. It's just really interesting. Like what do you what have you heard. Like what does Jan say is like one of the main reasons why she thinks it's a layout, like. I think with like AFL and NRL, like that's they generating so much they're profiting off that. Like you go to the, Marvel Stadium or the MCG or and you're looking at the big screen and it say that sponsored by one of them, you get a live update on the odds for some unknown reason. You need to know the odds while you're at a game of footy. And what's that like for you going to the footy now like. At least I used to drive me insane. Luck. Yeah, probably in the first 90 days of my of my gambling recovery. Like, I was luck. But I remember being at home with mum and dad once and turning the fire and, turning the TV on mute because I was like, this is just ridiculous. Like, I'm a, I'm a I'm a young man trying to I'm trying to change. And there is just like ad after ad after ad. And I remember, like, me and my mom still talk about this and discussing it about, you know, do you remember that time in which we literally just turned on mute because it was frustrating me. I actually felt like my head was going to explode. Like it was like I remember going to bed, like frustrated. Like, now I don't I'm not I'm very desensitised to that. And I've done, a lot of work with my cancer. A m, it's cold, which is, a lot of people use it for post-traumatic stress disorder. And for me, what that did is just really desensitised. Desensitised myself to, gambling as a whole, certain situations. But in the long, like, lasting effects of that, I really think that those TV ads are not. I don't even, like, think about them anymore or that don't bother me. I kind of I've actually laughed a few times. I'm like, this just looks like the shit is like promo of all time. Like it's like, don't get me wrong, they're getting quite creative with some of the ads, but some of them are just so bad. Yeah. And they really pull in like, the Aussie like average Aussie bloke and shit, and it's like clear manipulation. But what I like and what have been some of the biggest temptations that you've had in the past 700 and X days? 758 no, no, no. You're right. Yeah. Who's counting? Yeah. Not me, I say, no, I just temptations. I, I think I've been really fortunate with my recovery. Like, I've never had. I've not I haven't had an urge since I have stopped giving up gambling. I've had thoughts about gambling. I've, I've thought, should I, I should not, and, Yeah, my, my brain has kind of taken over for the good in that aspect where it's, it's shot those urges off and I haven't actually had that many times where I'm like really fighting it, like, really need to have another bit. But in saying that, like, I just aren't I don't put myself in situations where that's ever going to happen. Like, it's like to give you example, three weeks ago I went to a box day, in Sydney, and one of the days was we went to the races and I just, I just think, like, I, I don't need to go to that, like, I know who I am. Like, I know what I'm capable of. I know, I know those dark thoughts that I've had. And for me now, all I will do is, yeah, if we're going to go to a pub, let me know where we're going and I'll, I'll meet you there and I'll make the decision whether I'm going to go there. So I won't go to a pub that's going to Tab. I'm just not comfortable with that. Like, if it's a family dinner and we're going, you know, to catch up with someone, you know, that's that's okay. But I'm not going to go hang out with my mates and have a few beers when I'm, you know, probably in a vulnerable state, being under the influence of alcohol, like, I'm not I'm not going to make myself be uncomfortable if I don't have to be. So, yeah, I think it's just taking ownership of, you know, the setting you're going to put yourself in. But it's also like putting yourself, surrounding yourself with good people, like, my best friends Tim and Zach, they're they're like the top people that I've really looked up at. Looked out for me the most. And, not to say that all my other mates have, because they've all played their role in so many ways, but those two in particular for me have always, you know, been really careful of, like where, where we're going to go like, hey, we're going to go out for dinner, then we might go have a beer, but you know, we're not going to go sit in the park. So like, not to say that I don't do that anymore, but if I'm there, I make it really conscious effort to really like, you know, let's not do that. Let's not put him you know, in a situation that he's uncomfortable with. And yeah, it's something I'm so grateful for. But that's just little things along the way. Is that to help yourself recover, you need to surround yourself with those type of people that are going to look after Yeah, that makes me like happy to hear because I was going to ask, like, how was it hard, almost like breaking up with friend groups and things because there have been people who try to, like, kind of tempt you back to that side. Like, you be right, you've overcome it now. Like. I, I'd no, I don't think so. I've never had anyone kind of talk down on it. I've been really open about. I think it's what I lost. Like I lost more than just money. Like I lost, like, a lot of relationship at the time. And that was probably really sensitive to people with kind of like, like it was touchy for me. It wasn't like. Like I lost more than just, yeah, like a couple of hundred dollars or a couple hundred thousand dollars. But that that's why people would block my friends in particular. Probably really like, you know, that gambling led you to lose more than just, you know, you like, almost your life. So I think for me, I never had people like, I'd never to my face, you know, people always talk like, oh, and kind of talk shit behind you. But if if anyone had ever done that to me, that's that's okay. They're obviously just insecure about something. I can't help that. But if they want to have a chat, feel free. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm very comfortable with who I am. And. Yeah, as I said, I'm day 750 and tomorrow I'll be day out. Day 759. And I'm just getting one more day of just getting better and being a better person. So yeah, I'm not I'm not worried really about what anyone thinks, to be honest. Some I don't really care anymore. But yeah, two years ago, I would have been very insecure if and yeah, the fact that people 100% were definitely talking about it. And so they should have been because I was doing some pretty bad stuff. But like, yeah, I think I've grown so much now to not not really worry about that and just. And do you have like a, like a goal, like a thousand days in like 10,000 days or like. Yeah, I really wo last year I went to I took, I really wanted to get to a year, and took my mates, I organised, you know, we went to Toddies down in Lorne, which is fantastic. But then I really wanted to get to two years, and now I'm just like, I just want to just. I just want to get these days off as long as I possibly can. Like, like, I don't know how long the last expectancies of of someone like me. But if I can make it to my the rest of my life without having a bit, that's that's all I want to do. Like, yeah, it'll be really cool when I say for full figures up there, that's, that's going to be pretty impressive. But I'm just looking forward to the next day as much as any of those coming out. Yeah. Sounds like a personal. I actually haven't, but, like. I feel like it a lot. Like, it's for me. Like, it's. It sounds like so corny, but, like, every day to wake up and just just be. This is is my present. Like. Yeah. Like, this is, this is me. I'm so. I'm so happy in it, in my own skin. I've got great home life, great family, great friends. Like, that's that's my present to me. And if I didn't, if I didn't stop gambling, I wouldn't have any of this right now. So yeah, for me, it's it's very, very important to keep keep the chains moving and, you know, keep, keep progressing. These days and not not ever turn my back on. You know what I used to be. Just embrace it. And yeah, but I have made a couple of good purchases like which is nice. And I never ever would have had the money to ever buy like a new drive, a golf club or any, any, any shoes or clothes or anything. Like I never would've had money to do that. So I do a lot of do like to treat myself and does make me feel a bit better about myself that I can actually afford to do that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Your relationship to money, it must have changed completely. Like. Yeah, Yeah, it's good going to the supermarket and not checking. Like, not stressed about, like what I'm going to eat tonight or I don't have to worry about anything. I don't have to make up a lie about why I can't do this. Like, I can just go to the supermarket and get, like, whatever I want to have to eat and be comfortable with that. what actually I really wanted to touch on was, like the therapy side that you spoke about. If you don't mind. Also reading this book once, it's called The Story of B by David Queen and my friend Dylan Lind, recommended it to me, but there was a quiet in the book that really stuck with me, and it said people gamble so they can feel like God is on their side. And I just want to know if that resonates with you, because something about addiction really always seems to come back to being like a spiritual problem. And like, we're chasing false gods is how I've heard Russell Brand describe it, which is something I really resonate with. And so, yeah, I just want to know, like, what your take on that is. Yeah, I think like, yeah, it's just like hanging onto hope by the sounds of. That's kind of like how that resonates with me, if anything. Like, it just sounds like like someone's hanging onto hope to that you have a big win or something like that. That's kind of probably what comes to my mind when I think of that. But even in recovery, like a lot of life is about a lot of recovery is about reaching a higher power and things like that. So, Oh okay. What do you mean? so when, in, Gamblers Anonymous meetings, they, they always talk about the higher power and finding God and things like that. And I'm not I am Catholic, they go to a Catholic school, but I don't really have that strong of place in things like that. But I think, like, a lot of people are chasing, like a kind of a god to, like, a higher power to kind of guide them through. But with that card, it sounds like someone's trying to get bailed out by God a little bit or or get a, some good fortune as well. Yeah, I think for me, like, any time I've, you know, put on the pokies or whatever it does, there is almost this closeness to the universe, I suppose, where I'm like, oh, come on, universe, like, Yeah, yeah. So trying to be law of attraction to my thoughts. Like if I had the right attitude, like I will attract like the right outcome. Like if I'm in a good mood, I'll get like a better outcome. But I think for me why this resonates because like I've had like struggled with like eating disorder is pretty bad in my life. But that's actually considered an addiction. And for me, I, I get it, even though I don't think it's nowhere near as damaging as, like, addictions like yours have been. But I get it because it's like, for me, it was a cycle that I set up in my mind where I was like, this impossible goal, where it's like, once I reach this, then it's done. And it sounds like what you're talking about, like once you get that big enough sum, then it's over. Yeah, And so my whole life it was like, that was the false goal. That was the law that I was like, once I get to that lot, Yeah. know, and even in saying that that was supposed that where I was was dark compared to that. Sorry. It was always this comparing in this. Like, if I get there, you know, yeah. And I was chasing that law. And so that really resonates with me when I hear people talk about it as like chasing false gods because I guess it's almost that grass is green kind of thing, you're trying to get somewhere else. And in that in itself, it's like, what am I running away from? You know, like, what am I escaping? Like, did you feel like it was a bit of escapism view about like, always. Yeah, always. It was like having a cheat day at work. I have a bit, happy stress. Have a. I have a fight with your parents or your friends or your girlfriend, whatever it is at the time, whoever it is got a bit guy like, that's that's what it is. Yeah. 100%. The more you kind of touched on that quote and what you thought about, you know, always chasing something. Always chasing something. That's, that's literally I think that's addiction, isn't it? Like in general, like, I think gambling addiction is probably spoken about as much as probably alcoholism or, drug addictions. They seem to be the two major ones that, probably the most well known. But, you know, for you and for me, like I mentalities have at some point I've had the same principles and constantly chasing something, you know, to kind of escape from who we actually are, and not really worry, knowing, sorry, not really knowing about what the damage is actually doing to us. Yeah. It's interesting because it's I can totally understand how gambling is so closely linked to like alcohol addiction say, or like drugs, because it's like that thrill. I can imagine that thrill of winning being something that you want to feel Whereas for like eating disorders, I think it's almost like when you're succeeding at them, you feel good enough. I think that's what it was for me. yeah. did you do you feel that any of the principles within your story, have kind of bent any similarities with yourself as well? Like, do you think addiction as a whole has kind of like, it has so many similar values. It's always kind of the same themes behind the story. Yeah. That chasing False gods seems to be Yeah, I resonate with and feel like, I can say repeated and also like, the idea of this cycle where it was like I would fall off the horse, like I would be doing really good, like starving myself and then don't fall off the horse and eat, which of course that's normal. But then it would be like, well, I would just try again. And I was stuck in a cycle and it was like, I've had to leave that entire cycle away. Like, it's not like I've learned how to conquer within that circle. It was like I had to step out of it and look at it and be like, that's not real. Like that's, you know, and it's hard to like it's almost like, having an extra dimension of, like, your way of thought. Yeah, what you're being like. You have to step away from your confinement of your mind and have, like, you know, Yeah. Yeah. such a hard thing to do, you know, especially that psychedelics. Yeah. It they can. Feel like you're at a transfer. So sometimes for sure. Like you feel like. Yeah, yeah. You're living like these crazy fast paced life when you, when you're in the thick of it, you're just not thinking. Your brain is just turned into mode sometimes. Like I used to find that. Like I'd go to bed and just, like, couldn't sleep because one of them like, talking, that sorry one. I'm probably chasing debts or getting chased for something. But the second part of it was like, I haven't been able to relax. I haven't let myself relax for for a whole day. Like I'm just at my phone. I'm like, I'm writing anything. I'm writing form guides, I'm writing, I'm getting tips off some shit website, some guy on Twitter that typed one, y'know, once. And now I think he's going to fucking take me over to the promised land, like I'm doing everything. But then you go to bed and like you just cause, like, you just can't even think. And like I used to feel like I was in a trance sometimes. Like worlds in, like I wasn't even like I was. I was like watching myself on. I was like like, like watching myself leave a life. And I was living in different on that day, I, I actually felt sometimes as wild to think about. But yeah, like, you can never let yourself relax. Like. And how do you feel like so that the like analogy of the cycle like does that resonate with Yeah. Oh yeah. do you feel like you stepped out of it. Like as for me, I feel like it was finding a why, something to do with why and analysing it or something helped me. So I'm just wondering what it was for you. Yeah. For me it was, it was. Yeah. It was probably just the factors of loss was probably why my, why. But then why I wanted to change was. Yeah, just like just that look in the mirror of that pathetic 27 year old male who is just an absolute shell of himself, like, that's that's not that's not me. Like the guy that wants to drive his car into a pole, you know, like, and then and then just end it like, that's that's that's not who I wanted to be. And that was more like a few turning points, a few dead end roads where this is just this is now never like that's that's probably more why it's probably a lot simpler. It sounds easy and like. Yeah, it probably sounds easy for people like listening, but like to get to that point. Like I was probably pretty close to being mentally insane. Like, yeah, I got my like, my gas to go do, like a, test with, like, a psychiatrist and to test if I was, like, a sociopath or I, you know, because the way I was coming up with lies or continuing to just not not gamble and things like that. Sorry. Yeah. Like literally feel like insane at some point. Sorry. Yeah. Like, to get to that point. It's very uncomfortable about my whys, like using just all of those feelings I had is just fuel to. That was going to be my next question. Like, how did you find the self-belief to get out of there? Because when you're at that place, you're at rock bottom. Yeah, And it's like, how the fuck do I get out of here? Like, how did you find that belief in yourself? I think it was just more like. I really threw myself into running, to be honest. And that was something that, like, I just used to run until I spewed like like like I was just. Yeah, I just I was so angry. Like, I had so much anger in my body that all is like, I on to just I need to just go and just get this out. And I started running when I first moved back home. And like, I'm still running to this day, like, I'm sort of obsessed with it. But always running so hard that, like, I was spewing at some points, just I was working myself into the ground, but I just threw myself into that. Like, that was like a coping mechanism for me at some point. And yeah, it's it sounds weird, but like, that's that's kind of like I got so much self-belief on how far I could push my body running until all spewed, and it was just like, it's probably a bit psychotic that, I was running probably like anywhere between 8 to 10 KS, but I was running way too quick to what my capabilities were at the time. And was just like making myself sick. And I was pushing, you know, I ended up pushing myself so hard that I remember just thinking to myself like, oh, I'm like, if I can do this to my body, imagine what I can do in self iron head like. But I'd do all my thinking out there as well. So when when I found like my blood was boiling and my heart right was at 170, that's when I could think the clearest. Yeah, actually, I Yeah. about, running. It puts you in an altered state of consciousness. It's like Yeah. type of meditation. Like, I always want to get ideas and downloads while I'm running. Yeah. It's that you were, like, really angry. Yeah. Is that because I know anger is the second stage grief? Do you think it's something tied to that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah absolutely. 100%. Like I was angry about my whole situation like where I was at in life while I was there. Like everything was just, I was angry and I was just. Yeah, I'm never like, I'm not a violent person at all. Probably like the feathers thing from that, but I was just, like, angry at myself, like pissed off. And yeah, I just that was just the only way I could get it out. The only way I knew how. But for me, like you said, it was like a form of meditation. That's like exactly what it is for me. Like, that's how I tried it out, and that's how I still tried it to this day. Like, that's. Yeah. Like, I'm probably have something like, I can't sit still. I'm always fidgeting in that, like meditation. I've made quite hard to sit still and really switch off, training and go, go for a lot, jog or push yourself aside as you can, whatever way I wanted to do at the time. Like that's that's probably my way of really being able to relax, but, and really meditate. And one more on my brain down and think as clear as possible. Yeah. Okay. And it seems like you like we spoke about escapism before and obviously like chasing these trails. You know, there must have been some things inside you that you maybe didn't like facing or things. And so going from that to meditating and purposely like sitting with your your mind, what was that transition like? Shit. Oh, shit. Like holy hot like. Yeah, I remember like like one of the first times I did it, I had like these noise cancelling headphones apart from my dad and was just listening to rainforest music and after two minutes, just throwing them down. What the hell is this? This is nonsense. And I was just like, this is me. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not this type of person. But I started, like, doing more things, incorporated it, like doing, like Pilates and and things like that, that, that always have that element of the start and finish of class where you shut your eyes, whether it's in like or a form, a class. And I found that I was like, oh, I actually kind of like this. I feel like I was just settling myself down a bit. And yeah, it took me like, I probably took me like two, three months to actually be able to do it for longer than five minutes. But it was just a little, little drip faded into my life. And I was I started really small. I started with a minute, I started with two minutes. But like now I could only do I can only do ten minutes now, like. And I also I just fall asleep as well. Like I've done. Like, floats before and just, I just fall asleep straight away. But like that type of stuff now, like I love I appreciate that so much about being able to wind down and switch off. But the the part of it was just like ridiculous how bad I was at it. Like, I was like something seriously wrong with me. I can't sit still like, but I think I had that much. I had so much going through my head that, like, I didn't want to see it with myself all. And I didn't want to have to think those thoughts. So I was kind of probably just probably just trying to shove it down the back of my mind a bit and not actually deal with it. So that's probably probably why I struggled so much at the start. You know, I resonate with that. Like I definitely had parts of my mind I wasn't allowed to touch like, oh, look at. yeah. itself is crazy because it's like you're, you're, you're a slave to your own mind, like you're trapped inside, like you're not free, like in your own mind. If there's parts that you can't even look at. And I think it's very difficult the first time you look inside and go, oh, fuck! Like he's all the shit that I've been avoiding, Yeah. know, the shadow work and all that. But it's like good bunch of, like, my philosophy around that is like, the more self-love became really important because I was like, the more I love what I see, like, the easier it'll be to come back. So whatever I say, I forgive. It's all good. Like. And then, you know, that becomes my friend, Yeah, yeah. So what is like self-love? Me to you? Self-love is just. I feel like I'm really good at it now. When I'm a child will definitely, not say that when I'm hung over because I have some negative thoughts at home all the time with negative. I just say some negative things about myself. But yeah, it's not. Good. Yeah, but it's like for. Me, like. Self-love is just like, it's just a it's just appreciating like every day for me, like, so yeah. Self-love. It's a, it's a tough one to really put in. I feel like I just it's just I feel like it shows. It just shows you. Sorry. I can say it off. Other people like how I'm. I am perceived to them now. And that probably makes me feel the best about myself. Is saying, or hearing things about, how well Nick's doing. I don't I'm not probably one that will go to myself and, and have so much of that self-love and like, I've always really struggled with that. But, mine's probably just hearing feedback of other people about how much I've grown. And probably just repeating that back to myself as well. It seems like a lot of the part of your journey has been, like seeing yourself through the reflections of others, which is interesting. So I feel like love is a mirror. I want to ask you about the 12 step program. Is that the same that's used in, like, alcoholism and. Yeah. Yeah. I believe that's based on the psychology of Carl Jung. What is what does that look like? The 12 steps? I couldn't tell you off the straight off the back of my head. A lot of it is just like the themes of it are, like embracing shame, and making amends with your past. And that was mainly what the steps, like. To be honest, right now, I haven't been to a meeting for, for probably about six months. But I haven't been able to probably read off that straight off the back of like, right now what those 12 steps are, but it's mainly just dealing with your shame, owning it as an identity and forgiving for your past sins. So whether it's, you know, someone that you've heard in the past, like making out with them, but it's also really authentic, like don't don't dishonest illness, don't disown this disease, don't eat like whatever however you want to describe it. One of the like if it's addiction, disease, illness, some people like to call either of those three. I like to call it addiction. I feel like it sounds the most savage, but it's also like being an addict of something like it's like something in you to get to, to be that person. But it also takes a very, very strong person to get over an addiction. When I feel like those other words disease and the illness, it doesn't resonate with me as strong as that. And I like to, I like to where this is, you know, this is me. And, I'm so proud of overcoming an addiction that I like to where it is like a bit of a badge of honour. And I think the, the 12 steps kind of to go back onto that same is like their theme. Sorry. I mainly about, you know, really, really identify like identifying as this person, not neglecting your past, but knowing how to control it as well to help, help you in the future. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Like you say, like owning it and wearing like a badge of honour. People like, seven. Yeah, yeah. Yes. I'm. He's so funny. Yeah, but, like, I feel like Kim is doing a similar thing, like just normalising it and, you know, like, I look at that and I'm impressed. Not like I don't judge it. And I think a lot of people have that mentality. But I want to ask, like, if there's someone listening who, you know, we'll have two main questions for that. Looking back, where was the point where you like in hindsight, this is where it crossed over and became a problem. Just so someone listening, if they can go, oh fuck, I don't think I have a problem, but this is this actually had this case on Yeah. what? What would you say? I would say like it's the simplest way possible. Actually, I've actually thought about this myself many times, but it's actually just when you bet size increases, like if you if you are betting 5 to $10 and your match bet is maybe 20 bucks, you know, I'm not saying you don't have an addiction, but you're probably in control unless you're having 150 bets a day of $20, then you've probably got an addiction. But if you're just having a couple of casual bets, 20 to 15 to, you know, under that mark, you know, you might have an addiction, but you're in control of the amount you spending. It's when it's for me, it was when I was betting like 200 to $500 to maybe even a thousand if I had it. Like I was having like big, big bets. And that's when I found those, like what the how like when did that happen? Like. And I think that yeah, just stems from maybe like getting a bit older, having a bit more income. You know, every week, probably earning more money. That's, that's probably why my bet increased. But that's when I knew it was the turning point where I was like, shit, this is like a bit out of control. Now I'm betting more than those ten little bits that I was having last year. I don't know all the switches on that. You probably just get a bit more comfortable with, you know, parting ways with that money. But also as time progresses, you've lost more money, so you're having bigger bets to then try and make up for those losses as well. I think that definitely plays into your mindset. Okay. And like what would you say if someone's listening going like oh shit. Like or maybe they know that I have a problem but they like just don't feel like they're in control. Let her know, what do you like? What would you say? Well, what advice would you give them for like first steps of like, try to get on top of it? there's an AF that was in that I still use and I pay five bucks a month. I think it's called Gambit. And that blocks out all ads. And, I'm not getting paid for sponsorship, by the way, but I actually don't even know. I think they're a UK company, but they, like, one of the only companies in Australia. I'm sorry in the world. Sorry that, is an affiliate Boxall the, website. So I can't access anything from like, any crypto news to ASX stock market to sports and horse racing, whatever it may be. I can't access any of that. It was just block on my phone, so I can't. It doesn't allow me to download the app, but if I search on Google I want download as well. But also being on Instagram, I'm not getting an notification from Ladbrokes about their, Barney's bets back if you. Do email me everything. Yeah, well, yeah, funny you say that. I actually won, one of the first of many times of trying to give up gambling. I gave up for two days, which is the longest I'd done by two days. Never giving it up for longer than a day. And, I remember that Saturday night. Sorry, not Saturday night. I think it was a Friday night. I had footy the next day and getting a $500 deposit match. Barney's with Ladbrokes. If I had ever deposited that weekend. And, you know, this is a man that was trying to I was trying to give it up and, yeah, I obviously took it because I had a gambling problem at the time. That there was a yeah. 100% like that's that they're smart. Like they know what they're doing. But yeah, to be sitting on the couch and I didn't even think asking that money was in the account within, within the minute lock off, because I gave up betting. I reckon I just they probably knew my algorithm on my pay cycle as well. Like when was the times where I was depositing them in, like they've always got some sorry. I'm sure they have analytics that would be able to kind of market that towards, you know, individualise that sorry, towards every customer. Yeah. And I hadn't obviously put in any that week when I'd got paid, you know, those two days and, you know, they're probably lucky we go all. Of. Send him some bait and say we hooks on and yeah, I did. Yeah. that's like a common phrase in the saying like comments or complimentary where like if you know, if someone is say at the pokies every day, they'll give them lots of free drinks and things like that, like Okay. stuff. And yeah, had there been other instances where these like companies have like given you like complimentary things like a $500 voucher or whatever, like, yeah. Like since you tried to quit or anything. Not since I tried to quit. Nah, I, I self excluded, myself with all of them. And then once the game gambling, app was downloaded, I had no access via my phone. But that's not going to say you can't just walk into a tab and and, you know, you still have access, but I think for me, like to kind of touch back on to your point about, oh, sorry to your question. Sorry about, you know, what should someone do download that I like. Because if you if you don't think if sorry and like download that off but also put your phone down for two days. Look look at it and say and save you even check the prices, the form where the prices are at any of that. If you can go two days without that, then call off and self exclude and download that game better. But if you can't last those two days, you have to look itself in the mirror and say, I have a gambling addiction because two days is not that long. You know, I've done 750 and I didn't think I could do two days. So if I can do it, any, anyone can do it. I'm nothing special in terms of, you know, I don't have any superpowers. This is just this is just me here. And I got I very walk into a strongly believe that anyone in the world can do it. And would you encourage them to, like, go to a meeting or something like that, like. Yeah, I would suggest going to speak to a counsellor first or, like a psychologist or mental health specialist for me, like, yeah, mate, meetings are great. And the community feels awesome but is really overwhelming. As, if especially if it's someone, you know, maybe depending on your age, you know, if you're lucky, you know, probably in my age, demographic, like, meetings were quite daunting. Like always, I was scared, like, I was going to be like a one on one cancelling sesh. I was like, this is I can be more, like, more comfortable here. And, you probably can let out a bit more of your emotions. But, not to say that there's nothing wrong with going to a meetings, because that's probably just what works for me. Like meetings the community feels were awesome. I probably don't go as much as, you know, I probably would like to, but for me, like cancelling one on one really works for me. But that's not to say that it's kind of like it's not a one size fits all. Like anyone could kind of, you know, anything can work for anyone. Like, none of it might work for anyone. You might just have be really good at talking to your friends or family or your partner, whatever it is, just do what works for you. But yeah, like therapy seems kind of obvious. Or like getting to the heart of the problem. Yeah, I have that actually interesting question to ask. Like that, boy. Like, I'm guessing that when you were gambling with in 2000, you know, hopefully everybody that was like, you know, let's do this in one category. Like where right now this. Like. Talk the angel in the devil on your shoulder like that. Not all strictly devil I was full. Yeah. I was like, I didn't think anything else, like, I just. Yeah, I'll do anything to get money. Like I'll. Or I'll tell you anything. Like I'd lie to anyone on these planet. I'll just say like something like my, like, a common thing was just like my. Can I just borrow X amount of money because, I don't have access to my savings account, but I should come in in a couple of days, so I'll just transfer you when I get it. Get that? And did you pay the people back no. Oh, not straight away. Not when I said took ages or things. Friends, family, any anyone that I was comfortable enough to even do that with, to people that, Yeah, probably only knew not that well, selling items like anything I had, like, would just try and put that on marketplace and. Nah, I used to put things up on marketplace. Tell them I was going to post it and take the money first and never post it. So yeah, I was just like, yeah, I was a genius, don't worry. But that was like my my counsellor said to me, she's like, if you put this much effort into business or your own work, like you'd be really thriving. But if you're using your, your entrepreneur or your skill set into into that, like, you know, like you can really channel this into something really good. And I was like. Like, to be honest, I'd love to do like, something like this where I'm promoting gambling addiction for people like for young men or young females, whoever it may be. That's something I would love to do in my life. Like, I'd love to channel that into helping other people because, you know, as I said before, like some people aren't going to have any help this this listening to someone chat about their life, you know, might help someone. And that's all I really care about is just helping at least one person. But at the same time along the way, it's actually helping me continue to, to heal and recover as well. So yeah, I feel like I'm channelling it. Yeah, I channelled it into my own health and wellbeing at the moment, but I haven't actually. Yeah, I've probably probably used that skills outside of that so far, but still got time. focusing on your health is a massive like that's a good foundation for sure. And should always be a priority I think. But is there something like would you like to do coaching or mentoring or something like that? yeah, I think it's. Something you've really had my mind on. Was, like going back to the school that I went to and kind of, you know, maybe just doing a talk and showing some, some stats about gambling save it resonates with any of the boys there, because I think when I went to high school, we didn't have anyone tell us that that was not an issue. Like I think the teachers have to know that that's going on. A lot of the teachers there have probably been to the school themselves at some point. So they do know that it's going on. You know, I'd like to go back there one day and, and, and speak about my journey and how it's affected Bay. And I was just in those seats, because I know that there would be at least one person in that room that's either going to have a problem or they're probably already experiencing something at home or something. There's always someone that would would have some sort of resignation with it. And, this is the same principle as, you know, why I'm, you know, on the podcast today is I just want to help at least one kid that I can help save. You know, you might save a life, but you also might save them from going mentally insane as well. Like, that's how I've felt. And yeah, I would never, never wish that upon anyone. Yeah. And so if somebody is listening and they would want to reach out, like your socials would be good or. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Hit me up on, Instagram. Nick Agan seven. Yeah, that'd be sweet. I get some new followers. But yeah, if anyone needs and needs a chat or, you know, wants to know any more information about me or gambling, I can help point in the right direction. I'm not going to say I'm going to kill you, but what I can do is I can. I can tell you what I did if you want. If anyone wants any more in-depth conversations about, you know, anything, I'm an open book, and I don't I don't care about sharing my story. And I'm, you know, I'm here to share it with everyone else, to try and help everyone else along the way, but also trying to help people, you know, understand me as well. But yeah, if if that's not something that you're comfortable doing, call Gamblers Help. I'm not sure their exact number, but it's pretty easy to find on Google. That is a customer service and not going to save your life, but it's someone to talk to you if you don't have anyone at home or anyone close by to kind of discuss that with that, they'll point you in the right direction to, you know, your local community centres. Local council. They'll help you do all that. I've been there myself. But if you don't, if you don't want to do any of that, you just just tell. Tell the person next to you. Tell tell you best mate. Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your brother, whoever it is. Just just tell them like, hi, can you manage my money for a week? You know, because I'm just spending it all on on the porn. You know, our own it own self and earn it because, you know, if you don't own it yourself, it's going to eat you off. And, turning into someone that you don't want to be. What is that feeling like we need? What's the biggest amount of money for us? Like, one day. I reckon I had I reckon I'll probably it's probably not as much as you think like it's, it's probably not that much of like, you know, like losing you pay for an hourly pay or your monthly pay, you know, in one sitting. Like that's definitely been done multiple times. But it's, it's probably like, more like I've built like I've seen my, gambling account have, you know, like $40,000 in there at, like, yeah, 2:00 in the afternoon.

But then at 2: 1:06:23

00 in the morning when I've stopped gambling, I've just been sitting on my phone gaming for 12 hours straight, like was saying that are, like within the same time. Yeah. And what is that, low like. Yeah. It's probably it's you don't sleep like for me. That's like probably, probably having two hours of sleep like dreaming about, like a bad, like a bad beat that you had whether something got pipped or like someone didn't kick, whatever. Like whatever that scenario is. But yeah, like for me, like it was just sleep I had, I would have a feeling inside my head that like even thinking about now like makes me like quite upset. But yeah, like when I was, when I would have bad losses, I'd have a feeling inside my head and it would just be like thumping, like so loud and I could hear. And it was just like this, this thing in my head that was just thumping. I could not sleep at night. It's was just like that for me. That's that's kind of what anxiety is for me. Like five. I feel when I used to feel really anxious from gambling, I used to feel it like it was a feeling that I would have inside my own head. And you can't. You cannot fall asleep like it is just. Yeah, it's still very takes over your whole body and yeah, you can't relax. You just. Yeah. yeah. I know insomnia better than anyone. Yeah. Hell yeah. Exactly. like, I then like, do you feel like you said you felt you lost losing your mind, like, did that feeling contribute to it. Yeah. When I'm like, I'm sorry, grumpy if I don't have. I did not sleep, like, even now. So for me to, like, you know, roll into work or the next day, to what? Whatever I was doing was just done at such a poor level or poor state of mind because of the lack of sleep that I got. And sleep, for me, is still so important about how I can carry on every day and be, you know, a functional human being. Like, I need, I need, yeah, good sleep to have that role. And it's just the lasting effects last, you know, probably like the rest of the week. But then once you have that bed again, you're just in the zone and you just forget all about it. And what were the sports you like betting on the most? Definitely the AFL, definitely the NBA. And then I started to soccer was just frustrating because it was just soccer just pissing me off because it was. It's just like, I love soccer now more, but I never betted on it because it was in such light at night. And like, I, I wasn't willing to stay off at like three in the morning to watch a team I've got $50 on. Yeah, I'm like, but now I'll do that now and not have a bet on it, which is quite, you know, funny. But yeah, for me, like I was just NFL was a little bit which is American football. Like I was betting on that one. I didn't even know. Like what the rules. But yeah, definitely I have AFL is the most accessible by NBA is on every single day. And there's 32 teams and they play 82 games in a season like, it's on every single day. Like I was told to do that the whole day, where I could be betting on the NBA, checking the scores. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Do you still watch the NBA now? Yeah, yeah. So it's still a massive sports not Yeah. It consumes still a lot of my life. But yeah, to me, like, that's that's not something that I'm like, fussed about watching that I never get an urge. But racing is different. Gravy for me. Like, particularly greyhound racing like I was. Yeah, really, really into that. But like, I can't even, I couldn't even sit and watch a race. It just, it really just it, it just makes me feel like very off is the only way to kind of describe how I feel. Like I just like I was like, look at it on my oh, that's just not on. I don't want to look at that. Like it's not something that I'm even remotely interested in looking at anymore. But watching a race, watching people lose, you know, like, that's for sure. Sorry. Sorry for people that they might not know what their problem is or they might not have any help, around them to get them out of that and just kind of makes me feel a bit sorry if. They will What would be like your ideal world, like in terms of gambling? But to see like no gambling ads about like, no, no poker machines anywhere or. Yeah, I don't like. I don't mind pubs and and parties, you know, having like being a being a thing like having a or pub. I don't mind that because I understand there's an element of business and people need to make money and, you know, like communities, like I grew up in a community in LA, you know, where like that just bonded everyone together, having that club, but also having, you know, a venue with gaming and and to be like that, that's a generating money for these clubs. So I understand that that's a business side of things. May it's mainly just like I don't understand why we need to have, you know, like an ex AFL player doing his same game mode. He recommendations before Friday night footy. Like I don't really care like about that. Another understand why that needs to be promoted like I just think it's ridiculous. I also think it's just outrageous how that it's just piled on when there's a big major event on. They know everyone's watching the sport, they know everyone's watching this particular event or just cramming as many ads as possible. Like, I'd like to live in a world where, like like we don't have when I have people promoting heroin on the TV doing like what? Why not? Like, I know it's an illegal drug, but, you know, people will get because people can get addicted to sell like that. What's the difference between putting, you know, the Sportsbet ad up? For me, that's that's the same thing. I know it's probably a bit wall, but not going to promote. Heroin on the TV. Yeah. Something where some people could just do do it once and be like, oh, okay, that's it, and walk away, which is similar to gambling, which is the argument for why it should still be, you know, allowed to advertise and things like that. Yeah you know, that's true. Like, we, we it's well documented that it can be really detrimental to people. But it's still allowed to be promoted, especially to a lot of children, like children watch football, like we all know that. Yeah. and it's you're right. It's crazy just saying like, well, I even like Crypto.com now. It's Yeah. Like, it's just getting bigger and bigger it seems. And yeah, it sounds like it would be good to have like, better regulations and things like that maybe, or like just a bit of consciousness about it, like Yeah. and things as well. Like, because how many people who love sport, I'm sure there's so many who can't even watch the football anymore, Yeah. Yeah. sad would that be? Like, it's. Yeah, it's it's brutal. But like what does it take. Does it take for, you know, for instance like something that I follow the most is like the AFL, like, does it take someone Jack who's, who's running the AFL, does it take them to have a gambling problem to realise that what it's doing to everyone, like they're probably generating so much money from these companies to promote it and to have the ability to have their sport on their, you know, to be able to bet on their sport. There's, clearly someone like they're all in each other's pockets and making money off that. Yeah. Well, yeah. seems obvious. I mean, where the government doesn't care about us. Not again. Add it to the list of things, but yeah. Like, it's it's it's so true. Like. Yeah. Like even like alcohol and smoking. Like smoking doesn't get promoted. Like, I think smoking is better for you than having a gambling addiction. But that could be wrong. But, you know, I don't promote smoking. Smoking anymore. They don't promote illicit drugs that are promote like, you know, pharmaceutical drugs. Exactly. What? Why are they allowed to promote something that, you know, people are heavily addicted to? And also billions of dollars is going through every year? The fact that, it's obviously businesses, they're obviously making money, which means it's in their interest, not the public's interest Yeah. that in itself just says it Yeah, yeah. okay, well, I think you want to finish with reading something, Yeah. Or, so. So this is the. 26th of November, 2023. I just moved back into my parent's house. And I started journaling was something that my cancer law had always told me to do and was something that was really important to kind of keep yourself accountable and, and to kind of reflect on past thoughts and your past mental state and use that as a way to show you progression. And this is something that, you know, has just ticked over two years ago and something like, you know, makes my kind of stomach churning a bit like the feeling that I had at this time. Like a lot of writing back on this, look at how far I've come. But it also makes me, you know, kind of make you feel a bit sick about, like, how I felt at that particular time. So right now I'm in the grip of my gambling addiction law feels like it's in an endless spiral. The late nights are blending into early morning, and sleep is a distant memory. My mind is constantly racing with the thoughts of losses, desperate attempts to win back what I've lost, and that crushing guilt that follows after each gamble a lie awake, lie awake. Replaying every mistake. Feeling trapped by an urge I can't control. It's hard to cope daily with. Sorry. It's hard to cope with my daily responsibilities. Everything is just feeling way too overwhelming. Even the simple task of just going to work seems impossible. I'm constantly anxious and I have so much shame on feel so hopeless right now. I look at myself in the mirror and each day just feels like I'm losing myself a little bit more. That's it. Yeah, that was just. Yeah. I remember crying writing night in my bed and just feeling like, oh, shit. Just feeling like, yeah, I wasn't sure if I was going to make it through to like, my next birthday, let alone head to work the next day. I just felt like I couldn't I couldn't do it anymore. Is. Yeah, that's that's probably that that day there I reckon marks the the hardest I in history of my life. And that was day one of my addiction is the first day. I don't never I never want to feel the way that I've felt that day. Do you feel I it's like somewhere I made a conscious decision, like, I'm not going to. Oregon. Writing that down just to be able to read back on it, I can. That was a sign for me. Like like, yeah. Why did I write that down? Like, and now I've still got it and it's so significant to me and make it hit. It hits me so, so far into my stomach. Like I always get something when I read that I feel something, and like, I feel like that was a sign for me, you know, whether it was fate or whether it was just my time to just give it off and have a crack. But, yeah, it's it's hard to kind of put into words, but I feel like that happen for a reason that day and like, why I felt that that such dark feeling and all those feelings within, within myself. I think that happen for a reason. Just to get my life back, just to be who I want to be, you know, be a loving, loving friend, family, boyfriend, an uncle to and so on. Sorry. Sorry, mom. But just to be all those people, sorry to be the person I want to be to all those people. And, you know, to be someone that everyone looks back up to and. Yeah, I just. Yeah, it's just life. Well, I believe that. Yeah. I think you should be really proud of yourself. And I feel really proud. But I'm really grateful that you've just been there and shared that and just being complete, because I know it's going to help so many people. And now you might know that I'm sure your paintings are going to make them so much change. And what that means is that you are the. So yeah. Yeah. Message clarity, sharing stories. That's so good. It's it's almost Christmas too. So I think I'm excited. So this is for my NFT collection. So this comes with the corresponding table, which is not going to actually become Bitcoin. So I think that one of the things I feel like you trade yourself in saying that I shouldn't, you know. Yeah. Anyone who is kind of controlled by these companies and addictions, and you set yourself free. So, Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. And I'll definitely be wearing this. So I really appreciate, having me on and letting me tell, tell my story. Sorry for rambling. Sorry for anyone out here. But, yeah, I feel like I've helped myself more than anyone, and sometimes that's all that matters. Yeah. It seems like to you, this feels like almost like a milestone in your journey upwards. So, Yeah. I can't wait to see how you go. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. How do you make these. Like do you just get them. Do you just print them every time. And then I make it. Oh she actually just. Spray that on. Really. Oh that's actually really cool.