New Week, New Headlines: Top Tech Talent Exodus Over RTO & We Love Moms. Just Not at Work.
May 13, 2024Season 1Episode 25
Francesca Ranieri
We're back with New Week, New Headlines!
This week, we're digging into a two stories that we can't let go.
Topic 1: TopTechTalentExodusOverRTO Faced with RTO mandates, some top tech talent left instead according to an article in the Washington Post this week.
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
This week, we're digging into a two stories that we can't let go.
Topic 1: TopTechTalentExodusOverRTO Faced with RTO mandates, some top tech talent left instead according to an article in the Washington Post this week.
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
The LinkedIn Group: We'd love to have you join the Your Work Friends Group on LinkedIn
DropUsaLine: Send us your ideas, questions, comments, complements, whatnot, to friend@yourworkfriends.com
Speaker 1:
for women to recover from childbirth takes anywhere from six months to a year to fully recover from pregnancy and childbirth.
Speaker 2:
I can tell a funny story about diapers here, but I'm like maybe that would be a little TMI. Hey Mel, how are you?
Speaker 1:
I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2:
Good good.
Speaker 1:
What's the good word? Over there in Connecticut this morning we have a morning dove in our yard that likes to. Is it cooing, I don't know. Every morning it wakes me up at 4 am. But I had the best surprise today. I opened my blinds and they have a little baby that they're taking care of on our roof, so I can't be too mad.
Speaker 2:
Very nice, very nice. How about you? Congratulations on the new Bambino, new arrival over here Bambini yeah, oh, that's exciting, that's nice.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah. How about you? How was your weekend? Where am I? South of you, north of you?
Speaker 2:
South into the side of me. I don't know why Northeast geography just totally trips me up. I am near you Southwest. I'm just wrapping up my Pennsylvania tour. I am out here visiting my family. My niece, sophia, graduated from Westchester university yeah, exciting and stayed out here for my nephew Michael's birthday and my mother's day, so it was a great time to be with family. We're back with new week, new headlines. Mel, what are you talking about today?
Speaker 1:
I am talking about senior executives who have been ordered back to the office and, as a result, those top talent people are leaving instead of staying and I want to talk about a study that was done on this RTO.
Speaker 2:
we keep coming back to it, keep coming back to it. I think we will keep coming back to it until it gets figured out, which it probably never will. But there you go, fantastic. I'm talking about an article from Fast Company. The US gives lip service to motherhood, not supporting moms at work, and this article was fantastic and also want to share. Where do we currently stand in the US with how we treat moms in the workplace? Ooh, I like it, yeah.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, Good topic, let's do it like it. Yeah, yeah, Good topic, let's do it. The Washington Post this week came out with an article called ordered back to the office. Top tech talent left instead study fines. What they found is that, faced with RTO mandates, some of the top tech talent just decided you know what? This isn't working for me, so I'm out. Recent research from the University of Chicago and the University of Michigan shows that return to office or RTO as we so lovingly say often on this podcast these RTO mandates at major tech companies like Apple, Microsoft and SpaceX led to a significant increase in the departure of senior employees. These employees often move to competitors, which is impacting the company's senior workforce stability.
Speaker 2:
That's going to be interesting. I wonder if it's also because they have the ability to do that right. They potentially have savings, they have money to do it, they have potentially big networks as well, so prime for that type of movement.
Speaker 1:
And I think what we're hearing anecdotally from folks who reach out to us regularly is I don't want it. I don't want to come back to the office unless there's a reason and people now have choices to make. This is a choice, this is a trade-off, and if you're an organization who's taking this flexibility away from your workforce, this is a choice. This is a trade-off, and if you're an organization who's taking this flexibility away from your workforce, this is a risk.
Speaker 1:
The study found notable reductions in the proportion of senior employees following these RTO mandates. At Microsoft, there was a decline of over five percentage points, at Apple, four points. And at SpaceX, which required full in-office attendance, there was a dramatic drop of 15 percentage points. This is sending a message right. These numbers are pretty loud and clear. So what are employees saying? High-ranking employees are shortening their tenure in response to these mandates, taking all of these valuable skills and productivity tools that they have with them to other companies, and the migration of talent suggests we're gonna have a real negative effect on all the companies that are requiring. This is in terms of their operational strength and their competitive standing, because if you're losing talent, you're not attracting it either.
Speaker 2:
I think there's so many interesting things happening with companies making decisions like this with RTO, because there's also undercurrents of other things happening, especially when you're talking mid to senior level talent. One, we know that 11,200 people a day are reaching 65 years old. A lot of those people are opting into early retirement, so we have that happening. We have things like RTO where people are opting out and saying I don't want to do this, and also you have companies making really deep layoffs. What I'm hearing is a lot of those folks are mid to senior level talent because they have higher paychecks. And I'm curious about especially in the next two years, when we know the job market's going to pick up, when we know that we're going to have a lot of peak 65 retirees like 4.1 million people most likely retired that some of these decisions are going to come back and bite these employers in the ass.
Speaker 1:
I'm just going to make a prediction here, so this is not based on any statistical data other than the research we've done on this podcast for several episodes now. I think you're absolutely right. The silver tsunami, as we quoted a few episodes back, is coming, and organizations really need to start thinking about how do you tap into that traditional tacit knowledge that they carry? And folks who want to stay either partially retired and come in as consultants are likely going to want flexibility in terms of how they work with you and partner with you. Yeah, we're seeing that generationally, gen Z is not just requesting but demanding that they have flexibility, and right behind that are millennials and including Gen X, who I think are like hell. Yeah, thanks for fighting the good fight that we started several decades ago, but we're so glad to see it. And it's going to be a huge risk and not to say you shouldn't have any in-person meetings. You and I talk often about how this is incredibly important to have some sort of hybrid option, but it's about giving people the flexibility. So work is a part of the life in a more balanced way, and there are so many studies out there that show providing flexibility boosts innovation. It attracts better talent. It's just good for your bottom line overall. So it's going to be an interesting few years, especially for these big tech companies who are struggling as is. So it's. Is this the risk you want to take?
Speaker 1:
There's been a few industry criticisms here and perspectives shared, so I want to share some of that.
Speaker 1:
Some of the tech executives, of course, are arguing in favor of in-person work, citing its benefits to innovation and connectedness. There's no argument that when you're coming together with purpose, of course, then it's value add. However, critics, including academics and other professionals, are arguing that these mandates are too rigid and they fail to reflect the benefit of hybrid models that have maintained productivity, and they fail to reflect the benefit of hybrid models that have maintained productivity. So the article is suggesting that business leaders should really carefully consider employee preferences and the broader market dynamics before enforcing these mandates. There's a strong implication that more flexible work policies could be more effective in retaining key staff and sustaining productivity. So lots of debates going on over here. There's going to be, I'm sure, a much broader and continuing conversation, as we've covered in the past, but the study really does reflect a broader trend where companies are struggling to adapt to new work norms that include hybrid models. But these RTO models are not the fix. It solve it that they think they are.
Speaker 2:
So, mel, yesterday was Mother's Day in the US and it got me thinking about moms. I read this rad article by Sally Krawcheck and Fast Company, the title Enough Mom Washing. The US Gives Lip Service to Motherhood While Not Supporting Moms at Work. What I want to talk about is how we treat mothers in the workplace, ie women that have children, and the data is pretty astounding in terms of how we don't actually support. So would love to jam about some of the findings from the article. And then I went and did some digging around. What are the stats, current state on some things like maternal leave and pay and all that good jazz?
Speaker 1:
Sounds great. I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's pretty abysmal.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, we're not doing really well. In the article, sally Krawcheck talks about three key things in terms of how expensive we make it for mothers to work. Women actually experience a loss when they become a mother and they are also in the workplace For the most part. Women basically experience a pay cut a lot of the times if they have taken a leave of absence to care for their child and come back Over time they experience about 20% cut in pay. That is pay. That's also any kind of compound interest from any type of retirement fund. But over the course of her career they'll experience about a 20% pay cut.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I believe it. I've seen this with friends and we've seen it at work in HR space, but typically women who go out on some form of medical leave for maternity will find that when they're coming back, they're no longer eligible for a full bonus, for example, or now they have to wait another year to be eligible for a promotion that would have increased their salary. All things that are really unfair, to be honest, because the only thing separating men from women at this point is their ability to birth a baby.
Speaker 2:
So this really shouldn't be a thing, shouldn't be a thing. When you look at the data in terms of where we see pay equity falling off, where we see women really falling off in terms of being in leadership roles, it's right around these childbearing years or these roles where women are experiencing and the data is showing that, it's, a 20% negative impact. At the same time, men who are fathers actually have what's called a daddy bonus, where they will earn 20% more than the men that don't have children, because they're all of a sudden seen as the everything guy or this big figure. So it's like women get the 20% cut, men get the 20% bonus. So fascinating, yeah, listen, if we really wanted to value working mothers, what would we really need to be looking at in terms of those levers to pull?
Speaker 2:
And there were three that were called out in the article which you and I both have worked in this space. These are three that are doable, these are three that we see some organizations making traction on and these are three that we already measure, have processes and systems in place. We just need to get better. And those three are childcare, equally ease and equal pay. Yeah, okay, because, remember, women, a lot of the time, still will bear the brunt of childcare house responsibilities, and a lot of times women are going to bear the brunt of kind of the office housework as well when they're at the office.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, because unnecessarily it's been placed on women that they are caretakers in every facet of their life, and that shows that. I think. What was that? Remember that? What was that study that was done I don't remember if it was Harvard or not, but the study where they took a male leader and a female leader and they did a focus group of each of them giving feedback to somebody with the exact same script. But the reaction to the male was he's a strong leader, he's fair, he's this. But for women it was she's a shrew, she needs to be more caring, she needs to be more nurturing. So there is just this societal pressure that you're supposed to show up as a caretaker in everything that you do when you're a woman.
Speaker 2:
A thousand percent. Let me give you a little test for this. Someone's birthday is coming up. Who's taking care of it? Someone needs to write on the whiteboard. Who's taking care of it?
Speaker 1:
Someone's supposed to be taking notes.
Speaker 2:
Who's taking care of it?
Speaker 1:
I would say stop, yeah, stop doing this to women, stop having this expectation Number one.
Speaker 2:
First step A thousand percent All right, but let's talk about child care in this country. I was like especially from an employer perspective Again, if we look at organizations and how they can care for working moms, how are they doing it? Child care is incredibly expensive. We were paying for Enzo like thousands of dollars for child care every month. It's ridiculously expensive.
Speaker 1:
I believe it. I know women who had to give up their careers because the cost of child care was more than their salary. So, when making a decision it was like, yeah, I guess I'm peacing out for a few years, because what's the point of me going to work? Just the fact that they had to make that decision alone Unreal.
Speaker 2:
Yes, obviously, we don't have federally mandated child care. A lot of states don't offer a lot of child care, so this yes, this will fall on organizations. Here's the thing that I find interesting, especially going back to your topic, mel. We have a lot of organizations that are on site and have always been on site. You think about things like distribution centers, health care, hospitals, blah, blah, blah. You also have a lot of organizations that are asking people to come back three days a week, four days a week, five days a week, and so I got to thinking, wow, one of the best things, especially as a parent, is reduced or free child care. That's fantastic and even better. And even better would be on-site child care. On-site child care has seen, has very big improvements on things like engagement, retention, performance when you have it, even things like attendance, because people aren't running late or rushing out to get their kids. That's a very real thing and very stressful for people. How many employers actually offer on-site child care in this country? You want to take a guess with the percentage?
Speaker 1:
I'm going to say less than 10%.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, close, okay, 14%. Oh, okay, not great, not great, no. So the kind of wah-wah news here is that the very low number and, by the way, child care used to be much more popular. It went away big time because you see a lot of organizations offering.
Speaker 1:
I'm going to give you a stipend to kinder care, or here's like a for emergency child care only.
Speaker 2:
That doesn't cut it for a lot of people because a monetarily it's not that big of a benefit. Right and two, I go back to what I said. There is something about having to rush out to pick up your kid. By the way, if you're late picking up your kid from daycare, some people like some people charge like ten dollars they charge.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yes, there's like a fee for that because it's stressful as hell.
Speaker 2:
So your kids are sweating trying to get into your kid. Maybe that's just me, but basically on-site childcare a lot less stressful. The bad news is it's like a meh number 13%. The good news here is this is growing in popularity 47% increase in on-site childcare since 2019. So I think this is positive. We're starting to see a lot more organizations recognizing the benefit of on-site childcare. I would love, love, love to see that number go up, especially if you're an organization that is saying get your ass back to the office, absolutely All right. The next one paid leave, number one. Let's talk about paid leave. The US is number 41 on the list of countries around their paid leave benefits. It sucks my ass.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's horrible. We have the worst paid leave, we have the worst. Literally, it is so awful, it is so incredibly awful.
Speaker 2:
Yeah yeah, us does not have federally mandated paid leave.
Speaker 1:
No.
Speaker 2:
Number one Countries like Sweden and Norway, yeah.
Speaker 1:
Sweden gives a year to parents. They also send you home with an entire baby kit to set you up for success. When you're going home from the hospital, they send you home with a ton of supplies and they rolled out the initiative where they give both parents if there's two parents a year of paid leave so that they have time to bond with their child. Get used to this massive family adjustment in how you live your life together to set your relationship up for success during this time. It's a huge impact to families, a huge life change, and it's been working really well.
Speaker 2:
Talk about doing the right thing or an amazing thing to set a family, parents, a child up for success. That's the way to do it.
Speaker 1:
That's the way to do it.
Speaker 2:
But again, this country does not offer that. There is no mandate. I have met women that literally gave birth and went to work three days later because they didn't have the leave and they needed the money Typically when you think of folks who work in the trees or folks who work at restaurants, for example, they get nothing.
Speaker 1:
a week after having a baby, as you mentioned, they'll be on the floor and they're trying to find child care for a newborn, for example. Imagine that being away from your newborn within three days.
Speaker 2:
So we do have FMLA, which is family medical leave of absence, as an option for you. That's also an option if you need a hip replacement right? If you are a full-time employee, a lot of times employers will offer some paid maternity leave in some form. Let's go here Percentage of employers that offer paid maternity leave Mel, what would be your guess?
Speaker 1:
I'm going to say maybe somewhere between 50 to 60 percent. Yeah, 40 percent.
Speaker 2:
Only 40. Oh, even worse, only 40 percent of them. And, to your point earlier, only 70% of women actually are able to take maternity leave. 70%, that means 30% of women don't have any maternity leave whatsoever leave at all.
Speaker 1:
That usually is an option, but then they have to weigh. Do I need PTO for sick days? Do I need it for emergencies that come up? Or maybe I just need a goddamn vacation because I had a baby.
Speaker 2:
This year You're trying to cobble together leave and care. And again, this falls a lot of the time to women, right? Women are experiencing two things, right, if they've given birth, they're experiencing getting their body back to homeostasis. They may be nursing, they may be experiencing also like any kind of psychological postpartum shorts or whatever, and then, on the same token, they've got a kid.
Speaker 1:
I've heard that and I'm not a mother, so someone, keep me honest, write to us, but I feel like I've read somewhere too that for women to recover from childbirth takes anywhere from six months to a year to fully recover from pregnancy and childbirth.
Speaker 2:
I can tell a funny story about diapers here, but I'm like maybe that would be a little TMI. But if anyway, it's just so, again pay leave, right, give people some pay leave, so we have child care.
Speaker 2:
Let's get it in here, let's get paid leave in here, and the last one here is equal pay. Yeah, just come on. Already. We talked about this with Kate Dixon about earning what you deserve. Friends, if you haven't listened to the episode, it's a great episode to talk about. If you want to ask for a raise, you want to negotiate your salary, she gives some great tips on how to do that and get it done. But what we talked about with her is women will earn at least a million dollars less than men over their lifetime simply because of pay parity. Right. Caucasian women and I'm going to go through this here Caucasian women earn 16% less than men. Latinas are compensated 55% less than white men. Black women are paid 64% less Native American women 59 cents on the dollar.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I just don't understand why this is still a thing. I just don't understand why this is still a thing.
Speaker 2:
Yes, I don't either, In the meantime, know your worth. Add tax, go there and get what you deserve. If you're wondering how your organization values working women, I would look at things like what are their paternal leave policies? What are their maternal leave policies? What are their adoption policies? What are their maternal leave policies? What are their adoption policies? What are their IVF policies? And look at are they offering four months paternal leave and maternal leave together? Are they offering six months paternal and maternal leave? I would argue, mel, don't you think six months is a?
Speaker 1:
pretty. Six months should be the gold standard at this point, six months paid.
Speaker 2:
In the US. That is the gold standard I would also look at. Does your company tell you where they are with pay parity? Ie, how much money does a woman make versus a man? So look at pay parity. And the other thing I ask about any kind of child care stipend on the very low end. If they have some sort of discount or some sort of affiliation we see that quite a bit where they'll offer you like 10% off, 20% off, whatever, but even better, on-site child care, and these are all things that you can start to ask for as well.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, especially if you're required to be in the office, especially if you're required to be in the office. This thing around childcare, pay, leave, equal pay.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's the trifecta of success for mothers, for parents, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Those are the things that it takes. If you really cared about working mothers, these are the things you would get on luck.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely yeah. It's so funny because when we graduated going into the work world and knew this, learned about all this stuff. I don't know about you. When I first learned women made so much less than men, I was like what, what is this shit? And now to be in my 40s, coming from my 20s, thinking in that my lifetime I would get to a point where I experienced equal pay and equal benefits within the workplace. To see that we're still fighting this fight can be incredibly disappointing. But I think the important thing to remember is we all have a voice, whether you're a man or a woman and, in fact, if you're a male in the workplace, this is where you really should step in and step up and speak up for making sure that these things are taken care of, and especially if you're a male, in the boardroom or in an executive seat making these decisions. If you care about women and you care about your mom, make your mom proud and do something for women.
Speaker 1:
Good topic, good topic. All right, cool, I heard up man. All right, it was so good to see you, friend.
Speaker 2:
So good to see you too. We're pulling into mid-May. It's very exciting.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, we have some exciting stuff coming up, so we're talking to Adam Horne next week right, adam Horne.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, he is a co-founder of OpenOrg, which is trying to make organizations more transparent in a lot of different and very doable ways, so we'll talk to him about what does transparency really look like and what can you do as an employee to understand where your company is? What can you do as an employee to understand where your company is? What can?
Speaker 1:
you do as an organization to become more transparent, and we just announced last week that, folks, we're doing a summer series with Fishbowl, so if you're interested in experiencing a live episode with us, we're talking about the seven deadly work sins and we're kicking it off with lust in the workplace, so join us. You can register for that on our website at yourworkfriendscom. And if you want to find us on the socials, we are on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube If you want to write us or share one of your fun stories with us.
Speaker 2:
We love receiving them. They're a lot of fun to read. Friend at yourworkfriendscom. We do reply. We do All right. Bye, friends.
