Transformative Marks Podcast
A podcast that journeys through the world of Indigenous tattooing, amplifying the voices of ancestral skin markers, Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and those who wear the marks. Through a mix of interviews and solo shows, Dion Kaszas brings you the entertaining, challenging, and transformative stories behind every dot, line, and stitch. Embedded in each mark is a unique story that brings forward the reality of contemporary Indigenous peoples living a contemporary existence. Our Indigenous ancestors' struggle, pain, tears, resistance, and resilience are celebrated, honored, respected, and embedded underneath our skin. This podcast explores the stories, truths, and histories essential to us as Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners, and ancestral skin markers. These stories bring forward our ancestral visual languages and cultures' power, brilliance, and beauty. So that those coming after us are reminded of how amazing we are.
Dion and the Transformative Marks Podcast acknowledge the support of:
The Canada Council for the Arts
Transformative Marks Podcast
Transformative Ink: Inclusive Tattoo Practices and Empowering Personal Identity with Nathaniel Hartley
#037 Join us for an enlightening conversation with my first non-Indigenous guest, Nathaniel Hartley, we explore unique perspectives on the transformative power of tattooing. Nathaniel opens up about his journey into the world of tattooing, addressing his initial apprehensions about safety in traditional tattoo shops and the crucial importance of creating inclusive and welcoming environments for marginalized communities. Our conversation explores the deep connection formed between artist and client through the art of tattooing, underscoring the necessity of consent, respect, and the reclamation of one's body and identity.
Our discussion takes a thoughtful turn as we navigate the complexities of using gender-inclusive language in tattooing. Discover practical strategies for referring to body parts in a non-gendered way, and the significance of authenticity when it comes to supporting marginalized communities, steering clear of "pinkwashing." We share tips on how to recognize genuine inclusivity and conduct thorough research before engaging with service providers. This chapter also highlights the vital need to honor personal and cultural boundaries to foster a better understanding of our shared humanity.
The episode wraps up with reflections on the joy of artistic expression and the impact of tattoos, both as personal transformations and as permanent art. We celebrate the individuality and unique stories of clients, ranging from military personnel to members of queer communities, that enrich the tattooing experience. Through firsthand encounters, we illustrate how one-on-one connections can enhance empathy and contribute to collective progress. Whether it’s for meaningful representation or simply for aesthetic pleasure, this episode sheds light on the profound ways tattoos can resonate long after the ink has dried.
I hope you have enjoyed this episode, and I am excited to travel the world of Indigenous tattooing with you as we visit with friends and colleagues from across the globe doing the work.
You can find Nate at:
Instagram @nate.hartley.tattoos
Check out my tattoo work at:
https://www.consumedbyink.com
Instagram @dionkaszas
Buy me a Coffee at:
https://ko-fi.com/transformativemarks
I acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts
I feel like being a tattoo artist has made me a better person because of all these people who I've met, who I would have otherwise, not whether or not they know that I'm trans, or come to me because I'm a safe space or because they just like my work.
Speaker 2:The Transformative Marks podcast explores how Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers transform this world for the better, dot by dot, line by line and stitch by stitch. My name is Dion Kazas. I'm a Hungarian Méti and Intikamuk professional tattoo artist and ancestral skin marker. I started the work of reviving my ancestral Intikamuk skin marking practice over a decade ago. I've helped, supported and trained practitioners and tattoo artists here on Turtle Island. In this podcast, I sit down with Indigenous tattoo artists, cultural tattoo practitioners and ancestral skin markers from across the globe, bringing you behind the scenes of this powerful transformative and spiritual work.
Speaker 1:Awesome. My name's Nathaniel Hartley, nate Hartley. I'm a tattoo artist and I identify as a transgender man, and I've identified as so since around 2009. And I find that my identity and who I am definitely lends itself to tattooing in a lot of ways of reclaiming the body and being able to change your body into something that you know you see more fit to a means of expression. Really, I've been tattooing for about six years now and I practice out of Halifax, nova Scotia.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So what was that journey for you to getting into? You know, of course, the typical question of how did you get into tattooing?
Speaker 1:you know, Right, I knew I wanted to do something with art. I had graduated high school in 2011 and had kind of spent some time just working and traveling around doing some other things and then decided that I really did want to do something with art. I thought I'd give it a shot because, you know, graduating from high school, everyone says do something that's going to make you money, not make you happy and luckily I found something that did both.
Speaker 1:So I was studying graphic design at the New Brunswick College of Craft and Design, realized very quickly that graphic design anything computer like that is really not for me. I really prefer the you know, know, tangible, and working with people as opposed to on a computer and working with corporations. More or less so. A friend of mine who was also doing the same program, zach leblanc. He ended up getting into tattooing and he needed someone to practice on during his apprenticeship at a shop. So I got my first tattoo and right away thought, oh, this is really cool, I really love the process. I really love, you know, the intimacy of being able to, you know, share your body and you know desires, likes, dislikes, and get you know a piece of art from someone who's also sharing a large part of themselves with you. So, yeah, luckily the shop that he was working at ended up having a space and I ended up getting an apprenticeship there not too long afterwards and have been doing it since then.
Speaker 2:Awesome, yeah. Yeah, you shared something really important. I think, just kind of a thread I always like to call them little threads that we can pull on, and that is the idea of you said. Sharing your body was the phrase you use, and so the way that I interpret that is, as a practitioner, as a tattoo artist, one of the things that we do, of course, is touch people, you know, and I would say, you know, in an intimate way, but not, you know, in erotic way. So it's an important distinction there. But the other thing I would say is that that's one of the things I think that's missing in our society is this idea of, like, safe touch between plutonic relationships, right, right, and you know, it's kind of like probably one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you as well is kind of the idea of creating safer spaces. Right, just because we both serve distinctive communities that when people come to us, a lot of times it's because of who we are, right. Right, of course, because we're dope artists.
Speaker 1:But the fact that we're safe people and we're assumed to be safe people because of who we are in a large way and what we vocally stand for, especially on social media platforms and our work in general work on our walls. That's a really interesting point, though, about the touch thing, because, as a trans person, over the years I've gotten more comfortable with my body. But a large reason why I think I didn't start getting tattooed sooner I got my first around 23, 22, 23, was, I believe I was intimidated by shops and going into a space and being perceived and touched by someone who I didn't know if they were a safe or accepting person. So I think making those spaces in the tattoo world in any space, but especially in the tattoo world is exceptionally important. And you know, sometimes I hear people say that you know I didn't feel comfortable getting tattooed and then my friend got tattooed by you and you know you're trans and queer and you made them feel safe and welcomed.
Speaker 1:Or you know people with disabilities as well. I find that that kind of that works its way into it as well, because that's another vulnerable population where they're coming and trusting you to be respectful with, with their bodies and with their, you know, with their mental, mental capacity as well, because it's all well and good to be gentle with someone, but if I'm here saying things that are unsafe, then that. But the idea around touch and tattooing is a very interesting thing that I don't think is talked about. A ton.
Speaker 1:A lot of conversations about consent and explaining what you're doing to people. Yeah, um, especially if it's, you know, one of their first tattoos, or a tattoo in a vulnerable place is, you know, exceptionally important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, and I, you know, I guess the reason I key in on that idea of touch is because, like, uh, you know my practice, a lot of it is as a spiritual practice, right, and so when I think about that, I think about how do we, well, how do I ensure that that experience and the touch is, you know, rooted, of course, in consent, but also in a way that makes the person you know feel good as opposed to scared, right, right. And so I think, yeah, it's important just to highlight, you know, some of those things, because a lot of us are, you know what would you say lonely. We don't get a chance to, like, connect with people, right, but then it's also on top of that, of course, you're visiting with someone, but then you're also touching them. So, to take that extra step of ensuring that, you know, uh, all of the processes and the protocols that you have ensure that that person uh feels, you know, just the same, if not better, when they leave, right as to, uh, as opposed to leave, you know, feeling worse.
Speaker 1:You know, of course, you're gonna feel like oh shit, I just got attacked by a needle, but you want to make sure that you're not uh making feel people attacked in any other exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and I mean I find too, with what we're doing, it's sometimes easy to forget that we're not drawing on a piece of paper, we're drawing on a human being, right, and sometimes, yeah, you know, you get into a conversation with this person and you're kind of, you know, just doing your thing and you're gonna take a little bit of a step back and check in with yourself and check in with them. Are you comfortable? Am I comfortable? Are we, you know? Am I leaning on you in any uncomfortable ways? The way I'm wiping, would you prefer wetter dry? You know all these, all these sort of things.
Speaker 1:It is kind of like having a conversation about, like, consensual sex, in a way like you know what works for you, what doesn't, what do you, what do you like, what you know. And obviously, with our job, there's some things that aren't going to feel great. We still got to poke you with a needle to get you know the thing done, um, but there's, you know, a plethora of ways that you can ease someone into it. Or you know you using Bactine in your bottles, as you're doing Black Oats, just because you know it's going to be a rough thing. Might as well do the you know prevention of making it worse and allow that person more comfort, as opposed to you know, sit down, suck it up, earn your tattoo, which is not a mentality that I believe in, really, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think the other thing I think about when I think about consent is the idea of continued consent. Right and so. Just because it was okay when we started doesn't mean they're still feeling okay, right. And so I always, in my initial email, which I try to send out a week before, I also say you know, like Right, right to like say I'm not cool. Yeah, right, like that is acceptable. Yes, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, I just think that's an important uh conversation to engage with and bring forward and put out there because, yeah, like you said, not many people are really talking about it no, no, not many people are talking about it and it's something that you know, clients, I think also also there's not really any bad side manner tattoo etiquette in terms of making your client feel comfortable. There's not a standards of care like nurses have, or a training class where you go in and somebody pats you on the back and says, yeah, you got 95 out of 100 on bad side manner. So, yeah, really checking in. You know bedside manner. So, yeah, really checking in.
Speaker 1:And the idea of consent, that you know that that is consent, the idea that it's not a yes or no, it's, it's always a moving target of you know what works for you, what doesn't. You need a five minute break? Do you need a 10 minute break? Do you need a snack? Do you need to call it quits for today? You know, um, and, like you said, all those things are acceptable and people have been, you know. You know clients of mine, clients of yours, I'm sure, have shared, you know, stories where they felt like they can't say no, they can't stop, they have to. You know, continue going, push through, push through. They're made to feel, you know, like they've inconvenienced the artist by needing to stop. And yeah, I mean we're. We're poking someone with a needle like it's.
Speaker 1:You know whether or not it's, it's fucking painful, whether or not it's in like the easiest place to get tattooed or the hardest place to get tattooed. It's. It's a process for your body and you know sometimes you got to really listen to your body because when your body's telling you, no, we got to stop this, you know you. Sometimes you got to really listen to your body because when your body is telling you, no, we got to stop this, you know you're going to feel like shit if you push through that and you're not going to heal super well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And I would say, you know, just because I do a lot of big work, it's actually my responsibility to ensure that that person is doing okay. Because they come in with that mentality that I'm going to push Right, because they come in with that mentality that I'm going to push Right. And I also say that in that kind of consent, uniform consent email that I send out is like I will push you, but of course you know it's I always call it challenge by choice, Right?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But the reality is is a lot of times people push and I'm like, okay, I think we have it for today, and they like, no, no, I think I you know.
Speaker 1:I probably got another hour.
Speaker 2:I'm like no, no, we're done for today and then you know, every time, like 10 minutes later, they're like holy fuck. Like you know, you just can tell yeah you just tell when people have had enough and their body's starting to react in a certain way. Um, and so that's really your responsibility as a um, as a artist, to a tattoo artist, a professional to know when someone needs to stop and when they're, you know, pushing themselves.
Speaker 1:For I mean, it's such a unique, strange experience getting tattooed. It's not something people typically do every day, but it's something we do every day. So, you know, we see when somebody's starting to get yeah, to that point you kind of see it in their face sometimes, or sometimes the skin even starts to just react different, right, and once you get to that point, it's like there's there's a lot of cues that are telling me that yeah, no, let's, let's call it a day.
Speaker 2:Let's call it a day here yeah, you're good.
Speaker 1:There's no, no point to you know yeah it can make you come back to it.
Speaker 2:We can come back.
Speaker 1:It has to be done exactly, it's not gonna fade in the you know it's it's there, it's gonna yeah and I mean I get it. It's. It's nice to finish a piece and have it done, but you know it's there's. There's no shame in yeah calling it.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure yeah, yeah, you know, um, as you know, we've talked about this before and kind of chatted about it just before we've begun this interview. But I'm just thinking about, you know, the different communities that each of us serve and you know a lot of the similarities in terms of the marginalization and all of those things, and all of those things when you think about that, what are the things that you endeavor to do to make the space that you're working in safer? What are those things, when you think about it, for your community that is important to have present?
Speaker 1:A big thing is language. Language is a very assumptive thing, heyive thing, like you know. Hey guys, hi, ma'am, hi sir, you know a very gender assuming thing, and that goes for you know, body parts as well. Like you know, I try to refer to body parts as very gender neutral things. You know which for the most part, arms legs, fine, but there's. You know, for the most part, arms legs fine, but there's, you know, once you start getting to the torso, like sternum, chest, like I try not to gender those terms, or try to. You know which is kind of funny because you just kind of default to like the male terms, so like chest instead of breast. But yeah, you know, everybody has a chest, not everyone has breasts. So if we say chest, then it kind of just helps to yeah, not say, you know, not to call it something that somebody has that they don't necessarily want. So really, yeah, language is a big one.
Speaker 1:Pronouns and just, you know, understanding, very neutral ways of communicating with someone until you can, you know, discuss or figure out what makes them more comfortable, um, and also just having that space for if I need to be corrected, you know if somebody's name has changed since the last appointment or yeah, um. So, yeah, I guess language is definitely a big one. Um, from you know the second, they come in and fill out the form and have to specify their name and this and that. And then back to the conversation about touch just making sure that you're touching them in a way that's comfortable and, again, in a way that you're not, you know, super gendering um, body parts or clothing. So you know, I'm gonna move this strap out of the way, as opposed to I'm gonna move your, your bra or your binder, you know, um, yeah, just just not bringing attention to things that could cause, um, I guess, worry or the feeling of being unsafe is probably the biggest way to kind of support that community and the way that I feel that that community is most likely not supported, just in terms of, you know, we're so used to our set of language that we use and you know what things are and what indicators are, but of course, that's being broken down over and over and over and has been throughout history.
Speaker 1:And then I mean, it's also as simple, as you know, having just like rainbow flags around. You know, symbols of, I mean, I guess, acceptance and hope, and actually you know meaning that as well, because you know how. You know you can. What's it called Pinkwashing with queer stuff? You can just slap on a rainbow.
Speaker 2:That's a new one for me.
Speaker 1:Pinkwashing, yeah, you can just slap on a queer trans flag and say, oh look, h&m's queer friendly, yet we fired X amount of queer employees or sent money to so-and-so, to politics, politicians who are against that stuff.
Speaker 1:So, uh, yeah, just just being deliberate with your language and also deliberate with, I guess, your, your symbols that you, you fill your space with in terms of um, trying to show support um, one of the ones that I've got on my wall, they're the tattooer for all bodies, the trans guy that's quite buff but still has a chest. I get a lot of comments on that one in terms of people saying that's really cool. That makes me feel really accepted in this space, whether or not they're transmasculine or trans or queer. It even goes down to any type of body discomfort People who are like, oh, I shouldn't get my stomach tattooed because you know I'm going to lose weight first and whatever. And yeah, yeah, that kind of breaks into it too. Just accepting bodies and not othering them when they're slightly different from the like you know, cis, straight, white, european, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Or like the media narrative, really.
Speaker 2:That as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which a lot of that is cis white.
Speaker 2:Yeah, two things that I wanted to highlight. You know, when I think about the conversation that we're having is number one as a you know someone who is entering into some of those spaces and these conversations, you know, I think it's important for people to have the willingness to learn right, the openness to be corrected right. Sometimes you don't know something, so be willing to be educated about it and not take it as a slight or like some type of like. People are not trying to go against you, just trying to share. And so I think that's part of, you know, being a safer person is being willing to learn Right, right, yep. And then I would say the second thing that I think is important to also tug on or pull on is the reality that you know. As you put it, what do you say? Pinkwashing?
Speaker 1:Pinkwashing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like and I think you know it happens in indigenous communities as well People calling themselves spiritual. You know, just watching a documentary on somebody who was a predator, who called themselves a medicine man, you know, so like having the awareness that just because those things are being claimed, just because those things are being put out there into the world, doesn't mean they're necessarily true, right, right. And so just for people, community members who are going out to get work done, or you know, just existing in the world is and I've said this before on this podcast is just do your research, right, you know, before you go in yes, maybe they're putting up the flag, yes, they're putting up their eagle feather or their, you know, uh, mohawk flag or solidarity flag or whatever, um, but that doesn't mean that's true, right, it's usually quite easy to figure out when it isn't true, so just do your research.
Speaker 2:Again, you know, I would say it's the same with any other tattoo artist is just do your research, have a look at their work. Um, you know, just in the sense of like, hey, does this style jive with me? Do I like the way they do their lines? Am I cool with it the way that they roll? So yeah just a few things that I thought were important to kind of like tease out of what you were talking about, Right?
Speaker 1:right, and that's a good point as well. With the no, totally lost it there. I'm not sure where I was going to end. Oh good, you know how it goes.
Speaker 2:That's the way it goes. Yeah, it was so funny when I was in New Zealand doing this podcast and those interviews. It was like, oh, my brain was just gone, man. Yeah. It was just like, yeah, I was just trying to uh, yeah, remember things. Words would drop out, and I'm just like this is the way it is sometimes it's like so many thoughts come together at once yeah um, there's nothing, yeah totally, it's like blank done.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, no, I, um, I'm really thankful for you uh, giving me a lot of insight and I would, I would say that I really hold you up in the work that you do and the way that you do it. Thank you, and I would also say I'm also thankful for the willingness that you have to like share with me. I know that in a lot of ways, you know, when you're educating somebody about something, you know that's a labor, um, so I appreciate the labor that you've, you know, offered to me as a friend and colleague to inform me about the community that you serve.
Speaker 1:I really, uh, appreciate that and, um, yeah, I'm super thankful for that friendship that we have oh yeah, and I mean I I'm very thankful to be able to talk on this podcast, especially, as you know, a member from a different community that you see similarities between, because you know, that's, I think, how we all start to learn about each other and really start to have that understanding, and also it brings like a human element to it. You know, it's so easy to see Indigenous issues or queer issues as like a political thing, but we're we're people that are living this life and need to navigate the challenges that having these, these aspects about ourselves create. You know, and you know as much as people can roll their eyes and say, oh, there's so much queer stuff. Now, you know, or this or that it's conversations that are important to happen, and they're conversations that are happening because these people are here.
Speaker 1:Is that now the news is not run by? You know, it's not just one company with a camera or you have three main companies with a camera. It's anyone who can have a cell phone or anyone who, like I mean you, can literally just have internet access at the library and still access a ton of information about this type of stuff that you, you couldn't before, um, and I also think that you know, being able to draw similarities between communities is where where that kind of um I don't want to use the word like reconciliation, but where that kind of uh, understanding and relationship relationship.
Speaker 1:That's, you know where we start to understand. Oh well, this person isn't that different than I am, even though, you know, I'm not Indigenous and my struggles and my challenges are quite different. Well, they're actually very similar in a lot of ways as well. You know, I feel like a lot of the reason why both of our communities are hated, or hated within themselves as well, because you know there's there's queers who hate other queers, because you know gay people who don't like the whole trans thing because it's too, too much. You know too crazy and trans people that get it if you're male or female identified. But you know, if you're somewhere in the middle, then you know that's, that's getting a little too. You, you know what's next, you know that kind of thing and, yeah, if we all just kind of figure out what we have in common, then it's a lot easier to understand. You know where people are coming from and why. You know why, as opposed to oh, it's different or I don't understand it.
Speaker 2:So you know yeah, I think when I think about that, uh, you know, uh, the one thing I've really been thinking a lot about is, like, how do we navigate the reality that we have, uh, community, cultural boundaries, but not allowing those cultural and community boundaries to separate us, right, right, and the way that I relate it to is the reality that we have boundaries as individuals, right, but we do.
Speaker 2:It's important to honor and create boundaries around who we are, you know, who we allow in, who we don't allow in, and so it's also like we have to, I think, start doing that in, like the community and the cultural space, so that we can, like you said, start to understand the fact that we're all human beings, right.
Speaker 2:And I think one of the challenges when I think about that phrase you know we're all humans, right I think part of that is because the colonial project was to impose a Western construction of you know God philosophy on everyone, right, right, and so we're all human beings, but we're doing this for the human race, was the phrase Okay, but really they were actually saying you know our people, right, our tribe, our community, right, we're, you know we're all the human race, but we're going to take all your shit, and it's going to benefit us, right, right, yeah, and so it's like we have to step back, maybe, from that turn of phrase and understand that we're all human beings, right, and that that is the most macro place that we can go to, right, right, but then also honoring, you know, uh, the communities, cultures that we come from right the individual as well.
Speaker 1:You know like it, it, it's, it's. That that's very true because, you know, referring to all of us as people, I think sometimes, or all of us, you know, I think sometimes, or all of us, you know, lumping us all together and saying, like you were saying, we're all human being, we're all human, we're all that can sometimes, you know, take away the importance of the communities that are struggling. So, yeah, I agree with that as well. It's important to you know, we're all things with feelings and emotions, but, you know, our individualistic places in the earth are also exceptionally meaningful, totally, yeah, yeah, not to be ignored when we're lumping everyone together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and I think that comes back to again how you were talking about and I wanted to also briefly talk about that was you know talking about, and I always phrase it as like the macro, where you're saying, like, a lot of these issues are like political issues, yeah, and a lot of people apply the political issue at the micro level, yes, right, a lot of people apply the political issue at the micro level yes, right, and so I impose all of those things upon everyone else, right, but it's really actually a higher level, philosophical conversation, right, or political conversation, which really helps to inform the way that we interact with each other, Right, but the fact that we're human beings, we have feelings, we have emotions, all of those things are actually really important to remember. Yes, that I can't always, uh, apply the macro conversation, the larger, bigger conversation, to my interaction with different people in the world.
Speaker 2:I have to accept that micro level of interacting with a human being, another person, somebody who has feelings, emotions, thoughts, their own idea of the way the world is based on their culture and their community.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I just think that's an important thing to highlight when we think about these conversations is that we meet each human being on that same level and, you know, do that one-to-one and build that relationship and, like you said, I think that's how we start to move forward together is to find those commonalities but also to honor the differences, right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know when we're doing. Well, you do a lot of work that you you're, you're looking at the larger community, but you know, in terms of what we do here, the tattoo shop, it is very individual to individual. So I feel like I feel like being a tattoo artist has made me a better person because of all these people who I've met, who I would have otherwise not whether or not they know that I'm trans or come to me because I'm a safe space or because they just like my work. Yeah, it's uh it. You know you get so many personal experiences that you can really understand people or feel like you have some sort of understanding of people as people. Yeah, as opposed to people in their, in their specific, you know, categories, boxes yeah, big time.
Speaker 2:hey there, listeners, it's Dion Kazas, your host from the transformative marks podcast, where we dive deep into the world of indigenous tattooing, ancestral skin marking and cultural tattooing. If you found value in our episodes we've made you laugh or you've learned something new consider showing your support by buying me a coffee on ko-ficom. Ko-fi is this incredibly creator-friendly platform where you can support me directly for just the cost of a cup of coffee. No subscriptions, no hidden fees, just a simple one-time gesture that goes a long way in keeping me on the air. Plus, ko-fi doesn't take a cut, so every penny goes directly into improving the podcast, from updating equipment to visiting with new guests as I go into recording season two. So if you like what you hear and you'd like to help me keep the lights on, head over to my Ko-Fi page, wwwko-ficom. Forward slash transformative marks. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one of the things I actually love about this job. You know, somebody said what do you love the most about this job? I think part of it is the people that I meet, and sometimes you only meet them for a couple of hours and you never meet them again, but the stories that they have to share. You know the connection that you get to have with that person, the learning you know, like learning about, you know people who were used to be in the military, who were snipers, and what their experience is Like, all of these different types of people, places that these people have explored ideas. You know knowledge that they have, like it's such a gift to be able to sit with those people. You know knowledge that they have. Like it's such a gift to be able to sit with those people you know and I, you know you don't always get the chance or the opportunity to share how significant and sometimes you don't even know until later you're like, oh fuck start thinking about things that were said.
Speaker 1:And yeah, and I agree, I think one of my favorite parts about the job is definitely all the people you meet and, like you said, some of these clients come back time and time and time again and then, with our career, there's always going to be a point where we finish an arm or we finish a project and then it's kind of like, oh, that's bad.
Speaker 2:It is. It's a big, it's kind of like I used to do musicals in high school.
Speaker 1:It's a big. It's kind of like I used to do musicals in high school. I was in the pit band. You'd spend basically a whole year doing these crazy this production and learning these. Sometimes we'd learn different instruments to be able to play all the parts that we needed. You'd have the people on stage. You'd start kind of remembering some of their lines, the props and everything. There's such a large thing and then you do six performances and then it's over. And tattooing is very much like that as well, because you do the thing and then it's gone, yeah, um, yeah, and and you know they leave with with an experience that you know they'll, you know, have forever, um, even if they cover it or whatever, they've still got that tattoo.
Speaker 1:They still have, you know, a permanent mark that you left, and doing that is also, you know, a big privilege and really, um, not something to take lightly yeah, big time so, yeah, yeah, it's, it's and and, and even conversations that I have with, like you know you mentioned, like the military sniper, um, I have a lot of clients that are are military or ex-military, and it's always very interesting, you know, hearing all of their perspectives on something like that, because military is something that I have definitely like kind of a preconceived knee jerk reaction right like um, you know, war, military, like there's, there's so like I don't, you know, it's like cops, you know that's another one that's so outside of my understanding in the realm.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, my like, I just I don't, you know, um, I mean, I I get it, but I also don't get that world right and and I have a lot of issues with that world and how that world is is affecting the rest of the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's really interesting to have, like you know, ex-military who will, or military that will come in, and you know, I've I've got a group of, like lesbian sailors that come in, and so it's really interesting because that's two worlds combined right this world that I don't get and then this world that I'm a part of. Yeah, and you know they'll, they'll talk about being queer and then they'll also talk about, you know, military stuff. And it's cool when you start getting the intersectionality, because then you're you know it's like, well, there's common ground here, and then there's stuff that I really don't get, but because there's that common ground, I'm able to kind of get it better, step into it, you know, feel more comfortable, feel like you know the door is unlocked and I can go in, not that it's like not a, that it's not a place to go. So that's always really cool too, having those conversations and connections with people who. There's some things that you're like, yeah, I get that. And then there's some things where I'm like I have no.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't get that at all. I don't get that at all, but cool, awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but again, it's important, when I get into those conversations I'm like, well, this is way outside of any connection that I could connect to my own life, but when I connect with them as a human being, just as an individual, just as a person, that's when I'm like, well, all that other shit really doesn't matter, right, you know, just honor the integrity of that being Right.
Speaker 2:Right, one thing that I was thinking about when I thought about this, doing this podcast with you, is, you know, when I think about the work that I do, a lot of times we talk about it as healing, as tattoo medicine. Right, we've talked about this briefly before. You know when I think about that? For us, when I thought about that in the beginning, it was about healing Indigenous people's identity, because, you know that's been stripped away from us for so long. Right, and how our ancestral marks, the tattoos that we get, you know, help us to feel more connected with who we are, right? And so when I start to talk about that, how does that connect with your own experience? And, or, you know, the community that you work with?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean immediately, I think of top surgery scars. You know, anyone who's getting chest masculinization um will typically be left with sometimes pretty gnarly scars, and I feel like a large part of healing for a lot of people who do that is getting the scars covered, because you know you went from having one visual indicator to like now another one of. You know, this is like you have a chest, so you're female, oh now you've got scars, you're, you're trans, you know. So just to be able to, to cover those and just have art, as opposed to an identity, on your body, um, and then, in general, I mean just just getting tattoos that are important to you, uh, whether you're, you're indigenous or queer or whatever and the military, you know, and getting something that's important to you or is meaningful in some way, I feel is a healing experience. In general.
Speaker 1:I find most people who get, I mean, I mean, yeah, some people come in and just get something for fun but I feel like a lot of people are getting tattoos to to symbolize something or, you know, even if it's on a very minute level, like I did a flash sheet of um beanie babies, yeah, which you know, like I was never a huge fan of beanie babies, but I was just looking at you know, uh, nostalgic things and I thought, oh, those are kind of cool and the amount of times that I've done the bear from that flash, um, and every time I get it done or every time I do it, uh, the person getting it done has some story of.
Speaker 1:You know my grandmother used to collect these for me. Or you know, I remember going to McDonald's and they had one, you know, and just these really meaningful stories for for a bear toy, right Um, same with I did some chairs, so like, uh, um, like a beach chair, like a woven one, and then one of the wooden ones and just different ones that I kind of thought of just from my life being around Nova Scotia, like the plastic one, and those were something that seemed to be really meaningful to people as well, just items that solidify a memory or a feeling, um. And funny how sometimes revisiting those, those feelings or ideas or that time of your life with a permanent tattoo can be a very healing experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's about your work and the way that you not only recreate some of those more you know traditional American, traditional motifs, right but you're also taking the idea of how those designs originally came in. You know, like the Kewpie doll right designs originally came in. You know, like the cupid doll, right? Yeah, you know. Well, when I think about the beanie babies, that's just the next generation of the cupid doll.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:So you're actually taking, uh, the way that those things manifested into what's now known as traditional. But you're just taking the concept, that macro idea of hey, we're just going to take things that are pop culture or nostalgic, right and bring them back right. Because, hey, we're just going to take things that are pop culture or nostalgic, right and bring them back right, because we know people are going to connect to them yes, it's just because you know the cupid all and that's so long ago for us that we don't realize that that's what actually they were what it was.
Speaker 2:They were just looking out into the world, seeing those things, bringing it into their work, right. So you know that's cool to. I just realized that that's some of the stuff that you're doing there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've never really thought of it that way either. So that's really cool, cause I mean a lot of you know the American traditional lady faces, lady heads were old advertisements. You know a lot of the you know pop culture stuff that people would see and then, oh, that's cool, I'm going to draw that, yeah. Yeah, I guess I do do quite a bit of that, while still keeping it based in the kind of idea of bold outline, bright colors, if possible, whip shade it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah, it's just an observation.
Speaker 2:I was like oh hey, that's really what's happening there, right.
Speaker 1:Just taking oh hey, that's really what's happening there, right like just taking stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because those are those when you when I, as I understand the history of american traditional tattooing, you know that's what they did, right, right, um. And then the other thing I was thinking also, too, that I always like to highlight as well, because a lot of times, especially in indigenous circles, we talk about healing, we talk about the spiritual aspects, uh, but we forget that just feeling good about yourself is so fucking healing it is right and so just coming to get that fun, stupid little tattoo.
Speaker 2:Sometimes is the medicine that we need it is.
Speaker 1:It is. I mean, what is that? Laughter is the best medicine, right? So so you know, you can get something super important and meaningful and that, can, you know, bloom something within you. Or else you can get like a, you know, dope-ass girl getting attacked by a tiger. Yeah, totally, and that's just because it's cool Someone's really enjoying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, I do find that's another thing about tattoos that, for me, feeling better about myself is, the more tattoos I have, the more comfortable I feel, and I don't feel like it's like covering my body to. You know, take away from like, don't look at me, look at my tattoos, don't perceive my gender perceive. You know twos. Don't look, don't perceive my gender perceive. Yeah, you know, um, but it's almost like being able to have that control over my own body, when you know, I didn't get a say of how I was born. Um, I did decide to follow my feelings and transition, um, and in the meantime, while I'm waiting for, you know, top surgery and this, and that I can do really cool things and get really cool tattoos and like, yeah, some of them have meaning, some of them, a lot of them, I can, I can draw meaning to, even if they're flash. And then there's a few of them that I'm like, oh, it just looked cool yeah, totally classic snake.
Speaker 1:No reason, just looks cool. Yeah, why not? Why not right?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I think um, part of that is also I, you know, I don't know, I guess comes from that idea of the tattoo renaissance, where you know that you know 80s, 90s, where everything had to have a meaning, and I always hear this thing. People like, oh, it has to have a meaning.
Speaker 2:I'm like looking cool is just as good a fucking meaning as any other thing, yep right, um, so I always like to honor that uh, because I always think, you know, it's important to like, uh, not build too many boxes, because I think when we build those boxes, a lot of times it uh gives the ability for people to be shamed, right, right, it's like, oh well, the experience. I did a tattoo on a woman from my community and she was like I want to get this done, but it's not really like traditional, it's more ornamental, is it okay? And I was like, fuck, like our ancestors tattooed to be beautiful, right, right, our ancestors tattooed because be beautiful, right, right, our ancestors tattooed because they wanted to attract a mate, right, just the same as we do. You know, I always say that. You know we forget that our ancestors were human beings too, right, right.
Speaker 1:Not everything was some crazy deep meaning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:You know, led us to this meaningful moment in time. You know Totally.
Speaker 2:And so honoring that, I think, is also important. Right Is like to allow that space for everybody to get the work that they need to get done and not to, you know, sequester it into one way of being and doing things.
Speaker 1:Right, I think of it too. It's kind of like I always compare it to, you know, pictures hung on a wall in a house. Why do we do that? There's no reason for us to hang art in our house. Well, you know, it makes the space ours and it claims a space. It's you know. And you know, I think about the art that hangs in my house. And yeah, there's some, you know, pictures of people that are important. And then there's, you know, photographs that I found at value village, that I have no idea who's host that is.
Speaker 1:But you know it's it's a cool photo, so. So why not like? And and I'm sure you know, deep down there's always a reason why we're we're drawn to things. But you know, you don't always have to, you don't always have to figure out why. Sometimes it can just be just experience. Just experience, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah it's like going to a beautiful sunset yeah, just experience it. Yeah right like yeah, so art's the same way, and that's one thing I also wanted to uh have a quick conversation about. Is you're, uh, you're so prolific in terms of the amount of art that you create?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, I just wonder you know when you think about the amount of work that you've created and you think about like, yeah, you just create so much. So I'm just wondering you know, when you think about the amount of work that you do, is it just because you have to stay busy? What is when you think you do? Is it just because you have to stay busy? What is when you think about that? Just like I have to create? What's that desire? What brings you to?
Speaker 1:do that. I get a lot of enjoyment out of making I also, and so I started painting as much as I do now and finishing pieces right around pandemic time. So when we did the lockdown, that was also the same time that I was diagnosed with ADHD and ended up on medication for it. So I've always had a really hard time before the diagnosis and meds putting something down and then coming back to it, horrible at it, like could not do it. Once I put something down. When I came back to it again, I just I could.
Speaker 1:I'd hate it, it's done right and you know it very obviously, would not be done. It'd be like, you know, um, and I ended up painting, like something ridiculous, like 120 paintings during the first lockdown there. Yeah, just because it was something to do. So my stepdaughter and I would just do art stuff. Well, something right, we can't go anywhere, we can't do anything. And I've just kind of kept that up, kept creating At any given time.
Speaker 1:I probably have about like five or six paintings that I'm just sifting through. Like you know, I'll do, yeah, yeah, um, and I feel like sometimes I'll make things that are, you know, really important and meaningful or kind of, you know, uh, tongue-in-cheek, kind of funny, but in an important way. And then sometimes I just like to redraw traditional classics, right, um, I mean, it's, it's kind of like if I put my time in painting, that's something that I can. Uh, you know, it's investing time in my, my, my art and my craft, and it's only gonna help with tattooing, um, and recently I've been trying hard to, like you know, actually put prices on them and get them out places because, like you said, there's so many of them that it's like I just want other people to enjoy them.
Speaker 1:Like you know, even if I'm just chucking like 25 to 40 bucks on originals, like just get them out of here and like get them to people who are going to enjoy them or you know, or get some kind of meaning out of it as well. Because that's the other funny thing is people will come in and they'll say, oh, that reminds me of my mom, or that looks like so-and-so, or that reminds me of my cat. Who X, y, z? And it's really cool that even things that don't have necessarily meaning to me, I'm not the dictator of meaning to everyone, just to myself, right? So, um, but yeah, I do, I do paint a lot. Yeah, no, that's cool, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, honestly, I just I really enjoy it.
Speaker 2:It's, you know, it's uh, I, I could spend a lot of time just just doing time just doing it, yeah, and I think part of that too, I guess, just as I'm thinking about it, part of that is also probably one of the reasons why you're able to create some of these new kind of iconic designs that people are just enjoying and loving because you are creating so much, so much, yeah Right.
Speaker 2:Whereas if you're only doing say one and it because you are creating so much, so much, yeah Right. Whereas if you were only doing say one and it took you an extended amount of time, it wouldn't allow you the ability to explore as much as that you explore just because you're like, hey, I want to do this thing because you've already done that other thing right that everybody else has done.
Speaker 2:You're like, oh, I want to try something different, right, yeah, that everybody else has done. You're like, oh, I want to try something different. So just the prolific nature of the way that you create allows you to explore so many more themes, I think.
Speaker 1:And I feel like one of the reasons why I do create so much is just I have so many ideas that are just constantly going through my head, so I don't know if it kind of just quiets down the general. Like you know, there's just so much to think about and take in and, to, you know, try to regurgitate some of that and make it into. You know, fun tattoo designs yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Fun tattoos yeah, no, I think it's cool and it's, you know, like you said, yeah, no, I think it's cool and it's, you know, like you said, I think it helps get your style and the way that you work out there and I think, yeah, it's a good lesson. You know you're booked as you want to be booked.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I think that's probably part of it is just the amount of creation that you put out into the world, right? Yeah, I just wanted to explore that just because I think it's fucking awesome, thank you. You know the amount of work that you put into it and you can tell that you genuinely love it.
Speaker 1:I do, I do and that's the thing, right, it's just, it's almost like a need to create. I feel like I would feel like something was missing if I wasn't able to do that, and I feel like I've found a lot of I don't know meaning in making things, even when they're not super meaningful pieces, just to be able to create something from start to finish. And that's a big thing too, with having years of having a really hard time of setting things down and coming back to them. The fact that I can do that now opens up a lot of possibilities in terms of sometimes I'll come back to something that I've done a year ago and I'll be able to pick it up again, whereas before that was never really a thing.
Speaker 1:And that's cool, because if you've left something for that long, your ideas about it have completely shifted. A lot of the time. It's cool to see where things end up and it's it's, it's neat to, you know, experiment with, with art in general, um, whether you're able to make it into tattoo flash or if it's something that's you know, I I'd say that most of my stuff is tattoo flash inspired. Yeah, um, even if it's, if it's done in like a physical form that would not be tattooable. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool, you know, when you think about you know the conversation that we've had, is there anything that comes to mind that you think may be important for people to hear? You know? Um, when you think about out into the tattoo world, um, is there kind of like some things that you think that are missing, that we should be talking about, that we aren't talking about?
Speaker 1:I mean, everything we've talked about in this conversation is, you know, important. Um, I I guess it depends on who it's important to. I feel like a lot of tattooers and average people don't really care about this type of stuff or don't think about this type of stuff as much, but for the people who do and there are lots of us it's exceptionally important. I mean, it kind of comes back to that idea. There's no such thing as a set bad side manner for tattoo artists. So, you know, I think about people who come into this shop and say, oh, what a lovely experience. Like all the artists were talking with each other and, you know, it seemed like a very open place, like lots of you know, very open, very loving, very, you know. And there's different shops that you know I've heard people just don't feel that same sort of vibe. It's more of a like, you know, go to the dentist, get your dental work done and leave, you know, and that's how tattooing is for some artists and some people.
Speaker 1:I do think that everyone having a little bit more of a customer service bedside manner would be excellent. I don't think everybody necessarily has the ability or compassion to do that, but I mean, in a perfect world, every tattoo artist would at least think about body. You know, the whole thing about touch is a big one that I feel like a lot of tattoo artists just do their thing and they're not really thinking about what they're like, explaining it to the person and making sure that they feel safe. So I think, just in general, you know, taking a step back from the practice and this is something you and I can do as well and just seeing oh, how could we make this more inclusive and open? You know, but also realizing well, these are the things that you do to make my clients supported and feel safe.
Speaker 1:These are the things that you do to make my clients support it and feel, feel safe. Yeah, the topic of safety I think is is the most important, as being mentally and physically safe in your environments you're in. So you know, safe touch is part of that. You know my, my wife. She had a tattoo experience where she felt as though the artist was. It was like a sternum piece and she felt very uncomfortable with how she was being touched.
Speaker 1:And you know, those stories really break my heart, you know, especially in vulnerable places and feeling as though you know your body and your being was not taken into consideration with the process. Yeah, exactly, it wasn't respected. So I think, just the conversation around respect and what that looks like to different people, like to different people, because what's respectable for you know, not to go back to military stuff, but you know, sir ma'am, you know that's respectable, that's respectful, whereas with the queer community, kind of staying away from pronouns is you know what I mean Like it's, it's. So the convoluted answers, just just considering, I guess. I guess it comes back to considering the individual in each situation and their individualistic needs, because that's going to be different for everyone. Yeah, totally, but realizing how to, and considering how to make them the most comfortable is just going to help everyone, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Big time. Yeah, when I think about that, you know, part of the reason I think about some of those things is, you know, we talk about health and safety, right, and the tattoo industry, and when we talk about that it's generally it's a bloodborne pathogens, cross-contamination sterilization, disinfection, all of those uh conversations. But I'm like, well, we got to step up, you know, we got to go that next step in terms of, well, what is safety? Uh, above and beyond, just those uh medicalized, uh distinctions, right, and so that's why I think, when I think about touch and part of it's also like observation, right, just observation, being out in the community, being out in different places where people are being tattooed, you know, being at conventions, where I'm like that doesn't look like. You know, you're like two dudes totally checking out this. Yeah, you know a person who's getting, you know, a chest tattoo, a sternum tattoo, and you're like, do you?
Speaker 1:both your dudes need to be like checking that out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah um, and then you know, uh, my own experience as well is like, hey, maybe that wasn't the best way to do that. And so then checking in with myself and going, well, why was I feeling that way? Right, right, you know. Oh, I leaned my arm there and I just didn't feel, you know, that that was the right thing. So then starting to question it, right, and so I think that that's also part of it is maybe, you know, as a tattoo artist, a cultural practitioner, maybe you've never questioned is the way that I'm doing this helping my client or my collaborator?
Speaker 2:to feel safe and secure in that place and in that space. So it's just a question to always come back to yourself and go. You know, could I have done this better?
Speaker 1:Just like you said earlier, and I think that's you know in general with tattooing and art and just treating people in the way they should. That's always a good question is how can I do better? You know, cause there's always ways to do better. And you know, it doesn't mean you failed in any way, it doesn't. It's nothing wrong that you did. It's just there's always, there's always alternative ways. There's always ways to do things better. There's always ways to do things different.
Speaker 2:I guess, better. There's always ways to do things different. I guess, yeah, yeah, big time. Um, yeah, I think this has been a good conversation, awesome. Yeah, I really, uh really appreciate you taking the time to uh chat with me and, um, you know, I always enjoy us uh being able to have these conversations really honored for you to ask. Thank you yeah, big time, you know. Uh, you're the second non-indigenous person okay on my podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh, the second, yeah, no, that's awesome but yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 2:You know I wanted to uh. You know, I originally intended the podcast just to be indigenous folks, uh, but I wanted to open it up because I think there's some other conversations that we need to be having right that allow us to uh step into different worlds, different ways of understanding and being that will help to inform what we're doing.
Speaker 2:And also to connect, and I think part of it's I'm always thinking about, well, how do I help bring other people along as well, how do I give back? And so part of giving back is highlighting people. So, yeah, that's some of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation is just, you know, the connections that we have in terms of the communities we serve and, yeah, just some conversations around gender identity, all of those things and how they relate to the practice of tattooing Right, right, and so, yeah, I think it's been a really good conversation and how they relate to the practice of tattooing Right, right, right, and so, yeah, I think it's been a really good conversation.
Speaker 1:Awesome and I appreciate you. Yeah, I appreciate you as well. Yeah, yeah, again, thank you, a real honor, really appreciate it. Cool, yeah, I think that my words are, you know, important at all. So, yeah, it's really cool to chat about things like this. For sure, and you know, that kind of comes back to the whole idea of the, you know, learning about one another and that intersection and how that builds understanding and trust within communities and people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big time, cool, awesome. Hey everyone, thanks for stopping by and taking this journey with me through this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll just ask that you would go and subscribe, if you haven't already done so and if you have subscribed, thank you very much. I appreciate you following this journey. I just want you to remember that, no matter who you are, where you're from, what you've done or what you've been through, that you are amazing, that you are loved and that we need you here today and going into the future so that we can transform this world for the better through our collective thoughts, actions, feelings and our compassion for each other as human beings.
Speaker 2:Head over to next week's episode, where I talk to Stephen Rakalma. In this episode, we talk about Stephen's journey of receiving and going through the journey of getting an Intacot McBlackwork bodysuit. Remember, every coffee helps me to bring you the content that you love. So head over to my Ko-Fi page and let's make something great together. And the last thing that I will ask you is to do me a solid and share this episode with somebody that you think will enjoy it. Thanks a lot and see you next week.