Lawyer Up: Employment Law Essentials w/ Ryan Stygar

This conversation was equal parts eye-opening and hilarious.  This week, we welcome 'The Labor Lawyer' Ryan Stygar to jam about all things employment law, workers rights and what you should to make sure you're protected. 

Listen, this episode has it all, storytelling,  actionable advice and yeah, penis jokes (hey, blame the sexual harassers). More specifically, we jam about: 

• Ryan's Journey to Becoming an Attorney
• Employment Law & Worker's Rights 101
• Current State of Worker's Rights
• The Three Things Every Employee Should Do 
• What To Do If You Have a Case
• When You Need to Call a Lawyer
• Rapid Round 

Check out more of Ryan here: 

• His Firm: Centurion Trial Attorneys 
• Podcast: Working Class 
• insta: attorneyryan 
• TikTok: attorneyryan 

Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.

Thanks for listening!

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Transcript

Ryan: 0:00

I got to tell you we handle so many sexual harassment cases. People just they're horny and it's a problem.

Francesca: 0:07

I don't know how else to say it, that's going to be the end of the trailer for this episode.

Mel: 0:26

Hi Francesca. Well, hello Mel, it's Eclipse Day. How are you feeling?

Francesca: 0:35

I'll tell you I'm feeling pretty good. You know, they talk about how everything's going to be completely crazy on Eclipse Day and your emotions will be high. I think I had that on Friday of last week. I think I'm like two days ahead of the astrological calendar for some reason. Yeah, how about you?

Mel: 0:46

That's good. I'm feeling pretty calm for eclipse day. I was expecting chaos, but I've got calm so I'll take it.

Mel: 0:52

I'll stay calm all day, every day, right, yeah, exactly. Well, friends, this is your work friends. I'm Mel hey and I am Francesca, and we're your two HR friends with no filter getting you through the work shit. Today, we want to introduce this fantastic episode Lawyering Up Essentials of Employment Law with Ryan Steiger. You might recognize him from TikTok or Instagram as the labor lawyer, and he joined us to emphasize his fight for workers' rights. Francesca, what'd you think about this?

Francesca: 1:26

This episode was equal parts eye-opening and just fricking hilarious. Ryan walked us through what you should be doing as an employee to protect yourself, what are some really typical cases that he sees and also, if you ever do need to lawyer up, how do you make sure you are in a great situation. We went into some nooks and crannies of cases which were just freaking hilarious, so I thoroughly enjoyed talking with Ryan.

Mel: 1:49

Yeah, same same. There's a red thread throughout the episode Ryan's personal story, which was a great tale about perseverance and self-worth. There's a really important message that anyone who listens to this will leave with here. It is our conversation with Ryan Steiger. Friends we have with us today. Ryan Steiger you might recognize him as the labor lawyer on a lot of social media channels like Instagram and TikTok. He's an employment lawyer who really cares about people and employee rights. He comes from Centurion Trial Attorneys. He's a podcaster too. He has a podcast called the Working Class. We highly recommend that you check that out to hear some of his great stories. We highly recommend that you check that out to hear some of his great stories. Ryan, what really drew us to you as a guest for our podcast is that ultimately, we see you as an educator and a protector of employees, and so we really appreciate you being here with us today.

Ryan: 2:58

Hey, thanks so much for having me, and what a flattering description. That's the way I think we all try to be, whether you're a workers' rights attorney like myself or one of the noble ethical HR reps that are out there just trying to do the right thing. Ultimately, our business is just trying to protect people, so thank you for having me on.

Mel: 3:15

Yeah, of course We'd love to hear your backstory. I know you've shared it online, but for some of our listeners who might not know or might not have seen you, what was your journey to becoming an employment attorney?

Ryan: 3:29

It's an unusual story and I hope it provides some comfort to anyone listening who thinks that they're on the wrong path. Maybe they're too old or they're afraid of making a change. It's never too late and you never make a mistake that can't be fixed. So my journey started really in my early 20s. I had dropped out of college at uc, santa barbara, and the reason I had dropped out was I had gone to college reluctantly in the first place. I didn't want to go to college. Being a lawyer was not on my radar. All I ever wanted to be male was a firefighter. That's the only thing I ever cared about was being a firefighter, and I was so obsessed with it that I was truly convinced that until I became a firefighter, my life just didn't matter. I was willing to sacrifice everything to get there. So I dropped out of UCSB. Fun fact when you drop out of a school, you're supposed to tell someone that you're leaving, apparently guess there's some paperwork involved that you should do.

Ryan: 4:28

Yeah, so I didn't do that, I just left you like irish to buy? Yes, yeah, and so here's the consequence of that, and it didn't bite me in the butt till about four and a half years later. I I got straight Fs that quarter because I just didn't show up. Funny thing about final exams is if you don't show up, you tend to fail. I was an idiot when I was 20 years old. Yeah.

Francesca: 4:52

So put a pin in that that came to bite me later.

Ryan: 4:59

So what had happened was that last semester, before I had dropped out, I had checked out entirely. One of the cruel ironies of living in Santa Barbara at the time was my apartment was right across the street from Santa Barbara County Fire Station 11. Every day I would see those big they're blue and white in Santa Barbara they're not red those blue and white trucks coming in and out. I thought, man, that's got to be me. I'm wasting time in college. What am I doing here? I'm wasting my life. I'm 20 years old. I'm running out of time. You always think you're so much older than you really are. So I'd started taking fire science courses online, got into an accelerated EMT program, got my EMT license, started volunteering with the San Diego County Fire Authority and as a reservist with the Valley Center Fire Protection District. I worked on an ambulance. I went to multiple trainings in fire academies, got hired with Cal Fire, and that was a four, four and a half year journey. And then 2014 was when I left.

Ryan: 5:55

So about 10 years ago is when I left the fire service, because sometime around year three of being a full-time firefighter that was how I made my money I realized I wasn't happy anymore. I realized that I had done really well in the fire service. I had a lot of fun, I enjoyed my work. I do miss it. I miss it dearly. And I was surrounded by bitter, angry, unhappy firefighters. People were there for the check and didn't care about firefighting they were. A lot of them were divorced, A lot of them were single and bitter about it. And then I was the new guy at the station, so some of them took it out on me. It was my first experience with a truly toxic, hostile work environment. Experience with a truly toxic, hostile work environment and it took some time. But it highlighted all the worst parts of firefighting the hard work, the early mornings, the time away from family and it really minimized the good parts the brotherhood, the service to community, the love of taking care of people. It just wasn't there.

Ryan: 6:58

While that was happening, I remember I went to this fire. I was walking up this hill with this captain. Captain was maybe 10 years, 15 years older than me, it's hard to say, but he wasn't that much older than me, but far ahead enough that I could see myself in him. We're hiking up this hill at a fire. The whole hike, Mel. All he did was complain about his bitch ex-wife. I'm doing air quotes right here His bitch ex-wife.

Mel: 7:23

Oh geez, Sounds lovely bitch ex -wife.

Ryan: 7:25

I'm doing air quotes right here. His bitch ex-wife oh geez, sounds lovely. Oh yeah, real happy fella, and he was just complaining about her. By the way, it was his second. He already screwed up one marriage and then he was on his way. It's just a mess. It's talking about how his kids don't appreciate him, they don't call and he pays this child support and he just couldn't wait to retire. My God, he was the most miserable man ever and he complained for maybe six hours.

Ryan: 7:44

I'm hiking up this hill on a hundred degree day. There's fire and all this guy's doing is complaining about how miserable he is. And I remember just looking at him and thinking, all right, I already started having some doubts because with fire, geographically you're limited. You can't move around a lot. It's really one job. You can do different things in the fire service, but I was just going to stay in the fire service. There wasn't as much variety. Then I had a bad station with bad dudes. I didn't have the brotherhood, I didn't have the friendship I was used to. There wasn't this joy of going and serving our community at that station. And then I'm sitting here looking at what I felt was a glimpse into my future If I didn't make a change and if you ever saw or read A Christmas Carol the Ghost of.

Ryan: 8:26

Christmas yes to Come it felt like that and I, oh my God, and I remember I got to the station and I was just like I got to make a change, I got to leave, I'm not going to be like that, captain. And I remember thinking I was so old. I was 24 and I was like I've ruined my life. I got one more shot at this, so I left. I finished my undergraduate degree, did that in about a year because I already had a bunch of credits, notwithstanding the failed semester. Now that did bite me.

Ryan: 8:51

When I went back, I was on academic probation because I was an at-risk student, because I had failed so many classes and I really had to work hard to bring my GPA up. But the dent in my GPA had consequences. I finished my undergrad, I applied to 13 law schools. I got into zero. I suspect that being on academic probation and having that dent in my GPA probably did not help.

Ryan: 9:18

When that happened, I spiraled into just depression. A mess, got an office job for a few months. I was trying to get into law schools. Nothing was working out. I took a landscaping job and I started driving for Uber to try to make ends meet. And then it wasn't until I was 27, maybe three years after I'd left the fire service long detour that one law school finally said yes, only one, only one law. To be clear to anyone who looks at me and says, oh my gosh, attorney Ryan, he's this famous lawyer, he owns a law firm, he's making all this money, he's just got it all figured out.

Ryan: 9:53

I really took a long, winding tour to get here and I bumped into a lot of dead ends and really, at 27, which many people listening at 27 may be considering law school Maybe they're thinking it's too late for you, absolutely not. At 27, I had maybe $30. Maybe I had an old Toyota Camry. I just felt like the biggest loser. I had pushed my friends away because I was so unhappy, I was lonely and finally one school said yes, and then I went to law school. I did well in law school. It really felt right right away. It was. It really felt right right away. It was one of the first experiences I had where making friends was easy.

Mel: 10:30

Yeah.

Ryan: 10:31

And that was my first sign that I was in the right place Graduated, did very well in law school. I opened my practice Centurion Trial Attorneys right when I graduated and the rest is history. Now we're 10 teammates strong at this practice. We fight for workers' rights every day. I put information out online to educate people about their rights. I only represent clients in California, but I try to make content for all 50 states because everyone deserves to know about their rights at work.

Ryan: 10:58

And yeah, that's how I got here. And I want to really emphasize how messy my road was, how many low points there were, how the complete lack of a master plan. Yeah, there was no master plan. There was just a guy who realized he was unhappy, tried making changes, failed epically over and over again until finally the stars aligned and was there some luck and some privilege involved? Absolutely, but what I share with people is if you keep pushing, there's no guarantee things are going to work out. I wish there was, but there's not. We live in the real world. But if you quit, then it's guaranteed it's not going to work out. So that's how I got here and I know it was a long story, but I hope someone is listening who's going through something similar and says you know what Attorney Ryan looks like he's doing? Okay, sounds like he went through something similar. I went through. I'll just keep pushing. I hope that's what people take away.

Mel: 11:52

I hope so too. I think it's an excellent story and it's real. I think more people have an experience like yours than not, and it doesn't get discussed enough, francesca, and I talk about this all the time, how it's bullshit that at 18, you're supposed to know what you're, what you want to do with your life, and have it all figured out, and it's unrealistic. And I appreciate the detour that you took us on because I think that's an important story to tell and I hope it inspires others yeah.

Ryan: 12:19

Yeah, it's tough going through that, especially being 18, 19, 20, heck, even at 27, which is when I got into a law school and then started at 28. I think part of what made everything so hard figuring out what I wanted to do was I didn't know who I was. I didn't know who I was. I knew things I liked doing, but I hadn't figured out, fundamentally, what is it that is important to me, about my values, about my goals, about the things that I prioritize?

Mel: 12:50

Yeah, what would you say are the core values that led you to becoming? Specifically, there's a lot of different areas that you could have went into for practice. What were the values that led you to employment law?

Ryan: 13:02

Empathy, being a working class guy who had to work very hard for my money and frankly, the money I made wasn't great Understanding that the amount of money a person earns is not at all a reflection of their value as a human being, it's not a reflection of their intelligence and it damn sure is not a reflection of how hard they work, because the hardest working people you'll ever meet get paid in peanuts. I mean so empathy, being in those people's shoes and understanding what it feels like to fight so hard to make ends meet and then some dipshit boss wants to fire you because, god forbid, you're having a kid and you need some time off to take care of that kid. God forbid, your knee gets hurt working and you need an accommodation to recover and they want to cut your hours.

Mel: 13:50

Fuck that, sorry, but you can share on this podcast. Oh, thank God, we are not.

Francesca: 13:57

We have a warning label. Oh, good yeah.

Ryan: 14:00

Yeah, empathy for sure. I think it's very hard to be a good, true workers' rights lawyer if you don't really understand what it means to be working class California that, frankly, I did not know existed. I had been told my whole life. You're in the greatest country on earth. Even the poorest in America is better off than some of the just average people in other countries. I am telling you from experience there are parts of this country where there is no material difference in quality of life between that person here in the United States and someone in where you might imagine people are so wrong about foreign countries. What you might imagine.

Ryan: 14:46

Life in Baghdad is like the violence, the uncertainty. We don't have the Taliban or Al Qaeda out here, but we have gangs, and we have gangs that visit people's homes and extract money and services from them against their will. We have a severe lack of basic resources and basic services for people. So part of what changed me was just observing those things.

Ryan: 15:08

As a firefighter I realized, look, america has potential to be the greatest country on earth, but we're not. We leave a lot of people behind and it's not because they're lazy, it's not because they're mooching off the government, it's because they got dealt a really bad hand and they were not given any viable path out of that hand. Where is this all going? This is part of why I think that pushed me into being a workers' rights lawyer, because people who go to work, they're there because they're trying to earn an honest living, they're trying to be somewhere better than they are right now, and they're doing it with their work. The very least they're entitled to is to be paid for all hours work, be paid a decent, livable wage, not get groped by your boss while you're at work, not get assaulted with racial slurs, just having some decency at work. So all of those factors together, mel and Francesca, they conspired to make me the very loudmouthed workers' right advocate. You see today, we're very glad to see it.

Francesca: 16:16

Employment law Give us the third grade definition of what the hell is it?

Ryan: 16:26

So employment law is actually a very broad umbrella and we can broadly think of it as the relationship between employers and employees. Now it breaks off into many subdivisions after that. So we start at the top, the relationship between employer and employee. The next two umbrellas in employment law it's employer side and employee side. Just roughly we can think of it this way On employer side you're going to see the big defense firms Ogletree, deacons, jackson, lewis, gordon, reese, fisher, phillips. These are all big law firms, big, huge corporate law firms that are similar to what you might see on suits. Suits is not an accurate representation of what law firms look like, but it's not yeah.

Ryan: 17:05

I know, but if but to the lay person who's thinking oh, big, fancy corporate office like those big defense firms call on that and their job is they defend those employers against lawsuits, whether they be big wage and hour class actions, discrimination claims. Basically they fight people like me. They also assist with things like compliance and labor relations. They might assist with negotiation between an employer and a union or just complying with different labor codes in different states. So that's one side. The other side is the employee side, the worker's right side, as I like to say. That's my side, okay, that's my side, okay. And our job is we make sure that the employer is treating the employee in a legal and ethical manner, paid the appropriate wages, be free from discrimination, free from harassment, free from unsafe and toxic work conditions, be compensated for injuries sustained on the job.

Ryan: 18:11

That's the side I work on, that big umbrella of employment law. It's a very big umbrella and I'm not here to say that one side is better than the other. Obviously, I'm very biased in favor of workers. I'm not a judge. It is not my job to be neutral. It is my job to stand up for the team I chose and I chose the workers' rights team. But the other side, the defense team, they do important work, they do compliance and they help. Employers ideally have good work practices. Now, unfortunately, I meet the other side in court where they are fighting me, so they feel like the bad guys most of the time and I definitely have popped off on some opposing counsels before. But anyway, those are the two big realms.

Francesca: 18:51

In addition to the folks that are your big, mega firms that are representing employers, do companies actually have internal lawyers as well?

Ryan: 18:59

Yeah, they'll have in-house and corporate counsel. Now the kinds of defense side lawyers I come up against a lot of variety. Now the big firms I see most often the ones I listed before, the big law firms I see most often. You'll also see some smaller boutique firms. Frankly, on a case-by-case basis we do defense work too. If the employer is aligned with us ethically and it's a good case, we will defend them. So smaller firms happen Occasionally. We'll go up against their internal counsel, their corporate counsel, but by the time we start filing lawsuits they refer that out to a real litigation firm. Oh, interesting.

Francesca: 19:37

Yeah.

Ryan: 19:38

Yeah, your in-house counsel, you can see, is like a general practitioner or maybe your primary care physician, and the minute things go to litigation, a lot of times they'll say, ok, I'm going to refer you out to the litigation people.

Francesca: 19:51

OK, it's been interesting sitting in HR for as long as Mel and I have been in it. Right, we've seen things like anti-sexual harassment coming out. Anti-bullying Right, you're seeing things like pay transparency coming up. Do you see it changing? Do you see this becoming more towards the workers' rights angle? Do you see this evolving? Yeah, you're shaking your head. I like tell me what the next like couple of years looks like.

Ryan: 20:12

It's so tough, francesca, it is such a mixed bag right now, and I struggle here because I don't want to be hyper-partisan, but something really funky is in the air these days. And hyper-partisan, but something really funky is in the air these days, and it may be because it's an election year, it may be because Donald is trying to come to power again. There's a lot of things going on. What has happened in the past four or five years is we are seeing very clear friction between employers and employees. Employers did not take care of their people during the COVID pandemic. They laid everyone off at the first sign of trouble. They overburdened who was left, did not give them the pay raises they need. They denied people sick leave when they got sick with COVID, they didn't treat people with any sense of dignity if a family member was sick or passed from it, and people are still bitter about it. Also, let's not forget that these companies shut offices down, sent everyone home, had them work from home, and we realized for the first time oh my God, I can get all this done here at home. I don't have to burn money and time with a commute, I don't have to take time away from my family. I can go to the doctor and take care of my health and still get all my work done. And now the employers are punishing remote employees for a decision the employer made four years ago. Mind you, they're punishing you for their choices With these return to office mandates, dell computers got into some trouble because now they're saying that you can stay remote if you want, but you won't be considered for a promotion for a promotion. And it makes you ask what's the whole point of coming to the office, when Dell's own CEO said three years ago that if you are depending on return to office mandates for office culture, you're doing something wrong. Complete 180.

Ryan: 21:53

So where does this all lead us? We have this friction between employer and employee. Because of events of the past four years, people are really reconsidering their relationship with work. Yeah, on top of that, we have a very active and very disjointed Republican Party which control about half of our state's legislatures.

Ryan: 22:15

And somehow, some way in the Trump campaign and the MAGA movement and the Republican Party, workers' rights became woke, and woke became this buzzword to galvanize voters in an election year. And so we are seeing we saw it in Georgia, we're seeing it in Florida, we saw it in Indiana, republican-controlled state legislatures stripping away workers' protections, particularly in the area of child labor. Why are we making it so? 14, 15, 16-year-olds can be required to work with dangerous machines, required to work overtime, required to work during school hours. So please pressure your representatives if that's what's happening in your state. The other thing we're seeing we saw an attempt at it in Florida I don't know if it's successful yet and we saw a successful attempt in Texas to bar ban, preempt, prevent municipal level and county level governments from enacting meal, rest and heat protections for workers. So unreal.

Ryan: 23:16

Yeah. And then we look at Missouri, looking at eliminating all taxes for corporations when one in seven people from Missouri live at or below the poverty line. What the hell are reducing those taxes going to do except hurt workers? We have a patchwork of values in this country and it's really tough right now as a workers' rights lawyer, to see the places where we are losing ground, primarily in red states. And it's frustrating because when you think of the average Republican voter, I think of a working class blue collar person and I don't understand how the Republican party has twisted itself in the past few years to where suddenly, workers protections are the enemy. Now that was a long route. You're saying where are things going? And I apologize for the partisanship here, but we have to call a spade. And if that's your party of choice, I'm begging you call your representatives and tell them look, not everything that corporate donors want you to do is a good idea. Stripping child labor protections there's really no excuse for that shit. Vetoing a minimum wage increase in your state because you say it's not needed Go fuck yourself.

Ryan: 24:30

We have states where workers' rights are gaining ground. California is looking at adopting I call it the Portugal rule, where they're talking about protections, where you don't have to answer your employer's calls and emails after working hours, where we have the new minimum wage law for fast food workers and, yes, it's controversial. Was there some funny business with that? Let me dial it back. This was an interesting one. So California enacted a $20 an hour minimum wage for fast food employees Now, not all fast food employees, only fast food employees of major, major brands with 60 or more locations. So that eliminates a fairly successful mom and pop. If you have Mel's Diner and you've got five locations, you don't have to pay 20 bucks an hour. Okay, funny business with that one. For some reason, panera Bread was exempted and then it came out that Panera Bread made some donations to Governor Gavin Newsom's campaign, so everyone's pretty pissed off about that.

Ryan: 25:26

And then, of course, the companies did what we expected they would do. They raised prices and it's a problem because companies were cranking up prices on anyone before the increase and it's not like they're just breaking even. We're not talking about Mel's Diner with five locations, we're talking Kentucky Fried Chicken, burger King, big companies here. Their profit margins are fine, they can afford to pay better wages to workers, but they're looking at their quarterly earnings report and they want to make sure their margins go up every quarter. So they're going to raise prices no matter what. But the minimum wage increase gave them an excuse to say see, we told you all along, enacting workers' rights protections hurts the economy. It's bad for business.

Ryan: 26:09

Francesca, that was a very long-winded way of saying what's going on with workers' rights in this country right now. It is the most active battlefield we have seen since 1933. We are very much in early New Deal territory and workers' rights advocates like myself are getting very fired up because we think that the results of this election, which political party and which ideology gets to control legislative activity for the next four or five, six years, is going to be very important. What I do is fundamentally political, and which political party controls the legislature, be it federal or in your state, has a huge impact on what kind of worker protections we have and how effective our agencies, who we entrust with enforcing those protections, are going to be. So I do get a lot of people who get upset. They say, ryan, why are you always talking politics, it's. What do you think the point of politics is? And, as a workers' rights lawyer, rights don't come from thin air. They come from laws that we put down on books.

Francesca: 27:14

Yeah, yeah, it makes absolute sense.

Ryan: 27:17

It makes absolute sense. Yeah.

Mel: 27:24

And there's a lot of just shit happening in this space, like the child labor thing killed me when we covered it a few months ago. We read a 15-year-old lost his arm right recently and they found him working in a slaughterhouse. It's just killed me. Yeah, all these stories.

Ryan: 27:35

The poultry and butchering industries are notorious for this. I'm not going to name any specific companies for reasons obvious.

Ryan: 27:42

Right, of course. But yeah, we do see a lot of child labor violations in the poultry and butchering and meatpacking industries. A lot of them are immigrant children, a lot of them are children without documentation and it's such a shame that it's been so politicized. My opponents truly think it doesn't matter, because those kids are not white, they weren't born here. They quote unquote shouldn't be here in the first place. This angry, vengeful idea of putting people into different buckets, of who deserves more protections for all human beings, right. So anyway, yeah, it's tough right now, but I don't want to be doom and gloom. I hope people are a little outraged because that might motivate you to research your candidates and before just knee jerking on a party line oh, this person's a Democrat. They must be about workers' rights. Do research the candidates you're voting for and what job they are going to do. You know, don't be putting people in power who say they care about workers' rights but behind closed doors they're accepting lobby money from Panera. Yeah exactly.

Ryan: 28:49

You want to make sure? Yeah, from Panera, exactly yeah. But also do take hope. There are people working very hard to fight back. I'm not the only workers' rights lawyer in the country. I'm one of a very wide network of workers' rights lawyers. There are thousands of us and we are working very hard to stand up for workers. The ACLU is standing up, for workers' rights and civil rights go hand in hand. There are politicians who are brave and speak up and push back, and then on top of that, we have advocacy groups, the side of standing up for people who are just trying to pay their rent, pay their groceries, pay their medical bills and have some left over to take their family to Chili's on a Friday night. We have a strong alliance of people fighting for those people.

Mel: 29:44

Getting down to the employee and the day-to-day shots you're at work. What are three things everyone should be doing as an employee?

Ryan: 29:53

There's a few things that come to mind. The first is I tell people, just because you're an employee doesn't mean you're not an entrepreneur in some way. All of us are self-employed truly we all are. Now it may be you only have one client and that client is your employer. And what do you sell them? Your time, your expertise and your labor. You should be tracking your hours at work. You should be tracking the duties and the tasks you complete at work. Don't just show up and go into automaton mode. And the reason this is so important is because, as a lawyer, I track my time, the I don't bill my clients for my time. We're contingency, but I build the insurance and the employer and all that for my time. I get paid from them, but I have to track the work I do. Why would you do any different as an employee? Track your hours, track the tasks you are doing and do a quarterly audit, check in and be like, hey, my duties are growing, but my pay is staying the same. That's going to give you an opportunity to talk to your client, your employer, and say, hey, my duties have grown here I can show you, because I tracked it. I would like a raise that is commensurate with the extra duties I am doing, you know. So that's the first tip Track your time, track your duties and remember that, fundamentally, we're all self-employed and you need to get paid appropriately for your work.

Ryan: 31:13

The second one if you have a problem at work, do a report in writing. One of the biggest mistakes I made in the fire service is I did have a back injury at an incident and everyone told me that if you admit that you were hurt, if anyone knows that you're weak, you're soft, you're going to lose your job. You're going to lose your job and there's going to be nothing you can do. Those people were not lawyers and they did not have my best interest at heart. I wish I had reported it. We do have protections. I would have gotten the medical care I needed and my back would probably be in better shape now than it is.

Ryan: 31:45

So when something happens, you are touched in a way you don't like being touched. You are threatened, you are treated with disrespect and you suspect the reason was because you are a woman, because you are gay, because you were born in Lebanon, because you are an immigrant, because you are pregnant. If you suspect you're being bullied for those kind of reasons. Report it, but do it in writing and keep a copy for yourself. Never report a work, injury or suspected harassment over the phone or face to face, and don't trust it on a company server, because I promise they're going to delete it the minute they get the chance. Report it in writing, keep a copy for yourself. That's your second tip. Your third tip is more emotional. There's a story I like telling people, if you'll indulge me.

Ryan: 32:32

There was this fantastic violinist he's still around Joshua Bell. He's the LeBron James of violin. Basically, he is the guy. Child prodigy premiered at Carnegie Hall at 17 years old, won all of these awards. He performed at the White House. He performed with Hans Zimmer. His music has been featured in Hollywood blockbusters like Angels and Demons with Tom Hanks. He's a big deal and if you want to go to one of his concerts you better be ready to whip out a huge amount of money for a ticket. He's a big deal.

Ryan: 33:02

The Washington Post in 2007, 2008, wanted to do a social experiment. They thought what if we took this extraordinary, world-class prodigy musician and took him out of these golden highfalutin opera houses and put him in a DC metro subway? What would happen Now? The theory was that it would just grind the whole place to a halt to put this legendary musician there. They were really curious, so they filmed him for 45 minutes. He put on a little disguise, put on a little baseball cap and a light jacket and he played for 45 minutes. Here's what happened.

Ryan: 33:39

No one gave a flying fuck about this guy in that Metro. It was sad. A thousand people passed by Seven. Seven stopped to listen to the music. Of the seven, only one even recognized to the music of the seven. Only one even recognized him. Only one person said holy shit, that's Joshua Bell.

Ryan: 33:55

Everyone else just thought oh hey, a guy playing violin, that's nice. Must be a tough time for him. We'll tip him some money. By the way, he made $54 in tips down there. For a guy who's used to making 80,000 bucks a night, that's not very good. This guy was a pretty high ticket performer. What's the lesson here? The lesson is no matter how extraordinary you are, no matter how talented or worthy or wonderful, if you are in the wrong place, you will be treated as ordinary, invisible or even disposable. I hope you all know that j Bell didn't leave that DC Metro station thinking, wow, I'm a loser, no one cares about my music. I'm only worth $54. I didn't define him. He knew who he was. It was just an experiment. The point is you can never allow the way a toxic work environment or a manager or the rate you are being paid to affect the way you view yourself. You wouldn't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. You should never judge yourself or your worth by the way a workplace treats you.

Francesca: 34:55

One more time for the cheap seats in the back.

Ryan: 34:59

Never judge yourself by the way a workplace treats you, because, I'll say it one more time, no matter how wonderful you are, if you're in the wrong place, you're going to be treated like you're ordinary disposable, invisible. We see it that was my journey in.

Francesca: 35:09

If you're in the wrong place, you're going to be treated like you're ordinary disposable, invisible.

Ryan: 35:11

We see it. That was my journey in the fire service and I want to be very clear. I made great, dear friends in the fire service. I still keep in touch with many of them and most of my career was great. I ended up in one bad firehouse with bad leadership and bad coworkers. It was a bad mix of people and that was my DC metro station. That station I really took it personally. There was a time in that station where my stomach hurt all the time and I thought am I a bad firefighter? Am I not a man? Am I not a good person? Am I not worthy of friendship and brotherhood? Am I really only worth 1650 an hour? That's what I was paid. By the way, as a firefighter, is that really all I'm worth? I let it affect me. By the way, as a firefighter, is that really all I'm worth? I let it affect me. But now I can look back and say, yeah, I was just in the wrong place.

Mel: 35:55

It's a great message and a good reminder for everybody. Like, your environment will make or break you, and you've got to choose to not let it break you if it's the wrong place.

Ryan: 36:04

Yeah, and there's a million reasons not to leave. I hear it all the time. People say oh, you're coming from a point of privilege, Ryan. People need their money. It's not so easy just to leave. What you're saying is easier said than done. I've even had people get mad and say what you're telling people to do is dangerous. It's like a toxic workplace will kill you faster than smoking will. And, yes, it is harder to leave than to stay. It is easier said than done. What's your alternative? You can take the advice or not. If you're in a bad place, make a change and maybe it'll work out. But if you stay where you are, it's just going to get worse.

Francesca: 36:40

I think it takes a lot of people saying that message around this is not acceptable. Move and you have options, you don't need to stay. That messaging is relatively recent and I think a lot of it really is, and there are many times we've talked about toxic work environment. We get the same feedback around. You're coming from a place of privilege. People need to work. Believe me, I get that, mel gets that, but I've had jobs that have literally almost destroyed me.

Francesca: 37:07

Destroyed me, yeah, I think a lot of people have. So I'm like, the more we can be like, not acceptable. If you're in a train station, get yourself to your Carnegie Hall.

Ryan: 37:18

I like that. I'm going to steal that. We're being recorded so I guess I can't. We'll send you the clip.

Francesca: 37:26

It is documented. No but right.

Ryan: 37:29

I love that, Francesca. I know I'm the one being interviewed, but I'm really curious Is there a specific work environment that you recall where you thought, wow, this is destroying my health?

Francesca: 37:39

Yes.

Ryan: 37:40

What was it?

Francesca: 37:41

It was a work environment where I felt I was getting sabotaged. It was pretty clear that they did not want me there.

Ryan: 37:48

I had that with the guy, but God, he was the worst guy in the world, man, and he would do that to the sabotage thing, and this is part of the many things that pushed me out. He would play pranks on me that were beyond not funny because they put me in jeopardy. He liked to hide my radio or turn off my radio, and the reason he would do that is because he wanted to make it look like I was not responsible, not responding to calls, not paying attention to things. He wanted to make me look bad. He would hide keys to things. I would stock the engine with stuff and he would remove it and then go tell the captain oh, steiger's not doing his stuff. But that was all stuff that could have gotten me seriously injured or killed.

Ryan: 38:25

But why do you think you got singled out, Francesca?

Francesca: 38:28

Because I'm an asshole. Yeah, I just look at your face and I say asshole.

Ryan: 38:33

You've got a punchable face yeah, I'm kidding.

Francesca: 38:37

I typically get brought into orgs to make big change and people don't like that.

Ryan: 38:42

You do not being the change agent. You're going to be a lightning rod for controversy. Everyone's reasons will be different. I know the reasons he targeted me is I think he had some mental health issues. He was a deeply troubled man. He had a relationship and badly his dog had died. He was just really unhappy. But on top of that, I think, he was mentally unstable. He hazed a firefighter and that firefighter ended up dying a few years it was maybe four or five years after I had left. Basically, they were training in the heat. This guy was exhibiting signs of heat illness and he just kept pushing him and saying you keep going, you need to push harder, not a leader. So why was I targeted by this guy? He just saw someone who was lower ranked than him, didn't have as much pull and he could take out his aggressive, sadistic Tendencies on me.

Ryan: 39:32

What's the point of that story? Two points, really. The first is you cannot take it personal. I think that's been a theme for the past 20 minutes here. It wasn't because I was not tough enough to be a firefighter. It wasn't because I was a bad person. It was because this was a sick individual who just saw a convenient target the new guy. That's the only reason it was happening to me, but back then I took it personal. That's the first lesson. The second lesson is you have to make a change.

Francesca: 40:00

Yeah, when you look at any kind of organization whether it's a corporation, government agency, political academia. We see this in academia, the woman that just died by suicide because she was allegedly getting bullied by her president bullying in academia is rent.

Ryan: 40:14

I do a lot of consultations academia universities. They might be number one, tied with hospitals, for bullying I, I fucking believe it.

Ryan: 40:23

I believe it, especially when you get people in there that are tenured I don't know what the policy effects of removing tenure would be, but it would probably help with the bullying situation Because I got to tell you every week I see maybe three or four. We're a very high volume practice. We get 200 to 250 inquiries a day, people seeking help. It's a tough time to be working class in the United States. It's a tough time where it affects people's self-esteem. It's another thing where it's easier said than done. Oh, just don't take it personally. Wow, I never thought of that. Thank you, great tip. Just don't let it bother me. Never thought of that.

Ryan: 40:59

Part of the reason it bothers people so much is the powerlessness. As human beings we like to think we have agency, some control over our lives, we have some dignity that we can live with. And in the workplace, when your paycheck and your reputation are on the line and there's a hierarchy where someone can kick you and you're not allowed to kick back, that fucks with your head. But yeah, that's why it's so hard for people, because what do you do when you're getting pushed and you can't push back? Yeah, push back.

Francesca: 41:34

I am curious about those people that they're experiencing something at work. They're documenting it and from an employment law perspective, I feel like I'm getting ex-bullied, sexually harassed, whatever. How do I move through that?

Ryan: 41:47

Oh man, that opens up a few things. So let's first start with bullying. Like I said before, bullying by itself is not illegal. It becomes illegal when the bullying yeah, we're going to see there's various initiatives for that. That could be a whole other podcast episode, because where is the line between hey, my boss told me to do my job at my job and I'm?

Ryan: 42:06

just a dickhead and I don't like being bossed around. Or hey, my boss is actually a predator and I need help. Where is that line? It's tough when you deal with subjective things like what is bullying. Fortunately we have an objective measure. That is illegal and that's a hostile work environment. It's not the same as bullying. A hostile work environment is severe or pervasive abuse directed at you because of a protected activity or a protected characteristic. Severe legal definition.

Ryan: 42:35

It's so outrageous it has no place in civil society. Twisting a subordinate's nipple outrageous has no place in civil society. Calling someone the n-word outrageous has no place in civil society. Or it can be pervasive. Doesn't have to be some crazy earth-shattering moment like having your nipple twisted. It can be something more subtle that happens over a long period of time. That's pervasive.

Ryan: 42:58

Great examples I've seen are managers staring at an assistant's breasts and, over and over, just cannot look at anything but her breasts, checking out her butt, you know, eyeing her up and down, making her feel really uncomfortable. She speaks up and he says it's a compliment You're beautiful. Did he touch her? No, are any of those instances by themselves so outrageous? They have no place in civil society? Depends on who you ask. But if we did a poll, it would probably skew towards no. This is just rude behavior, but it happened over a long period of time. So well, this is just rude behavior, but it happened over a long period of time, so it became a hostile work environment. What do those things all have in common?

Ryan: 43:36

The abuse is motivated by a protected activity or a protected characteristic. If someone is physically touching you at work, it doesn't matter if they're sexually attracted to you, it doesn't matter if they're the same sex, it doesn't matter if they were just joking. We can typically call that some form of sexual harassment. Hands off your nipples, don't stare at my butt. This is sexual harassment. N-word Obviously not okay. You would think it would go away in 2024. It's not. I have a case where I'm dealing with it right now, motivated by your race. Now here's the other thing the abuser. It's still illegal if they're wrong. I've seen this happen a few times. I've had a client where they thought she was Asian. She was not Asian, she was white. But they would just make a lot of. I can't say what they said on here. It's messed up, but they would make a lot of Asian jokes to her that were not funny, not cool. She wasn't even Asian, but it's still valid because they're attacking her on the you are.

Ryan: 44:42

There's a rumor that men are not protected under these laws. You are, your race, your gender, all those things are protected, even if they're perceived Now that's a hostile work environment. We took a long detour. That is illegal. Being targeted for those reasons is illegal. Now what do you do? You cannot hold your employer liable legally, financially, for harassment retaliation, legally, financially, for harassment retaliation, discrimination if they do not know or have reason to know that the abuse is occurring. So if you're being targeted by a coworker, a peer, someone at your level, until you make a report, there's no liability on the company's side in most situations. Now if the person attacking you is a manager with hiring and firing power, in many states the liability is automatic, but still you're going to need to make some kind of report to make it stick.

Ryan: 45:27

Hr treat them like you would treat the police. Don't be engaging in unsolicited chit chat with them, don't I'm telling you as a lawyer don't go up to cop cars and start talking about your day. Every police interaction is potentially dangerous, even if you are innocent. Okay, don't be going up to HR and telling them about all your issues. They are not your school counselor. They are not your therapist. They're not your buddy. They're definitely not your lawyer. They are there to be a conduit for workplace disputes and keep them under control. So the business functions and when lawsuits start to fly, they're there to protect the company from you.

Ryan: 46:08

Even the most kindest, caring, most empathetic, wonderful HR rep ultimately works for the company and it's not their job to tell you how to win a lawsuit against their boss. It's not their job and it's not fair to ask them to do that anyway. But if you do not communicate with them, the employer can simply say we had no idea this person was twisting your nipples. We had no idea this person was making Asian hate jokes at you. We have no idea. And so you don't win any compensation or any justice for that. So you've got to report to HR. Keep your communications objective, neutral, professional, on point. Do not burden HR with long-winded just every problem under the sun. Keep it short. Hi Mel, I am writing the report. Harassment I am experiencing from my supervisor, john Smith. On April 5th at 4 or 5 PM he told me I have beautiful Oriental eyes and slapped my butt. What can the company do to protect me in this situation. I like that sentence.

Francesca: 47:00

What can the company do to protect me in this situation? I like that sentence. What can the company do to protect me in this situation?

Ryan: 47:04

Yeah, those facts come from a real case. It's insane. It's insane, I get. I do get told sometimes not a lot that people think I am unneeded, like they're. Like what does an employment lawyer even do? It's 2024. This stuff doesn't happen, I am telling you. A person looked at my client, said you have beautiful Oriental eyes and touched her butt. They really think that there's no consequences for shit. It's in the stuff. I see will make your head pop it's all that lead paint it might be in all fairness.

Ryan: 47:33

Our parents are full of lead and asbestos. We're full of microplastics there you go got their problems but yeah, we talked about hr, we talked about that and then, yeah, the, the reporting is key and when you make that report, keep it short or objective. The script I offered works just fine. Save a copy for yourself.

Francesca: 47:48

Save a copy for yourself. Documentation all day, every day. They will delete it.

Ryan: 47:51

They're not supposed to. It's spoliation, I know it. Oh, this lawyer doesn't know what he's talking about. That's illegal to destroy evidence.

Mel: 48:04

Yeah, no shit. Anyway, it's illegal to break the speed limit. Did that on the way here. When should people reach out to a lawyer? When's the right time?

Ryan: 48:10

It depends on a few situations. Here's how workers' rights lawyers like myself work. Now, it's a unique specialty. It's not like personal injury, where all consultations are free. Different employment lawyers might charge fees for the consultation, but you don't have to go to the only employment lawyer you find. You can call multiple offices and some will give you a free case evaluation. We do free case evaluations at my office. Now you can't take an hour of my time for free, but we'll take a look and we'll let you know if we see something. It doesn't hurt to ask. It doesn't hurt to ask hey, do I have a case here? Hurt to ask. It doesn't hurt to ask, hey, do I have a case here? Now, if you need advice because you're in a tricky situation good one I see very often is you want to take FMLA leave, you have a baby coming and you're not sure what your rights are and your employer is acting funny about it Talk to an employment lawyer because in a lot of those cases we'll give you 30, 40 minutes of advice for free. We'll say look, these are your rights. Here's how we recommend you. Talk to them and if they retaliate, if things get worse, come on back. We'll sign you.

Ryan: 49:08

So when is the right time? I don't think it's ever too early, because what's the consequence If you're getting a free case evaluation? Worst they say is, hey, we're not going to sign. You Talk to a couple other lawyers to be sure. If things are really bad and a lawyer wants 150, 200 bucks, you're going to have to weigh whether that's worth it. But there's also offices like mine where if we see writing on the wall we'll be like look, we know that if this gets worse you'll come to us to sign as a client, so we'll give you free advice until you need it. So anyway, that was a very unhelpful lawyerly response. I could have just said it depends.

Francesca: 49:42

It depends, I was going to it depends, it depends. It answers everything.

Mel: 49:47

No, I think it's good. It's good because it's just have the consultation.

Ryan: 49:50

If you're uncertain, have the consultation, have the conversation and employment lawyers, workers' rights lawyers as I like to say, we're really accessible to people. The majority of my clients are unemployed people. The majority of my clients are unemployed no figure, wrongful termination, uh. Another big majority are low income minimum wage, just above minimum wage. There's this small segment of people. Hop in my comments, be like oh, don't listen to this guy. He just wants you to sue your employer even though he knows you won't win, because he wants your money. That is not how it works. I don't get paid unless we win, and and I only get a percentage of what we win. So it's not like I'm going to take the first low ball they throw at you. My job is to get maximum justice for you.

Mel: 50:31

When I was a paralegal, I used to help with a lot of disability cases and I was like oh yeah, we didn't charge people, it was a percentage. It was some random like 33.33.

Ryan: 50:39

Yeah, that's how we are. At my office it's 33.3 for most cases. It varies actually. So, the most common is 33.3. Workers' comp it's like 15. Yeah, class action, it's 25. Trial like the big show 40. Yep, that makes sense and some people get mad and they're like how can you charge so much money?

Mel: 51:00

It's time effort research the courts are accessible to everyone.

Ryan: 51:04

You can represent yourself and see how it goes. It's not like we don't bring any value to the table here and the client always walks away with the lion's share of recovery anyway.

Mel: 51:14

Yeah absolutely and.

Ryan: 51:14

I'm not trying to say that we're the best people in the world, but we front all the expenses. I have one case man. I put 15K into it before we even filed because I got expert witness reports and investigations, all that stuff. It makes justice accessible because for that client where it was $15,000 of prep work just to file it's a really unique case where we needed some expert opinions and some investigation before we got in. She couldn't afford that.

Ryan: 51:39

She couldn't even afford the $435 filing fee. That's what it costs to file in California Superior Court. Anyway, she couldn't afford that, certainly couldn't afford these experts. So by saying, hey, I'll take your case on contingency, yes, I'm going to take a percentage, yes, it's a big percentage, but all the way up along you've got a world-class law firm with very experienced attorneys in your corner and we're paying all the expenses for you. All in the way.

Mel: 52:03

Yeah, the risk. You're taking out a lot of the risk up front, plus this is your wheelhouse, yeah, and if we lose that case, she's not getting a bill.

Ryan: 52:10

I just eat that cost. Right, you eat the cost. You're taking on the whole risk, yeah.

Mel: 52:14

I think people need to know that, because it's not a greedy business.

Ryan: 52:17

And the TLDR of the thing is justice. Justice is accessible. You don't worry about the cost. Talk to a few different lawyers and if all of them want a fee up front, if none of them seem like they want your case, it may be possible that what happened to you was unfair, but maybe not legally actionable.

Mel: 52:35

Yeah, that's a good call out. Yeah, something to look out for. What are some signs? You just called out one thing If they're trying to get all of those fees up front, obviously your case might not be as strong as possible. It's an orange flag.

Ryan: 52:52

Yeah, are there red flags people should look out for? Yeah, if no attorney wants your case, it's because you may not have a case, but if no lawyer wants your case, there's a reason. Yeah, and it's not that you're a bad person. It's not that you did anything wrong. It's that the United States and the global sphere of industrialized quote unquote advanced economies has some of the weakest worker protections of any country who we would consider a peer. There's just there's some things that are unfair. They are objectively wrong what happened to you but not legally actionable.

Mel: 53:33

We have something that we like to call rapid round.

Ryan: 53:35

I'm down to clown, let's do it.

Mel: 53:37

All right, let's do it. What is your funniest case?

Ryan: 53:42

My funniest case. Oh man, you know, by its nature what I do is not particularly funny. I will say oh my God. It is funny to me when married men hit on my clients and they think that because they deleted the text messages on their phone that the text messages are gone. They are not gone, we have them. It is very funny to me when we get into a deposition and read text messages aloud, oh, from married late 40s, early 50s, 60 year old men texting my 20 something year old clients of all the things they'd like to do, and then, after they're done reading that and just say Mr Johnson, are you married?

Francesca: 54:26

Yeah, oh, my God.

Ryan: 54:30

Do you have a? Do you have a good?

Francesca: 54:31

referrals for a divorce attorney. Yeah, I do.

Ryan: 54:34

I do, I do. I say hey, yeah, yeah, I got it. Why is it funny to me? You're a pervert. You're picking on my client. I don't care about you. You can explain to the missus why you're going to a deposition today.

Mel: 54:49

Gosh, a friend of mine, worked for, and when she showed up to his house to drop some stuff off at his house, this old perv opened up the door naked, completely naked, telling her she needed to carry this thing in. So she had no choice but to come in. And he's just standing there talking to her naked for 15 minutes.

Ryan: 55:13

Yeah, I'd have gotten her a bag for that.

Francesca: 55:15

Let me get this straight If someone shows you their junk, you automatically have a case right.

Ryan: 55:19

Yes, yeah, it would depend on a few things A situation where I could see it not being a case Again. Every situation is different. Your co-workers Francesca, billy from accounting comes to you and says, francesca, I want to take you out on a date. You say, why not? I got nothing else going on. You go on the date with Billy. He's your co-worker, not your boss. During the date, he whips it out and you say, okay, that was weird. I'm never going to talk to you again. Uh, that may not be legally actionable by itself. You went on a date outside working hours. He was a co-worker. It happened one time. Especially if the company fires him or disciplines for him, I wouldn't start, you know, running up a credit card bill, thinking you're getting a settlement for that okay.

Francesca: 55:59

so if someone shows you their junk during working hours, oh, okay.

Ryan: 56:05

Where these cases get complicated and I've seen a few of them is when something happens outside the workplace. Now, if it's a manager, there's going to be this big legal fight of if they were acting within their capacity as a manager. Workplace retreats are crazy.

Ryan: 56:18

Oh geez, yeah Workplace retreats, everyone reverts to being a 16-year-old at summer camp. They think it's cute to sneak into people's beds naked and stuff. It's just the. It is shocking to me. Being an employment lawyer. I have come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as a grownup. It's a fantasy, it's a convenient fiction, this idea of adults and grownups that we have made in our heads. They are not real. We are nothing but a bunch of preteens and teens running around with bodies that are getting a little wrinkly. That's it. There's no grownups out there.

Mel: 56:49

I tell Franchoff the story all the time. When I was an intern here in the state capitol at the head of our office, she said to me when I was 22, she was like honey, all it is in life is adult daycare and if you can remember that, you'll be successful. And I'm like that. Yeah, I found that to be true, 20 plus years later.

Ryan: 57:10

Yes, it is very true, and it's adult daycare is accurate. I like the teen summer camp thing because I gotta tell you, we handle so many sexual harassment cases. People, they're horny and it's a problem. I don't know how else to say it.

Francesca: 57:27

That's going to be the end of the trailer for this episode.

Ryan: 57:35

Oh, boring employment lawyer. What's this all about?

Francesca: 57:37

People are horny. It's a problem.

Ryan: 57:42

I get it. We're human beings. You're going to see people, you're going to find them attractive, but for the love of God, don't act on it.

Mel: 57:49

Oh, my God. Okay, what's the type of case that comes up? I'm assuming it's going to be this, since people are horny and have a problem, but what type of case do you see most often popping up?

Ryan: 58:00

Honestly, that gets a little boring. The most common is probably wage theft. Wage theft is typically not accidental. It is one of the most rampant crimes in the US. There's a headline that goes around saying it is the number one most expensive crime in the US. I'm not sure that's true if you count for things like insider trading and stuff like that, but it costs American workers close to $50 billion a year. So wage theft by far. And it tends to affect the lowest earning people the most. I have multiple class actions that I work on. We deal with it all the time. So wage theft by far. That's why I tell people track your time carefully.

Ryan: 58:36

Do not trust your employer. They have lawyers? I bet that. Nope, they have a systemic process. They create confusing comp plans, weird commission structures, weird pay stubs that don't make any sense to anybody. They're stealing from you Just because your company is a big, huge corporation. Don't assume it's on the up and up. In fact, the bigger and more powerful the company, the more likely it is. They've engineered some sort of way to shave off your wages. So wage theft by far. Engineered some sort of way to shave off your wages? So wage theft by far. And then after that, fmla retaliation.

Ryan: 59:11

The United States is very backwards in a lot of things, including our approach to family leave and medical leave. It's a hotbed for retaliation. The most common form of discrimination we see is pregnancy discrimination. I have more pregnancy discrimination cases than race, national origin and LGBTQ discrimination. Combined Pregnancy is the number one most common form of discrimination I see when in the pregnancy cycle really big one, and you'd be surprised females will attack subordinate females. For for it it's just. It's a mistake to assume that someone who has experienced pregnancy themselves in some capacity or is a woman will not discriminate against you. It's in the employment context. Those loyalties that you would expect exist don't always exist. And then, of course, sexual harassment. Probably marginally more pregnancy discrimination than gross sexual harassment. I mean, if I signed every sexual harassment case that came through my door, it would probably be number one, but we're only a team of 10. So we're pretty selective about which cases we choose to run with, and if we can't take it, we try to send it to a partner of ours yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Mel: 1:00:24

The pregnancy thing. I just myself alone and francesca, you probably know, I have. I'd have three girlfriends who were let go while on fmla I would have got them a bag well a lot of employers get around it too by firing the whole org.

Ryan: 1:00:40

We see that a lot. Uh, and this is a message I should probably put it out once a week Honestly, there's this myth that employers can get around these rules by just doing a mass layoff or eliminating a whole department. We look at that stuff and we'll say, hey, we think it's odd that you fired 30 people from your organization and half of them were people who took FMLA leave in the past year and a half. Odd, I attend a lot of conferences and I've been at conferences where I've had HR reps tell me hey, don't tell anyone, but I work at XYZ company and we're laying off 600 people and we were definitely told, subtly, to skew towards older workers.

Ryan: 1:01:19

Yeah, stuff happens, it is intentional, it is a myth. It is a myth to think, oh, my company has lawyers and legal teams and they're going to make sure everything they do is perfectly legal. No, they play games. If it's genuinely some shenanigans going on, there's going to be clues and we don't need a confession, we don't need a smoking gun. We can pull the data and say it's really weird that 40% of this mass layoff was people with disabilities or people over 40. Like you can. You don't have to be a legal genius. Now, how do you get that information? Where do you get it? How do you fight for it? Because they're not going to want to give it to you. That's where the legal expertise comes in, but to look at the clues and figure out if something illegal happened. A jury is smart, they'll figure that out.

Mel: 1:02:10

What's something that organizations get right? I know we a lot of the times are like, no, they don't do it right. But what's something that they do get right, or what you've seen some organizations do well?

Ryan: 1:02:24

well, it'll vary by the organization. Obviously, some companies just treat their employees like crap and that's just their core value. Is treating people badly. The best thing I think a company can do, obviously, paying your people well. Give them regular raises, give them a clear path upward. Make it clear what is expected If they want to go from. Hey, I'm an entry-level employee, I would like to be an assistant manager, a manager, a director, a department head. Make it clear how they get there. There's so many organizations you go into where it's just apparently the only way to get there is to be the son of the boss's golfing buddy or something like that. But if you make a clear ladder, hey, if you get this certification. If you serve on this board. If you do this, if you do a clear ladder, hey, if you get this certification. If you serve on this board. If you do this, if you do that, you'll be considered for these roles. I think giving employees meaningful checkpoints in their career with you where they say, hey, I got a raise here because I did good, I got a promotion here because I checked off these boxes Like giving people some sort of ladder to climb, I think is good.

Ryan: 1:03:21

Also, take a firm. Look at your middle management and really ask how necessary some of those roles are. There's a lot of middle managers out there who don't have much to do, so they occupy themselves with microaggression, micromanagement, bullying, useless meetings that drain your resources. I had to tell you, god, middle managers without clear roles are a cancer on your business. They suck up their own salary, they suck up the working hours of your other employees and they create drama. Because I'm telling you, very busy employees don't go around bullying each other. It's the ones who have too much time that tend to do the most bullying. And then, don't hire people you don't trust. If you don't trust someone, don't hire them.

Mel: 1:04:00

Yeah, and if you don't trust anyone, maybe go to therapy, because it sounds like you're the problem there. Ryan, this has been amazing, Great conversation. We're so glad you joined us today. Thank you for having me on. Thanks for listening to your Work Friends. You can find us over on yourworkfriendscom, Instagram, TikTok and Francesca where else can they find us? Join us on your.

Francesca: 1:04:35

Work Friends LinkedIn group or your Work Friends on YouTube, if you're a video person.

Mel: 1:04:39

And listen. If you have a story to share or a topic you'd like to cover, you can email us over at friend at your work friends dot com. It's Vegas, it's anonymous, so share with us. And hey, if you like what you hear, share with a friend or two. Thanks, friend, bye, friend.