Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Sacred Markings: Cody Tolmie on Indigenous Tattoo Art, Healing, and Visual Sovereignty
#035 Can tattoos be more than just body art? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Cody Tolmie, who shares his deep connection to Indigenous tattoo artistry and cultural practices. From his involvement in the Nlaka'pamux Blackwork project to spontaneous skin stitch experiences, Cody's journey unveils the profound trust and excitement of becoming a canvas for these sacred markings. We discuss the historical and genealogical significance of each tattoo, emphasizing the powerful bonds they create within the community.
Ever wondered about the healing power of tattoos? We explore how Indigenous tattooing offers grounding and emotional release, highlighting the physical and emotional challenges that accompany the process. Cody reflects on the sense of comfort found in natural surroundings and the personal growth unlocked through enduring pain. We also touch on the historical context of tattooing as a medical practice, offering a unique perspective on its transformative potential.
Our conversation extends beyond tattoos to contemporary Indigenous sculptural practices and the concept of visual sovereignty. Cody’s journey from formal art education to exploring cultural artifacts in museum collections reveals the importance of respecting origins and maintaining cultural heritage. We discuss the impact of natural disasters on cultural items and the importance of integrating traditional designs into modern life to ensure their relevance. This episode paints a vivid picture of how traditional art forms continue to shape and enrich our cultural narratives.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Cody at:
Instagram @ctolemy
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts & We acknowledge the support of Arts Nova Scotia
Most often for me, people will look at my tattoos and they'll be like oh, they're kind of like, they like look harder and like what is that? Like it's not something they've ever seen before right, or maybe they've seen components of it in places like museums, you know but that's like restricted and like not coming from community and not within a visual sovereignty.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intakamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work Bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:Hey Israel, cody Tolme, telskwe Tleitzlacla Skalitz, good day. My name is Cody Tolme, my band is Skalitz, but I grew up in Kikanao Family Housing in Chilliwack. Jackie Williams is my mother and Casey Tolme is my father.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Yeah, so we're here for the for the infacom book black work, round up, uh, which is like the culmination or the end of a project, and you were one of the participants, collaborators, in this project, and so, when you think back to that initial call out of like participants, what was your uh thought process or what were you thinking when you were like, oh, and then you filled out the paperwork, or you filled out, uh, that application?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think, uh, my initial reaction was actually thinking about the skin stitch that you did on my shoulder, and I remember just being like, oh, just whatever. Just being like putting full trust in you and like your intuition around design, and just being like, ok, like I'm curious as to like what will happen, and then being really excited to fill out that form, also feeling kind of like, oh, I wish I could get a whole body piece, but there's still parts of like other tattoos that are unfinished, that are continuing continuing to be made, and then like submitting it and being like really excited to see what you would come up with. And then it really makes me think of when I came to Salmon Arm for the first session. Yeah, and I like totally forgot, we were even tattooing Me too.
Speaker 2:We were catching up.
Speaker 1:And then I remember you put the design on the table and, I'll be honest, I had a full body sweat because I was like, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:We're here to tattoo. Yeah, we're here to tattoo my whole chest.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh cool, but just really excited to see what would come Just in that creative process and kind of I don't know like being a canvas in a literal sense, right, yeah, and like what that relationship looks like between your mark making and my body, I guess.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah yeah, I guess that's also a good point. Uh, for me I kind of skipped ahead there. Let's actually look at if you're totally comfortable with some of the marks that you have before we got to the intercom mcblackwork piece yeah, just share whatever you like to share, about whatever you have. Yeah, which?
Speaker 1:way. Yeah, so the first, like uh, skin stitch that you did on me. And then what I really love about all the tattoos that I have is that, like the people, the other people that have tattooed me have learned from you. So there's still like I don't know, like knowledge or genealogy that's being shared between these different mark makings. So this is the skin stitch, and then this is a poke from Amberlee, which she designed and gifted me some forms, and this is one of the tattoos that is like taking more time and has been over years, which is like something I appreciate about it, because there's no rush for it and like it's just happening as it will.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And I remember you came for the first indigenous Earth earthline tattoo school in Kelowna and you got skin stitch on your leg, I believe. Oh yeah, I don't know if I can. Yeah, you don't have to show it.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, uh, amy Malbouf, uh uh, skin stitched my, my calf there and then that was. The thing is in the same way that I applied to the Blackbird project. Yeah, when I got there with Amy, I remember just being like, oh, I'll just do whatever, yeah. And that was not the case with Amy and he was like no, you have to pick what you want, right?
Speaker 1:And I was like, oh, okay, so we picked um a sun pictograph, uh, which I just thought was really suitable, and uh, and we did this stitch down there in that house that they were renting.
Speaker 2:So it was an awesome experience.
Speaker 1:And another thing where it was like I think I was doing like a summer camp counselor thing at.
Speaker 1:UBC Okanagan. Yeah, and you folks were like, do you want a tattoo? And I was like, yeah, let's go. It's always just so like it's not on a whim, but like I'm just like already in right. So that kind of feeling of um being lucky and feeling lucky to be included, but also like knowing when to appreciate that moment and be like okay, I'm committed, right, yeah, I'm in this, yeah, yeah, yeah, I actually remember that we were.
Speaker 2:You came in. I think it was probably like a good two hours before. I remember that we were there on Salmon Arm to tattoo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like we were just catching up bullshit.
Speaker 2:And then I'm like oh yeah, I guess I should show you the design.
Speaker 1:And then you had two different ones and they're both like beautiful and amazing. But I just felt like, oh, that's what's going to on me immediately, right? Uh, and it was. It was such a good space and like also like the area, like I like that. It was like out of the way.
Speaker 1:It was quiet after just like resting, I think we watched some like disney movies just to get real easy, barely made it to that subway like yeah, uh, and I appreciated, like the quiet and the calm and also the space that was maintained after, because it felt really important to just be able to bleed a bit and not have too much to do at the same time. So it was good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was pretty cool. That's one thing I've really learned in this project too, is what a potential shop slash studio I would like to have you know something. You know, maybe not in the city, somewhere that's a little bit more you know has a nice view, because I think that one we had like a nice view of the lake right beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a beautiful spot and so all those places I've worked, I've tried to have some nice natural setting as opposed to doing the work in the city, even though I think the second session maybe, or the third session we did in Vancouver, the third session was in Van.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the second session was in Salmon Arm again, but it was on that property.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, in the bush. Yeah, it was more of a bush property than a lake property property. But yeah, that's one thing that I've really started to think about is like what would a potential shop look like?
Speaker 1:you know, with those type of, because it's like you don't know what you're going to learn in that experience and like I think everybody has, uh, shared that same feeling of like it being different because it wasn't in a shop yeah, like not that I have any experience of what it's like getting tattooed in a shop, but I think, like I remember, maybe it was the next day that we went out, or later that day, I can't remember right now, but just being thankful that I was like oh, we're just like chilling by water, it's just like it's nice and cold which for some reason I wanted to be cold at the time and like just wandering around and like oh, there's that eagle's nest, so like that eagle hen who's out there, like yeah, just like very simple things and like staying like kind of grounded in that way and also like the you know, everyone talks about the pain of a tattoo and, like it is, however it will be for you.
Speaker 1:I'm not like suggesting, uh, anything other than that, but like having those things to look at outside was like really awesome and I think it really helped the process yeah, yeah, yeah, being able to uh see those things while you were getting that work done yeah yeah, when you think of the process of receiving the work, I mean you, you touched on a little bit about the pain, but uh, what was that experience like, going through getting that work done?
Speaker 1:Ah, I think the whole experience it was very exciting, like definitely exciting. It still excites me, I think. I still like just look in a mirror still and I'm like, oh nice you know not to like you know, to my own horror or anything, but like your work's amazing, I'm so like lucky to have it on me, um, but also, yeah, like the actual, the feeling of, of the tattooing. Is that what you mean?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah it felt pretty, it felt very intensive and like, uh, some some level of like confronting things while also staying present, uh, and I think part of why, like I believe part of why I was able to work through that and like in for me such a large piece I know, like other people in this, uh, the blackboard project they have like full body suits that they've like really worked through.
Speaker 1:I think that's amazing, right. But for me it was also like that relationship that we have, where it's like I felt comforted and like things were coming up. Especially in the second session I was like, oh, I don't know where this is coming coming from, uh, and I'm like crying and like sobbing, but I'm like I'm not, it's not out of pain, it's like there's something there, right, yeah, uh, and then also feeling my body going to shock at a certain after a certain amount of time. It was interesting and it was like I don't know, it's good that it was a challenge and just to see how you yourself will react was like an exciting part of it. I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think those are some things that I've actually been reflecting on as well. Things that I've actually been reflecting on as well is like that, that experience of people going through it and releasing whatever they're releasing whether that's with emotion or you can see a change in a person's body yeah, it's like understanding the value and the purpose of that, and also it makes me think of, like, how fucking awesome our ancestors were you know like this was an, a medical epistemology that they had for, you know, uh, our ancestors.
Speaker 2:And so it's like just taking those lessons from this work, right, yeah. And then also, uh, thinking about that experience of shock, I think is also something to reflect on, and I think I noticed that real change and transformation in people after they went through that little kind of, uh, you know, body shake and then that release of, like, the breath of, like, yeah, right, like just some really interesting things that I'm beginning to explore and to think a lot about that experience of people having yeah, like there's.
Speaker 2:There's definitely something it makes me think of, like you gotta earn it kind of right you gotta you're like you're worth it, but you gotta earn it yeah, uh, and, and there's no other way to right.
Speaker 1:There's, there's no other like. There's no step that you can skip. You're worth it, but you got to earn it. Yeah, uh, and, and there's no other way to right. There's, there's no other like, there's no step that you can skip. You have to do the whole thing. Yeah, uh, while also, yeah, like, having that space, um, where we can acknowledge that yeah, it's painful, yeah, or yeah, I went into shock. It's uh, it's's not a competition about pain. You know there's. No, I don't see any competition in this. Or like because you felt like you suffered more or whatever else, like you're more validated in the process. It's just like whatever your subjective and individual experience is is what's valid, whatever that might be.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's a really valuable point. I think, uh, the reality is is that we only go as far and as fast as each individual can go. Yeah, you know, and each person is, uh, completely an individual, and sometimes that's an hour, right. Sometimes that's, you know, a half an hour. There's no shame. That's just as far as you can go, because the reality is, without saying too much is, you're also going through a lot of other things while you're doing this work. It's not just that physical space and time that we're dealing with. There's a lot of other stuff that you're working through that, uh, is outside of those things that we generally talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just going to say that, and let that be um, but yeah, no, I think that that is a reality and people don't always understand that or think about it or, um, you have been through enough to know and recognize those things you know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you're right, it's not any type of competition, it's you working through the things that you need to work through and feel the things that you need to feel, and you know, part of that is also that sensation of coming back to your body, because so often our bot, we're trying to get away from that. We're trying to get away and escape from that pain and also, you know, a lot of shit is stored in the body and we don't know why or where or how or what it actually is. And I would, in some cases, actually argue that that trauma response not the trauma response, that like the shaking and kind of what we would say going into shock Sometimes, even though it's only been an hour, two hours, that is actually more of a healing trauma response than it is in terms of, like, your body not being able to handle it anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you're like working something out, yeah, and I think, like just to add on to that, it's also this mindfulness around our bodies that like maybe we're not in as much I can say that for myself. It was like, oh, like feeling like how I could and could not move and like twist and everything, and like I especially had these points where, like they were like getting real crusty and like didn't like moving at all and just like really feeling like. It's like how, like, say, you learn how to meditate by like just feeling the breath or whatever. It's like kind of similar to that in my mind, where you're feeling, like you're being forced to feel, in my case with my chest, and pay attention to that you have to yeah, yeah, definitely and if you don't?
Speaker 1:you're reminded, yeah, and if you don't, you're not taking care of it. Yeah, and you just have to do it again right, yeah so that I think that is a big component of like being present and being mindful and like maybe looking at that pain as an opportunity for growth or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time. Yeah, I really enjoyed working with you, also because of your ability to articulate some of those things and to think through some of those things. We've talked about it a little bit and we don't have to talk about it here publicly. You know some of that Salish stuff. You know that stuff that's connected to who we are as people. You know is really a joy for me to work through some of that stuff with you. And also, you know I'm thankful and I'm honored that a lot of times you call me a mentor, but in a same, similar way, you're my mentor, you're my teacher. You know I actually learn a lot from you and one of the things that I really enjoy about you is you're like your insistence and your um, the attitude of trying to make sure that you're doing things in a good way and always like that is almost seems like it's at the forefront of your mind.
Speaker 2:It's like every step you take, or even sometimes, maybe you take a step and then you're like, oh shit, maybe that wasn't but you're still asking that question right constantly, and so that's one of the things I admire about you, so I just wanted to share that with you publicly and lift you up because of the way that you live in the world in that way. So, yeah, that's important for me to share with you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Yeah, I really appreciate that. Yeah, I feel like I try and like in my own practice like that's a big component where I'm not trying to speak as if I know everything or that I am burdened with this intense knowledge that only comes from me. I try and be really careful with my work and what I do and I try to be really accountable. I feel like accountability has become a big part of my practice and it's kind of at the forefront along with like authenticity. So I'm not trying to claim you know anything other than like what my contemporary Salish experience is, whatever that might be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not trying to fit it into anything anymore. I'm accepting it as it is. Yeah, while also acknowledging like a big part of that also probably comes from your mentorship and like what people like yourself Lamalut Waleiluk, tannis Nielsen, you know all these people that have stood by me while I'm just asking you all so many questions all the time and also like recognizing that that is like a form of relationality and like that's how discourse is created, but also like is actualized.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, big time, and I think that's also a good segue for us to start to move into your work and your practice as an artist. So do you want to talk a little bit about that, what that journey has been like for you, you know, moving into taking your master's, moving into thinking critically and theoretically about the work that you do, and then also share a little bit about what you do, what your practice is. Hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom.
Speaker 2:Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air Plus. Ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my ko-fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks.
Speaker 1:The link is in the show notes yeah, I guess, like artistically I don't know. My parents would probably say I've always been an artist, but, um, I guess, like making formal art probably happened during that UBC Okanagan Indigenous intensive over the summers and then visual art courses. I had painted before that, but I wouldn't say I'm any like in any form a formalized painter. Yeah, and and then, uh, yeah, I started my mfa um at simon fraser university at the school of contemporary arts. Um, and I think for my practice I was just trying to like push and like be as experimental as possible. I'm getting ahead of myself.
Speaker 1:Previous to my application to SFU, I had done some research on that residential school St Mary's Residential School and Mission that my family had gone to and for me I didn't want to like, I didn't want to bring anything up for them and I don't want to center my family's pain by any means. It's not something that I'm uh, invested in making public or having be viewed or consumed by any means. So, yeah, it was kind of like a way of seeing which. Now I need to go back even further because I'm still popcording ahead.
Speaker 1:No, that's fine, yeah which comes from, uh, man of man from stone ticholata I might be saying it wrong, um, but I'm doing my best, so whatever and uh, from the reach gallery exhibition, uh, book, and it talks about how, uh, you know, like in huamoc or stalo, worldview like humans are. So, um, we're like babies. So it's like how would we know anything that's going on around us and everyone, not just like Stalo specifically, and how like there's all these things in South Pamuk, like the Fraser Valley, as it's known in English, and how these things are present but can't be seen, and how we have to look at things and have a new way of viewing and we have to constantly do it. So in my mind, I was like I'm going to go to St Mary's multiple times just to understand the place, sorry, and just do some research and get to understand how that place in a contemporary setting and its own context now as well, which is Fraser Heritage Park, I think is what they call it and just do some research on the area. I ended up doing a photo series based on it and just like capturing moments there, uh. And then so in my, in my um mfa, I was like, okay, well, we did some studies like first year is a lot of reading and writing crazy, and um studio work which was like uh, interdisciplinary in nature, which I think was awesome, it was like a really great experience.
Speaker 1:Uh, and from working, making a group work, uh, where we combined polyethylene, chicken wire and um, it's like what is it called pink trombone? It's like what is it called Pink trombone? It's like this linguistic sound tool I'll show it to you later Shout out to pink trombone. It's amazing and kind of added these things together for a sculpture that made a sound From that. I really really like the visual tension that the polyethylene was able to make, especially with the chicken wire. So I asked my group mates if it was okay if I continued with this practice and like, yeah, and then we went. When we went on to our next semester, we then started making works for critique and uh for group viewing and preparing for our spring show.
Speaker 1:Um, and I would say that, like my experience of understanding um, saint mary's uh in in my own context, I guess, and it's also its place as like a historical um means of trauma. I guess um is what led me to my sculptural practice. Yeah, and from there I continued that work to where it is now, which I guess. I guess it's a matter of um understanding that my work comes from, um, my contemporary understanding of transformer stones in South Tama. Uh, so there's these stones, uh, which are throughout the Fraser Valley, and then they come up here too, don't they? And yeah, they're down, like at the end, going into the ocean, that, uh, in Paul Moak creation story, are like to me.
Speaker 1:I saw them as like this kind of yeah, it's, you said it best, um, I think last time we were visiting, but, uh, public libraries, essentially, and each of these stones is its own story. Ticholata, this book, manicure from Stone. So, thinking about this transformer stone, and they vary in size Chaytan is like as big as half of this room, essentially it's huge, which anyone listening won't be able to tell, but a massive boulder, yeah, and then t-rex is like quite a bit smaller, like, I think, around more human size, um, and their stories. Each stone has its story. A transformer stone is um from the before time, when the transformers came and were making the world right for humans to be the humans that would be. And so, in T Quillatz's case, he was caught in an argument with his wife and he was mistreating her. So he was turned to stone and then his wife's family was tasked with forever keeping care of him.
Speaker 1:And again, it's like I'm not an expert on any of these things, but my investigation into the transformer stones and understanding as, like a contemporary cuomo person who is, you know, we have like the scoop and the schools in our family uh, and looking to ways to understand my positionality, uh, as contemporary person who also has this, like you know, for all those binaries that can be attached to us, like urban or bush or whatever has some of these components all over, it's like, I guess, a form of actualization, while also better understanding the land that I'm from. And so my work especially became a point of processing and understanding, yeah, like where I rest between those areas, and it is still a sculptural practice based based on the transformer stones. I would say yeah, yeah yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Uh, I wonder if you have thought about it, even in terms of, because I know when you uh first started, you had a real big intention of doing painting. Yeah, right, yeah, so what was that movement from painting to sculpture? Uh, I don't know if you've had a chance to even reflect on that, but I find it interesting because I, you know, I know a little bit about that process of your uh application and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think because I had painted before. My previous paintings had been of, uh, salish people, um, painting from photographs. So I I mean, I don't think it's uncommon for young indigenous painters to have this idea of like taking it back in painting. Yeah, um, but then I just felt like this, like the physical process of sculpture and then the way that a body interacts with sculpture. Like a body has to move to look at a sculpture. Yeah, and especially in my work, I try and have like some element of privacy. I'm not showing everything in my work, yeah, and I think that really works well with a sculptural practice. Yeah, there's things that are present but maybe not seen, and without like giving it all away, right, yeah, and I just don't know that if in my painting practice, I've gotten to that point yet yeah I think I think my painting practice might be um for something else.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure what yet, but I I feel like it's.
Speaker 2:I'm really invested in my sculptural practice now yeah, so yeah, no, that's cool yeah, um, I wonder if any of that had to do with number one, visiting those places on the land and number two, visiting those things in the museum collections, because I remember you coming along to a few of my not exhibition but museum visits to different museums all across across, uh, well, across bc really yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I wonder like that interaction with objects and like, um, I'm thinking of the. Was the royal bc museum, yeah, where there was like a similar pattern that was on my arm and was like oh, I think that's actually when I was like oh okay, I'll do my masters now, but um, yeah, like it's just such a different interaction and journey, like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my painting feels completely different yeah and like even what type of painting I attempted, some like sketches and oil paints in my head. I was like this is a whole different world and, yeah, I kind of know if it's for me yet. But, um, yeah, this just is having this form and like, yeah, maybe it is like that as an object, right, like it's art and it's an object, uh. And it makes me think of the recent visit to uh museum of vancouver, where we found all those stones and stone objects and this kind of like pre uh, like raw, unfinished stone. That kind of looked like one of my sculptures and I was like, oh, I wanted to go in there. Look at rocks right away, right.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I knew that's where I'd find you but no, I think it's uh.
Speaker 2:I loved, uh, how you articulated that part of the thing that you enjoy about sculpture is the embodiment of it and the embodiment of the viewer. Like the viewer has to move to experience this object right, which is really interesting, and that's one of the reasons why I thought about it in terms of, like you being on the land, you know, because that was the experience Like you have to go somewhere to visit these stones on the land, and so you know that directly translates in my mind to your practice of making people having to move around instead of just being a static viewer of something yeah, well, this is the thing is like, our lands and territories are those specifically?
Speaker 1:they're not just any place, it's a real place that you have to go to. You have to view those places and interact with them. So it's my work. It's like maybe if you put in the extra effort, you'll see something more, or maybe you'll see that it's hidden or whatever else. It's like this, like intentional interaction, yeah, and like same with like being intentional and research on the land. It's like going there with the intention of reviewing or re-seeing yeah and not review, but like re-view right yeah yeah, this like different way of seeing, and how long it takes us to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how many times you've been somewhere and you still see something new. Yeah, like that kind of, I guess, process or practice. Yeah, but being embodied and doing it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I would say it also reminds me of some of my own experience as well, as like visiting some pictograph sites, when you have actually like a written description like here look here for this pictograph and then you're there and you're like what the fuck? Like I can't see this thing. And then you're like, okay, well, I know there's more up there and I can see them. So you go visit those pictographs and then next time you come it's like just as clear as you sitting there, you're just like what.
Speaker 1:How did I miss that last time?
Speaker 2:because it's the same path, it's the same trail, but just, for whatever reason, it didn't want to reveal itself to you.
Speaker 1:Different time of day, yeah, different time of day.
Speaker 2:Whatever it was, it was just yeah, just kind of that interesting reality uh. But yeah, no, I think it's one of those uh interesting things about doing some of that uh reviewing, you know, viewing of those things again yeah, well, it's like a difference.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's like timeline or temporality or something, but like, yeah, being in those places with intention and like making like the effort or or whatever else, like if you can also like and having access to wheels, and you know it's like it's a, it's a culmination of different things. But you know it's like just this you don't know who you're going to be when you get there, either like, uh, what you've been up to or what emotional state you're in, or whatever else. It's like there's always something new to be seen, I think, and it makes the process, like the research process, feel like quite a bit longer, but it's also like quite a bit more intentional. So, yeah, I think that makes it.
Speaker 2:It like that's what makes it, yeah so what was your experience when you went into the royal bc? You know uh, because I know sometimes those spaces are challenging in a variety of ways, yeah, um, and but also exciting and invigorating. Yeah, I just would like to hear uh kind of what that experience was like yeah.
Speaker 1:So we went as a group. Uh, for one, I was surprised that it was like so big underground, it's like a bunker down there. It's like where are you taking us? Yeah, and then, uh, going into like the stacks with the masks and the basketry and whatever else was like really intense. Like we saw that smallpox mask. Yeah, that was like really really uh intense to view.
Speaker 1:And then, um, all the different basketry which they had like examples of contemporary basket works, like there was some like side tables, I believe a coffee table, yeah, um, and then the different like types of basket weaving, which was really exciting uh to see to see the designs that are like well, not designs, but you know what I mean the weavings that are in the, the book. Um, and then for me, yeah, like I went right to the rocks, so I was very excited, uh, just to see like the stone tools, because I have this memory of being like, um, like, um, oh, I must have been in like grade four or five and we were somewhere, it's like a, a side place, in mission where they talked about stalo. I like this is so vague but I can't, but it's like an early memory I have yeah, uh, and they talked about stalo tool making and like how they would like make a bowl traditionally, like those stone bowls, and how long that would take. I was like, oh, I want to go see like the malls and like whatever else is there. And then we found that like big stone and I was like, oh, can I look at that? And they're like, yeah, can you grab it? I was like, yeah, because it was really big and it looked like, yeah, it was like carved like a frog, yeah, uh.
Speaker 1:And we looked up the number on like the collections and they said it may have been a sinker, um, which didn't make any sense because they had examples of sinkers and they were kind of more like a donut, right, yeah, uh. And so it was like found this mysterious, like people homestone, um, and just like looked at it and like took some documentation, uh. And then, oh, and there was some other carved stones there. Yeah, that I wish I had more time, but I, you know, I had to leave a little bit earlier um, and just seeing a little, yeah, there's like some complicated relationship right where it's like oh this is all like so interesting, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then it's also like which time did you get this?
Speaker 2:where did this come from?
Speaker 1:yeah, so like going through the stacks of, like you know, form line and you are, all all these different forms. And then I also went and looked at the stuffed animals for a bit yeah, and not stuffies, but like taxidermied animals nothing wrong with that, it's just like what you got down here no, I think, um, yeah, it is always interesting too.
Speaker 2:Uh, from my own experience of, like, sometimes having to, what would you say? Um, sometimes having to, what would you say? Um, reel in your own curiosity because, honoring the reality that some of those pieces aren't from your people and some of even though you're interested in them, even still you want to view them. You know, going like ah, maybe that's not mine to look at. You know, I've been in places and they're like oh, that's a such and such mask, or that's like a medicine. Person's mask. Or that's like you know, a burial mask.
Speaker 2:Don't even show me and I'm like okay well, I'm just going to leave that, you know, because that's not mine, you know, I don't have the right to do that, and I think that is something to also explore in terms of like or share. Even that, you know, when we go into those spaces, is to honor each other's nations in the way that we view. Yes, sometimes you can't, you can't avoid the fact that you're walking by something and it's interesting. You look at it. But sometimes, when people tell you because, yeah, like I said, you know, curious, have been, oh, like that's a medicine person's mask or that's a burial mask or yeah you know a variety of other masks and then it just won't talk about yeah, and you're just like um, okay, well, I'm gonna let that be.
Speaker 2:I'll just not look in that drawer right yeah, um yeah, just honoring that. Those beings are our kin, those beings are, you know, um ancestors. I would even say that are in there, and sometimes you have to have a special relationship to visit with some of those things yeah, well, and you're like in your research, you're going to all these places constantly, right?
Speaker 1:so like you have to develop your own protocols about how you're going to be in those spaces. Yeah, big time, and that's an intensive process.
Speaker 2:It's like your day-to-day is being around those objects yeah, all the time, right, and then spending hours in there by yourself just doing the work, yeah, yeah, and some of that, you know of course, is uh, developing or even um, maintaining and using some of those protocols of cleansing and protection and all of those things, because these kin aren't inert.
Speaker 2:You know, but like it's not, it's not just a mask, it's not just a basket. Yeah, plus, you don't know, like you had mentioned that, the Context within which they were acquired. You know, you don't. Sometimes, especially when it's not our own nations, we don't know what the purpose was, or? The intention, like some of those kin you know, even for ourselves were, you know, created to take away a sickness. And so now you're like oh yeah, let me hang out you know, handle this kin.
Speaker 2:That was, you know, actually created to take away sickness, but now we're messing with it, yeah, so yeah, you just don't know.
Speaker 1:So just uh, entering into those spaces is like really important in a very, like you say, intentional way yeah and doing that with uh humility and protection yeah, it's like this idea, like not all objects are meant to be touched.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know big time like it's a very simple thing, but it's true yeah, yeah, and just because I'm curious doesn't give me the right to uh quench that curiosity. Yeah, absolutely right, and I think that's like when I think about cultural appropriation. That is the. The key thing is just because you have a desire to do it, just because you have a is just because you have a desire to do it, just because you have a curiosity, just because people want to do it, doesn't mean that it should be done. Yeah, just because you want to do it and you could do it, doesn't mean you should do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your wants are not your responsibilities. Yeah Right, yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, just an interesting thing to like navigate and think through in terms of like. Actually, this is the first time I've actually actually articulated that just because it's, yeah, just an experience of like being in those collections. And I would also say one of the interesting things when I think about the collections is like sometimes you'll just view something and you're like, oh, that's cool. But then sometimes you'll be like, okay, I have to actually visit with this kin, with this being. Yeah, it's just that sense of like and yeah, sometimes you talk to it, sometimes you just sit, yeah, just visit.
Speaker 1:It's like, yeah, an interesting experience of like that energy tells you that you just need to be there well, and that's why it's like I think it's so important that we talk about these objects publicly, yeah, and thinking about ideas of repatriation, because, uh, those objects still have relationships to people like those. Those objects are still in relationship with peoples, uh, but their whereabouts might be unknown, right, and so continuing to maintain or or whatever the individual museum's plan is for those repatriation acts or acts of repatriation, is what I should say is like an ongoing effort. That's also important and like kind of like that witnessing of the objects that are in there. Although there's so many things, it's like how could you know every single thing? Yeah, you're not like an internal archivist for just that, yeah, so it's like it's it's a ongoing process, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, for sure. No, it's just interesting because, you know, not everybody has um had access to those things, so it's always interesting to speak with somebody who has been able to visit these different places, and what that experience has been for them is pretty cool to explore yeah, yeah, yeah, it's definitely an amazing experience to be down there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, there's like could have spent all day there, right, and then just like having, uh, those people with us to help us look at everything and how there's like basketry, or like Salish basketry, salish stone tools. There's not enough time, Right. So definitely like super, super honored to be there and like thank you so much for inviting me for that, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean, that's part of the work. Right Is, yes, we have privileges, but how do we share them? Yeah, that's really what it's about is, you know, acknowledging them, but I don't think acknowledging them is enough. Yeah, it's like how do we share them? How do we help other, lift other people up? Yeah, so they can have the same privileges as we do, and that's how we all move together as we do, and that's how we all move together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm like, oh yeah, like those two dancing Salish dancing masks at the Royal BC Museum. I saw two of them there. Yeah, I don't know who they were.
Speaker 2:No, I think that was an important thing to explore and I think it's really foundational pieces, visiting those pieces in museum collections and I would also say, rebuilding relationships with those ancestral objects that people have, because I know, sometimes those baskets or those objects just become part of your reality. You know if they exist and live in your home, you know, uh, you see them every day and sometimes you lose connection with them.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, just encouraging people to continue to renew those relationships with those kin that are either in your home or in museum collections yeah, and also maybe like just the thought I'm having right now is like a baskets for using right, like it's there's a practical space for a basket which, like, of course, like our, our works are so beautiful and amazing, and not saying that, like, uh, you need to, you know, use your ancestrally handed down work or whatever else and not that I have any authority to either but yeah, uh, just like. Yeah, like, let's weave and and make more baskets for, like, their usage as well. Like that that object has a reason, yeah, uh, and using it for that or whatever other reason, like those coffee and tables, yeah, just like.
Speaker 2:But to continue those relationships, yeah, you know big time yeah, and I think that that also again, uh, there is some knowledge there that sometimes sits dormant, you know, yes, it's amazing that, uh, and I think, because there are so few basket makers, that sometimes when those baskets are made, you know, um, people don't want to use them, right, but I think that if we had a you know same, the same type of relationship with that basket as we did with, like uh, a handbag or a pair of nikes or you know, uh, whatever you know object that we buy in the contemporary world, yeah, you know, if we transfer that, oh, we're gonna pay 500 bucks for that purse or for that jacket.
Speaker 2:But then you're like, oh no, I'm gonna go transfer that wealth to our community, yeah, to support them and start using that. As you know, our everyday carry yeah, yeah, like yeah starting to reimagine what those things can look like for us in the contemporary time as, like you say, a useful, pragmatic object for our every day yeah, yeah, and not saying like yeah.
Speaker 1:I guess what I'm specifically like not saying is go grab, like those objects and use them to justify them or validate them.
Speaker 1:But just like having those relationships again to like I don't know, maybe remove that like step of like museum, like reverence for object, where it's like these were all like when you're, when you're at the museum's, like, oh, these were all used things right, like they all had a purpose. Yeah, uh, in like the waking world and um, thinking about like, uh, the like salish, like traditional hat shape, which was like a bit different. It was a basket hat, right, so that you could do multiple things with it as well as like shade yourself from the sun or whatever.
Speaker 2:So just thinking about like the function of the form or whatever else you know yeah, I think it also brings out, uh, forward another interesting reality of like a life cycle. Right, because there are baskets aren't actually maybe meant to exist forever. Yeah, so it brings up an interesting question of like what is that life cycle of that basket, and should we allow it to go back to where it needs to go?
Speaker 1:yeah, or should we traditionally like cover it in formaldehyde and, like you know, warn everyone to like wash your hands after you touch it? You know, like, which is like the opposite of like how you would interact with a basket, right, big time, yeah, so just really interesting concepts to explore and think about.
Speaker 2:you know, in a public way and not saying that I am advocating one thing or the other.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just exploring an idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And opening up a conversation for us to look at, because you know, and it's also really easy for me to say that, because I visited them- yeah right. So saying that also does uh acknowledge the privilege that I have had to visit those things, whereas you know, maybe by saying it you know that would uh not allow someone who's coming after to view them at a later time. Right, but I'm just, yeah, just bringing that forward and thinking about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's out there now, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I guess I was just wondering like you spent a good amount of time in different collections, a good amount of time in different collections and like have seen just these massive, like what would you say like amounts of like basketry and weavings that are just kind of like in these stacks. Right, yeah, and there must be like multiple museums have that. Oh, yeah, yeah, like multiple, multiple, yeah globally too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially when you think of like for us as interior, salish and specifically infrequent folks, like the uh, amount of materials that james tate sent to the world is actually mind-boggling, yeah, right, um, and yeah, there's multitudes of multitudes of baskets and, yeah, the more research you do, the more places you find out that your stuff is yeah, right, it's like okay, well, uh, american museum of natural history. You know the smithsonian? Yeah, uh, what is it? The museum of the american indian?
Speaker 1:I can't remember the exact yeah you know, like the Burke, you know all of these places that have.
Speaker 2:And then you think of the baskets that are overseas and these are actually, I would argue, probably the you know less than half of the actual baskets and or ancestral objects in the world, because we don't even get access to those private collections. Yeah, you know, I've been in people's homes, just because of some of the work that I've done as a curator, when a whole, you know, three bedroom house, every single wall is covered with an indigenous piece of art, whether that's a two or three rooms filled floor to ceiling of shelves with ancestral baskets, or you know half a totem pole, right, or whatever it is. You know, it's like we don't even know the amount of ancestral objects there in the world that are in private collections, yeah.
Speaker 1:and on like the individual level yeah, like I can also think of like houses. I've been in where they have like a whole room that is like lined with masks, or like a house that was lined with masks on like every floor, and it's like whoa, you get all of these, yeah, and they're like we won't tell you.
Speaker 2:Okay, stop asking. Yeah, yeah, no, it's pretty crazy to think about. But the other thing I think of, um, when I think about the mass also, is um, how do we document those things as a community?
Speaker 2:right, and I think of the litten fires, I think of all the disasters that come through that have destroyed you knowytton Museum, the Lytton communities basket collections and high dresses and all of those things. It's just absolutely mind-blowing to think of the devastation culturally of that, above and beyond the loss of people's homes and photographs and all of those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's just a multitude of devastation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the destruction is like unending. In that context and then within this specific context of research, it's like some of those objects can give you so much information. Yeah, and now they're just gone, yeah, it's pretty crazy. Yeah, it boggles my mind yeah, oh yeah, like driving through there. Yeah, just the amount of change that's happened from those wildfires, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, devastating.
Speaker 2:But when I actually think about just coming back to the intercom blackbird project is like creating opportunities for us to have visual sovereignty. Having opportunities to have our ancestral designs, symbols and motifs to live in the world in a new, contemporary way actually is very exciting for me Because I hear people go oh hey, is that Dion's work? Just some random-ass place. That people are you know, yeah, and for me that's not because it's about me, it's because it's about those people realizing that that is our visual language.
Speaker 1:You know, like I because for me I think I've shared with you before just in personal conversation like my goal is to have interior salish, uh, design symbols and motifs just as recognizable as, uh, you know form line, yeah, or, um, you know, woodland stuff yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and like this, this like contemporary translation of like, uh, a visual form that was like put into a traditional object, uh, made from the land, uh, and then, like I think I was saying like earlier like, and then put into this new language that is now like on like living bodies is like, really, really like amazing.
Speaker 1:You know, uh, and especially that we kind of have this, like you know, in kakafmuk tattoo community. People like are here, um, and we're all together right now and like being able to get excited with each other about our work, because I find, at least most often for me, people will look at my tattoos and they'll be like huh, they're kind of like. They like look hard, look harder and like what is that like? It's not something they've ever seen before, right, or maybe they've seen components of it in places like museums. Yeah, you know, but that's like restricted and like not coming from community, yeah, and not within a visual sovereignty, you know so yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:For me it's exciting because it's also um creating opportunities for us to tell stories yeah with our visual language. You know, and I think, yeah, I've shared before, people will probably get tired of me sharing. You know, I think the uh, you know, the fact that we can see it every single day on people is just awesome. Yeah, when you think of walking down the stacks of those museums as more people get the work done, that's what will happen in our everyday life. We'll just see those forms everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah is we'll just see those forms everywhere, yeah, yeah, but they're. They're also well, not but yeah, but like they're also like this continued genealogy, like visual genealogy. That's like ongoing, yeah, and is also like reflexive in the contemporary. I know I'm saying that word so much, but I feel like it's just poignant every time, um, that, like you know, your ancestors were using those forms thousands of years ago and you still are now, yeah, and and they're like growing organically. Right. There's not this like this does and does not count.
Speaker 2:It's like, well, let's keep it like it will be what it will, be right, yeah yeah yeah yeah, I wonder, um, when we think about, when I start to think about this idea of visual sovereignty, uh, when you think of, uh, specifically, the lower mainland in vancouver, um, there's some interesting things that happen on the land and I would say, in my own experience as an interior salish people, a person, um, you know, a lot of our visual sovereignty is actually taken up by here, and very specifically, merritt, british Columbia. The murals that are all across the city are of country musicians, right, like, so like, why aren't those murals actually, you know, populated by interior Salish design, symbols and motifs, things that speak about us as interior people instead of, you know, country musicians, you know, yeah, so it's like, how do we then start to move through gaining visual sovereignty on the land again?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's like a complicated question, especially because I'm coming from over in Vancouver, traditional Lekwemuswim, tsleil-waututh and Suquamish territories, which are all Salish. So you know, I think if I'll be blunt but also as kind as I can be, there's like a huge over-representation of formline within our territories. That also extends to um, like upriver, uh, chilliwack, which is where I'm from. Uh, and the example that I would give is that, like, our band icons are in form line, which is it is different from salish design, right, yeah, and so you know, I was teaching about this in my indigenous art history class um, just the difference of, uh, you know salish crescents and trigonals to um, ovoids, yeah, and, and how there might be some overlap. You know there's narrative structure in a lot of those forms, yeah, um, or like the designs, uh, but also recognizing that like, yeah, like this is huamoc territory and like are, like, there definitely are murals and elements that are Huamoc and I also understand that, like, vancouver is an international kind of community in this sense.
Speaker 1:But I think there is an underrepresentation of Coast Salish work or Huamoc work in that city to the extent where, like ideally to me, people that were in, say, vancouver or going upriver would know the difference between Salish form and Upper Northwest Coast form, such as form line, right, yeah, and I can see how they're close to me, they're kind of they're quite distinct, yeah, um, and the challenges of that, I think, are, like, you know, there's a there's a long and storied history of many form line artists that, like, lived in vancouver, right, yeah, uh, and it's you know, it's a beautiful form, it's internationally recognized. But if we're acknowledging the traditional territories, the peoples that we live within, then we should also recognize their visual sovereignties. So that's kind of my initial beliefs around it at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, your initial explorations of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think it's also a conversation that I think is happening internationally. You know, when I think about some of my friends in Aotearoa, you know talking about their ability to show up and have that visual sovereignty and that representation of their ancestral visual language on the landscape is essential, right, like you know, you look at every single building in those places. Those are not indigenous forms of construction yeah, right like totally so.
Speaker 2:It's like, how do we take up those spaces in the places that we come from? And I also would say, like you, we also have to. Again, this conversation just brings up the, the uh ways that we have to honor each community and culture's sovereignty. Yeah, you know, and I think about that in terms of, like, sometimes, people calling out people from another nation. It's like do you really have the right to call that person out? You know, when it comes to maybe, artwork or something, if you're not from that nation, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just an interesting thing and I don't know the answer it's just something to explore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to explore. Yeah, um, you know, in the case of like I think it is, if it that form is actually crowding out the form of that place, then I think that has to be addressed. But if we're looking at somebody who's doing a canvas and it's like, well, why would I say to a woodlands person, when I'm not woodlands, if? The woodlands folks are not messing with it. Why? What's my place in my position?
Speaker 2:because I'm not actually honoring the sovereignty of that nation to uh, what would you say, police yeah, their visual sovereignty you know, and maybe sometimes that doesn't even make sense what I'm saying, but yeah, just thinking through things in real time well then it makes me think too, like, what's your relationship to that form?
Speaker 1:so it's like, yeah, you know there's people that are not from a form line culture, yeah, that produce and make bank on it and yeah, I guess, like, thinking about my practice, I'm like I wouldn't make form line work because I don't have that relationship to it. Right, this is this is, of course, not to suggest that form line is like inferior or anything like that, but just that like I think there's opportunity right now to really uplift our like salish artists. Yeah, uh, and recognizing that like I'm not in my traditional territories, I'm in like sister territories, I guess you could say in some ways, but I recognize the same thing where it's like form lines traveled like all the way up river and then it's similar in Vancouver, while also not trying to delete any identity or anything like that that exists there.
Speaker 1:But, recognizing this, you want those people to be reflected in those land spaces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if we make the argument that we want to be visible, that transfers over into that sense of visual sovereignty and us being visible as people from the land that we're actually occupying right, yeah and so, yeah, you know not to throw shade at anyone, it's just really to explore a topic or an idea yeah yeah, no, I think.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know that concept and that idea of visual sovereignty is just such an important thing to start thinking about and looking at. And also, you know, honoring the sovereignty and integrity of each of our nations. You know to deal with the things that they need to deal with.
Speaker 1:Like what fucking business?
Speaker 2:is it of me, of mine, to start to, you know, call people out for that, when I could be focusing on lifting up my own community and protecting my own communities with design, symbols and motifs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Just a thought to put out to the world. You know, as you, as we think about starting to wind down in this conversation, is there anything that you would want to explore or anything that comes to mind in terms of any of the topics that we've covered? Skin markings, visiting collections, your own personal work yeah, any of that stuff or something maybe we haven't covered or looked at, or any questions or things you'd like to explore?
Speaker 1:I guess, like something that's been in my head a little bit, is our third session, yeah, and like, because you know, like our first two were like six or seven hours I around there, maybe longer. The first one, yeah, um, but that was like what? Two hours, yeah, and I remember like you finishing and me being like what that's it like, that's it's done. Yeah, I was like, I was like I was in for like this whole thing. You're like, no, you're done.
Speaker 1:Man, that's like, oh, just that kind of like almost that readiness to go through that experience again, yeah, and kind of like, yeah, resonating, I guess, with this kind of journey that you're talking about, and like the subjective experience of it and how, like not all pain is bad. It still hurts, but you know there's something to be grown from it, I guess. Yeah, so, no, no other than that. Yeah, just like, thank you so much, uh, for having me here and including me in this project and uh, just like so happy to have you as my mentor, uh, and to see your work and like the exciting next stages that you want to take with it and your overall vision and how it keeps growing and growing and growing. So, uh, kwas hi and thank you so much, dion yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for, uh, you know, sharing those words with me and, uh, you know, being part of the creating of that new vision, because, you know, this gathering that we've just had even today, of like envisioning what a exhibition related to this project could be, it was like pretty mind-blowing, you know, in terms of, uh, every collaborator actually had something to contribute. Yeah, in terms of like, hey, this is what I would do, this is what I see. And then it starts to be, instead of like an individual, it started to be like kind of like a collective, like, yeah, not only how do I contribute individually, but how can we all collaborate together to create
Speaker 1:something new and interesting yeah, because people started suggesting something and then like two other people like oh, and we could do this, we could do this yeah very exciting. Yeah, it's pretty cool, yeah, and so I guess uh, just to explain for people who are listening.
Speaker 2:You know we're here in merrick, uh, for thecomic Blackwork Roundup, as I said, and today I was facilitating a conversation around what could be a potential exhibition, you know, related to each person's journey on receiving that work. So we've documented with photos and video of each person's journey and so we'll have those photos, a large portrait which which is being taken, you know, while we're here. But also my question was like what would be an artistic response to the exhibition? And so we've been having that conversation here, uh, just before we started the podcast, and so there's a pretty exciting thing for people, and a lot of the folks that are in the room, you know, I would say half are, like you know, maybe trained artists or work in that art world and then a lot of them aren't people who work in the art world or have like experience, you know, with being in an exhibition.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of a cool, uh, mix of people.
Speaker 1:So it'll be cool to see where that goes, yeah, yeah, it's very exciting, yeah, and their ideas are super exciting as well yeah, I know even some of the folks who um shared the themes that they were starting to think about was actually cool and I think probably some of the ideas that were shared will probably spark something in some of these, definitely just that initial collective brainstorm.
Speaker 2:It's very exciting it's pretty cool in terms of virtual reality graphic novels.
Speaker 1:What but yeah, I thank you for your time. Virtual reality graphic novels.
Speaker 2:What? Okay, cool, but yeah, no. I thank you for your time and thank you for your contribution to the project and also to the podcast, and I look forward to seeing where your practice grows and where you develop and how things change and transform as you continue this journey.
Speaker 1:Great. Thank you so much hey everyone.
Speaker 2:Thanks for stopping by and continue this journey Great. Thank you so much. Yeah, hey, everyone, Thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed. Thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey.
Speaker 2:I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future, so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings. Better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings. Head on over next week's episode where I talk to Danny Lerman. In this episode, we talk about Danny's journey from carving to moco. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.