Strengthening Your Pelvic Floor and Body Alignment Like a Badass Does with Lindsay Mumma DC

Think it’s normal to pee your pants *just a little*? Let’s think that over again. :)

Join us for a compelling conversation with Dr Lindsay Mumma, DC, an expert renowned for her holistic approach to health, who focuses on the often-overlooked areas of pelvic floor, and posture / kinematic chain alignment. Discover the profound impacts of pelvic floor dysfunction on overall wellness, alongside innovative methods for rehabilitation and maintenance through posture, breathing, and specialized exercises. Dr Mumma shares her journey and insights into treating conditions related to pregnancy, pediatrics, and middle-aged women (and men), debunking common myths about Kegel exercises and emphasizing the importance of chiropractic care. Furthermore, delve into the interconnectedness of the body's kinematic system, with a special focus on the jaw's role in whole-body health! Learn a simple exercise to relieve jaw tension, understand the significance of the temporomandibular joint, and how small adjustments can lead to major improvements in health. This discussion not only enlightens on specific health issues but also advocates for a comprehensive view on personal health care, offering practical advice for enhancing quality of life through awareness, education, and holistic practice.

00:00 Introduction and Meeting Dr. Mumma

00:28 Personal Journey and Discovering Pelvic Floor Rehab

01:22 The Impact of Pelvic Floor Dysfunction

01:54 The Importance of Understanding Your Body

02:49 The Role of the Pelvic Floor in Physical Activity

04:55 Understanding the Impact of Epidurals and Childbirth

06:24 The Misconceptions and Realities of Childbirth

07:36 The Importance of Natural Childbirth and Body Function

13:50 The Role of the Pelvic Floor in Breathing and Stability

16:07 The Misunderstanding of Kegel Exercises, and what NOT to do that you thought you “should”

17:34 The Connection Between Breathing, Posture, and Pelvic Floor

20:27 The Importance of Understanding Pelvic Floor Dysfunction

27:13 The Role of the Pelvic Floor in Singing and Athletic Performance

36:26 Understanding the Core and Its Connection to the Pelvic Floor

37:36 The Importance of Functional Movements

38:05 Understanding the DNS Model and Abdominal Wall Activation

38:45 The Partner Shove Exercise and Stability

40:58 The Impact of Early Movement Patterns on Adult Function

41:44 The Connection Between Martial Arts and Functional Movement

43:07 The Role of the Diaphragm in Stability and Movement

45:33 The Importance of Nasal Breathing

46:19 The Impact of Concussions on Movement and Stability

55:53 The Polyvagal Theory and the Role of Breath, Sound, and Movement

01:08:11 The Power of Posture and Breathing in Pelvic Floor Recovery

01:09:14 The Role of the Jaw in Pelvic Floor Function

01:11:38 The Interconnectedness of the Body's Systems

For more from Dr Mumma, head to her website here: https://www.trianglecrc.com/

Dr Mumma’s book for further info and strengthening tips related to strengthening the pelvic floor and posture in general: “Your Pelvic Floor Sucks: but it doesn’t have to”  https://a.co/d/4jkYpGh

Transcript

0:00

Hello and welcome to the What Really Makes a Difference podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Becca Whittaker. I've been a doctor of natural health care for over 20 years and a professional speaker on health and vitality, but everything I thought I knew about health was tested when my own health hit a landslide and I became a very sick patient. I've learned that showing up for our own health and vitality is a step by step journey that we take for the rest of our lives. And this podcast is about sharing some of the things that really make a difference on that journey with you. So grab your explorer's hat while we get ready to check out today's topic. My incredible guest network and I will be sharing some practical tools, current science and ancient wisdom that we all need, no matter what stage we are at in our health and vitality. I've already got my hat on and my hand out, so let's dive in and we can all start walking each other home. Oh, I'm so excited to introduce you to Dr. Lindsey MoMA today. It is going to be a great show and she's just one of my favorite people. So I met Dr. MoMA when she was presenting at the largest chiropractic conference in the world. It. It happens in Vegas and we go every year. And she was teaching about pelvic floor stability and biomechanics. And her teachings just resonated with me so well that I dumped the rest of the speakers that I was planning on going to watch. So that I could listen to all three parts of what she had to say. And I was just getting back in the mode where I could physically pay attention and take notes at the same time. And I wrote just note after note and I still refer to them today. Side note. I was still in a wheelchair when I met Dr. MoMA and I saw her in the hallway. And I just stopped her. And I knew immediately that she was one of my people. And I thought I may not look like I'm one of your people, because I'm sitting here in this wheelchair. Oh. But I am. And so it's been a joy to have her be a part of my recovery. I took what she was teaching and integrated it into my own recovery and it has made such a huge difference. And that's why I'm passionate about bringing her on today. To be able to share this information with you. So many of us are taught as we age that there are some things that just have to come along with aging. That it's normal. And one of those things, especially for women, is that it's normal to pee your pants a little after you have a baby or that you should just give up on ever jumping on the trampoline again. And if you're going to lift weights, if you're in CrossFit a little bit, we'll come out, just wear a pad. It's fine. We don't talk about it. And I have learned that is so destructive. And we don't just get that message as women, men get all kinds of message. Men get all kinds of messages about urinary tract health. As well, and this isn't just about the urinary tract or the pain in the butt that it is to feel like you're 85 years old when you're only 32. What this is about is the health of your body, the health of those tissues in your pelvic floor, the muscles that are intended to hold up your organs and your bladder. And to support your core and your hips and to make it so blood flow and nerve flow. Can really flow appropriately. And when it is not, then we get those indicators like problems with urine problems, with stress incontinence problems with hip musculature. With trigger points that just will not go away around our gluteals our hips with intercourse that is painful or that we can't feel very well. And there can just be so much that goes into it. So Dr. MoMA is my expert that I call on that I resource. And that I traveled to attend. So I'm so happy to bring her to you a little bit more about her. She was named one of the leading physicians in the world. By the international association of healthcare professionals. And above and beyond the academic requirements of becoming a doctor of chiropractic, which are rigorous. She's also completed over a thousand continuing education credit hours in many different areas. I was talking to her once and she said, she's thinking about just making it wallpaper in her office, all the certificates of completion. Things like rehabilitation, developmental kinesiology, pediatrics, pregnancy, nutrition, pain management, sports injuries, TMJ treatment, disc. Pain neuroplasticity neurology, neurodynamics visceral manipulation, and she is certified to do all kinds of things by a Prague school of rehabilitation. Motion, palpation Institute, active release technique, Mackenzie, just lots of big names. And in addition to that, she's also an instructor for the motion palpation Institute and move mentors where she's teaching other chiropractors, how to be better chiropractors. As well as students and she's the owner of triangle chiropractic and rehabilitation center in Raleigh, North Carolina. And just a pretty bad-ass human being. So without further ado, I give you my conversation with Dr. Lindsay MoMA.

Track 1: 5:16

All right. I am so excited to start this conversation with you, Dr. Muma. It's just fun to talk to you, let alone be taught by you. So thank you so much for joining us today.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 5:26

I am really glad to be here and it's also really fun to talk to you and to see you in such a different space than where you were when I first met you, which is almost Exactly. two years ago.'cause it was February of 22 when I met you.

Track 1: 5:41

I am just so touched that you remember that. Yeah. The first time I met you, I was in a wheelchair at Parker and I at Parker, which is like one of the biggest chiropractic convention in the world. And I heard you speak and that was revelatory for me because in practice I worked primarily, I mean, I worked with a lot of different people, but I specialized in treating pregnant patients and pediatrics and you know, middle-aged women that also were trying to figure out just life while they're exercising and. And doing so much activity. What I found though, were patterns that I would try to fix that would keep coming back. And though I specialized in a lot of that, I did not know pelvic floor rehab very much. And when you started talking, I just thought, this is what I have been

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 6:31

this is the piece.

Track 1: 6:33

10 years, and let alone the other patients, this is me. Right?

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 6:37

Yeah,

Track 1: 6:38

Which, which I'm not saying was what put me in a wheelchair, but it was one of the first things I tried to be able to do was to work on my pelvic floor. After hearing you second time I saw you, I finally was out of the wheelchair. We had brought it along, but I wasn't using it. I was using a walking stick, which made me much happier. And then when I flew out to take a course from you, then by the end of the time with you, I wasn't even using the walking stick like all the way home, my own two feet. Pretty

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 7:09

was, that was one of the coolest you know, I always tell people I'm not doing treatment in the courses because realistically, you know, when you're a patient of mine and you come in, we do an hour long initial appointment at my office. And so I'm getting your whole health history, I'm getting all sorts of information about your emotional, mental as well as physical health and what's happened to your body and in your body and around your body. And then I put my hands on you and I do a full physical exam and we are doing neuro testing. And for me to just meet a patient and like get a quick recap of like, here's my problem area, that's not treatment, that's not what I'm doing. Right, But you know, I had said if, if you want to be one of the demo people, like it is really, really helpful to be able to show some kind of techniques. Do you mind talking about this? Like what, what we did? So,

Track 1: 7:58

shares if they help.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 8:00

Yeah, but we did, we worked on your epidural scar and it was like massively impactful to see the immediate difference. And I've just, I, it was probably 2017 the first time that I had, like, I had been, I was like, oh, okay, there's, there's some scar tissue that happens with epidurals that would, that makes sense to me. Anytime that we're like entering the body with this kind of beveled edge hollow bore needle, there is going to be some scar tissue that's developed. But a physiatrist had sent a woman to me who was 14 months postpartum and she had what looked like main syndrome actually. And there's a discussion about whether or not main syndrome is actually real or not, but it's effectively referral from the TL junction into like kind of over the SI joint and then into the groin anteriorly. And so with.

Track 1: 8:55

referral from what's happening in the upper, lower back,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 8:57

Yep. down into the in into the pelvis and then into the front part of the pelvis as well. And so yes, so a,

Track 1: 9:04

doctors that treat pelvic floor a lot, so I will just interject. If you don't know what we're

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 9:10

Thank you. Thank you. But so she had this referral and was sent to him and he's a really wonderful practitioner and he refers a lot of patients to me. He's like, these people don't need injections. They actually need movement, and here's someone who can help you. And so he sent her to me and I just did a skin on skin palpation of her TL junction like where the rounded part of your upper back meets the lower like the extended part of your lower back. And when I had my hand there, she was like, oh, that is the symptom that I'm getting into my groin. And I literally just kind of like lightly touched it. It made it worse. So when I did kind of like a, a more firm palpation just means to feel with your hands. And when I did a more firm palpation of that region where she had had the epidural injection, it immediately caused the symptoms that she was getting. Over her pelvis and in into the front. She was like, oh, that is the pain that I'm getting. So when I lightly touched it, she like almost jumped off my table and I was like, this is interesting. And I could feel the scar tissue from her epidural. So she, the, the thing is so many women get epidurals for mismanagement type of reasons, right? Because we tell women that. You know, breathing techniques aren't gonna help you, and the pain is gonna be too much. We kind of like get in their head ahead of labor. They arrive in labor. We, you know, put them on a Pitocin drip because they're not far enough along for us to have really actually admitted them. But we don't give women any tools for outside of the hospital for preparing for labor. And then when, once you've put someone on Pitocin, it is nearly impossible to tolerate the intense contractions of Pitocin without the humanitarian meeting of that with an epidural because. A contraction is met with a release of endorphins. But if that contraction doesn't have the relaxation that comes after a, a contraction, then there is no endorphin release. And those synthetically boosted contractions are so much more intense and it like way more than like, you know, yeah, I had a natural birth and that like being a badge of honor, which it's not, but when women say that it's, it's actually like kind of one upped by the women who had Pitocin and no epidural, because that is like insane levels of contraction. What's that?

Track 1: 11:32

remember learning from Jeannie Om, who is one of the people responsible for really bringing pregnancy care to the forefront of chiropractic, the availability for chiropractors to learn more about what it really is. But she was talking about how a normal contraction will help you. Like when you have a normal contraction, you are helped by your own little mini pharmacy inside. And if you have an abnormal contraction, you skip all that. And I remember thinking before I talked to Jenny Gen, I thought people who delivered at home without pain medication were. A crazy hippies and B like mu, like must not love their kids as much because they were gonna like surely get in complicated problems. And then as I listen to what the body can naturally do in delivery, that is amazing. And I realize there are circumstances, I'm not an advocate that you have to deliver at home and you

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 12:31

Right? No.

Track 1: 12:32

medication. But it is amazing what we are naturally born with if we will let it happen. Right. Most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time. She talked about how America, and just in the last 50, I guess now it's been 70 years, was when in Western medicine women started delivering in hospitals or having the medications and she invited us to think about the eons of women before

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 12:58

Who didn't have pain mitigating techniques. Yeah. They weren't, they literally had their internal pharmacy like you were saying, and their own response. So Dr. Grantley Dickery is actually one of the men who's kind of responsible for helping us get back to more natural childbirth practices because in the era of Twilight sleep, where they were literally knocking women out and they're like extracting babies, they, Dr. Grantley Dicked said we need to go back to. The, the ways that we used to do this. He had witnessed women kind of like in slums who hadn't had any exposure to much of western medicine yet. And he saw this woman give birth and she just kind of like went over to the side by herself and, and like kind of squatted down and gave birth. And he asked her like, why didn't you, like, why didn't you want anything for the pain? And she was like, was I supposed to feel pain? Like she didn't, she didn't know, she hadn't been conditioned to think that she was supposed to be in pain when she gave birth because she had witnessed women giving birth. And it was like just a thing that happened. I mean, we're the only mammals who are scared of birth. Like you, a giraffe isn't like, oh, I don't know. I, my, my due date's coming up, right? Like, you just, the pregnancy unfolds and when the baby's ready to come, the baby comes. Anyway, we've gone off on a, an incredible tangent here,

Track 1: 14:21

tangent that I was not even planning on, but I,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 14:24

but the point is that epidurals.

Track 1: 14:26

there's some important things. Number

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 14:28

Yes.

Track 1: 14:28

If people are interested in that topic, there are such amazing references in books, and I don't mean you have to be a crazy hippie, and I don't mean anything as bad if you've had an epidural. An epidural. I don't mean any of that. What I do mean is there are options and choices. I remember my mom saying that when she went to have her first baby, she came in the emergency room and she started screaming with the pain, and the doctor looked at her and said, Pam. What are you doing? She was like, well, I'm having a baby. And he's like, you are wasting all of that energy. I need you to please start going inside. And every time that you feel something like that, I want you to move that down instead of screaming mindlessly, and I bet you'll feel better. Which sounds, sounds careless, but she still talks about it because she used it every pregnancy. And she was like, I did feel better. I was scared. And I had seen and heard that you're supposed to scream. So I did. I, on the other hand, thought I was gonna meditate my way through and I was gonna hypno birth this baby out, and it was not gonna be pain. It was gonna be pressure. I had pelvic floor dysfunction. So getting that baby out was a whole different trick. And I remember being on the water. At home on my hands and knees, literally just sobbing, snot out from the nose. Tears like saying they lied. This really hurts. This is pain. This is not pressure. This is pain. But then, you know, full disclosure, I also, because I had pelvic floor dysfunction, could not activate my muscles well. I tore six places trying to get that baby

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 16:09

Oh my gosh.

Track 1: 16:09

The next birth was miserable. And then I finally started finding some people that knew what they were, go, what they were doing. So that scar that I had, the scar tissue that you felt was not actually from an epidural,'cause I had babies at home. It actually was from a spinal puncture. So I had, when I started to not be able to move my body and not be able to speak, and we were trying to figure out what was going on, I had a spinal puncture done and it was. Done terribly and they tore my spinal cord. So the reason I'm circling back to that is because you talk about how injuries along our spinal cord can create traction in the scar tissue. So whether that be an epidural, a lumbar puncture, you know, injuries in general. When that scar tissue happens, it can pull up, pull around the nerves, create tension on the nerves, and just full body tension that can affect everything below it just as when you're paralyzed.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 17:10

To kind of finish the thought, the, you had a like an epidural spinal injection for like type of scar, which was very helpful for demonstrating, okay, so here's how we would use cupping. Here's how we would do some myofascial release, and here's how we would work on that scar tissue. And so you volunteered for that. And what we got to witness while you were on the table, and I did some treatment on that, was like you physically felt all the way into your spinal cord, the scar tissue that was there.

Track 1: 17:43

as soon as you touched it, it was full body sweat. I was terrified, like I was,'cause when he put the the needle in, I could feel it. I wasn't numb yet. So I felt exactly what it feels like to have a needle be pushed into your spinal nerves. And as soon

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 17:58

And, and to need to stay still for that. Right. Which

Track 1: 18:01

you were. Kind with me.'cause you could tell I was about to pass out

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 18:06

I'll hold you.

Track 1: 18:08

But I thought of that, you know we're gonna talk about what pelvic floor dysfunction is, but it can come from so many means. So let's talk about that because if you've had c-section scar, that can create all kinds of traction and problems, anything happening with your spine. But I was a martial artist and I was in multiple car accidents. I was an athlete. I had all kinds of pelvic floor craziness going on. So let's talk about what pelvic floor dysfunction is and then we can talk about how you may have gotten it and then move on into some things that we can do to help in rehab now. So how would someone know if they have problems with their pelvic floor? What

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 18:48

Well, you, the first sign is that someone has told you not to worry about it. That's the unfortunate part about pelvic floor dysfunction is that everybody keeps hand waving it along as if it's not any sort of big deal. Because an estimated one in four women has some amount of pelvic floor dysfunction, and it's a little bit less for men. And I think that's because less activities happen in a man's pelvic floor. And they have less opportunities for pressure leakage. So the pelvic floor in a woman has three holes in it and the pelvic floor, and a man has two holes in it. So the urethra of the vagina and the anus in a woman's pelvic floor, and then the, excuse me, the urethra and the anus in a man's pelvic floor, the diaphragm, which above that, and this is where like kind of getting into the epidural, that region of your. Spine is where the diaphragm attaches into your spine is right in the TL junction area, which is where they do an epidural, which is where you had your lumbar spine puncture. Those where that attaches is crucial for helping to create the upper portion of the, kind of like integral part of the core. So the diaphragm has three holes, so it has and it also has three functions. The pelvic floor has a few more functions because it is involved in sexual and reproductive function as well as posture and stability. And in breathing. So we found from research that Paul Hodges and SAPs did years ago that the pelvic floor is actually part of your respiratory system, which is pretty cool. And when you have dysfunction of the diaphragm, you are going to automatically have dysfunction of the pelvic floor. When you have dysfunction of the pelvic floor, you will also automatically have dysfunction of the diaphragm because they work synergistically. So the diaphragm sits inside of the ribcage, is a dome shaped muscle. It has three holes inside of it. The pelvic floor opposes it basically within the abdominal canister when the diaphragm lowers on your inhale. The pelvic floor also lowers when the diaphragm raises the pelvic floor raises unfortunately. Most people only know that the pelvic floor can be tightened in a Kegel exercise. And if there's anything wrong with the pelvic floor, then the recommendation is to Kegel. And so the issue with that is that the dot, the pelvic floor is a multi-layered sling of muscles that goes from the pubic synthesis like your pubic bone at the front all the way to your tailbone at the back. So it, the muscles of the levator an I group, will attach into the coys and along the back part of the pelvis. That sling of muscles is helping to hold you upright. It also helps you to move. It also controls the blood flow returning from and going to the lower extremity, as well as lymphatic drainage. And it also is having a role in your tion and your bowel movements, as well as sexual function and like excretion of OV ovulatory fluid and cervical fluid. And childbirth. So they, there are a million things that are happening in it. And we know one exercise, like if you hurt your shoulder, there's like 4,000 exercises you can do for it. The pelvic floor is so much more important than the shoulder. And if you ask any practitioner or any lay person, it's like, oh yeah, Kegel, right? Like, are you kidding me? This is, this is all we can do for this incredible area of the body.

Track 1: 22:04

it's only how we poop, pee. Have babies enjoy sex, keep ourselves upright, move without being injured and breathe, I

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 22:11

here's what you can do, Kegel,

Track 1: 22:13

Let's do that one. And I remember,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 22:15

embarrassing honestly.

Track 1: 22:17

Kegel is all I had heard about as well, but you talked about how Kegel exercises often are not helpful. In fact, could be harmful. So I was having a really hard time with my last two pregnancies. Now I know why. But in feeling like my baby was just like going to drop out, I was working actively as a chiropractor and I was like, had the belly bands and the everything to kind of help hold it up. But I remember getting the advice to do Kegel exercises. That's what everybody said.'cause if you do the Kegel exercises, that will be stronger. But something felt. I really wrong when I did it, and so I ended up kind of intuitively going with what felt good or did not feel good to my body. What felt good was trying to exercise my glutes. What did not feel good was Kegels. I had an awesome midwife that said, actually, in this case, I don't think Kegels are the way for you, but I'm not sure what is the way for you and let's just listen to your body. This was, again, we know something is happening. Same as in clinical practice with my patients. I know I'm not, I know I'm not getting to this, but I don't know what it is. When you talked about Kegels, it was exactly how I felt, so I know most of the people that are listening to this, if they have wondered how they can help their pelvic floor would've been told to do Kegels. Like at every stop sign,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 23:36

if that worked, then one in four women would not have pelvic floor dysfunction. There was a case.

Track 1: 23:42

truthfully.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 23:43

Yeah, I, it's definitely more than that because, so a 2018 poll was done on women age 50 to 80. The women who were under 65, it was like just under half of them had stress urinary incontinence over 65. That number jumped to 51%. So over half of the women reported having some amount of urinary incontinence that actually disrupted their daily life. Like they, when they arrived to a new place, they would have to make sure that they knew where the bathroom was because they were expecting to have leaking, it changed their wardrobe, et, et cetera, like it was impacting their daily life. 67% of those women did not report their symptoms to their doctor.

Track 1: 24:19

Yeah.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 24:20

So like in this random poll that they did, right? Like, Hey, we'd like to talk to you about what's going on in your body. They answered the question, but when it came to actually reporting this health related information to their physician, they didn't. And I think part of it is gonna be because they've been embarrassed. Part of it is just gonna be because they hear that this happens to other people and they therefore have attributed common to mean normal. But it is not normal to pee your pants when you have, and the, the other part of it is that we we're like embarrassed about this area and already kind of disconnected from it. And then we attach shame to it. Like, oh, I'm not supposed to pee my pants, but like, I guess everybody does this. So it's just one of those things, but we're not gonna talk about it. and then.

Track 1: 25:04

now I'm 87 years old.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 25:05

Yeah, exactly. Like it's just a, it's a complete mismatch of what's actually happening within the body. So if what we do is conically contract an area that's already tight, so what that means is shorten and tighten. So a concentric contraction is like thinking about a typical bicep curl where you are like bringing a weight from your hand up toward your shoulder. And then the centric or lengthening contraction of would be when you have the load in your hand and you lower the weight back down so that your elbow is fully straightened out. That ecentric activity of the bicep is actually probably where most of the magic for pelvic floor training is because if all you have is shortening of the pelvic floor, then when the diaphragm lowers. It's just gonna run into resistance. Well, you still have to breathe. Your diaphragm lowering is actually how you breathe. So if you can't breathe by lowering your diaphragm in order for air to be pulled into your lungs, then you'll elevate your shoulders. So then people are walking around wearing their traps as earrings because their upper shoulders are so tight that they're just elevated and and tight all the time. And tight does not mean strong. So the same thing happening in people's traps is happening in their pelvic floor because they're not breathing appropriately, because they're holding too much tension in their pelvic floor. Or they're holding too much tension in their pelvic floor because they're not breathing appropriately. So it's kind of chicken or the egg situation. But if we don't breathe and allow the diaphragm to lower, then our breath has to go up into our upper chest and we elevate our shoulders in order to breathe. That's completely inappropriate, but that's how most people are breathing, and they do that 12 to 16 times every single minute of the day. So they're breathing and doing repetitions of shoulder shrugs, making their shoulders tighter, their pelvic floor tighter, and none of it's working together well. And then as soon as the sneeze comes along, it's like that pelvic floor never stood a chance. Of course, you leaked. You've been holding tension in it all day the whole time, and any additional load is just too much.

Track 1: 27:03

I am gonna ask you more about breathing too, because I love what you write about in your book. So I. Your book, your pelvic floor sucks, but it doesn't have to, is a fantastic guide for anybody wondering more about pelvic floor. There's exercises in it that are easy to do and that are, you walk through with detail. There's talking about breathing, posture, all kinds of things that we're gonna get into today. But I'm gonna go back to a few things you talked about. Number one, you said a tight muscle does not necessarily mean a strong muscle, and I think that is imperative for people to understand. If you're trapezius muscles, your upper shoulder muscles are really locked up, that doesn't necessarily mean they're strong. A really tight back does not mean that your back is strong and ready to go do a whole bunch of athletic

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 27:48

And the other part of that that people often misconstrue is tight abs being strong. If you have tight abs, if that means that your core is strong, that actually means your core is dysfunctional. You need to be able to have relaxation in your abdomen in order to be functional. And the one example that I always give because he is pretty is the soccer player, Christiana Ronaldo, he is just a gorgeous person. And when he is on the cover of like GQ Magazine or whatever, he's got like, you know, a 15 pack because he has like abs for days. But if you see a still shot of him right before he kicks a soccer ball, he has this beautiful expansion of his abdominal canister. And so what we can learn from that is that in actual function we need to see expansion of the abdomen and not that tightened six pack. So when he poses for a magazine, because he's pretty, and people like to look at him, he's definitely going to have short tight abs. But when he actually goes to boot a soccer ball, you know, yards down the field, he has relaxation with eccentric activation of his abdomen. And that's the part that everybody's missing because most people are trying to cue. Abdominal stability by drawing the abdomen in. And it's completely wrong. Like I don't have enough hubris to think that like the way that Lindsay Muma does things is the best way to do everything. I learn new things every day. I'm like, oh, I was doing that wrong. Definitely needed to change that up. But I think the way that the DNS model, so DNS is dynamic neuromuscular stabilization, and that's where all of the rehab information that I preach about all of the time has come from. I finished my certification, so I'm a officially a DNS practitioner and the way that the DNS model, thank you. The way that the DNS model portrays core function is the right way, honestly. And the reason why I feel so confident in that is because it's not new tricks. So your baby is born. Peeing their pants and with a diastasis of their rectus abdom muscle bellies. Babies are born with a non-functioning pelvic floor and a separation of their ab muscles. So what do you see in the postpartum time period? Non-functioning, pelvic floor separation of the abdominal wall muscles. So what do we do for babies in order for them to establish core function and to be able to learn how to control their bladder intentionally? Do we teach them to Kegel or to suck their belly button to their spine? No, we sure do not. And what's really mind blowing to me, I share this in my book and it was from a mentor of mind from Prague, who's one of the DNS instructors, Martina Jessica. And she shared in a course that I took in like 2018 and my brain, like I turned into that emoji with the brain explosion. I was like, oh my gosh. When she said that kids will potty train around the same time that they learn to jump. So this differs for kids? Yes. Because, so kids will, will jump between two and three, which is when they potty train. Right? And so you'll, the, the effort of the pelvic floor and the control of the pelvic floor is actually what's allowing them the ability to leave the ground, like with confidence to be able to jump and land. And so they potty trained around that time because that is when they have full cognitive control of their pelvic floor. Now you could go down the rabbit hole and like argue, elimination communication could happen certainly way earlier than that. Which it can. But the, for like a traditional potty training where like we have kids in diapers and then we're like talking with them about their cognition of how they perceive their bladder being full and then needing to go to the bathroom. That happens when they learn to jump. And I, when I learned that, I was like, that is so brilliant and it makes so much sense. And we don't teach kids. Okay, well Kegel, that way you can jump. But that's what we tell women who are like, oh, well, I, I leak urine when I run, jump, laugh, cough, or sneeze. So we're like, okay, well pull your pelvic floor up to your eyeballs and see what happens. Mm-Hmm. What a terrible idea.

Track 1: 31:46

So two things. Number one, I sing

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 31:49

Mm-Hmm.

Track 1: 31:49

a choir that is a amazing choir and they just pretty much let me come'cause I'm nice. There's a woman that I love who is a fantastic singer. She's been on this podcast before, but she was teaching me a voice lesson. It was the first voice lesson I've ever had from her. And she was trying to explain to me how to engage the muscles differently because I thought singing comes from your respiratory diaphragm. So I was holding tension in my respiratory diaphragm and trying to like push out to get the voice. She was trying to explain to me how to do it with my lower muscles. And I finally stopped and looked at her and I'm like, are you trying to tell me to push out on my pelvic floor? And she's like, yes. I'm like, oh gosh. We just talk pelvic

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 32:30

Just, just use, use the vernacular that I'm used to.

Track 1: 32:34

She said that she found the real power and freedom in her voice when she was doing a, a, a bit with a choir where she had to run down the aisle and jump on the stage. And as she jumped, then she's supposed to hit this loud high note and she said, I realized the jumping helped the sound come out. And then I just found the lower part of my abdomen where I could push out. So what you're talking about with the pretty, pretty soccer player is the same as voice, is the same as all of us. We are often taught that to have a pelvic, better pelvic floor and a better core, you need to suck in and pull up. So, I mean, for years I was told and not just, it wasn't from Instagram then it was from literal college classes or graduate school classes that were supposed to suck in. I remember hearing to do a Kegel, I should pretend that I have, that I'm drawing a pencil into my vagina, which

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 33:29

Yes. What a really good

Track 1: 33:31

fun thing to do then, or a blueberry was like, oh, if you don't want something sharp, just gently cradle a blueberry up and gently cradle it down 10 times at every stop sign. And that did nothing for me. But I remember also like wanting to suck in and tuck in, but what that makes is something that is tight all the time, but not strong and

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 33:52

tight. Not

Track 1: 33:53

back to what you said, to kind of like, teach it and resell it in. If we are holding things tight all the time, that cause problems with our breathings, with our breathing. They cause problem with our posture and they can make us weaker. In general. It makes it so our diaphragm doesn't work and it makes it so our muscles are so stressed that it puts more pressure on it. So when you say stress incontinence, if people don't know what that means, incontinence means you are not holding your pee in. And there are times when your body is naturally more stressed, like when you're pregnant. I remember my first pregnancy, we moved back to an area where I had a lot of allergies and we were getting the old leaves and this other plant that I'm allergic to out of the little like window sills and I was pregnant and I kept sneezing and every sneeze like 10 times a day. My husband still laughs'cause he would hear me sneeze and then be like, shit over. No.'cause I'd have to go in and change my underwear and like 10 times a day. So. That is more stress from the baby sitting more on the bladder and also my pelvic floor muscles. You talk about them being a sling, so I picture them as like a series of hammocks that are holding up everything in your body

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 35:06

Yep. And if you have tension in them and then you add the weight of a baby, then That's that's too much tension for your pelvic floor to withstand It is completely possible to go through pregnancy with zero urinary leakage a hundred percent possible. I know, because I did it.

Track 1: 35:23

that's you, you didn't do it and then you did it,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 35:26

No, I did it. And so, so both of my pregnancies, I had no urinary incontinence. After my second, so my, my second pregnancy, I had an increase in urinary urgency. I. And later discovered that I had actually developed bladder spasms. And so some of that actually was mitigated when we cleaned up some of the dirty electricity in our house. And did some EMF mitigation techniques. Which I mean, that's just like a whole separate rabbit hole, right? But hole, but it,

Track 1: 35:55

say that for another day,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 35:56

we'll save that for another topic. But and then I also just had to like completely change. So I had, after my second son was born, then I actually had some urge incontinence. I didn't have any stress urinary incontinence. I could jump, I could run, I could laugh, I could sneeze and I wouldn't have any urinary leakage, but I had urge incontinence. And so what that means is that when I had to go to the bathroom, I didn't, like, I just got the message that I needed to go to the bathroom right now and would have leakage that that happened. And so that actually.

Track 1: 36:27

if I was running in from the garage, and I'm like, ha ha ha. Like to the back.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 36:32

I have to go, to the

Track 1: 36:32

go, mom. Go, go. That's urge

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 36:36

for you. Yes. That's urge incontinence. And so I, I also had two autoimmune conditions that were diagnosed after my second was born which are subsequently no longer a diagnoses for me because healing is always possible. But I, I, I went through a whole journey myself of having pelvic floor dysfunction and realizing what things worked and what things didn't work. And so it is significantly less common to have urge incontinence on its own. It's way more common to have stress urinary incontinence, which you increase stress on the bladder and therefore you have leakage of, of urine regardless of like how full the bladder is or isn't. Urge incontinence is different. So I actually had I. I had sclerotherapy of hemorrhoids during my second pregnancy. So they did a sclerosing technique for hemorrhoid that I had, that had thrombosis, which is a version of pelvic floor dysfunction in my second pregnancy.

Track 1: 37:33

poofed out

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 37:34

Yes. and was not able to put it back in. So I had sclerotherapy and it did nerve damage to my pelvic floor. And so as a result of that, it was a years long process of returning normal function, but I was absolutely unwilling to accept that this was just my lot in life that like, okay, well I had two babies. I went through two pregnancies without any incontinence. So why on earth would I then accept that after a beautiful home birth where I had no tearing and no, no stitches needed in my perineum that I, I, well, I had like a scrape on my perineum, but it wasn't anything that actually required any intervention and I had good healing and I had no no overt symptoms. Why would I accept that? I just am not able to wait until I have to go to the bathroom to actually go to the bathroom. Like, it, it, it didn't make sense to me and I was not willing to accept that. And I think that like that level of tenacity is sometimes needed because so many women, so I typically talk about women and I started, you know, by saying that women have more things that are happening in their pelvic floor, right? Like men are not, the biggest thing they ever push out is a kidney stone. Right? But, but we also have more holes than males do. So there's more opportunity for there to be less appropriate pressure management of the intraabdominal pressure within the abdominal cavity. But men also do have.

Track 1: 38:55

Absolutely.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 38:56

Incontinence that happens. So specifically benign prostatic hypertrophy. The, the, the saying is that like you, you're, if you live long enough, every man is gonna get that like that at some point the prostate just enlarges. I don't really believe that because I don't think that our bodies are designed to dysfunction, I believe firmly and have experienced personally that our bodies are designed to function and they're always trying to achieve that state of homeostasis. Again, they're always trying to get to our normal homeostasis rather than continue to express dysfunction when they're expressing dysfunction. It's for a purpose. So the prostate is increasing in size because we don't have enough nutrient into input going into the system, et cetera. And there's not enough movement into the pelvic cavity in order to create blood flow. And men have pelvic floor dysfunction, but they don't have over it. Symptoms of its weren't doing anything about it.

Track 1: 39:46

Of the helpers for benign prosthetic hypertrophy is helping with the lymph flow,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 39:50

yes, yes.

Track 1: 39:51

I know there is different forms of massage to do to do all that if it is getting backed up in flow of blood or inflow of lymphatic. And that again, is a problem with movement. So our lymphatic system is only moved when muscles move against it or when, you know, when it's that deep. And if the pelvic floor is not moving very well, then things are not gonna be moving. This is probably a really good time to pause and say, I was going to initially say, what are the symptoms of pelvic floor? We're sort of getting through that, but it would be like stress incontinence, urge incontinence in also inability to hold your bowels. I've definitely met some

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 40:27

Yeah. Vow incontinence is another one.

Track 1: 40:29

have had that symptoms and, and that is not a fun one. Hemorrhoids

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 40:33

Hemorrhoids are another one. And then pelvic organ prolapse is the other big one.

Track 1: 40:37

Yes. And as a chiropractor, I will say a big symptom I look for is if we are adjusting and it's not holding or if the back seems to lack some stability. If someone is really, has it like a sway back or has their butt poking out a lot, or is always tucked in, I figure there's something going on with the

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 40:53

So in the DNS model, when the, the back is super arch like that, we refer to that as an open scissor position because if you think about a pair of scissors that's open, the rib cage is flared up and the pelvis is kind of angled downward when now we don't have the stacking of the rib cage on top of the pelvis. We don't have the stacking of the diaphragm on top of the pelvic floor, and so they cannot work synchronistically because they're no longer opposing each other. So that is a mismanagement of that pressurized system. We want the core to actually be like a can of spin drift or LaCroix. I don't wanna talk about soda, but

Track 1: 41:27

just gonna say that

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 41:28

Yep.

Track 1: 41:29

this is how I explain the core to people. When people say core. Often they think we are talking about the pretty, pretty muscles in the front, and those actually in my mind, are some of the least

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 41:38

The least important. Yep. I am team no sit ups for life until I learn otherwise. But that's what, like when we, when we look back at how children develop, they don't do sit ups. They roll to their side in order to get up. And they're so much faster in doing that. It's, it's an effective human movement to roll to your side in order to facilitate getting up. Whereas if you do a sit up, you're literally stuck there, right? Like you sit up and then you don't, like, there's, there's nowhere else for you to go unless you've used MO momentum to get there. Like doing a sit is a dead end movement. You don't have anywhere to go from there. So it doesn't make sense to do that because it's not a translatable human movement. And that's what, like, that's why I really do think that the DNS model of the way that we are looking at the core and the way that we address function from the synergy of the diaphragm on top of the pelvic floor and their, and the ability to eccentrically activate the abdominal wall. Rather than simply concentric. So that's that lengthening activation of the abdominal wall. That's why I think that this is the best model. Yep. And so when we talk about the outward movement of, of the abdominal wall, it's not like full what's called a el Salva, right? We're like, you're like straining and bearing down and pushing everything into the pelvic floor because I, we don't want patients doing that either. What we want is for them to be able to have outward stability. So one of the exercises that I describe in my book is called the Partner Shove. And what I, I, I love doing this exercise with patients because I tell'em, I'm like, okay, I want you to stabilize like how any coach you've ever had has told you, or even how like some of your doctors have told you, or how your yoga instructor, specifically your Pilates instructor typically,'cause they often talk about drawing in the abdomen. I want you to stabilize like you think you're supposed to. And then I lean into them just a little bit and they fall right over. Like, I'm not mean enough to be shoving people on the ground or anything, but like, they just, boop. Tip, right? I could because it's so easy, because they're so unstable and what they think is that they just brace themselves for impact. And what they did was actually destabilize their internal pressure system that is intentional and ready for them to respond to an external force. So if I say to them, okay, you felt that I barely pushed you, but you just fell over like a complete pushover here. Now what I want you to do is I want you to think, don't let her push me over. Now when I lean into you, what your abdomen does is actually expand. I want you to put your hand on your side now and feel, do you feel how your, you, you came outward with your abdomen instead of drawing in and now I can't push you over. And if I can, it's like significantly harder. I have to put a lot more force into it in order to be able to like actually get them to move. I. They're so much more stable when we use, not the the cues that we've been taught, but the ones that we already have available inside of us. And it's so much more about managing the pressure between the diaphragm and the pelvic floor and then getting ecentric activity of the abdominal wall, including all the way into the back and of the pelvic floor. That ability to load is significantly more beneficial and it uses so much less energy than having tension in all of the muscles, which just, again, tension and tightness does not mean strength. It doesn't give you stability, it just gives you more tightness. And then once you have persistent tightness, then you start to develop trigger points, and then those become painful and it's like a slew of things that happen because we're trying to teach human movement. And we're doing a terrible job of it. It's the same thing. If you teach your kids to walk, you will screw up how they're developing. If you sit your kid before your kid can sit, you disrupt their ability to get themselves to a seated position and, and create that pattern. So if you're sitting kids, that kid is more likely to think that they're supposed to do a sit up.

Track 1: 45:26

Yep.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 45:27

But if you never sit a kid, they'll roll over to their side in order to get up because they know that that's an appropriate movement pattern. And when I say no, it's not like something cognitively that they know. It's, it's like deep within their innate programming of how you act, like your blueprint for how you arrive in the world. You know how to move, you know how to roll over, you know how to pick your head up when you go onto your belly, you know how to actually generate movement. And it all comes from stabilizing the diaphragm first.

Track 1: 45:55

So when I started to get into a lot of this, what it reminded me of was actually Marsh martial Arts. So I remember an instructor of mine, I was, when I first started saying, I don't wanna be just one of these people, like in pajama looking things, saying Aya, hiya. Like, why do we even say that I was snotty, really is basically it. And he said, well, I can show you immediately why we say that. I want you to throw a punch. I want you to like suck in and say the word puppy and try to punch. And I sucked in and I tried to say the word puppy, please try this if you're listening. It's awful. It feels really. Really weak. And he said, okay, and I want you to push out and I want you to say the word ha. Like how you have to, when you, you are naturally using your diaphragm and your pelvic floor again in Jiujitsu, like later on in life when I started studying jiujitsu, when you're doing some of those moves, you, you move your hips and they call it shrimping. You kind of like switch to the side to get out from underneath someone. You are not holding your breath in and doing a, a forward bend. You're not doing that. You're going to the side. You're using all your energy, you can. And that's our natural instinct. So when we start to do more functional movements or primal movements or just think, okay, how can I get out of this? How can I move like that? That's how our bodies want to move. So where I'm gonna move us is this a few things to know of, we talked a little bit about breathing and now you're bringing us to the diaphragm. I am geeking out about the diaphragm lately I talked to Dr to show on my, I know, right

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 47:31

I love Tom. He is legitimately one of the nicest humans that's on the entire planet. He is so, he is so

Track 1: 47:36

And the most intelligent and his recall is insane.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 47:40

stuff out so quickly. But the, so he and I talked about this. He was like, you know what it's like now that you've written a book, the, the number of times that I have read the studies that are in my book. I mean, you know, you've read my book and like you've revisited some things. Right? Do you know how many times I revisited those things? Like I read and reread, so Tom has written textbooks. He wrote Foot Orthoses. He did a second edition of that and Human Look Emotion. And those are both fantastic books for providers. But then he also wrote Injury Free Running, which then there's a bunch of studies in that and that's good for lay people and the number of articles that he's written and like the, the, the things that he puts out when you read something and then you reread it and then you edit it and then you get it back from your other editor and you read over it again. Like you basically just memorize these things from repetition. And he's done that so many times and he is been in practice for such a long time. He is been doing this for such a long time. His recall is amazing. He's like, yeah, in this study on this date. Like he knows the authors, he knows the date, he knows what journal it was in. It's amazing.

Track 1: 48:39

the textbooks, he's like, current, he's in it

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 48:42

Oh no, absolutely. Yeah.

Track 1: 48:43

But he was talking about diaphragm strength in relation to low back. And so I started looking at one of the devices that he suggested called The Breather that does resistance exercise for the diaphragm. And I love it. So when you taught me about the core being a soda can, the bottom, like the pelvic floor, the top is the diaphragm and both are really important. And then the 360 of the walls of the can are, you know, the, the other muscles that we use, not just that pretty, pretty strip in the middle. So I was like, okay, I'm learning how to do the side, the back, the bottom. But I did not know how to exercise my diaphragm very well

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 49:23

The resistance of that is very helpful. Yeah.

Track 1: 49:27

yes. So I, as I've started using that, I have really, really loved it. I actually became an affiliate, so, so hopefully by the time this episode releases, people will have

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 49:38

have a link that you

Track 1: 49:39

it.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 49:39

share. My only caveat with that is that that is the only time that you mouth breathe

Track 1: 49:45

Mm.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 49:46

because, and like there's, we just don't have a great way of resisting nasal breathing at this point. Right. But. It's so imperative that we are breathing through our nose and that we're getting moisture on the air as opposed to just like dry inhaling into the mouth. And it improves the function of your entire or facial system as well as respiration, as well as postural stabilization. Because when you breathe in through your nose, that actually gives you better activation of your diaphragm and you're better able to stabilize. So one of the unfortunately, but also, I dunno, I think it's just like the wounded healer archetype shows up for me quite a bit. I, I know her. I I had my seventh concussion in 2021 and I, I 10 outta 10. Don't recommend it. You should stick with zero concussions and if you're gonna have one, don't have another one. But it was a very long recovery with that. Yeah, it's just to just stay away from concussions. But I as I was able to finally start returning to activity, one of the ways that I was, that I intentionally helped my brain and then also just chose to take it as an opportunity that I could retrain, I exclusively nasal breathe when I'm working out and it is a game changer. I am significantly less winded and I have such an easier time stabilizing and being able to generate strength with having my mouth closed. Now I look like a heinous bitch when I'm working out. Because especially I. I went to visit a girlfriend and she she works out at a CrossFit gym. And so of course it was a hero workout, so it's like a 45 minute burner. I was like, oh my God. And I was like, I had my mouth shut the whole time because I, I'm not gonna do a 45 minute workout and breathe through my mouth, right. So I I did this heck of a CrossFit workout and everybody's like, great job. You're doing great. And I was like,

Track 1: 51:38

Mm-Hmm.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 51:39

and like trying to open my, my Nair more. And I'm like,

Track 1: 51:43

Yeah. Everybody listening. Just try that. Try breathing really hard.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 51:46

really hard. but Only through your nose. But It I mean, that's actually like another kind of way that you can do a little bit of resistance on the diaphragm. It's just, it's not as effective as when you literally close off like the mouthpiece that lets you intentionally inhale against it. But I, like, as I was increasing my activity, I couldn't go too far, too fast, too hard because it would create symptoms in my head. And so I needed to intentionally keep myself slower. But through the course of doing that, over a prolonged period of time, I was able to build up so much strength and I was just able to be significantly more stable. And I, I've been practicing this type of breathing and movement since I took my first DNS class in 2008 or 2009. So it's, it's been a minute that I've been practicing like this, but I was, when I switched to exclusively nasal breathing, I. During exercise. That made a huge jump in my recovery. And then also in just my overall strength and stability. So that's my caveat on The

Track 1: 52:49

on the breather. Yep. Yep. I figured Doing like, so doing it naturally with your nose.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 52:55

Mm-Hmm.

Track 1: 52:55

And then a few sessions a

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 52:57

Add a bit of resistance With the Yeah. With the devices. Helpful for sure.

Track 1: 53:01

If readers want more of that, if you haven't read James Nestor's book on breath, which I'm sure you

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 53:05

fabulous. Yeah.

Track 1: 53:06

that's, that's the reference point to go to. You're taking it exactly where I was, which is talking about breathing. So I know we breathe wrong for all kinds of reasons, posture, stress, injury. But what is fantastic about exercising your diaphragm or focusing on your breathing in that way, it can affect your life in so many

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 53:24

Yeah.

Track 1: 53:24

a daughter who is just, I, she is a powerhouse and one of the things that she really likes to do is she's part of like a junior military program called the Civil Air Patrol, and she as a female, so she started when she was 14, and she's an observer and she noticed that most of the girls could not project their voice. I mean, they had wonderful things to say but couldn't compete with. Doing commands and,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 53:57

that boisterous command. Yeah.

Track 1: 53:59

So she figured out how to breathe with her diaphragm and how to do control, how to like, get her voice to project with her diaphragm. And she's using her pelvic floor. She doesn't know it, but they call it diaphragm there. And it has been fascinating to see the doors that have opened for her. It means I have to like cringe when she's trying to call for someone and I'm really close to her'cause Wow. It's really loud.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 54:23

Wow, you're really good at that

Track 1: 54:25

Yeah. I'm like, oh, I'm encouraging you to be even more effective at command. But, but there's that, there's singing, there's breath, and there is a stress response. So you have a stress lowering response or a stress increase response if our

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 54:40

Yes. well. and so if you're doing the breathing up into your shoulders, like we were talking about the inappropriate breathing pattern where when you breathe, your chest raises towards your head. So if you're sitting up, that's your chest going up toward the ceiling. If you're laying down. Your chest actually should expand forward to backward. You should have expansion front to back as well as side to side, as well as expansion into your abdomen. When you inhale, when you exhale, a lot of people will kind of cue that closing in of the abdomen. Like think about bringing your pelvic bones closer together or draw your abdomen into your spine or any nonsense recommendations. They're all wrong because what we should do is relax on exhale, with the exception of if we are actually trying to intentionally brace and then we expand and allow for exhalation to happen, but we maintain the expansion by holding the muscles in an eccentric contraction, not a concentric contraction. Anyway, I digress. The point is that if we are breathing in that way where we have our chest rising 12 to 16 times a minute, that is a stress breath. That is the breath that people do when they're freaking out, right? What is the first thing? That everybody knows to do. When you're super freaked out about something, it's like, okay, take a breath and calm down.

Track 1: 55:53

Yes.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 55:53

even, even people who don't know anything about breathing mechanics or, you know, have never heard of the polyvagal theory, which most people haven't Dr. Steven Porges. It's, it's a, an absolute bragging right of mind that Dr. Porges and I have exchanged emails.

Track 1: 56:07

That is a bragging

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 56:08

know he and his wife. So

Track 1: 56:11

in my mind for Dr. Bo work.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 56:14

so the polyvagal theory is the, the theory that rather than this rest, digest, fight or flight kind of dichotomy of the nervous system, that the autonomic nervous system is actually split into multiple layers based upon, so poly as in multiple vagal as in your 10th cranial nerve. So the vagus nerve and it's based.

Track 1: 56:35

for rest and digest and

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 56:36

Yes, but this is dependent upon how safe you feel in your environment. So your perception of safety is crucial. If you and I are walking through the blizzardy streets of your town as opposed to the sunny, warm place where I live right now. But if we're like in a back alley and we're like right down the street from your practice and you've walked down there a million times and we're walking together, it's dark. It's it's an unfamiliar place to me and we hear a like noise of some sort. I have a completely different experience than you in that scenario because you feel safe. In that environment, because you've been there a million times, it's familiar to me. To you, you've heard that clanging. You know that that's like a cat jumping off a trashcan or whatever. Whereas I don't know what's happening. I'm in an unfamiliar place. My autonomic nervous system is going, even though we're in the same scenario, I don't feel safe in that scenario. You feel safe. My autonomic nervous system is going to have a completely different response. So typical response of the fight or flight and rest and digest. Most people can kind of wrap their heads around like, okay, if I'm calm and relaxed, then everything is fine. But you also have calm, like a, a freeze response. So some some people have heard fight, flight or freeze instead of just fight or flight. The, that is where the threat of like the threat to your life is so high that you actually immobilize. So. Immobilization is the base level of our autonomic nervous system. The next level would be mobilization. The next topper, the topper tier. That's a real word, Lindsay. Top tier would be socialization. So because, so as social creatures, the, our first line of a defense is, we're gonna try and talk about this, right? Our next line of defense is, I'm gonna fight you or run away from you. And our third line of defense is I'm an feign death. And, and, and just pretend like I'm already dead so that you don't kill me. Right? So those layers on the, that's, that's what's happening in our unsafe. So if we perceive threat, that's what we're gonna do. So in conversation the perception of threat, we might actually use more slanderous communication or manipulation and like threatening language. Whereas when we perceive safety, our first line of interaction is just social engagement and conversation and collaboration. And then our active response, the mobilization. That's where we work out. That's a stress on your system, right? That your autonomic nervous system is upregulated there and you're working out the same place that a active labor happens. That's also where you have sex. When you get to the immobilization state that's rest and digest completely, that's actually like you in a totally relaxed downregulated state. But you can only be there if you're in a perception of safety, so you could like a blissful orgasm, and you're like completely immobilized. That's totally different than you being completely immobilized due to fear.

Track 1: 59:39

Yeah.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 59:40

Your autonomic nervous system, though functions in this hierarchy, and Dr. Porges work has kind of exposed us to that. So the, the tools that are available to us to be able to downregulate our autonomic nervous system are breath, sound, and movement, and we have those available to us almost all of the time. So if you're super upregulated, you're taking those short, shallow, mouth breathing, chest breathing type of breaths. If you're not actually in threat, you are telling your brain. That you are. So you're mixing up the signals, letting your brain know, yeah, we're not actually safe here. When what you're experiencing is just like your normal breathing pattern to be like that, then you're never able to fully downregulate, rest and digest, have that immobilization in the full relaxation of your nervous system as well as your physical body because you are telling your brain, we need to upregulate because we're breathing like this, so we must have a threat. There's probably a tiger somewhere hidden and our nervous system is like on high alert. So that's what Dr. Porges were kind of like brought about the idea that it's not just rest and digest, fight or flight, but that we actually have layers of this. And so movement like getting into child's pose or doing legs up the wall, those are down regulatory positions, which I believe is probably why we see in like religions and ancient cultures kneeling. And getting into like a prayerful pose that's actually down regulatory for your nervous system. So what better, better way to like connect to divinity than to actually like quiet your own self, right? And your the other, other forms of, of movement would be like gentle stretching or like flow like movements. Those are also helpful for downregulating because you're like gracefully moving and allowing your nervous system to feel that you're calm. And then sound humming, singing those types of things, you don't do those if there's a predator, right? If you do a high pitch like, ha ha ha, well that's tightening of your vocal cords, tightening of your pelvic floor and upregulation of your nervous system. If you do a, like long, deep, low sound. That's, yeah, I'm totally safe here. I'm fine, I'm cool, calm, collected, and your autonomic nervous system can respond to that. So then your breath is easier to get out of your chest because you're downregulated. You're actually like able to be in the present moment instead of hyped up and worried about what's coming next. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk on the polyvagal theory.

Track 1: 1:02:04

I'm in, I'm so in, I actually did a TED Talk and part of what I was talking about was the hierarchy relationship. And then exercise and then nutrition movement and

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:02:14

I love it.

Track 1: 1:02:15

The first time that I learned the lesson of movement and breath was actually outside of any sort of cerebral thing. It was in a very primal thing, which I, I never get more primal than childbirth.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:02:27

Mm-Hmm.

Track 1: 1:02:28

Ima gaskin. I was reading one of her books that talked about ways that we can help ourselves get into a state of birthing where we can fill what our body needs to do. She asked me to think she, well, she asked her readers but me, I was a

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:02:42

Yeah, she was talking to you. I, ina and I have had some conversations.

Track 1: 1:02:47

so, she had me. Ima imagine a time when I heard a sound that made me feel safe and my father has passed away now and had passed away when I delivered. But I remembered his voice, which was like this, like when I'm a little girl and I'm leaning in on his chest and it has that like vibration sort of tone that low hum. So I thought, okay, I'm gonna hum when contractions start. So when a contraction would start, I would hum and I would relax my belly and my pelvic floor as she was describing it, it was a baby has a hard time coming out through something that is very tight, right? So I was relaxing my pelvic floor and I was humming. And what was funny is the first time that I did that in, it was my third pregnancy in delivery and my husband was right behind me. And when those constructions started to get really intense and my humming was not enough, I leaned back into him and I was like, I need you to hum. And

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:03:42

I need you to

Track 1: 1:03:43

I'm like, yeah, low, low hum low right now. He's like in front of everybody. I'm like, no. So funny.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:03:51

That's what, so we had, we did like low and open tones, my husband and I together, and he would like, as things were getting more intense in, in labor, I, my, my vocal cords were like getting a little higher and he'd be like,

Track 1: 1:04:04

Ooh. So in that primal place, I learned though, and the breathing exercise that you actually started with. So I, I began to learn how to do pelvic floor therapy through

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:04:15

mm-hmm.

Track 1: 1:04:16

And one of the exercises in your book, which I was gonna have you describe, but we're running outta time, so please get Lindsay's Dr. Lindsay's book and read this. But you have people start with breath first, and we're talking even high level athletes, runners, you have them, if they have pelvic floor dysfunction, stop running because that is a single leg exercise essentially. And if you don't have a, still a, if you don't have a stable pelvic floor running, single leg squatting, doing all that stuff is actually screwing you up more. You have to get into compensation patterns. You take everybody. Away from their compensation patterns for a minute and go into the breath. And when I started doing breath, the way that you talk about bringing it all the way down to my pelvic floor, and that is breath, movement and sound, because I can hear my breath. It is moving and I'm paying attention to what is happening low in my pelvis. You don't do that if you feel under threat. And, and so it's like a, a body trick. What's interesting to me is the com is the communication we have from our bodies to our brains and our brains to our bodies about our emotional state. If you have a really tight traps all the time, and we know what that feels like when we're super stressed, I mean, you can get that from posture,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:05:30

Mm-Hmm.

Track 1: 1:05:31

from stress, from habit, from tech, from all kinds of stuff. But if you are signaling that even if there's nothing on your mind, you will feel more stressed or again, to remember what you've already stated. If your pelvic floor is tight, which it can be tight because you have followed the adage of suck in and pull up, or it can be tight because how you mentioned it first time I heard you talk was it is myofascial tissue in an unfortunate place. It's a

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:05:56

It's, it's inconveniently located.

Track 1: 1:05:58

inconveniently located. That's what it was. Not unfortunate. Inconveniently located. What I didn't realize is that we can also have. Trigger points there, and we skipped it on symptoms of, of pelvic floor dysfunction. But the people that I'm learning inclu, which included myself that had a lot of trigger points in their pelvic floor, you might not know because you may have to feel internally to know that they're there, but that is muscle tissue, same as your trapezius, is muscle tissue. And if it gets injured, it can get tight, it can get trigger points, it can have scar tissue, it can do all of that. You encouraged me to go to a physical therapist that does internal work. What I've learned for readers, I mean for listeners, part of this point of the podcast is to kind of cut out the bullshit. So I'll just say, when you're trying to find a pelvic floor physical therapist, most physical therapists will say they know how to do pelvic floor because you know, they've learned rehab. But you wanna try to find somebody that will do internal work and that has certifications and skill. As long as they're professional. It's not awkward. I was stunned. I mean, I had multiple trigger points. I had multiple problems and you know, full disclosure, just because it will probably help other people. I didn't realize that I could not even feel part of the side of my

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:07:19

Mm-Hmm.

Track 1: 1:07:20

that affects sexual function. That for, for women who have a difficulty having orgasm or who can't feel well during sex or who it hurts during sex. So

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:07:30

an internal pelvic like a, a trigger point in your pelvic floor and you have sex, the activity of those muscles when they already have a trigger point in them and literally like hitting them with a penis or a toy or something, will. Create pain that is directly related to the trigger point. So that's, that's oftentimes like a a sign that you need to get some internal work done, which you can do a lot of internal work. Your on your own, you can get yourself a pelvic wand. I joke in my book just because I think it is important to know when you're searching for these things on the internet, that it just looks like a sex toy. So if you don't have, like, if you don't want your history being shared with your employer that it looks like you're just looking up sex toys. When you're at work, you're actually looking for a pelvic wand, which is going to help improve the function of your pelvic floor. But if you don't have any pain in your pelvic floor or in your pelvis until you have sex, then that probably means that you have an internal trigger point at least of some sort because you're now provoking that trigger point.

Track 1: 1:08:31

yeah, if that trigger point is bugged for long enough, our brains have this amazing ability to just turn down the volume on the pain. So what I have found with other patients also and myself was it might hurt for a bit, but then. You can't feel it like you're not in pain. But I didn't realize, I couldn't feel, when she got on a trigger point, I literally had no map of that body part. I was like, are you touching something? And she's like, yeah, so just hold on a minute. And she added more stimulation to the trigger point. And then when I could feel it, I was like, ah. Like

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:09:05

holy cow. Yeah, but your brain doesn't want you to to keep feeling that intense pain. And if you're not responding to the pain, right, because it's like, oh, it's still there and this, I still have tension here. Then your brain's like, okay, well, I guess maybe we'll just, it, I, I guess we'll stop. I don't,

Track 1: 1:09:21

Yeah.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:09:22

what else are we gonna do?

Track 1: 1:09:24

yeah, so if you're feeling unstable, if you're having problem controlling your urine or having, or bowel movements or if you're having problems with sex, it is really worth seeing an internal. A pelvic floor therapist. I was grateful that you mentioned that to me. It's not something I would've thought of before, like I want any more exams in that area, but other things that people can do. So you and I are a pelvic floor chiropractors. There isn't really a, like,

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:09:53

A label for us. Yet one of my patients was like, can I call you a pelvic floor chiropractor? I was like, you can if you want to. I don't care.

Track 1: 1:09:58

Yeah, I'm like, it's kind of hard'cause there's not like an organization that I know of that like has a central listing of people who have studied in it. But if you talk to your chiropractor and ask if they're familiar with pelvic floor, they will either know or not or know who to point you towards.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:10:15

Yes. And like chiropractic care is actually a big part of pelvic floor recovery, because if your joints are not moving well. Then your neuromuscular skeletal system in general cannot be fully functioning. And so for, to, to just do like muscular work, right? With some trigger point therapy? Well, there's joint dysfunction that goes along with muscular dysfunction. So if we have inappropriate signaling from the nerves and we have inappropriate activity from the muscles, we also have inappropriate joint movement. So whether that's too much, too little, or just kind of wonky, we need to correct those joint dysfunctions and chiropractors are the perfect, the perfect people to do that. We're also like, what I tell a lot of patients is that you. If, if you wanna make a a change, then you need to be including exercise. But if you wanna make a change in five seconds, then you need to see a chiropractor because like my follow-up visits with patients are 15 minutes long. We do a lot of manual therapy, we do a lot of exercises, we do in addition to adjustments, but like if I wanna change the neuro musculoskeletal system instantaneously, the fastest way to do that is with an adjustment because it's one of the most powerful tools in manual medicine that exists. So you have to follow that up with lifestyle changes and your home exercises and the exercises that we do in office and other, you know, soft tissue techniques, et cetera. But if we actually wanna change the system, the fastest way to change it is with an adjustment. So like, stop wasting your time and go see a chiropractor.

Track 1: 1:11:48

Yep, exactly. Two more things and the first one follows that perfectly. I also really love in your book how you talk about posture being one of the biggest things that we can do to help. So breathing and posture, those are things you wouldn't think would be the most powerful. They are

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:12:04

They are because that's what you're doing all day every day.

Track 1: 1:12:06

Exactly. So I loved how you talked about it. And that's just my little punch since we're out of time. Please get her book and read about the posture. But in general, if you're listening to this while you're driving, if you're listening to this while you're exercising, the basics would be keeping your head and jaw above your diaphragm, above your pelvic floor. And I love how you say I wrote it down. Each time you check your phone, also check your body parts. Like where is your chin, your tongue, your

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:12:31

Is your tongue resting on the roof of your mouth? Is your head resting over your body? Or when you check your phone, are you in like terrible posture in your mouth breathing and it's awful?

Track 1: 1:12:41

I watch my posture a lot. But you had a jaw exercise that I have noticed relaxes my nervous system better than almost anything else.'cause I hold a lot of tension in my jaw apparently. So I just wanted to share that really quickly. If you're out and about, if fun thing you can try, do you wanna lead them through it or do you

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:13:02

Yeah, sure. So the rest position of the mouth ought to be tongue on the roof of your mouth, like you're about to say no, or something that starts with n not pressing into the back of your upper teeth, but just resting behind them. And then your lips are together and your teeth are apart. That is how your jaw should be if you are not talking or eating. And then you're therefore, obviously going to be breathing through your nose if you want to exercise that. If you press your tongue into the roof of your mouth and you put your what we'll just say your thumb behind, just behind your chin underneath, and you press your tongue on the roof of your mouth, you feel those muscles come down into your thumb. That is your digastric muscles is what you're feeling. And so they're underneath the tongue and they actually help you draw the chin down and back. So when, if you have your tongue on the roof of your mouth and you press your tongue into the roof of your mouth. That will actually stimulate the opening of your jaw. So when you open, then you can take your hand away from your mouth if you want to, but you wanna feel those muscles that you just activated come on, and you open your mouth with your tongue on the roof of your mouth still, and then close. It's hard to describe while I'm doing the exercise, but you open with your tongue on the roof of your mouth. That helps to strengthen and also helps to improve the glide of your temporomandibular joint. So a lot of people are suffering with TMJ dysfunction and one of the easiest ways to, to help improve that is simply by noting that if you open your mouth correctly, it should function well. Most people do not have damage to the tempera mandibular joint, but they have clicking, they have cracking, they have sounds, they have pain that come whenever they open their mouth or they open too wide or whatever. And if they retrain that they actually. Bring their jaw down and back, instead of jutting it out to the side or jutting it forward. By training those muscles, then they can improve the function of their TMJ. And when you improve the function of the TMJ, just like the, our whole body is a closed kinematic system. So if I can just, you know, finish us off here because I know we're over time already, but the whole body is a closed system and anything that you do in one part of the body will affect other parts of the body, if not just the entirety of the rest of the body. So this closed kinematic system, if you have parts that are not functioning well, you will have other parts that are not functioning well in addition to that. So what I say in the book, I give the exercises and I just tell people I want you to focus for three weeks on your most dysfunctional dysfunction. So ask yourself realistically, if you were to triage, what is the biggest problem that I have? Is it my posture? Is it my breathing? Is it the tension that I'm holding? Is it that I have completely dysfunctional feet? Is it that I have a dysfunctional jaw? Is it that my nutrition is completely off? Is it that I have absolutely no hope in myself because I feel like I've tried everything? Whatever. Like your most dysfunctional dysfunction, focus on that for three weeks. You'll find improvements in your pelvic floor because if you affect one part of the system, you'll affect other parts of the system. That doesn't mean that in three weeks you're gonna be cured of whatever ails you, right? But it means that you have made intentional improvement into your neuro musculoskeletal system, and it is a closed kinematic system. When you make improvements in the system, it has downstream effects that will make improvements elsewhere. And the pelvic floor is just one part of this whole body system, which is why if you're working with pelvic floor dysfunction, you have to address breathing, you have to address posture, you have to address nutrition, you have to address the care team, you have to address the trigger points, you have to address everything because everything is everything. Nothing comes from nothing. It's all just transmutation of energy throughout the body. And if we're able to affect one part of the system will affect other parts of the system. So if you're affecting one part of the system negatively, you'll affect the rest of the system negatively. If you impact and affect one part of the system positively, you will impact and affect the system positively in other places.

Track 1: 1:16:55

Yep. How we hold our jaw affects how we hold our head. Head affects our jaw. Jaw and head. Affect Our neck. Neck and shoulders. Affect our diaphragm. Diaphragm affects our pelvic floor. Pelvic floor. I mean, feet affect our pelvic. Everything affects everything so the most. So when you can do something for some area, you're helping everything. But if I could pick top areas to give some focus to, pelvic floor would be one. So I'm so grateful for your work. I'm so grateful for what you've done. Thank you for your time and your expertise. And also just thanks for being cool while you're

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:17:27

Hey, thanks.

Track 1: 1:17:27

that time and expertise.

lindsay-mumma--dc--dnsp_2_02-08-2024_123612: 1:17:29

I'm so glad to know you and I, I appreciate the conversation, so thank you for inviting me.

Track 1: 1:17:34

Until next time.

1:17:41

​It is just so great to talk to her again, and I am so pleased that you got to sit in on the conversation. Or for anyone patients or friends that has asked me questions about it, that then I could ask Lindsey, I'm grateful for that experience. So takeaways would be number one. It is not normal to pee your pants just a little after you have a baby, or when you get older or after an injury, it is common. Yes, but not normal. This is muscle tissue. It can get injured like any other muscle tissue. And if it is not doing its job of holding up your bladder, And of handling the different stresses that that could mean like jumping, bouncing, or having a full bladder than it is a sign of dysfunction. If you're having any urinary leakage and there are things that you can do to help. Number two, key goals are not the answer for all pelvic floor health. In fact, if the muscle has trigger points or spasms, it can be the worst thing to tighten them further over and over at every stoplight. Like so many of us have been told so many times stop doing that. Stop doing that until you know what the problem is. And lastly, our pelvic floor affects our breathing. And our breathing affects everything. Our pelvic floor affects our posture, including our jaw, which affects everything. It affects our stability and it affects our felt sense of safety, which surprise affects everything. For further information on rehab or a deeper dive in what pelvic floor. Or a deeper dive into pelvic floor anatomy and healing. You can look at Dr. Munez book, it's called your pelvic floor sucks, but it doesn't have to. And I put a link for that in the show notes. If you are in Southern Utah, you can come find me Dr. Becca Whitaker. If you are in North Carolina, you can find Dr. Muma. And if you want resources for it, anywhere else in the country. I would look up pelvic floor specialists, physical therapists that have a pelvic floor specialist. Delineation in fact, one way to make sure that they really know their pelvic floor stuff is that when you are asking questions of the physical therapist, lots of them say they do pelvic floor rehab because they do, but ones that really know their stuff actually do know how to do internal work, which sounds awful, but actually is so helpful. So those are some resources you as well as any chiropractors that have continuing education experience in functional movements and pelvic floor rehab. And you should be able to tell that when you call them or look at their websites, but if you have any questions, please feel free to message me on the socials. You can just direct message me at Dr. Becca Whitaker. For our next episode, I am so happy to bring back William DeMille. So, if you haven't listened to the previous episode, head back to season one, episode 13, in that we talk about agriculture, healthy soil regenerative gardening and how to get healthier food. He is so well studied on the subject from many different schools of thought about how we can care for the earth better and protect its soil and build it up so that it can begin to give back to us. We talked about climate change and how we can help that. And we talked about what actually happens in the soil or with the roots of the plants that are in healthy soil that affect the nutritional content of our food and also affect the taste and the pest resistance. All kinds of fantastic stuff. So if you haven't listened to that and you're interested head back to episode 13, but this is part two, which I saved until it was a little bit closer to the time when people are thinking about putting in their gardens. This episode is all about how to actually grow the good food. How to create the soil that is healthy and functioning and has all the really great microorganisms in them. We go over steps. You will need what you will need to buy, what you will need to not buy what common gardening, traditional methods there are that you should avoid, like the plague. And what can actually help. So if you are even a little bit interested in growing some food, whether that be in a pot in your backyard or in a big field, please tune in next week, you will be happy. You spent the time for William DeMille. And I'll meet you there. Bye.