A deeper look at Religion and having a Relationship with Christ

Can rigid religious rules overshadow genuine faith? We tackle this provocative question head-on by sharing our deeply personal experiences, including Daniel’s upbringing in a strict, almost cult-like environment. We emphasize the importance of seeking a true relationship with Jesus over simply adhering to religious rules. From the pitfalls of mainstream religion to the process of sanctification, we navigate the complexities of modern-day Christianity with a spotlight on individual discernment and personal Bible study.

Discover the transformative power of salvation by grace and the relevance of the Old Testament for believers today. Our candid discussion highlights historical deviations from Biblical teachings, such as the Crusades and the misuse of religious practices. We stress the significance of verifying teachings against scripture and delve into the impact of human traditions on church practices. By referencing scriptures like Colossians 2:8 and Mark 7:8, we underscore the dangers of prioritizing human traditions over God's commandments.

Join us as we explore practical steps to deepen your relationship with Jesus through prayer, meditation, and immersion in scripture. We discuss the importance of a supportive church community, responding to sin with love rather than judgment, and the continuous journey of spiritual growth. Highlighting scriptures like Romans 8:38 and Philippians 4:6, we remind you of the unshakeable nature of God's love and the commitment required to follow Jesus. Our heartfelt thanks to our listeners close this episode, encouraging continued engagement with God's word and remaining grounded in Biblical truths.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:05

Welcome to the Truth, the Bible and Everything Between with me, your host Michael and Daniel. Welcome everybody to yet another episode of the Truth, the Bible and Everything Between. I'm here today with my co-host yeah, all right, I'll say my name is daniel.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Hello, I'm the co-host.

Speaker 1: 0:33

That's michael, you know so, guys, we have a very exciting episode today. Today, we're going to talk about the concept of religion versus relationship. We're going to again split our podcast into two different parts. Well, part one we're going to discuss exclusively what religion is. We're going to talk about a lot of things, what we perceived in our own lives as well, what we see in the modern day church and what a lot of people fall under. And then, in part two, we're going to discuss what a relationship with Jesus is supposed to look like and how you can actually enter into a relationship with Jesus. So, dan, let's get started. I'm going to yes, shot off. I'll shoot off the first shot.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Uh, just yes, as I did previously, can I just have a very quick step back to the previous episode? And here we go, then, because we're addressing a lot of people. You know it's going to be in your face, and in this world there are many, many divergent views these days and no one knows the truth. And this is one of the main points of our podcast is to actually direct people towards the Bible and for them to read it for themselves and find out what the truth is. So, before you get to our opinions and yours and everything else, there's the Bible right there. Read it Now. My mum, after our last podcast, complained that I talked about Michael Jackson and Britney Spears, and I just wanted to say I am sorry about that. That is not considerate of me to talk. They're real people. Michael's dead, obviously, but you know I wouldn't want someone talking about me like that, and so, britney, I am sorry. You can just hit me, baby one more time if it affects you, and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:24

So on that note, let's get started off good. So, guys, the first thing that we're going to talk about today is what religion actually is. So religion is basically following a group or a set of rules that that you, that actually leads to you worshiping a deity. Now, for all of us as Christians, we obviously worship God, and what religion actually can look like can depend on how you were actually brought up. You know like they are. Obviously, we've spoken a little bit about different types of churches before, and all of those churches differ greatly in how they actually choose to worship Jesus. And what sometimes happens is, with religion, a lot of people get entrapped by this thing where it becomes all about legalism and following a set of rules where people actually tend to forget about who they're actually worshipping. You know, like I don't know what your thoughts on this is, dan. You know, like just about the concept of religion itself.

Speaker 2: 3:20

Ah right, well, I'm quite good to ask, because I was. Actually, when I was very young, we lived in what I would describe as almost like a cult, and this was out in the forests in a place called Bandon, oregon, and they all believed in Jesus. But the way they did it was pretty interesting. I mean, I remember we weren't allowed to watch mickey mouse because that that was evil, and you know, having criticized mad max I I guess that's a bit more hardcore than mickey, but the way that people actually thought about being a christian, I could have easily just broken it down into some very strict, self-righteous sort of rules. And, um, honestly, like you know, I mean I guess I'm a hypocrite, you know, pointing at people but mate like in in a practical sort of sense, or to what it says in the bible, I would say they didn't have much clue. But the rules, the rules were good, they were there. You know, whatever someone's come up with, like you know, eat thou, not a fish, you know that sort of thing.

Speaker 1: 4:28

And look, dan. It can also be said that religion can sometimes lead to a place where you can meet God through religion as well. You know, like I know a lot of people that can be considered very religious, even though it's maybe not apparent, if they have a personal relationship with Jesus, they have religion in their lives, and what I mean by that is they, at a set time every single day, they start praying. They know to read their Bible at least once a week. They go to church quite like almost every single Sunday, even though they haven't really met Christ in their walk and really known Christ, the thing is they're certainly in a position to do so, and that's because of religion.

Speaker 1: 5:09

So you know, like I think sometimes, if you think about Christianity and what the, what mainstream churches are offering us all today, you know, like I think the argument can be made that we need to use our spirits to also tell the difference between true faith and religious practices. Yeah, because true faith and religious practices? Yeah, because true faith looks very different. You know, true faith is you believing in Jesus and believing that you're saved and you're having a relationship with him, and religious practices is that telling you that you have to pray because it's something that you have to do. Yeah, and it's supposed to be something that you want to do from the bottom of your heart.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Well, I would just also like to say that straight away one of the things which I think can really refer this to everybody you know who's not a Christian. The main problem I find with Christians from an outsider's perspective is that everyone looking at them can see that what they're doing is just garbage, you know. But you can have a set of rules and you can have a nice robe and you know some crucifixes and a ceremony, whatever you like, and say we're really holy, but you know people who aren't Christian or anyone can just see that it's rotten. And I mean it says by their fruits you shall know them. And it says Jesus also said this is how people know that you are my disciples, when they see that you love. And then can people see that.

Speaker 1: 6:39

And look, dan, the truth is sometimes with the mainstream church, a lot of people get hurt and the reason why they get hurt is because it's sometimes people doing things out of their own convictions or their own things in their heart and not things that necessarily come from the Lord. I always look at all of these churches that can be considered false If you just want to go, if you want to match them against the Bible. You know like it's not always that pastor's fault. You know like sometimes a lot of those pastors, they had a mentor that taught them in a certain way and that's also why the Bible says you know, like Paul actually said, I don't want all of you to become teachers, because they'll be held at a higher standard.

Speaker 1: 7:22

And, my friends, I also don't want you to misunderstand us, we're definitely not advocating not going to church. Church is the most wonderful place. It's just sometimes in mainstream religion some churches have, I wouldn't say, gone astray, but there has been some things over the years that seeped into the church that should not be there. But if you want to meet God, the church is probably the place that you're going to go meet God. So definitely go to church. That's very important.

Speaker 2: 7:50

This is actually. This is really really on right on what our whole podcast is about, and this is about you going to the Bible for yourself and having a look in it and learning what's true and you actually being discerning. I mean, even if you listen to us. I mean, you know, I don't want to bring up Mad Max again, but you know, like you have to listen to what we're saying. You need to know the truth. We're not asking you to be a sucker and, yeah, I think I mean just generally with churches, this sort of misconception has been going on right back to the time of the Bible and you know, there were people even back then who were preaching one thing. I think Paul mentioned some who said, oh, that Jesus had already returned. And he said, you know, no one should listen to them. Michael and I, we were talking about the Crusades and Christians going out and killing Muslims and I'm thinking, mate, you know Jesus said turn the other cheek. How are you going to do that when you've stabbed him with his sword, like you know?

Speaker 1: 8:51

That's the thing. And that's also the thing, dan. Sometimes people get led astray. You know, at the beginning of this podcast, you also told me this one specific verse that was laid on your heart. I'm going to quickly read it for us Romans 1, verse 18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who, by their unrighteousness, suppress the truth. You know, friends, sometimes what happens is people become part of church organizations and mainstream churches and those people don't always have the right intentions and because of that they actually suppress the truth. Um, we also mentioned a little bit. Then you shared some things that you, you know, somebody did that they, they, they basically preach what's not in the bible today um, yeah, well, I actually one of my former teachers.

Speaker 2: 9:40

I went to a christian, she became a lesbian and she then went on to preach and basically to promote being a lesbian in that state. And if you can actually go on with that verse, michael, if you can keep reading, because it will actually in the Bible, it will tell us a bit about homosexuality. So if you can read a few more verses until you get to that part, give me one second Romans, 1, verse 18.

Speaker 2: 10:12

So we're going to continue, and this is basically telling us about the state of the world, what people are doing in it and where is God. Yeah, so here verse 19.

Speaker 1: 10:23

For what can we know about God? As plain to them, because God has shown it to them, for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. There we go, dan.

Speaker 2: 10:44

It will go on to actually mention homosexuals directly. So if you find, the part.

Speaker 1: 10:50

There we go. 24, therefore, god gave up, gave them up in the lust of their hearts, to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchange the truth about god for a lie and worship and serve the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. So it says oh yeah, for the reason, god gave them up to dishonorable passions for their women, exchanged natural relations with those who are contrary to nature. And the men, likewise, gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge god, god gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done okay, now sorry, michael I really I really pushed him, it's really

Speaker 2: 11:43

good, you know, but he's um, he does English just so the listeners know. That's good practice for him with his reading. Thanks, Dad. What I'm saying is my teacher and she's basically promoting what we've just read about as if that's what Christians are supposed to do. Read about as if that's what Christians are supposed to do. But I think you'll see in the Bible that it warns us not to live according to the passions of our flesh. It mentions men burning with lust towards other men and look, you know, if, probably right now, that there's someone who's gotten offended and that you know. Well, it's just too bad. You know, I'm just reading out what's in the Bible. Okay, and the flip side of this is that it says that God, who is righteous, you know, and who is holy, and just that's what we are actually heading away from, and instead we're embracing a debased mind.

Speaker 2: 12:42

Do you want to have a debased mind? That's my question for you. You know Of a debased mind. That's my question for you. You know?

Speaker 1: 12:46

of course not, but but that's the thing that's unfortunately reality of what we're dealing with today. Dan is like in some modern day churches, this is what's being preached, this is what's being told to people. But at the end of the day, my friends at least you know, like we, we have the guidebook. I understand that. Obviously it's very important to listen to what pastors have to say, because they help to interpret and understand the word of God for people. You know. But at the end of the day, if you're ever in doubt, go to the source material. You know like, if you think your teacher is full of it, you know like, just just go and read the Bible. You know, get the answer.

Speaker 2: 13:21

And it's not one sided, I'm not just bashing on lesbians. The Bible is harsh on sin. Yes, All sin, it says. All unrighteousness is sin. It says that if you offend in one way you're guilty of another sin. It says because he that said do not commit adultery also said do not murder. So that means if you've murdered someone it's the same, as you know, being a lesbian. If you, I don't know what you could be doing. All the sins you know, just think of them. Basically, you're all in the same pot, you know, with that. So yeah, but the modern church, my experience is they want to get around it. Ironically, a couple of hundred years back it was the opposite. And the church, you know, they had flagellation. That's where you beat yourself to try and atone for your unrighteousness, Just going in the opposite direction and really just as bad. And I was talking with a friend of mine on this topic and basically what we think is that the devil is quite happy to take advantage of it either way.

Speaker 2: 14:31

You know, if you can be a Christian who judges someone and says, oh you're, you're gay, you know you're gonna go to hell, I'm better than you, that's great then then the gay guy's gonna feel bad, he's gonna hate you. You know you're, you're gonna think you're righteous, when when really what you ought to direct him towards his is please you know in love for him, yeah that's a thing, okay?

Speaker 1: 14:52

Okay, that's a great thought. Thanks, dan. Let's move on to the next part External observation versus heart transformation. What this is basically about is it's very easy to see or people do things that make them seem religious. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 15:09

For example, if you're going to go to a restaurant and you have a bunch of people around you and they they quite adamant about saying grace in front of these people to let them know that they are Christian. This is actually a really good practice, you know, because I think, like in an external way, it honors God, you know, first of all. But the thing is, what sometimes happens is people fall trap. Fall in a trap where they think certain things are bringing them closer to God, but they're doing this out of tradition and out of habit rather than really doing it for the Lord. What I mean by that is if we look at the Bible, there is a Bible scripture here Matthew 15, verse 8. This people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me and you know, like my friends, at the end of the day, this happens to a lot of people. Can I just say?

Speaker 2: 15:59

well done, michael, because you know, with the I was looking at people who aren't christians, but now you've hit it so well. This is going straight back to the christians who say they're christians and say they're righteous.

Speaker 1: 16:12

Sorry no, but 100. But that's the thing you like. A lot of people do Christian things out of habit. You know like, for example, in my life, I grew up in the Dutch Reformed Church, you know, a wonderful place where people love the Lord. But the thing is, the things that I had to do as a child, they were all done out of culture and out of habit, rather than me having a relationship with Christ. What I mean by that is my mom and dad. They dragged me to church Sunday after Sunday. I remember sitting there like I was like, okay, this is supposed, this is what's supposed to happen on a Sunday. And you know like, it was only until later in my life, after I've given my heart to the Lord, I actually legitimately wanted to go to church.

Speaker 1: 16:56

But before that point, it's really a thing out of culture and habit. Like a lot of people, even if they're not religious, they'll sometimes pray before they eat, you know, because it's something that their fathers did and their fathers did before them. But what? What I'm trying to say is you need to make sure that when you do observe all of these things and when you do actually follow all of these things in your life, that you're doing it with the right heart. It shouldn't be done out of habit, like don't read the bible because you think you need to read the bible, because you legitimately want to understand more of God, because you want to grow in your knowledge of of of the God that you worship, like that's where your intentions should actually be, Dan, do you have any other thoughts on this topic?

Speaker 2: 17:39

I was just enjoying a moment of pleasure, imagining you getting dragged to church and remembering For what it's worth.

Speaker 1: 17:46

I still enjoyed it, yeah, well.

Speaker 2: 17:49

I went to the youth group but I didn't have to get dragged because it was a good place to meet girls, I mean even if you're in change and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 17:59

You know like I always joke. You know that's typical, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 18:02

I mean because I wasn't a Christian. But you know, going to a Christian school, they'd say, come to the youth group, and I'd think, oh well, Tracy's there, you know, yeah, like, sit next to her and just do my best to ignore everything they said.

Speaker 1: 18:18

You know, dan, I'm always comforted by the fact or the bible words that says faith comes by hearing, and I always think it's never a bad idea for someone to be exposed to as much as the Lord as possible. So even if someone's intention is to meet girls by going to youth group, let them go, you know, like he might just go there and have a legitimate encounter with the Lord, you know.

Speaker 2: 18:40

Honestly. I mean, you know, obviously, what Michael and I are saying is that we both previously had, you know, this experience of going to church, which is we've learned, is now very different to what we're doing. And I go to church, I read the Bible and I pray, because I've learned that that's what I actually want to do to get to Jesus, which is important for me, you know. So, yeah, it's not, I don't do it out of an obligation, but I've actually learned that it's excellent, I want it, you know.

Speaker 1: 19:13

It's good for us. It's good for us. There we go, man, and in the next point, salvation by works versus salvation by grace. Now, this is one of those things, dan, that I think it's become complicated in the modern day church, because a lot of people I know we've discussed this before in the past past you know like I think we'll just briefly touch on this again a lot of people are still of the perception that you can earn your salvation by doing good things, and this largely comes from the origins of christianity. You know, obviously, christianity comes from judaism and a lot of the things in judaism at this. For you to be sanctified, you need to do something. There's always something that you have to do. If you did this thing wrong, you need to sacrifice this specific animal, this specific altar for you to be sanctified. Now, because Christianity originated from then, a lot of the early Christians were, in fact, jewish people. You know, a lot of those traditions got carried on in the church.

Speaker 2: 20:11

I get frustrated, mate, with some of these legalistic people when they tell me to do something and it's legalistic, and I'm thinking, mate, you go and circumcise yourself properly and come back afterwards. Let's get it done in the right order.

Speaker 1: 20:26

But that's the thing you know. Like, no, no, but like, I understand what you mean there and you know, like, if you look at the Old Testament, there are lots of things that it's still important for Christians to know. I know lots of Christians that almost refuse to read the Old Testament because they have the more that saying that that's no long. That's what relevant to me yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:44

I'm a New Testament guy, I'm a Christian. Yeah, it's like, yes, I understand it. But it is for you, as a Christian, also good to know what the Old Testament says.

Speaker 2: 20:52

No, not only that because I've had the same thing and can I just point out Jesus quoted the Old Testament, paul quoted the Old Testament, peter quoted the Old Testament, that's Jude also quoted the Old Testament, if you sort of go through, and it says all scripture is God breathed. Yes, that means all it says. Jesus was the word became flesh. So Jesus was actually the physical embodiment of the word of God, which is God breathing, which is the whole Bible, it's not just part of it. And obviously don't don't take us like you know, don't take this foolishly, because it says you must learn to rightly divide scripture. I mean the devil also quoted scripture. You know it can be done all over the place.

Speaker 1: 21:38

Of course. But that's the thing, because of all of those roots there and sometimes people are still of the mind of they think they have to do something to earn God's forgiveness they think they have to do something to be in good graces with God. You know, like, for the Bible actually says you in Ephesians 2, verse 8, for by grace you have been saved through faith. It is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, and this is this is what makes Christianity so good. You know, like, dan with it, where do you choose to serve? In church, or whether you choose to tithe, and whether you choose to do all of those things, that's not going to have an effect on your salvation. You know, at the end of the day, we've been given salvation through grace. It's a gift given to us by Jesus. All we need to do is be willing to accept it into our lives.

Speaker 2: 22:26

And that's really simple and that refers to everything we've talked about, whatever sort of sin it is, you know, be a murderer or whatever else. That's how you're saved, because Jesus died for you. And if you want to, you know, sacrifice a bull or whatever, that's fine, but it's not going to help.

Speaker 1: 22:43

That's the thing. And I have another scripture here Dan Titus 3, verse 4 to 6. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God, our Savior, appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of Holy Spirit, whom he poured out for us richly through Christ Jesus, our Savior. Now, dan, this also tells us, you know, like our deeds are not the things that actually saved us, not at all.

Speaker 2: 23:15

You know put in another verse. But you were saved by grace and not of works, and that my faith is the gift of god. Lest any should boast amen.

Speaker 1: 23:22

There we go and you know, at the end of the day, then you know, like because of this gift, we can freely come to that point in our lives where we know that we're going to go to heaven because we know jesus. But what are we trying to say here, friends, where we know that we're going to go to heaven because we know Jesus? But what I'm trying to say here, friends, is just know that you don't have to do something, or even do something in church, for you to actually meet Jesus. However, these things naturally start to happen if you actually start becoming a Christian, if you really give your life to the Lord. There's a transformation process that starts happening in your heart. And you'll see, generally, good works are accompanied by the transformation of the heart. They don't originate from that mindset of I need to do this to earn God's grace. No, it's like I want to do this because God has saved me.

Speaker 2: 24:11

That's the difference and just for the legalistic people, um, we could then refer to james, where he says I will show you my faith by my works.

Speaker 1: 24:20

Yes, so that's exactly what michael's talking about those works exactly are generated from your faith and not other way around. You're not going to do good things to gain faith. Because of your faith, you're going to do good things, amen. Okay, dan, human tradition versus God's word. Now, obviously, we've spoken a little bit about how the early church has had an effect on what churches actually do today. We also need to understand that it's very natural for things from cultures and also from people to seep into what we today call the modern day church. What I mean by that is, you know, just to give you an example, when the saxons first became christian and a lot of them wanted to start bringing the word of god to the vikings, you know it was very difficult because you know that I myself I have German blood and I understand the Viking mindset Well and you know, if you met them with your axe, you know that was always the first thing.

Speaker 1: 25:24

That's the thing. So then, obviously, the way that you minister to the Vikings cannot be the same way that you minister to the other Saxons, you know. So they obviously had to come up with ways to minister to these people so they could understand the gospel in an easy way.

Speaker 2: 25:38

For them Without being split open.

Speaker 1: 25:40

Exactly, and you'll see, a lot of things that we do today in church are because of those cross-cultural things. I'm going to take, for example. You know like even in the Dutch reformed church we did lots of things sacraments like, sometimes, like the, the pastor would wear like these black robes and it would always look a little bit dodgy. I was like, yes, it looks so scary why are they doing that?

Speaker 1: 26:06

and then I never understood that that that was as a result of, like, when, when, when, the when the church broke away from Catholicism, like, and a lot of them still kept a lot of the things that they actually did when they were still Catholic. You know, like, a lot of those things have symbolism and meaning behind them. But today, some of the preachers, they wear those robes because they think they have to. You know, like, obviously, they learn the actual purpose behind it. But my point is there's a lot of things being done in church today because of human tradition. Now, if you ever see something like that, for example, I know there are some churches that directly relate or that relate giving to the kingdom of God, giving to the church, to your sins being forgiven. And, my friends, you know I'm not going to throw a specific place under the bus, you can go and search this. Like I said, we're not here to alienate people or anything like that, but this is a legitimate big church doing this in the world. This is the way they release things.

Speaker 2: 27:05

I know before they were actually selling salvations in the Middle Ages and I learned about it at school and you would pay the priest and he'd give you like a proper certificate, like you're saved and thanks for the money. You know, there's actually a verse and it says for no man can give, forget specifically, but it basically it says you cannot ransom another person's soul, and that's because only Jesus's blood is what can save you. So you can't. There's no price you can pay in diamonds or gold that will save your soul. That's because only Jesus' blood is what can save you. So you can't there's no price you can pay in diamonds or gold that will save your soul.

Speaker 1: 27:38

That's the thing. But whenever you see something like that, always ask yourself is that in the Bible? You know, my friends, I'm going to take an example. You know like the biggest enemy of modern day Christianity is other Christians, and what I mean by that is you will see online. If you go online, you ask is this preacher a false teacher? I can guarantee you you will get 10 videos that this guy is probably a false teacher and you'll also get 10 videos arguing this guy is not a false teacher. And Christians like to weigh each other down and look. It is still important to try and recognize false teachings, my friends, but your biggest guide should always be the Bible. If someone says something that is not in the Bible, it is not from God. It's either from themselves or it has a more sinister origin, and not only that, but not from.

Speaker 2: 28:31

Like a specific, like half a sentence in the Bible. Do you know what I mean? Like where it says you will surely die. And that's it Like. That's my message to you you will die. You know. You have to read everything in a wider context. Read the rest of the Bible as well.

Speaker 1: 28:47

Yeah, that's the thing. And, friends, I have another Bible scripture to share Colossians 2, verse 8. Friends, I have another Bible scripture to share Colossians 2, verse 8. See that no one takes you captive oh, I like this word no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of this world, and not according to Christ. You know, friends, we should never be taken captive by tradition. And you know, I still think certain things are good to have. It's good to have discipline in your routine with God. You know, like it's good to have a certain time of day where you're going to go pray a little bit, you know, but, like I said, don't do this out of fear that you have to keep up with the tradition. Do it out of because you actually want to spend some time with god you're serving god.

Speaker 2: 29:35

And it says am I now trying to please man or to please god?

Speaker 1: 29:39

if I was trying to please man, I would no longer be serving christ, so fantastic then I have another scripture that actually links up to that mark 7, verse 8 you leave the commandment of god and hold to the tradition of men. You know, know, my friends, I know, in modern day society it can be very complicated because everybody has a different background, they come from a different place, where things are done in a very specific way. You know, but one thing that I really like to think about, I really like to think about that concept of kingdom culture. Kingdom culture means that it doesn't matter if you meet a Christian from South America, america, or if you meet a christian from america, or if you meet a christian from somewhere in asia. Their attitude towards things in life.

Speaker 1: 30:21

There are some things that should be 100 universal. So, like I understand, there are lots of cultural things that will always be changing and the way that you brought up will probably be the way that you live your life. But because of the bible, that's universal to us all, we need to have certain things in place. So, for example, your belief that jesus is the only way that you're going to get salvation, that should be universal. I don't care what type of christianity you're from. If that is not, like the, this staple of of your belief, then there's something wrong.

Speaker 2: 30:51

But well, there's's also a verse which I can't off the top of my head remember it because I, you know, wasn't considering it beforehand, but it basically says that when people are going into divergent sort of views, that they're not cleaving to Christ, who is the head, and that's very plain. You know, especially when you've got all these Christians playing tennis. And it says it right there. And Paul said you know, especially when you've got all these Christians playing tennis, and it says it right there. And Paul said you know, when they were saying that they'd been baptized in the name of Paul or in the name of Apollos, he said I wish that I hadn't baptized any of you. And he said like, was Paul crucified for you? And obviously that again points you towards Jesus. Jesus, that's the thing, okay.

Speaker 1: 31:33

And obviously that again points you towards Jesus. Jesus. That's the thing. Okay, and then the final thing that we're going to talk about here in this part one is judgment versus love.

Speaker 2: 31:42

You know, dan, it's. Oh man, you just give me judgment any day of the week.

Speaker 1: 31:45

Yeah, but that's the thing. People feel very differently about this. You know, sometimes the modern day church, it can go one of two ways. It can be too progressive and say it includes all it doesn't matter what, what you're, what you have done, which is biblical, where it says like you can come to church no matter what you have done, what sin you have done what you've involved in, you can come to church, but then, like you mentioned the beginning of this podcast, then, like you know that a teacher that's lesbian, you know, like, there that becomes a problem with it's too progressive.

Speaker 1: 32:15

Because of their Fear of judgment, they make the gospel of Christ vanilla. They want to make it digestible for people to hear and that is a problem. You know, like I heard a pastor speak, you know I can. Yes, man, it touched my heart. Then you know, like, if you go to anybody in Hollywood and say, hey, brother, god has a plan for you, yeah, hey, brother, god has this amazing thing that he wants to give you in your life and you don't have to pay us because we've already established that.

Speaker 1: 32:44

You know that's wrong yeah, but if you, if you tell that to somebody, nobody would object, because that's a very positive and happy message. But if you go to someone, it's like hey brother, if you don't turn from your ways and turn to Jesus, you will not have everlasting life. That becomes a lot more difficult to digest.

Speaker 2: 33:00

The classic phrase is turn or burn. Turn or burn there we go.

Speaker 1: 33:04

But if you tell that to somebody it becomes more problematic. But what happens now is the church is sometimes trying to over correct. They want to make it so inclusive that they dilute the gospel man, and that should not be happening. Dan. It honestly it hurts my heart, man, when I hear things like that.

Speaker 2: 33:21

Can I just point this out? Okay, because Jesus told us that we're to love everybody and he died for everybody, okay.

Speaker 2: 33:29

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what sins you've got. That includes me. Okay, I'll be the first hypocrite on the chopping block, but, as far as it goes, Jesus never actually said to everyone you're all fine and dandy. He said it's the sick who need a doctor. He told them that they were serpents. He told his own disciples that they were faithless and perverse. I mean that's good for you. He told his own disciples that they were faithless and perverse. That's the thing. I mean that's good for you. Who wants to be doing all of this and think that it's fine and go to hell? But that's the thing then.

Speaker 1: 34:02

Now, on the other side, the church is also like the conservative church. They're so strict that if they find out someone sins, they immediately they excommunicate them from the church, which is the last thing that you're supposed to do, man.

Speaker 2: 34:17

They never excommunicate themselves, you'll never find you know like they won't. And I mean mate, on the topic of these sort of things, because your Dutch Reformed Church had robes, but did they have a staff? How big were their?

Speaker 1: 34:32

hats, but look like all of those things put in perspective. You know like I'm going to think about something quite recently, like a lot of people are aware of what happened with Hillsong Church and all of those major things happening there. Can I?

Speaker 2: 34:44

just point out that I went to school with, like Jeff Bullock, his daughter was in my class, timothy Douglas was in my class. Timothy Douglas was in my class, his brother, jonathan Douglas. Right, that song. How does it go one way, jesus, that's from Hillsong. Well, I played soccer against. I think his name was Ben Houston. Yes, I'm Brian Houston, so I know what I'm talking so that's the thing and it's quite close to home.

Speaker 1: 35:10

But even with all of that, dan, you know like it's, it's just hammer. The Michael, you know. No, but you know it's a thing and it hits quite close to home. But even with all of that, dan, you know, like it's Just hammer them Michael. No, but you know it's a thing, man, I'm going to tell you, like you know that pastor in New York I can't remember what his name, carl or something.

Speaker 2: 35:23

Carl Lenz.

Speaker 1: 35:24

Yes, yes. So the thing is, man, when all of those things came out, you know the church really like they immediately removed this guy and they almost cut ties with him. And I'm just thinking, man, if, if he was in the world, nobody would have batted an eye, yeah, about what he actually did. And the thing is, friends, you know, like today in in church, they shouldn't. They look, it's very important for us not to to be okay with sin and things like that. We would never condone things that are that the bible said you should not condone. But the thing is, if someone has fallen the way, that we should respond as brothers and sisters and, as the church is, we should love them yeah, we should love them and be with them if one of you.

Speaker 2: 36:04

Therefore, they be caught in a sin, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering yourself lest you be also tempted. So that that's good. I was afraid michael was gonna, you know, dish it out on hill song and I, you know, no, I'm glad that we are now sort of making sense and everything is in perspective and we aren't just here to sort of throw mud on you because we can catch it ourselves but.

Speaker 1: 36:30

But that's the thing, dan. I have a scripture here, john 13, verse 34 a new commandment I give to you that you love one another just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this, all people will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another, perfect, perfect and how do we how?

Speaker 1: 36:53

do. We love people. That's the thing. Then, even if someone is as gay or lesbian or they do something that's openly sin, in God's eyes there's no big sin and no small sin. If I lied to my wife about something that I did or did not do, it's the same in God's eyes. Then then then someone that's gay. Yeah, I know a lot of people disagree with me, but the truth is, the Bible does not distinguish big sins and small sins.

Speaker 2: 37:16

That is just spot on, and I really like to hear it because, you know, my verse was the one from Romans and I'd advise everybody to read that. And we're not just cherry picking the Bible. You will find many verses in the New Testament that tell you all about sin. Try Jude, that's a good one, you know I mean, but what Michael is saying number one about love and number two about the way it applies to everyone that, to me, is what's actually happening. You don't get to sort of to do all of this and just be perfect.

Speaker 1: 37:50

You know that's the thing. But look, in the modern day church, everybody has their faults, then, and I, I, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big optimist man like you've.

Speaker 2: 37:59

you've known me for a while now I believe I'm a closet hypocrite, you know I.

Speaker 1: 38:05

I believe that you know, like if, if people legitimately want to worship christ, that might look different at some times, you know, but if we approach this thing in love, we can't go wrong and understand where that judgment principle comes from, because I know people also have this desire to be holy and the thing is here's another bible scripture 1 Peter 1, verse 16.

Speaker 1: 38:26

Since it is written, you shall be holy, for I am holy. I know a lot of churches take this into perspective and because of that, they think the right way to to deal with issues is to excommunicate people and and push them out. But at the end of the day, we also need to remember that people are people. We have all fallen short of the glory, yeah, and you know like we should do what we can to help our fellow brothers and sisters onto the path. So whether you're part of a church that's super progressive and super open, that's not always biblical, or whether you're part of a church that's very judgmental and always kicking people out, you can do the part that you need to do, my friends. As a Christian, you can initiate that change. You can still love your brothers and sisters the way that the Bible says.

Speaker 2: 39:12

Yeah, that is the baseline and that qualifies everything we've said, whether you're a Christian, whether you're not a Christian. That's what Jesus said to do. They said what was the most important commandment and he said love. And if you go to 1 John, it will tell you again. It makes a distinction between sin, just as we've been saying, but it says specifically that you should love and in fact it says if you don't love, then then you're a murderer. So that's really, really simple.

Speaker 2: 39:42

And, yeah, I mean personally the parts about the judgment and hell. I like those. They make me feel good and, look, I'm I'm what's the word? Like I've. I've seen many things, you know, and I've I've made many, many mistakes, and those are the parts that I actually read. They make me feel safe because I'm I'm a smart cookie, you know, having having encountered a lot of misery by going the wrong way. When I see something that directs me towards the right way, I appreciate it. But it's not where I get to go to church and find everyone and I'm being realistic If I looked at the church I go to, I could find something wrong with every single one of them. No problem, they could talk for two minutes and I could say bang, you know, no problem, they could talk for two minutes and I could say bang, you know, said the wrong thing, that's a sin, and you can sort of see how this all works.

Speaker 1: 40:41

You know, no, but look, dan, like I said, man, that's the thing about church. We're really advocating for you to definitely join a church. If you don't have a community, find a community. It's really good for you. Church of the Reed hypocrite, we don't take cash, you know. Look, I think what Dan is trying to say. You know, like, at the end of the day, we none of us will ever be perfect.

Speaker 1: 41:05

You won't find a perfect church, you know but at the end of the day, you know like, look for a community of brothers and sisters, even though it might came or come across as really like religious. You know like, look for community of brothers and sisters, even though it might came or come across as really like religious. You know like, the second part we're gonna talk about in a moment now then is where it's really at for you. You know like, we've spoken a little bit about religion and I Know we've asked mainstream churches a little bit. You know Like, but the thing is that that's normally. We will find religion.

Speaker 1: 41:32

I don't think about there because if you think about religion, someone's a Christian. They most like to go to church. Ok, but now there's an other element to it, and this is the most important thing, my friends you might have religion, but do you have a relationship? A relationship is with you and God. What happens between you and God when the doors are closed and nobody's watching you? Your wife is not with you, your husband is not with you. It's just you and God. What is being said? Are you praying? Are you praying at all? Are you talking to God? Do you have a relationship in place and this is where it's at Having a personal relationship with Christ, christ. That's our first point.

Speaker 2: 42:14

Okay, I have a bible script, so we're moving into our second part now, is that?

Speaker 1: 42:19

right, yes, so we're moving into our second part. We just talked about religion as a concept. Now we're talking about relationship having relationship in christ and having a personal relationship in christ. There's a few bible scriptures we can actually reference. In John 15, verse 5, it says I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him is that he will bear much fruit. From apart me you can do nothing. You know, friends, if we start building a relationship with Christ, all of those good things that should be apparent in our lives will become natural. You know, like just when people meet us, they'll already feel oh, my goodness, there's something different about this person. Why? Because they have Jesus in their lives. Dan, is there anything you want to add on that? I have another.

Speaker 2: 43:05

Bible scripture. But yeah, well, first of all, jesus said that here is how you know that you abide in me. It says that the one who keeps my words you know. So it says if you abide in my words, then you will truly be my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free. So that's. It also says whoever sinneth and that means continually sins has neither seen him nor known him. So I think that's showing both perspectives for what we've talked about With. You know, on the one hand, sin, and you can sort of sugarcoat it With, on the other hand, love and a relationship.

Speaker 1: 43:46

And look, dan, at the end of the day, you know like it comes to a point of conclusion where, if we don't have a relationship with Christ, we are lost, because that's the thing that we need. We spoke a little bit about religion. Religion might be the thing that sets you on your path to really meet Jesus. For a lot of us, in a lot of our lives, this is actually the starting point. For me, especially, it was. I went to church, but I never knew Christ until a certain point, and then everything changed. But the thing is, what was nice is religion got me to that point to meet Jesus, and from there on everything changed.

Speaker 1: 44:25

I have another bible scripture here, dan, just to end this point off Romans 8, verse 38. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord. The reason why I chose to bring up that scripture is just to let everybody that's listening know that you don't have to go somewhere or be a certain person for you to meet Jesus. You know like. You can meet Jesus right now in your living room, on your car, with you listening, and you can also meet Jesus in church. The reason why we think it's good to meet Jesus in church? Because you're around people that's also been fighting the good fight, that's people that's been walking the good walk, you know. But it all has to come down to that thing where you make a decision, where you accept the Lord in your life and from there on forth you can walk out and be transformed.

Speaker 2: 45:23

Can I add a few verses to that?

Speaker 2: 45:25

Yes, there we go it says if any man hath not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And it says whoso hath the Son hath life, and who so hath not the son hath not life. And it also says the Lord knows those who are his, and let all those who name the name of the Lord depart from iniquity. So this is really very well directed for everything that we've said and to sort of bang a lot of these nails on the head. You know where it's going in many directions and we're pointing it towards Jesus. And again, it's an actual relationship. And Jesus said not all those who say Lord, lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but they which do with the will of my father who is in heaven. So yeah, that's um, that's really really quite plain, isn't it? You know, we are supposed to love, we are supposed to be in Jesus, we are supposed to have his Holy Spirit and walk in the Spirit.

Speaker 2: 46:24

I think some of my verses I'd like to pull out. I'm sorry, but I've sort of been neglecting them. But if we could look at 2nd Hebrewss, okay, we check here, hebrews 2, right? Yeah, look, I'm just doing my best to be organized, but it's um michael's more organized than me.

Speaker 1: 46:46

So, warning against neglecting salvation, you want me to read that? Um yeah, hebrews 2, verse 1 therefore, we must pay close attention to what we have heard lest we drift away from it. For since the message declared, Hebrews 2, verse 1.

Speaker 2: 47:11

Yeah, so the reason why I've chosen my verses today and I've got a few others, which probably 2 Timothy, chapter 4, it also talks about basically us preaching, you know, and doing those sort of things. And it also talks about how people will accumulate teachers who will teach according to their own taste and fancy. And it says that they have itching ears. They want a teacher who's going to tell them what they want to hear. So you can see how everything that we're saying is sort of tied into these things and it's not, it's not just a free-for-all, you know.

Speaker 1: 47:50

Look, dan, a lot of people always look for the gospel of convenience over the gospel of truth, and what I mean by that is if you go to a church and you hear something that you don't agree with, even though it's in the Bible, some people will completely reject it and find a church that does actually say what they want to hear. And that's the problem, man, because it's not always about what I want and what I want to do in life, it's about what's right.

Speaker 2: 48:16

And what's true? That's the point of what we're saying. That's why we're quoting Bible verses, and we're quoting multiple Bible verses, not just, you know, our favorite one to tuck us into bed, that's the thing.

Speaker 1: 48:29

Okay now, dan. The big question is now We've established okay, some people have religion. It's good. Religion can set you on your path to starting your relationship with god. Now, how do you get deeper with your relationship with jesus? What things can you do?

Speaker 1: 48:45

The bible is quite clear. They give us a few very clear bible scriptures on here. Um, I think it needs to happen through your communion with God, through prayer and meditation. I have a beautiful Bible scripture here, psalm 1, verse 1 blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord and on his law. He meditates day and night.

Speaker 1: 49:14

My friends, when I'm talking about meditate here, this is not you sitting in a room humming. This is you reading your Bible and really deeply thinking and reflecting about what the Lord is trying to tell you. You know like that's one way God communicates with us. I've met so many Christians. That says, mike, you know like I want to believe in God, but God never speaks to me. I've never heard the Lord speak to me Nonsense. God can speak to us every single day through the Bible. That's why his word is given to us. You mentioned that Bible scripture before Dan, where every piece of scripture is God-breathed.

Speaker 2: 49:51

Yeah, I've actually got about four scriptures now. Amen, man, I think around that are related to that. So, first of all, jude. And Jude talks about false prophets or teachers or whatever and basically talks about hell. But he says but that's not for you, referring to Christians. And he says you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God. So this is related to what Michael's saying about praying and meditating on the scriptures.

Speaker 2: 50:22

Then there's Joshua. He said let not my word depart from your mouth, but meditate on it day and night. You shall perform everything in it that I set out for you to do. Then you will have good success. That's another one, then, because all the legalistic people say that's in the Old Testament. That was Joshua. I'm not Joshua and I'm saying if you were, you'd be smarter. And in the New Testament we've got the ones.

Speaker 2: 50:48

Well, there's study to show yourself an approved workman, and it goes on. After saying all scripture is God breathed in Timothy to say that the servant of the Lord may be fully equipped. And is that you? Are you fully equipped? You know everyone in church, not just the man with the big hat and the staff and the ropes. Who gets all the money? That's the thing. Yeah, I could keep going, but why don't you, the listener, go and look for yourself and find out if what we're saying is true? And are these scriptures in the bible, and are you supposed to meditate on it? Are you supposed to study it? Are you supposed to pray, pray, pray at all times with all kinds of prayer?

Speaker 1: 51:27

that's another one, and that's the thing. The second part of that is prayer. You know like, after meditating, you should pray a lot. Praying is when you communicate with God, friends I mentioned before. You know like not in this podcast, but to other people you know like you cannot build a relationship. Think about your closest person to you. Maybe it's a loved one, maybe it's a spouse, maybe it's a child, a sibling. Think about that person. Now ask yourself the question can you build a relationship with this person if you spend five minutes a day talking to them? The answer is probably no. And if you say that is how your relationships work, I want to see how long they're going to last.

Speaker 1: 52:08

You know like, at the end of the day, my friends but yet we all do it as Christians, even myself, I'm guilty of this. You know like, sometimes life gets so busy at the end of the day you only have a few minutes for the lord. It's like, oh, now I'm gonna spend a little bit of time with the lord. No, my friend, spend time in prayer. I know this is easier for some people than it is for others. I myself find it very difficult to to pray. I find it a lot easier to sit and read the Bible and talk about it than it is for me just to sit down and just pray. But it's something we should all do to help build our relationship with God, and not out of religion but out of the desire to build our relationship up more here Philippians 4.

Speaker 1: 52:50

Philippians 4, verse 6 do Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God, and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. If you want peace, my friends, you have to pray, because you have to establish that relationship with God. The question is not do you know about Jesus? Does Jesus know about you? Of course God knows about us, but does he know us? Does he know us? Does he know our hearts? Does he know our desires? God only knows that if we pray about it, my friends, and that is what we have to do. We have to establish that relationship.

Speaker 2: 53:34

Okay, dan, before I move on to the next point, anything you want to um, I just want to say that this really is very clear, that there there are reasons for you to pray. It's not not because we're forcing you to, you know, or just because we think that's good. And I think if you go through the New Testament, let alone the Old Testament, and even if you were to use the example of Jesus, you will see that he prayed all the time. And, yeah, it's just, you know, prayer reading the Bible, that's your spiritual growth, right there. So, you know, I could just keep on thinking of more and more verses that actually say that.

Speaker 2: 54:20

Can we go now, michael, to one of my verses? This is have we done 1 Peter, chapter 1, verse 13? No, I don't think so. Okay, so I've got a few verses which are basically telling Christians to do something. So, just like Michael was saying that we should pray, and these are again, you know, when you have, I've had people tell me, because of grace and rest, that doing something means you're being legalistic. But there are many, many things and we've mentioned prayer that it tells you that you should do, and that's. It's not that you're actually doing them because you're forced to I'll quickly read that for us 1 peter, 1, verse 13.

Speaker 1: 55:09

Therefore, preparing your minds for action and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that you will be brought to your revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he has called you to be holy, you also be holy in all your conduct. Since it is written, you shall be holy, for I am holy yes.

Speaker 2: 55:38

So there you go, something that you should actually do bang. Oh. Do I believe in Jesus? Am I saved by grace? Yes, do I have faith in Jesus? Yes, of course. That's the whole point. If you don't believe in Jesus, why on earth would you worry about being holy? I mean, come on like.

Speaker 1: 55:56

It's not legalistic, it's not saying sacrifice thou bull, you know, get their circumcised, find another hypocrite and then, like, examine his bull and see if it's too you know that's the thing, man, but you know it sprouts forth from that you know like and this actually brings us to our third point our desire to serve and follow jesus. If you build a relationship with Jesus, this thing should come naturally. And the thing is then this does come with a certain price tag. The price tag is we need to do something. And I'm going to read that for us now Matthew 16, verse 24 to 25.

Speaker 1: 56:32

Then Jesus told his disciples if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me, for whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. You know why Jesus said this, dad? It's because we need to deny ourselves. When we deny ourselves, we have to die of what we want, what Michael wants, what Michael wants out of this world, and take up what God's want, what God wants in our life. It doesn't always come easy and this process can take years and years and years, and so many people I know like at almost the end of their life. They still haven't perfected it, and I don't think any of us will ever 100% perfect this on earth. But that desire should be in us all, dan, that every single morning, when we wake up, we need to pray says lord, help me die to myself today and take up what you want me to do. And that desire could only come and exist if we have a relationship in place, because if we just have religion, I can promise you you're gonna be strong one day, and then you're gonna fall because there's nothing else to keep you going. But if you have a relationship in Christ, you're gonna feel that everything that you're doing is for this wonderful creator that changed your life Forever, that brought you the peace that you can only receive Through Jesus, and that is why it's so important, then, for us to make this choice every single day.

Speaker 1: 57:58

It's also not a one-soft thing. A lot of people think, like I'm gonna pray this in the prayer sinners, prayer once and one. My life will ever be okay. Yes, in reality, you might be safe, okay, but but is your spirit growing? I heard this beautiful figure of speech the other day, not a figure of speech, but like image. You know guy was talking and he said a plant has only two stages it is either growing or it is dying. There's no in between. There's no such thing as just chilling your plant conscious children like it can't just get to a point and just be like hey man, I'm not growing, but I'm also not dying. I I'm just happy here.

Speaker 2: 58:36

It's either growing or it's either dying well, it actually said you know that there are the different trees and it says that god will prune them you know, yes, yes, yes but on the other hand, they'll be uprooted if they don't grow. And then here's another technical one, where they say oh, you know, that's, that's judging us. And then you have the parable of the ten virgins. You know, some were foolish and some were wise. So that's another example that relates to that.

Speaker 1: 59:04

And, like I said, it comes with a little bit of a price tag. That price tag is you giving way to the things of yourself and replacing it with God and, like I said, friends, that decision needs to be made if you want to really serve God and build a relationship with him. You can't remain the same. You have to be transformed, unless if you're the perfect, most perfect person on this earth.

Speaker 2: 59:28

I would like to meet you, but most of us will have to change it, michael, as he's been sitting next to me the whole time and he didn't think hang on, could it have been him?

Speaker 1: 59:40

I wish man, I'm just joking. I wish I have another scripture here John 12, verse 26. If anyone serves me, he must follow me, and where I am there, my servant will be also. If anyone serves me, the father will honor him.

Speaker 1: 59:57

My friends, I think this is a simple choice to make. It might be more difficult for some people than it is for me. Maybe you're in a place where you're being persecuted for your faith and you saying yes to christ and building a relationship means you're probably losing your head, and that's that's a lot easier for people in a place where we don't get persecuted for our faith to speak about, to say oh okay, look, it's easy to be a Christian here because we're not being persecuted. Nobody's knocking on my door saying hey, Mike, you better denounce Christ or I will come and kill you. That doesn't happen. That doesn't happen. We're all in a place where it's relatively convenient for us to be a Christian. The only thing that you might be subject to is some of your colleagues laughing at you because you have a very alternative lifestyle now because you're a Christian. But other than that, my friends, I think it's a simple choice to make, especially for the majority of us in a place where we're not even being persecuted for our faith.

Speaker 1: 1:00:52

And then that brings me to the next point. You know like if we really root ourself in Christ and we start building a relationship, we will start to bear the fruit of the Spirit. A lot of Christians are familiar with this Bible scripture Galatians 5 is 22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control Against such things. There is no law. My friends, if you are able to tick off all of these things 100% in your life, if you are able to say your name and you're able to say love and you can almost like tick it off because you have all of these things, then you're the perfect human. You're the perfect person.

Speaker 2: 1:01:38

Again, though, we know that we are sort of. I mean, there's ones where it talks about us being sort of conformed to the image of Christ, and it says that we are transformed from glory to glory, transformed from glory to glory, and I could think of quite a few verses that also, like it says we should offer our bodies up as living sacrifice. It says we should count ourselves dead to sin but alive in Christ Jesus. It says this is the will of God. Even your sanctification Sanctification related to what we're talking about is one thing I never heard about, even though I was a Christian for 20 years. I became a Christian and I thought, like Michael was saying, I believed in Jesus, and I thought great, that's done.

Speaker 2: 1:02:25

It's all finished. You know, and like I, you know I get everything. No one told me that I had to pray or, you know, build myself up in the Holy Spirit, or that I had to. I guess I knew about love. That was easy enough. But you think, well, you know, if you're not throwing a rock at someone, that's love. So you know, I've got that covered too, and it's a process that over 20 years I've actually learned and I've sort of understood these things. And I think when we're talking about sort of bearing fruit or spiritual growth, that would be on the contrary to where we started in Romans, where we were talking about basically the state of you know things which are evil and are contrary to God.

Speaker 1: 1:03:14

Of course, but then, 100%, you know, it's definitely a process. You know like we're going to go through our lives and we meet Jesus. Everybody has a different timeline when they actually meet Jesus. I was fortunate enough to meet him at quite a young age. I've been walking the road with him for quite some time, but other people have just met him. These things are still in its infancy, you know like. They're still only learning about these concepts.

Speaker 1: 1:03:38

And the thing is, if we continue to grow our heart in Christ, if we continue to build that relationship, these things should be the things that come naturally to us. You will find yourself, if you spend a lot of time in the Lord, you'll you'll see a lot of these things will become automatic. I can definitely tell you, dan, the week that I spend more time spending in the presence of the Lord, I have a lot more patience. I'll walk around in the empty arm. Someone will bump me. I'll be like bless you, brother. You know like there might be a week where I don't spend any time with the Lord. You know like, and someone bumps me, I'm like'm like, yes, man, I want to shout at this guy, you know. So that's the thing, man. It creates a different aspect of our life, where good things are supposed to just flow from our hearts so that's very simple.

Speaker 2: 1:04:27

And we're talking about fruit now, as opposed to say hypocrisy. And Jesus said that. I forget the exact multiples, but he said some ringfold like tenfold, some a hundredfold. You know I haven't actually looked that one up for this week, but, um again, you know we talked about the fruits of the spirit. We've talked about actually being in Christ and serving Christ, being holy. You know these sort of things which are related to us. You know what we actually must do. You know that we're serving God and we're not just sort of living according to our own pleasure or sin on the other end of the scale.

Speaker 1: 1:05:11

So, dan, I think it's about time that we wrap up. I know we've spoken about quite a few things today.

Speaker 2: 1:05:17

Can we just read out 2 Timothy, chapter 4?.

Speaker 1: 1:05:21

Well, I have it here, Dan. That was the legit scripture I wanted us to end off on. Okay, perfect. 2 Timothy 4, verse 1 to 3. I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead. 2 Timothy 4, verse 1 to 3. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching but if itching ears that they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions. Dad fix you.

Speaker 1: 1:06:02

You mentioned this a little bit earlier today. You know like where's it? You know like we've spoken about religion, we've spoken about relationship. My friends, whatever you do, don't be like one of these people that cannot. If you cannot, stomach part of the gospel, don't go look for someone that's teaching it if it's not in the bible. You know like you're gonna be led astray. If you, if you want to look for a place where someone's gonna tell you that it's okay to do whatever you're doing, and you know it's not okay, then my friends, you should flee from that place. You know, at the end of the day, you know like the Bible should always be your ultimate guide. That is anything else you want to say on that.

Speaker 2: 1:06:42

I think that verse was really perfect you know, because we don't.

Speaker 2: 1:06:46

We don't want to look like we're. We're just trying to get at people and make them look bad or give ourselves approval, you know so I think, on the other hand, you know, if you started with Romans, where it talks about the sin and having a reprobate mind, and then moved to what we just read with Timothy, where it actually tells you you know about hearing the truth, and then you consider all the things that we've talked about, then that's what you should do. It actually makes sense and it keeps you safe from hell and from the devil, or from yourself, I think. To me that makes perfect sense and that's actually safety with God.

Speaker 1: 1:07:34

Amen, amen. Dan, like I said, we've spoken about a few things today. We've spoken about religion. You know what it's all about, what modern day churches say. It's still good to go to church. You just need to be aware of their teaching and also that you should always be rooted in Christ by having a relationship with Him. And, at the end of the day, my friends, if Jesus is not in your life, you should try your best to get Him as part of your life as soon as possible.

Speaker 2: 1:08:03

You need to believe and you need to have faith Exactly and you need to be saved from hell, which we've talked about. Read Romans 1, verse 18. See if it's relevant. You know anyone who's listening. Pick your Bible up and just see if we're making any of this up. See if we're just, you know, just saying what we want and making it look that way.

Speaker 1: 1:08:25

That's the thing. We'll always try to make it as Bible-based as possible, because that's the only way it should go. But, guys, that's basically it from our side today. Thank you all so much.

Speaker 2: 1:08:36

It's honestly such a blessing, you know, for me and dan, you know like we I'm I'm disappointed personally because I I was thinking, you know when the donations come in, I'm gonna roll the plate my mercedes, but today we've actually said that.

Speaker 1: 1:08:49

That was you know, it's not good so that that's okay, though, oh yeah but, in all honesty, guys, we really appreciate all of your support and your love. Um, we're really hoping that this podcast reaches who it needs to reach, and you're like we're just blessed to be part of it and just to be able to speak about these things in a place where we're not persecuted and we can just freely talk about the lord in this manner. Um, but that's all from us today, my friends. Goodbye and God bless. Yes, no-transcript.