Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Ink and Resilience: Aprilraine Landry's Journey from Zebra Skin to Harm None Tattoos
#032 What happens when a tattoo artist decides to close her long-standing shop and embark on a new venture with her best friend? Aprilraine Landry shares her emotional journey from the closure of Zebra Skin to the creation of Harm None Tattoos alongside her apprentice Chenine. Discover the inspiration behind their shop names, the serendipitous moment that led to it, and why April took a break from social media only to re-engage with her community in a more meaningful way.
From drawing portraits as a child to navigating the skepticism of her parents and teachers, April’s passion for tattooing is a testament to resilience and dedication. Hear about her early years volunteering at a local tattoo shop, securing an apprenticeship, and balancing her work with raising her children. Her career path took her through various shops, including a significant stint in Halifax, before she finally opened her own studio. The support of her family played a key role in her success, and their influence is woven throughout her story.
Tattoo artistry isn’t just about ink on skin; it’s about community and culture. April talks about the importance of free speech within the industry, the current trends in tattooing, and the special connections she has formed with multiple generations of families. She also addresses cultural appropriation, the significance of empathy in dealing with grief, and the complexities of traditional apprenticeships. This episode highlights the transformative power of body art and the depth of human connections it fosters.
You can find Aprilraine at:
Instagram @little.injun.that.could
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
I think it was shortly after we did the first interview. I went private on everything.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And I was just like, like, when I left the shop, I had made a post that I was closing but I didn't tell anybody where I was going. So, like a lot of people were like, april quit tattooing.
Speaker 2:And I'm just like.
Speaker 1:I'll let people think what they want Like. And then recently I just went public on everything again okay, so I'm like if people are gonna hate on me, they're gonna hate on me either way.
Speaker 3:So I'm just like like there's a block button like if someone's got something negative to say I don't want to hear, just block the transformative marks podcast explores how indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Incaqamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Incaqamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I have helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:I'm April, rain, rain, landry and I am at harm none.
Speaker 3:Tattoos in kingston megamagi, awesome yeah, so, uh, I guess this is uh take two because I forgot to hit record on the audio for last time. But uh, yeah, so this is our second interview. It was like what. A year ago, yeah, I came through and we did an interview for an arts Nova Scotia project. I had.
Speaker 3:And I did some recording of you tattooing and stuff like that. But, yeah, just tell me what it was that transition was like, because when I visited with you, you were just closing your own shop and then coming over here, yeah, what was that like? You were just closing your own shop and then coming over here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was that like? So it was really emotional because I had that shop for like 10, 11 years. I was just starting out and built myself up and I had some other artists with me and my best friend, shanine, who I brought on as an apprentice. And then me and Shanine came over to this space here and for a little while we were like, well, should we keep the same name? And my shop was Zebra Skin and I love zebras. I collected zebra print stuff and the name of that shop actually came about because I was tattooing and I didn't have a name for my shop yet. And I was sitting there and I had one of my regulars in and the whole shop was like zebra print overflow that I had from my house and I said what should I name my shop? And he said, I don't know, zebra skin. And I said that's perfect, cause like you look at a zebra and you're like it looks tattooed. So anyway, I was like it's perfect, zebra skin. So I had all my signage and everything done up.
Speaker 1:So when we moved over here, I'm like, like we're moving to a new space, like we should have a whole new name and, uh, shanine was really into like paganism and when I had first met her I had tattooed harm none on her fingers and uh, and we played around with a few different names. And I was making supper one night and I called her up and I said Harm None. And she's like what? And I said Harm None. I said that's perfect. And she's like oh my God. And I was like I tattooed that on you, didn't I? And she's like, yeah, you did. I was like there we go, I tattooed that on, you didn't I?
Speaker 3:And she's like, yeah, you did. I was like there we go Nice. Yeah, that's kind of funny. Hey, like harm none what what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was cool.
Speaker 3:So you've been here a year now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah cool.
Speaker 3:So you know in that interview earlier I asked you you know what was the process or how did you get into tattooing? So you know, because this is a new interview, you know, maybe tell me that story of the journey, of how you got into tattooing.
Speaker 1:So when I was young I was like 11, 12-ish I was always drawing mostly people, portraits and stuff like that. And when I was 13, I don't know what it was just like a feeling, I guess. Like I didn't grow up around anybody with tattoos. My parents didn't have tattoos, like maybe I seen it on TV and I was like that's what I need to do, like. So my parents didn't have any tattoos and they said why would you want to do something Like? Why would you want to hurt people? And I'm like I don't know, like I just want to put art on people, like put it in their skin, like it's permanent.
Speaker 1:And I went through high school my art teacher was like why do you want to be a tattoo artist? He said you should get into graphic designing. And I'm like, nah, like he set me up for like a graphic design day at the NSCC and I said I'll go. And I went and he said how'd you like it? And I said it was all right, but I want to be a tattoo artist, yeah, so when I was probably, well, when I was 16 we took uh, I took a course at school. It was entrepreneurship and they said you have to do 80 hours of volunteer work and a job that you would like to do. So I grew up in Middleton and the closest tattoo shop at that time was in Kempville. So every day after school I would hop on the transit bus and I would go up to this tattoo shop and at first they were kind of annoyed by me, like why is she here? Like she won't leave, and I'd answer the phones and I'd sweep and I'd mop and I'd scrub tubes and all that not so fun stuff. But I loved it. I'm like this is like I'm in my element here. So I ended up volunteering there for two years, like even after my 80 hours was up and, uh, the guy doesn't tattoo anymore. Um, but when I turned 18 I moved to Ontario and I bought my tattoo kit online and I was like, yeah, I got this tattooing people out in my basement but anytime I had a question, I could call this guy up and be like what am I doing wrong? And he would help me out anytime.
Speaker 1:So when I moved back, I spent two years in Ontario and I moved back here Because I'm like my family's here. I can't be away from my family. So I moved back here and I went back to that tattoo shop and it was half the size of this one, it was tiny and it was just the one guy that worked there and I was like you need an apprenticeship. And he said, well, I don't have the space or the time. And he said I'm willing to help you out whenever I can. He said but a new tattoo shop just opened up down the street. He said so, go see them. So I went and seen them and they took me on as an apprentice and it was two months after I had my oldest child and I said this is what I want to do.
Speaker 1:I had a brand new baby and I'm working like part time. Anyway, I did a brand new baby and I'm working like part time. Anyway, I did a two year apprenticeship there and I ended up staying at that shop for four years and then I moved to the city. I worked in Halifax for eight months. I'm not a city girl at all. You go outside at nighttime and you're like where are the stars? Like all I hear is like ambulances, like I need to go back to the valley, into the woods, like. So I moved back to the valley and I worked at a tattoo shop in Middleton old school ink with Anthony Robichaux and I was there for a few years and he ended up moving to Halifax to work at the shop that I was working at before I moved down here.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, yeah so then I had the opportunity to open my own shop. Yeah yeah, I've just been tattooing since.
Speaker 3:What was it like opening your own shop? You know that's an interesting probably an interesting story of like how did that go, you know, yeah, so this was before regulations came out.
Speaker 1:So when he had left, I just stayed in the same shop. Um, there wasn't a lot of paperwork or whatever, cause there was no regulation, so it was just like getting your name okayed and everything like that. Um, at that point I had my two kids and they had both just started elementary school. Yeah, so I was working first thing in the morning, I dropped them off at school. I would work all day. I'd stop at three o'clock to go pick them up from school, I'd bring them back to the shop with me, and these kids hung out at the tattoo shop after school for years. So I'd be tattooing and we had a little like hangout room in the back. Yeah, so they'd spend most of their time out there and they're super artistic as well, so I'd be tattooing and they'd come out and give a drawing to my client. I drew this for you. Yeah, so it was. I don't know, it was like a little family thing. Yeah, yeah yeah, cool.
Speaker 3:Um, what was that decision to uh close your shop?
Speaker 1:so, uh, the building that I was in for 10 years, um, it's it sold during covid, okay, so the new owners um came in and they wanted to double our rent and I said is this negotiable? And they said no. And I said, well, here's my one month notice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they said you can't give us a one month notice. And I was like, well, I've been in this building for 10 years. I've never once signed a lease. Yeah, I said here's my one month notice. Yeah, my other artists were kind of pissed off at me, but yeah, I was like you gotta do what you gotta do, right. And then we found this place and the rent's half the price what we were paying at the other shop wow, and the location's better and the lighting's better. Yeah, sometimes things got to fall apart for you build back up again.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, for sure, yeah, and of course you know uh it, you know it was your name yeah, place right yeah it was your money that you had to go through, and yeah, so like I kind of looked at it like it was another one of my kids right, like it kind of grew along with us. Yeah, yeah, like my home away from home.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I was like, okay, it's done.
Speaker 3:Time to move on. Time to move on. Yeah, let it fly yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, One of the things that I really wanted to kind of explore with you was, you know, last time we talked you were doing quite a bit of like TikTok stuff. Is that still?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do yeah.
Speaker 3:And you had quite a big following. Is that true? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm not on there as much anymore. There was just this new thing that came out with like music, I guess, on TikTok. So all of the old videos that have music attached to them, like all of them I don't know exactly what it is like the company that they were with they're taking off all of the music. So I think I'm gonna. When I first started the TikTok, it was during COVID, so we were locked down and the kids were like oh, oh, check out this app. And I was like this is really fun. So I made a TikTok recently and I was like I really miss like the COVID vibe of TikTok from like a couple years ago. But everything changes. So I think I'm going to start putting more artwork and stuff like that on there Because it was, I don't know, during COVID.
Speaker 1:It was all just like a bunch of little skits and stuff like that on there, because it was, I don't know, during covid, it was all just like a bunch of little skits and stuff. But it's fun to go back. Well, they have like the sounds on there where, like, other people are saying things and yeah, I would just like take a video of myself like like mouthing over what they were saying and, yeah, don't know, people were loving it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the reason I bring that up is because, um, in the short little mini documentary I'd put out, uh, part of uh, what you shared was like that, uh, what would you say? That the hesitancy of like putting yourself out there and that like a feeling of like being exposed? Yeah, Like that thought of like excuse me, that thought of like, um, you know, uh, do I really want to do this?
Speaker 2:Do I really want to be out there? Um, so you know I can totally relate to that.
Speaker 3:You know, especially with doing the podcast and you know some of the most recent episodes. You know people, especially from the tattoo industry, you know are kind of like pushing against some of the things that are being shared from an Indigenous perspective. But you know, and I think about it because one of the apprentices at the shop I'm at you know he was like you know I totally, you know that hit, you know he's like that idea of like. Sometimes I really want to what I think was paraphrasing here.
Speaker 3:You were like uh sometimes I really want to be, out there, and then other times I feel like I want to run off into the woods or whatever. So, yeah, I just wanted to bring that up and explore that with you a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I still feel that way. I think it was shortly after we did the first interview. I went private on everything.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And I was just like, like, when I left the shop, I had made a post that I was closing but I didn't tell anybody where I was going. So, like a lot of people were like, april quit tattooing.
Speaker 3:And I'm just like.
Speaker 1:I'll let people think what they want, like. And then recently I just went public on everything again. So I'm like if people are going to hate on me, they're going to hate on me either way. So I'm just like, like there's a block button.
Speaker 3:Like if someone's got something negative to say don't want to hear, just block yeah, the way I recently said it in uh one of my uh Instagram posts was like I think it was one of the from uh the what would you say like the trailer or the first episode where I kind of introduced myself? You know I talked about, know this podcast is really, you know, for Indigenous people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And, you know, if people don't, if it doesn't hit with them, that's fine. Yeah, right, and I also said, you know, it's like my Instagram page is kind of like my little apartment that Meta, you know, is the landlord of, yeah, and so when you think about that, it's like, hey, when you're rolling up to someone's house, you wipe your feet and you come in and you, you know, interact with them in a way that's respectful, yeah, and so that's what I really expect of people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like I don't go into someone's house and start throwing shit around, right, yeah? And so when you way is like maybe that's going to help people to think about that differently. Yeah, you know, my own experience, even in the last couple days, has been that no, people don't. And it's also interesting too. It's like this weird um, you know, because they're like an hour to like an hour and a half, sometimes two hours, the podcast interviews and I share like a 30 second clip and then people, I feel like they know exactly what's happening and they have to comment on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of interesting right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I just wanted to explore that a little bit with you of like, um, it'll be interesting to see if you go private again after this.
Speaker 1:I'll stay public.
Speaker 3:I can take it, yeah it's interesting, right, because sometimes it's just like, uh, yeah, people uh feel the need to share and whatever. Yeah, I'm like you know, when I think about that, it's like I'm okay with people sharing their opinions about ideas yeah but not about people yeah right, like there's a one thing where you're like well, here's this issue, let's talk about it. Fine, let's talk about it, but don't attack people yeah, that's the thing, yeah you know, what I think about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, unless you've sat down and had a conversation with that person, you can't, you can't judge them like big time. Like I don't know, I have some clients that come in and I'll look them up on Facebook or whatever and I'm like, oh, they're posting some real like nasty stuff about people and then I'll come in and I'll have a conversation with them and sometimes some of that stuff gets brought up and sometimes you can change their mind. Yeah, like I had someone come in like our tattoo shop's name is harm none. Like I had someone come in one day and we had a trans student in the shop. And this woman comes in. She said my daughter had to pull her kids out of school because they're teaching them to be gay and they're teaching them to be trans. And I said they're not teaching them those. Like they're teaching them that it's okay to be these things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time.
Speaker 1:I'm like, anyway, I had a big discussion with her that took about 15 minutes and she was just like yeah, you know, you're right. Like who am I to tell people what they can and can't be?
Speaker 3:Yeah, big time. Yeah, sometimes that's also important. Uh, take those opportunities to have those conversations, because that's the reality. That's what I talk about uh always is.
Speaker 3:You know, as indigenous people, we sit in a circle because every voice is important, yeah, even the most annoying voices it's true, yeah, because we have to understand what they believe and what they think for us to fully find a balance in our own perspective. Yeah, and I always say you know it's. We don't have to understand what they believe and what they think for us to fully find a balance in our own perspective, yeah, and I always say, you know, we don't have to agree with those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But we should listen and understand. Yeah, take the opportunity to have that conversation.
Speaker 1:And I feel like every conversation is a learning experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it can go either way. Yeah, big time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but that doesn't mean everybody send me a message because I have limited time but, yeah yeah yeah, it's, uh, just an interesting topic to begin to explore because, you know, um, even in the tattoo industry you know when I think about you know, I've listened to podcasts for people from who were an ink master, and some of those folks are, like you know, get bombarded by stuff yeah right, and so when you put it in the indigenous perspective, you know it's one thing that I didn't uh, what would you say?
Speaker 3:I didn't expect, right, like. But then I'm like, oh, why didn't I fucking expect that? You know, because you have people who have their own particular way in the tattoo industry, and then also you have racist people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Why didn't I think of that? You know, CBC has to turn off comments on their indigenous content.
Speaker 1:So why?
Speaker 3:wouldn't that be true?
Speaker 1:I kind of love it when the racist people call themselves out, though Just like stay away from that person Exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think that's one of the things about having free speech is people can say whatever they want, we don't have to accept it. But then we also know who's who. You know it's like yeah, yeah, I don't want to fuck with that person yeah, we know how they think and they feel and they're entitled to that um but uh, you know, we just don't have to listen, right?
Speaker 3:but yeah, just kind of circling back to uh tattooing, you know, because uh, I think, uh, I want to know a little bit more about the work that you do and give you an opportunity to share some of the stuff that you do and share some of that journey.
Speaker 1:So I do a lot of like nature themed stuff. I find, for like the past year ish, it's a lot of birth flowers which are meaningful to the people that are getting them. Yeah, I like to do a lot of black and gray. Yeah, I really love to do portraits and realism, but I find not a lot of people here that's something that they're interested in. Yeah, but then again, like the art that people want, like they go through different fads, I guess. Yeah, where everyone's like, oh, I want a line work, tattoo, yeah, stuff like that.
Speaker 3:But so you do pretty much anything, I do pretty much anything yeah yeah, I mean, I'm all all sold out.
Speaker 1:Of pocket watches, though, all sold out, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think everybody is. But uh, what would you say the trend is now? Because the reality is I do pretty much exclusively stuff from my own community. So intercomic block work is a thing that I developed from my ancestral visual language. So, I don't know what the trends are these days. What is kind of the trend right now?
Speaker 1:For me. People are coming to me for birth flowers. I'm doing a lot of constellations which is cool. I really like astrology and stuff like that. Yeah, I'd say it's mostly like birth flowers. I've done a few really cool skull pieces, like I did a highland cow. That was half the highland cow and then half the highland cow skull with some flowers around it. That one was really fun. I'd like to do some more stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Um, I do a lot of animals, pet portraits, yeah cool, yeah, no, it's interesting too, uh, because when I first started, uh, within the first, say, five years, I can remember it was like writing was like the biggest yeah kind of like thing that everybody wanted. That was the trend and it was always like oh well, the biggest, yeah. Kind of like thing that everybody wanted.
Speaker 3:That was the friend and it was always like oh well, where do you want this? Everybody wanted their first tattoo on their ribs. Yeah, I was like yeah, you want, uh, roman numerals on your rib. Awesome, you know when you're first starting. I mean, I don't. I fucked up on Roman numerals a couple times.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but yeah, actually, I'll tell the story. It's interesting, you know, because it's always good to share some of those failures.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So people who are coming up and listening can learn from them. Yeah, I designed a half sleeve with a pocket watch with Roman numerals on the face of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I designed it for. I can't remember which arm it was, but let's just say it was the right arm I designed it for, but it was actually for the left arm, and so I just flipped it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I didn't flip the watch back over and so I was tattooing it. I didn't clue in and so, and so you know, of course you're usually going one, two, three, four, five, but I was going, you know, uh, I think I went this way. So one, two, three, four yeah, and I got to fucking like 11. I was like. My brain was like there's something wrong yeah, I was like fuck, I fucked up on the fucking numerals. What the fuck?
Speaker 1:because, of course, if it was in like regular numerals, yeah, you would know, yeah, you would have caught it earlier.
Speaker 3:You always you know who really? You know, I don't think I've really ever. Uh, most people actually probably can't even read roman numerals nowadays, but yeah. So I fucked up on that and I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm just gonna finish this off. So I finished off the piece and then, as she was looking in the mirror, I was like because there was no changing it you're already there, but I mean, if she's looking in the mirror, it's probably the right side but I said to her because I always think, you know, uh, when you notice that you fucked up, you know it's important to yeah because I think it.
Speaker 3:You know, when you notice that you fucked up, you know it's important to. Yeah, Because I think it's. You know, dealing with it at the point that it happens, yeah, it's easier than dealing with it if you know they're embarrassed about it yeah, right, so if they go, out into the world, and then somebody goes, oh, that's wrong, and they're like, what the fuck?
Speaker 3:That guy fucked up. Yeah, so fucked up, yeah. So she was looking in the mirror and I'm like, just so you know, uh, this is backwards, uh. And I told her why. Because I designed it for the wrong arm and then I flipped it and so I forgot to flip the numerals over, and she was like it's about the irrelevance of time, so we're all good. I was like, yes, score, but yeah, it's interesting. Um, so yeah, make sure when you're doing those uh numerals yes on clocks to uh, flip it.
Speaker 3:You're flipping it, and then also in the ipad. Now, when you're using um, like the s8 printer, you know, make sure you flip that, as well, yeah because it comes out backwards.
Speaker 1:So yeah, in the, in the roman numeral fad I had I was doing like three or four a week it seemed like, yeah, and I had a girl and she was getting a memorial tattoo for her dad that had just passed I think it was 2021, yeah, and she she sketched out the design herself and with the roman numerals and everything on it, and I noticed the Roman numeral had an M on it and I was like, oh, I did one the other day with an M on it, yeah, and I something told me to check the number, check the date.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I checked the date and she had the date as 2022. And I was like it's not 2022 yet and I had tattooed her dad previously. Yeah, and he had passed away a few months before that. So I messaged her and I said is this supposed to be 2022? Yeah, because I don't know what their significance could be. Yeah, I give them what they want. Yeah, exactly. And she was like, oh my God, I'm so glad you caught that. It was going to be the wrong date that she had given me and if I hadn't done a Roman numeral that was really close the day before, I never would have caught it either.
Speaker 3:Well, that's the thing too, is probably a lot of people wouldn't catch it anyways no yeah, I've done that too.
Speaker 3:Where, um, I did, somebody brought in the coordinates of their grandparents births or death, you know where they're uh, the cemetery, the side of the cemetery where they were buried um, they brought in the coordinates to that and so I was like, okay, cool, so I just did it up and then like the next day they're like oh, this is wrong, I gave you the wrong coordinates and the coordinates were like out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean or the Pacific Ocean. I was like, oh shit, I'm like, well, come on in, I think it was an easy enough fix, yeah it's like turning a one into a four.
Speaker 3:So that's an easy fix, but still I was like fuck so yeah, those things happen um but yeah, just some interesting, you know.
Speaker 1:I'd probably be like. You're probably meant to go visit that spa you got a tattoo on your yeah everything happens for a reason.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was funny too. I uh, I did uh a no regrets yeah and I, as I was doing, I was like so you know, if I uh fuck up on this, you know you gotta live by the uh, you know by the motto that you're putting on yourself. He's like what I'm like. Well, it says no regrets. So even if I fuck up, you can't regret the fact that it was fucked up.
Speaker 3:He was like uh, should have thought about it a little bit more thankfully it came out the way it was supposed to. But yeah, just interesting to tease people a little bit. Yeah, you know, when you think about the, you know being an artist here in McMoggy. You know what? When you think about the, you know being a an artist here in mcmoggy. You know what has been your experience of being an artist?
Speaker 1:here. Um, I don't know, I'm just like in my own little world most of the time, yeah, and then people come to me and they're like I want you to tattoo me. And I'm like, okay, cool, yeah, what to tattoo?
Speaker 2:me and I'm like okay, cool yeah.
Speaker 1:What do you want? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Big time. Yeah, it was, I think, the one thing that I really the story. I enjoyed from our last conversation. You shared that you know because you've been in a place for as long as you have been. You know you've had generations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have been. You know you've had generations, yeah, of people coming to get that. Yeah, and that's great.
Speaker 3:Like I, I formed like families inside my shop and I'm like it's awesome yeah, it's pretty cool to have that hey, um people coming and going hey you tattooed my mom, are you?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah look, there's some people I've tattooed, like all of their siblings and their mom and their dad, like I'm going to bring my kids to you.
Speaker 3:I'm like sweet yeah cool when you think about you know any of the you know. You said you've listened to a few of the podcasts or checked out some of it, you know. Is there anything that comes up that you think would be interesting to explore?
Speaker 1:from any of that I don't know. I just enjoy watching them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Meeting different people through your videos, yeah, cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's. You know, that's the one thing I really enjoy about being able to have these conversations. It's just being able to have a variety of conversations with a variety of different people. You know, you always take one little gem from each conversation, and so that's why I wanted to uh chat with you, uh about that impulse to like uh hide, I guess yeah because I think yeah it's uh it's such an interesting experience, I think, with social media yeah you know, it's like our brains get hijacked by these algorithms.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they get hijacked by, you know, when you think about it. We were conditioned to live in like tribes yeah right, you know 100 people you know, 150 max kind of thing, and so, and you know, 10 say 10, which is actually probably quite high, but you know, five percent of the people, uh, you know, don't like you and they talk shit about you, right?
Speaker 3:yeah, that's, you know, not that big of a deal yeah right, but when you take five percent, even one percent of the population, or the people who have access, say, to instagram or tiktok, or whatever, that's actually quite a few people yeah, in terms of like size, but in terms of the percentage it's actually not that big yeah, so our brains kind of get hijacked in terms of like oh shit, all these people hate me, but it's like it's really not that many people in terms of percentage.
Speaker 1:And then I always remind myself I'm like none of these people matter, Like they're not in my day-to-day life. Yeah, Like, all right, cool, Thanks for coming. Yeah, I got to work today thanks for coming.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I gotta work today. Yeah, the one, uh the one thing. I was uh listening to another podcast and they were saying that I can't remember which one it was, but somebody gets a bunch of hate comments, right, because of course you put yourself out there, people are going to come at you yeah um, just because we don't all agree, which which is fine, but they always put, especially for those, like nasty ones. They always put like get well soon. I was like, oh, that's classic.
Speaker 1:Yes, man, I pray for the people that don't like me all the time, yeah big time. Yeah, Like if you hold like hate or animosity in your heart, like it sucks to be somebody like that, Like that'll take a toll on your body. Yeah, in your heart, like it sucks to be somebody like that, like that'll take a toll on your body.
Speaker 3:So I'm like someone's got something hateful to say I'm like, I'll pray for you, yeah, yeah, I would say, you know, comes back to that, uh, you know that classic saying that I've heard uh lots of times.
Speaker 3:It's like hurt people, hurt people yeah, yeah and so that's why that, even though the get well soon is a bit of a zinger maybe, with a little bit of a jab in there, um, but yeah, it also brings forward. Something really important to acknowledge is that, you know, we're all on our own healing journeys or on our journeys of coming to a sense of wellness and wholeness. Um of us are further along. Some of us don't give a fuck, yeah, and some of us are still in that pit of pain and despair, yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's important to acknowledge all of those realities and, you know, enter each experience with that care and compassion and, you know, like the name of your shop. You know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's cool, the name of your shop, you know, yeah, so, um, when you think about that, um, I guess it's an interesting question. Why do you think that?
Speaker 1:you went dark after the last time, um, I don't know. I feel like I was going through something, so like I feel like I was grieving the loss of my shop. But I was also like in the planning stages of what are we going to do here and like what's it going to be like and are our clients going to follow us or are we going to get new clients? And all of those things happen. Like all of the people that, like the people I created a family with in the shop, they all follow me. April, where are you now? And I'm like I'm here. And then we had new clients come in. They're like I didn't know you guys were here. I'm like we just moved in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, nice to meet you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. I just love meeting new people all the time. I'm like any walks of life, like everybody's got a story and, like you said, everybody's got a journey that they're going through, and I'm like, if I can help in any way, like you want some art, that's what I do hey there, listeners, it's dion kazis, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of Indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing.
Speaker 3:If you've found value in our episodes, we've made you laugh or you've learned something new, consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I can understand that too is maybe not because you didn't know exactly what was going on, that you, yeah, didn't want to answer all those questions?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah yeah, um, yeah, that's interesting. Hey, it's like the reality of like that grieving process yeah, there's so many things that we grieve for. Yeah, um and yeah the. The closing of a business yeah, that, that is a death of a dream, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, it was. But honestly, looking back from a year ago, I'm like it was the best thing I could have done at that time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so how far?
Speaker 1:is it?
Speaker 3:from here to your old shop. It's not that far, is it?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's like a 10, 12-minute drive. Yeah, that's crazy, but I enjoy the drive to work. I'm like I get to like vibe and listen to a couple songs and take that time to like decompress. Yeah, at the last shop I live two blocks away Like I can walk to work in like seven minutes yeah big time.
Speaker 1:So it was just like home work, home work, and then like the kids would always stop at the shop on their way home from school, and so now they're like, can we come hang out at the shop with you? And I'm like yeah, I suppose, yeah, totally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting. I drive from, you know, the valley down to Halifax when I work, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm only there.
Speaker 3:You know a couple times a week, just because I have so many other projects that I'm working on. Yeah, but still I actually do enjoy. Even though it's like an hour and change of a drive there and an hour and change back, I still enjoy that time, like you say, to decompress.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to get prepared for the morning.
Speaker 3:You know, sometimes in the winter it's not always the funnest. Not because I don't mind driving, it's I, you know, I mind other people's yeah, yeah for sure, but yeah, I did enjoy that time. To you know, listen to podcasts a lot of times. To listen to nothing, yeah, to be in the quiet, yeah, but it's interesting to hear that people were like you got new clients even though you're only you know like 10 minutes away. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then sometimes I'll tell people, oh, I had to shop in Middleton for 10 years and they're like, really, and I'm like, yeah, but like I didn't do any advertising or anything like that, it was all word of mouth, yeah. And when any advertising or anything like that, it was all word of mouth. Yeah, um. And when I was in Middleton I was booked up three months in advance, yeah, like, it was a lot like. I was like I was a workaholic for like 10 years, yeah, and I was just like all I do is just like work and take care of my kids and that's it, yeah, um. So I think part of me going private when I just made a post shutting the shop down, gone, private, right, um, I think part of that was just like I needed some time to like just kind of figure out what I'm doing in my own life, um. So a lot of people didn't even like thought I'd quit tattooing, yeah, um, which I was fine with. And I was like I don't know, maybe there's still some people that think I'm not tattooing anymore, but I don't know, it was just like it was nice to just like stop.
Speaker 1:So I took, I took like a month off, um, like, as we were getting everything put together here, we painted and um health inspector had to do all that stuff too. So while we were getting all that stuff ready, I just kind of like stopped replying to my emails and I just took a month off. And uh, now I'm only booking a couple weeks in advance and I have so much more time, like I've been. I started painting again. Um, I've been making earrings, uh, doing some quill work, some bead work, yeah, uh, sewing, knitting, and I'm just like I don't know, I'm always doing something with my hands, but I'm like something. All is always artistic, so I feel like I can maybe incorporate some stuff. Yeah, I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out who I am. I guess, like I know I'm an artist. Yeah, but yeah, I gotta do more than just tattoo.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, kind of almost consumed, you right yeah like I mean. The reality is is that I say that I have other projects, but all of those other projects are about tattooing yeah, yeah so, yes, I'm, you know uh, curating an exhibition at the Museum of Vancouver cool um, but it's about tattooing yes, right, yeah, and then uh you know working on a book, you know, but it's about tattooing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And then you know working on a book, you know, but it's about tattooing you know writing book chapters all about tattooing, so yeah, it almost like, even though I'm not at the shop tattooing all the time. You know, your life just becomes consumed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Must feel nice to have that a uh, a bit of freedom. Yeah, Because you know three months in advance, if you're always constantly three months, you don't get an opportunity to. You know, just drop everything and go, go out to the bush for a couple of weeks. Or like, hey, I want to travel, I want to go to Mexico, I want to go do whatever. It's hard to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It must feel nice.
Speaker 1:It does. So I had a whole bunch of porcupine quills over the winter and I kept saying I'm going to do something with those, I'm going to do something with those. And then, when I had a break, I made a whole bunch of earrings.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've seen those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I had a chance to do that Because I was so consumed with tattooing I didn't paint for a year and I was just like I should maybe get into that again.
Speaker 3:So as I arrived, you said you're going to start a new painting.
Speaker 1:You just got a new canvas.
Speaker 3:What was that going?
Speaker 1:to be. There was a picture of jim morrison and he's on stage and he has a sparkler in his mouth and he's lighting the sparkler with a lighter. And I did a charcoal drawing of it. It was only five by seven and it was my favorite drawing I did of him and I had posted it online and someone said I'll buy that off you and I said 100 bucks and then I kicked myself immediately like it was my favorite.
Speaker 1:So anyway, I have a canvas that's probably this tall from the ground and like this big, and yeah, my son's like just paint it again like you can yeah don't sell this one and I'm like, okay, sweet, yeah.
Speaker 3:I can uh, you know, I can sympathize with that. Uh, you know, having a couple of the paintings that I've sold yeah, it's like some of the ones that I've given away to friends and family and stuff. It's like, yeah, yeah, cool. But some of those ones you sell you're like, oh, is it worth that money? Yeah, it's cool to have your art out in the world yeah, it is, it's interesting too, right, because, uh, that's what we do every day at the shop is, uh, let our artwork out into the world yeah it just goes out into the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the difference, of course, is because it's on someone's body yeah, and I feel like when you're tattooing somebody else like that, even though you're tattooing it like it belongs to them, yeah, yeah, when I do a painting or create something else artistically, I always feel like it belongs to me because I'm painting it for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then when I sell it because I need some rent money, let that go for 50 bucks so this year I'm like I told my kids I said I'm gonna do a whole bunch of paintings this year and I said I'm not selling any of them. I said when I die, you guys can auction off all of my artwork and that's what you're left with.
Speaker 3:I'm like artists don't make enough money when they're alive anyway like, yeah, big time, yeah, and also also, that brings something to mind when I think about, you know, the social media aspect and tattooing is. I find it very peculiar that people feel that they should comment about tattoos in a negative way when they're on people's bodies. Negative way, um, when they're on people's bodies, you know, it's just an interesting observation that, uh, yeah, you're entitled to have your opinion about this, that and the other thing, but why would you comment about something that is on someone else's?
Speaker 1:yeah, I feel like it's no different than commenting about somebody's weight, or like if they have a crooked nose, or like it's an asshole thing to do, why do?
Speaker 3:it.
Speaker 1:Like it's like they can't change it why?
Speaker 3:Yeah, like, what value does that bring to your reality? Yeah, and you know it's interesting to critique and to bring these things forward because you know my tendency is always to be positive.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I think part of it is to bring them forward, to highlight them, to say like, yeah, if you're going to be fucking with my stuff, you know like these are the protocols, you know these are the cultural realities of engaging with my content.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, and you can roll up however you're going to, but it doesn't mean it's going to stay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting experience to be going through in terms of putting out this stuff very publicly.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it brings up a lot of interesting conversations that maybe. I haven't thought about or engaged with before. Yeah, you know, you said it was your dad that came in right. Yeah, he has. Was it hieroglyphs on his face? Yes, yeah, did you do those?
Speaker 1:It's a Micmac creation prayer. Yeah, I did them. It was the first face tattoo I had ever done. Wow, he was 61 years old and he had no tattoos. Yeah, and I was working in Halifax at the time and he always had long curly hair when I was a kid. Like he would trim maybe an inch off once a year. And I was at work one day and he sends me a text and he said I'm ready for my first tattoo. And I said okay, what do you want? And he said I want my face tattooed. And I said you're, you're joking. And he said no, he said I want my face tattooed and you're going to do it. He said and I'm going to shave my hair into a Mohawk. And I said you're not.
Speaker 1:Like I had never seen him cut his hair yeah so later on the afternoon he sends me a picture and he shaved his hair into a mohawk and I was like oh, my god, I said my dad's going through a midlife crisis or something.
Speaker 1:So I spent two weeks. He was set on this face tattoo and we always had uh, the prayer on parchment paper hanging in our house and it's 56 symbols all together. I couldn't tell you what it says, but he can speak it. But I tried to talk him out of it for two weeks and I said, dad, like people are going to talk about you, like you can't if you regret it, like you can't wash it off, I'm like it was almost like when you're talking to a kid that wants their first tattoo and you're like you might regret it, like, anyway, my boss at the time, I said how do I talk him out of this tattoo? Like he can't get his face tattooed. He's 61 years old.
Speaker 2:He said he's 61 years old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he said he's 61 years old. He said if he wants his face tattooed, tattoo his face. Yeah. And I was like all right, I brought all. He said, bring your stuff home on the weekend. And I said okay. So I packed up all my tattoo stuff and I came home on the weekend and I tattooed his face in our kitchen that we grew up in, up in and yeah, yeah, he, the only spot he flinched for was on either side of his cheeks, right here yeah, yeah, I can I can, yeah, as you're going up to the nose, yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, a little spicy, there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's uh, that's uh it was so funny just makes me think I'm gonna. I'll come back to that, but I just have to tell this story. We were in altaroa in new zealand and we had, uh, there's a little tent outside, um the uh the farinui, uh, you know, at the marai, so at the communal uh meeting house in new zealand, and uh, one of the uh the little guys were, you know, riding their bikes around and, you know, one of my friends was like yeah this reminds me of little rez kids, you know, going and balling around, uh, the mariah in the community there.
Speaker 3:but anyways, uh, these two young, young fellas kept riding their bike past the little tent that we were in tattooing, yeah, and so they stopped and oh, how's it going, you know? And then, but it was so cute because they, one of them rolled up beside my friend. We were tattooing a big form line. I think it was a bear. I can't totally remember A bear on his chest. Gregory Williams, haida tattoo artist. He came over and we did some work on his chest. Of course, sitting there getting that done, it's not always the funnest place and a little guy comes over and he's like, oh, is that spicy.
Speaker 1:Not a very good.
Speaker 3:New Zealand accent. But it was just the cutest thing you know, just this little tiny.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I always say you know, that's one of my dreams, and I've said it before is that's one of my dreams, is that our little ones grow up in their tattooing tradition yeah they're not worrying about reviving something, they're just living in it yeah, right, and so it's so cool to see that.
Speaker 2:Is that spicy so cool?
Speaker 1:you never know that kid might grow up to be a tattoo artist just because they've seen that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's pretty cool to see that on your dad's face. You know living and walking in the world. Yeah, you know, when I think about it, especially just the few times that I've been able to have conversations with them. You know really about resistance.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And for me it's also that speaks to that. What would you say that resilience, right, when you look at that on his face, you're just like fuck yeah. Yeah, it's powerful, you know so powerful, you know, especially because yeah whole face, yeah first tattoo.
Speaker 1:I'm just like man. And then he ended up getting a eight-pointed star on his hand and I've asked him a few times are you going to get any more tattoos? He said, no, I'm done. I got what I needed. Now I'm done. But I never, growing up, never, ever thought I would see my dad with a tattoo, especially on his face. But he just called me up one day. I'm ready for my first tattoo and I'm like okay, cool.
Speaker 3:Are you sure? But okay, cool, you can. I can imagine you in your mind like oh yeah, yeah cool. You know what do we do? Yeah, it's like oh, my face, what, what?
Speaker 1:the like. Never in a million years would I think that. But yeah, yeah, it's him, yeah yeah, totally, you can see it.
Speaker 3:I I can't. You. You know, I never met him before, so I never seen him before, but I couldn't picture him without it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And like uh, in our family, like we see it every day and we forget that it's there. Um, my sister was working at a salon one time and she was out back in the staff room having lunch and, uh, one of the one of her co-workers comes back and she goes summer, there is a big native man here with a face tattoo that's here to see you and she's like with a face tattoo. She said I don't know anybody with a face tattoo and she said she went out and she said, oh, that's, that's my dad.
Speaker 3:Like we just forget that he has it. Yeah, it's just there. It's just who he is. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, it's, you know. Pretty awesome to see that you know in McMoggy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and see it walking around.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I thought it was powerful too and important to bring up and highlight and put that forward. And you know, uh, it probably was an interesting experience doing that on your dad on his head, in your family home yeah um you know it's probably like I was shitting bricks to be honest like
Speaker 1:I had never tattooed a face before in my whole career. Yeah and uh, I'm like, oh my god, like I can't mess this up. Like what if I get a line wrong? Like I'm double checking it, and some of it goes across his forehead, across his cheeks and then across his chin. Yeah, so we had to figure out because the the one we had in our kitchen was just like I have five or six lines, like in a rectangle, so we had to line them all up so you could still read it properly, and it worked perfect yeah, probably.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I could just thinking about stenciling that and putting it all on there, it's like this gives me anxiety, thinking about it, let alone doing like.
Speaker 1:I must ask him if he was sure, like five or six times before I even made the first line like are you?
Speaker 3:sure and the other thing is, too, is like those are, you know, uh, hieroglyphs, so people know exactly, and because of what it? Is people would be familiar with it too, right yeah so, and the fact that you can't read it, that's also a challenge. Yeah, yeah, interesting experience, but yeah, pretty cool to see it.
Speaker 1:There was a thread on Facebook one day and it was the prayer and a bunch of other people were like oh, I got like this symbol from the prayer and I got this symbol from the prayer and I got this line. I shared the one on my dad's face and they're just like oh, my god he went all out and I'm like, yeah, he did yeah, okay yeah, yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's totally cool. Yeah, it's cool to see that uh here. Um yeah, because a lot of people you know uh don't always think about you know, mi'kmaq with that, with the marks right. You know, in my research, you know, I found a few lines that talk about Mi'kmaq tattooing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, and it's. I think part of that challenge is that in first contact here, because it was so long ago, in first contact here because it was so long ago that anything that was written and it's true with the one, two sentences that I've found it doesn't actually say the word tattoo. Yeah, it only says you know, ink inserted under skin? Yeah, so it's like a description of tattooing, but it's not actually the word tattoo there is the mcmack word for tattoo.
Speaker 1:Um, I can't. I can't remember it offhand, but it's in my dictionary, I'll send it to you. Yeah, that's awesome and I think you know that's also.
Speaker 3:The other thing, too, that's important to highlight is like um, using those words, yeah is important because it helps to reinvigorate them in our everyday realities. But, yeah, and I would also say the other thing about research here, because of course I'm not researching Mi'kmaq tattooing, but it just comes up in my own research here, there and everywhere. Just comes up in my own research here, there and everywhere. Um, you know, I'll gather stuff for my korea friends.
Speaker 3:I'll gather stuff for whoever I know is looking for stuff yeah or if I just come across something, I'll grab it so that, when the right person comes, I can pass it along but I also think part of it would be the documentation of the tattooing here would also be in french yeah, so you'd have to have a French researcher to go into some of those early documents, to find some of that knowledge. So, yeah, those are just tips for anyone who's out there who's doing research on and Eastern you know. Uh, tattooing is to.
Speaker 1:Those are some hints to start that work yeah, um, I started piercing before I started tattooing and, uh, when I was 13 14, I wanted to start stretching my ears yeah and my parents were like, why would you want to do that?
Speaker 1:so I had a message. My aunt already born with three thumbs, yeah, and I said, do you know anything? Because she loved all that research stuff, right, yeah. I said do you know anything about Micmac people stretching their ears? Mm-hmm. And she said I'll take a look for you. She said but if that's something you feel like you need to do, then do it. Yeah, and I was just like, okay, cool. And she did end up sending me some stuff about them having piercings in their ears.
Speaker 3:So, but I don't know, I just wanted to stretch my ears. Yeah, some of my uh friends who have uh, really uh stretched their ears. You know they've shared how some of that was also a process of uh regulation. You know, internal regulation with some of the pain. Just because you know, even though mine aren't that big, they were stretched a little bit further, but oh fuck, I hated having them stretched yeah having that healing. You know like a little touch and you're just like whoa fuck. You know like it's yeah.
Speaker 1:I had my. Mine were almost two inches at one point, holy shit. And then I took them out and I'm like I'll see how far they'll go back, but this is as far as they'll go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's as far as you're going to get.
Speaker 1:But I feel like I don't know. I'm at a point where I'm like I might just get them removed, like have them, so I don't have any earlobes at all like that. I don't know.
Speaker 3:But everything's a process and everything's a journey. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Just kind of like Photoshop it so you can see what that looks like. Well, for Halloween one year I covered up all of my tattoos with makeup and I taped my ears up in behind and I took out all my jewelry. And my kids come home from school and they go. What is wrong with?
Speaker 2:you and I'm like what do you mean?
Speaker 1:And they're like you're not the same person, like you don't even look like the same person, like you're not my mom, like it's like uncanny valley yeah, but I'm like that goes to show you like that the markings on somebody's skin is who they are like, because you take them away and you're just like who are you like?
Speaker 3:yeah yeah, it was interesting when I uh did uh interview with Echo because of course, we did her body suit and, looking through their Instagram, they had some of their modeling and some of their earlier shots of like back in the day.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I was like oh, like they didn't have any tattoos, and I was like well, that's so weird to see people without their markings. Yeah, you know. Um, yeah, it's interesting seeing myself. I seen some old pictures, uh, of myself when I only had a few little tiny pieces. Yeah, well, this is weird myself when I only had a few little tiny pieces. Yeah, well, this is weird, but yeah, I could see how that would be a bit jarring when your kids come home.
Speaker 2:They're like oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Like they didn't know me without tattoos.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So you said, you started piercing first. Yeah, uh, how long were you piercing?
Speaker 1:Um, I was piercing up until the regulations came out in 2018. Yeah, so, um, when the new regulations came out, uh, you needed a whole separate space to pierce. So up until that point, like I'd have my bed set up and my tray and everything and I'd have I'd set up for a tattoo and clean up my stuff set up for a piercing. So with the new regulations, they said you need a whole separate area to pierce out of.
Speaker 1:So when I started piercing, it was at my childhood home that we grew up in, and I was 16, I think, and I was buying piercing stuff online on ebay piercing needles and corks and all the jewelry, um, and I actually was just piercing friends and stuff and I had.
Speaker 1:I had a waiver that I had like find a waiver online. Like my parents were like if this is what you're doing, you got to be safe about it, right? Yeah, so I'd wear my gloves and I'd have my waivers and I get them to sign the waiver and they come up to my bedroom and give them a belly button piercing. Yeah, but I saved up money from body piercing to moved Ontario when I turned 18 so I don't. It's always just been like. This is what you're supposed to do, like, like tattoos and piercings.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:My parents were always just like, okay, that's what you want to do, like I support you. Um. So, yeah, I did that for years, um, and then when the new regulations came out, I got, got out of it, but I miss it. Yeah, I really do yeah, so I might got out of it, but I miss it. Yeah, I really do. So I might we might expand and put in a piercing room.
Speaker 2:Oh, that'd be cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's interesting, the uh that movement. It's always funny too when uh just putting out the podcast interviews and people you know commenting about this, that and the other thing about you know uh people talking about beginning. You know uh Gord talked about beginning in his room. You know uh people talking about beginning.
Speaker 3:You know uh gordon talked about beginning in his room you know, like a jailhouse style tattoo machine and other artists have also shared about that, and it's so funny that, uh, you know, uh, the industry, the tattoo industry, doesn't always know their own history yeah right, you listen to podcast interviews.
Speaker 3:You read a lot of books. You know, I read some of the. You know what was it called? Uh, was the tattoo artist magazine. It was a magazine that you could only buy if you were a tattoo artist, right? Um, and I remember reading some of the bios of people you know, interviews and stuff, and you know so many people who are well known in the industry started in that same place Right yeah.
Speaker 3:And a lot of people think about like apprenticeships is the way to go. But you know, you look at like Milton Zeiss was, like you know, an old school tattoo supplier and he did a distance course. Yeah, like in the back of a magazine.
Speaker 3:You know, poplar mechanic like yeah you could get like a course yeah, to take to learn, and so it's so funny that people uh think they know, but they don't actually know about the history of their own practice yeah they're like, you know, you know up in arms, you know, with their pitchforks and all that shit to say, oh everybody needs an apprenticeship, not I would also say, like for indigenous people, uh, a lot of times those things are not, uh, they're not good yeah right like there is a lot of racism in those places yeah and so, uh, why the fuck would you want to go there?
Speaker 3:yeah, plus you're also learning the same bullshit the guy from you before.
Speaker 1:Yeah like you pick up other people's bad habits and yeah like even being a female in the industry. Like if you get on some of those tattoo groups on facebook and they're like women shouldn't be in the tattoo industry and just like walk totally.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's another interesting, you know uh conversation in terms of uh that uh reality, you know, for women in the industry. Of course it's changing, but some of the, some of those ideas are still there yeah right, yeah, so it's uh, yeah, something interesting to think about, uh, when people you know uh, before you start commenting about stuff you know uh, make sure you know what the fuck you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, that's the reality, and then you know like I said before, uh, you know this podcast.
Speaker 3:You know if you listen to it and it doesn't hit, it wasn't meant for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, so just carry on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you'll find your people. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3:And it's not to say that you know. Non-indigenous folks you know are more than welcome to listen and you know, I've interviewed a couple different people. It was interesting. Some like I don't't know some influencer messaged me like yeah, you know, like a a coach, yeah, whatever, a business coach or whatever they're like. Oh, this we think you we'd be a good fit you're for your podcast. I'm like homie, have you even listened to my podcast like this is not a fit at all you might have to have them on, though, yeah, you might.
Speaker 1:They might learn something from you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure, that was the thing that I said was like you know, uh, at this point, you know, we're just at the beginning stages yeah um, you know, maybe in the future, because you know, I do want to talk to uh non-tattooers yeah because, you know, there are some topics that I want to explore, like, say, uh, trauma that started the body yeah right, because so much of the work that we do has to do with trauma in the body yeah right, like you're going tattooing in a place and somebody just starts crying yeah right, and you know that's not a cry from the physical pain, it's a different type.
Speaker 3:Yeah right, a deep, deep something they need to let out yeah and so it's like there's a lot of topics that I want to explore that aren't specifically about tattoos.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, and then it's also called transformative marks because I think, uh, some of our artists are doing transformative marks in terms of the paint, in terms of beadwork, in terms of quill work, all that stuff, those are marks that are being made, that are transformative yeah and then I also think of, like indigenous academics who were say, uh, talking about identity, talking about the Indian Act, talking about about the residential school, Like those are all important topics that when I think about because you know it's interesting after the you know I'm only into what like the third or fourth week of this launching. And you know, the amount of messages that I get that people want to talk about cultural appropriation is just like mind-boggling. It's just like what?
Speaker 1:Like, that's the thing that you want to fucking talk about, but yeah, it's an interesting topic too, though oh, 100%, yeah, and like where is the line between appreciation and appropriation?
Speaker 3:well, I think for me, uh, that line is you can appreciate it, say, maybe you go and you sketch it and you draw it and all that stuff, well, you're appreciating it, but when you start to sell it, yeah I think that's a very hard line yeah between appreciating and appropriating so if a white person wants to come in and get something to for from like your nation and they're like I love your nation, I love what you do can you put one of those marks on me would, would you do it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, because when I think about that, it's about rights, relationship and responsibility.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The way that I frame that conversation. Yeah, because somebody in that relationship has to have rights, in my opinion, to that mark.
Speaker 2:Yeah To that artwork yeah.
Speaker 3:And so if it's me, then yeah, totally I can gift that to them, because it's from my community. Yeah right, and so that's my right, that's my inheritance yeah right, but with that right comes the responsibility to discern who should and shouldn't have.
Speaker 2:Yes, and how.
Speaker 3:I should act with it, and so, because I have a right, I have a responsibility, yeah, and I also have a relationship to it yeah and then I would say, uh, on the flip side, you know, I tattoo a lot of migma folks with migma black work yeah but that's because I'm here and they're migma, yeah, so I don't put migma marks on non-migma people yeah right, because that's. Those are not my marks.
Speaker 3:I don't have a right to them yeah, but if a person comes to me who is migmakmaq, I will do that work for them, because they have the rights, relationship and responsibility to it. Right, and then when I think about that, it's also, um, you know, I had this conversation with my friend Nahon, who's from the Northwest coast, and they do form line design work you know, and they do form line design work.
Speaker 3:You know that's an imported description of that style. Yeah, it's an easy way to communicate that style. Yeah, and the. You know I've had mentorship from him and other Northwest Coast folks and he's like that is your right to use those things because of the relationship and the trust that we have given you. So, of course, when you think about ancestrally, we would have shared things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:And so that sharing speaks to the relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So there are some people who are non-Indigenous or from a certain nation that have relationship to those marks because they've been gifted to that by somebody who has the rights to it. So it's like you know, I think that's a good way to start to think about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I've done, like some dream catcher tattoos. Like everybody wants a dream catcher, why not? They're beautiful and I know some artists and they're like I won't do that. Like that's not part, that's not mcmack, and I'm like no, it's ojibwe, I believe. Um, but like we should. Like I've been making dream catchers with my dad since I was little. Like it's not part of our culture, but it's just something fun to do. Um, if someone comes to me and they want a dream catcher, I'm like you know where they originate and who am I to say I'm not going to give that to you. Like we're all going to meet the creator one day.
Speaker 2:You can answer to the creator if they don't like your tattoo?
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure, you know, and I also acknowledge that you know. That's the way that I see it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's the way, that that's the relationship yeah I'm filled with those things yeah, um yeah, I've done hella dream catchers. Yeah, part of that is, it's part of that pan-indigenous perspective yeah and you know it's that also brings up another interesting conversation where, um, a lot of times, because of the displacement and because of the diaspora, or because of the legislation that has separated indigenous people from their communities and cultures, yeah, um, sometimes all they have is the pan-indigenous perspective yeah right, and so it's like um, you know, I had uh.
Speaker 3:At one time I was a pastor in a christian church yeah, and one of the pastors said you know, you don't take away someone's belief unless you have the time to give them something of value to replace it yeah right, and so that's what I think about in terms of the pan-indigenous perspective is there are indigenous people in the world. The only thing that they have to hang on to is those yeah things that were put in the media yeah, that um make them feel connected and make them feel whole.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's an interesting idea, of like yeah well, where does that line? Yeah, and.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I don't know that I've even come to an understanding, and that's what I've said, you know, in the introduction to this podcast is like sometimes we're thinking through these things real time. Yeah, so it's not a fully formed thought, I don't even know where I stand on it, but it was just something that I thought about Because I know there are some artists artists, you know, uh, what would you say? Fine artists that talk about pan-indigenous perspectives, yeah, but I'm like, but some of that wasn't that person's fault, that that's the only thing that they have yeah like it was the colonizer who took away their culture.
Speaker 3:It was the colonizer who, um, what would you say, made their life so miserable from the place that they were from that they had to move to the urban city.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right To live and to make a living and to survive Right. So now we're going to penalize people, we're going to put people down, we're going to shame people because of their shit, that that they had no control over yeah yeah, that's what the colonizer would want yeah, that's the one thing I think, about right now, with a lot of the stuff that's going on around identities, is like for me. It's like I think about the separation that's happening in our communities yeah, and I think uh who does that benefit?
Speaker 3:that doesn't benefit us no that benefits the colonists yeah that benefits the government. Yeah right, like if you think, if you think really hard, do you think that I don't know more? Or do you think that all of those resistance movements would happen today? No, no, we're so separated yeah right we're calling each other out we're pointing fingers. We're doing all that stuff. It's like nah, that wouldn't happen today because there isn't enough unity, there isn't enough uh, reaching hands and going yeah let's go do this together.
Speaker 3:Instead it's going no. Uh, you know, because all of these arguments are over, I call them the colonial scraps yeah it's like, oh well, you're not this, you're not that, whatever.
Speaker 3:And um, what is it why? Well, it's because it's about scholarships, it's about uh, you know jobs, it's about all of those money. So for me, those are those colonial scraps, and for me I'm like no, let's bring as many people in that we can, so we can build a better pie, a bigger pie, instead of taking the scraps from the colonial yeah, right, that's how we go together, yeah but you know, again, that's another challenging perspective.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I look forward to further conversations about it. Yeah, cool. Um, yeah, it was funny. We're just about to end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, came back around you know that happens all the time but yeah, no, I thought it was a important to explore.
Speaker 3:You know that journey that you took with body modification before and, um, I don't know how the hell we ended up over here. That's all right. Um, is there any other things that uh come to mind that you want to share before we end up? Nothing comes to mind yeah, you know for sure, um, yeah I just want to thank you for taking the time to sit down with me, have this conversation.
Speaker 3:You know, uh, I've enjoyed it. Uh, it's interesting how you know a lot of these conversations, even though, uh, they're start with tattooing. We explore so many different things, right, um, and I appreciate, appreciate your willingness to share about, you know, that tendency to not to want to be out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right that tendency that we all have, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Especially in this time, because you know it feels dangerous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I also feel like it's important to just like disconnect every once in a while yeah, big time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, definitely I. Uh, that's why I love hiking and backpacking yes, you know you're getting out in the bush, and I always relate it back to my brother. You know, uh, we did the Stein Valley Traverse, so it's, uh, it's 130 ish kilometer hike over the coastal mountains. So it starts in little lake. We go all the way up over.
Speaker 3:It's an old trade route that we had, um, and you go up over the mountains and then you come down and you know, we also used to hunt and go in there to do, uh, our coming of age and those things, but we went up, we come down and it's like seven, eight days of hiking with no cell service that's awesome right but it was so funny because we come around this one corner and you see a telephone pole, yeah, my brother's like, yes, civilization, I see a telephone pole.
Speaker 3:It's just so funny, right, uh, I see a telephone pole. It's just so funny, right, uh, it is. Uh. And it's an interesting experience too, of like, when you're out, you, you know, the first few days it's like getting used to not having that yeah, and then you know the middle period, you're like, okay, it doesn't even you don't even think about it, yeah, but then, like the day before you know you're going to come out, or two days before you start thinking, oh, what do I got to do when I get?
Speaker 3:yeah, right, like you know what's the next thing. Yeah, it's such an interesting experience of going from that place, of like knowing that how little you actually need to survive, which is yeah food, water and shelter yeah right. And then people, other people, companions, yeah, um, that is really all you need to survive.
Speaker 1:But then, when you start to come out of that experience, how, like, the reality of the everyday world starts to yeah well every morning I make a coffee and I get my dog ready and there's nine acres in behind my property oh beautiful, and I live in town, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:So I go out and I take my coffee and I take my dog before the sun comes up every morning and we go out in the backyard and we follow the deer tracks because I have three deer that come visit me, yeah, in my yard every morning and it's a mom and two one-year-olds, and they every day for the past two years. Wow. So I go out with the dog and we you can't even see the houses, you can't even tell you're in town and we just walk through there and we see the critters and we'll talk to the critters and the birds and the deer. But the only thing that's been driving me nuts lately is lawrenstown has that, that, uh, greenhouse, and they have those pink lights so I go out there in the morning and they have those freaking pink lights on.
Speaker 1:I'm like I can't see the stars. Yeah, like the light pollution. And I'm every time I'm on facebook and people post a picture oh, look at the pink sky. I I'm like the light pollution is terrible. I'm like do you guys even know what this does to the wildlife in the area? Anyway, nobody understands.
Speaker 3:And then also too, especially now with the snow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like it's more, because just that reflection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everything's pink. I'm like this is so unnatural.
Speaker 3:Crazy, eh, reflection. Yeah, everything's pink.
Speaker 1:I'm like this is so unnatural, yeah, crazy, eh, like. I moved home from the city because I couldn't see the stars at nighttime and now it's getting like that here. I'm like I don't know.
Speaker 3:The woods doesn't sound so bad yeah, that's always the uh, that's always the toss-up, uh, you know it's. You talk about that fine line, the fine line between like being in this current reality and then just totally disconnecting and going off grid. Yeah, you know not worrying, just worrying about those necessities, yeah, you know, sometimes that seems, you know, powerful and beautiful, and the other times I think back to growing up and having to chop wood all the time. And you know always making sure like it's a lot of fucking work.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And like the homeless population here, like in behind Superstore. They got a tent city.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And on the nights where it's cold and I'm in my house and I'm warm and I'm just like. And on the nights where it's cold and I'm in my house and I'm warm and I'm just like. Sometimes I'm like I was born to live in the 1700s and then it's freezing cold and I'm like man, I don't know if I could live in a tent like them people yeah. Like freak, it's tough, yeah, and the government doesn't give a shit.
Speaker 3:No, no, not at all. Yeah, it's a lot of challenges in those ways, but yeah, um, I really appreciate you taking the time to sit with me and uh bullshit around about a variety of topics yeah, it was fun. I look forward to the next time yeah, me too yeah, awesome.
Speaker 3:hey, everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me. Uh, through this, I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. You are where you're from what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Head on over to next week's episode, where I talk to Hockey Williams. In this episode, we talk about early hybridization of Samoan Tatao and Maori Moko. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.