Transformative Marks Podcast

Celebrating Ancestry Through Tattoo Art: Joseph Houia's Path

• Dion Kaszas with Joseph Houia • Episode 39

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#039 What if the art on your skin could reconnect you with your heritage and tell a centuries-old story? Join us as we explore the powerful journey of Joseph Houia, an Indigenous tattoo artist from Aotearoa, New Zealand. Joseph's tale is one of passion, resilience, and cultural revival—starting from a simple school art project to becoming moko practitioner. He shares how Māori wood carving has deeply influenced his tattoo designs and reflects on the profound significance of moko in celebrating and preserving his heritage.

Ever wondered how traditional coil tattoo machines stack up against the sleek rotary devices of today? We dive deep into the evolution of tattoo machines, with personal stories highlighting the connection and spirit behind each piece of ink. From honoring one's lineage to reconnecting with genealogy, these tattoos are much more than skin deep—they're powerful symbols of identity. Additionally, we uncover surprising cultural similarities between Indigenous tattoo artists from around the Pacific and First Nations communities, showing how these timeless patterns and meanings transcend continents.

The episode also delves into the importance of preserving and passing on cultural traditions through moko artistry. Joseph, along with other Indigenous artists, emphasizes the need to create an archive of work to inspire future generations and help them connect with their heritage. The episode concludes with a heartfelt discussion on the role of care, compassion, and humility in tattooing, and the deep fulfillment that comes from mentoring new artists and contributing to the continuation of these beautiful traditions. Don't miss this episode—it's a testament to the power of cultural storytelling through art.

I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work. 

You can find Joe at:
Instagram @poutereinaarts

Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas

Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks

Speaker 1:

When you do moko, it's not just about the physical, it's the spiritual too that makes that moko moko. So yeah, I think we're still revival stages. Definitely hats off to those fellas. They picked it up where it was, at the strings and put it into a place where it's pumping at the moment.

Speaker 2:

The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian, Méti and Intikotmok professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Inquilacapac skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful, transformative and spiritual work.

Speaker 1:

Ko Joseph Hauia toku ingoa no Te Whanau-a-Apanui me Ngāti Porou me Te Arawa me Te Whakatohea ngā iwi. Hi, I'm Joe, and I'm from Te Whanau-a-Apanuiui Ngati Porou Te Whakatōhe and Te Arawa iwi. Those are my tribes and, yeah, excited to be here, bro, but a bit nervous at the same time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, man, no, nothing to be nervous about, I guess sometimes you know what do they say? Like public speaking is like the number one fear that people have.

Speaker 1:

Bro, that's my number one fear that people have right.

Speaker 2:

That's, that's my number one so it helps that it's just me and you here, even though people will hear it. So, yeah, what do you? How long have you been tattooing and what it was that journey to get into the work?

Speaker 1:

the journey, bro. I think you started for me when I was a bit actually started up at this school, just up here, oh, really, at Pullens Point School. I remember doing an art piece and I took it home and my mum asked me oh, did you do that?

Speaker 1:

or the teacher did that, and I was like, oh, no I drew it and she told me off because she thought I was lying and I was like, no, I drew it. So we had this big argument. She's like, no, I'm taking you to the teacher tomorrow, I'm going to sort this out. And I was like, okay, then, sweet. So we went to school in the morning. He goes, did Joseph draw this? He said, yeah, I didn't help him with anything, he just did everything, copied the picture and, yeah, it sort of started from there.

Speaker 1:

Um got into high school, bro, and um started doing a bit of moko on the hands and the fingers. Um, doing it on friends, yeah, yeah. And then I sort of sort of went off it a bit. Um started carving, yeah, um, yeah, sort of started off self-taught, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Then my uncle came along, gave me my first set of chisels, sort of guided me along the way and, yeah, bro, and then started carving and then sort of picked up, brought me a tattoo gun, started tattooing the mates and they said oh, bro, this is pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good, you should see if you can go further. So yeah, and I sort of handed my portfolio around some studios and then Julie sort of said oh, if you want to come in and have a bit of a meeting and I can mentor you, do a tawera or apprenticeship with me and see how you like it. And I was like, oh, you're sweet're sweet. So and the next day had a bit of interview and, yeah, bro, did my um, did my apprenticeship, and um, yeah, bro, haven't looked back ever since. So here I am now, yeah, three years deep, tattooing full-time.

Speaker 2:

So so you finished your apprenticeship three years ago or you started three three.

Speaker 1:

No, no, I finished my apprenticeship three years ago, so it's about four years.

Speaker 2:

But four years and then it's about a year. How long have you, uh, how long you've been carving before that?

Speaker 1:

since I was about, I'm 29 now, so about 16 oh, so quite a few years. Yeah, bro, bro, just on, like MDF, wood, sort of that cardboard, wheat bits, wood. So yeah, started mucking around there, whacking the chisels around and yeah, sort of figured it out for myself. And with a few wānanga and a few like teachers that guided me the way, yeah, sort of figured it out for myself. And yeah, bro, just upgrading, leve, upgrading, leveling up every time, making a better piece than better than the next thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah so, when you think about that, how much of that uh knowledge that you gained from the carving, how much do you think that influenced and or helped you moving into moko?

Speaker 1:

big, big influence, bro. Um, most of the moko that you see now, especially like in the fill-in patterns, um, mostly comes from whakaero. Um, that's, uh what maori wood carving. So, um, yeah, most of the patterns on the skin, um, mostly come from whakaero. Now, um, they're still ancient bits of moko still in there, yeah, but mostly stuff that you see now on our skin is mostly from whakaero. Yeah, cool yeah. So, yeah, it was heavily influenced by some of my work, is heavily influenced by in my moko, like doing manaia pau feku koruru, which is just like some of the fashion and the figures that you see on a marae or some sort of carvings here. So you'll see that in my work, yeah, but moko's grown heaps, bro, yeah, especially taking all our art forms and putting them in there now, so, like with our tāniko, like weaving and all that sort of stuff putting it in our moko now. So, yeah, it's quite diverse.

Speaker 2:

So have you ever done anything other than, or do you currently do anything other than, moko Like? Do you do flowers and word?

Speaker 1:

Do a little bit of mainstream, bro, a little bit of flowers, yeah yeah, little stuff like that. What some of the boys teach taught me in studio. It was good, bro, learning new stuff, which is cool.

Speaker 2:

It's a good balance between the both is it the goal to go full moko, or are you cool with just doing whatever the goal was to go?

Speaker 1:

full moko, or are you cool with just doing whatever? So the goal was to go full moko, bro. Um yeah, I just want to be doing moko and and for kairu yeah yeah, so but yeah, but I don't, I don't mind switching it up now and then they give you a bit of a change up, doing a name or or a flower or something yeah, I found that recently.

Speaker 2:

You know, for a while there I was just doing our ancestral patterns and the work that I wanted to do, and then I was like I had a client that I did some work for before and I was just like, ah, I want to try, you know do it again, and so I did it. I was like ah, did like a little color realism bumblebee. Yeah, I was just like ah, I kind of miss this color stuff. You know it gets quite funny.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, because with the studio that I work in Art and Body, it is a walk-in studio.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So whoever wants what we can do yeah, we usually do so. Yeah, so you sort of get fun stuff like that, like little color bits or a name or a little realism bumblebee or something like that. Yeah so, yeah, it's a bit of a change up, so it's good. Yeah, sometimes yeah.

Speaker 2:

When you. What was that experience like? What was your apprenticeship like?

Speaker 1:

So yeah, it was good, bro, I really enjoyed it. So halfway through I sort of dropped off. About a couple of months I lost my dad during my apprenticeship so so that was quite hard on me and my family, so I sort of dropped off.

Speaker 1:

but then that was sort of the the thing to push me right through yeah yeah, was doing it for him because that's where um my whakapapa maori, so my maori genealogy comes through through him, yeah, so yeah. So it was sort of just push through and yeah, head down and yeah, and get it through.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, honor that legacy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, do do it justice. So, yeah, yeah, so yeah, but it was good, bro, um and another, so it was julie and um julius. You know julius, yeah, so he was in the studio too. Um, he helped me out a bit too. So, yeah, it was good. And just learning from each artist in our shop um, the more techniques and and stuff, the way you approach tattoos and moko you can get in your in your little bag of tricks, the better.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so yeah when you, um, you know, as you're moving forward, uh, you know, do you see yourself opening your own shop or do you think you'll just stay working in a studio with somebody else?

Speaker 1:

I think the goal is very year to to open my own shop one day, or even just have a little studio off the side of my house.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, little private studio house. Yeah, a little private studio.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, especially like my son loves moko, he likes whakaero, so it's always good to have him around and having a look at what Dad's doing, especially with whakaero. He likes coming out with his own set of chisels, but they're not sharp, you've got to point them up. Yeah, he just whacks a piece of wood, so it's good to have that and just teaching them. He's only six, but just teach them. Oh, this is manaia. Yeah, this is what this is for, sort of teaching them, so just keeping them immersed in his culture and stuff like that, which is so that's the end goal. Probably have a private studio of my own in house somewhere here. Yeah, cool, cool, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Cool, cool. You know, when I think about you know it's Well from my perspective. You know, being able to sit under Julie and them, you know that's quite a quite an honor. You know, did you know who Julie was when you went into the studio? Or you just come to know who she is and what she does?

Speaker 1:

So I didn't know, sort of going in and then sort of did my research before I went in and committed going in and then sort of did my research before I went in and committed and um, looking at her, like revitalizing moko for women, yeah, was pretty, was just made me. Yeah, that's that's me. Yeah, that's what I want to do. Yeah, be under somebody like that. So, yeah, it was really cool, um, listening to her. But she also opens up to other people, like, yeah, in this sort of Wānanga space that we're in now, learn as much as you can. So, yeah, so it's been good bro to have that sort of mentor and like a kaiako, like that, if you can't get it here, go out and get it and research it and bring back what you find. So, yeah, so it's been really good bro.

Speaker 1:

And um, yeah, I guess, like with um, having a female, um kaiako it's, it's it's different to, I guess, like having the male. I've never, so I don't really know what having a male um one is like. So, yeah, it's been really good because I guess, you know, like our woman, like our Mother Earth, you know, as much as we pollute her, she always provides life and I think that's like how our wahine are and the way they monarchy us and treat us and stuff like that. So yeah, it's been good bro, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, when you started, what kind of machines were you using and what are you using now?

Speaker 1:

Bro, I was using the coil work. Yeah, never cracked the coil. Eh, straight to rotary, bro, even though Julia's not showing me, no, you need to use a coil. You need to use a coil first before you. I was like did my first tattoo? I was like never using a coil again. She's like, nah, next one you're going to use, I'm never, ever using. I think I was the last student she taught with a coil, bro, I was like, nah, I can't hack the coil. So I just moved straight to rotary. Yeah, and I think it was a cheyenne hawk pen. Yep, yeah, and I still got it today.

Speaker 2:

I still use it for shading. So, yeah, yeah, bro, yeah, what do you got?

Speaker 1:

for lining now um the bishop one. Oh yeah, the 5.0 millimeter. Yeah, the hardhatter one. Bro, push those lines in there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, cool, so yeah so what was the piece you were working on the other day here at the gathering, at the festival?

Speaker 1:

You're doing a few pieces here, a few tattoos oh, the one on the leak, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

If you're down to share, because I know some of these are personal stories to each person.

Speaker 1:

I mean I'll ask the client before we go ahead. I mean I'll ask the client before we go ahead. But yeah, it was sort of talking about his kids, his grandkids, and he's just newly a great-grandfather, so yeah, so it was pretty cool for him to add that in there too. So, just on the sides, yeah, I had a big pou coming through the middle just representing his free marae, free marae through there where he comes from here in Tauranga, and then just having his three kids on one side and then his five grandkids and then his great grandkid right at the bottom. Yeah, so it was pretty cool, bro. And then meeting up with one of my relations from back home and just doing a piece on her just to represent where we're from, yeah, and just her learning about where we're from and having all these I don't know what do you call them. We call them too, I guess, motif. Eh.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah motif.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so sort of putting all these motifs, that where we come from, and a little motif like a star, because we have like a weaving star and our whare tipuna and our I don't know what. Do you call it longhouse?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, longhouse.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, longhouse, and just putting that on her just to um, just to represent, because my uncle gave her a whakapapa, so to whip to back to, back home. So, yeah, it was good to put that on there. Yeah, yeah and um, I think the last one oh, the first one I did was a girl on her um her journey, um to to get back into her genealogy and find out where she's from. Yeah, so that was good bro. Yeah, to put her on her journey to find out where she's from and to get back into her whānau and see where she see where her marae lies and where her maunga lies, where her mountain, her river, where her people are. So, yeah, that's always good bro, that's always rewarding doing stuff like that and getting the ball rolling for people, yeah, so, yeah, that's what I walked on over the weekend, cool.

Speaker 2:

You know, I asked this to all of those who are just coming up in the work over the weekend. What was one thing that you learned?

Speaker 1:

uh, over the weekend, what was one thing that you learned, bro?

Speaker 1:

Just um, probably, with the tahitian boys and like um around our like te moana kewa group, like the pacific group, um, yeah, having a look at, like how they go mao, he, we're maori and seeing the like different resemblance, bro, that I guess we left back in hawaiiki over there, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So that's always cool, bro, when, when those sort of things come along and connections. And and another one is um, like um, with our first nation sisters, like tiff and heidi, and having and sage and having a look at their patterns and seeing us, yeah, our patterns, right in front of us, but it's theirs, yeah, and just their chin markings too, yeah, and just talking around about that and how similar it is to ours, which just blows me off the water. I'm like whoa, you're all the way at the other side of the Pacific and you've got these markings on your chin, that sort of resemble, what, what the meaning of our one is. So that's always cool, bro, seeing that sort of thing. But the one that stood out for me was probably looking at one of the First Nation sisters heads and it's got what we call like Nihotaniwa, and they call it something different, but it's a weaving pattern too. It's a weaving pattern here too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah yeah, it was the same one between um. I was working on the brother uh, curtis clersky uh on his shin. People kept coming by and they're like, oh, is that such and such?

Speaker 1:

and I was like no, no it's from back home and they're like what, like yeah, same colors and everything too, the black and the red right. Yeah, that's another one, bro, from you too, looking at your. Your like your bodysuit work, um, just looking at, like, seeing our patterns and in your work. So somewhere along the line I reckon we've split off somewhere. Yeah, just looking on like I want one of those too it looks like our stuff you know.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, that's another thing, bro. It's just looking at all our patterns and how similar in resemblance they are, yeah, and seeing how far away you guys are, but it's still the same yeah, I was talking to Q yesterday we did a podcast yesterday and how far away you guys are, but that's still the same.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I was talking to q uh yesterday. Uh, we did a podcast yesterday and, um, you were talking about it as the language of the land. Right, when you look at all of those patterns, designs, symbols, motifs, yeah, they're all the language of the land. Yeah, right, like whether it's waves, whether whether it's trees, mountains, whatever it may be.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's all those, it's all the environmental things.

Speaker 1:

Eh that living like this we don't see much anymore or sitting on the TV watching TV Our ancestors would have been outside most of the time, yeah, tv, you know, our ancestors would have been outside most of the time and having that sort of connection with the taiao, bro, like the environment and stuff like that, which I believe we sort of miss today, especially like for the younger ones. Oh, I just want to jam the game, you know, sit inside. Oh, you know, because it was like we were sitting outside the marae and I go, said to Dan, I said, oh, bro, storm's coming. He goes, how do you know? And I go, oh, the tui's playing up, bro, our tui bed's going crazy up there, you can see.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and as soon as he goes to look outside, it starts raining, the storm starts moving through it, you know, you know, yeah, just being in tune with the environment, bro, I think, yeah, yeah, so, and that's where most of our designs come from, yeah, okay yeah, when you think about um, so have you done any like, uh, what would you call them?

Speaker 2:

like western conventions?

Speaker 1:

no, no, not yet. Just this one, bro, just yeah.

Speaker 2:

This is your first convention, kind of festival, kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I think last year was my first time.

Speaker 2:

Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last year was my first time going to a convention, bro, I loved it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I don't know what Western conventions are like, so I've only had this one to base it off. Yeah, what western conventions are like? So I've only had this one to base it off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, but yeah, I'd be keen to go to more like this one, eh, where it's like more like when you come together with, like whanau and stuff.

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah you know, I think, like I said, uh, part of it for me is coming because I do work in, you know, a shop the only Indigenous person there, right and of course I get my clients and collaborators who come in and get the work done. They're really the only Indigenous folks I see while I'm at work as my clients, right and so, and then also on top of that, you know, kind of the revival work, on top of that, you know kind of the revival work, um, it's, it's always important to come to these places where we can, you know, connect and um talk about some of those more cultural aspects and share, uh, you know, share the challenges, share the joys and all those things that um not saying that non-indigenous artists don't get, but I know we definitely do yeah, I can't speak for them, but I know in my own experience that's, that's why I can't speak for any like western conventions, because I've never been, I've seen them.

Speaker 1:

They look, they look pretty cool, yeah, but um, yeah, this is the one that I enjoy probably. Yeah, just um, being around indigenous people way, um, because then you get that sort of like minded um for car or thoughts and stuff like that and that same sort of uh who are in feeling, yeah, that everybody else carries at the convention. So, yeah, I don't, I don't really know very what what a western convention is like yet, um, but yeah, who knows?

Speaker 2:

but I might have a look yeah, yeah look next year, this year yeah, yeah, the people you know, uh, other artists that I've talked to, you know sometimes it's a challenge because you know there is racism, there is all that bullshit but, I always tell those people that uh are trying to step into those spaces that you have to remember that you're not necessarily there for all of the other western artists.

Speaker 2:

You're there for the clients that will find you. Yeah, and one really cool example was what was it? 2020, maybe, or maybe 2019, I think it was 2019 we came and we were sitting there and this young lady from a young woman from back home in on the other side of the country, so in Nova Scotia, where I live now, which is not where my people are from she came in and she was here in Altarola, seen us, came in, like was like hey, you're from Turtle Island, what the hell? And so, yeah, I marked her right there, right, and so that's just a perfect example of those clients that are meant to find you will find you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, bro, yeah, and I think it's that thought of like our ancestors. Eh, just oh.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, loading it up. Yeah, loading it up up here you go.

Speaker 1:

Oh, the brother's here for a little bit of time. I'll just push you in that direction. Eh yeah, and sometimes you just do it without thinking oh, I'll go here and have a look Go check it out.

Speaker 2:

Oh true.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that was sort of like my marking that I did on the sis on was it Sunday?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, on on was it sun yesterday yeah so yeah, that was cool making those connections and stuff like that, which is always cool, yeah, yeah. So when you think about, um, you know, uh, the work that, uh, you know that happens for us. Is there any questions or things you'd like to explore? Uh, with me, you know, because I always think these things are important. Uh, you know, not for me just to grill you, and you know yeah, is there. You know anything that you'd want to have a conversation about something interests you, you know you round them around like.

Speaker 1:

So like in altiro we have different sort of carving styles um different patterns and different, different marae and different places. In new zealand is that the same for, like our native brothers and sisters, our first nation, people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it would just depend, right? The one thing to keep in mind is that I know and this is super generalizing but my own understanding of aotearoa is the Iwis and tribes are all different, similar language, but probably some dialectical differences. Yeah for sure, but kind of generally the same language throughout, correct? With very generally the same cultural experiences, with different expressions in different places. Yeah, right, well, back home in, uh, the province of British Columbia and I don't know how many times you could fit Aotearoa in the single province of British Columbia, but probably a couple of times yeah, there's 35 distinct language groups.

Speaker 2:

I believe it's 35 don't quote me anyone you can. You know, correct me in the comments if I'm wrong but around 35 distinct languages that if we met we couldn't actually talk, and so that means that each one of those have very different, uh, uh, cultural expressions. You know like it would take me if I was to drive a car. I'd have to go approximately nine hours north and then another probably nine hours west, then take a ferry about eight hours to get to where greg is at. Oh, true, right, and in between there there's a whole series of other communities and cultures and languages that are totally different from greg and mine, and so so Greg's community. I won't speak for them, but generally they have longhouses, they have other types of cultural expressions, whereas we didn't have longhouses.

Speaker 1:

Oh true.

Speaker 2:

We had in the winter.

Speaker 2:

We'd have a subterranean pit house. So you'd dig it out into the ground, put poles up and you'd crawl in from the top because it gets cold, snow and wind and all of that stuff. So to stay out of the cold and stay out of the wind we'd have to go crawl in there for the winter time, and so the rest of the springtime would come and we'd crawl up out of the sheeshkin, out of the pit house, and we'd have tulemat reed teepees, so mats that were made out of basically like, if you think of bulrushes, or like basically just reeds, that we would, you know, dry and make these big mats and we'd roll them up and then we'd put up the poles and I'd unroll those mats so we could move that, whether we were going to a berry patch or we were going to collect salmon somewhere else or we were going to collect roots, that would be mobile all throughout the harvesting time until we get to the end of winter or the start of winter, and then we go into our pit houses oh true?

Speaker 2:

hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording Season 2. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my ko-fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks.

Speaker 1:

the link is in the show notes but insane there like, um, how you have different dialects and stuff, um, that's like completely like us too. Um, each ewe, um was having a conversation with somebody and they would say, oh, we couldn't even really understand people from the east coast if we were from, yeah, and then like hapu, like our sub-tribes within sometimes would have different dialects between those, so, and different cultural things that they would do so like sometimes people up north have different to the east coast and then the west coast and then down south, it's different again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and different dialects, yeah. So yeah, it was because it was real interesting looking at the Moriori language, like down in the Chathams, and it was completely different. Yeah, and I was going wow, wow, it was crazy, yeah. So yeah, it's going wow, wow, that's crazy, yeah, um. So yeah, it's, it's sort of like that too, um here but yeah, that's interesting, bro.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so, yeah, we didn't have the. But you know, uh, we had carving, but not as what would you say, intricate, as the carving that yous have part of that, of course, is is. It fucking took a lot of time for us to collect the food we needed to get through winter. Yeah, just because the everything freezes up and dies and, yeah, right, or is very scarce, because, of course, like the animals don't travel that far. Yeah, because it's hard to get through the snow and then food is very scarce, so quite a bit different.

Speaker 2:

But you know our, so a lot of our beautiful artwork is contained on very practical and pragmatic things. So, on, our baskets are just adorned to the nines right like beautiful, beautiful basketry, and our weavers are so, uh, proficient at weaving that they could weave a cedar root basket, so made out of all of cedar and without sealing it or anything. It would hold water. That's how tight they can weave that basket right. And then you know, uh, you know, painting on rocks, painting on clothing and that type of stuff. And then a lot of that would be to communicate our spiritual helpers and some of the things we'd get from our dreams and from our fasts and all of those type of things.

Speaker 1:

Oh true, that's. An interesting thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's interesting to, uh, you know, come here and I, you know, I always kind of wonder what it's like because, you know, I've talked to mark capuya, talked to some of the, you know, uh, those first wave, second wave revivalists, and now, you know, coming to your generation, where you, a lot of that work has been done, what does it feel like when you look back and you understand the work that has gone before you, to the point where you can pick up and start just to do the work?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, even talking to Julie about having to solder your own needles, and now you can just pick up a cartridge and click it in and out, just like that. Um. But looking at those guys, bro, they did it rough, um, yeah, and the the amazing work that come out of it, yeah, and you're just like, how did you do that with, with what you had back then? Yeah, but yeah, looking at it, bro, um, yeah, that revival, yeah, I was like I didn't have any words to describe it because what came out of there was like what we're doing today. We've got it easy just to pick up a cartridge and thing, but I don't think our work is done yet.

Speaker 1:

When you look at moko or any sort of indigenous marking, I suppose it's like once you mark somebody or that thing's got an expiry stamp. Some people say, not these pictures of it. But when you do moko, it's not just about the physical, it's the spiritual too that makes it. You do moko. Um, it's not just about the physical, it's it's the spiritual too that makes it moko, moko. So, um, yeah, I think we're still revival stages. Um, definitely, um, hats off to those fellas. They picked it up where it was, at the strings yeah um, and put it into a place where it's it's.

Speaker 1:

it's pumping at the moment, yeah, but I think we're still on the revival stage, still trying to get there, yeah, so I don't know. Pri.

Speaker 2:

No, no, that's interesting. I think it's an important observation. I think, because the way that we look at it right, I guess the thing is that we compare it to where we're at right and we're like wow, like you guys are just way ahead.

Speaker 1:

You know not that it's a race.

Speaker 2:

But if you were thinking of it as a race, you know you're like 30 years ahead, whereas we're just starting that work. You know we're like maybe 10 years in right now right. So we're just starting that work. You know we're like maybe 10 years in right now right.

Speaker 2:

So we're just starting to build, and so when we look it's like, oh, but then Also to see from your perspective that, yeah, we're not done yet, I think it's exciting, right. It's exciting to think about. Well, what's the next? What do we need to do next? What can I contribute?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think it's just like picking it up where it is now and leaving it in a better space for our children, our grandchildren, and making it, like those ones did, for us, easy for it to pick up. There's more info out there now for us. I mean, there's wānanga, moko wānanga happening now. So especially in our rohe, especially in our area, there's always mokopapa going on. Yeah, even like watching a TV show where the bro Henare said you know, kids are coming home to a mokopapa wanting to get their mokopapa 16.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so it's imagine I don't know before, I don't think that would have ever happened Seeing our tāne, our men, getting their faces done. Yeah, that's I don't know before I don't think that would have ever happened. Seeing our, our tāne, our men getting their faces done, that's a big one for us to see our men getting done, because our wahine held it for so long. So it's always good to see the brothers out there getting their faces done and yeah, and making sure that it's always good to see the brothers out there getting their faces done, yeah and yeah, and making sure that it's going to be safe for everybody to do for our next generation, yeah, and I think that's like the generation coming through now, just picking it up and levelling it up for our next generation to come through. Making it not easy because everybody has to go on their journey and things, but making it it's there for you when you're ready.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's not going to be in ragged Like you said. The threads? Yeah, the threads.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, especially like looking at we were staying in one of our tohunga that used to stay there, his father and stuff like that. So he was one of the last I think one of the last practitioners around that did uhi, yeah, and looking at his mahi and stuff like that. So looking back at that, at uhi and stuff like that and some of the work that comes out of there, you're just like where do I start? If I could be quarter, one-tenth of the men that you've done there, geez, I'll be happy. So looking at Mark and Julie and all those and Derek that revived it, yeah, so like looking at Mark and Julie and all those and Derek they revived it, like if I can just be a quarter, I'll be happy, yeah, of what they've done, because that's huge on a huge scale to what we have now Just clicking in and out making it so easy.

Speaker 2:

So what are your goals, above and beyond getting maybe a private studio at some time?

Speaker 1:

I haven't really thought that far ahead, bro, for me, just doing my next piece, even for Kaido carving, always making the next piece better than the last, just always progressing Goals, yeah, to get the private studio up and running, um for um, maybe taking the young ones for um carving, stuff like that. Or even just introducing moko or patterns and stuff like that. Um, because it easy. It is easy to pick up a gun and do moko and people are good at it. But it's sort of having that confidence of what each tohu or motif means, why you're putting it in there.

Speaker 1:

And that's one of my big key things for my kaififi or my recipient is that having a look at where they're from, like the girl I did on Sunday, sending her to go back and get her iwi where she's from, to have a look, yeah, and make contact and get immersed in her journey, because I mean, I'm not the one from there. Go back there, have a look where you're from and then we can talk and then that can start your journey, because then I mean each person will have their own style, but I try and make it an aspect of the style of where they're from and the markings that they have in their tribe and so stuff like that, bro, yeah, that's the goal I want to set and making sending people on their journey coming back to me oh, I've got this, I've got this, oh, cool, we can put this together now we've got something to hold on to. You're not grabbing onto little strings. You're certain where you're from, where your mountain is, where your river is, where your people are, what your tribe is. And when you see people come back, bro, they're just a bit more energetically, they're a bit more knowing of themselves. And where they're just a bit more energetically, they're a bit more knowing of themselves and where they're from.

Speaker 1:

And like one of our whanaunga, from Te Whanau-a-Panu, he said like Brawiri, he goes. You know your mountain knows you, your awa knows you, your ancestors know you. You just it's there, but go and have a look.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Go and go and have a look and do some work, see where you're from. But yeah, I see that, bro, and I see that in people, and that's what that's what doing moko is is cool, bro, seeing people come back from where they're from and like even doing moko and like even tuimoku. People come to you from different parts of the country and you're learning too. You're like, oh, that designs this, oh, that's cool. Yeah, yeah, you're picking it up right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, what does that mean? Yeah, so it is cool. And having like, bringing the whānau in too, yeah, and they're like, oh, this means this and stuff like that, and that's what I love. Like people bringing in their ancestors, their photos and stuff like that, which is cool. Yeah, that sort of stuff is cool, bro. Yeah, that's what I like to see. And yeah, keeping it like within our tikanga, within our customs, and stuff like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah so, and I would say would say that's part of you know. You're kind of like skirting that what you had already shared, a little bit, like maybe not skirting but like making fuller the reality of the spiritual part of that work. Right, you know we could go further into that, but that's part of you know what that work is.

Speaker 1:

Yeah and yeah, that for myself, bro, and just keeping my kids immersed in Te Ao, māori and stuff like that for our next generation. And just yeah, whoever asks bro just help out, yeah, that would be me. And just yeah, whoever asks bro just help out, yeah, yeah, that would be me. But for now, yeah, just working hard, bro and making my next piece better than my next one?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I think that's important to push and to keep in mind that you haven't arrived. Yeah, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Still growing, still moving.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, still pushing forward, yeah, still growing, still moving still pushing forward.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so when do you only do moko for Maori folks, or do you do it for non-Maori folks as well?

Speaker 1:

I do do it for non-Maori people, just not our traditional facial markings or stuff like tiki. Or sometimes they come in and they go, oh, I want this and I'm like that's not yours, that's not your journey or that's not your genealogy. Most people are good, they understand, but, yeah, most generic patterns and stuff like that represent what they want in their moko. Some people call it kirituhi. I don't call it kirituhi. Kirituhi to me is body marking. Kirituhi is probably what you do before you moko, but that's just me. Some other people call it kirituhi, yeah, so yeah, kirituhi is another art form for me. Yeah, but yeah, I do do non-Māori, especially working in the mountains and getting a lot of like foreign people, yeah, but, like you say, seeing indigenous people as well, like South Americans, yeah, south American people, and they have the same designs, yeah, and they'll be like, oh, this is like this and you're like, oh, same, and you're like, oh, that's so cool.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, totally. And making those connections, eh, yeah, and having a look, and you'll be like you'll tell them too, like, oh, yeah, indigenous Southerners, oh, you know, like we've got a connection, like our kumara had to come from somewhere. It wasn't, yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because this area is like, would you say, this area is quite popular, like as a tourist destination.

Speaker 1:

Tauranga is bro. Yeah, it is quite popular with tourists, especially in the summer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it is quite popular with tourists, especially in the summer. Yeah, oh, you can get backed up with 20 ferns in the summer. Wow, yeah so. But it's like telling people oh, the fern's got its own story, let's see what you, you know, what's your story? Yeah, yeah, sit down, have a talk. Yeah, and nine times out of 10, bro, they're coming out with a piece that represents them and their family or what they do, what they have done, what they've achieved. Yeah, so it's always better than just getting some generic fern or a koru or a Maori looking kiwi. Yeah, like, kiwi's got its own story. Yeah, kiwi's got it's own story, especially like for me, looking into our old ancestral stories and stuff. You know, the Kiwi's got it's own story, how it's lost it's wings. The Fern's got it's own sort of story too. So you sort of tell these people like oh, you know, these have got their own story. Maybe it's not for you, maybe I'll put it in, maybe, if it comes to you, then yeah, um, but yeah, so yeah so what are the um?

Speaker 2:

so if I was to come to you and ask you, you know, uh, hey, I want to get this work done what are the questions that you would ask to find the pieces to help tell that person's story?

Speaker 1:

so depends what you want it to be about, bro. So like, if you want whānau or your journey, so sit down, tell me your journey, tell me, I want to know everything, what you did on your journey, what it was, what you achieved on that journey, and just explaining to them and telling them like different bits of stories that we can relate them to. Else, if it's family, what's the family good at? Are they adopted Different sort of motifs for different things in their family? So sometimes I put woman at the bottom and men at the top, just because in our creation story our women come from Mother Earth and our men are at the top, like our Sky Father.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, and just telling them it's not women have to be down the bottom and men have to be at the top, you know, but just how in our stories and the way things sit, yeah, but more or less yeah, that, bro, yeah, and I think, uh, you know it's an important, uh, it's an important discussion to have because a lot of people will come in, you know, especially people who are not familiar with, uh, indigenous ways of marking. Where you come in, hey, I want this, whereas it's like, well, no, this is actually a different process than what you're used to, and I think that it's something important to highlight so that when people go in to an indigenous artist not all indigenous artists, but a lot of artists will try to use their knowledge of ancestral patterns to tell the story of the individual and a lot of times, that is the beginning of the process of a trust relationship to say, hey, I got you right.

Speaker 2:

Because the reality is that person does not have the same knowledge that, say us, as practitioners would have, and so just stepping into that place of trust and knowing that we're going to do the best job that we can for that person, because it can be a bit daunting for people just to come in and be like, oh, you're going to scribble on my skin and then tattoo it.

Speaker 1:

And I've seen a lot of people come through and scribble on my skin and then tattoo it. And yeah, and I've seen a lot of people come through and scribble on their skin and and they don't know what it means. Um, yeah, most of most of my clients I'll tell them take a video while I'm explaining what it is. But, and another one that you get is like oh, so if he's got a kōru, does that mean it's the same meaning in my one? No, what you're going to get today is like a pact between me and you. What his koru means, that's his story. Even though it's the same koru or the same puhoru or something, it's completely different his story compared to yours. So don't think you guys are related or something.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, different at his story compared to yours, so don't think you guys are related or something, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

so, yeah, just talking about and explaining it to people, because you get it all the time, especially, um, when you get a lot of foreign people, yeah, and you're looking at like, can you, can you read it? So if I go up to somebody and ask them, does your koru mean like my mum or my son or my daughter, yeah, and just tell them, no, it could be completely different.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's less. What would you say representative like, not like? You know a word.

Speaker 1:

It's more of a symbolic representation of yeah, and that day you get marked on, that day, that's a pact between me and you what that moko means. Yeah, yeah, and some Māori people are like that. So, oh, does this design mean I'm from my iwi? I said, bro, you know, we're trying to add as much iwi stuff, of your iwi stuff in as we can. Yeah, your, your mongol party or your kuru is not going to mean the same as his one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, so yeah yeah, that's cool, that's, uh, I think that's an important thing to highlight and I really thank you for you know, sharing that with me. Uh, you know it's important to bring forward and you know, uh, I think it's also important to you know, I know you probably kind of feel like, oh, why is he asking me to come and talk when there's so many of these other?

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah, I was like oh, I'm just, I'm just a baby bro, and yeah, but I think it's important to you know, highlight, you know your insights and your voice.

Speaker 2:

You know, yes, they will change. Yes, it will become different, but it's still part of that journey. Yeah, it's still part of telling that story of where you were and where you came from. And I think, uh, you know, when I think about it, it's building an archive of the work of your people, right, your people will look at this later on. Maybe one of your children will be like, ah, there's dad. Right, maybe we'll do it in another five years. Yeah, you know, you'll be able to share more different things, right? So it's just building an archive for those who are?

Speaker 2:

coming after you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, bro, and that's yeah, like putting it in a better place. Yeah, you know, if I can contribute to influence somebody to be a moko artist and contribute to their whānau or we're iwi, then, bro, we're winning. You know, that's what I'd like to see. You know, a moko aras for every family bro, with a tauira underneath, with an apprentice underneath, and I think yeah, because then that person can go and research their family, what they have. Yeah, it's not just an iwi thing or a hapū thing or a sub-tribe thing. Yeah, it's a family thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And even, or a hapu thing or a sub tribe thing. It's a family thing and even within family, stuff gets added into, stuff happens, so new motifs and new tohu come up, bro. So, yeah, that'll be the one bro to have a look at that, because I know my whānau come to me and go, oh, what does this mean? Anāwhare, yeah, oh, this is this, yeah, this is this and that, and that's why I put it in there. Yeah, to resemble this or your firstborn grandchild, or something like that. Yeah, so I just had a cousin come over not too long ago from Aussie and I did his. He's just got his first grandchild, so I put her in there.

Speaker 1:

How stars rise and fall We've got the star pattern in our whare nui, so, and how stars rise and fall, bro, and um, how, yeah, how new things come into your life when you're navigating through hard times, yeah, and so stuff like that, bro, is, and that's what I want for moko people to have that in their their family, yeah, so for moko people to have that in their family, yeah, so, yeah, be hoping, looking forward to the future, bro, hopefully, yeah, man, yeah, if we can just influence one.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, bro Get one going, yeah, we're winning, yeah, big time. So, yeah, that's the process. Now, bro, moko, there's a big wana, moko, ora, yeah, and it's good, bro, most of us go and it's a big learning curve for us. So, yeah, especially like being what? Three years still just a little fella, yeah, working amongst you guys in the weekend, bro, I'm just a little fella, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but you're contributing. You know, and I would say you know in the way that you hold yourself and the way that you do the work. You know I think that's important. You know the way that you navigate the space as well, the way you hold the space and the way that you care. You know the care and compassion that you have for everyone. I think you know that's important to have there that you have for everyone.

Speaker 2:

I think you know that's important to have there and it's important for you know, the questions that you ask, those are all important because sometimes those questions you ask us when we're just hanging out, right, sometimes that will spark something and it's like oh, I never really thought of that question, right, and so that helps us to generate new knowledge, right, if we're all just old farts sitting around telling the same old stories right, we don't have a new thing to think about, a new thing to consider.

Speaker 2:

So it's important. You know that contribution is important and I will also say, you know, part of the part of you know, what I see in you is like just what I said the way that you hold yourself and the way that you hold the space and the way that you care for people. You know, I I hold you up and I commend you in the way that you uh do that and the way that you uh hold the space for people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I just, I just try to keep humble bro.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But no, thank you, my bro. And yeah, I think that's like in our traditional moko story too. You know, when Mataora got his face done, there was all that care. Some say he died. And that's where, so, our care and our compassion come from, for like our kaififi as well, and that's why we always karakia, before and after, just to pull them through, give thanks to our tools and give thanks to our atua and the ones that have passed on that have pushed us towards this sort of mahi and gone through the hard yards, so yeah, and the ones that sort of mahi and gone through the hard yards, so yeah, and the ones that sort of have Not revived but Held on to our strings Before us. And it goes to like our Recipients too, because some of them are gone now. So, so, yeah, so that's what our thing is for you, so yeah, bro cool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, I thank you. Thank you a lot to come and hang out with me and bullshit around a little bit bro.

Speaker 1:

I was getting into something deep when you said, oh, we're just going to bullshit around. I was like, fuck, we're going to get deep in there, which is good, bro. I like that sort of stuff, and I think over this weekend and I think like I think that's where all the stuff sort of gets out in the open and all the hard questions gets out is when we're all together Just bullshitting around at the table eh.

Speaker 1:

Like the other night and just talking about how our wahine held on to our moko for a bit and well, for a lot, um, yeah, and stuff like that.

Speaker 2:

Bro, that's where the where the real learning and wananga is happening is, when everybody's bullshitting around and talking and yeah yeah, that's part of the why I wanted to do this, right, you know, I always feel like, uh, what would you say? Like a great privilege, you know, to be sitting in a lot of the circles that I sit in and having the conversations that I have, and sometimes, you know, I'm always like, oh, so-and-so said this, but you know, it'd be great for people to hear you come from the mouth of the person who said it, because I, you know, I hear have lots of amazing conversations and I hear a lot of important stuff, and so it's just for me important to be able to share that out into the world, because really there's nobody having these conversations publicly with everyone.

Speaker 2:

You know in the way that we're having them, and so as we add all of our voices together, it'll become a pretty cool, like I say, an archive of the revival of all of our marking and not only that, but the what would you say the weaving together of our communities and our cultures for the future and um, just letting us be heard because we've been suppressed for ages.

Speaker 1:

Hey brother, yeah, um, you know, just looking at our backgrounds and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's good to get out there, bro, because some people never, ever hear this stuff and they go looking and looking but they never find. And that's what I don't want to happen with moko, is people looking and looking, they can't find and they give up. They give up trying to look, and that's what I was having a conversation today. I was sitting with one of the boys Bro, don't give up, don't give up, keep going bro. Yeah, keep going, keep going, you'll get there bro.

Speaker 2:

You'll get there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, big time, Because I guess I think you run into times like that today.

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, but keep going yeah, keep going right here. Yeah, so you were cool yeah, brother yeah, I appreciate you sitting down with me and uh hanging out and I look forward to the next time.

Speaker 1:

You know, I know uh next time maybe you'll have a few more yeah, a few more little gems to put into the pile.

Speaker 2:

And you know, I would say, I guess I would just repeat back to you and also to remind you that just keep going. Sometimes that shit gets hard too right, and we need to hear that too. I always reach out to my brothers and I go, hey, just thinking of you, just letting you know, so yeah just letting you know. I always reach out to my brothers and I go hey, just thinking of, yeah, you know, just letting you know. So, yeah, just letting you know, thinking of yeah, and uh, you know I always uh enjoy your company and I look forward to seeing you.

Speaker 1:

You know, I was like oh, I have to go see those guys right, yeah, last time I was the apprentice when you came in. Yeah, it was kind of cool to uh.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's kind of cool to mention too. When I first met you, you were even a younger one.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because it's kind of crazy that it's like that's three years ago. Yeah, yeah, when I was here it was three years ago. Yeah, it was three years.

Speaker 1:

I think I was just coming to the end of my apprenticeship. Yeah, I think you were yeah, and I was like just seeing that that bro and then doing the mahi and then getting to where I am now, I was like it's actually pretty quick, yeah, it's actually really quick. So, yeah, but that was cool, bro, seeing you last time I was only an apprentice. Now mahi beside you, fellas, yeah, that's cool must feel good and a little bit daunting at the same time.

Speaker 2:

I think those things go together.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know especially you knocking out that calf piece, bro. I was going, whoa, that's massive, and I was like walk around, came back and it's like an hour. It's almost that's all I've done shit.

Speaker 2:

Bye, cool man yeah, I think we're all wrapped up, stoked to have you on the Transformer Marks podcast and I look forward to next time. Yeah, bro, hey, everyone. Thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.

Speaker 2:

Heading over to next week's episode, where I talk to Megan Sams In this episode we talk about Megan's journey of receiving an Intlacatmuk back piece and the journey to becoming a practitioner. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with.